Today in Washington there will be a hearing in the House Subcommittee on Health on post-partum depression.

IL Democrat Rep. Bobby Rush will introduce noncontroversial legislation that directs the National Institutes of Health to expand research into post-partum depression and the Dept. of Health & Human Services to make grants for services for women with post-partum depression and their families.

Now wouldn't common sense dictate that if there is such a malady as post-partum depression there must be such a malady as post-abortion depression?

Yet post-abortion depression goes widely unrecognized - even disparaged - and untreated.

Realizing the lack of information available on post-abortion depression, Republicans have chosen to use their opportunity today to call witnesses to discuss post-abortion depression. Bravo....

They will be Michaelene Fredenburg and Dr. Priscilla Coleman. Michaelene will speak as a post-abortive woman whose mental health was severely impacted afterward. Dr. Coleman of Bowling Green State University will give testimony on the existing research regarding post-abortion depression.

Republicans will also introduce the Post-Abortion Depression Research and Care Act. This bill provides $15 million to the NIH to research the emotional impact of abortion on women and creates a $1.5 million grant program to fund the development of treatment programs for women who suffer from post-abortion depression.

Are there pro-aborts who believe post-partum depression exists but not post-abortion depression? Would you even battle research into post-abortion depression? If so, why?

There is a great site for PAS. It's called Safe Haven Ministries. This is more proof to me that PAS does exist.

Sure, it exists, just like post partem depression. And also like post partem depression, it doesn't affect every single woman.

Depression is not real, it is just Xenu trying to trick you. I know the history of mental illness, you don't.

Don't be a glib Matt....I mean Jill

Ya, like anyone is going to listen to Tom Cruise. Actors should stick to acting.

That was just me making a joke, I was looking for an opportunity to bring out my Tom Cruise material. :-)

Welcome back, Cameron, you were not banned for long, I see

Cameron, I thought you were banned.

Who cares, I love Cameron!
*blowskiss*

I don't.

Apparently, but I dont think he likes you either.. Sorry Heather.

No sweat. He/she doesn't like babies either.

I think it's a girl.

Mmmm, I think you are wrong again Heather. And yes he/she does like babies. We're not always debating about babies, we're debating about feti. There is a differemce. (lol, I know Cam's sex...hahaha and you dont)

I am not going any further out of respect for Jill and her site.

lmao, welcome back Cameron!!

And actually now the thread is about depression, which I know alot about actually.

Hello, Kim, it is me... lol

I am sad I missed the bra burnings and chaos. Damn finals!

*Waves back*

Let the mayhem begin...

Jill,

I was recently at a "feminist" blog disussing this issue. They called me some of the most vile, disgusting things, mocked my religon and made fun of aborted babies. I was quickly banned even though I was completely respectful. I now have little or no respect for the other side at all.

Did you ever?

Hi jasper.

What about people who are acutally (adults) batteling clinical/major depression now? Why are y'all not screaming for research on those cases as well?

Jasper:
So you are telling me that because of one pro-choice blog who's members got a bit grouchy, you've lost respect for the whole pro-choice movement?

Hey Jasper, I would never do that to you. I like hearing VALID arguments from pro-lifers as long as the argument doesnt involve God or religion.

Stop post-abortion depression? Stop calling the women who have them selfish baby-killing whores then! Simple as that.

jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves.

testing? testing?

Wait! The abortionists are the ones that call you baby killers.

sweet! it finally worked. and in all fairness, i just have one question... why is it ok to legislate issues of personal morality? realistically it just doesnt make sense. im not going to get into my personal views on abortion (mostly because theyre so confusing i dont think i understand them) but its like if we legislated monogamy because the ten commandments say "thou shalt not commit adultery"... its just unamerican and violates some of the precepts this nation was founded on.

"jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves."
----------------------------------------

What is that supposed to mean exactly?

Umm, no. They say terminating a pregnancy, you are the ones who say baby killer and throw pictures of aborted fetuses at us.

Hi Heather,

How the little baby doing?

Kim said:

"So you are telling me that because of one pro-choice blog who's members got a bit grouchy, you've lost respect for the whole pro-choice movement?"

No, it's not just the blog. I think their suffering from (MCS) misplaced compassion syndrome (from HisMan or Jill I think), but their viscousness leads me to believe that they know that their in the wrong.

I would much rather see research money go toward post-partum depression, as well, and other forms of proven depression. I wouldn't mind having a certain amount of money, however, go toward proving or disproving the existence of post abortion depression. Personally, if depression occurs, I am wont to think that it's caused by people in the pro-life movement telling people who've aborted that they are evil for having done so, and that they SHOULD feel bad. These people don't let those who've aborted move on. They keep dragging them back to the horrifying time of having been pregnant and scared and MAKE the be depressed. No wonder these pro-lifers think there's a link. They force a lot of the links. I'm not saying that it's not impossible for a woman to feel depression of her own accord, but I think the majority of the cases occur from pro-lifers forcing guilt upon an individual.

jasper, did you just say we shouldnt have compassion for women?

You guys say you are pro woman??? I doubt that. Why did abortionist Brian L. Finkle molest and rape his patients for YEARS before he was busted? Because he knew that he would get away with it. Where were NARAL and NOW when these women were begging for assistance?

blaming one persons actions on a whole political movement is like me saying youre a member of the Westboro Baptist Church because you are pro life... fallacious and unneccesarily insulting.

"jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves"

you're exactly right Heather. My church reaches out to woman in all kinds of circumstances (including post abort), they're always their to help..... but their side will lead them to the abortion mill and send them on their way

Only if they choose it

Have any of you pro-choice people ever gone to sites and actually read about what abortionists have to say about women?[Behind our backs,of course] Most of them HATE us !!!!

What he did was wrong, Heather. We don't condone that. The vast majority of pro-choicers advocate any type of counseling that a post-abortive woman may need. Whether or not she needs it because of her own actions or the influence of pro-lifers telling her she is evil for her actions is the question. I, as a pro-choicer, would always be open to any woman after an abortion to come to me and talk. I wouldn't berate her for her feelings OR actions. Nor would I tell her that her actions were evil, selfish, or wrong.

jasper, thats just not true, theres no push (at least at planned parenthood) to have abortions. i took my sister there to look at options after she was raped (then found out it was a false negative on the pregnancy test) and all i can say is while i wasnt privy to most of the conversations they presented all the options and just let her choose. they were polite, respectful, and didnt push any agenda.

Heather did you know that most rapes go un-reported becuase women feel guilty about it, like it's their fault (& it isnt). I am not suprised that these women did not report him. I mean think about it for a second, they were seeing a doctor. Who would believe me over him? is what they're thinking in their minds.

Think.

Abortionist Edward Allred referrs to his patients as "tramps" and "dogs" on a regular basis. Again I ask, where are NARAL and NOW? Is this acceptable?

