A May 16 article in wwweek.com spotlighted Grayson Dempsey, the "self-proclaimed pro-choice extremist" 2004 founder of Backline, a pro-abortion hotline.

Interestingly, Dempsey is now six months pregnant. Responding to the question, "Has your pregnancy shifted your views?" she said:

My pregnancy has made me so adamantly engaged in the work that I do that it is unbelievable. I can't imagine going through it without the support I have from everybody in my family and in my life, and I can't imagine going through it unless I was committed to being a mom. I threw up every day for three months. I cried for no reason. I'm gaining weight.

I read this "poor me" or "pregnancy is unbearable" lament from pro-abort women a lot, trying to skew a natural condition into something beyond them. Examples from this blog:

"[I]f I were to ever tell [my fiancee] I couldn't continue a pregnancy, it would be because I COULDN'T do it - emotionally, or physically, or mentally. He wouldn't want me to sacrifice my mental, emotional or physical well-being for a fetus."

"I went through a month and a half of pregnancy and I was nauseous from the moment I woke up in the morning to the moment I went to bed at night, I couldn't eat much of anything more than ginger ale and soda crackers, I was constantly exhausted, and cramping like crazy. Would my fetus have lived to gestate fully? Probably. But no one can tell me that I can't get rid of something that is making my body that horribly miserable."

"[I[f abortion were outlawed and I becamse pregnant, I would find every way possible to end it. I dislike the condition...."

"I loathe the idea of being in such a weakened state."

My conclusion? Modern-day feminists have degenerated into frail creatures, the very weaklings that sexists caricature.

But they're forced to take this position to bolster their claim that abortion is as good as or better an option than pregnancy.

How ironic.

ME ME ME ME ME!

What a great observation! I believe much of their laments are the result of a self fulfilling prophesy. They believe pregnancy is a horrible disease to be avoided at all costs, and try their darndest to make it that way!

Trust me, I've been through a horrible pregnancy, and it is 100% about your attitude. If I could stay on hospital bedrest for 7 weeks, bleeding and laboring, a woman can survive a normal pregnancy.

I don't say this to belittle the trials of pregnancy, but only to highlite the fact that a huge part of the "suffering" of pregnancy is due to the way we view our final outcome.

If we believe the child to be a valuable being, even at the earliest stages, it is much easier to perserver.

"My conclusion? Modern-day feminists have degenerated into frail creatures, the very weaklings that sexists cariciature. How ironic."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're right. Heck! Brain-dead women have children all the time! When women say that the biggest event in their life was the birth of their children, I always have to wonder if they were ever capable of achieving more than a drooling flatliner. Big deal!
Women who whine about something as trivial and meaningless as pregnancy and delivery ARE worthless and weak. Do they find their other mindless biologigal processes - like digestion or respiration - to be an achivement? They should get out see what REAL LIFE is like.

Do you think God in His infinite wisdom intentionally made pregnancy difficult so that at it's end, the birth of a human being, the mother would be internally rewarded with the knowledge that she did it, she faithed it, she endured? How much more would she value that child, having gone through the travails of pregnancy?

My wife, having had five children, would not trade her kids for anything and they were a gift. Jesus Christ endured the suffering on the cross because He knew the reward set before him. To not understand God's ways is to rob oneself of becoming truly rich.

Women who want to terminate their children because it's too hard, are not only physically weak of their own choosing but are utterly impoverished in soul and spirit and don't even realize it.

These self-absorbed women not only steal another's life, they rob themselves of the opportunity to become fully human and fully alive.

I am not saying that a woman has to have children to live a rewarding life, however, Who do they think allowed them and gave them the privilege of becoming pregnant? Peter Pan?

Yes, the women's movement has been the biggest lie since Eve bought into satan's lie that she would be like God if she ate the apple. Solomon was right when he said there is nothing new under the sun.

"Do they find their other mindless biological processes - like digestion or respiration - to be an achievement?"

I, for one, would consider it quite the achievement if my digestion or respiration resulted in the creation of a new human being.

Laura, what a statement. What makes you think these women don't understand "real life?" Although there have been some "pregnancy is hard" type comments, I think most women who don't want children don't want them because they don't want children, not because they don't think they can't handle being pregnant.

"worthless and weak?" I thought all life was precious.

Hal, I think Laura was being satirical.

Laura,

Your post reveals how you absolutely despise women.

Bearing children is a gift from God.

You have been convinced by the women's movement (and I really hate to call it that because it's not about women, it's about power) that being a mother is somehow beneath the dignity of a woman.

Your only progeny are the cells in your brain that have been washed in the propaganda of the liberal, left-wing, men-haters of our age.

You deprive yourself of the woman God intended for you to be, you know it, you deny it, you are truly to be pitied.

If I had been determined to have a child, I would have dealt with it. But Jill, you have no right to judge me on how incredibly sick I was while I was pregnant. And NO RIGHT to call me a weak, frail feminist. NO ONE has the right to call me weak. I don't tolerate that, EVER.

Erin, I don't doubt for a second that you were very sick. Hypermesis drives many women to abortion.

My point was that perspective changes how we feel sickness. If we see the sickness as an indication that things are going well (it is) and that we will deliver a healthy child, dealing with sickness becomes much easier.

When we are told that our children are the enemy and that pregnancy is a nightmare, it becomes much easier to focus on the nausea.

What if instead of justification, women found support? I believe it would change the way we view pregnancy and childbirth.

Oh, I'm not upset about that. I'm upset about someone who knows nothing about me or my life calling me weak. It's completely unacceptable to me.

Erin, Where did Jill mention you by name and call you weak? Seems to me you personalized this and it became a subjective claim and not objective.

Perhaps your abortion had more of an impact on your psyche than you're willing to admit?

Remember we are made in God's image and hence we are imprinted with His moral map of always doing the right thing. When we sin, the map is short-circuited and we begin to die. No different than a virus in a computer. When we deny that we have done wrong, we call God a liar. The fact is He can't lie and we become victim to a moral Universe. Don't let satan win against you. This is not your destiny. God loves you and wants you to come to Him. He stands at the door of your heart and wants you to open it.

The only way out of your dilemma of guilt Erin is the love, mercy and forgiveness of Jesus Christ. The first step is to admit that you made a mistake and to ask for forgiveness. He cast no one out who approaches Him humbly and with a contrite attitude. Otherwise, you will forever be beating your head against the proverbial wall, not only here in this temporal life but in the eternal life that is to follow. Please do it while you can for you own sake.

Translating Jill: Buck-up whiners!

Holy lack of compassion Jill!

Pregnancy, while natural, is physiologically demanding, permanently changes your body, and let’s not even talk about raising the children once they’re born. No doubt every mother here has employed rhetorical exaggerations of these burdens for the purposes of guilt-tripping their immediate family.

