Purists, explain what's wrong with this law

From Reuters, May 24:

A bill prohibiting public funds from being used for most abortions has become law in Oklahoma after a deadline passed for the state's governor to veto the measure.

"If the governor doesn't act, it becomes law," said his spokesman, Phil Bacharach. Gov. Brad Henry had until midnight on Wednesday night to veto the bill.

Henry, a Democrat, vetoed a previous bill that contained no exceptions for publicly funded abortions even in cases of rape or incest. The new version allows such an exception if the victim reports the crime to the police.

Purists or hardliners, not sure what they prefer to be called, will say this law is pro-abortion because of its rape/incest exception. They will say pro-lifers supporting it tacitly support these abortions.

But here was a case where the first attempt was pure and failed. Now OK has a law in place outlawing public funding of most almost all abortions. This is bad?

dissension.gifI'm a little riled at purists right now, after receiving a copy of their press release last week entitled, "Rift opens in Christian Right unprecedented criticism of Dobson by major ministries."

This was to announce they were placing an ad in a CO newspaper taking on Dr. James Dobson for supporting the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. The title they gave their release showed their intent, to cause public dissension in the pro-life ranks. I admire many people in this group, but this was not good.

[Hat tip: #2 Son and reader jasper]


Comments:

It needs to be pointed out again: Funding abortions for indigent women SAVES money.

A woman who can't afford to pay for her abortion also cannot afford to pay for her labor and delivery, which costs a lot more (approximately ten times more). That means sooner or later the costs of her labor and delivery are paid by the government.

Right-to-lifers often talk as if cutting off government funds for abortion saves taxpayers money. It doesn't. The question is, how much MORE $ are you willing to pay the tax man to cover the labor and delivery costs incurred by not paying for indigent women's abortions?

Posted by: SoMG at May 25, 2007 10:55 AM


I am glad with ANY tax funding being taken away from abortion providers. One step at a time. This is awesome news. If you haven't already, sign this petition to stop all planned parenthood tax funding:
http://www.stopplannedparenthoodtaxfunding.com/


SOMG, however much it takes.


Posted by: Bethany at May 25, 2007 11:15 AM


Right-to-lifers often talk as if cutting off government funds for abortion saves taxpayers money.

It never has been about saving money. It's always been about saving lives. And life is priceless.

Posted by: Bethany at May 25, 2007 11:56 AM


Smoggy,

This is not about money, it's about stopping abortion.


Signed it Bethany -thanks

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 11:57 AM


Yes, it is particularly devastating when pro-lifers take after one another. Nothing good ever comes from it and the end result is a lot of ego and people who won't talk to each other anymore.

I have seen this first-hand many times and the destruction it brings and we work like crazy here to make sure nothing divides us.

I like Fr. Tom and the others, I just wish they would focus their energies and extraordinary abilities where it is needed the most, on ending the tragedy of abortion.

Posted by: Andrew at May 25, 2007 12:09 PM


I just signed it too.

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 12:13 PM


Thanks Bethany!

Posted by: Sandy at May 25, 2007 1:04 PM


"It never has been about saving money. It's always been about saving lives. And life is priceless."

Actually... beleive it or not... I have a few somewhat fundamentalists friends that I do lunch with on occasion. We've talked about abortion and, upon probing, more than once I found that an underlying concern was social security. In other words, these people were upset about abortion because these aborted fetuses could've grown-up and been working to help pay their social security when they retire.

Posted by: Cameron at May 25, 2007 1:42 PM


Thanks for your serious concern. After Dr. Dobson's many years of dedicated ministry, it is not surprising that you disapprove of our confronting him. If we are wrong, we deserve your criticism. And if the three following points are correct, then we ask you to reconsider this life and death matter.

1. The Gonzales v. Carhart PBA ruling instructs abortionists that they can legally continue to perform partial-birth abortions simply by delivering a late-term baby halfway (to his bellybutton), and then killing him by various methods including by ripping off his legs. (See the ruling itself or our analysis at:www.coloradorighttolife.org.) This is evil.

2. Most pro-life ministries have done many years of fundraising on this PBA ban, leading donors and Christians by the millions to believe the ban had the authority to save the lives of late-term babies even though they knew from the beginning this law did not have the authority to save a single child's life.

3. We are warning the many pro-life leaders who have become moral relativists that it is wrong to defend judges and rulings that violate God's enduring command, Do not murder. This happens commonly when officials affirm the killing of the innocent, as happened when Dr. Dobson defended Samuel Alito's 2000 ruling that kept partial-birth abortion legal in New Jersey. And now he defends this PBA ruling which optimistically suggests that abortionists "may find� less shocking methods to abort the fetus."

Some people who have been dismayed by our confronting of Focus on the Family have been even more shocked, to the point of disbelief, of what this brutally wicked ruling actually says, because they are not being told the truth by ministries they have grown to love and trust. We urge you to read carefully our open letter (earnestly co-signed by respected pro-life organizations like American Life League, Operation Rescue, Colorado Right To Life and Human Life International), and you can read the ruling itself. Then after you have more information, for Dr. Dobson's sake, and for the sake of the Body of Christ, and for the unborn who we are fighting for, please reconsider joining us in exposing moral relativism among Christian leaders, and in condemning any law or ruling that provides authority to intentionally kill an innocent person, thus undermining personhood and God-given right to life, which is the only place of safety for the unborn.