Mike said:
they were polite, respectful, and didnt push any agenda

Mike, the overwhelming number of abortions are elective. If their so respectful, then they shouldn't have any trouble showing woman the ultra-sound. (which they are totally against.)

heather, i dont agree at all. i think youre misguided and allow yourself to be influenced by any propaganda you encounter. dont. thats no way to live your life. sit back, look at why people are saying what theyre saying, check their sources, and discount them if they dont have any. better yet, read the constitution, and all the amendments, ask someone for help if you need it to understand (not calling you stupid, its just 1700's lawyerese and i have a hard time with it) and make your own decisions about whether or not a fetus is legally eligible for personhood. if not, and youre still pro life, see if you think it is a protectable interest of the state. then read some AMA medical texts on pregnancy and fetal development, actually understand the various stages of pregnancy, and what the fetus is in each. its important to form your own opinions on issues this complex, heated, and saturated with propaganda from all sides. read roe v wade, doe v wade and roe v casey. all important decisions, long and boring yes, but theres a reason the supreme court justices made it to where they are... they are the most knowledgeable people in this nation when it comes to constitutional law.

thanks for reading all that. i know it was a hellishly long post.

Alyssa, I don't call women whores or baby killers. I know of plenty of people that do. Trust me,they aren't picketing clinics either. This is their personal opinion. A lot of people are afraid to speak out against abortion. They will voice their disgust in private though. They are allowed to think what they want.

Mike, That's not the case.

"Abortionist Edward Allred referrs to his patients as "tramps" and "dogs" on a regular basis. Again I ask, where are NARAL and NOW? Is this acceptable?"

again, im going to say this. that was ONE deranged individual. "rev" Phelps is pro life, therefore you agree that homosexuality is the reason american soldiers are dying and that everyone who lives in this country is condemned to hell.

"Mike, the overwhelming number of abortions are elective. If their so respectful, then they shouldn't have any trouble showing woman the ultra-sound. (which they are totally against.)"

jasper, im going to say again, im neither pro choice or pro life, but in terms of strict legality it is unconstitutional for any adult of sound mind to undergo a medical procedure against their will, you cannot legally make anyone look at, or read anything, and despite it being wrong on that level, places like planned parenthood hold choice above all else, and let a woman make her own decision, not trying to pressure her in any way, this being an obvious attempt to push them away from abortion.

Heather, I never said you were one of the many that refers to women as whores or baby killers. But you do seem to have an agenda to insist that people who get abortions "should feel guilty and bad for what they did", which definitely can lead to depression (you telling them this can lead to it, not the actions themselves). But here you are, yelling at Hal about what he and his wife decided to do together to better their family. That's trying to force guilt upon him. They made the choice that was best for them. I respect their decision. You did tell him that he should be feeling guilty, which IS the problem. You may not be calling him names, but you are trying to force undue guilt upon him and his wife, which is something that I fight wholeheartedly.

heather, what isnt the case? did you even read that post?
im saying review FACTS not others opinions, then make your decisions.

Mike,

Are you telling me Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts don't know the law. Theres nothing in the constition that implies that it is ok to abort babies. (Death by Privacy is a long reach). Read the Blackmun papers, ..they pulled this out of thin air.

Heather, you're right about one thing:"They will voice their disgust in private though. They are allowed to think what they want."

We're allowed to think what we want. And we don't believe that abortion is murder, while you do. You pawn it off as fact. It's an opinion. We think what we want because we're allowed to. Amen.

jasper, when did i say anything remotely like that? i said that the supreme court is the best and brightest when it comes to constitutional law... quite the opposite of what you seem to be trying to imply came from my mouth.

Abortionists prey on patients because of shame. I don't know of too many women that are proud of their abortions. So, if an abortionist molests his patients, most women will keep it quiet.Brian Finkle even got a few of them to have consensual sex with him. He referred to himself as 'The King of the Pelvis.'Now he's in prison for 35 years. Google his name. I hope you do.

Abortion is not murder. Murders are illegal in every state. It is a killing. Not all killings are illegal. Look at self defense, it is a killing, but is not illegal either.

"and let a woman make her own decision, not trying to pressure her in any way, this being an obvious attempt to push them away from abortion."

yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don't intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt.

Once again, Not all abortionists "prey" on their victims. That's like saying all pediatricians are molesting their patients. Yes it happens, and it is horrible. Not all people are evil like you think they are.

Heather, again, we HATE what Finkle did to those women. He DID prey on their vulnerabilities. Unwanted and unplanned pregnancy must be the most terrifying thing EVER. He is wrong to take advantage of them in that condition. Of COURSE they wanted to keep their abortions under the radar, people like YOU want to make them feel guilty about them!! I know most women would keep the abortion secret just so they could avoid scathing remarks and crude remarks about their characters from people who want to make them feel bad for a choice that in all likelihood was the best one they could make.

yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don't intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt.
_______________________________

Jasper, sex is not a consent to pregnancy, even in marriage. Sorry. My mother had sex with my father and didnt intend to have a baby with him.

It's easy to separate sex from responsibility if you're a man. It's ok to make women take the brunt of it, right? Sick.

Finkle called his abortion clinic 'The vaginal vault.' He bragged to fellow inmates about how much fun he had working in the abortion industry. He told one inmate about how easy it was to receive b----[slang for oral sex] from women in need of abortions. He stated, "Those tramps will do anything."

midnite678

I would argue that Abortion is murder.
"to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously"

Well, There are many more. I gotta go dig em up.

"yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don't intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt."

youre making sex a scapegoat issue. our culture isnt corrupt. the problem with america is the same thing that make it great, it is a massively diverse society, without uniform culture or cultural norms, so everyone perceives everything different from what they believe as amoral. america is corrupt because it is human nauture to foster corruption. that is the one universal in humanity other than sex. talk to a muslim person or a hassidic jew, and theyll tell you that almost everything christians do is morally bankrupt or fundamentally misguided. who are you to say who is right or wrong? only god can judge.

Cam, no, I'm not opposed to research for post-partum mothers OR post-abort woman.

heather, you are flogging this one misguided, demented individual's terrible misdeeds to death like it has something to do with the issue. in my opinion, he has nothing to do with the pro choice movement any more that Mao Tse Tung did. drop it. most pro choicers are acting out of what they believe to be the best interests of women, and i dont see anything wrong with their intentions.

Hey Jasper,

What about men that "abort" their children like my father did to me? HUH? He found out my mother was pregnant and walked away never to be heard from again UNTIL I contacted him three years ago.

Another young woman posted on a site about abortionist Laurence Reich. The woman said that Dr. Reich had just finished her abortion procedure. She said that she was still on the operating table with her feet in the stirrups.She remembered feeling uncomfortable when Dr. Reich leaned over and invited her to lunch. The woman was still spread eagle and thought, EEEEEWWWWWW! I have just been violated!!Google his name too.

Mike said:

"the problem with america is the same thing that make it great, it is a massively diverse society, without uniform culture or cultural norms, so everyone perceives everything different from what they believe as amoral"

No Mike that is not correct, simply having a diverse society does not make it great, it is a commoness in our beliefs and ideas. And morality had alot to do with it.