Finally... it’s not about abortion being “better” than pregnancy silly moo.... that is a subjective thing which has no moral or legal bearing. Is this really how you want to argue against abortion? “I like being pregnant?”

By the way... look up “ironic” when you get a chance.

"He wouldn't want me to sacrifice my mental, emotional or physical well-being for a fetus."

so when they like being pregnant it's a baby, when they dislike it, it's a fetus.

"Pro-choice women are wimps"

"Modern-day feminists have degenerated into frail creatures, the very weaklings that sexists cariciature."

These are generalizations that directly involve me, and I take great offense to it. This has nothing to do with my abortion- it has to do with the fact that I take great pride in my strength, which my own experiences have imparted on me. Jill generalized that all pro-choicers are weak and frail- as someone who falls under the generalization, I am bound to take it personally. I'm a very strong person and I know that- it's almost the only aspect of myself that I have absolute certainity in.

Yes... I think I saw that in a medical dictionary... Like = baby, dislike = fetus. It also said religion = psychosis.

Cameron,

Your nacissistic shrill and banter is truly beyond comprehension.

By your definition of compassion, let's just kill everyone who presents a challenge or hardship to society. You must be a real a--hole.

My God, let's kill that thing because....[insert lame justification here].

You're a f--king Nazi. You make me puke.

Why is it that we have to be just like men in order to be equal? I've never understood this. The very definition of female: "of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs "

We are denying our fundamental right to be women when we deminish who we naturally are.

Equal 'rights' is one thing. That is something that should be demanded. But I am a woman, which means I bear young. No amount of spin is going to change that scientific fact. But for some reason we are seen as weak if we have to take maternity leave in order to have our kid.

Men absolutely love the feminist movement. That is why there are so many men involved. We say we have a brain and you need to respect us for it, and then we pose for playboy so all can oogle over us. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267873,00.html

Has anyone here actually payed attention to the latest feminine comercials. "every 4 weeks we go through the bloating (girl sitting at desk not able to work) the cramping (girl sitting in bathroom not able to get up) and the mood swings (girl in bedroom not able to get dressed)". oh yea, that shows we are equal and strong doesn't it? Or how about Sally Field's latest commercial on osteoporosis. "My girlfriend has to set aside time everyweek in order to take her medication". What? are we too dimwitted to take a pill everyweek? What is that about?

Do you really think that they would advertise men not being able to work, get up, get dressed when they are feeling less that fresh? (I couldn't resist that one, sorry) or have jock itch?

This is what the feminist movement has done. We are seen as weak, feableminded, ditzes who can't even handle what normal life hands us.

"Yes... I think I saw that in a medical dictionary... Like = baby, dislike = fetus"

Cam, what they do is lie to themselves (using the word fetus) so they'll feel better and not responsible for the abortion.

Gosh hisman... is that what Jesus would say to me?

"But I am a woman, which means I bear young"

Apperently suggesting women can do anything other than bear young is "spin."

Yes, Valerie, because we are still seen as property, still don't have voting rights, and still don't get paid half of what men do for the same jobs.

Feminism is about equality that acknowledges our differences and respective weaknesses, and one of the important aspects of that is both women and men coming to terms with each other's sexuality and biology. We are a hundred times more equal to men than we used to be- and feminism IS to thank for that.

Cameron -

Go ahead and read the rest of the post. go on, you can do it. Don't be scared.

The spin you like to do is reading only one sentence and then making a judgment based on that.

So, take your time. Read the whole post. It won't hurt you any. I promise.

"Yes, Valerie, because we are still seen as property, still don't have voting rights, and still don't get paid half of what men do for the same jobs."

what??????

"Men absolutely love the feminist movement."

LMAO...

Wake up and listen to your morning radio talk shows when you're on your way to work. Let me know if you here anything regarding feminism, other than disparaging remarks.

Feminism, like ACLU, affirmative action, and any other number of things which have challenged the WASP male status quo, are popularly the subject of ridicule.

Alas, I wasn’t surprised to note you’re not exactly in touch with reality.

Hisman "Your nacissistic shrill and banter is truly beyond comprehension.
* * *
You must be a real a--hole.
* * *
You're a f--king Nazi. You make me puke."

Now, who asked the question about why everyone was so angered about Hisman's posts?

Erin, I believe that the pro-choice movement has given a false definition of what strength is when it comees to pregnancy.

I don't doubt that you are a strong person, but I don't think that abortion enhances strength.

I think that abortion masquerades as strength in overcoming pregnancy, when the reality is that it weakens us.

The entire pro-choice ideology has put forth the idea that we must not let a "fetus defeat us" and imposes that ideology on the very nature of pregnancy. Naturally, should abortion not be an option for whatever reason, the woman still holds the opinion of "fetus as bad".

The pro-choice movement is demeaning to women because it tells us that we can only be "strong" if we forsake what makes us women. How is this power?

Pregnancy is hard, but the reward is beautiful. Abortion takes away the beauty and leaves only the pain.

I was being sarcastic.

The reason none of those statements are true anymore is because of feminism. Feminists were the ones who got us suffrage, the ones who lobbied for labor equality, and the ones who showed that a woman did not have to be a mother to be a good woman.

Erin, I agree with much of what feminism fights for. I simply do not believe that "pro-choice" is a feminist ideology.

"We say we have a brain and you need to respect us for it, and then we pose for playboy so all can oogle over us."

You all need to get your story straight... first the feminists are lesbian, Birkenstock-wearing, man-hating, hairy-legged monsters, now they're posing in Playboy?

Erin, those early feminists, the ones who worked for sufferage were all pro-life!

Cameron, come on. You know that there is a *huge* issue within feminism about pornogrpahy being either empowering or belittling. Just look at the fall out of the new book "Full Frontal Feminism". There are definitely at least two schools of feminism, and one of them is pretty attractive to men.

The Pro-Choice movement empowers women because it gives them the CHOICE to have a child. If they want to have a child, wonderful! I hope that it goes wonderfully and they have a fantastic life with their child! But if I am a woman with a career taking every precaution against pregnancy, and do not want children, but concieve anyway, then that pregnancy will jepordize my career. This country needs drastically improved labor laws about maternity leave. Women who go on maternity leave who are extrordinarily promising are fired on a regular basis for that 3 months- sometimes more- of time where they can't work.

ERIN! Feminists For Life is working for drastically improved labour laws for maternity leave.

Do you realize that when to MEN went to NOW to petetion them to become pro-abortion (this was before the "choice" rhetoric came into play) their number one argument was that "Men will not accept women as they are. They will not accept women having children. If women wish to enter the workforce, they must do something about bearing children" (rough quote)

Does this seem pro-women? NO!

Women should not have to choose between carrer and children. This is the number one premise of FFL. Abortion has served only to keep women in a place of lower class. We are not accepted "as we are" but only if we kill our children and deny our womanhood.