Leslie Hanks
V.P. Colorado Right to Life

Posted by: lesforlife Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 2:15 PM


Geh, it irritates me when PP is looked at as simply an abortion provider. For most college student's they are also the number one supplier of birth control, STD testing, and basic gynocological exams. Maybe there should be lobbying to remove the abortion service from their list- but taking the organization down all together would be a huge mess in the steps towards safer sex.

Posted by: Erin at May 25, 2007 2:26 PM


"We've talked about abortion and, upon probing, more than once I found that an underlying concern was social security. In other words, these people were upset about abortion because these aborted fetuses could've grown-up and been working to help pay their social security when they retire. "


LOL , kinda like how we need the illegals...

I have to doubt that was their main concern Cam...

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 2:30 PM


"Maybe there should be lobbying to remove the abortion service from their list-"

Really Erin? good for you!
how was the movie?

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 2:34 PM


Pay attention Jill... this is how to be zealot!

"...please reconsider joining us in exposing moral relativism among Christian leaders,"

Translation: are way only, or burn in hell.

"... and in condemning any law or ruling that provides authority to intentionally kill an innocent person, thus undermining personhood and God-given right to life, which is the only place of safety for the unborn."

Thus undermining personhood and denying everyone's god-given right to bodily autonomy so long as their body, or parts of it, might be used to keep others alive.

Posted by: Cameron at May 25, 2007 2:42 PM


jasper- the fight scenes and special effects were fantastic, but the ending was more than a little disappointing.

But then, I was drinking rum through the whole movie, so I might not be the best person to form an opinion yet.

Posted by: Erin at May 25, 2007 2:44 PM


"I have to doubt that was their main concern Cam..."

No, it probably wasn't, but I was shocked about how important it seemed to them... and in one case, the guy said it was the most important thing to him. That's just one guy though... he didn't believe in evolution either... but we both had an shared appreciation for good BBQ and a cold brew.

Posted by: Cameron at May 25, 2007 2:45 PM


"But then, I was drinking rum through the whole movie, so I might not be the best person to form an opinion yet."

Does that mean Danny Boy got lucky last night? Never mind, it's none of my business.


"but we both had an shared appreciation for good BBQ and a cold brew."

yes, we can't disagree about that...

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 2:52 PM


Cameron:

Do think that your fundametalist friends are that cynical? Have you asked them directly? Perhaps they were just stating one visible/tangible affect from killing off the unborn and not making a statement of why they were anti-abortion as a moral issue and not a financial concern.

I go on the record as stating that my concern for the unborn has nothing to do with social security or my retirement.

For me, I believe that if something isn't done about abortion soon, we may not have a country. That should concern all of us, don't you think?

I know you don't believe in my God, Jesus Christ (I think you've stated that many times), however, if we just assume that He is God as He claims for the sake of argument, don't you think, based on His nature, that He would do something soon to wake Christians/The Church up? Doesn't it seem that the warning signs are all around us like 9/11, terrorism, nuclear threats by Iran, escalating immorality, etc., or do you think these problems were just bound to happen anyway? Do you see any possible connection whatsoever and if not, why not?

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 2:55 PM


jasper- it means I was pretty drunk by the end of the movie. You're right, the rest of it is none of your business.

Posted by: Erin at May 25, 2007 2:55 PM


How is 9/11 a "wake up call" from God? Is that what Katrina was too HisMan?

Not being sarcastic, Please explain your thought process on that one to me...

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 3:09 PM


LesForLife:

My personal opinion is that until we take the 501c3 muzzle off of churches, which would ultimately result in more pro-life candidates elected to office, Roe v. Wade will not be repealed.

Perhaps Dobson is just taking what he can get in light of the monumental social forces stacked against him. I think he is wrong to cave, however, something is bette than nothing. At least he is trying.

I campaigned for a pro-life, Christian gubernatorial candidate last year and it was very difficult to get churches to buy in to supporting him. They were terrified of losing their tax-exempt status.

Pro-lifers should stop beating their heads against the wall by not changing their fundamental approach to ending abortion. It is insane to keep doing the same things that are not working and expect a different result.

I say we work to repeal the 501c3 muzzle on the church as it gives the state a way of directly controlling the church and essentially violates the free speech rights of believers.

If we can't repeal 501c3 tax laws, then churches should be willing to give up their tax exempt status. After all, wasn't it Paul who appealed to Ceasar at risk of his life? Who cares about losing a few dollars, some worthless pastor maybe?

Certainly a few godly preachers can start paying taxes so that they can endorse whomever they want in office. If they were smart, they'd eventually get enough Christians elected and in as short as 3 to 5 years, with majority control, we could then remove the tax muzzle from the pulpit.