Personally, I'm grateful for people like Mike who would support my decision either way if an unplanned pregnancy occurred. I have no respect for people who think it's my obligation to restrict my whole life for 3/4 of a year to please the guilt-distributing masses. I refuse to feel guilty for something that in my subjective viewpoint is not and has not ever been murder. In the very closest approximation, it's more eviction of a tenant that overstays its welcome and infringes on the property more than it is allowed by the landlady. The fact that it dies as a result of eviction is irrelevant.

Mike,you wish I was.

Mike, I will not drop it. It's the truth.

Once again Heather, NOT ALL abortion doctors are going to do this. There are some sick people in the world, but not all are evil.

It may be true about what this one individual did. We LOATHE him for his actions and words. But he is not indicative of the whole pro-choice movement and never will be. We support sexual and reproductive empowerment for all women, whether it be keeping or terminating a pregnancy. The support exists for both choices on our side.

I am trying to point out that your "beloved abortion doctors" are your worst enemy.

heather, it may be true, but it is not a universal truth. lets say that because i am catholic, and because i have been in jail, that all catholics have been in jail, or everyone in jail is catholic. that is no less ridiculous than what you are doing.

Alyssa said: "I have no respect for people who think it's my obligation to restrict my whole life for 3/4 of a year to please the guilt-distributing masses."

It's all about you, isn't it Alyssa?

Or saying that all Baptists hate the troops just because Fred Phelps does.

"No Mike that is not correct, simply having a diverse society does not make it great, it is a commoness in our beliefs and ideas. And morality had alot to do with it."

a diverse society enables america to do many things other nations simply cant. we have more cultural breadth than any other nation i know about with the possible exception of england, and only really in london. but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality. even christian white americans, which many think of as the "real" americans disagree on almost every political and social issue (like abortion or same sex marriage) to a degree where it is blatantly obvious that there is little common ground. to fail to admit that is simply fallacious.

Heather did I say I loved abortion doctors? No, I did not. I am not putting words in your mouth, so dont put words in my mouth. I wish that abortions happened less, but unill people can be better educated in Birth control and sex, it is something that the public will have to deal with. Not to mention, it is still legal, and it is the woman in questions choice, not yours.

"but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality", yes, there sure is Mike.

"Or saying that all Baptists hate the troops just because Fred Phelps does."

fred phelps isnt a baptist any more than osama bin laden is. frankly im suprised the real baptist church allows him to even use the name. if he called himself catholic i would make a career out of informing people that we neither sanction his actions nor hold any affiliation to him. hes a deranged idiot who corrupts the beautiful, loving verses laid down by our lord and saviour into hateful vile rants designed to tear society apart and breed hate for your neighbor. my god is a loving god, apparently he isnt worshipping the same one.

Many former abortion clinic nurses testified about abortionists making inappropriate comments about patients. One nurse said that the abortionist would always make comments about the women's sexy legs. Another stated "If the woman was attractive, he would find a way to be alone with her." Yet another said that in closed quarters,the abortionist always called the patients s----.

'"but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality", yes, there sure is Mike.'

and what would that be? surely not pro choice or pro life, for or against homosexual unions, pro peace or pro war, for or against social welfare programs, religion or any other issue i can think of.

Heather my god, drop it! Not all doctors are like that. GROW UP. Its like me saying all pediatricians are child molesters that try to be alone with the little children to have "their way with them". Seriously, you are being ignorant and ridiculous at the moment.

I actually have no idea why Phelps chooses to call his church a Baptist church. But I'm sure all Baptists really hate that he put so much unwarranted hatred upon the rest of them.

im done with heather until she raises a valid point about the issue rather than holding up pictures of sinful misogynists.

thank you for actually debating points instead of people, jasper.

i think he was raised baptist and adopts their service and some of their sacraments, or whatever you protestant heretics call them ;). and somehow he thinks that makes him a baptist.

Mike, I was done with you a while ago. You guys don't want to hear the ugly truth. I understand.

kind of like if i grew a beard, moved to a farm and called myself amish

It's more about me than it will ever be about you, Jasper. You'll never have to put your life and livelihood on the line for ANYTHING other than yourself. So don't be so quick to judge. I fully intend on sacrificing myself for another being someday, but only when I am ready, not when YOU or any other judgmental man thinks I'm ready. Being able to conceive is not a license for forced motherhood. It's a perversion of motherhood. Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy undermines the true beauty of a woman choosing to sacrifice herself for nine months for a child. Forced "blessings" aren't blessings at all.

Midnite,Mike......no!

Have you seen the documentary "The Most Hated Family in America" from the BBC? Phelps is one hateful SOB.

Abortionist Steven Pack attempted to murder his girlfriend after she refused to abort his child. What a nice guy.

alyssa, you raise a good point... one of the things i find most abberant about america is how we treat women in general, but specifically when theyre pregnant. my mom basically lost her job for getting pregnant when i... well... happened, and as a result we got stuck back on welfare by the time i was born. do people really care so much about profits that theyre willing to fire women for providing a neccesary function to the continuation of society? really... a few months maternity leave as a government mandate is all i ask.

I have 4 so far. Shall I go on? I hope you run their names, if you think this is untruthful info.

I give up on you Heather you are rambling about shit that doesnt matter, And by the way did you know that saddam hussein, timothy mcveigh, osama bin laden and stalin were pro life?

How does that make you feel? I wouldnt want them agreeing with anything I thought.

The ugly truth that there are a handful of abortion docs out there that rape women and call them whores. Just like there are a handful of investment bankers that will take your money and you'll never see them again. And a handful of policemen out there that will beat the hell out of you for no good reason. This doesn't mean that they're all bad.

"And a handful of policemen out there that will beat the hell out of you for no good reason."

i take issue to that statement... theres more than a handful.

seriously, if you already have me cuffed, and i wasnt doing anything violent (i was actually passed out in the middle of someones front lawn) why knock me over when you tell me to stand up, and why kick me until i got up?

Heather I dont care to run their names through google. give it a damn rest, you're quite obnoxious, you know that? I wish I could ramble on about shit that doesnt matter all the time too

"Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy undermines the true beauty of a woman choosing to sacrifice herself for nine months for a child"

I'm not forcing you. If you chose to have sex with a man, you may get pregnant. And if you get pregnant, thats a blessing, I didn't force it on you at all. You made that choice.

Right back at you guys.

jasper, do you advocate legislation against homosexuality (not the marriage) or premarital sex?

Oh, and Jasper? When I said "my, me, I", I was using myself as an example of a woman. I don't think any woman, including myself, should be forced to undergo a pregnancy.

"jasper, do you advocate legislation against homosexuality (not the marriage) or premarital sex?"

No, and this has nothing to do with killing babies.

no, but it does help me understand where youre coming from on this issue.

Jasper, it might be more of a blessing if pregnancy only lasted a week and didn't jeopardize a woman's life or career. I again assert that you will never be in a position where your life or livelihood will ever be threatened by another being using your body to survive. But forcing someone to endure something for nine months because of one LEGAL act is disgusting and wrong. Abortion is more comparable to eviction, not murder. You're allowed to evict a tenant that isn't paying on time and is jeopardizing your livelihood, the same with a fetus. ESPECIALLY if it's using personal resources.

