AAAWWWW, These children tug at my heartstrings. These children could bring so much joy to someone. Even though they have DS, they are still functional. Why should they be aborted?

It is so frustrating that OB's looked at the women who weren't aborting (younger women)and decided "Hey, let's get them in on this baby killing action too!".

DS syndrome children are wonderful and caring.

...I remember when I was a kid, you use to see DS kids around alot (my brother worked at a home to assist DS adults), and now today you hardly see any. It's sad.

jasper,That's true.

When I was in high school I babysat for a family that had a DS daughter, Amy. She was beautiful. She loved to give hugs and wanted to "snuggle" all the time. She could not lie. She could not steal. These idea's were so foreign to her she couldn't even comprehend the meaning behind the actions. She knew how to throw a temper tantrum, but always felt bad afterward.

When her Mother got pregnant with their 3rd child, (Amy was the 2nd) she was advised to abort. Now this was in the mid 1980's, testing was either not available, or not reliable (I can't remember which). The possiblity of having a 2nd DS child is good. This mother considered it, and went to my Mom for advice. She knew my Mom was Pro-Life. My Mom asked her if she regretted having Amy. She said no, and was almost offended. My Mom then said, and I will always remember this, "then what is your problem?" There wasn't a problem. Amy was a blessing, not a curse.

Amy's Mom went into labor. I was watching the other two kids while they were in the hospital. Their 3rd daughter was born, without DS. Amy's mom almost sounded disappointed when she told me that.

Why would a mother be disappointed that her child *didn't* have DS? That makes no sense, or did I read your post wrong?

that's a nice story Valerie, kudos to your mom.

"Why would a mother be disappointed that her child *didn't* have DS? That makes no sense, or did I read your post wrong?"

midnight, I don't think you would understand......

You know something Jasper, I am not stupid, I (gasp) have a brain. I simply asked a question, and it wasnt direceted towards you anyways. I am being respectful and curteous, unlike you.

(and it is midnite, not midnight)

Jasper,

I mean, it's great that she went through with the pregnancy regardless of the risk. Not many people could do that, you know? Not many people have that kind of patience. I know I don't.

But I see her point. If I was a mother and my child had a risk of being born with DS, I'd be relieved that they didn't. I'd be glad that they were perfectly healthy.

midnite678,

I know you have a brain and are problably very smart. But do you have compassion for life?

Lauren, How right you are. I gave birth to my daughter on 4-19-07. I was "assured" by one of my female OBGYN s that I could always have an abortion if my child wasn't healthy. I think the look I gave her spoke volumes. I found another doctor.

I went through this yesterday with MK. Yes, Jasper, I do have compassion for life. I have empathy & a conscience as well. But unfortunately for any of you on this site you'll never get to that side of me b/c you dont know me.

As I explained yesterday I have helped a friend through an abortion and another friend thrugh a pregnancy. My best friend's mother forced her to have an abortion & I went with her, held her hand, and cried with her afterwards about her baby she never got to know. My other friend has a beautiful three year old daughter and I am her godmother, and I spoil her rotten. Her mother is a highschool drop out who lives paycheck to paycheck. I help buy my goddaughter's clothes, food, daycare etc., b/c her mother can not do it by her self. Now then those are only two examples of the side of me none of y'all will ever get to see, and that is *truely* a shame for you.

midnite678,

Thats great, you seem like a nice person. I'm looking forward to you coming over to the pro-life side.

God-Bless

C'mon over midnite. We don't bite. You do seem nice. Are you from the south?

My best friend's mother forced her to have an abortion & I went with her, held her hand, and cried with her afterwards about her baby she never got to know.

Now that is really sad. This is one thing we've been trying to explain, that it's not always about girl's choice.

Parents forcing their children to have abortions is actually pretty common. Not just parents but also boyfriends too.

Parents should not be able to force their children to have abortions, just as babies should not be forced to give up their lives.

I hope that your friend will still be able to have a baby again one day.

I don't know how recent this was, but if you ever want to recommend a book for her, this book that really helped me after my miscarriage...it's "I'll hold you in Heaven". This book was tremendously comforting to me as I grieved the loss of my unborn baby. It may help her too.

Yes I am from the south; born & raised in B'ham Alabama. And I am a very nice compasionte person as long as people give me the same respect (and dont personaly attack me).

Howdy, Neighbor! :) I'm from Alabama too.

Yes, Miss Midnite, I'm looking for a new Conversion Story to post. Come to the light!

My great-uncle was born in the 1950's with Down's Syndrome...when he was a baby he was small enough to sleep in a shoebox (my great-grandparents were too poor for a crib because my great-grandfather was a low-life, abusive, alcoholic scumbag).

He's still around, though he's gone downhill the last few years with heart problems and dementia, but he is very old for somebody with Down's Syndrome. He doesn't remember me anymore but he still likes his horses and Chicago Cubs. :)

Most of my family lives in Alabama.

Bethany, I checked out the book you posted about. I'll bet it was good. The title brings tears to my eyes. I'd love to order it and read it myself.

Miss Rae, you're another conversion candidate, getting closer by the day. How about it?

Rae, He has good taste. The Cubs are a great team.

@Jill: I'm sorry, but I'm not planning to convert anytime soon. :)

@Heather4life: It's a shame the Cubs never win...I'm personally a Twin(kies) fan. :D Joe Mauer is a hottie. ^_^

My mother tells me my great-aunt gave birth to a boy with Down's syndrome. He died really young, long before I was ever thought of.

And I have a friend who's niece (sp?) has it as well. She shows me countless pictures every time we hang out. Kid's cute and whatnot, but I'm not big on baby pictures.

Rae,You make me laugh with the beginning of your post. You remind me of myself sometimes.

@Heather4life: How so?

Bethany, where are you from in Bama. As I said I am in the Ham, but I commute from there to the Gulf Shores/Foley area (where my family lives). We own a resturant in Gulf Shores, so I am down that way frequently.

Rae is not converting "anytime soon." Ah, an open door, I'll take it... :)

The post about your great grandfather. There are times I sound like that on the phone, I'm told.

I live in Cullman... we go to Birmingham every once in a while for garage sales (I love yardsaling!). Also there's an art store I like there.

Midnite,Do you know where Athens and Ardmore are?

@Heather4life: You sound like a low-life, alcoholic scumbag on the phone? O_o

My great-grandfather was NOT a nice man, he was manipulative as all get out, right up till the day he died (and I think he lived so long just to spite people).

No Rae. I meant that I can sound that same way describing someone too.

Rae: It's because you're nice. They think all pro-choicers are mean and angry and hate people and especially babies. If you actually seem like a nice person, they automatically assume that you will be pro-life. ;) You know, because nice people can't think that maybe they don't have the ability to judge every woman's situation.

@Heather4life: Ooooh, I see. Sorry, I misinterpreted what you said. ^_^*

I pass through Cullman going to the lake all the time (my boyfriend is a fishing nut).

I've heard of Athens & Ardmore, but I am not exactly sure where they are at. What major city/town or what county is it in?

Why would a mother be disappointed that her child *didn't* have DS? That makes no sense, or did I read your post wrong?

Posted by: midnite678 at May 9, 2007 03:08 PM

I should have explained better. She was told by so many people and so many professionals that the chances of having another DS child was very high. So in her mind she was all prepared to have another one. She was happy that the baby didn't have it, but she was just so prepared.

Well, I'm pretty sure it's close to Tennessee. My mother lives in TN. and all of our relatives on her side live in TN and Alabama.

Lynn -

What the reason for all the hostility?

Is the Space Center still there?

I live in Tennessee...

No kidding Heather B. It's a really pretty state.

Yeah, it is. I wasn't too fond of it when I first moved here, though.

Valerie:
Sarcasm and joking don't count as hostility when MK does it. ;)

Ah. I dont travel north that often, except to the lake in cullman (i can never remember which one it is), I am always going or east or west (beaches, atlanta or new orleans). And I am pretty sure the Space center is still there. Took a field trip there once in Elementary school, and I

Heather B. - East, West, or Middle?

And Valerie:

Thank you for explaining it to me with more detail. What you are saying makes perfect sense now. Sorry, I got kind of confused for a second there.

Lynn,

I live in Middle Tennessee (Cookeville...or Cookevegas...to be exact).

haha, I'm East, Cleveland (or Clevegas, actually, people are really original with these things ;)) I had a cool friend that lived in Cookeville that's at Northwestern now and one girl that transferred to my high school from Cookeville and new the girl that I knew. Very small world :)

Lynn,even smaller. WE are neighbors!!!

Lynn,

Coolness. It really is a small world.

And now I have that stupid song stuck in my head. You know, that was always my least favorite ride at Disneyland?

Lynn, I just remembered that there is a Cleveland TN. I am in OH.

Have you guys seen MommyLife's A Mother's Day Celebration of our children with Down syndrome?

Thanks for the link Michelle. Awesome! Gonna check it out.

I have relatives that live in OH, used to live in Cleveland, OH but now they are in Columbus. Apparently there is a Cleveland in 48 states :) (and I am going to school in Georgia which also has a Cleveland in it of course, but I come home a lot to visit my mom (usually she's in the hospital) and my sis and brother.

HeatherB: I didn't ever get to go to Disneyworld! ::pout:: haha, When my bro was little, my mom promised him he could go to Disneyworld when he was five, but I was born when he was 3 and a half. Then she promised him we would go to Disneyworld when I was five, but my lil sis was born when I was 3 and a half. Then by the time my little sister was five my brother wasn't interested in going to Disneyworld anymore, but he still jokes about blaming it on us young ones. :)

Still a small world.

My parents never took me to DisneyWorld *tear*, I went in 8th grade with my friend and her family. They took pity on me and invited me to come along with them.

I've never been to DisneyWorld either

I have been to TN plenty of times, though :-)

PP has an unhealthy concept of pregnancy, as it views the state of gestation as an abnormal condition or disease. Speaking for the organization, Dr. Warren Hern refers to human pregnancy as "an episodic, moderately extended chronic condition ... May be defined as an illness ... Treated by evacuation of the uterine contents..."("Is Pregnancy Really Normal?" Family Planning Perspective, Planned Parenthood, vol. 3, No. 1, Jan. 1971,

I thought the girls from the pro-choice side said that they came up with this idea all by themselves...you know, free thinkers, no outside influences...

Coincidence? I don't thiiiiiiink so. Maybe subliminal advertising. They just didn't realize they were quoting PP...

MK don't you directly follow Catholic teachings? Who are you to tell us we are "indoctrinated"

And how many pro-choice women have told you pregnancy is a disease?

I never said I viewed pregnancy as a disease...I view it as a medical condition that a woman's body endures/undergoes.

And I live in Pennsylvania....kind of a small world, I suppose. :)
I've never been to Disney World, either...and I'm 19. *sigh*

Ok, I'm set for the night. Bought Queen's greatest hits this afternoon.

I LOVE DISNEYWORLD. What I love about it is the incredible attention to detail, the professionalism, the excellence. The rides never break down. There is never gum on the sidewalk. Every employee treats you like royalty. I cannot believe what these people have thought through.

And they serve frozen margaritas in Epcot. Different flavors. Kiwi even.

Jill,

Yes, Disney world is alot of fun. Did you stay in the park or outside? I plan on taking my sons next year.

So what would you all do about this--let me guess, you'd have the government force women to bear disabled children?

In the park. There are family priced resorts now ($85-115/night): Pop Century and All Star Sports, Music, or Movies. I personally wouldn't stay outside. Not worth the hassle and few bucks you might save. You lose all that in time and perks....

If you stay at a Disney resort, you get airport pick-up and luggage drop-off in your room free; the interpark transportation is top-notch; and every day one resort opens an hour early and stays open 2-3 hours late that only resort guests can take advantage of.

Plus the resorts themselves are Disney all the way in every way. Very cool for kids and adults alike.

Smoggy, are you promoting eugenics again?

Eugenics by personal parental choice, yes, without apology.

"Eugenics by personal parental choice, yes, without apology."

SMOG, Adolf would've been proud of you!

You need a history lesson, jasper.

Thank you for explaining it to me with more detail. What you are saying makes perfect sense now. Sorry, I got kind of confused for a second there.

Posted by: midnite678 at May 9, 2007 04:42 PM

uh,oh! My ability to be easily confused in getting contagious!

Pretty soon, people will be confused for longer than a second! It will be anarchy!

HIC!

"I thought the girls from the pro-choice side said that they came up with this idea all by themselves...you know, free thinkers, no outside influences...

Coincidence? I don't thiiiiiiink so. Maybe subliminal advertising. They just didn't realize they were quoting PP..."

@MK: I've never read that before...but i've never considered pregnancy to be a disease, a temporary condition that could lead to life long complications yes, but not a disease. But this is due to the "germ paradigm" that foreign thingies like bacteria, viruses and fungi cause diseases...not fetuses (though mirror syndrome can cause disease-like symptoms...but even then it's not a disease). Anyway... :)

By a patient of Tiller the baby killer:

read-this one:

http://www.tillerpatientspeaks.homestead.com/baby.html

SoMG:
"So what would you all do about this--let me guess, you'd have the government force women to bear disabled children?"

I can't see how that should seem such a remarkable ethical leap for someone who doesn't mind allowing women to kill abled ones.

Midnight:

As noble and compassionate as what you did for your "friend" sounds, accompaning someone while they committed murder is never justifiable. That's not compassion, that enabling one to commit murder. There's never any justification for murdering an innocent child in the womb.

A true "friend" would have stood up for the defenseless baby and not budged, and least of all not helped in any way with the extermination of a child. What you accomplished was to place the blood of the baby on your hands as well. And tears don't mean a thing. That's worldy sorrow, not godly sorrow.

Let none be deceived. Now that's the truth.

leave it to the times to only tell half the story, which is that the abortion rate for children with a cleft palate, an entirely correctable problem, is sky high as well. we wondered when we watched Gattaca if there would ever be such an America: with designer babies and genetic perfection as the only babies allowed to be born. and we're there. this is what that world looks like, perhaps we should start referring to "God babies" as those who aren't tweaked for perfection but endowed by their creator with all the little problems that we once considered normal.

Choosing to have a child with severe mental and physical problems is a moral atrocity. There's no way to get around the fact that Down syndrome causes suffering in everyone involved, especially the child. The parents who support bringing more people burdened with this illness into the world only want to extend their and their children's suffering to everyone else. They should be named for what they are - evil.