Look, abortion still exists because of the church, not because of pro-aborts. You think they are more powerful than God? God is sitting there, waiting for the church-majora to step out in obedience. For 34 years I believe the church has been in rebellion on this issue because most preachers are afraid to talk about eliminating abortion rights. IT'S A SYMPTOM OF A VERY SICK CHURCH AND THE WORLD SEES IT. THIS MUST CHANGE OR THE CHURCH RISKS THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD. No the church needs to humble themselves, repent, pray, and turn from their wicked ways before God hears from heaven and heals our land.

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 3:15 PM


Jasper,

Kind of a tacky question to ask Erin don't you think?

Posted by: Mary at May 25, 2007 3:15 PM


I couldn't agree more HisMan, let start paying the darn taxes and start speaking up. The church has turned a deaf ear for too long.

"Look, abortion still exists because of the church, not because of pro-aborts"

Yes, the disgraceful Father Drinan (congressman) had alot to do with this in the seventies, then other fake catholic politicians followed in line.

Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 3:22 PM


"Jasper,

Kind of a tacky question to ask Erin don't you think?"


Mary,

We have to relax and take a joke once in a while....

sorry Erin...


Posted by: jasper Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 3:25 PM


jasper-

no problem, just on a forum where I know my sex life is already disapproved of, it's hard to know when people are joking sometimes.

Posted by: Erin at May 25, 2007 3:30 PM


Erin, how did you smuggle rum into the movie theatre? LOL I prefer Bud Lite myself.

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 3:33 PM


Heather: You take a *BIG* ourse with you. I always sneak in vodka when I go to the movies...

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 3:41 PM


Erin and Heather4life,

Even in my day (the stone age) we did it all the time! Boone's Farm and Annie Greensprings, real class wines, were always our favorites. Well, what did you expect for $1.98 a bottle?

Posted by: Mary at May 25, 2007 3:41 PM


Midnight678:

First, I am only a man and have no special prophetic gift. However, I listen to what scientists say, I can see trends and the signs of the times. If I see dark clouds accumulating over the nearby mountains, based on past experience, I know that there's a high likelihood that is will rain and thunder and lightning.

In the OT, when God's chosen people, the Jews disobeyed God, they were warned over and over and over again to turn back to Him. Finally, He used the Philistines, who for the Jews represented all that God was against, to destroy and take captive Israel.

By their own admission, Muslim fanatics hate Christians and Jews and have stated that they want to eliminate us. 9/11 was an attempt at that. It could very well be that God, despite His repeated warnings to the church to repent of their lukewarmness, would use Muslim fanatics to bring the church to its knees. I don't say I know this, however, I can observe trends and the signs of the times.

Katrina, I don't know? I can only observe. If you look at what scientists (these same scientists warned us about what happened in Katrina, N.O. below sea level and an inadequate levee system) say about the increasing probability of a devastating earthquakes on both coasts, as well in areas like new York and Tennesee, a possible meteor strike, a tsunami hitting the east coast due to volcanic action thousands of miles to the east, etc., etc. It makes you wonder. Seems like we're on the precipace of being hit hard and most people aren't willing to even take a look at it.

It wouldn't take much for terrorists to do a lot of physical and financial damage to this country with just a few suitcase, tactical nuclear weapons in let's say 5 to 10 cities. The stock markets and banking system would collapse overnight as investors would pull out. That would affect you and I immediately.

Maybe I am overreacting, however, usually before major bad things happen, we are given warnings, not always, but usually.

I know Cameron has a scientific mind, perhaps he can weigh in on this.

Please, I don't pretend to KNOW what all this means. I just think about this and I think it would be foolish not to at least consider a possible connection and do what we can do to avoid disastrous outcomes.

For me, it is my opinion that God is not pleased with an American church that has allowed the murder of innocent children in the womb for 34 years now. I know you probably think there is absolutely no connection whatsoever, and I hope you are right and I am wrong. I don't want to see anybody hurt in this country or anywhere. If I am right however, and all it took was for us as a nation to turn back to God so that He would not lift His hand of protection from us, then why not do it? Why take the risk?

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 3:45 PM


I'm an Oklahoma resident, and honestly, it made me cry to see this bill passed.

The message our legislature is sending is, "You can only get an abortion if you can afford it, poor women, go to hell".
I have never seen a more classist piece of legislation in my life.
I love Oklahoma, but I hate our "sin" laws that continue to enslave millions of people under an archaic, Christian rule.

Posted by: Jen C Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 3:46 PM


LOL- Those are both funny stories. I also recommend sneaking in your own food these days. After all, isn't a box of Junior Mints up to $100 a box? LOL!

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 3:47 PM


HisMan:

I don't consider those "signs" of anything. I think it was fanatics going too far. Although, considering I am not a religious person, this is not a surprising revelation from me. If God is supposed to be merciful, why would he *allow* 2000+ innocent people to do, and their innocent families to suffer? I think that would be a spiteful God and not a loving one that you claim to know.

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 3:59 PM


I've always taken all of these "disasters" as warning signs. Sometimes I think the end is near. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 4:10 PM


I've always taken all of these "disasters" as warning signs. Sometimes I think the end is near. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 4:10 PM


Heather:

That just does not sound like the loving and merciful God that y'all talk about. Why would he let disasters and terrorism happen to innocent people who follow him? That (again) sounds like a spiteful and hateful God that I would not want to follow or be remotely associated with (but that's my opinion).