"I don't think any woman, including myself, should be forced to undergo a pregnancy."

I don't either, but if you sleep with a man, you chose to possibly be pregrant. You were not forced.

Heather I am trying to have a civilized adult conversation with you. and you are rambling worse than my five year old cousin. Grow up and then I'll talk to you.

Jasper, once again, Sex = a consent to pregnancy. It is a consent to sex and that is it. You know a woman can remove her consent from sex at any time and if the man doesnt stop it is considered rape.

Abortionist Ivan Namihas impregnated 2 of his abortion patients. He was investigated by Prime time in 1993. His patients said that he rarely wore gloves. Another woman said that Namihas stated " I want you to masturbate for me." "I'll tell you if you have done it correctly." In addition to that, he molested several patients. Does anyone see a pattern?

You're right, I'm not forced to sleep with a man. Neither am I forced to gestate while men can sit back and watch me suffer for an act that is equally shared by both men and women. If men and women are to be truly equal, women have to have the opportunity to remain nulliparous. When a fetus lives off of your blood supply and your career/life, you can comment. It's easy for men to be pro-life. They'll never be directly affected.

"Jasper, it might be more of a blessing if pregnancy only lasted a week and didn't jeopardize a woman's life or career"

again, you're think about yourself and not the baby you brought into the world.

"Abortion is more comparable to eviction, not murder. You're allowed to evict a tenant that isn't paying on time and is jeopardizing your livelihood, the same with a fetus. ESPECIALLY if it's using personal resources."

but it the case of pregnancy, you forced the tenant to live within your body, it wasn't his choice and on that basis, you have no right to kill him.

alyssa, at least according to genesis, the womans pain of pregnancy and childbirth arent a blessing, they are gods punishment/curse for eves original sin.

Heather -

You GO girl!

Now, let me ask all the pro-choicers a question. Why is it okay for you guys to bring up abortion clinic bombers, but we can't point out the bad apples on your side?

See, this is called being a hypocrite.

Or, are you afraid we will expose more victims from abortionist than you have for clinic bombers.

Jasper when you grow a uterus, you can have a say so in abortions. Until then, your vote in null and void. Sorry

Like I said, Jasper, even though I may have sex, I didn't force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. Fine and good. It may have a right to live in your opinion. Even better. So take it out of my body alive and allow it to live if it wants (not that it can "want" anything at these early stages). Whether or not it does is irrelevant, because at that point, as two "human beings", both I and the embryo have equal rights.

Valerie, it's fine for you guys to bring up the names of bad people on "our side". Just don't say that the whole prochoice movement is like them, much as I don't believe you or Heather are anything like those clinic bombers at all.

Valerie, have you ever had a CLOSE family friend die from an abortion clinic bombing? I have when Rudolph bombed the one in B'ham. The cop that was working was my mother's partner & I grew up calling Uncle. He was trying to protect women from the pro-life people that stand outside that clinic and yell "whore or slut" at them. Not to mention they throw shit at these women. Do NOT bring that up me.

"Now, let me ask all the pro-choicers a question. Why is it okay for you guys to bring up abortion clinic bombers, but we can't point out the bad apples on your side?"

who said that?
though there is one fundamental difference. these people heather keeps upchucking all over this debate are just twisted individuals that happen to perform abortions. abortion clinic bombers are pro life extremists who take pro life doctrine to the extreme of murdering people. if you wanted a comparable pro choice extremist, find someone who kills or assaults pro lifers picketing PP's. im aware there have been instances of this.

Alyssa-

You seem to be missing the point that pro-life men are protecting the soon to be slaughtered child. Your statement that claims they have no right to this opinon is akin to me bashing a woman from New York working to prevent suffering in Asia.

Our personal experiance does not disallow us the right to stand up for injustice.

Hi Valerie!

Valerie,

I have only seen clinic bombers brought up a couple of times in all the time I've spent on this site. The only time it's been brought up is when someone else rambles on about abortion doctors.

On the other hand, Heather here is fixated on these bad apples and brings them up at least once a week.

He was trying to make a living while protecting women who have rights. Have I said that any of you are like bombers? No, I have not. And Heather is making it out like ALL abortion doctors rape and molest their patients, and that is not true.

"Like I said, Jasper, even though I may have sex, I didn't force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. Fine and good. It may have a right to live in your opinion. Even better. So take it out of my body alive and allow it to live if it wants"

Alyssa, see how silly and cruel you're sounding now? You want sex without responsibilty.

Mike- Indeed there have been several instances of pro-choice violence. I believe the number is in the thousands.

Of course this takes into account "pro-choice" boyfriends attacking their girlfriends for making the "wrong" choice. I'm not sure of the numbers involving pro-choice violence against protesters, but I'm sure we could figure it out with a bit of digging.

Regardless, violence of this sort should never be accepted.

Alyssa -

"I didn't force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. "

How can something that is not alive do anything on their own accord? or, it is alive but not worthy of life? I always get that confused.

"Just don't say that the whole prochoice movement is like them, much as I don't believe you or Heather are anything like those clinic bombers at all."

Then stop saying all us pro-lifers call everyone whores and sluts. Guess what? that not true either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

"Alyssa, see how silly and cruel you're sounding now? You want sex without responsibilty."

Jasper,

Men have sex without responsibility, period.

Lauren, again, read the post I made after that. They can fight for its right to live all they want...just take it out of a woman's body if she doesn't want it there and help it to live if you can. Don't force a woman to endure nine months as a "life-support machine". If it dies, it's regrettable, but at least both fetus/embryo and woman are given the same rights. Neither infringes upon another, even though one might need the other to live.

I have an idea. Pro-choicers will try not to claim that all lifers are trying to blow up abortion clinics if you stop claiming that all doctors who perform abortions are disgusting perverts. I met a very very sweet woman who gave me a gynocological exam at PP who also performed abortions. She was one of the best doctors I that has ever treated me. She had a fantastic bedside manner. And also, they have no qualms about letting people see their ultrasounds. They simply ask whether you want to or not. They give you a choice. That's the point.

I should change that to:

Men CAN have sex without responsibility, period.

Heather, your battle on doctors who perofomr abortions has already been fought and used against you, I came up with the names of something like 15 or so dentists (of course, one stretched the page so a few hours later a new blog post was put up, but thats beside the point).

The point is that there are sick people in every walk of life and there always will be. Saying that the doctors who are screwed up and do horrible things shows that our whole side is wrong is like saying that your whole side is wrong because people bomb clinics and that your side has people like the Phelps. It holds no water and is unneeded.

"Jasper,

Men have sex without responsibility, period."

not good Men.

Mid -

"Valerie, have you ever had a CLOSE family friend die from an abortion clinic bombing? I have when Rudolph bombed the one in B'ham. The cop that was working was my mother's partner & I grew up calling Uncle. He was trying to protect women from the pro-life people that stand outside that clinic and yell "whore or slut" at them. Not to mention they throw shit at these women. Do NOT bring that up me. "

Have you had a friend die from an abortion and a cousin die of complications that resulted from an abortion?

Don't lecture me.