"I think that abortion masquerades as strength in overcoming pregnancy, when the reality is that it weakens us."

Um... speaking of spin. You wouldn’t so happen to have an example in which there is a stronger-than-mother-for-having-overcome-pregancy invoked?

"The entire pro-choice ideology has put forth the idea that we must not let a "fetus defeat us" and imposes that ideology on the very nature of pregnancy."

Not letting the "fetus defeat us" does not appear at any of the pro-choice web sites. Again, you appear to be talking out of your @ss.

"Naturally, should abortion not be an option for whatever reason, the woman still holds the opinion of "fetus as bad"."

Wow... I didn’t know you could get in the head of everyone seeking an abortion.

"The pro-choice movement is demeaning to women because it tells us that we can only be "strong" if we forsake what makes us women. How is this power?"

Again... example? Good luck with that one.

"I think that abortion masquerades as strength in overcoming pregnancy, when the reality is that it weakens us."

Um... speaking of spin. You wouldn’t so happen to have an example in which there is a stronger-than-mother-for-having-overcome-pregancy invoked?

"The entire pro-choice ideology has put forth the idea that we must not let a "fetus defeat us" and imposes that ideology on the very nature of pregnancy."

Not letting the "fetus defeat us" does not appear at any of the pro-choice web sites. Again, you appear to be talking out of your @ss.

"Naturally, should abortion not be an option for whatever reason, the woman still holds the opinion of "fetus as bad"."

Wow... I didn’t know you could get in the head of everyone seeking an abortion.

"The pro-choice movement is demeaning to women because it tells us that we can only be "strong" if we forsake what makes us women. How is this power?"

Again... example? Good luck with that one.

Cameron,

You can't imagine what Jesus will say to you.

You really think I'm a wimp don't you Cameron? I'd be happy to meet you anywhere, anytime, for a personal one on one.

My problem is that the Pro-Life side doesn't seem to accept women that DON'T WANT CHILDREN. I'm constantly hearing that 'children are a blessing'- I realize, children can be wonderful if you want to parent. I have a just as much a problem with saying women need to have babies to be women as I do with saying they need to not have babies to be a strong woman. This is why extremes frustrate me.

Cameron, YOU linked to "Mrs. No Fetus Defeat Us"

http://choice-joyce.blogspot.com/2006/04/let-no-fetus-defeat-us.html

She just so happens to and publish Pro-Choice Press, Canada's only national pro-choice publication.

It seems to me that the editer/publisher of the only national pro-choice publication is probably a pretty good spokesperson for the pro-choice view.

It appears that speaking out my "@ss" is looking t your sources. Interesting.

"You really think I'm a wimp don't you Cameron?"

I'm flattered that you care what I think.

"I'd be happy to meet you anywhere, anytime, for a personal one on one."

Will you be bringing your daughter? ;-D

Cameron -

YOU are the one that posted the pro-choice website that had "let no fetus defeat us".

Please stop your ignorance!

Oh, for the love of...Cameron and HisMan are taking me back to my high school days. Testosterone really isn't necessary here. Stop it.

Erin, there are many pro-life individuals who believe in voluntary sterilization if a woman DOES NOT want children. While we do consider every child a blessing, many pro-lifers do not think it morally wrong to reject a blessing. They see a difference between keeping a child from coming into existance and killing one that already exists.

If this is the only thing keeping you from embracing the pro-life stance I encourage you to look into organizations such as Democrats for life which are supportive of contraception.

Even at the web site Lauren, there is nothing negative about the fetus e.g. "fetus is bad... fetus underminds us...etc..." per your talking out of @ss.

in fact, she clearly states her stand regarding the fetus:

A. Fetuses are not that important.
B. Fetuses are none of our business.

My problem with the pro-life stance is that I simply cannot say that I think abortion should be illegal. There are far too many shades of gray. I'm very, very strongly for better education and distribution of birth control and very strongly for reducing the number of abortions. To contradict a common statement Jill makes, I am not pro-abortion- I would be thrilled if it were no longer ever needed. But there is subjectivity in every individual case, and I can't justify making it illegal.

"If this is the only thing keeping you from embracing the pro-life stance . . . "

Don't forget Hisman as a reason keeping so many from the pro-life stance.

You can point out saner alteratives such as Democrats for Life and FFL. Still most pro-lifers here "love his posts" and don't understand why he makes people angry. Right Bethany?

Here's a classic:

"Your nacissistic shrill and banter is truly beyond comprehension.
* * *
You must be a real a--hole.
* * *
You're a f--king Nazi. You make me puke."

Hal,

You just can't understand the anger I feel when some one like yourself can be so glib about killing your own children.

Who defended them? Who spoke up for them? It infuriates me and I can imagine what a Holy God feels.

You think because I am a Christian I feel no anger. No I feel a lot of anger buddy at such gross injustice. And it's directed at wimps like you and Cameron who have no right to call themselves men.

You are abominations to your Creator when you support the murder of innocent babies in the most sacred place next to heaven itself, the womb of the mother. To think that you did not even protect your own offspring. It's beastly and animal in nature. That's the truth of what you did Hal. It's cowardly. Face it, own up to it.

Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.

Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.

Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.

Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it's earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it's earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive, abortion's desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.

Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it's solution; annihilation, it's goal; death, it's dream; breaking God's heart, it's vision, satan's ultimate power.

Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance; abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God.

Yes, abortion is satan's feeble attempt at killing God himself, for abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him......for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.

Oh that's just your opinion HisMan!

Hmm. To degrade a human being as "not that important" speaks pretty clearly as a negative attitude.

If I said I do not believe you life to be of much import, would you consider me to view you in positive terms?

Her next statement proves my point. She concludes that fetuses have whatever value the mother decides. She has already said that this is "not much". Her views on fetuses are pretty low, which I'm sure carries into her personal life.

Because I am talking of those in leadership and how their views influence others, Joyce is a clear example.

Erin -

yes, old fashion femininism. Not what we have today.

Let's see...

Susan B. Anthony went to jail because she tried to vote in an election. Her involvment in the women's movement at that time allowed for all women to vote. She was pro-life.

Elizabeth Blackwell - 1st woman to receive a medical degree. She was pro-life.

Frances Willard - 1st woman to become a college president. She was pro-life.

Victoria Woodhull - 1st woman to be a presidential candidate. She was pro-life.

Eleanor Kirk - novelist, she endured 10 years of an abusive marriage before her husband deserted her. She was one of the strongest suffragist voices for the unborn.

Dr. Charlotte Lozier - Her arguments and persistance is what led to women being allowed Bellvue hospital to be open to female medical student. She was pro-life.

These are the founders of feminism. If it weren't for them we wouldn't be voting. We wouldn't have fair wages. We wouldn't be getting an education. They were all pro-life.

Erin, I used to agree with you about illegality not being the best solution to abortion. Can I ask you why you believe this is not the best course of action?

HisMan-

It's God. If I actually understand the concept of God, if he's really that mad at us, he could do some wicked-smiting. And about us 'going against God's plan'- that's also apparently impossible. If we are offending God, he can send us to hell, or kill our pets, or something. God isn't helpless, from what I understand.

Erin,

Testosterone no. Righteous indignation, absolutely, against these creeps who hate women.

Imposters who pretend to be knights in shining armor but in their free time joyfully play with themselves.

Hisman, if Holy God doesn't like what I did, he can deal with me. Anywhere, anytime, for a personal one on one.

My "glibness" is part to provoke you (for fun) and part because I am at peace with my/our decision. I have no guilt about it, thousands of people do it every day, and it was the best decision for us at the time. I have two wonderful children that I am an exceptional father to. You can call me a wimp all you want, but I'm happy and well adjusted.

Lauren- I believe that illegality would prove dangerous(oh, man, I'm going to get reamed for this one, lifers hate that) to women who try to get illegal abortions, and because I honestly do not think that it is criminal. I really don't believe that it is the killing of a baby- I believe that it is the termination of a pregnancy. This is where I split so heavily from lifers. I believe that every individual's case is their individual case, and if they don't want to carry a fetus to term, I have no right to say that they have to.

Hal,

Should aborting a 39 week old fetus be illegal?

OMG, Hisman, now you have a problem wtih people joyfully playing with themselves?

Were you really born in 1300?

Lauren...
Choice Joyce's stance reflects humanity's throughout the ages...and it is direct oposition to the novel and recent manifestation of this fetus-centrism typified by the prolife camp.

Society's view of the fetus is, has been, and will be, in no uncertain terms and ostensibly so, "not that important." Nobody calls CSI when there is a misscarriage... nobody has funerals for the misscarried... nobody registers the fetus as a citizen upon conception... etc....

Choice Joyce does not making destruction of fetus a necesity for the purposes of keeping women strong... per your talking out of @ss.

You need a different example to support your tenuous spin.

Lauren...
Choice Joyce's stance reflects humanity's throughout the ages...and it is direct oposition to the novel and recent manifestation of this fetus-centrism typified by the prolife camp.

Society's view of the fetus is, has been, and will be, in no uncertain terms and ostensibly so, "not that important." Nobody calls CSI when there is a misscarriage... nobody has funerals for the misscarried... nobody registers the fetus as a citizen upon conception... etc....

Choice Joyce does not making destruction of fetus a necesity for the purposes of keeping women strong... per your talking out of @ss.

You need a different example to support your tenuous spin.

HisMan! You challenged Cameron to a fight! If that isn't testosterone-ridden show-offy boy behavior, I don't know what it.

Erin,

are coming over to the pro-life side now?

"Imposters who ... in their free time joyfully play with themselves. "

*gulp

Guilty as charged!

;-D

But if you'd just hook me up with your daughter HisMan....

jasper-

why always with that same exact question?

Jasper,

so, if I say yes, you'll say, "how about 38 weeks?" then we'll go on and on until your clever arguments make me see that there is no principled way to draw a line after conception. Or, I'll say no, and you'll ask, then why not five minutes after birth? And I'll see the light and repent my evil ways.

No thanks.

I think the best practice is to leave the decision to a woman (who I credit with being a moral and intellegent being) and her doctor (same).

because if a 39 week old "fetus" (baby) can't be aborted, why should a 1 week old.

Erin, I believe that better support for pregnant and parenting women must coincide with a ban on abortion. As a country we have become reliant on abortion, and we must do everything possible to help ease the backlash from illegalization.

I believe that this will greatly help women in our country because it will force employeers to accept women "as is" without the added "benefit" of abortion.

May I ask you what exactly you believe is removed during an abortion. It's not a tric question, I just would like to see how you feel about what a fetus actually "is".

Hal:

I'm trying to save lives and you're pushing buttons.

That's sick not well adjusted.

Yes... if an 16 year old can drive... why not a 3 year old?

Sorry jasper- my convictions will take a long time and a lot of empirical proof to overturn. I really do enjoy exchanging ideas with you guys...well, everyone except HisMan...and who knows what will happen in time? I may convert- as may you. I don't think anything is carved in stone.

A 3 year old can't see out the windshield. Next ingnorant question...

"I'm trying to save lives and you're pushing buttons."

LMAO. How many lives have you saved today threatening battery online?

I'm trying to save lives too. quality and quantity.

Many many women believe the quality of their lives, or their life itself, was saved by safe and legal access to abortion.

Cameron,

If you were half a man, you'd be willing to say that to my face.

Whadya say boy?

and a one week old can't breath.

Next oblivious comment!

A one week old can breath. I saw my daughter breathing when she was one week old. Don't need any proof for that...

Lauren- I believe it's a potential life. A fetus. I don't deny that fetii have the potential to become a child- but until they reach viability, they aren't really a valid individual life in my opinion.

"and a one week old can't breath."

the mother is breathing for him at this point.

Cameron, I mentioned NARAL's conversion of NOW, but you seem to have missed that part.

As for "no one cares about fetuses", YOU don't care and you are projecting that onto everyone else. I know one person who was unaffected by a miscarriage. Every other woman I know who has had one has suffered greatly. Women want closure when their children die, and are often heartbroken when they miscarry and are not able to identify the remains.

Indeed, there are many message boards devoted entirely to women grieving pregnancy loss. Doctors tell women to expect to grieve the loss of a child to miscarriage like they would any other loss.

It appears that there are quite a few people in the world who view a fetus as a pretty big deal.

What does viability change? Why does the ability to live connected to tubes change who were essentially "are"?

In essance what makes us human? It can not simply be our ability to survive. So what then makes us human?

"Sorry jasper- my convictions will take a long time and a lot of empirical proof to overturn."

what more proof do you need Erin?

what exactly are you looking for, what kind of proof?

I think the best way to demonstrate my "maturity," as opposed to antiquated ideals about male gender role, would be to just ignore you.

Doublespeak Hal:

What kind of quality of life do your two murdered children have?

Cameron:

Is that what you call a good ass whippin', battery? You are a solid wimp.

"A one week old can breath. I saw my daughter breathing when she was one week old. Don't need any proof for that..."

My Bad... I can never tell what you fetus-centric people mean when it comes to age... after all it's a baby when it's in the womb.

Anyhow.. the point is that "viability" is the key word here regarding abortion.

Cameron, I toy with that idea from time to time. Then I can't resist jumping back in.

Of course, he hasn't called me out for a fight yet. Maybe he's afraid of me.

Lauren -

According to Erin the life has to be "valid".

of course, I have no idea who decides validity.

Before I get accused of taking words out of text.

Erin's statment:

"but until they reach viability, they aren't really a valid individual life in my opinion."

Lauren- actually, our ability to survive is largely what I base life on. jasper- I do not have proof that you are right. I don't have proof that I am right either, for that matter, but my personal life experiences have shaped my beliefs to what they are, just as yours have. Neither of us can really prove that abortion is good or bad- we can simply believe what we so chose because that is where our moral compass guides us. The best thing that anyone can do is respect opposing viewpoints- and sometimes friendly debating does change minds. Sometimes it doesn't. Either way, I always enjoy debating here, because I feel that we both gain something from it.

@HisMan: Actually if Cameron were under 18, a good "ass whippin' " would be considered "abuse". Violence solves nothing dude, it just pisses people off more.

@Valerie: How are you today?

"Then I can't resist jumping back in."

I feel your pain also. Most of the time I just ignore him, and Polly the Parrot (Heather4Life). However, sometimes I can't resist responding just to see what will happen next.

Rae:

No, a good ass whippin' is what Cameron needs. I'd be happy to oblige.

How many more unborn children will die because of people like Cameron? Abortion is the ultimate abuse.

Hal,

Should I be afraid of you? Why, you gonna abort me too? Sorry, no chance, I can defend myself very adequately thank you. Grew up on the streets of NY my friend and have survived more than you could ever imagine. And if I couldn't defend myself my four sons would be more than happy to protect their father. Of course, that's why I didn't abort them because I was only concerned about MYself and MY quality of life.

Yes, HisMan, you are very selfless. Good for you. We're all very scared of you being a big scary dude from New York who has 'been through more than we could ever imagine'.

Get off the pedestal. Honestly.

Hal,

Cameron and you appear to be forming a band of brothers or should I say, stooges?

That's good. Wimps need each other too. Maybe when your wife leaves you Hal after she realizes what a wimp you were to abort your two children in the womb, you can go cry on Cameron's shoulder.

I think doctors generally make the call when the fetus is viable.

"Lauren- actually, our ability to survive is largely what I base life on"

how about if one's heart is beating? Is he alive or dead?

"Cameron and you appear to be forming a band of brothers or should I say, stooges?"

Dang... I miss the paranoid delusional stuff about us actually being the same person.

jasper- this kinda goes with my stance on quality of life too, euthanasia and such. If a child can't survive outside the womb, it is not an independant life form. Brain-dead people have a pulse, and I don't really consider them alive.

Paranoid-delusional implies some fear of you Cameron. And if you look at the posts where I said that, you responded as if you were Hal.

As I said before and I will say again, I will be glad to meet you anytime, anywhere.

I warn you NOT to mention my daughter again as I will take that as a personal threat on her safety and will have to deal with you appropriately you wacko.

Erin, We are all only able to survive in our environments. Why is a fetus' ability to survive within the womb valued less than my ability to survive in Texas? Should someone who has adapted to life in Alaska be more highly valued than me?

"If a child can't survive outside the womb, it is not an independant life form"

therefore because it can't surivive outside of the womb, the child can be murdered? you said it was a child

I second Erin's plea to stop with the whole "meet me by the flagpole at 3:00 attitude."

Let's have a bit of maturity, please. This is something of a serious topic, wouldn't you agree?

Erin, premature children require all the life sustaining interventions required of brain dead individuals.

Viability does not mean ability to survive without intense medical treatment, only the ability to survive outside the womb.

We're making progress, I think Erin is on the verge of turning pro-life.

Jasper, you once again think that your word games are going to "convert" someone to the pro-life side, but you are just being ignorant. It going to take a lot more than trying to trick someone as passionate about their beliefs as Erin. I've read posts from her in other forums (or, at least, I think it's her), and she is nowhere near changing sides.

"I warn you NOT to mention my daughter again as I will take that as a personal threat on her safety and will have to deal with you appropriately you wacko."

Oooooh.. cyber line in the sand.

What's your daughter's name anyhow? I think it belittle's her to just talk about her as your daughter.

"I've read posts from her in other forums (or, at least, I think it's her), and she is nowhere near changing sides."

I disagree with you. why? I could be wrong, but Erin felt an emotional connection to her baby. She instintively knew it was the wrong thing to do after it happened.

Cameron, stop antagonizing HisMan.

I WILL turn this car around, children!

leah, I can't speak for Jasper, but I am not playing word games.

I am trying to get Erin (and everyone pro-choice) to look into exactly what makes humans "persons" and explain their views to me.

The "pro-choice" elites have done a very good job blurring what is actually done in abortion and to whom it is done. While I don't doubt that Erin has thought out her views, I do question what the deeper meaning behind them might be.

In a world where informed consent talks about removing a "pregnancy", I think we have a lot of room to explore just what exactly *is* removed.

oh Leah, where did I leave off with you?.... Do you believe it is a life but OK to abort anyway?

"Erin felt an emotional connection to her baby"

... that's normal. You don't have to be pro-life to feel an emotional connection to your baby.

"This is something of a serious topic, wouldn't you agree?"

I think HisMan is actually being serious when he sez he want's to meet by the flag pole, however immature that might seem. As for myself goading him along.... I kind of feel like it shows/exemplifies they're true colors for all to see.

C'mon Cameron.

Give me some more fuel.

You have no idea what I know about you.

"that's normal. You don't have to be pro-life to feel an emotional connection to your baby."

why would you feel an emotional connection Leah?

Ohh, Jasper. That made me smile. I like you.

Yes. I believe it is okay to abort anyway.

Let the games begin ...

Competition is in the Darland genes, my friend--you are not going to win this! Competition and stubborness.

I don't know, Jasper. I've never been pregnant. When I am, I'll get back to you, kay?

Cameron,

Right on the money you wimp. I have had it with you and am prepared to deal with you.

Say one more thing about my daughter and you'll find out just what I mean.

I don't feel like classifying feminists movement so generally is a good thing.

As I've said before, along with many people in this post, FFL is a great organization and defies the stereotype that pro-choice=feminism.

Many times, it seems pro-abortion stances exploit any feeling of weakness or overwhelmingness to promote the view that killing life is the answer.

Instead, we should expand the resources and solutions for these feelings so that overcoming the feeling of being overwhelmed for these women is more accessable, available, and viable.

"Competition is in the Darland genes, my friend--you are not going to win this! Competition and stubborness."

this is not about wining or losing, it's about life or death. Death for the most innocent and helpless among us. I would never compare this to any game.

Cameron, Hisman

I think it would be better for you both if you guys took a break and went outside for a bit. I understand that this can become infuriating, but this is not helping.

I love you both, and do not like what I am seeing.

Cameron:
"By the way... look up 'ironic' when you get a chance."

Jill, don't bother until Cameron I looks up one of Cameron II's big words, "synecdoche" -- and learns that having Cameron II try to get Cameron I off the hook for being stupid is bad form.

Oh, but I would, because that's what you've been doing--you've been playing mind games with me, trying to trick me. Not going to work.

And I'm in too good of a mood to let you get to me!

Leah, I really don't think Jasper is trying to trick you. Do your initial answers to his question make you feel like you're being tricked?

I believe he's trying to get you to evaluate your beliefs. If they're solid this should reinforce them. Go past the initial "trick instinct" and look into what he's saying.

For Chrissake, I go to take a shower and all blazes breaks loose. Knock it OFF you two. And Leah is right, I'm not remotely near changing sides- but just because I don't intend to change sides doesn't mean I don't honestly appreciate and listen to what you have to say.

You are correct- I felt an emotional connection to the fetus inside me while I was pregnant. Actually, I even named it before I hit myself with a metaphoric 2x4 and woke myself up. Like all emotions, it was hormone based- and I really honestly don't feel any regret about terminating it. I knew that it was right for me. The ONLY thing that being pregnant changed about me was the fact that I now think that sometime in the future I may want children. I never did before. It jumpstarted my biological clock, heh!

Oh, for heaven's sakes.

Cameron, please stop cyber-ogling HisMan's daugher.

HisMan, please stop threatening Cameron.

Better yet, look to what your heart tells you when you are asked the question and then ask "why?". Don't settle for "It's a trick!"

Lauren,

I will deal with this coward in my own way. He thinks he's anonymous on this website. He should think again.

I have done a lot of searching on my own and I know who he is, by trial and error. His sick comments can be found on other websites. They are mirror images of each other. He's not too smart.

I can shut him down in a heartbeat so he'd better take my words seriously.

You see, this is the only things these wimps understand.

He thinks he can bully Heatehr4Life and who he calls Gestatorof3 and Jill and constantly get away with it.

If he says one more thing about my daughter, that will be it. It's the line that he crosses and he'll go sreaming home to his mommy, I guarantee it.

His superiors will end up dealing with him

Oh, I certainly don't feel like I'm being tricked. I just recognize an attempt.

I've evaluated and reevaluated my beliefs many times--which is why I am pro-choice now. I used to be pro-life, you see. So I know all the pro-life arguments and I understand them. I don't need them pointed out to me--I get it.

All I see in Jasper's questions are the questions themselves. I see no deep meaning. Yes. I have looked.

You guys do realize this is the internet, right? Threatening people over the internet... that's rather ridiculous.

Frankly, HisMan, I’d date Cameron or Hal before you. I like being treated as an equal, with enough brain mass to decide what I do with my own body, thanks. And frankly, your testosterone-ridden calls to one on one combat are laughable. When one resorts to violence, one has failed in all other aspects of debate. Who was it, again, who said to turn the other cheek?

I would also like to point out that, as a black belt in martial arts, willingness, even enthusiasm to resort to violence is as sure a sign of weakness as there ever was.

As someone who was quoted in this post (my words were twisted, as I shall explain) I feel the urge to at the very least, clarify the statements.

If I became pregnant while abortion was outlawed, I would find every possible way to end the condition. I dislike being pregnant, and dislike the weakened state it puts me in. My career and life are quite fast paced, and as I have the (enjoyable) tendency to put myself in dangerous situations to get a story, pregnancy would have an incredible impact upon my life. As journalism, particularly print journalism, is still predominantly male, becoming pregnant could impact my career in other ways.

Between the fact that pregnancy would leave me unable to cover the stories I choose and could impact how I am seen within my job, I have no desire to become pregnant. As I am using two forms of contraception, know how to use both expertly, and am in a long-term relationship, I see no reason to abstain. If, however, I am one of the unlucky few who has contraception fail them, I will seek an abortion for the reasons mentioned above.

If circumstances were different, I could carry a pregnancy to term, assuming I haven’t inherited any of the persistent family problems doing so. But as of now, I have no desire to. It isn’t a flaw in my personality, or some imaginary “weakness.” I just don’t want kids. I don’t see anything wrong with that, and I’m sorry you do.

HisMan, that is seriously frightening. It's the internet. Calm down. I know who Cameron is too, by chance, and at this point I'm seriously considering warning the local authorities. Stop.

Erin,

He has made threats against my daughter. If you think I take those lightly forget it.

If he can abort a human being in the womb, why do you thnk he would stop at hurting my daughter or anybody's daughter?

Erin, I know that coming to see the child you aborted as a person would cause you pain. Because of that I want you to know that you have my support should your begin to see your child as more than a potential person.

I know that you don't see that happening, but I with an open mind anything is possible. I do believe that you have an open mind.

Like Leah, I beg you not to think I'm trying to "trick" you. I'm not at all. I just want to talk with you about your views and see perhaps if we can get past some of the walls that seem to have been put up.

It seems like you talk about your pregnancy and abortion in very removed terms. I can understand why you would. If you're not ready to go past those walls, I don't want to force you to do so.

On the other side of the wall is pain, but also truth. More than anything there is hope.

He hasn't made any threats against your daughter. He has actually only shown a typical male interest of the opposite sex. You realize that someday your daughter will date, she will eventually get married, and will not die a virgin?

Leah, what were your beliefs when you were pro-life?

Lauren--

I am open to anything you want to throw my way. You won't change my mind, but I am interested in discussion.

What I am not interested in is what was happening yesterday with the word games of unborn child vs. fetus discussion with the same questions being asked over and over again. That was ridiculous, and now that I look back on it--rather laughable!

I am in much too good of a mood.

What's got you in such a prancing-through-a-meadow-with-puppies-and-bunnies mood, Leah?

Erin, 12:36p, said: "But Jill, you have no right to judge me on how incredibly sick I was while I was pregnant. And NO RIGHT to call me a weak, frail feminist. NO ONE has the right to call me weak. I don't tolerate that, EVER."

Sorry, Erin, You were weak. You were a wimp. You were utterly selfish. So what if you were nauseous? Honestly. You aborted your baby because you didn't like throwing up? That's not wimpy?

Erin, 1:48p, said: "These are generalizations that directly involve me, and I take great offense to it. This has nothing to do with my abortion- it has to do with the fact that I take great pride in my strength, which my own experiences have imparted on me. Jill generalized that all pro-choicers are weak and frail- as someone who falls under the generalization, I am bound to take it personally. I'm a very strong person and I know that- it's almost the only aspect of myself that I have absolute certainity in."

And you show your strength how? By aborting? That's demonstrating strength all right, brute strength against your own helpless child.

Erin, 2:08p, said: "But if I am a woman with a career taking every precaution against pregnancy, and do not want children, but concieve anyway, then that pregnancy will jepordize my career."

No, you did not take every precaution. You got horny and had sex and then you didn't like the consequence and aborted your baby. Was it worth it?

Erin, 2:28p, said: "To contradict a common statement Jill makes, I am not pro-abortion- I would be thrilled if it were no longer ever needed. But there is subjectivity in every individual case, and I can't justify making it illegal."

Erin, you're pro-abortion. Thrilled if it were no longer needed? Give me a break. You can't justify making it illegal because you need a fall-back plan. You also need to internally defend what you did. And why should it be illegal anyway? What's wrong with it?

Erin, 2:39p, said: "I honestly do not think that it is criminal. I really don't believe that it is the killing of a baby- I believe that it is the termination of a pregnancy."

You just said you wished it were illegal. Make up your mind.

You are so lying to yourself, Erin. Not so much later you posted, "I felt an emotional connection to the fetus inside me while I was pregnant." What was there to emotionally attach to if it was just a pregnancy, whatever that means, and not your baby?

My beliefs when I was pro-life are rather vague to me now. I'm not saying this to avoid your question--believe me. It was a while ago, and I am now so deeply pro-choice, that I do not completely know what my beliefs were.

I do know, however, that I believed--as most pro-lifers do, I imagine--that abortion was murder. I believed that abortion should be allowed only in the most extreme of situations--that a woman should have to go before a judge who would decide whether or not she should be allowed an abortion.

In short, I believed abortion to be acceptable only in the case of immediate danger to the woman's life, and perhaps other extreme, rare cases--at a judge's discretion.

I firmly believed in the alternative of adoption and I didn't understand the flaws of such a belief.

I hope that is sufficient. I could try to go deeper, if you wish, but this is the basis of my thoughts at the time.

I dislike being pregnant, and dislike the weakened state it puts me in.

Less, have you been pregnant before?

You pro-aborts may think you are allowed to kill your own babies that live inside you and encourage others to do the same and that without consequence. You fail to realize that this is not a game. Life and death issues are not a game. There are monumental physical and spiritual issues at stake. Posting on this website with the grossly inhumane, profane and sadistic comments against motherhood and unborn babies is intolerable. You all need spankings as you act like spoiled brats, allowed to say anything you want against a Holy God.

Cameron trivializes life and death. If he thinks he can get away with this by taunting me with threats and insults against my daughter, he's wrong.

Mention my kids and all the restraints come off. I will die to protect my children, especially my daughter.

I warn him again not to mention my daughter ever, ever again.

Leah, Thank you for responding.

It seems to me what has changed is that you now believe that the murder is justified.

You believe that the fetus is a life, but that the motehr has the right to end that life.

What do you believe gives the mother that power?

Erin--

First of all, I don't think you're weak or a wimp, and I think it's disrespectful for anyone who doesn't know you to make that judgement and I'm shocked that the proprieter of this site would do such a thing. Namecalling. Honestly. If I have ever done so to anyone on this site, please accept my apologies.

Second of all, I'm not sure why I'm in such a good mood. But no puppies, please. I don't like dogs. :)

Wow, I missed a fun one today! Darn work!!

Jill, I say again, you do not know me personally. You do not know several situations that I have been in in my life. You cannot judge me as a weak person. Especially considering that I know it to be untrue. I had an abortion because it was what was best for me. Was that selfish? Yes. If no one was ever selfish humanity would be a huge mess. I have a right to protect my own self-interest.

Kittens, maybe, then, Leah? I'm more of a cat person myself!

Not at all, Lauren. I do not believe it to be murder, simply.

Now, I hesitate to use this wording, for it has been openly mocked by Jill and other pro-lifers as pro-choice jargon, but I shall anyway because I find such mocking a rather childish approach to debate (much like name-calling).

This "fetus" or "unborn child" has life, yes--as all the cells in our body do: skin, blood, etc. But, we do not mourn every time we wipe our hands on a towel and dead skin cells come off.

I am not trying to dehumanize this potential life (that being the "jargon" I was hesitant to use). I am simply saying that while there is life, it is not life the way it is experienced outside of the womb. This is what is unprovable--when that sort of life begins. Obviously, as soon as there's a cell there's *something* ... but I do not believe that something to be conscious by any means.

I apologize if this seems disjointed. It's rather late where I am.

Thank you for the intelligent discussion! I appreciate it!

Erin--

Yes, please, on the kittens! I love cats.

HisMan:

Serisouly why are you so angry at Cam? He wasnt "threatening" your daughter...(*Cough*delusions*cough*). He just asked if he could meet her, gyah!....

Sadly, society is a huge mess.

Erin, you are right that we do not know the details of your abortion. You say that it was selfish, so it seems you believe that to be the case.

I don't think that you're a wimp. I do think that you have put shields up to protect yourself. We all do.

Abortion isn't the end of the story. There is so much that can be taken from such an act. i can understand not wanting to break the barriars down when it seems that you will only be met with anger and judgement.

You know, this is all slightly ridiculous. You all like to go on and on about how "immature" we are, and yet here's HisMan threatening people over the internet.

If that's a sign of strength and maturity, you all can keep it.

The entire time I've been reading, I couldn't do anything but shake my head at your reactions to everything. It's the internet for Pete's sake, people.

With that said, I bid you adieu. Maybe someday you all will do just what you've advised us "pro-aborts" of and grow up a little.

In all honesty midnite... I intended to get a rise out of him.

HisMan:

How old is your daughter anyway? I dont have my daddy fighting my battles for me anymore.

Lauren- to be honest, a lot of the reason that I am offended has nothing to do with the matters surrounding my abortion. It has to do with very powerful issues in my past that have made me a strong person. As for putting up walls, that's a way of life for me. PTSD is crazy like that. I have taken a very long time to rebuild myself after a few choice incidents in my past and seeing someone demean all of that the way that Jill has by one decision that she believes to be bad is very, very upsetting.

Wow, Cam! I think you succeeded!

For heaven's sake ...

Cam:

I figured you did honey!

*kiss*

I have just learned that my dear friend's son was killed in a helicopter crash.

He was protecting our nation from the onslaught of illegal aliens crossing our border.

This just goes to show you how fragile our lives are. We all need to be ready to meet our Maker.

It is a fool who lives his life as if he were going to live forever, without so much as a thought of what might be on the other side and what consequences their actions my bring.

Please pray for my friends family.

Cameron, if you make any derogatory comments about this, I'll consider it a personal threat. And I couldn't be more pissed off than right now.

"Wow, Cam! I think you succeeded!"

Understatement of the day!

I got a rise out him long before I asked about his daughter... simply by posting here. HisMan, absent any capacity for tolerance and thoughtful debate, follows-up with cyber-bullying... threatening to beat me... threatening to contact "superiors."

Jill seems to think this kosher though, as opposed to my points and arguments which efficiently destroy the prolife arguments... theses posts must be censored, while cyber-bullying is fine.

Grace:

"HisMan:

How old is your daughter anyway? I dont have my daddy fighting my battles for me anymore."

I'm 36 and if someone was sexually harrassing me, as Cameron likes to do to the pro-life women on this site, my father would defend me. It's what fathers do.

HisMan -
I am very sorry to hear of your friends son. He is in my prayers.

HisMan--

I am very sorry for your friend and his family. I cannot imagine the pain of such a loss.

I will pray for them.

That's a shame, HisMan, my sympathies to his family. They will be in my thoughts.

Leah, scientifically we define the begining of a unique human life as " amphimixis" which occurs with the fusion of the male and female pro-nucuei.

Amphimixis is literally defined as the "moment of conception"

Conception is of course defined as "beginning"

Science defines amphimixis as the beginning of a unique human being.

Amphimixis destinguishes the formation of the zygote from any other live cell.

There is no scientific disagreement on this fact.

"I really honestly don't feel any regret about terminating it"

Really Erin?

Really, jasper. If I had felt any doubt that it was the right decision for me, I would never have done it. I made very, very sure that it was the best option for me. I considered everything else thoroughly. It was what was right for me.

Erin, I understand about triggers. I did EMDR for PTSD, but I know there are certain things that can set me way back.

Let me know if I hit any triggers, I certainly don't want to.

Hisman, he is in my prayers.

I am in agreement with cameron here. I read through the post and he didnt "threaten" HisMan's daughter, he asked to meet her. I dont consider that sexual harassment, threats, etc. It's a simple question.

Okay, Lauren. I won't disagree.

That does not define, however, the beginning of consciousness--the sort of consciousness that makes human life so unique--the sort of consciousness that differentiates the life of a human being as a while from the life of the human's organs.

That sort of thing is not provable. It is one of God's mysteries, and will always rest that way.

That, in my opinion, is what makes human life so beautiful.

Erin, IF some definitive proof came into existance that showed humans from the earliest stages of development to be persons, would you feel the same about your abortion?

Lauren, I'm sure you'll be fine. Very specific stuff sets me off, and I doubt you're going to creep into my dorm and make gunshot noises :-) So no worries.

Leah, Do you believe that all born humans have this conciousness? Would an anacephalic child for instance have this innate human quality?

Probably not, Lauren. But then the definition of personhood comes into play and you've got a whole other mess on your hands. I also agree with Leah that personhood isn't really provable- or at least will not be for a very, very long time.

Gunshots! My goodness. No, no worries there. I just didn't want to set off any triggers that might be sexually oriented (as is very possible in a debate about abortion).
m
m ,k

sorry my son is in my lap and he likes punching keys!

I agree that personhood is not necessarally provable at this point, but I believe there are certain permeters that we can agree upon.

Lauren--

I could answer you technically, for a start.

Most anencephalic chilren are born unconscious and never regain consciousness ... so technically no.

But I know that that isn't what you mean, nor is it what I mean, so I'll give you a real answer.

I don't know, naturally. It is impossible to know--which is my point. My belief is that they probably do. An anencephalic baby is a human being, after all.

Being a spiritual person, I do not believe that this consciousness of which I speak rests in the brain, but the soul.

Sorry, Erin, You were weak. You were a wimp. You were utterly selfish. So what if you were nauseous? Honestly. You aborted your baby because you didn't like throwing up? That's not wimpy?

That’s her choice, not yours, and frankly Jill you’re being incredibly judgmental and cruel. Why in the seven hells would ANY post abortion woman want to talk to someone like you? You claim that the pro-choice side had no compassion for women: look what you just wrote. Hypocritical much.

Less, have you been pregnant before?

Nope, and goodness willing I never will be.

THank's Leah, you're right that I was talking about the concept of a soul.

Actually, you answered it best with "an anacephalic baby is a human being, after all".

These children do not meet our basic marks of functional personhood. They have no brain activity, no higher mental capacity, no ability to change their surroundings...not much of any "person like" quality.

Even so, we recognize them as members of our species and they are afforded the rights there of.

Why?

Because they've been born. They've been born a human being and once a human has been born they are afforded rights. There is nowhere in law that says "Laws and rights not applicable to those born without a functioning brain."

I think we agree over this point.

It's late, but I'm interested in where this is going. I'll stick around for a post or two more ...

HisMan:

You need to learn how to take a joke and act your age. And I am sorry about your friend's son. But you're not the only one who has loved ones in Irag defending our freedom (not just Cam's.). They're defending your right to judge him too.

So birth becomes the measure of who we are?

It doesn't matter if we have higher brain function, as some have argued, but simply because we are born?

It seems to me there must be something other than birth that gives us our humanity. To me it seems like saying that a joey in pouch is not a kangaroo, but out of pouch it becomes one.

Does something occur when we change physical locations that alters our core nature?

Nice one Less!!

Less, 5:16p, said: "Thats her choice, not yours, and frankly Jill youre being incredibly judgmental and cruel. Why in the seven hells would ANY post abortion woman want to talk to someone like you? You claim that the pro-choice side had no compassion for women: look what you just wrote. Hypocritical much."

Excuse me, who's the cruel here? Less, you have an incredibly misplaced sense of compassion, although that is no surprise. You've already said even with complete support, you'd still abort.

If Erin regretted her abortion, I'd be the first to offer her support. But she doesn't, even after admitting she had bonded with her baby before killing him/her.

I repeat, who's the cruel one here?

All right, Cam and HisMan. I'm deleting all your posts from 5p on that have anything to do with egging each other on. You've both had your say.

So, Jill, you only offer women any sort of kindness if they agree with your beliefs? What a conditional sort of kindness and caring! Aren't you supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin? Is calling her selfish hating the sin or condemning the sinner?

That is my belief, yes. Could I be wrong? Of course, it's very possible. Any one of us could be.

I do have more to say, but I have to call it a night. I have class early tomorrow morning.

I'd be glad to continue this discussion at a different time, however.

Bonne nuit à tous!

Cameron:
"my points and arguments which efficiently destroy the prolife arguments"

This would be Cameron I with his delusions of grandeur. Or taking the credit for the posts of Cameron II, whose proxy backup he seems to appreciate.

Less, you've said several times you post here for the thrill of arguing. That's not why I post. I don't enter into debates without the hope of swaying opinion. Pick another target.

I'll be here, Leah.

Ohhh love the dismiss-rather-than answer responses. very telling.

"All right, Cam and HisMan. I'm deleting all your posts from 5p on that have anything to do with egging each other on. You've both had your say."

No problem. Already saved it.

So, Jill, you only offer women any sort of kindness if they agree with your beliefs? What a conditional sort of kindness and caring! Aren't you supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin? Is calling her selfish hating the sin or condemning the sinner?

Less, do you understand the difference between compassion and kindness? We can be kind to someone while telling them the truth, without having compassion on them, when they claim they aren't suffering. Does it make sense to have compassion on someone who's not hurt? Look up the definition of Compassion and tell me how it fits.

HisMan,

my prayers are with your friends family

J

Actually, I may be wrong. Kindness actually doesn't fit either...unless you want us to be con