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 4:35 PM


Heather4life,

I remember when 15 cents got you candy and popcorn and a quarter got you into the show.

Posted by: Mary at May 25, 2007 4:37 PM


Mmmm, popcorn. I was very depressed by the idea that, last night when I went to see Pirates, I couldn't have anything to eat because of my wisdom teeth removal. So depressing.

Posted by: HumanAbstract Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 4:54 PM


His Man,

Right you are, but don't expect the Churches to voluntarily
give up their tax exempt status. They are way too
comfortable in the million dollar mansion facilities
they create.

Posted by: lesforlife Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 5:27 PM


Wisdom teeth suck. I couldnt eat hard food for like three months after my surgery... Even now if a chip gets back there it hurts like hell (5 years later)...

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 5:29 PM


My wisdom teeth came out easily...but they were surgically removed because they hadn't come in yet.

Anyway, I was amused by the multiple Jack Sparrows in POTC 3...

"I found a peanut!"

Posted by: Rae at May 25, 2007 5:44 PM


Midnight678:

A merciful God saves our souls from eternal hell. That's why it says He dsciplines those whom He loves. While He is concerned for our temporal lives, I think He wants us to be saved eternally and for those of us that will listen he will sometimes give us a spanking. For those of us who don't listen, He says, " Have it your way and leaves us to our own desires and outcomes".

Please keep in mind we live in a fallen world. Not only were people affected but creation itself. The scientists that blog on this site can probably attest to the falleness of nature itself. The effects of sin are all around un including death, disease and destruction. I even think nature herself rages at its situation and Katrina was an example of that.

I don't believe God is out to get anyone, however, we must remember that He is perfectly Holy and possesses many charactersitics. While He is loving and merciful, He is also a God of justice and righteousness. We must remember that we are all fallen. We have no rights to question anything He does as it is never wrong and always for the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purposes.

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 5:59 PM


multiple Jack Sparrows? hmmm, I need to see the 2nd one and then I'll see the first one. No one ever wants to go the movies with me *sigh*

My wisdom teeth were a pain in the arse to get out b/c they'd already started comming in. That was more pain then when my appendix came out...

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 5:59 PM


I just don't understand how a loving and merciful God would allow such things to happen (this is the core of why I don't believe in him). He allows bad things to happen to good people, people who believe in him, as I once did. I know that probably a bunch of people in 9/11 and Katrine worshiped God and lived their life the way he would have wanted. So *why* would he allow them to suffer such a horrible death? I felt like I had prayed to a ceiling for half of my life.

It was always taught to me in Sunday School that the flood and Noah's Arc was the last spiteful thing God did, but I unfortuantely grew up. I dont know. Maybe this is just my though process on the whole situation.

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 6:05 PM


I'm not sure I want to spend money on a movie with a disappointing ending...though multiple Jack Sparrows might make it worth it....

Posted by: Heather B. at May 25, 2007 6:26 PM


"I just don't understand how a loving and merciful God would allow such things to happen (this is the core of why I don't believe in him). He allows bad things to happen to good people, people who believe in him"


Midnite, how would we know/understand what good is if we never experienced any bad.

Posted by: jasper at May 25, 2007 6:38 PM


Jasper, I have experienced bad in my life, and I am not even 23 yet, & I am sure I will experience more in my lifetime before I die.

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 6:50 PM


A merciful God saves our souls from eternal hell.

Unless we�re Muslim, Pagan, atheist, gay, lesbian, pro-choice, willing to have premarital sex�

though multiple Jack Sparrows might make it worth it.

Multiple and occasionally shirtless Jack Sparrows.

Yeah, the wisdom teeth thing sucks. I mean, there�s the pity aspect of it, which is nice, especially since I got ice cream (Ben and Jerry�s!) and miso soup. On the downside, sloppy movie makeouts are next to impossible with stitches in your gums.

Midnite, how would we know/understand what good is if we never experienced any bad.

So that justifies all the horrors that happen in the world?

Posted by: HumanAbstract Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 6:51 PM


Oh wait I read that post wrong. I am talking about utterly bad experiences to good people who shouldnt have to deal with it. I just dont understand and probably never will...

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 6:51 PM


Midnite678:

God proved He loves us more than we can imagine by dying on the cross for us.

We are sinners. Simply put, we can't meet God's standards. To sin means to miss the mark. We are all in the same boat and deserve death which is separation from God. However, we don't get what we deserve, in fact, we get what we don't deserve, a chance at eternal life.

God had no obligation to send Jesus, in fact, once Eve sinned, satan had a legal right for all of mankind's soul.

Try to remember that satan wants nothing more than to kill, steal and destroy, all of us.

All God requires is that we choose Him, evidenced by a life of faith, trust and obedience. Not perfection, because already built into that formula is a solution to our sin and death problem called repentance, confession and forgiveness. A holy God, in order to maintain His integrity must allow everything that happens on earth to play itself out in time including all the suffering, seemingly unanswered prayers, disappointments, betrayals, etc. However he promises final victory over all this if we would just accept and believe in His Son. Paul encouraged us to fight the good fight of faith.