Listen to yourselves. Heather is doing the exact same thing you guys are. You are allsaying we don't care about the woman, that we think she is a whore and a slut, that WE are the ones that cause depression.

Talk about making a generalization about a group of people.

Did I say that You (valerie) or Heather call women who go into Abortion Clinics Sluts or whores? No I did not. And until you've experienced pain like, do not talk to me about it. I've made no "generalizations" about y'all.

Hey midnight,

You're not the only one who's experienced pain here. Plenty of people do. I'm not chastising you or anything, but just keep that in mind.

Valerie, sperm and egg cells are alive, too. Does that make them worthy of life? Tapeworms are alive, too, does that make them worthy of life?

And Jasper, Stephanie is right. Men never have a responsibility during sex. You're asserting that only women do. Sex is an act to enjoy, not to constantly worry about the responsibility of. Or are eating icecream or flying a kite, because they're enjoyable, worthy of responsibility?

Alyssa-

If there was a way for the child to be taken from its mother's womb and then implanted in the womb of another, I would support the action.

As it stands, this is not an option. Lack of this option does not somehow make killing more moral.

It would be like me saying "well you can care about people starving in third world countries, but you have to allow me to kill them because there isn't a better option availible."

Sorry, it just doesn't work.

jasper, you seem to be saying that while women should be held legally accountable for sex, men should only be held morally accountable, how do you reconcile that with notions of universal equality in america?

Valerie,
I am sorry that friend and cousin died from an abortion. That is horrible & rare. But, they chose to have the abortion. Do you think that police officer chose to die by a bomb. You're not using logic here. And I am NOT doing what Heather is doing. I was trying to have a civilized adult conversation with her about the topic. She STARTED and kept repeating the same shit over and over again. Did I do that? No.

You're right Stephanie that is true. But, quite honestly I am beyond pissed off at the moment from the ramblings from Heather and the generalizations made about me.

"I met a very very sweet woman who gave me a gynocological exam at PP who also performed abortions. She was one of the best doctors I that has ever treated me. She had a fantastic bedside manner."

yes, she's looking out for you....

The woman: "now let me spread your legs suction out your baby", or "tear his legs and arms from his body" "it's ok, it really is"

'It would be like me saying "well you can care about people starving in third world countries, but you have to allow me to kill them because there isn't a better option availible."'

are you providing them with aid? if not i consider that negligent homicide. and im not talking about the, "i send 20$ a month" aid. i mean the giving all you have aid. i dont HAVE anything except a computer, some canned food i get from a local food drive and a gas stove that has repeatedly tried to kill me. and i still send part of my financial aid check to sierra leone every semester.

You guys are always talking about "intent", and that's what separates abortion from murder in the case of saving a woman's life versus the life of her fetus. You say it's regrettable when the fetus dies to save the mother. I say that the intent isn't to kill the fetus, it's to reassert bodily autonomy. The fact that it may die as a result is also regrettable. You say it's all about syntax, and I agree. You just think one intent is better or more acceptable.

Mike, the responsibility/rights of men when it comes to pregnancy are very "iffy".

Men have a situation in which they have no say over if a particular child should be born (thanks to abortion), but are forced into responsibility if the woman decides that should be the case.

I believe that every man should be required by law to be a responsible party for the child that he helped create. This means both that the father is automatically responsible financially throughout the pregnancy, and also that he has a say in the outcome of said pregnancy.

Lauren, I am living proof that does not happen. And actually, I am better off for not knowing my real father.

Mid -

"And by the way did you know that saddam hussein, timothy mcveigh, osama bin laden and stalin were pro life? "

And what was this suppose to mean?

Why be mad at me? I am pro-woman.

Mike, not that it's any of your business what my personal contributions are, but our 40 family church works very closely with native missionaries. We will raise 42,000 dollars by the end of July in order to support a center for lepers. So yes, we are giving sacrificially in order to help these people.

If you are interested in helping as well, I can tell you all about Immanuel Paul and his wonderful mission.

The woman gave me a pap smear. She was very sweet. I'm assuming you don't personally know any people who perform abortions. I know several. I get along very well with all of them. They are performing a service. Whether you agree with that service or not, they are saving countless women from back-alley abortions that would kill them AND the fetus. They're doctors. They all went to medical school, studied hard, and are in a field that makes them feel like they are helping people. Just because a doctor performs a service you disagree with doesn't make them a bad person. It makes them different from you. Either you're going to have to live with them and we're going to try and respect each other, or you can just go around claiming that abortionists, who usually also perform very important gynocological roles, are murderers and that women who have abortions should go to jail.

You are mad at me for exposing abortion doctors. Did you not have any idea that they could be this way?

midnite76- I'm not saying that my scenerio always happens. However, fathers are legally responsible for thier offspring after birth. Unless the mother specifically pardons the man from this responsibility (and his rights).

Heather -

Remember they want all abortions to be safe. So of course they want all the bad abortionist outed right? Just like they outed the abortion doctors in NJ for putting a woman in a coma and forcing her to lose her Uterus. oh Wait - that wasn't the pro-choice movement. That's right, the choicers did nothing to help.

You guys said that RTL's throw things at women and call them names. I'm over it. I don't really believe that. I have never done that. I told you guys that the abortionists are the ones calling you whores and tramps. Now,you're mad at me. That makes a lot of sense.

"Whether you agree with that service or not, they are saving countless women from back-alley abortions that would kill them AND the fetus"

the fetus is saved during abortions by doctors? wow

Alyssa -

"Valerie, sperm and egg cells are alive, too. Does that make them worthy of life? Tapeworms are alive, too, does that make them worthy of life? "

Tapeworms stay in the body longer than 9 months and if not removed there is a 100% chance of death in the host body. Not sure that is the same with pregnancy.

See - pregnancy does not cause death. There may be complications. But a tapeworm will cause death if not removed.

See the difference here?

lauren, thats good. all im saying is that removing a fetus from your body and allowing it to die is exactly the same kind of immoral as not contributing as much as you can to the worlds poor. arguably, pregnancy is MORE giving, in that some women actually lay down their lives in an attempt to protect their fetus, and few can say they do the same for any other person.

Alyssa- The debate hinges on if the fetuses right to life overides the mothers right to bodily domain. We say yes. If the mothers life is at risk, the question becomes if right to life of the fetus overides right to life of the mother. In that instance we say no (though some of us personally say yes).

The issue isn't the regrettablility of the death of the child, but rather the balance of rights leading to his death.

No, jasper, but I am saying that if a woman wants an abortion, she's going to get one. I'd rather them be legal so a woman can at least be safe, as opposed to something far more dangerous where you pointlessly lose both fetus and mother in the process.

the father isnt held as accountable as the mother. think about howmany deadbeat and absentee dads there are that arent even charged with neglect. complete double standard based solely on the notion that women are "responsible" for becoming pregnant.

Why was Laurence Reich allowed to keep practicing while accusations of molestation were pending against him? Where were NOW and NARAL?

Valerie, actually, pregnancy causes several times more deaths than an abortion does. It's a low number, but it's still a risk. And even if it doesn't cause death, pregnancy and delivery can severely damage a womans health.