Every child should be loved and valued - but a fetus is not a child until he or she is born - and what kind of perverted monster do you have to be to want children to suffer their entire life? Only the religious dogma behind the hypocritical "culture of life" is capable of sinking people to this level.

I worked for several years with special children, several with Down Syndrome. I can also, however, understand why in certain conditions, abortion could be the best option. Medical expenses for special children can be phenomenally high, and for a young couple or a single mother who can support a child without disabilities, it could simply be too much of a financial drain for them to handle. I know that the parents of Dana, a wonderful little girl with DS, aborted their first child when it was diagnosed with DS, because they did not have the financial means to give the child the medical care it would need it's entire life. After they had more money together and had risen in their respective lines of work, they concieved another child, also who ended up having DS, and were able to care for her wonderfully. I don't think that it is so much an issue of not wanting a special child in many occasions- it's that the parents do not have the financial or home situation ready to support such a child, and they realize that that is something necessary before they can effectively raise him or her.

But I definitely share the love for special kids. They're so incredibly sweet.

Heroic - judging a woman for choosing to give birth to a mentally or physically disabled child is just as bad as judging her for having an abortion. Its not a black and white issue of "Its wrong to have an abortion" OR "its wrong to knowingly give birth to a disabled child". In reality, it comes down to a pregnant woman - an INDIVIDUAL, not a statistic. Her life, her circumstances, and her beliefs should dictate her choice - not what someone else thinks of her or her pregnancy.

And to everyone else - the decrease in Sped programs has nothing whatsoever to do with lack of disabled children, but rather that their parents have been lobbying for full inclusion in schools for decades and have finally started to succeed. There is less need for programs when so many kids end up functioning well in the normal school system.

That picture reminds me of my old gymnastics days. Oh...good times.

I'll say one thing. You have to be a very special person to care for a child with any sort of special need. I really must say that I admire those folks.

Alyssa, I go to PA often. I have a good friend there.

His Man,you are so right.

Hisman: I think you might be forgetting the part of the story where the mother was forcing the girl to do it. I don't know about you, but I think that *Midnite's call as a human being was to provide compassionate support to her friend, who did not want to get an abortion. I'm not sure what the girl's mom would have done to her if she had not gotten an abortion, thrown her out on the street, threatened to not pay for college, who knows, but the girl obviously felt that she could not disobey her mother's wishes. As a pro-choicer this story makes me extremely upset because the woman was *forced* to do this. Midnite did everything she could for a woman in a terribly difficult situation. The fact that you have absolutely no compassion for this woman, and think that Midnite should have further injured her by telling her she absolutely couldn't get an abortion that she was forced to have/not be the shoulder for this poor woman to cry on is really sad. But you're always right and always know what is best and moral in every situation, huh? Jesus Christ love the biggest sinners, the people that the rest of society shunned. Do you think you are acting like Jesus Christ? Or the people who wouldn't show any compassion to someone who had made mistakes.

Why do people who don't believe in God/Jesus use Him so often to further their arguments?

There is a difference between being a shoulder to cry on and actually abetting the deed.

Why do people who don't believe in God/Jesus use Him so often to further their arguments?

It is pretty ironic, isn't it?

Good morning breafast clubbers!

Choosing to have a child with severe mental and physical problems is a moral atrocity. There's no way to get around the fact that Down syndrome causes suffering in everyone involved, especially the child. The parents who support bringing more people burdened with this illness into the world only want to extend their and their children's suffering to everyone else. They should be named for what they are - evil.
Every child should be loved and valued - but a fetus is not a child until he or she is born - and what kind of perverted monster do you have to be to want children to suffer their entire life? Only the religious dogma behind the hypocritical "culture of life" is capable of sinking people to this level.

If it's perverted and horrible and disgusting to want to keep your child alive who has a disease, then why would it therefore not also be "merciful" to kill born children with diseases? Suppose the mother did not know the child was disabled until birth? Should she kill her newborn infant to spare it a life of suffering?

Good morning, Heather!

Or also, suppose the child was perfectly normal at birth, and had a wonderful, normal life until one tragic day, at the age of 7, the child is in a car accident, and becomes severly disabled, needing 24/7 care.

Would it be more merciful to kill the child then, "heroiclife"?

A lot of people who don't believe in Jesus as deity still believed he actually existed, but merely as a man who did good things.

What if you had an adult son, and he was involved in a car accident that left him brain damaged? What would you suggest we do? Is he any less of a person now? We don't know what life will throw our way. When are our rights as human beings terminated? I don't think that stabbing a child at the base of his skull, and sucking his brains out is ever the answer. How about the Digoxin injection into the child's heart? It's killing!

Off topic a little. here is a Rush limbaugh parody of pro-abort John Edwards singing "I am woman"

Funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE-8csu7-bk

As a pro-choicer this story makes me extremely upset because the woman was *forced* to do this.

Are you and other pro-choicers angry enough about the fact that this happens, that you would be willing to fight it, by finding a way to make it less easy for parents, boyfriends, rapists, to force women to abort their children? Or are you satisfied with the system as it is, and figure a few here and there being forced to abort is tolerable?

BTW, Those children that were victims of PBA did feel pain!

MK: Have I ever told you that I don't believe in God/Jesus? Thank you for automatically assuming that just because I am pro-choice I don't believe in God.

And even if I did not, it wouldn't matter, would it? If you are claiming to be a Christian, and you are acting contrary to the teachings of Christ, while claiming to be acting correctly, isn't that a problem?

And in this case "abetting" was being her shoulder to cry on, so that she didn't have to go through a terrible experience (being forced into abortion) alone.

Lynn, 7:05a, actually stumbled on a pro-life point, in error, I'm sure: "I think you might be forgetting the part of the story where the mother was forcing the girl to do it. I don't know about you, but I think that *Midnite's call as a human being was to provide compassionate support to her friend, who did not want to get an abortion."

Here is how Midnite put it (3:40p): "My best friend's mother forced her to have an abortion & I went with her, held her hand, and cried with her afterwards about her baby she never got to know."

Actually, if Midnite were truly pro-"CHOICE," she would have helped her friend make the choice she wanted to make, which was NOT abortion.

In actuality, Midnite became part of the pro-ABORTION coercion. She helped her friend's mother force her friend to get an abortion.

HisMan is right. Midnite now has blood on her hands. And she was no friend to that poor girl.

Jasper, 9:45p: That was a horrifying story. I've written to the mother to ask her for an update and permission to post. Thanks for the link.

Clearly, her friend's mother was not allowing her friend to make a choice-thus the word force-so midnite was just being a really good friend in offering to hold her friend's hand while she was forced to do something against her will.

Bethany: Women get forced into keeping pregnancies as well, and of course there is no way for me to legislate that. However, I think that part of discussion before any woman's abortion should be to make sure that it is her choice to abort. I don't know how much currently happens by way of counseling/etc, in this respect, but I would be for it being a requirement that prior to an abortion, a counselor speaks with the woman to make sure it is her choice and not a forced matter. Of course, I don't know how to legislate for the outside pressures that might force women to abort. Like, I don't know if the woman's mother in the story would throw her out on the street and no longer support her if she didn't abort the baby. Or I don't know if say, someone's boyfriend might smack them around/try and toss them down stairs to do it himself if they don't get an abortion. I can't legislate the evils and bigotry of the people around women that I think are the main cause of forced abortions/pregnancies. And I don't think that most efforts to prevent forced abortions could correct or adjust those outside influences.

Jill: You have absolutely no idea what the girl was going through. Her mother could have been threatening to toss her out on the street. Midnite and her friend probably discussed every possible option, whether or not there was any way she could change her mother's mind, what she would do if she kept the baby and got thrown out of her house before she was even 18. The teenage woman didn't want an abortion, but she made the decision to get one, instead of whatever consequence her mother would have for her for not doing it. In a way it was her "choice," not her free choice, a coerced, and pressured choice, but she obviously chose that over whatever the consequences would be if she kept her pregnancy. Midnite was not involved in any pro-abortion conspiracy bull-hockey. She was a teen girl trying to stand by another teen girl in a terrible situation, who was forced to make a difficult choice between doing something she felt terrible doing, and whatever her mom was going to do to her. I think, hopefully, that we can all agree in this story that the mother who would not support the daughter's decision to keep her pregnancy is the true bad guy in this situation. And you all jumping on Midnite for doing the best she could do are really sad.

Heroiclife:

"Choosing to have a child with severe mental and physical problems is a moral atrocity....The parents....should be named for what they are - evil."

Please cite some adult Downs Syndrome persons who support this notion. Alternatively, confess the utterly ill-informed character of your gratuitous idiocy -- along with the risible irony of your username -- and be on your way.

Lynn,

If you are claiming to be a Christian, and you are acting contrary to the teachings of Christ, while claiming to be acting correctly, isn't that a problem?

Very much so. That's why if you are pro-abortion/choice we must assume that you are either A: not a Christian and therefore not held to it's higher standards.
or B: A Christian that is acting contrarty to the teachings of Christ while claiming to be acting correctly, which is a problem.

Either way midnite did not only hold her hand she went with her. This is akin to driving the "getaway" car in a robbery. Aiding and abetting.

My best friend's mother forced her to have an abortion & I went with her

And while I am sure that in midnites mind she believed she was showing compassion (and indeed by her concern she was) she was also contributing, albeit passively, to the death of another human being.

In the Catholic church this is considered reason enough for excommunication. Not assuming you are or aren't Catholic, just showing you that I am not alone in my opinion. I have the church behind me.

I myself have "comforted" many a girl after an abortion but have yet to accompany one to obtain one.

Jill: You have absolutely no idea what the girl was going through. Her mother could have been threatening to toss her out on the street.

So....forcing her to have an abortion actually is the solution then?

I don't know how much currently happens by way of counseling/etc, in this respect, but I would be for it being a requirement that prior to an abortion, a counselor speaks with the woman to make sure it is her choice and not a forced matter.

See, now this would be a step in the right direction. If the counselor was truly concerned and was not trying to make a sale.
But just stating that it would be good is not going to help anything....since you're an advocate for pro-choice, an activist, you should make an effort to see that this comes to pass, just as you would make efforts to see that other legislation for pro-choice efforts come to pass. Fight against women being forced (or coerced, just as bad) to have abortions.

On another note,
Wasn't that girls mother simply exercising her right to choice? She was after all the mother of a minor, and as such is in a position to make "choices" for her.

And exactly how did she "force" her to have an abortion. It would appear that the mother did not accompany the girl to the clinic or else mindnites presence would not have been required...perhaps you mean the girl "felt" forced...as in, she had no choice. You guys often throw the word "force" around as in: Nobody has the right to "force" me to carry a parasite in my body against my will.

While you would consider criminal status being placed on abortion as force, I would not. No one forced that girl to get pregnant, and I sincerely doubt that anyone "forced" her to have an abortion.

Lynn, I find it interesting you are now defending forced abortions.

This is 2007 America. The pro-life community, the Christian community, and even governmental social services agencies have bent over backwards to remove any obstacle to having a baby in a crisis situation, to care for that baby afterward, and to complete one's education if the mother doesn't want to place him/her for adoption.

You also said, "Or I don't know if say, someone's boyfriend might smack them around/try and toss them down stairs to do it himself if they don't get an abortion."

So you promote a woman aborting in order to stay in an abusive relationship? It's incredible what pro-aborts will say to defend abortion.

So you promote a woman aborting in order to stay in an abusive relationship? It's incredible what pro-aborts will say to defend abortion.

Isn't it though?

You ought to tell the abused woman get out of her relationship.

Beth: I will certainly see what measures are currently in place at clinics by way of counseling/determining it is the woman's choice. If they are not sufficient, I will advocate changes. :)

MK: I believe in God. I am not a Christian, in that I don't believe that Jesus Christ was a deity. I do believe, however, that he was one of God's prophets on Earth and was directed by God to provide an example of how he wanted his people to live and treat each other. Therefore, my usage of the Bible is not as absolute fact and God's completely unadulterated word, because I think that men altered and shaped it. Aside from the fact that I have never seen a scripture that says that killing a fetus is equal to killing a person. I certainly don't think that the God supports the killing of fetuses, but I think that it is not a sin on equal level with murder. And, there are many people who are personally pro-life and politically pro-choice, because they do not believe that their religious morality should legislate for others. And no, I am not a Catholic. I was raised in a Methodist household, however, my views are of course different from Methodism today, but that was the shaping force for my religious beliefs as a child.

Lynn,

I've never seen a scripture passage that says killing a midget is wrong either. But I'm pretty sure it is.

Never seen one that says sticking pencils in someones nose is forbidden, or cracking someones skull open with a frying pan is not allowed.

Some things are just understood. If every single form of murder had to be listed in the bible for people to understand that it shouldn't be done, nobody would have been able to get through the entire book.

Murder is wrong. It's elementary, Watson.

This is the most infuriating group of people I have ever spoken to in my life.

Jill: No, I do not condone abuse. No, I do not want women to stay in abusive relationships. I volunteer at a domestic violence center helping women get out of abusive relationships. This does not mean, however, that I don't recognize that there are probably women out there stuck between a rock and a hard place. Women who are in abusive relationships and haven't figured out how to get out yet or haven't gone to seek help yet, and are in a terrible relationship where if they don't get an abortion their husband/bf is going to beat them until they do what he says. I am saying that I *understand* why these women might choose to get an abortion in that situation, for fear of their abusive relationship. I don't want them to get forced abortions, and I don't want them to stay in an abusive relationship. I would love for them to be able to find help at a shelter like the one I work at, but a lot of women are scared, and a lot of them have reason to be, because their exes come and hunt them down when they run away.

Heather: I do tell abused women to get out of their relationships. In fact, I help them have safe places with secret addresses so that they can get out of their abusive relationships. Jill just had fun twisting what I said to make it seem like A) I condone forced abortions and B) I want women to go and get abortions and stay in abusive relationships.

All I said was that I know that there are reasons why women are coerced into abortions that it would be very difficult for people at clinics to assist in. A woman who is beaten and abused by her significant other probably isn't going to tell people at the clinic about it. These women are afraid of what their spouses can do, or how much worse it can be for them if they leave and then are forced back into the relationship. I think that this is a terrible reason to get an abortion. I think staying in abusive relationships is terrible and sad, and I would love to help women in these positions, and I DO.

MK: No, a mother does not have the right to violate her daughter's bodily integrity. A mother doesn't have the right to kill her daughter, removing her right to live. She doesn't have the right to take away her daughter's bodily integrity. And, you can think what you will about the young girl in the situation she was in. And then we won't have this argument anymore, will we? The girl wasn't forced at gunpoint, but it was not free choice. If I tell someone that they will be on the street, pregnant and alone at 16, that's almost like holding a gun to their head. But we'll just say it was the girl's free choice, and then Midnite was supporting her free choice and no one is supporting forced abortion, and we can pretend like everyone was happy and had stars and rainbows. (oh, and the girl was just a big ol' sinner for having sex, too)

[quote]No, a mother does not have the right to violate her daughter's bodily integrity.[bold] A mother doesn't have the right to kill her daughter, removing her right to live.[/bold] She doesn't have the right to take away her daughter's bodily integrity[/quote]

Lynn...this is EXACTLY what happens in an abortion.

MK: Are you implying that a midget isn't the same as any other born person? The point is that in scripture, there are verses where fetuses are not treated equally with born humans and are specifically mentioned as such. Thou shalt not murder applies only to persons with souls. A midget is a born person with a soul, just a born person with a soul who has stunted growth. We can argue about ensoulment, but it is obvious that ensoulment cannot happen at conception. When, then, does ensoulment occur? God breathed life/soul into Adam after forming and shaping him, does that mean that possibly ensoulment happens after we are formed and take first breath? (do identical twins, who start out as one conceptus, get a "split" soul? Do chimeras, the joining of two separate conceptuses that become one person with different DNA in parts of their body have 2 souls?)

And God ordered his people to rip up women with child in the lands of their enemies, it would seem as if the innocent fetii should not be forced to succumb to God's wrath if killing them is really so bad.

Murder is murder - but it's only murder if the being being killed has a soul.

Lauren: No, because the fetus is violating the woman's right to bodily integrity. A born daughter is not violating her mother's bodily integrity or right to life. A fetus is.

Ok my html didn't work for some reason...

Basically Lynn you claim that

" No, a mother does not have the right to violate her daughter's bodily integrity. A mother doesn't have the right to kill her daughter, removing her right to live. She doesn't have the right to take away her daughter's bodily integrity."

Lynn, can't you see that aborting a child doees all of this? I mean, how can you claim that a mother doesn't have the right to violate her daughte's bodily integrity and moreover has no right to kill her daughter, yet still support abortion?

Answered above. As well as the fact that I don't think a fetus is a person, whereas I certainly think a born daughter is a person.

Lynn..Come on, you can't actually believe that a child violating one of it's parents rights makes killing ok. You JUST said that a mother has no right to either violate her daughters bodily integrity or to kill her daughter.

Children violate their parent's rights. My son is violating my right to privacy right now for "invading" my house. He violates my bodily auntonomy frequently by flinging his little hands inside my mouth. Oddly, although those little hands are clearly an invasion of my bodily domain, I have no right to bite them off for their offense.

Lynn, can you not see how ridiculous it is to say that parents can only violate their children's rights in X circumstance but NEVER in Y circumstance?

Lynn how do you define personhood?

I'm very curious to know how an infant fits this definition while a fetus does not.

Lynn,

but it's only murder if the being being killed has a soul.

and your scriptural reference for this is where?

We can argue about ensoulment, but it is obvious that ensoulment cannot happen at conception

and your scriptural reference for this is where?

A midget is a born person with a soul, just a born person with a soul who has stunted growth.

and your scriptural reference for this is where?

Lauren: As also previously answered: I don't think a fetus has rights or is a person. A fetus is not a person, does not have brain function, does not have soul, therefore, not being a person and all, DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO VIOLATE. If your son ties you down and rapes you, yea, I think you should be able to take whatever action against your born son to stay alive. If your son holds a knife to your throat, yea, I think you should be able to take an action to assert your rights. A fetus inside a pregnant woman could kill her, not likely, but could. A fetus inside a pregnant woman is using her body and nutrients and all of her internal organs/systems. If she so chooses to allow that fetus, I'm all for it. If she doesn't allow it, however, it is within her rights to reassert her right to not have her body used and harmed.

HEADLINE:

FETUS HOLDS MOTHER DOWN AT KNIFEPOINT AND RAPES HER!

A fetus is not a person

and you can prove this how?

A fetus does not have brain function

and you can prove this how?

a fetus does not have a soul

and you can prove this how?

Penises invade bodily autonomy during wanted sex, too. Abortion proponents should say this gives women the right to commit partial birth abortion against her partner if she suddenly gets a headache. Health exception and all that.

Is killing an animal ever considered murder in the Bible? They are beings without souls, and killing them is perfectly fine. God has no problem with killing beings without souls.

It is obvious, not because of scripture, but because of science. Like I said, do you think identical twins get one soul at conception, and then when they split they each get half a soul? Or, when two fraternal twins who were separate at conception and would both have to have a soul, join together, does that person have two souls? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

And the scriptural reference for ensoulment happening at first breath is in Genesis.

Since those with dwarfism are human and breathing, I'll say that's my scriptural reference. I think it's funny that A) you are using the generally derogatory term "midget," sorry I didn't correct it the first time and B) that you think that because God directly mentions fetuses in the Bible in one context, it's ridiculous for me to think they should be directly mentioned in another context.

Lynn, you're defining personhood with brain function? This is a bit tricky when we see that all animals have brain function, some with the ability of higher thinking. Obviously "brain function" can not be the sole criteria for personhood.

Also, "a fetus does not have a sould" What? How in the world can you know this? This is your opinion based on *nothing*. Lynn, what if I believe that ensoulment does not occur until the age of 2. Coincidentally, children prior to this age have quite limited brain function when compared to adults. Lynn, should I be legally able to kill a 2 year old based on this belief?

As far as my son's malicious actions twoards me: this is not analagous to a maternal/fetal relationship. The fetus has absolutly no intent. The fetus is in fact a created being who has haphazardly found itself inside its mother's womb. It has no dastardly plans. In order for me to claim "self-defense" their must be someone actually *attacking* me. If a man walks up to me on the street, perhaps a bit closer than I'm comfortable with, and I kill him...we'll I doubt the court will buy my claim of imminent threat.

Hey Lauren,

How you managing with all that nutrient theft goin' on? We can get counseling for your organs if you want...seeing as how they are being "used" and all.
Jeepers, do you think there is such a thing as Post Organ Use Stress Disorder?

Murder is murder - but it's only murder if the being being killed has a soul.

Can you show me where in the Bible the unborn child does not have a soul? Where do you get this idea? Certainly not from the Bible.

Job 31:15
Did not He who made me in the womb make them [Job's servants]?
Did not the Same One for us both within our mothers?

Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

How can you "be sinful" (ie. possess sin nature)from the time you are conceived unless you have a soul?

Ever noticed that in the Bible, when it talks about women giving birth, it lists two separate events. "Conceived", and "bore".
Conception is an event in a human being's life....birth is an event in a human being's life.

Judges 13:7
""But he said to me, 'You will conceive and give birth to a son.'"

This is but one of hundreds of examples of this.
I can list more if you need it, but if you've read your Bible, I'm sure you already know where they are.

Luke 1
41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Notice that the Bible considers the unborn child as a "baby".

Job 3:1
"Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light."

Again, the unborn child is described as an "infant" in the Bible.

And by the way, God has punished for abortions:
Amos 1:13

13 This is what the LORD says:
"For three sins of Ammon,
even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}.
Because he ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead
in order to extend his borders,

And he has commended midwives who chose not to what you might consider "partial birth abortions":

Exodus 1
15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"
19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."
20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.

""There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." [Proverbs 6:16-19]"

God forms people from the womb to serve a certain purpose:

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
Job 31:15

Before I formed you inthe womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5

Here are more verses to ponder:

You hands shaped me and made me. Will You now turn and destroy me? Remember that You molded me like clay. Will You now turn mw to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me knidness, and in Your providence watched over my spirit.
Job 10:8-12

For You created my innermost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Psalm 139:13-16

This is what the Lord says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. DOn no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Jeremiah 22:3

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Or, when two fraternal twins who were separate at conception and would both have to have a soul, join together, does that person have two souls? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

How do you know that both souls are not already present in the one that splits into two?

Jill: You're funny! Of course, when a penis enters the body during sex and the woman allows it to be there, then it isn't violating her right. If she changes her mind, and says no, and the person keeps going, that's rape, and that is violating her right.

And you can prove they ARE a person? No, you can't. A late term fetus, probably a person. A late term fetus can have a functioning brain. An early fetus is just barely forming a brain, and therefore cannot have a functioning brain. Any medical site will tell you that there is no way a fetus can have any sort of consciousness or actual higher brain function until viability. If your pro-life starts tell you that a fetus has a full brain at 6 weeks, please kindly ignore them.

You say ensoulment happens at conception. I've given you two very good reasons why that doesn't work. I say ensoulment happens at first breath, which would be at birth, with Biblical reference to God breathing life/soul into Adam after fully forming him.

So basically, you are saying that just because a person is small in stature but human and breathing we have no right to kill it, both scientifically and scripturally?

Beth: So, sometimes TWO souls enter at conception and sometimes one soul enters at conception? And that doesn't answer the one where the two separate conceptions come together. Does one conception get a soul and one doesn't? Does the person get two souls? This whole "every conception has a soul" thing is awful confusing when you look at scientific facts.

Lynn! Yes! We *can* prove that a fetus is a person!

(And we can do it without any biblical references!)

Are you ready?

Do fish
breathe air?
Yes, but not directly into the lungs as mammals do (except for some tropical fish). (Actually they breathe oxygen not air.) As water passes over a system of extremely fine gill membranes, fish absorb the water's oxygen content. Gills contain a network of fine blood vessels (capillaries) that take up the oxygen and diffuse it through the membranes.

Hmmmm...so it seems that a fetus is breathing, just not in the same way that it will after it is delivered...

You say ensoulment happens at conception. I've given you two very good reasons why that doesn't work. I say ensoulment happens at first breath, which would be at birth, with Biblical reference to God breathing life/soul into Adam after fully forming him.

Lynn, but aren't you forgetting that babes in the womb already are breathing....they breath amniotic fluid.

Also, Adam was a fully grown adult when he was created. If you use that verse to prove when the soul enters the body, then you'll have to conclude that a person must be a fully grown adult before they have a soul.

Can't have it both ways.

A PERSON that is small of stature and human and breathing air. A fetus, without a functioning brain, not breathing in open air, not having a soul, is not a person to me, or to most people. (did you know that early fetuses have gills?)

I have to write a paper. Enjoy pouncing on the next pro-choice individual foolish enough to speak to you!

(did you know that early fetuses have gills?)

Did you know that is a lie that has been disproven for years?

This whole "every conception has a soul" thing is awful confusing when you look at scientific facts.

Well of course it does. Science just hasn't caught up yet...patience, my friend, patience.

Why do we continue to search for a cure for cancer? We don't have one now, and can therefore say that since science can't fix it we should assume that it can't be fixed.

Just because science can't explain something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means science is lacking.

And no, a fetus is not breathing in the way implied in the Bible. The general Jewish belief on ensoulment is based on the passage in Genesis. And if knowing someone in the womb counts as personhood, what about the fact that the Bible says that God knows you *BEFORE* the womb. Does that make you a person before the womb? God knows everything, past present and future. So, he shapes in the womb the body of the PERSON to come, not the person already existing.

If souls are only present as according to the verse you showed me, Lynn, then we all do not have souls until we reach adulthood.

By the way, regarding the "fish gills":

"The same is true of the so-called "gill slits." In the human embryo at one month, there are wrinkles (flexion folds) in the skin where the "throat pouches" grow out. Once in a while, one of these pouches will break through, and a child will be born with a small hole in the neck. That's when we find out for sure that these structures are not gill slits. If the opening were really part of a gill, if it really were a "throwback to the fish stage," then there would be blood vessels all around it, as if it were going to absorb oxygen from water as a gill does. But there is no such structure. We simply don't have the DNA instructions for forming gills.

Unfortunately, some babies are born with three eyes or one eye. That doesn't mean, of course, that we evolved from something with one eye or three eyes. It's simply a mistake in the normal program for human development, and it emphasizes how perfect our design features and operation must be for life to continue.

The throat (or pharyngeal) grooves and pouches, falsely called "gill slit," are not mistakes in human development. They develop into absolutely essential parts of human anatomy - the lower jaw, tongue, thymus gland, the parathyroid, etc. The middle ear canals come from the second pouches, and the parathyroid and thymus glands come from the third and fourth.

Without a thymus, we would lose half our immune systems. Without the parathyroids, we would be unable to regulate calcium balance and could not even survive. Another pouch, thought to be vestigial by evolutionists until just recently, becomes a gland that assists in calcium balance. Far from being useless evolutionary vestiges, then, these so-called "gill slits" are quite essential for distinctively human development.

As with "yolk sacs," "gill slit" formation represents an ingenious and adaptable solution to a difficult engineering problem. How can a small, round egg cell be turned into an animal or human being with a digestive tube and various organs inside a body cavity? The answer is to have the little ball (or flat sheet in some organisms) "swallow itself," forming a tube which then "buds off" other tubes and pouches. The anterior pituitary, lungs, urinary bladder, and parts of the liver and pancreas develop in this way.

In fish, gills develop from such processes, and in human beings, the ear canals, parathyroid, and thymus glands develop. Following DNA instructions in their respective egg cells, fish and human beings each use a similar process to develop their distinctive features."

God breathed life/soul into Adam after forming and shaping him, does that mean that possibly ensoulment happens after we are formed and take first breath?

Ahhhhhh...I get it now. Only full grown men that are breathing have souls...I was feeling like Valerie there for a minute...you know confused.

Ok, we can all agree that "brain function" is not what makes us "persons". Animals have brain function. Unless we want to argue that animals are people, I think we can safely say that this is a given.

So then, what makes us persons? We can say "soul", which I believe, but how do we explain what this means in non-religious tones? What sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom?

Science tells us that we are unique because of our ability to affect our environment. No other animal has this capacity. Non-human animals are simply victims of their environments.

Humans, however, are capable of *changing* their environments. We can survive in antartica due to human ingeniuity, and create life sustaining answers to disease. We can alter our awareness, shield ourselves from destructive forces, and spread our influence throughout the world.

An ape, no matter how high functioning, can not design a skyscraper.

However, there is a catch. We can not reach this potential alone. Indeed, though we are all born with innate capacity, we can only access this capacity through our social interactions. This presents a scenerio where we alone have no value, but rather gain our value from our group.

Due to this nature, one individual is not raised above the rest. Even the highest performer is limited by his interaction. Were he a feral child, Einstine would never discovered the theory of relativity.

Because our capcity is realized only through inclusion in the group, every member of said group is included in the umbrella of "person". While one member may add nothing of substance to the group, he still pocesses this innate quality of humanness, and thus is a memeber of our group.

Inclusion is dependant on capacity, not expression of said capacity. This capacity, being as it is an innate quality, is present in our beings from conception. The second our genetics allign in human form, we become members of the group. Nothing we do (or don't do) can take away the fact that we have inhearted the innate "environment changing" capacity.

This capacity is what makes us human, and it is with us from the momment of conception.

Science makes your idea of every conception having a soul look foolish. Science explains perfectly that one conception becomes two and that two become one, your idea of ensoulment doesn't match with science, not the other way around. And early fetuses have gill-like structures. They don't function like *actual* gills, but they do have said structures.

And Beth: There is also a section in the Bible where the undead are raised, but they do not live/function/act, until breathed into. (can't remember exactly where, will get back to you when not writing a paper)

And no, you actually can't PROVE personhood, because personhood is an abstract philosophical concept. That's why birth is the legal definition of personhood, because philosophical distinctions don't agree and there is no way to prove philosophical/religious distinctions.

Lauren, that was an awesome post!

Science makes your idea of every conception having a soul look foolish. Science explains perfectly that one conception becomes two and that two become one, your idea of ensoulment doesn't match with science, not the other way around. And early fetuses have gill-like structures. They don't function like *actual* gills, but they do have said structures.

Now you are backtracking and agreeing with me that they are not real gills? If they're not real gills, then why bring it up?

Because the gill like structures are vestigial. Evolution, and all that ;)

Science makes your idea of every conception having a soul look foolish. Science explains perfectly that one conception becomes two and that two become one, your idea of ensoulment doesn't match with science, not the other way around.

Yes. But since our "idea" was there from the beginning independent of science, the burden falls on science, not God.

Scientifically speaking, we know that the baby in utero is l.breathing, 2.has brain function 3.has it's own DNA 4.has a beating heart 5.is developing 6.is alive

This is enough reason to give the baby the benefit of the doubt.

All you have is 1.it can't talk or read a book so it isn't a person. Therefore we can kill it.

Now which one of us sounds more reasonable?

Lynn, you never answered my question. Should I be legally allowed to kill a one year old if I believe 12 month olds not to be persons? (The child lacks self recognition which is my hypothetical definition of child)

You're saying that the law takes my theory into account, looks at the pro-life arguement of fetal personhood and settles on a middle ground. While this is functionally true, can you see the absurdity of such a notion?

And Beth: There is also a section in the Bible where the undead are raised, but they do not live/function/act, until breathed into. (can't remember exactly where, will get back to you when not writing a paper)

Are you referring to the dry bones in Exekiel?

"4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.'"

These people existed previously and already had souls. The breath brought them to physical life. Being alive physically is different than being alive spiritually. Their soul existed before and after they were brought to life.

Because the gill like structures are vestigial. Evolution, and all that ;)

Um, no, Lynn. Read again:

Without a thymus, we would lose half our immune systems. Without the parathyroids, we would be unable to regulate calcium balance and could not even survive. Another pouch, thought to be vestigial by evolutionists until just recently, becomes a gland that assists in calcium balance. Far from being useless evolutionary vestiges, then, these so-called "gill slits" are quite essential for distinctively human development.

Lynn,

It's a shame you have to leave because we have a good debate going with you on CRTL exposes Planned Parenthood's scalpel on blacks also...

Maybe next time...

By the way, Lynn, I just want to say that I appreciate your respectful and courteous debate... I hope that you can understand that we are not trying to be mean to you (you said we infuriate you) but we are trying to help you understand our point of view, just as you are trying to help us understand yours. Please try to understand that at a pro-life site, pro-lifers are going to defend their positions.

Exactly,
And while we all have different styles, and mine especially can come off as being spiteful, I assure you I never "feel" that way. Mostly I am attacking "words"...Often forgetting that there are people behind them.

Hope I haven't upset you in anyway personally...

You were an excellent debater and I learned alot (about gills and vestigial somethin or other?) this time around.

Look forward to sparring again at a later date...for now, it's SHOWER TIME!!!!!!!!!

(the crowd roars...)

Have a good shower MK. I just got out,and I'm already sweating! It's hot! I'm throwin on my AC.

"You say ensoulment happens at conception. I've given you two very good reasons why that doesn't work. I say ensoulment happens at first breath, which would be at birth, with Biblical reference to God breathing life/soul into Adam after fully forming him."

:-/

Can the resident traducianist get in a word to say that as a pro-life person, I appear to be the only one holding a view of the human soul that wouldn't be at variance with any secularist's view?

Creationist views of the human soul (not to be confused with creationISM, generally understood as a theory of the origins of life on earth) can posit ensoulment at birth, at conception, or whenever.

Traducianisms like mine hold that everything that a child is -- from conception onward -- is a direct creation of the parents. Do we "have" a soul? Do we "have" a spirit? My answer to such questions is that we "are" a soul, that we "are" spirits, that we "are" bodies. Actually, we "are" persons -- those elements are conventional terms we need to speak of ourselves, but they don't refer to real "parts" of ourselves. And for those who might insist on thinking of them as real parts, I'd then only plead that we don't speak of such nonsense as souls being "in" bodies -- it'd be much more appropriate, if we're going to speak this way at all, to speak of bodies as being in souls.

;-)

At any rate, pro-choice people here can know that in me, at any rate, they have an interlocutor who doesn't interpose ensoulment as any kind of issue at all. They should also remember, though, that such a view doesn't in the least detract from my being a committed, credal, boringly orthodox Christian.

Rasqual,

if we're going to speak this way at all, to speak of bodies as being in souls.

This is exactly what I believe. Just didn't want to get into it because it was soooo esoterical.

The idea that God is encumbered by "time" as we understand it is a false one. Time happens all at once to Him, and there is no particular "moment" when anything happens.

This is why He can say that He knew us before He formed us. He knew us before He formed us, when He formed us, and after He formed us because they are all the same to Him.

It is also why I can pray for someone that has committed suicide 10 years ago and contribute to the salvation of his soul even though his death took place in the past. God hears my prayer (from what we would call the future)at the same time that the person is committing suicide (in what we would call the past)...

The soul, is the essence of who we are. Without it there would be nothing to attach a body to.

Well said. Thank you.

BTW,
I'm only agreeing that the soul encompasses a body, not with generationism.

mk

My view is that we are spiritual beings in physical bodies (human beings) for this very short stay on earth.

Viewed from eternity's perspective, life is a mere vapor. That does not diminish it's value, no, to the contrary, it makes every moment of our human existence of extreme value. Therefore, to deny anyone, including an innocent, dfenseless baby in the womb of the human experience, is to committ the ultimate theft.

Let's not complicate things. Sin is sin. Theft is murder, murder is theft, etc.

A baby living in the womb of a mother is evidence of God's intent for a human being to have a physical experience. Why, I am not sure, except to say that it obviously brings God glory. To interfere in that process of defined intent is direct rebellion against the Creator and therefore bears a penalty to be executed in God's realm of the spiritual world, more commonly know as hell.

Amen HisMan!

Lynn,

You never answered this:

So basically, you are saying that just because a person is small in stature but human and breathing we have no right to kill it, both scientifically and scripturally?

MK -

I need one of your summaries on this. I don't have time to read everything.

so far I have, through skimming.....

fetii don't have souls,
animals don't have souls,
So we can kill them both.
Somone forcing another to have an abortion is okay as long as the person who is being forced goes based on their forced decision and not because they were forced.
Fetus have gills and don't breath.
Fetus don't have gills and breath amniotic fluid.
The cow jumped over the moon.

oh... I'm confused ...

MK:

It's Catholics like you who keep Evangelicals like me happily ecumenical. ;-)

There are some profound points of disagreement, of course -- but none relate to the fundamental creeds of the ecumenical councils.

HisMan:

Well said. God's intentions are often mediated by human acts. We can be his instruments -- cooperatively as his confessing children, or unwittingly (e.g. Cyrus as judgment on Israel).

It's horrendous to consider whose instruments abortion advocates unwittingly are.

Valerie,

Perfect except you forgot:

HisMan is always quoting scripture.
The other side is always getting mad because HisMan is always quoting scripture.
The other side will often ask you to quote scripture to prove a point.
The other side will quote scripture when it suits their agenda.
Bethany can quote scripture and no one gets mad.
You may not kill midgets. They are persons who have a short stature and breath.
The jury is still out on whether or not you may shove pencils up peoples noses or hit them with frying pans.

I think that's all of it.
mk

"The other side will often ask you to quote scripture to prove a point.
The other side will quote scripture when it suits their agenda."

Your right MK. It gets really frustrating, especially because the scripture is usually out of context.

Rasqual,

And I'll be darned if I will let those differences get in the way of joining together in the battle for souls that is taking place. Or the battle for lives.

As long as we do not let the "Evil One" separate us, we can fight as an undivided house and be assured a victory.

Glad to be on your team.

And if any of you are ever near Ascension (Oak Park, IL) on the first Friday of a month (Taize), let's meet!

I think the reason we get angry when His Man quotes scripture is because he's rather condescending when he does it...that and he always throws his two cents in about how evil pro-choicers are and how we are sinful and going straight to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00 no matter what.

That and he actually thinks a hymen = virginity and that women are only worth their virginity. At least...that's my interpretation as to why people are not a fan of His Man.

*shrugs*

If I can find Oak Park (I'm directionally challenged) you've got a date?

Have you been officially indoctrinated into the Breakfast Club yet?

I have to agree with Rae here. Bethany's not nearly as condescending as snide as His Man is when he posts. He comes across as having a self-righteous "holier-than-thou" attitude, and just plain offensive.

And actually, for future reference. An intact hymen *does not* = virginity. There are three different types of hymens, and some women are born without one. So the whole hymen theory on virginity just got shot down.

Rae,

I can understand that, but honestly, they never let up. While many on the Choice side have been rude, vulgar and downright mean, I honestly could not tell you who said what...I don't keep throwing things back in their faces and I don't let the past interfere with listening to their future statements. I simply don't remember every little insult that gets tossed out. I don't take what's said on here personally and am surprised that the other side does.

Even with Cameron and SMOG I periodically let them know that I'm just toying with them...and have said repeatedly that if I cross a line they should let me know and I'll stop.

HisMan doesn't actually say those things anyway. He might imply that his faith indicates them, but I have not, that I can recall anyway, actually heard him say "YOU ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL!"

And besides, knowing that this is his "style" and the way that he expresses himself, couldn't you just let stuff roll off your backs?

I would be tempted to think that "thou dost protest too much" and wonder if it doesn't bug everyone so much because it strikes a chord!

midnite,

Do you hear yourself? That conversation took place a month ago...let it go!

Fine a hymen doesn't denote virginity. That wasn't even the point he was trying to make.

Hours upon hours of conversation have taken place on this website...weeks, nay, months...I have learned so much. About each of you, about myself, about the issues, about politics...

and all you come away with is HisMan is a jerk, MK is witch, and all those stupid Christians think hymens indicate virginity!

No wonder you'll never come "into the light". You can't see the light. You don't really hear anything...You've got your pat little arguments and no matter what gets said you just keep pluggin away...

For intelligent men and women you guys are not really not open to learning anything new are you?

"And besides, knowing that this is his "style" and the way that he expresses himself, couldn't you just let stuff roll off your backs?"

Why do you think I don't bother responding to many of his posts?

:P

@MK: I do recall him telling me he is pretty certain I'm on my merry way to Hell, and it does hurt even though I don't consider myself Christian anymore, but being told that you deserve eternal damnation and punishment because of your beliefs does hurt and I'm not going to lie about that. Being told that you are evil and immoral because one is "liberal" (Oh noez!) and agnostic/deist hurts. That's why I don't like it.

However, I am learning to ignore most of what he says as it honestly just frustrates me and I only throw my two cents in about what he has to say every once and awhile and I *try* to be as polite as possible.

I try not to be rude, vulgar or mean as that gets nobody anywhere and just leads to debates about who is more "evil".

Hisman:"To interfere in that process of defined intent is direct rebellion against the Creator and therefore bears a penalty to be executed in God's realm of the spiritual world, more commonly know as hell."

Sounds a lot like "you are condemned to hell" to me MK.

Sorry, MK, I didnt know that conversation took placea month ago, my bad.
-----------------------------------
"and all you come away with is HisMan is a jerk, MK is witch, and all those stupid Christians think hymens indicate virginity!"

Now, then MK, way to jump the gun. Did I say Hisman is a jerk, or have I called you a witch (today)? No, I have not. In fact, yesterday I had a very plesant conversation on this site.
--------------------------
No wonder you'll never come "into the light". You can't see the light. You don't really hear anything...You've got your pat little arguments and no matter what gets said you just keep pluggin away...

For intelligent men and women you guys are not really not open to learning anything new are you?

And you MK, have no clue what I can see or not see (you're not with me, nor do you know me). And once again, I am sorry for repeating something that has been stated before here. I *didnt know*.

And actually I am always open to learning something new MK, (which is one reason I am in school, to learn new things).

One more time: I AM SORRY, MY BAD.

Happy Now?

Not to mention, what happened to our peace?

HisMan, is using a computer in direct rebellion against the Creator?

Yes, yes, I think it is. I'm pretty sure the entire world you live in, the refridgerator you use, the house you live in, the car you drive, it is all in direct rebellion against the Creator.

Rae,

I know you do. You are always respectful. Which is why you are treated with respect.

And if HisMan hurt you I can bet he would feel awful about that.

In his own way he cares very much about you and all the other "girls" on here. It may not be language that you are comfortable with but look at it from his point of view.

You are all so amazing in your own idivdiual ways.
He wants to see you happy and living a life that will lead to good things. In his world that means keeping a person following the Lord and out of Hell.

My mother hates flowers. Well, maybe hate is too strong a word, but she really doesn't like to get them. She says they make the house smell like a funeral parlor. But when someone gives her a bouquet she dutifully places them in a vase and says thank you. She understands that it isn't the gift, it's where the gift is coming from.

It's coming from the heart.

So are HisMan's posts. They may make you think of funerals, but don't look at the posts. Look at the man who is giving them to you and understand that they are coming from his heart. He is offering you the most precious thing that he has.
His faith.

Even if you don't want it, at least give him credit for having your best interests in mind.

Does that make any sense at all? Or have I given you "Valeries Disease"?

I learn a lot here too, but that doesn't mean Hisman is not a jerk.

Personally, I'll never come "into the light," of being a pro-life supporter, because I believe you are the ones in the dark. :) See how this works? On your side, you think that we support baby-killing, and if we are good people, we'll be able to see it is the killing of innocent babies and come over to the side of good. On our side, we see your position as placing fetus over woman. (I don't know if you've ever heard this next argument) Your body is the vessel of your life, without a body you have no life. If you take away the control of someone's body, are you not violating their right to life? If their body is no longer theirs to control, do they have a "life" or does their life belong to someone else, the one controlling their body. (And I am aware that most Christians believe that their "life" belongs to God, but that doesn't apply to rights in general.) I used to be a pro-life supporter, but I saw the light, and came to the light side. :)

Seriously, MK, what have I done today to be disrespectful to you or anyone on this site? I havent. Plus I've always stated if you treat me with respect and curteousy, I shall treat you the same. Now what have I done to piss you off today? Please explain it to me.

Midnite,

If I jumped the gun, I too am sorry.
But everyone is always bad mouthing HisMan and he is only doing what he thinks is right.

I'm just asking everyone to cut him some slack.

There is much truth in what he says. Look deeper and don't take it all so personally. He's not attacking you. He's attacking evil. To protect you as he sees it.

inhale...oh man,it's too early for this...exhale..

mmmmmm...pretty flowers....

MK,

His Man's intentions might be good, sure. Still, I think he'd make more of a (positive) impact if he was a bit more respectful, a bit less antagonistic, you know?

That's just in my opinion, though.

Not a problem. and actaully Hisman doesnt really bother me *that* bad. He reminds me of the people In mew Orleans that stand in the intersections screaming out "God is here!" "God Loves you!" and my all time favortie "You're in the city of sin and lust". I just laugh at them and make funny faces at them. Its ok to believe something. It's just *not cool* to assume everyone thinks the same as you, or to *condem* people to hell b/c they believe something else.

midnite-

Hisman is not condemning you to hell, he is trying to save you from condemnation. I know you don't agree with him, but his intentions are good. He cares about you, that's why he's trying to help you.

Now I have to defend my self here. Please stop twisting the truth.

You accuse me of quoting the scripture out of context, where? So abortion is not murder? And God is in favor of homosexuality? And God says all fornication and adultery are not sin? And there is no heaven or hell? And He does not tell us to choose life and not death? Just where are my quotes made out of context? I like to base my views on God's patterns based on principle.

The discussion of hymens and virginity and the like was in the context of what marriage is from a Biblical perspective, a blood covenant. There was a debate about that, remember, primarily with Danielle who said marriage was just a piece of paper and didn't mean anything. I really don't think any of you has any idea of who I am or what I really trying to say or what I stand for.

No, I am not holier that thou. I admit that I need a Saviour and that without Him I will perish. I am a sinner, OK, is that clear enough? Do you want me to grovel now? The Bible says that we are all sinners. In fact I have admitted on this site many times about how imperfect I am.

I will say this. I will not compromise the truth in order to be politically correct or to gain favor with those I beleive are following a lie. That is cowardly.

I don't need anyone one of you to like me, however, for your own good, I will continue to speak the truth of the word. And I don't expect kind responses when I do that because the Bible says that the Word is the Sword of the Spirit. I don't expect when wielding a sword that those in the "room" will not feel its cut.

Know this, I have demonstrated more love for each of you by telling you the truth than those who would encourage you to keep sinning by continuing to support abortion. Perhaps when you are more mature and sin has produced more misery in your life you will realize that what I am tellling you is the truth. I get no joy from hearing all of your hatred for me simply for speaking the word. However, when PIP and SamanthaT change their hearts, all of the abuse is worth it.

So, I will continue to do what I am doing, not for any selfish reason or because I enjoy making people feel bad. No I want people to come to know the Savior, to embrace life and not the lies of the world that will only condemn you.

My reward will not come in this world but in heaven where, each of you who has had a change of heart, will be with the Lord and we will finally meet. Now that will be a great day.

Gretchen,

And I don't constantly single you out and say why is Gretchen always trying to get me to see things her way...

That's the whole point of this site. To express ourselves and show why we each think we are "in the light"...

HisMan is verbose, I am sarcastic, Bethany is sweet, Jill is to the point, Rasqual is an intellectual, Heather is soft hearted, John is poetic, Mary is relevant and Valerie is confused.

None of these are wrong. They just are who we are.
And each of them elicit a different way of expressing the pro-life argument.

And isn't that okay?

HeatherB: More flies with honey than with vinegar, right? More friends with respect and civil discussion than insults and fire and brimstone

Gretchen,

Actually I don't single you out cuz I don't know who you are...

Who are you? Welcome to the site. Sorry.
Not a great way to be introduced.

Gretchen- As Christians we are taught that people come to Christ in different ways. Some come through "honey" but some need "vinager".

There is a scriptural reference for this, but for the life of me I can't remember where it is.

Gretchen,

I was thinking that exact thing while making a laundry switch.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have much more respect for those who can present themselves in a polite, respectful manner even when they disagree with something. I know that I occasionally slip up there, but I try my hardest to treat others as I wish to be treated.

Hi Gretchen -

"Your body is the vessel of your life, without a body you have no life."

Then because a fetus has an actual physical body, he/she has a life. Based on that, why should it be okay to terminate that life, even if that life is temporarily being lived out inside your body?

Also, you don't lose your body when you are pregnant. Sure it grows and will never look the same, but you are by no means without control of your "vessel." By that note, you still have a life and are "in control". In fact, your vessel is supporting two; yours and the life being lived out inside you.

Midnight:

As noble and compassionate as what you did for your "friend" sounds, accompaning someone while they committed murder is never justifiable. That's not compassion, that enabling one to commit murder. There's never any justification for murdering an innocent child in the womb.

A true "friend" would have stood up for the defenseless baby and not budged, and least of all not helped in any way with the extermination of a child. What you accomplished was to place the blood of the baby on your hands as well. And tears don't mean a thing. That's worldy sorrow, not godly sorrow.

Let none be deceived. Now that's the truth.

Posted by: His Man at May 9, 2007 11:54 PM
-------------------------------------------

Ok, Hisman. You can claim I am not a true friend all you want. But in the end what my friend did was (@ the time) the best thing for her. Her mother told her point blank "You get an abortion or I am throwing you out of the house". Well, considering the fact we were seniors in highschool, she didnt have a job, and her father is an abusive alcoholic; I realy dont think *you or anyone* else has the right to judge her.

What did you expect her to do? Live on the streets with no prenatle care, possible starve to death, be murdered, or sell her body for money to pay for these things? Ples *MAKE ME UNDERSTAND* why she did something wrong.

And I am her bestfriend. She asked me to go and hold her hand. I did what I could do to *support her* in her time of need. She asked me not to judge her and support *the decision* forced upon her. So I did just that. Now you can step off your moral high horse and kiss my butt.

MK: Sorry, I've been reading for a while, so I know a lot of you and forget you wouldn't know me. Friends a pro-choice site link over here sometimes. Hello!

(sorry, I didn't think I'd said anything about you singling me out, were you referring to me singling you out? If I did so, it was unintentional. :))

And I understand that you are all saying it in different ways, but I did sum up all of your main position pretty well, correct? You think that a fetus is a baby and that killing a baby is unjustifiable, and that if we all recognized a fetus as a baby we would also see it as unjustifiable?

MK,

His Man's intentions might be good, sure. Still, I think he'd make more of a (positive) impact if he was a bit more respectful, a bit less antagonistic, you know?

That's just in my opinion, though.

That might be true, but if you put it to him the way you just did up there, it would probably make more of an impact then just blasting him...don't you think?

SH: I don't find it "okay" for someone else to control another's life for any length of time. And a fetus can be a threat to a woman's actual life and physical health.

"That might be true, but if you put it to him the way you just did up there, it would probably make more of an impact then just blasting him...don't you think?"

Perhaps.

And it's there for him to read and consider. Personally, I don't think it'll make that much of an impact with him, but it's there.

MK: I think someone from your side suggested that to him in an even more evenhanded and judicious tone a few blogs ago. I haven't been reading everything, but I haven't seen too much difference. But, it is his style, and he can choose to go about it whatever way he pleases, and if he doesn't want to take said factor into consideration, that is his business.

Gretchen- I don't know if you're summerizing the pro-life position or MK's specific postion, but I'm going to answer anyways!

If you're addressing the general pro-life postion, you've got it right to the last part. We know that there are some people who recognize fetal personhood, yet still believe in the right to abortion.

These people make up a minority of the pro-choice camp, but I think we all acknowledge their existance.

And I suppose I should apologize if I have blasted him, or if any of my comments made it seem that way.

Like I said, I try to treat others as I would have them treat me, but sometimes I slip up.

Gretchen,

In very simplistic terms, yes that is what we are saying.

Tho there is a faction of pro choicers who acknowledge that it is a "baby" but a mother's right supercede the childs and that is a whole other argument.

And of course there is the it's a human but not a person argument.

But for the most part, what you said is correct.

Thanks Lauren! And I did mean in general :)

In the ten minutes that we have all been discussing how we are adults and always act respectfully if only HisMan would do the same,

Two of you have called him a jerk and asked him to kiss your butt...

round 2:

Back to your corners...

"I don't find it "okay" for someone else to control another's life for any length of time. And a fetus can be a threat to a woman's actual life and physical health."

So, lack of control over the pregnancy is the justification for killing the baby?

And how does a baby control his/her's mother while in the womb?

I am very pro-choice. I did some intern work for Planned Parenthood. However, I believed in my pro-choice stance from the day I came out of my mothers womb. Why? I've always been some what of a woman's liberator. I feel and see the inequalities of being a woman in this society.
The postings on this site, well I gotta come out and say it...disturb me. There is no way us pro-choicers are going to switch your pro-life view and vice versa. I don't know why people even try anymore. Honestly, if you want to make abortions illegal...then provide free birth control for every woman on this planet and sex education has to be mandated. Until then, abortion is something only a WOMAN and her doctor should discuss.

No problem Gretchen.

Lauren,

Let me help you.

The Bible says as Christ's followers we are salt and light. Jesus dealt with the money changers in the temple, He listed the sins of the women at the well before He offered her forgiveness, which she could have rejected, He told Peter, get thee behind me Satan, He told Judas that he would betray Him, etc., etc.

Salt when imparted to food makes it more tasty. Hence when someone who is willing to be taught is willing to hear the word, the bread of life, it tastes good and they want even more.

However, salt is also a purifier and preserver. When applied to a wound for purposes of healing, the wounded one feels a lot of pain, however, the result is their healing and recovery.

I believe a lot of people on this sight have been wounded by the world. They have also been wounded by believing lies and are affected by their implementation into their lives. That abortion is a choice, that pre-marital sex is OK, that homosexuality is OK, etc., etc. Believing these things has consequences as the Bible says the wages of sin is death. When they hear the truth, the inital reaction is usually to pull back, to reject, however, the medicine has been administered, the seed planted, and God's word will not return to Him void but accomplish the purpose for which it was sent.

Look, the Calvary scene is a repesentation of the culmination and meaning of life. Jesus is on the center cross with arms open wide offering forgiveness of sins. The criminals on the cross on each side of Him represent the choice of either rejecting Him or accepting Him. It's really that simple.

My choice is to accept Him and reveal to those that would, to accept Him also. Nothing really else matters in this life and nothing would make me more happy than for thos on this site who are pro-choice to embrace the author of Life, Jesus Christ. He and He alone is the answer.

I meant governmental control, rather than fetal control, however, a fetus does "control" the woman's body while in the womb. A fetus doesn't consciously control the mother, but its presence does raise her hormone levels to thousands of times their normal level, increases her need for food intake, increases her fatigue, therefore controlling her ability to take part in certain activites, etc.

And this is to everyone on this site:

What do y'all think I did, go in the OR room with her and HELP with the abortion. NO I did not. Her mother went earlier that day and signed the papers, and told her "you did this to yourself, you deal with it yourself". And wanted her to go alone. I drover here there, held her hand in the waiting room, and then I *waited*. I didnt help them preform the abortion, I sat there and waited until they released her. I held her hand the whole way home while she cryed. Did you *EXPECT* me to let her go through that all alone? Because if so, YOU"RE ALL HEARTLESS people.

Midnite: I actually almost started crying from that post. :(

::hugs:: Love you dear, and if it makes you angry, don't stick around too long. It's hard for others to see beyond their boxes sometimes.

Chelle, Welcome!

Thankfully you are wrong about converts! Alsomt everyone here was pro-choice at some time. We've been so blessed to have such open minded people stumble upon this site.

As for your qualms with lack of pro=life support of birth control: There are a number of factors that influence my views on birth control, but one of the largest is the fact that 50% of unplanned pregnancies occur while the woman was using birth control. We need to find better solutions to unplanned pregnancy, not just throw band-aids on the problem.

I think you would be happy to know that there are organizations such as feminists for life that are doing TONS to help women facing unplanned pregnancies. There is a lot that pro-choice and pro-life groups can do together to further women's lives.

And for the record, I don't believe in god. I believe that Mother Nature is God. She is everything. I believe in Karma as well. So don't give me the christian bible speak. I won't listen. I never made my communion or whatever its called. I was raised protestant. The most my mother did was have us kids baptised. She was raised in a very strict catholic household and didn't want to put her children through the same thing. My mom is the only one out of three daughters who didn't have an abortion. Both of my aunts had ones for different reasons. And I love them regardless. It was their choice. My one aunt had one while she was married and her husband at that time got them into a cult. She decided to abortion and divorce because the cult was going to make her give them the baby and her money (life savings). She got out before it was too late. My other aunt was pregnant at the age of 12 (we get our periods early in my family) and there is no way a 12 year old is old enough to be a parent.
Two more justifications for abortion. Just my two cents.

Ahh, government control, gotcha.

But are you saying that because a baby affects physical aspects of the woman's body that she may not like, he/she should be aborted?

I know morning sickness gets bad sometimes, but geez, that seems a poor reason to kill a baby.

Midnite:

I know it must have been terrible for you to see your friend in such pain. I know some will disagree, but I think that given the situation, and the lack of options, you did the right thing. You were there for your friend when she needed you the most.

midnite- We know that you were doing what you thought was best for your friend. I believe that you were acting out of compassion. I am so ANGRY that your friend was not informed about all the ways she could be helped! I used to work for an organization that found housing, schooling, clothing, doctors, medicaid ect. for pregnant women. I just wish you could have come into contact with such an organization!

I belive:
That abortion is a choice, that pre-marital sex is OK, that homosexuality is OK, etc., etc.

Now, if I said I belive these things because God said it, you would think I'm lying or crazy.

If you believe the opposite because God said it, I'm supposed to understand?

Midnight,

I am sure God had a plan for your friend if only there was a true friend that could have led her to that plan. I'm sure that you thought that you were being her friend, however, you;ve heard teh story about the blind leading teh blind, right? All that stuff about her situation is bad, however, the murder of an innocent child in the womb is never justifiable. If it took your friend to suffer under those circumstances for a time for doing the right thing, how do you think God would have rewarded her? Now you and her have the blood of an innocent human being on your hands and by your attitude I can see that you don't even realize it. You are in denial.

Now what you both need to do is to go to God in humility and ask HIm to forgive. That is the only way out as He has promised to cast our sins into the sea of forgetfulness.

Lauren: "There is a lot that pro-choice and pro-life groups can do together to further women's lives."

As much as I disagree with the pro-life position, I think this is such an important thing to remember. I know that helping pregnant women who want to keep their babies have the financial/medical support to do so is an important goal on both sides, as well as improving health care for the resultant children. I think one of the main problems with birth control is improper use. Of the 54% of women who report having used a method of birth control at time of conception, 74% report having used it incorrectly/inconsistently. However, I don't know how much improper use has to do with not being knowledgeable, or forgetting. I hope that scientists can find 100% effective birth control someday.

Chelle- Thankfully there are alot of secular pro-life arguments. ;)

As for both of your cases, it sounds like your Aunts were vastly abandoned by those who should care for them. While I disagree with their abortions, I very much believe that they needed help out of their situations. That's where pro-choice/pro-life differ. Pro-life help women work out of situations without abortion, while pro-choice helps them work out of situations with abortion.

It seems,however, that often abortion providers do little to actually help the women out of their situations.

Hisman, why would ask a God for forgivenes that I dont believe in? We've been down this road before, You believe in God & I *DONT*. I am not asking for forgiveness for helping my friend. There is "no blood" on my hands b/c I DIDNT PREFORM THE ABORTION. If given the option, she would've kept her baby, but as I stated before, what did you expect a 17 year old to do exactly? Maybe get into a shelter, whore herself around to make money, or better yet, SELL DRUGS! She did what she had to do. Not to mention, she was a MINOR and had no rights what so ever. If you say anything else negative about this situation I swear God will send lightning to strike you for being a cold heartless human being

Midnight,
You are a diamond in the rough. You are a true friend. I wish every woman in the world had a friend like you. To be there for her when her mother shunned her? That is what you call dedication and love. I was always taught that a mother's love is unconditional. You can do bad things and your mom will love you. My mom has seen me at my worst (temper tantrums....etc.) and she has always said to me that "I love you regardless of what you do but I make rules to show you just how much I love you." For her mom to do that to her was in my eyes "poor poor parenting". She should have supported her in whatever choice she wanted to make. I will always give my daughters the unconditional love my mom has given me and continues to give me. I will help them if they want help yet allow them to fall in order for them to pick themselves up. That is what being a parent is about. The abortion? That should have been your friend's decision. I'm just grateful that you were there with her in her time of need. You are a blessing and I hope she realizes that.

Not to mention my friend is a freaking Catholic, get over yourself, serisouly!

SH: I have to run and go meet the people I'm going to be dog-sitting for, so I'm sorry if I don't get your next post for a while.

I think that violation or usage of the mother's body is not acceptable if she doesn't allow it. You wouldn't say to a woman that being raped is just a few minutes of a man violating her, and I know there is a difference of intent between a man and a fetus, but they are both violations. If a woman is allowed to take action that might involve injuring a rapist using her body against her will, why can she not take action against another violation of her body against her will?

Midnite- I'm not angry at you, but I'm very angry at the abortion providers for allowing the abortion to happen. Pregnant minors have oodles of rights that non-pregnant minors do not. The abortionist should have informed your friend of the options availible to her.

His Man,

Generally when you're in high school and facing an unintended pregnancy, you don't know what options you have.

My mother always told me that if I got pregnant while I lived with her, I'd be out on the street. It's a horrible thing to tell your daughter, don't you think? That you'll basically abandon her when she needs you the most because of something that wasn't intended?

Another time, after staying out past curfew with my then boyfriend and some friends, you know what my mother asked when I came home? She asked if she needed to take me to have an abortion.

The idea of losing a parent's approval is devastating for some. I've worked so hard my entire life trying to please my mother. The idea of losing that, of her being so disappointed in me, it kills me.

So I guess I can see how Ashley's friend might have felt and how, given her apparently limited options, she'd "choose" the abortion.

I think Ashley did the right thing under the circumstances. You obviously disagree, but...I guess that's to be expected.

Hisman: "I am sure God had a plan for your friend if only there was a true friend that could have led her to that plan."

I think you are putting a little too much faith in your understanding of what God's plan is. How do you know that God did not lead Midnite to her friend at that time? How do you know that Midnite was not supposed to be her intercession so that she didn't lose all faith at that point? You are not aware of the intricacies of God's plan, nor am I, but I think that the force of God places others around you who exhibit kindness, and that Midnite did what she could do, instead of leaving her friend all alone.

Well thank you Lauren, Chelle, Heather B. & Gretchen for understanding my position.

"abortionist" is obviously a made up word....if you want peopel to take you seriously(which I assume you do) shouldn't you use real words?

Midnite- I'm not angry at you, but I'm very angry at the abortion providers for allowing the abortion to happen. Pregnant minors have oodles of rights that non-pregnant minors do not. The abortionist should have informed your friend of the options availible to her.

That is so true, Lauren. In fact, a good idea for those who are pro-choice but don't like the idea of forced abortions....why not have all the pro-choice organizations start shelters specifically for those girls who want to continue their pregnancies but see no way out? Then they could refer them there so that they could continue them safely, with no threat to themselves. Wouldn't that be a solution, rather than keeping the problem alive (or increasing it) by giving them the abortion?
Why are women not given more options? Pro-life organizations already have shelters like these. And even have donated homes, food, clothing, etc, for women in these situations.

Bethany....Name one that exists country wide...

Gretchen,

We have a saying in the church...when discerning a situation, look at the fruits.

Did midnites friend get led back to God through midnites actions?

Was a baby killed and did midnite play a role in supporting that?

Was midnite a practicing Christian at the time?

All these things can be indications of which power placed midnite there at that time.

A mother, coerced/forced her daughter to kill her grandchild. I cannot see how this could possibly have been God's plan.

On the other hand, we do know that the little baby who died that day will never have a chance to know what God's plan was to be for him/her. And we do know that the mother did not show concern or care for her daughter and we do know that an abortionist made money off of this tragedy. All of which are evils.

I know that midnite's heart was in the right place. I know that she was young. I know that the church would say she didn't know that what she was doing was wrong, therefore she is not culpable.

I'm not saying midnite is going to hell. I actually commend her for trying to help.

What I am saying is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and that perhaps the situation could/should have been handled differently.

That girls mother will be held to a much higher accountability than midnite.

The problem comes in that midnite, as well as you, would do the same thing now, even though you are older and aware that there are better choices to be made. And this would make you party to the evil of abortion. Just being pro-choice places you there.

Bethany....Name one that exists country wide...

Name one pro-choice organization that offers it, period.

Bethany:

The only shelters in Birmingham are for homeless men. There is only *1* shelter in B'ham for women; and it's for women fleeing an abusive realtionship. Not b/c she's a pregnant teen. But you're right, what her mother did to her was wrong, and I'll never look at her the same way again. And I wish there was a shelter like that here so no one else has to go through the pain my bestfriend went through (I've been friends with her since we were 9). My heart aches when I think about that horrible day. But what's done is done and I cant change anything.

Teresa, "pro-choice" is obviously a made up word.... If you want people to take you seriously (which I assume you do) and not appear to look like cowards, shouldn't you use real words?

What does it matter if midnight is a christian or not?

If she were a christian would it make the outcome somehow different?

Gretchen, that's fine, I seriously need to get back to work here myself : ).

"why can she not take action against another violation of her body against her will?"

Pregnancy is not a violation of a woman's body. She knew there was a possibility she would get pregnant when she had sex, and by having sex, she accepted any consequences of that action. Having an abortion (aside from killing an innocent human being) is also a refusal to take responsibility for your actions (sex between two consenting adults).

We know getting pregnant is a possibility, no matter how many precautions we take. So why in the world is it okay to kill the life inside you because you refuse to accept responsibility for your actions?

Abortion is not accepting responsibility; it is avoiding it completely.

Okay, I have to go. I will try to get back to any responses later tonight. Ya'll have a great day!

Bethany,
Planned Parenthood does not promote abortion like you think they do. If a young woman comes in for a pregnancy test and she finds out she is pregnant, they do a mandatory guidance session with her on her options. They give her mounds and mounds of phamlets on her options...I would know being that I had to put the packages for these women together. We had packets that included shelters where she could go for help (the ones where they keep you while you are pregnant and help you through your pregnancy), adoption agencies, and last but not least info about abortion. The woman then comes back a week later (they are required by law to give the women a week to make their choice) and gives the doctor her decision. Once her decision is made, the Planned Parenthood staff help her carry through her decision. If she wants to go to the shelter...they actually call the place, give them the woman's name and info and even give her taxi money to get there. If she wants to adopt they set up the consultation for her. If she wants an abortion they sit her down again and go through everything before she even makes the offical appointment. Planned parenthood is not as evil or conniving as you all thing it is.

The only shelters in Birmingham are for homeless men. There is only *1* shelter in B'ham for women; and it's for women fleeing an abusive realtionship. Not b/c she's a pregnant teen. But you're right, what her mother did to her was wrong, and I'll never look at her the same way again. And I wish there was a shelter like that here so no one else has to go through the pain my bestfriend went through (I've been friends with her since we were 9). My heart aches when I think about that horrible day. But what's done is done and I cant change anything.

Midnite, I hope that you and your friend can heal from this one day. What happened that day was terrible. You're so right...what her mother did was so wrong. How could she force her child to kill her own grandchild? I just can't imagine anything crueler than that.

Another thing that bothers me is because of what her mother did, she could have caused her daughter to never be able to have babies again. I sure hope not though. :-(

MK, if it happend now, what would I do? I'd do the same thing I did then. It is someone else's decision to be made, not mine. Was I practicing Christian then? Nope, havent been since I was 15 (almost 8 years now). And actually MK, when this happened I was 18, b/c I am older for my grade, I was an adult at the time. And I didnt try to help, I did help. I helped my bestest friend in the whole world deal with her *life* falling to pieces. And considering the fact I wasnt the one having the abortion, I couldnt have done anything different with the situation?

MK, what did/do you want me to do? The next time a friend of mine *choses* to have an abortion; yell at them and say I cant be your friend (even though I would never do that) or say ok, I'm here for you if you need me? I think the later is the best *option* for me, being the friend, and not telling another woman I know what is best for her.

Chelle, can you give me names of some of the pamphlets that you gave to the women?

I can't remember them off the top of my head (I worked there 2 years ago....now I work for the Army).....let me go see if I can look for it on the site.

I think if I had a friend considering abortion, I might try to make sure she knew about all of her options.

If she still wants the abortion after knowing all her options, it's her decision and there's nothing more I can do except be there for her when or if she needs me.

I'm not responding to anyone in particular, just voicing a thought.

Bethany: A year later I took her to my OBGYN (one of the best in Ala) and had him do a check up on her [& I paid for this with my money b/c she couldnt afford it]. He said she'll be fine and be able to have a whole house full of babies if she wants. There was minimal scar tissue and he said she didnt have to worry about it.

Now, who wants to tell me I did the wrong thing on that situation?

What does it matter if midnight is a christian or not?

If she were a christian would it make the outcome somehow different?

The question "how do I know it wasn't God's plan to put her there?" was asked. Yes, when discerning whether or not God is working thru someone, the person's faith should be taken into consideration. It's not final proof, just one of many questions to be asked.

If Hitler claimed God told him to do something and Mother Theresa claimed God told her to do something, I would lean more towards believing that Mother Theresa was telling the truth and be much more careful about believing that Hitler was.

And I completely agree with you Heather. But @ that specific time, she *DIDNT* have another option. Now, I would bring up other options, but if *their* decision is made there is nothing else I can do about it. And I am not going to lose my friends over something that is their decsion to make anyways.

I have a question, and it's probably stupid, but no sarcasm from anyone, 'kay?

I was just wondering....

Wouldn't God be able to work through a person, regardless of their beliefs?

And once again, I didnt ask (or really even) to be there. But I *could not* let my friend go through that all alone. She asked me for support, which I gave, b/c she helped me through some very rough patches in my life. Infact, in more way than one I owe my life to her. But that's a horse of another color.

Friendship Center for New Beginnings sounds familiar to me. Everlasting adoptions sounds familiar too. Don't call me on it though. It's been awhile.

that still doesn't tell me the relevance of her christianity..or lack thereof......

also pro choice is accepted as a word by the general population..and very likely will be found in any dictionary....whereas "abortionist" isn't accepted as a word by the general population.....and very likely will NOT be found in a dictionary.....I'm not trying to make an attack..I was just making an observation...do you attack everyone who posts here?

Midnite,

MK, what did/do you want me to do? The next time a friend of mine *choses* to have an abortion; yell at them and say I cant be your friend (even though I would never do that) or say ok, I'm here for you if you need me? I think the later is the best *option* for me, being the friend, and not telling another woman I know what is best for her.

I would have "expected" you to do exactly what you did. Because you believe abortion is okay. I would have told her that I loved her and that I would be there for her after the abortion if that's what she chose to do but that I could not/would not be a party to it. Then I would have offered to find a way out of the situation that didn't involve killing her child.

But I do find it odd that out of one side of your mouth you say you were young and had nowhere else to go and didn't know all of the options available to you and her mother "forced" her, yet out of the other side of your mouth you say you were adults and would make the same decision now.

Playing on our sympathies only works if you actually believe that you had no choice in the situation. But by your own admission, not only did you have a choice, you would make the same one today.

From my point of view and from the Catholic churches point of view, you, her mother, the abortionist and anyone one else involved all were party to the same evil deed and are all responsible for the death of that child.

I know you don't agree...I don't "expect" that you would. But you asked, and I have answered.

so be it.

HeatherB,

I have a question, and it's probably stupid, but no sarcasm from anyone, 'kay?
I was just wondering....
Wouldn't God be able to work through a person, regardless of their beliefs?

That's a perfectly legitimate question and the answer is Yes, God can do whatever He wants to do.

But we were talking about how to discern whether or not God is working through someone, and one, mind you only one of many, many, many things that you look for, is what is the persons relationship with God? If they are faithful then the chances are better that God would use them. Simply because they volunteered.

Jill,

a person (who should be a doctor) who terminates pregnancies
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

well now isn't that what you've been saying all along? An abortionist is someone who should have been a doctor, but terminates pregnancies instead?

ahhhh...that one was too good to pass up!

abortionist definition
n.
One who performs abortions.

Translations for: Abortionist

Dansk (Danish)
n. - fortaler for fri abort, aborttilhænger

Nederlands (Dutch)
iemand die abortus uitvoert, voorstander van legalisering abortus

Français (French)
n. - avorteur

Deutsch (German)
n. - Abtreiber

Ελληνική (Greek)
n. - γιατρός που κάνει εκτρώσεις

Italiano (Italian)
abortista

Português (Portuguese)
n. - pessoa (f) favorável ao aborto

Русский (Russian)
подпольный акушер

Español (Spanish)
n. - abortador, abortista

Svenska (Swedish)
n. - abortör, abortförespråkare

中文（简体） (Chinese (Simplified))
施堕胎术者, 流产权的鼓吹者

中文（繁體） (Chinese (Traditional))
n. - 施墮胎術者, 流產權的鼓吹者

한국어 (Korean)
n. - 낙태 수술자

日本語 (Japanese)
n. - 堕胎医

العربيه (Arabic)
‏(الاسم) المجهض, محترف الإجهاض‏

עברית (Hebrew)
n. - ‮מבצע הפלות, אדם התומך בהפלות‬

.
There you have it...translations of a word that doesn't exist...crazy, huh?

MK, yes I was an adult at the time. My friend was 16 (very young for our grade) & didnt turn 17 until *after* we graduated. Now then, I am not trying to play on your (or anyone else's) "sympathy". Once again, the decision was not mine. Have you ever had your mother (the one person that is supposed to love you *uncodionaly*)tell you she will disown you and throw you out of her house? She was terrified of losing her mother's "respect". Not to mention, her father was/still is an abusive alcholoic; so she couldnt have gone to him for help. If her mother disowned her, her grandparents would have. If this happend, that meant no college money for her to get an education with. How was she supposed to handle ALL of that at one time?

And I have never said I thought abortion was okay either. I hoenstly wish they didnt happen as much as they do. But until there is a 100% effective birth control, they will continue to happen. And I really dont care if you think I am responsible for her child's death. I may have been an adult MK, but I did not know anything about abortions or where to go for help in that situation. I grew up in a very sheltered rich suburb of B'Ham, & things like abortion or what to do if you get pregnant information was not made available to us then. Situations like that were kept in the family and swept under the carper to never be talked about again. It was then that I realized how big a bubble/sheltered life I had led. It made me look up info like that to have available if the time ever came again.

Trust me, if it were me that got preggers I would own up to my responsibility (unles I was raped. That's the *only* way *I* would get an abortion). But not everyone thinks they way I do. I have my own personal opinion. But I can not force that opinion on evreyone nor can I expect them to believe the same things I do. I am sorry that you, Jill & HIsman think I have blood on my hands, I on the other hand, do not agree with that statement. I believe in Karma. I helped my friend in her time of need (the saddest & lowest part of her life), & I know one day when I am struggling, she will be there to help me through it, just as I helped her.

MK,
Are you male or female? Your name really doesn't give us much.

Female

Well then she can definitely have her view. I just don't agree with it one bit. I hate it when men demand a say/try to force decisions on women when it comes to her body. That's why I wanted to make sure whether or not MK was a male or female.

Trust me, if it were me that got preggers I would own up to my responsibility (unles I was raped. That's the *only* way *I* would get an abortion).

Why would you own up to the responsibility for yourself personally?
I'm just curious.

Midnite, 2:04p, said: "MK, if it happend now, what would I do? I'd do the same thing I did then. It is someone else's decision to be made, not mine."

Pathetic, Midnite. Just when I was beginning to sense remorse that you'd done a young, dumb thing out of a false understanding of compassion. Now you say you would do it again - help force a girl to get an abortion who didn't want one.

As I read somewhere, "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly."

And to remove your remaining excuses: http://www.lifecall.org/cpc/al.html

Bethany:

B/C the only way I could *personly* ratioanlize having an abortion (or if my life was in dangerfrom the pregnancy). If my boyfriend got me pregnant I would carry the child to term. Depending where I am in my life; I would either 1) give the child up for adoption or 2) keep the child to raise myself. But as I've said before my personal choice is mine, and I can't force my opinion on someone else. Nor can I tell you, MK, Jill or anyone what is the best *choice* for them. I dont have the right to tell any woman what she can or can not do with *her* body.

My main concern with the Government banning all abortions is the fact that they would have the legal right to tell a woman what she could or could not do with her body. I believe if that happens, we are opening the door to the Govrnment "governing" our bodies. And I believe that is a step towards a communist country, & I dont believe in that.

Did that help you understand better?

If I was to miraculously become pregnant tomorrow (wouldn't happen because I am extremely careful while taking my birth control...which no more periods due to LoEstrin24!!) I would abort. Why? Because I'm fresh into the real world and I'm $2,000 in debt (living expenses such as electricity and clothes for work...and no I don't by name brand...I do the walmart/kmart specials and if I can I go to swag shops). I can't support a child. Heck I can't even afford the surgeries I need which is also why I'm in the hole. I would definitely abort. Not only would I not be able to give the child a good life, but our adoption system in the US is very messed up. The most adopted children are of white race with blue eyes and blonde hair. I have brown hair and hazel eyes. So there goes my baby's life. He or she would be in an orfan with no where to go or thrive for the rest of its life. That's not what I want. I would have an abortion so I could continue working on getting myself up in the corporate ladder as well as pay off my debts. I liked to buy a house and eventually marry my boyfriend/pre-fiance (I have a promise ring which means he promised me I would eventually get an upgrade-engagement ring in a matter of 2 or 3 years from now). I'm 23 and I am able to make my own decisions. I'm already going to hell because I haven't made my communion so to be honest abortion isn't going to ruin my life that much.

Bethany:
B/C the only way I could *personly* ratioanlize having an abortion (or if my life was in dangerfrom the pregnancy). If my boyfriend got me pregnant I would carry the child to term. Depending where I am in my life; I would either 1) give the child up for adoption or 2) keep the child to raise myself. But as I've said before my personal choice is mine, and I can't force my opinion on someone else. Nor can I tell you, MK, Jill or anyone what is the best *choice* for them. I dont have the right to tell any woman what she can or can not do with *her* body.
My main concern with the Government banning all abortions is the fact that they would have the legal right to tell a woman what she could or could not do with her body. I believe if that happens, we are opening the door to the Govrnment "governing" our bodies. And I believe that is a step towards a communist country, & I dont believe in that.
Did that help you understand better?

No, actually what I meant was...what is your personal reasoning as to why it is wrong to abort? I'm talking about for you personally...why do you think it is wrong for you?

Chelle, can you provide evidence that Planned Parenthood makes you wait a week before getting an abortion?

Jill the difference is now it would be *HER CHOICE* b/c all of my friends are adults now. And I will ask you not to call me pathetic either Jill, I havent called you any names today, now have I? And once again, I didnt help force her abortion. She *asked* me to go with her b/c her MOTHER abandoned her to deal with it on her own. I didnt want any part of it to be honest with you. But, I was *NOT* going to let my bestfriend deal with that all on her own. And I bet money, you would have done the same thing I did then. And thanks for the links, I do appreciate it.

And aprently you all forgot how I help my other friend have her child (my goddaughter). Now would a fool help pay for daycare for a child that she is not biologically related to? Or would a fool help buy her clothes, buy her gifts from Santa, Easter Bunny, and babysit her while her mother works two jobs that dont pay her near enough money for what she does? You can critize me all you want Jill, but I AM doing something postive with my life. What are you doing?

Can't provide that being that I can't get into the system (I no longer have access...you don't have that the moment you leave the organization...it's like a bank...you have to give back EVERYTHING before you leave for good). Sorry. That documentation would be with a PP employee (their legal staff). Sorry.

Chelle, it shouldn't be hard to prove something like that.

Chelle,

I'm already going to hell because I haven't made my communion so to be honest abortion isn't going to ruin my life that much.

were you trying to be funny or do you actually believe that. Or do you actually believe that we believe that?

To be honest with you Bethany I am not quite sure. I just know I couldnt go through an abotion unless one of two things happened: rape, or my life was in danger b/c of the pregnancy. I just know I could do it. But I dont know why?

Can't get it. Sorry.
I do remember watching my roommate go through with her abortion (not really a full blown abortion RU-486...which is very early on the pregnancy). Heck I set up her appointment and I was told by a fellow staff member that she has to come in for an official pregnancy test as well as have a counseling session before she makes her decision. She went in while I was on the clock one day and I sat in with her. She knew what she was going to do (abort) but they told her that she needs to come in the following week to make her decision "official". We made her an appointment for the following week and she had to sign papers for the RU-486 process to begin. She was then instructed to come back the next day to receive the RU-486 pills. She did and she took the first dosage with me at the PP while I was on the clock. She was sick for a week but she was happy it was overwith.
Irony on this? Her and that boyfriend breakup...she meets another guy within a month of the breakup and 6 months later she's preggers again. This time she keeps the child because she knows that her current bf wasn't going to be a deadbeat. So abortions do not ruin a woman's level of conception unless she has them as birth control...which shouldn't be happening if the PP she goes to follows through on their sliding scale birth control program. You give them what you have on you whether it be a dollar or $20 and they give you birth control.

MK,
All the above would be my answer on that.

Chelle,

Well, you are wrong on at least two counts...communion has nothing to do with salvation.

Still...I don't believe in God so that would be grounds for me to go to hell right? LOL. I don't mind going to hell. A lot more fun people to be around who aren't goody goodies. I did that stage for awhile and it got old and boring. I'm a goody goody when I need to be. I pay my bills, go to work...get my work done and barely survive on my own with no help from others. Not many people can say that they lived on there own right out of college. So i'm proud of myself. And I don't care if there is a God. I said this before. I believe in karma. Do what you want but realize if you do something wrong...it will come back to bite you in the butt at some point. That's my belief's and that's what I'm sticking to. I plan on being cremated anyways so my body will be nothing. And I'd like to be shot off in one big pink firework over the ocean so that the ocean life can live off of me. Why pay for a huge funeral ya know? We're just wasting good playground space when you get buried.

Chelle, I'm calling you on your "mandatory wait-a-week" statement. Ain't true. The most we can get, and that's despite pro-aborts pitching as many legal fits as they can - is 24 hour waits. And that's only in some states, not all.

Chelle said: "And I don't care if there is a God. I said this before. I believe in karma."

Am curious. How does abortion fit into one's karma?

Well the one I worked at it was a week. Some are different. I do remember what happened with my ex-roomates abortion so that's what I follow. Not every library or dentist or doctor runs the same way even if they are the same company. Each district or office can have a different way of doing things. It can and does happen you know.

Well the one I worked at it was a week. Some are different. I do remember what happened with my ex-roomates abortion so that's what I follow. Not every library or dentist or doctor runs the same way even if they are the same company. Each district or office can have a different way of doing things. It can and does happen you know.

Karma in my opinion (notice how I said opinion here) for abortion is this. If you are aborting just to abort for the sake of selfishness (wanting to keep your figure...keep rich) it will haunt you. If you are aborting because you were raped...You are doing what others did to you. Killing someone inside like the predator did to you. If you are aborting because you are unable to support the child...than you will have children when you are able to and will be a great parent. If you are aborting because you're forced into it...IDK on that one. That's a toughy I'd like not to touch. Gotta go...commute back home.

Chelle, try to read that in the same way we read it, and you'll understand how ridiculous it is:

Karma in my opinion (notice how I said opinion here) for killing born children is this. If you are killing your born child for the sake of selfishness (career, other things that children get in the way of) it will haunt you. If you are killing your born child because you were raped, and the child reminds you of the rapist...You are doing what others did to you. . Killing someone inside like the predator did to you. If you are killing your born child because you are unable to support the child...than you will have children when you are able to and will be a great parent. If you are killing your born child because you're forced into it...IDK on that one. That's a toughy I'd like not to touch.

Ya twisted it to your liking I see. Personally choosing to abort for the sake of having a life than being tied down at the age of 12-20 for a child in my eyes is being responsible. How can women prove to the men in this society that we can contribute as much as they can and not just be baby incubators when we become pregnant and have to give up our hopes and dreams so early in life? This is why abortion is needed until there is birth control 100% effective. Just because we have adapted to live longer doesn't mean our harmones have. So therefore, we need to wait for birth control to have that 100% effective rate in order to ban abortions. Being pro-choice doesn't mean I'm pro abortion. I hate the idea of abortion just as much as every woman on this earth does. I just refuse to deny a woman of her life because of one mishap. Men get women pregnant and walk out all the time. But women are unable to because she's the one that holds it? I find it ludicrus. I don't want to go back to the 1950's where women were expected to be nothing but subserviant wives and mothers. I like my freedom and my independence and I believe other women should have the same type of life. To give another a great life you have to be willing to give yours and if your life isn't great, you are just spreading a horrible life to another. Think about it.

Midnight,
I'm sorry your friend was put into that situation. Oftentimes parents do respond their daughters unplanned pregnancy with dissapointment, some anger, and some become supportive once they have time to cool down. One thing that's often overlooked is support for the parents as well, it's a turmulous time for them too, especially the younger their daughter. Counseling with the individual girl/woman and then the parents is often beneficial, as it lets both parties work out their feelings and start a plan for the pregnancy and future.
I've been peer counseling teens and women facing an unplanned pregnancy for 5 yrs now. I've seen a number of teenagers go through what your friend has. I'm not going to judge your friend or your actions. But here's what I'm hearing from a different view:
It sounds like her parents weren't supportive and threatening to abandon her if she carried the pregnancy to term. It seems there was no alternatives, she wouldn't have a place to stay, no job, no way to buy food, get medical care, or continue her education. She wasn't given any choice but to have an abortion. No one would help her, it even seemed others were agreeing with her parents that this was the best choice for her. She gave into the pressure and had the abortion and maybe tried tell herself it was the best for her, but still cried.

It doesn't sound as if the abortion was what she wanted, but rather what her parents and others determined would be best for her. But where was her voice? Where was the support for her decision? Why didn't anyone stop and see that she really didn't want this and try to help her find alternatives?

There are positive options for the pregnant teen who desires to continue the pregnancy. Maternity homes are shelters for pregnant teens & women who need a safe place to live and emotional support during their pregnancy and first year of parenting. Oftentimes girls stay there for the duration of their pregnancy and post-natal but are often allowed to stay for up to 3 yrs! Maternity homes often offer life-skills courses, career/vocational training, labor/delivery and parenting classes, and they are encouraged to continue their education and either attend their local high school or may be home schooled.
There are in fact, two maternity homes in your area:
Alabama Baptist Maternity Home
PO Box 362084
Birmingham AL 35236
Phone: 205-945-0037

Lifeline Children's Svcs Maternity Hm
2908 Pump House Rd
Birmingham AL 35243
Phone: 205-967-0811

In addition, many high schools and and career centers offer education programs and flexible class hours for pregnant or parenting students, to encourage them to complete their high school education and even train in a vocational field. These include half-day vocational training or regular classes, on-site low-cost/free daycare, night classes, and child-development/parenting courses.

Also, organizations such as The Nurturing Network specializing in help for college and professional women. 32,000 volunteer members (nurses, doctors, social workers) form an extensive employment, medical, educational, counseling and residential network. Services include medical assistance, financial assistance, nurturing homes, educational programs, employment & adoption counseling, and preparation for parenthood.
Phone: 1-800-866-4666
Address: PO Box 1498, White Salmon, WA 98672
E-mail: tnn@nurturingnetwork.org
Web Address: http://nurturingnetwork.org/

It's been said many times before, and it's very true - especially troubling - the woman at highest risk of responding negatively to an abortion is the woman who feels forced into it either by lack of options or lack of support. How is she doing, BTW? If either are you are interested, I can recommend some counseling programs and websites which specialize in abortion grief/loss counseling.
My sincerest thoughts,

How can women prove to the men in this society that we can contribute as much as they can and not just be baby incubators when we become pregnant and have to give up our hopes and dreams so early in life?

Wow, if that ideology isn't hateful to women, I don't know what is.

You make it sound like choosing to be a mother is a horrid thing. No wonder women are scared to have babies in this day and age, with people like you pressuring them and making them feel as though they will be worthless if they have a child.

Baby incubators, breeding machines, etc. All those names demean- guess who? WOMEN, the same WOMEN you all claim to care so much about and want to "empower".

You know what, women can do all the things men can do, they've already proven that. Who is saying they can't?

No man can ever be a mother. No man can ever have a baby developing inside of him, and give life to that child. So you have it there...we can do all the things men can do...and we can even do one more thing on top of that!

Having children is not the end of your dreams and goals! Check out my blog, and you can see that my dreams and goals started being accomplished AFTER I had my children. Check out my other website too. Having children gives me motivation, energy, inspiration.....it gives me courage and hope. I have been able to do more with my life now than I ever was before I had children. My dreams and goals didn't die once I became pregnant! Quite the opposite!!

You may see other WOMEN as worthless "baby making machines", or "breeders", because they choose to have babies (and you call yourself pro-choice, what a crock), but you are so very wrong, and you definitely have destroyed any chances of being taken seriously (as pro-"Choice")on this blog by calling women those kinds of names.

Your hatred of motherhood is blatant.

Chelle said:
Personally choosing to abort for the sake of having a life than being tied down at the age of 12-20 for a child in my eyes is being responsible.

Then, Chelle said:
I hate the idea of abortion just as much as every woman on this earth does.

LOL Chelle, that is so messed up. Do you even know what you really believe?
You just said that you think abortion is a responsible thing to do. Now you're saying you hate it? Make up your mind.

"This is why abortion is needed until there is birth control 100% effective."

Or you could just not have sex.

The way I see it, if you are not capable of accepting responsibility for the life you may create by having sex (raising the baby or giving him/her up for adoption) then you should not be having sex.

Excuse me, God would never oppose His own will. If He says murder is a sin and then to say that somehow He participated in aiding that murder borders on blasphemy.

No, it requires faith not to take the easy way out of a difficult situation. God asks us to believe that He will deliver us no matter what, if we do the right thing.

Please stop demeaning motherhood. My wife had 5 children and these all people of God. Her influence will be felt through them for hundreds of years and affect many millions of people. Perhaps one of them will be a Supreme Court Judge who will be the deciding opinon that will overturn Roe v. Wade, Or just another woman who follows her Savior and brings up godly children.

I'm still here Midnight. Your curse of me fell on deaf ears. I really hope God blesses you. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and it's a done deal.

Hi Jill, His Man, MK, Bethany, Heather, Mary and the rest of the now-extensive, pro-life crew on this site, ... many insights are superb!

there is little doubt that we have a range of pro-choicers here. I'm a wondering though (besides their youth) whether or not these people do share a common weakness. They all seem to be seeking profound hope. It is this characteristic that allows life to flourish and be very meaningful. It seems that many pro-choicers 'prefer-to-cut-their-losses' and believe this to be a full life. However, a life without hope has no magic in it ... as far as pro-lifers are concerned.

Would our debates be better, if we allow a growth in hope? Just wondering out loud ...............

And who could forget you John? Kudos!!!

I have alot of respect for Mom's that stay home with their Children (my wife does). It's the most important job one can have. Plus, they won't regret that they did later in life.

Excellent suggestion John,

What should we do?

mk

don't really know MK,

but I have the impression that we should share our weaknesses and on-going struggles too .... for instance your Dad and how you relate to him ... tears too. The youngun's share their art, their favourite tv shows ... their music .... should we not share our weaknesses (besides Hollywood hunks). They share what is of importance to them now; shouldn't we share what is that important to us ... even though it does seem not-hot!

Life is not simplified by taking a pro-life stance but expands. I find that a lot of the simplistic rhetoric we face, locks-in these people. They seem without hope .... sure hope Jill recycles the video about Elliot Mooney often ... we all have much to learn, and much to hope for!

"I feel and see the inequalities of being a woman in this society."

Well Chelle, then you can certainly appreciate the asymmetry pro-lifers see in the powerlesness of the unborn against the ruthless ideologs of the abortion industry. Oh -- and against the ruthless "men" who let unjustly dependent women know that unless they get an abortion, "I'm outta here."

Abortion is an irresponsible man's best weapon to maintain an asymmetrical power relationship with a woman who may prefer to choose life.

Tell you what, Chelle -- you go right ahead and prefer women's right to kill (if they choose) over women's championed role of nurturer. We pro-life men will do our part to encourage men to accept responsiblity for the lives they sire -- apparently so your uberfrauleins can kill them anyway.

There's no bravery in striding into the world as an independent woman as the bones of your unborn children are crunching under your polished heels.

Bethany, I agree with you that it's demeaning to stay at home moms to call them "baby factories". My mother just happens to be one of those people, and happens to have made a wonderful life for my brother and I. In my case, pro-choice also applies to the career paths a woman wants to take...whether that be of stay at home mom or working outside the home. Gotta love stay at home dads, too. :)

I fully intend on launching my career and then having a few children...I can do both, and it's my choice. I can make a difference both in my career and the lives of the children I'll someday have. (Unless, of course...I'm infertile, which is a risk that runs on one side of my family).

I agree that having both children and a career is a legitimate option -- but that's because I believe that having two careers is a legitimate option.

Most people would think that a bit crazy. But few people think having one career and children is crazy.

Ergo, there's something less important or demanding about having children than about having a second career.

Hmmmm.

;-)

Bethany:
"Having children is not the end of your dreams and goals!"

Why some women imagine that the rat race they deplore us men for engaging in is something they're heroically obliged to kill children in order to also dive into, is a wee bit mysterious.

I suspect the advertising world is responsible for much of the pandemic narcissism that funds such delusory "world is my oyster" memes.

John,

That's a great idea...sometimes we probably come off as "knowing everything" and living without any problems...which is NOT true. I have had much sadness in my life as well as much joy...

I miss my father sooooo much. He used to tell me that he wouldn't trade me for a monkey. Not even 10 monkeys. I loved that, because chimpanzee's are my favorite animal...

He had a bar complete with a tapper in our basement...schlitz (tells you how old I am). He used to bring communion to the elderly, drive them to church, read on the altar (I can still remember him practicing on Sunday mornings...always had a hard time with names...Ephisians, Gethsemane...)

He would take me for ice cream to 31 flavors and get so mad cuz all I'd want is vanilla...He loved Arlington Park (No harness racing for him) and Notre Dame and Da Bears. He went to DePaul High School...

Now he just sits in his chair and stares...
I'm getting all teary just telling you about him.

If he was in a room where people were telling off color jokes, or making racist remarks, or talking bad about someone...he would get up and leave.

I'd give anything to hear his voice just one more time...to have him place his hand on my cheek and tell me that he loves me...to have him steal a piece of soda bread off of my plate or sneak a piece of cake that mom was saving for the party.
If I could only hear him sing off key (loud) in church, or go with him to the zoo, or pour him another beer (I could pour a beer before I could walk) with just the right head on it...

Thank God he got sick before things like partial birth abortion, or cloning or embryonic stem cell's became common place words, because it would have killed him.

If only people could view the world the way he did. Ignoring the bad in people, celebrating the good, loving God, loving my mother...even now he brings us together because he is the center of our family. Even now he is a valuable human being.

But he knew a secret. He knew that every single person in this world is valuable. Every single one. It's just up to us to see it.

Thank you God, for letting me have him for as long as you did...I can't wait til the day that I can stand on his toes while he whirls me around a room...I wouldn't trade him for a monkey. Not even 10 monkeys...

mk

MK:

*hug* I am and will always be a daddy's girl. If you only knew what kind of heckling and prodding I have to do to make sure my old man is eating right and taking good care of himself....I truly am my father's keeper. I constantly remind him to stay healthy...who else is gonna walk me down the aisle someday? :)

Mt dad was also the greatest!

Meant my

Forty four years ago, my parent's had a son that was born with DS. At the time, it was perfectly acceptable to lock them away in a mental institution. In contrast, they found a fledgling organization of like minded parents that decided their special needs children were important and were entitled to the best life possible. It just goes to show you don’t throw away human beings. I don’t care if they are “not normal”. His love has always been unconditional and he continues to be a blessing in the life of our family. I can't imagine a life without these blessings.

Bethany, I agree with you that it's demeaning to stay at home moms to call them "baby factories". My mother just happens to be one of those people, and happens to have made a wonderful life for my brother and I. In my case, pro-choice also applies to the career paths a woman wants to take...whether that be of stay at home mom or working outside the home. Gotta love stay at home dads, too. :)

Thank you, Alyssa. Even though we disagree on the topic of abortion, I appreciate that we can agree on this.

John, you've got some great ideas. :)

Bethany:
"Having children is not the end of your dreams and goals!"

Why some women imagine that the rat race they deplore us men for engaging in is something they're heroically obliged to kill children in order to also dive into, is a wee bit mysterious.
I suspect the advertising world is responsible for much of the pandemic narcissism that funds such delusory "world is my oyster" memes.

Rasqual, I totally agree. It's so confusing. I don't even know why women feel the need to prove anything to men anyway....if they know they are just as good as men, why do they have to prove it to anyone? It kind of makes me feel that possibly they are insecure and really don't feel that they are good as men or something? Maybe someone hurt them as they were growing up, and told them they were worthless, and they grow up trying to prove them wrong? I honestly don't know. It makes no sense.

I have alot of respect for Mom's that stay home with their Children (my wife does). It's the most important job one can have. Plus, they won't regret that they did later in life.

Jasper, that's one thing that I can thankfully rest assured of...that when I am dying, I will not have to deal with those kinds of regrets, thankfully. I doubt anyone who has ever been on their deathbed and said, "I regret not having gotten a better career." or, "I sure wish I could have gotten that abortion years ago."

Thanks MK, Alyssa, Jon, Heather, and in another thread Bethany, HisMan, Rae and Midnite,

many years ago I attended college and was very disappointed that my education only made me more proficient (a better tech), but it stayed clear of teaching me to be more human. [And the seminary was not too much better.] Therefore, I am still leery of the science-medical model of education, this is touted as ideal. [Ideal - for whom? We are not machines .... a test is run to show thinking, right. What is recorded is a small electric current generated in the area reserved for brain development. It is not a recording of thought any more than electric signals carried on wires (ie. household) are thoughts]

There is a distinction between mind and brain. The mind is the originator of thoughts. It is in the realm of soul, and of rights, and of person-hood. And like thoughts, which are immaterial: so our minds, rights, souls and person-hood too are immaterial. This need not be considered as hocus pocus but puts boundaries on the importance of perceiving reality in an exclusively materialistic way.

Just one small example ... the 99 days the Mooney's spent with Eliot. What was 'their education'? He had Trichotomy 13 .... but is Eliot this? Is he a disease? Is pregnancy a disease? And for you: is this only what you have allowed yourself to be educated about? Some kids with autism have such keen hearing they can actually hear the grass growing .... this freaks me out at my own insensitivity.

Humans are incredible creatures, living in an incredible universe ... can't we play and dance and sing. God believes in me! Amen

Humans are incredible creatures, living in an incredible universe ... can't we play and dance and sing. God believes in me! Amen

That's a beautiful thought.

Amen.

Bethany:
"I don't even know why women feel the need to prove anything to men anyway....if they know they are just as good as men, why do they have to prove it to anyone?"

Ever erred crossing a road and had a fast-coming car SPEED UP instead of, sensibly, slow down to ensure they'd miss you?

There's a class of people out there who are willing to cause serious problems if only they can prove something (e.g., that the other guy was a jerk for pulling out in front of 'em).

We all have things to prove. At some level, that's OK. But when we're willing to kill to prove a thing, that's darned unfortunate. We prove far more than we intend when it comes to that.

Amen.