That's why faith is necessary. We just can't have or know all the answers right now. For me, it's enough to know that God loves me, litlle ole me enough to give Himself for me. I accept that at face value and leave the rest up to God. 70 or 80 years or so on this earth holds no desire for me compared to an eternity with the Creator who loved me and gave Himself for me. My life's desire is to go to heaven and take as many with me as I can.....even Cameron. Yes, I care about him....I was there once.

I know you know the Lord's prayer. Write it down on a piece of paper and savor each word and sentence. See if that helps you understand more about God. Remember, Jesus Christ, who intimately knew the Father taught that it His will that should be done not ours. Jesus must have known something that we need to know, i.e., the incomprehensible scope and immensity of God Himself.

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 7:07 PM


Less,

You know that sarcasm makes having an intelligent conversation impossible. Yes, I am guilty of it as well, however, I am trying to control the urge at a jab.

Midnight is asking some real questions and I am trying to give her thoughtful answers.

Could you please refrain from wasting my time unless you can contribute something constructive to the conversation?

Or, would you like to bear the eternal consequences of her soul in partnering with satan to mislead her?

Posted by: HisMan at May 25, 2007 7:12 PM


Im fairly sure that Midnight is fairly content in her beliefs, HisMan. Or, would you like to bear the eternal consequences of her soul in partnering with satan to mislead her? Im fairly sure that Im not partnered with satan, and that I dont particularly care who believes what, actually.

Posted by: HumanAbstract Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 7:17 PM


HisMan that's one of the biggest problems I have; faith. I cant believe in something that I cant see, feel, hear etc. I know what faith is and what it requires of me, but I just don't have the strength in me to try and believe. I've tried so hard at times, and I know that no one is perfect, but I find some churches and followers hypocrites for the things they preach and then they do the opposite. Trust me, my life would be a lot easier if I could believe. My mother and father would stop hounding me so much to go to church with them. I just lost my faith/path along time ago and dont think I could find the way back even if I wanted to. I am not sure if I want to believe any more, although I am not completely against the idea. I dont know..

Does any of that make sense to you?

Posted by: midnite678 at May 25, 2007 7:21 PM


"Multiple and occasionally shirtless Jack Sparrows."

Grrface. I hate being poor.

Maybe I'll just wait until they show it at the drive-in. That way, at least, I'll get two movies for the price of one!

Posted by: Heather B. at May 25, 2007 7:36 PM


Do it, Heather B! The ending made me sad, but the shirtless Jacks certainly didn't!

Posted by: HumanAbstract Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 7:37 PM


Throughout history God has sent messengers, or prophets, to warn of impending disasters.

Mary, is often used to impart these messages.

In 1917, during world war I, three shepherd children were appeared to by our lady and given the following message...

To save them [poor sinners who are on the road to hell], God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse war will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions against the Church and against the Holy Father.

To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.1

The messages were ignored for the most part and sure enough world war II broke on out on a night when the aurora borealis strangely appeared in a part of the world that it never happens in...thus fulfilling the prophecy of the "strange lights"...

There are literally hundreds of examples like this, but my leg is killing me so I can't stay on long...

Here is one that talks about the times we are in now...

Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser (17th century, Germany)

"The fifth period of the Church, which began circa 1520, will end with the arrival of the holy Pope and of the powerful Monarch who is called "Help From God" because he will restore everything. The fifth period is one of affliction, desolation, humiliation, and poverty for the Church. Jesus Christ will purify His people through cruel wars, famines, plagues, epidemics, and other horrible calamities. He will also afflict and weaken the Latin Church with many heresies. It is a period of defections, calamities and exterminations. Those Christians who survive the sword, plague and famines, will be few on earth.

Saint Jude the Apostle "During this period, many men will abuse the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude, the Apostle, spoke when he said: 'These men blaspheme- whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do. . . They feast together without restraint, feeding themselves, grumbling murmurers, walking according to their lusts; their mouth speaketh proud things, they admire people for the sake of gain; they bring about division, sensual men, having not the spirit.'

"During this unhappy period, there will be laxity in divine and human precepts. Discipline will suffer. The Holy Canons will be completely disregarded, and the Clergy will not respect the laws of the Church. Everyone will be carried away and led to believe and to do what he fancies, according to the manner of the flesh. They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of the law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguments. As a result, no principle at all, however holy, authentic, ancient, and certain it may be, will remain free of censure, criticism, false interpretations, modification and delimitation by man."

"These are evil times, a century full of dangers and calamities. Heresy is everywhere, and the followers of heresy are in power almost everywhere. Bishops, prelates, and priests say that they are doing their duty, that they are vigilant, and that they live as befits their state in life. In like manner, therefore, they all seek excuses. But God will permit a great evil against His Church: Heretics and tyrants will come suddenly and unexpectedly; they will break into the Church while bishops, prelates, and priests are asleep. They will enter Italy and lay Rome waste; they will burn down the churches and destroy everything."