Once again Heather (AND I AM NOT GOING TO REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN)I did not say that you, or anyone on this site has picketed abortion clinics and called the women whores. I said some pro-lifers did this at the Clinic in B'ham. It does happen (by people who take pro-life to the extreme). I did not say You or Valerie did this. QUIT putting words in my mouth.

Also, I am sure Abortionist doctors have said that, and I'm sure many more will. But AGAIN NOT ALL DOCTORS DO THIS.

"No, jasper, but I am saying that if a woman wants an abortion, she's going to get one. I'd rather them be legal so a woman can at least be safe, as opposed to something far more dangerous where you pointlessly lose both fetus and mother in the process."

Is a fetus safe during an abortion too?

Lauren: You are correct, it does not always happen that way. I was simply pointing out that in some cases (like mine) the child is better off not knowing the real father.

Mike, while I agree that the two are similar, the difference is that in most cases the woman does something to contribute to the creation of the problem.

This obviously is not the case with rape.

Regardles, the majority of abortions fit into our analogy the following way:

Our actions create the child who we then refuse to support and allow to die.

This would be like me personally going to India, causing a situation that resulted in the reliance of a person on my support, and then refusing to give support.

Can you see how my responsibility in the situation ups my obligations to the person?

and western colonialism, american importation of diamonds from sierra leone, constant interference in third world politics arent creating the situation? the only difference is scale and duration.

Mike (on deadbeat dads)

I agree that there are far too many men who do not uphold their responsibility. However, simply bearing the child does not make a woman immune to this sort of behavior.

My sister in law divorced her husband, abandoned her children, and moved to Nashville. She did nothing to support her children while she was away. Obviously giving birth to the two did little to force anyone to hold her accountable.

Of course, we all know that it is much easier for a man to skirt duty than a woman because of biology. However, I do not believe that our view should be "if men do it, we should too!" but rather "we need to hold men more accountable".

Midnite- I too grew up without my father at my mother's insistance. Though throughout my time at home I thought this was for the best, I later realized how much I missed by not having him in my life. I'm not saying this is your situation, only that I understand not having a father take responsibility.

Go to 'THE CHOICE BLUES' Actual abortion in progress. Tell me what you think. Warning! Very graphic! Watch as the cervix is pinched.

i think the entire abortion issue is fundamentally scapegoating. "LOOK HOW AMORAL THEY ARE!!!" never looking at everyones failures of accountability, and the fact we are all about as guilty of that abortion for failing to provide for the mothers wellbeing. we have a responsibility, and i dont mean in a christian sense, to provide for the rest of society. you cant create rules for someone unless you are giving them something, you have no authority.

at any rate, im going back to work now. peace all.

Mike, yes there are things that America has done to influence the situation, but the scale of the situation matters greatly.

Pregnancy is a matter of personal responsiblity. While there are sociatal factors, the person is ultimately held responsible for her own actions. In order for the situation to allign, I must have personally done something to create the situation of a specific people.

After review personal obligation we can begin extrapolating to societal obligation.

"That is horrible & rare. "

Death from abortion is rare? Go tell that to the family of these people:

Eurice Agbaaga

Demetrice Andrews

"Gloria"

Mickey Apodaca

"Faith"

Gloria Aponte

Charisse Ards

"Tracy"

Barbara Auerbach

"Isabel"

Jacqueline Bailey

Brenda Banks

"Betty"

Myrta Baptiste

"Monica"

Lisa Bardsley

Junette Barnes

"Lori"

Deanna Bell

"Roxanne"

Brenda Benton

Rosario Bermeo

"Nadine"

Janet Blaum

"Sandra"

Cassandra Bleavins

Linda Boom

"Melinda"

Diane Boyd

"Wanda"

Mary Bradley

Dorothy Brown

"Becky"

Dorothy Bryant

"Stephanie"

Belinda Byrd

Janyth Caldwell

"Dorothy"

Joan Camp

"Annie"

Marla Cardamone

Teresa Causey

"Pamela"

Claudia Caventou

"Beth"

Patricia Chacon

Colleen Chambers

"Ginger"

Sandra Chmiel

"Lynn"

Gwendolyn Cliett

Margaret Clodfelter

"Cindy"

Pamela Colson

"Ellen"

Geneva Colton

Andrea Corey

"Rhonda"

Liliana Cortez

"Amy"

Edith Cote

Shery Cottone

"Carol"

Twila Coulter

"Tammy"

Carol Cunningham

Betty Damato

"Sara"

Mary Ann Dancy

"Audrey"

Angel Dardie

Barbaralee Davis

"Vanessa"

Glenda Davis

"Trish"

Kathy Davis

Margaret Davis

"Penny"

Sharon Davis

"Stacy"

Marina DeChapell

Arlin dela Cruz

"Gail"

Synthia Dennard

"Hallie"

Alerte Desanges

Barbara Dillon

"Teresa"

Laniece Dorsey

"Frances"

Tamika Dowdy

Gwendolyn Drummer

"Donna"

Anjelica Duarte

"Veronica"

Evelyn Dudley

Sherry Emry

"Sylvia"

Georgianna English

"Molly"

Maureen Espinoza

Gladyss Estanislao

"Nancy"

Erna Fisher

"Hope"

Bonnie Fix

Sharon Floyd

"Christie"

Linda Fondren

"Eleanor"

Christella Forte

Janet Foster

"Gina"

Glenna Jean Fox

"Denise"

Jammie Garcia

Josefina Garcia

"Lydia"

Marie Gibson

"Wendy"

Kathleen Gilbert

Christina Goesswein

"Holly"

Gaylene Golden

"Alison"

Maria Gomez

Rita Goncalves

"Roslyn"

Shary Graham

"Kelly"

Doris Grant

Debra Gray

"Jane"

Norma Greene

"Vicki"

Carolina Gutierrez

Angela Hall

"Reanne"

Sharon Hamptlon

"Shirley"

Arnetta Hardaway

Gracealynn Harris

"Jackie"

Wilma Harris

"Eileen"

Sheila Hebert

Donna Heim

"Gwen"

Lou Anne Herron

"Beverly"

Moris Helen Herron

Rhonda Hess

"Amanda"

Betty Hines

"Danielle"
Shirley Hollis

Denise Holmes

"Susan"

Barbara Hoppert

"Elisa"

Mary Ives

Karretu Jabbie

"Colleen"

Louchrisser Jackson

"Janet"

Sandra Kaiser

Elise Kalat

"Mary”

Patricia King

"Vanna"

Giselene Lafontant

Minnie Lathan

"Rebecca"

Barbara Lerner

"Hillary"

Susan Levy

Cora Lewis

"Sherri"

Sara Lint

"Grace”

Maria Lira

Susanne Logan

"Natalie"

Linda Lovelace

"Yvonne"

Debra Lozinski

Dawn Mack

"Elaine"

Michelle Madden

"Tasha"

Sharon L. Margrave

Gail Mazo

"Connie"

Sophie McCoy

"Debbie"

Rita McDowell

Myria McFadden

"Melissa"

Evangeline McKenna

"Priscilla"

Kathy McKnight

Kendra McLeod

"Dawn"

Lynn McNair

"Margaret"

Dawn Mendoza

Yvonne Mesteth

"Diana"

Natalie Meyers

"Irene"

Sandra Milton

Mitsue Mohar

"Hannah"

Ruth Montero

"Leslie"

Denise Montoya

Sylvia Moore

"Mindy"

Christine Mora

"Tia"

Maura Morales

Shelby Moran

"Nicole"

Kathryn Morse

"Jeanette"

Kelly Morse

Loretta Morton

"Brenda"

Kathy Murphy

"Jean"

Dorothy Muzorewa

Guadalupe Negron

"Olivia"

Kimberly Neil

"Barbara"

Germaine Newman

Sara Niebel

"Kristy"

Maria Ortega

"Lucy"

Joyce Ortenzio

Venus Ortiz

"Terri"

Linda Padfield

"Emily"

Mary Ann Page

Mary Paredez

"Patricia"

Shirley Payne

"Marcia"

Mary Pena

DaNette Perguson

"Jasmine"

Erika Peterson

"Paige"

Catherine Pierce

Katrina Poole

"Ilene"

Yvette Poteat

"Rhoda"

Vanessa Preston

Dawndalea Ravenell

"Erica"

Angela Reynolds

"Jaime"

Jacqueline Reynolds

Erica Richardson

"Malorie"

Luz Maria Rodriguez

"April"

Magdalena Rodriguez

Julia Rogers

“Cathy"

Rhonda Rollinson

"Nina"

Allegra Roseberry

Sharonda Rowe

"Carla"

Stayce Ruckman

"Alice"

Rhonda Ruggiero

LaSandra Russ

"Marilyn"

Stella Saenz

"Katherine"

Angela Sanchez

Angela Satterfield

"Julie"

Carole Schaner

"Vivian"

Angela Scott

Jan Simmons

"Fay"

Gloria Small

"Robin"

Deloris Smith

Diane Smith

"Jan"

Margaret Smith

"Laura"

Teresa Smith

Laura Sorrels

"Anita"

Maria Soto

"Miriam"

Kathryn Strong

Jennifer Suddeth

"Lorraine"

Tami Suematsu

"Kimberly"

Yvonne Tanner

Mary Tennyson

"Regina"

Michelle Thames

"Sheryl"

Ingrid Thomas

Magnolia Thomas

"Andrea"

Manuela Torres

"Valerie"

Elizabeth Tsuji

Cheryl Tubbs

"Judy"

Maureen Tyke

"Roseanne"

Cycloria Vangates

Latachie Veal

"Karen"

Cheryl Vosseler

Gail Vroman

Pamela Wainwright

Lynette Wallace

Debra Walton

Nancy Ward

Sheila Watley

Diane Watson

Ingar Weber

Robin Wells

Ellen Williams

Nichole Williams

Sandra Williams

Shirley Williams

Tanya Williamson

Carole Wingo

Virginia Wolfe

Darlene Wood

Gail Wright

Diana Lopez

*Names that are in quotes is because full names were not available, usually because of confidentiality or privacy constraints.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. There are many more.

Lauren: I got lucky, my mother started dating my father when she was two weeks pregnant with me. Although I dont share his genes, he is my father. I met my biological father when I was 19, and he is a piece of shit. I realized then how lucky I was not growing with him.

Valerie, Thanks for the list. I have seen it before. This is a "safe" choice? Time to reevaluate.

"Valerie, actually, pregnancy causes several times more deaths than an abortion does. It's a low number, but it's still a risk. And even if it doesn't cause death, pregnancy and delivery can severely damage a womans health."

You know, I keep hearing this. But have seen no evidence of it. I've looked, but I might be looking in the wrong place. Any chance of where I can verify this info?

Valerie, I asked SoMg the same ? He still can't back it up. He says that abortion can't cause cervical damage. Yet he has no proof.

Give me a bit and I'll find you some sources, Valerie

Do You have proof that it can Heather?

Here's a preliminary piece on basic pregnancy mortality, I'm searching around for things that show the comparison and possibly something more recent, this is from 1999.

Mid -

I agree that sometimes life is better without the father. Did you ever see "Riding in Cars with Boys" or read the book. Perfect example!

Erin -

Thank you.

Heather -

I gave SOMG info proving that statement wrong. Did he ever post after me? I'll try to find it.

BTW - I'm not even suppose to be on here today! I've got tons of work! I'm so addicted.

Quick Google search led me to these statistics:

The risk of abortion complications is minimal; fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[24]

Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries. [25]

Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other types of cancer.[26]

In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[27]

The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[28]

The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.[29]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

And I'm an idiot and forgot to post the link. Dee dee dee.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm

And for abortion, same time frame:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Over the surveillence period, the rough calculations were 1 in every 100000 abortions had related deaths and 11.8 in every 100000 pregnancies had related deaths. This help at all?

Oh, pregnancy isn't dangerous at all...hmm....considering it was the leading cause of death of women in their child-bearing years for the longest time before technology ended the outright "holocaust" (see how easy it is to just throw that word around? Hmm...I'm sure you won't object to me using this since it's easy for you to throw it around with abortion) of women dying to be slaves to fetuses and a male-dominated society. Abortion is just one more technology aiding in keeping women from dying due to pregnancy, labor, and childbirth. But it's still a medical procedure, which does entail risks. People DIE from tonsillectomies, all procedures carry a risk. But this so-called natural process of pregnancy was the leading cause of death for women until medicine advanced. This doesn't lessen its power to put a woman at risk. It only means that we have the power to curb that risk, which abortion does significantly. (How many women get pre-eclampsia after an abortion? Blood clots? Die during labor?...hmmm?)

Hal,
Isn't the Guttmacher Institute the right arm of Planned Parenthood? I know us lifers are gonna give some links to pro-life leaners also, just wondering.
Erin,
Is a baby a life?
I understand where you're coming from with the "more deaths from pregnancies", but what about the deaths of the babies from the abortions? As a mother, I would certainly lay down my life for the birth of my child. Death from an abortion, I think not.
To all:
How do I make sure I post w/o sounding nasty? Am new to this whole thing. Thanks :)

no, the guttmacher institute is a private research firm that pretty much just objectively polls about everything you can think about.

Janet, that's great that you'd choose to lay down your life for your child. That's all well and good, and I respect your decision. What I don't respect is that you expect that same devotion from all women. Pregnancy isn't supposed to be perverted into something that women should be "expected" to endure upon its beginning. What makes motherhood so beautiful is the WILLINGNESS for a woman to sacrifice herself to another being for nine months, not because she is forced to house it by her government against her will.

Janet- I already have a feeling we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that my right to bodily integrity quashes the rights of a few cells in my uterus. I feel that until a fetus is viable, until it can survive without leeching from my body, that it does not have rights. This is where the main arguement between pro-lifers and pro-chiocers comes in- and it's something that we'll probably never truly rectify.