AND

Fr. Nectou, S.J. (18th century)

"The confusion will be so general that men will not be able to think aright, as if God had withheld His Providence from mankind, and that, during the worst crisis, the best that can be done would be to remain where God has placed us, and persevere in fervent prayers....At that time there will be such a terrible crisis that people will believe that the end of the world has come. Blood will flow in many large cities. The very elements will be convulsed. It will be like a little General Judgement."

"A great multitude of people will lose their lives in those calamitous times, but the wicked will not prevail. They will indeed attempt to destroy the whole Church, but not enough time will be allowed them, because the frightful crisis will be of short duration. When all is considered lost, all will be found safe. This disaster will come to pass shortly after the power of England begins to wane. This will be the sign. As when the fig tree begins to sprout and produce leaves, it is a sure sign that summer is near. England in her turn will experience a more frightful revolution than that of France. It will continue long enough for France to recover her strength; then she will help England to restore peace and order."

"During this revolution, which will very likely be general and not confined to France. Paris will be destroyed so completely that twenty years afterwards fathers walking over its ruins with their children will be asked by them what kind of place that was; to whom they will answer: 'My child, this was a great city which God has destroyed on account of her crimes."


If you are reading these it will be well worth my time to give you more, but otherwise the pain isn't worth it...

You ask why a merciful God would do this?

Well, it's like that old question the six year old asks when watching a war movie..."Mom, which ones are the bad guys?"

Kind of depends on what side of the war you're on.
If you are pro-choice, pro-sex, pro-anything anti-God, you would see this as unmerciful...

But if you are the babies being aborted, you might be grateful that God was doing something to save you...to these babies, God would seem very merciful indeed!

And from His perspective, if you are killing yourselves and each other with certain lifestyle choices, it would be a merciful thing to stop people from spreading their "moral disease" to the next generation.

Is it not merciful to quarantine Ebola victims? Is it not merciful to contain the diseased persons, and stop the spread of this sickness to the general public. Would it be more merciful to turn a blind eye and call it misguided tolerance?

I think the most merciful thing you can do sometimes is actually the hardest!

But this is why we pray, and sacrifice, incessantly, hoping that our sacrifices will offset some of the moral corruption and stave off His judgment.

If any of you read my Divine Mercy post awhile back, you'd know that through Sr. Faustina we know that this particular period in time is a time of GREAT MERCY, but that when the Mercy ends, the judgment will begin. This was told to her by Jesus in appartitions that lasted for years. This, according to St. Faustina, is the last chance we have to offer up holocausts and sacrifices. Every time you offer something up, one more soul can be saved...before it's too late.

Just a little Catholic perspective...

Gotta go lie down now...my leg is screaming...

Miss you all...
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 7:40 PM


Midnite,

"I just don't understand how a loving and merciful God would allow such things to happen (this is the core of why I don't believe in him). He allows bad things to happen to good people, people who believe in him"

Ahhh, but you see suffering is the key to everything. We were taught this by the Master Sufferer! Suffering, when offered up, offsets evil. When Jesus suffered death on the cross He conquered Evil for good...and He taught us that to deal with Evil, we must also sacrifice willingly, by suffering willingly, thus carrying our little tiny slivers of the cross with Him. When we accept our suffering with a smile, when we understand that it is an invitation to climb up on the cross with Him, and overcome Evil, it ceases to be "bad things happening to good people" and instead becomes "good things that appear bad happening to good people for the sake of people making bad choices..."

Valerie,
Are you confused?

Suffering, is only "sad" when it is wasted. When it is seen as an opportunity, it stops being suffering and becomes joy...

mk


Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 7:51 PM


ARRRGGGGHHH,

You people have sucked me in...

One last thought...

When you think of life in terms of being Temporal, or simply ending in death, then of course suffering seems awful.

But what is a bad thing?

If the goal is to get to paradise, then suffering is just a step on the ladder. It stops being about "losing someone you love" and becomes "sending someone off to where he was born to go".

Or getting an awful disease, stops being about lying in bed moaning, and becomes a way to offer reparation for your family members.

If every person in the world believed and lived their faith, evil would disappear. But as long as people remain, that don't believe, we have to have suffering (just like Jesus) to eliminate those evils.

Again, remember that all time is the same for God. So even though He died once for us, and conquered death, in His eyes He did not do this 2000 years ago. He is doing it NOW. Because NOW to him IS 2000 years ago. And 2000 year from now...

This is why we get to participate in His crucifixion. If we say "yes" to His invitation.

Is any of this making sense? I swear I haven't had any vicadin since last Saturday...and I'm pretty sure the morphine has left the building...

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at May 25, 2007 7:59 PM


lesforlife, I am not quite certain of the motive you give for going after Dr. Dobson.

I can understand you not liking or even agreeing with the ban on PBA. Nobody ever said it was perfect and nobody ever thought it was going to the be the bill that ends abortion.

It seems to me that holding to the "purist" position actually ensures that abortions continue. After all, if there is a way to reduce abortions through incremental legislation, and you refuse to endorse or work towards the passage of such legislation, then you're only real contribution to the whole process is to enable it to continue.

This seems powerfully negative to me and I know from first-hand experience that when pro-life groups attack each other, it usually rips a hole in the relationship that is never fixed until leadership changes.

Besides, how much did that full-page ad in the paper cost? $10,000, $15,000? That is a lot of donor cash that most likely could have been spent better somewhere else.

Posted by: Andrew at May 25, 2007 8:50 PM


MK, HOPE YOU ARE OKAY!!!!

Posted by: Heather4life at May 25, 2007 10:02 PM


welcome-back MK, hope you're feeling better, I think I heard you had an operation of some sort.

Posted by: jasper at May 25, 2007 10:02 PM


I never thought I'd hear myself say this but I agree with HisMan that churches should be taxed.

Posted by: SoMG at May 26, 2007 4:21 AM


I say we work to repeal the 501c3 muzzle on the church as it gives the state a way of directly controlling the church and essentially violates the free speech rights of believers.
If we can't repeal 501c3 tax laws, then churches should be willing to give up their tax exempt status. After all, wasn't it Paul who appealed to Ceasar at risk of his life? Who cares about losing a few dollars, some worthless pastor maybe?
Certainly a few godly preachers can start paying taxes so that they can endorse whomever they want in office. If they were smart, they'd eventually get enough Christians elected and in as short as 3 to 5 years, with majority control, we could then remove the tax muzzle from the pulpit.

Hisman, that was a very good point. I completely agree!

Posted by: Bethany at May 26, 2007 7:28 AM


I just don't understand how a loving and merciful God would allow such things to happen (this is the core of why I don't believe in him). He allows bad things to happen to good people, people who believe in him, as I once did. I know that probably a bunch of people in 9/11 and Katrine worshiped God and lived their life the way he would have wanted. So *why* would he allow them to suffer such a horrible death? I felt like I had prayed to a ceiling for half of my life.
It was always taught to me in Sunday School that the flood and Noah's Arc was the last spiteful thing God did, but I unfortuantely grew up. I dont know. Maybe this is just my though process on the whole situation.

Midnite, I have been where you are, and I remember feeling the way you are feeling right now.

I will try to answer your question to the best of my ability...

Throughout the Bible, you'll find accounts of innocent people who have gone through trials, torture, and death...people who were God's Children...people who others could have looked at and said, "They didn't deserve to be treated like that."

I believe that since God created us, and He knows what happens after we die, and he ultimately knows what is best in every situation, that there are some things we may not understand, but are perfectly within God's perfect plan.

I believe as the Bible says that God's ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. If he created us, gave life to us, I believe He knows in the end what is best for us. Even if we can't see beforehand how it is best for us.

In the very beginning, Cain killed his innocent brother Abel. God allowed this to happen, and He did not intervene.

We don't always know the reasons God allows things. But I do know one thing, God was watching, God kept record of this evil, and he held Cain accountable for the blood of his brother.

And now, Abel would have to be in Heaven.

There is also the story of Lazarus, which was a parable that Jesus used to make a point about life...
There was a rich man who had everything he needed in life, and there was a poor man, Lazarus, who was full of sores and laid at the rich mans' gate.
He wished to be fed, not even by much, just by the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table.
The rich man never helped lazarus, and Lazarus suffered his entire life. If this situation happened today, no doubt, we'd all be wondering, what did Lazarus do to deserve this kind of life?

What ended up happening in the parable?
The beggar died, and the rich man died. The rich man who had not helped Lazarus was punished, Lazarus was comforted for all of eternity.

When innocent little brother Joseph was sold into slavery by his bigger brothers who were jealous of his father's favoritism towards Joseph, God allowed this to happen.

Eventually this resulted in the salvation of thousands of people who would have otherwise died of starvation.

The blind man in the new testament, who had been blind since birth, the disciples asked Jesus, "Who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" Even the disciples couldn't understand why God lets these things happen to people. Jesus answered that the reason this man had been blind from birth was to manifest the Glory of God.
The man had gone through his entire life blind, for that very moment.

Job was a very good man, as you can see in the Bible.
Job's suffering, through losing his family, his livestock, his home, everything he knew as his.... was not something that we would consider "fair", however, God had a plan for it. It was through this story that God was able to reveal many truths to Job. He also used this story to teach others about the faith of a man such as Job. Someone who had enough faith that in the midst of that much suffering, would still refuse to condemn God!
It was like the blind man's story...it was done to give glory to God.

Jesus death, it was not what we would consider fair. Jesus was an innocent man, who came to earth to help people...but he also had another purpose...to give us a way to atone for our sins. His death was cruel and viscious..... his body was so torn by the instruments of torture that the Bible states that he wasn't even recognizable as a man. He was made to carry his heavy cross after being cruelly tortured...his beard was ripped out...he was spit on, his hands and feet were nailed to a cross and he was hung there to die, and given vinegar to drink when he begged for a drink.

All of this was according to God's glory. Why would God's son suffer and die for us, if God did not care about us?

According to the Bible, God is the potter, and we are the clay. He molds us according to His will.

"For who hath resisted his will? Nay, but who art thou, O man, that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed Say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor"

God uses the circumstances in our lives (whether He caused them to happen or not) to mold us into something that can be used according to His will.

I hope this has been somewhat helpful to you. I also used to have the same questions, but the only way I was able to answer those questions was to actually search the Bible myself, instead of taking what people told me about the Bible, without actually seeing what it said for myself. I read that if you draw near to God, God will draw near to you. Try praying to God, and asking Him to show you the answers to your questions...then open your Bible and read...a good place to start is John, and the three Johns right before Jude and Revelation. :)


Posted by: Bethany at May 26, 2007 8:04 AM


Midnight678:

I am sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner. Last night my daughter graduated from high school. She was selected to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Christian flag. Later in the evening she received the Christian Character in Life and Leadership Award which was voted on by the staff and faculty of the school. For me, this was the highest award a person could achieve that night. To be honored by those who have known you for 13 years and be recognized for how your life mirrors that of Christ, well, that does it for me. My wife and I couldn't hold back the tears.

So, please forgive me for not getting back to you. I care about you as well.

The fact that you still struggle with faith is a good thing. That's the holy Spirit tugging at your heart. God is not called the "hound of heaven" for nothing. He wants nothing more than spend eternity with you.

If we try to "do" faith on our own, we will fail. This is a constant battle for me, to let go, but I am learning. Trusting and faithing is a constant learning process. God is preparing us for eternity.

I agree with MK and Bethany that the key is to trust. And Bethany's examples were simply excellent. As much as your parents want for you to go back to church, this is not about them. This is between you and the God who loves you more than you can imagine. It's real, it's forever, and you can bet your life on it. I believe that the God who started a good work in you will not fail to complete it. He does not fail.

I suggest just getting alone with God, no noise, no one around, and just pour out your heart out to Him. If you're mad, let Him know. He's our daddy, our "Abba Father". You can tell Him anything and he won't reject you. Then, once you have poured out your heart to Him, just sit back, be quiet, and listen for that still quiet voice. He won't shout at you, demean you, or criticize you.

Early this morning, I picked up my daughter from an all-night grad party at about 4:30 pm. We had a good talk on the way home. She said Dad, "You know what Mrs. Petrucci said about the Robert Frost poem about the road less traveled, I'm taking that road in college. I want to go a few weeks early and set up a leadership team because I'm really concerned about kids getting away from God."

When I got home, I tried to go back to sleep, and all I could do was cry in my pillow and say to my Lord, "Thank you Lord, for such a beautiful and wonderul daughter and I said this over, and over, and over again." This is how God rewards us. This is something that can't be purchased or bought or acquired, it can only come by being faithful.

Midnight, I don't know what God has planned for you, however, I know He can be trusted. Whatever is in the future for you, it is more than you can ask or imagine. Let Him in, give Him a chance. Fall in love with Him, you will not regret it.

Posted by: HisMan at May 26, 2007 8:48 AM


I agree with Erin on this one, and not because she's my girlfriend. Planned Parenthood does provide a lot of positive services for women, and if anything should be lobbied against, it should just be the abortion services. There are some PP clinics out there that don't perform abortions, but personally, if a woman is going to get one, I'd rather her get it at a safe place like PP than somewhere sketchy.

PS Jasper, please don't call or refer to me as Danny Boy. I like the song, but not the name

PPS RUM IS AMAZING!

Posted by: Dan at May 26, 2007 3:21 PM


"and if anything should be lobbied against, it should just be the abortion services."

Dan, would you support this lobbying?

Posted by: jasper at May 26, 2007 8:51 PM


It depends really. While I support pro-choice, I would rather have the woman exhaust every option before resorting to abortion. Abortion, in my opinion, should only be used as a last resort, when there is absolutely no other option for the woman to turn to. If they lobbied to shut down the abortion section of PP, though, I don't think I'd support it, considering what they did for Erin and I.

Posted by: Dan at May 27, 2007 4:46 PM


I'm curious...what is your reasoning for that, Dan?

Why do you wish for it to be used only as a last resort?

Posted by: Bethany at May 27, 2007 6:38 PM


I am shocked at how "off topic" the conversations get here and would love to respond to all of the various topics! If you want to discuss various subjects like "Why God allows suffering" and "Are these the end times?" I would recommend a discussion forum like www.theologyonline.com

As for the topic at hand, I have not seen a link to the Open Letter to Dr. Dobson here, and if you plan to comment on it, I would suggest you read it!!!!

http://coloradorighttolife.org/openletter

Please read the letter and then stay on topic!

Posted by: james at May 27, 2007 7:27 PM


Abortion should be abolished. It should be illegal! Anyone caught participating in it should be charged as a crminal.

Posted by: Heather4life at May 31, 2007 6:49 AM


"I'm curious...what is your reasoning for that, Dan?

Why do you wish for it to be used only as a last resort?"

I don't think that abortion should be used as a quick-fix for a pregnancy. I think it should be a last resort for people who don't have any other options that will allow them to continue on with their lives normally. I don't think a rape victim should have to carry the embryo of the man who raped her. I don't think a freshman in college should have to carry an embryo just because someone believes that that embryo has a right to life. Don't those two women have a right to a normal life as well? Most people nowadays seem to believe that abortion is the quicker-fixer-upper for a pregnancy, and it's really not. If you don't want to have a child, wear a condom. It's that simple.

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