Hi Alyssa,
Speaking of technology, because of it, most women do not die from pregnancy.
Yes, abortion is a medical procedure. And abortion clinics do not have the standard of a hospital that would perform other types of medical procedures.
Because it is a medical procedure, I wonder why PP and such are in such a tizzy about underage girls not being able to get this medical procedure done, especially since they are just looking out for women's health.
About women being a slave to a fetus...
Wha-?! How did the fetus get there in the first place?

Hal, the comment that "Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries." is a complete misrepersentation of the facts.

Let's look at the studies:

First ectopic pregnancies:

"Epidemiological findings indicate that the two principal risk factors for EP(ectopic pregnancy) as reproductive rather than contraceptive failure are a history of genital infection or tubal surgery and smoking. Quantitatively, their role in the risk of EP is similar: each explains approximately one-third of EP. They have a causal role in EP risk. The other risk factors are the woman's age and her history of spontaneous or elective abortion. These risk factors together explained 76% of EP"

Now low birth weight, prematurity:

" Women whose pregnancy is terminated by dilatation and evacuation may have an increased risk of subsequent premature delivery and a low birthweight baby. Very little has been published and no conclusions can be made regarding the effects of instillation procedures and repeat abortions on future reproduction."

Now let's look at the numbers:

" Three percent (3%) of the women who underwent a dilation-and-evacuation procedure developed complications, compared to 5% of the women who underwent suction curettage. Two percent (2%) of the women who underwent a second trimester abortion developed an infection, the most common complication, compared to 3% of the women who underwent a first trimester abortion."

Francis R.M. Jacot, Claude Poulin, Alain P. Bilodeau, Martine Morin, Suzie Moreau, Francoise Gendron, Dominique Mercier. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. Feb 1993 v168 n2 p633(5). >

Erin -

Actually no, it doesn't help. Here is what I found on the second website for abortion info.

"Case-fatality rates for 1998--1999 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the four nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown."

---- the four non reporting states being Alaska, California, Oklahoma and New Hampshire

"Data by state of residence are incomplete because three states (Alaska, California, and New Hampshire) did not report and five states (Arizona, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, and Massachusetts) did not provide any data concerning the residence status of all women obtaining abortions in their state. "

"CDC identified 22 maternal deaths for 1998 and 17 maternal deaths for 1999 that were thought to be potentially related to abortion. These maternal deaths were identified either by some indication of abortion on the death certificate or from information such as a news report associated with the death."

umm... 1998 and 1999 are the years that they can't calculate because 4 states didn't report! California being one of them!

Sorry - but that proves nothing other than the states do not provide the government with adequate informtion in order to make these assumptions.

Oh thank you Lauren!

Lauren, we're not claiming that there is no risk with abortion, we're simply pointing out that research shows that pregnancy carried to term and delivered is 12 times more likely to cause death than an abortion. And I had to undergo an abortion- I had a tubal pregnancy- and they give everyone antibiotics after the procedure. An infection usually develops if a woman doesn't keep up with the medication that the clinic gives her.

Heather4Life: I never said that abortion CANNOT cause cervical damage. It can and does. I said that full-term childbirth causes MORE cervical damage.

Do you have a reading disability, or are you just trying to appear more stupid than you are? If the latter, it really isn't necessary.

It may have gotten there by an act of sex, but many do not place the burden of responsibility on said act like you do. Like consent can be taken away during sex, consent can be removed during pregnancy. Much like how someone can agree to donate an organ, then decide at the last moment not to, because it is their organ and their decision what to do with it. Whether or not the other party dies due to said decision is not the donating party's responsibility, even if they are responsible for the other party's predicament. My uterus belongs to me, and no one else. I can choose to allow a biological freeloader (which is what a fetus/embryo is, and that is undebatable) to use it for nine months, but I'm not obligated.

Valerie- I'm in the process of searching for more recent information. It may take some time to find a source that we will both find credible and reliable. Give me a little while, I'm trying to study for my final right now too :-)

Well, if the Government cant make assumptions, why are you?

Valerie, I see it's time to quote JAMA again:

"Legal-abortion mortality between 1979 and 1985 was 0.6 death per 100,000 procedures, more than 10 times lower than the 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births between 1979 and 1986. Serious complications from legal abortion are rare. " From JAMA, Vol. 268 No. 22, December 9, 1992.

Do you know what JAMA stands for, dear?

Erin, I was simply pointing out that the information given by the AGI was factually inaccurate.

Also, do you have any studies to back up your claim that most post abortive infections are the result of patient combliability?

the thing about quoting individual physicians is it doesnt neccesarily mean what they say is true. thats why you only quote peer reviewed and AMA approved journal articles.

SoMg, Testy testy. Don't get angry with me because you lied.

Heather Said
You are mad at me for exposing abortion doctors. Did you not have any idea that they could be this way?

Want me to post statistics on the Catholic priests who molest children? Want me to post details on the times that the Vaticin has done nothing about it? Do you need me to post exerpts from some of the trials? I can: frankly, if you belive that all abortion doctors are bad because of a handful, you must also believe that all Catholic priests are bad because of a handful. Or are only those who disagree with you bad?

You can't judge an entire segment of people by a few bad guys. I wouldn't say that all priests are child molesters, I know that to be untrue. So knock off the accusations unless a) you can back it up with evidence, and b) you can prove that the vast majority of abortion doctors are rapists/hate women.

This is a pro-life site. I found it appropriate to discuss corrupt abortionists here.

Lauren-

No, I don't. I simply have the knowledge that bacteria causes infections and anti-biotics kill infections and therefore if a patient is taking their antibiotics it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will develop one. Not impossible- but nearly.

Alyssa -

"Oh, pregnancy isn't dangerous at all...hmm....considering it was the leading cause of death of women in their child-bearing years for the longest time before technology"

Leading cause? I'm not being condesending here, but that is the first time I've heard that. I've done some research on Midwifery from mid-evil times to present. Now, pregnancy wasn't as easy as it is now, and there were more deaths as a result so it is possible, but do you know where I can find that info?

(I did the midwifery research for a book I'm trying to write, and this info would be beneficial.)

Mike, I had 4 peer reviewed studies, and ended with a quote from a physician that supported the findings of the studies. The physicians quote was simply in addition to my other evidence.

The studies were compiled by me, not him. He simply agreed with my findings.

JAMA - anyone can google that.

And you found it necessary to make unfounded accusations about an entire industry as well, Heather?

Erin, I'm going to look up some studies on postabortive infection and get back to you.

I haven't seen Cameron. I think Jill officially "tossed" him. YAY!

Sounds good, Lauren. Thanks.

Will do, Valerie. I'm on the hunt for information about pre-technology death from pregnancy. :D

SOMG:

JAMA - Journal of the American Medical Association.

So you are telling me that the AMA can get more info than the CDC can? Because California, New Hampshire, Alaska and Oklahoma do not report abortion stats. And they didn't just stop reporting in the late '90's. They don't report.

I know, you are having problems reading, like you did when I proved that abortion causes more cervical damage than full term births. I'll repost from the CDC's report on abortions.

"Case-fatality rates for 1998--1999 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the four nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown."