I respectfully disagree. This bill cannot be used against abortion. Stillbirth and abortion are not the same. One is naturally occuring, the other is not. One happens at an early gestational age. The other occurs at term, when abortions in every state are illegal. And one is a wanted and loved baby and the other, sadly, is not. But the most significant threat is that each state ALREADY currently offers a DEATH CERTIFICATE for stillborn babies, and mandates burial. This has been the law since the inception of vital records. If a birth certificate for stillbirth threatens in any way, then these laws would have already overturned Roe. After all, how can the state tell a woman she has to bury someone who did not exist?

"recognizing a nonviable fetus as a person would in some way be a seed that could sprout into a threat to abortion"

haha very interesting slip of the tongue.

I think it's dispicable that these people would disregard the feelings of so many mothers (and fathers) to stillborn children, just to keep their agenda safe. Pro-woman? I don't think so. Time and time it's proven again and again. It's not women they care about. It's not families they care about. And it's not about wanted children (because these are obviously wanted babies who are stillborn). It's about promoting their agenda that sex is to be regarded above human life.

I remember reading that they were discussing not giving birth certificates to children b orn at 22 weeks alive because this often occurs after abortion.

This was in England.

Can you imagine having your child be born prematurely, but alive and having the hospital tell you "well, we're not going to give him a birth certificate because it might hurt the feelings of mothers who abort their children"?

Can you imagine having your child be born prematurely, but alive and having the hospital tell you "well, we're not going to give him a birth certificate because it might hurt the feelings of mothers who abort their children"?

Tell me about it! That is just ridiculous.

I think most women who have stillbirths have other issues on their minds than whether or not a birth certificate should be issued.

Well, you'd be wrong, SOMG.

"Every year, some 35,000 women deliver babies who die just before or during birth. A number of parents say their grief over the tragic loss is made worse because most states simply issue death certificates, never recognizing the birth of their stillborn offspring.

“My stillborn baby was the prettiest baby of all of my five children. She looked perfect. She was so well-nourished she had rolls of fat around her cheeks and knees. But she never took a breath and never made a sound,” said Arizona resident Joanne Cacciatore.

“After I left the hospital, I got her death certificate in the mail, and they told me state law required me to bury or cremate the body,” Cacciatore said. But Arizona never issued a birth certificate. “How can you have a death, if you never have a birth?” she asked."

Read the rest here.

http://www.missfoundation.org/

I think 35,000 may be a typo but I'm not sure. I read in other places it is 3500.

I am not understanding what exactly this has to do with abortion...

We argue over a piece of paper as if it changes what's inside the mother, a human being.

To think that aborted babies are not even given the dignity of a burial or service is very hard to take.

The ultimate rejection of one so innocent, so defenseless, so pure, a gift from God Himself, abortion represents all that is base in the world. It's the all encompassing symbol and result of self-interest, pride, fear, dishonesty, sexual immorality, and self-deception all packaged into the "right" of a woman. No, it is not a "right" it is a grotesque "wrong".

If you pro-aborts want to keep abortion legal, then at least admit that it is a human being that upon being aborted deserves to be recognized as such by being given a name and a service and a resting place. What? Can't handle that?

"Cherie Golant has three photos of her daughter Julia at birth. She has a lock of Julia's newborn hair, thick and dark. She has Julia's handprints, footprints and hospital wristbands.

She also has memories of 30 hours of grueling labor -- but no official record of Julia's birth.

Julia was stillborn, with her umbilical cord around her neck. The state issued only a death certificate.

"I remember my discharge nurse said to me, 'You are still a mom. Don't forget that,' " said Golant of San Francisco. "It was amazing to me how important those words were in the days and weeks after my daughter died. But there was no official evidence I was a mom. I had the milk in my breasts and the potbelly of a postpartum mom, but I didn't have a birth certificate."

It is more than a piece of paper to many of the nearly 3,000 families that cope with stillbirth each year in California. They are anxiously watching Senate Bill 850, which would authorize the state to issue a "certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth." It is headed to the Senate Health Committee on Wednesday for its first in a long line of hearings. "

"I held my daughter for many hours," Pert said. "The only gift I could give her was giving birth to her, and there is no record of it."

"Having a birth certificate doesn't take away any of the pain," said Catriona Harris, who gave birth to her stillborn son Brady in San Francisco in 2005. He was wrapped in his umbilical cord. "But it is just an acknowledgement that you did carry him for nine months and his memory does live on."

HisMan:

Why must you call pro-choice people "Pro Aborts"? I am not pro abortion. I resent that stero type and wish you say pro choice. Since you are so politically correct and all.

No, the number IS between 25-30K per year- about 1 in 100 babies! More than 10x the number who die of SIDS. See:

http://www.missingangelsbill.org

Watch their PSA. It is a heartbreaker.

I think, in most states, you can get a birth certificate for a still born anyhow simply by paying the fee, whether or not the state has recently passed legislation saying you can. Vital Statistics offices, in most cases, are sensative to the loss and will not deny such requests, so long as a corresponding death certificat has also been issued, and there is not a non-living person in their system as living person.

I really don't know what the fuss is about unless the states are going to "require" that abortions have certificates. That would be an invasion of privacy problem that wouldn't withstand a court challenge.

I don't have a problem with this. At all. A woman who gives birth is justified in wanting a birth certificate, even if the baby is not alive. She still went through labor. I would agree that I'm not sure if it would be the first thing on a woman who has lost a child's mind, but I don't have a problem.

And I agree with midnite, I don't call people on here anti-choicers, even though I find the term pro-life to be a misnomer. It would be nice to have it work both ways.

it really doesn't matter what you want to be called "pro-choice" or "pro-abortion", it is either wanting to kill a child or allowing a child to be killed.

"I don't have a problem with this. At all. A woman who gives birth is justified in wanting a birth certificate, even if the baby is not alive. She still went through labor."

Really Erin? Why would you give a birth certificate to a fetus that was never an "independent life" (your words). Rememeber you said below 22 weeks the fetus did not have a life of it's own and it was Ok to kill it if the mother felt like it.

Your views don't square. wishy-washy, wishy-washy, wishy-washy

Midnight678:

Look, if you are pro-choice which could result in an abortion of a baby, then you are for abortion. You can't be for something that results in another thing and then refused to be described by the final result. It's just not honest.

I like to deal in truth. I will stop calling pro-aborts, pro-aborts when they stop being for a choice that most of the time results in an abortion. Please don't let those with an agenda cloud your clear thinking abilities. Don't let them hijack your integrity as well. Do this for yourself. This will infest every oterh part of your character as well and you won't know it until the damage is done.

Why don't you want to be called what you are? Is it offensive to you? If so, why is it offensive? Tell me how being pro-choice is not pro-abortion. If you are not pro-abortion, then what besides pro-choice do I call you. For the purposes of debate, I need to be able to address you for what you stand for. Are you a pro-choice anti-abortionist? How does that work?

I am pro-life. You can call me anti-abortion, anti-death-choice, a homophobe, a bigot, a woman-hater, whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that I want to defend the life of every innocent, defenseless human being in the womb as well as the long term physical, emotional and spiritual well-being of the mother.

what is so bad about called Pro-Abort? why, it's legal, there's nothing to ashamed of. I don't mind being called pro-life. Remember Midnite and Erin, you are FOR abortion, you don't think there's anything wrong it. I wouldn't be so sensitive, if I thought abortion should be my constitional right, I would fervantly be behind it.

exactly, it's life versus death. pro-life or pro-death.

"...that most of the time results in an abortion"

Retard! Most pregnant women have the kid.

"Is it offensive to you?"

This from the man behind the psuedonym who takes offense at our mere exhistance.

"It doesn't change the fact that I want to defend the life of every innocent, defenseless human being in the womb as well as the long term physical, emotional and spiritual well-being of the mother."

And end those lives which oppose your notions.

i don't think he wants to end your life, in fact he is not wanting to end anyone's life, born or unborn. He wants others to stop ending lives!

The pious terd is an internet bully, and seems to have no quams about hostility, so long as he can rationalize it.... not unlike a psycho killer.

i assume you are not talking about yourself there, so i'm curious who you are talking about. need i remind you of your post

"And end those lives which oppose your notions."

Cameron,

Again, you are trying to provoke me? Sorry, not gonna let that happen any more. Remember my warning sonny boy.

I will go on record that I don't want to end any pro-abort's life, just their anti-baby stance.

I don't take offense at your existence just the way you treat people and babies in the womb.

I don't want to end the lives that oppose my notions. No I want to bring them to the One who can save them from eternal death.

Hey Cameron, have you ever explored the effects of exogenous nutrient limitations on bleaching related dynamics of Aiptasia pallida, a sea anemone containing symbiotic dinoflagellates?

"I think most women who have stillbirths have other issues on their minds than whether or not a birth certificate should be issued."

Posted by: SoMG at May 23, 2007 10:09 AM

What an ignorant comment. Who do you think initiates these bills??? The very women you feel "have other issues on their minds".
These women want their babies validated and acknowledged.

This again is a prime example of how the "pro-choice" movement uses the word choice only when it comes to choosing abortion.

A woman wanting a birth certificate for her child is a "choice" so why don't you support that choice?????

Your "choice" only applies to women who decide to murder their innocent baby and have the remains disposed of like it was yesterday's garbage.

This is another great example of why the lable pro-abort is a much more appropriate than pro-choice.

I personally have no problem with issuing birth certificates to stillborn babies...they are born afterall. Though I still don't think it should matter if you were "officially" a parent or not.

On another note, I hope Bill Richardson gets the Democratic nod for President. :D

If you're born, you get a birth certificate. There you go. I don't see the problem with it.

Oh Cameron[aka Geek Boy] get over it! You come onto this site and instigate everything! Don't paint yourself into the "victim corner." Some of these pro CHOICE women find you cute and amusing. I find you pathetic and disgusting. You're not even funny! Any pro choice woman should see that you obviously dislike women. His new big word of the day is pious! He traded vacuous for that.

Cameron/Geek Boy, why do you always sling around the word retarded? Do you find that funny? Would you make fun of a retarded person walking down the street? Do you kick puppies for fun? What kind of an animal are you?

"Why don't you want to be called what you are? Is it offensive to you? If so, why is it offensive? Tell me how being pro-choice is not pro-abortion"
----------------------------
Do I find it offensive? No not really. But I am one of those people who is "politically coreect" with terms and NOT sterotyping. Am I pro-abortion? No, I honestly dont like them. I would never have one (unles I was raped or my life was in danger). I am not an abortion doctor either, so technically no, I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice, meaning I am for the choice of a woman. Should that choice be abortion, adoption or raising the child herself. I feel that I do not have the right to tell another woman what to do with her life.

I'll ask you one more time not to call me pro-abort, I am pro-choice.

Ahhh more internet bullying from the Jesus nut job.

"Again, you are trying to provoke me? Sorry, not gonna let that happen any more. Remember my warning sonny boy."

Looks like it just did.

"No I want to bring them to the One who can save them from eternal death."

Nuf said! Thanks, that's all I needed.

"Hey Cameron, have you ever explored the effects of exogenous nutrient limitations on bleaching related dynamics of Aiptasia pallida, a sea anemone containing symbiotic dinoflagellates?"

Gosh HisMan, what are you trying to imply here? It kind of sounds like... OMG... could be... another threat. Perhaps you actually have some questions regarding Cnidarian-algal symbiosis though...BTW... posting personal information about another party is also breaking the law.

However, unlike you, I’ve made no attempt to hide my identity (e.g. name, e-mail address shared, etc...). Coward!

BTW.. I kept everything you said yesterday too because, unlike what I said, it actually breaks the law.

With this final tid bit, I can now file a police report, and start the "credible threat" documentation... which constitutes terrorism under current laws.

Now... do you wish to continue threatening me every time I insult you after you insulted me?

Perhaps, rather than getting mad at people who employ wit against you, you should try wit yourself.... but I guess you don’t have the wits for it.

Again, thanks for playing.

"Cameron/Geek Boy, why do you always sling around the word retarded?"

Well.. it's called a characterization... as opposed to my insults which tend to be little more creative. Walks like duck, quacks like a duck....

Let me guess, you must think that more pregnant women are getting abortions than actually having babies?

"Why must you call pro-choice people "Pro Aborts"? I am not pro abortion. I resent that stero type and wish you say pro choice."

Give it up, midnite...They like Pro-abort because it makes the pro-choice movement sound bad.

Hey Cameron..
Don't get me wrong, I like you, you're entertaining, and between all the insults and things you've got good points to make. But, would you please lay off HisMan?

You two already beat that to the ground yesterday, let's pick up and MOVE ON.

And HisMan, be the bigger man and don't respond to Cameron anymore about this? He has stopped making comments about your daughter.

Same goes for you, Cameron.

Stephanie,

It just angers me when people dont use the corecct terms for people/things. Do I call HisMan a bible thumping fanatic? No, I should, but I dont. I say he's a devout Christian b/c it is the "politically coreect" thing to say.

I am not understanding what exactly this has to do with abortion...

Uhhhhh...welllll....it shouldn't. But because somehow someway the pro-aborts feel that it may somehow someway infringe on thier "rights" they have taken a stance against this initiative.

As stated in the article above:
"In some states, local chapters of abortion rights groups have opposed the legislation."

Here again, another fine example of how the pro-aborts like to throw women under their own big giant money making bus.

I left for a while. What happened? Did I get under your skin Geek Boy? Looks like a hornets nest here.

Cameron, Please don't take up for MY gender. You do a pi** poor job!

"It just angers me when people dont use the corecct terms for people/things."

midnite, if this is how you feel than you must call an unborn child a human and abortion, murder. If I'm correct, they actually have to do something violent to the baby in order for it to die, it doesn't just die on it's own correct?

why does anyone even converse with cameron, it seems as though we could ignore him and get just as far.

Sometimes I wish my baby would stay little for just a little bit longer, if we could come up with a drug to stunt the growth of a child until we wanted him to grow... hmmm. Any "pro-choice" think that's ok?

@luvmy5kids: My mom would love that...she misses having my brothers and I be babies...because we didn't talk back and we were less annoying then too. :)

So you're not alone in that aspect.

luvmy5kids, Personally I have tried, but sometimes it's not easy. Especially when he uses the term retard and tard. He's obviously immature. He's an internet troll for sure. I guess that there are times that I just feel like dishing it back. People have even tried to be nice to this loser. He just keeps coming back.

luvmy5kids:

Hmm, Considering abortion is not murder, no I dont call it that, and neither does half of America. I will call a fetus a human when it is born.

"Same goes for you, Cameron."

I appreciate your interest in stopping this BS, however, this is not tit for tat insults, and I find it alarming that nobody here wants to acknowledge what is really happening. I start out with a discussion, he insults me, most of the time I ignore, but last time I insulted back. Today I pointed out the stupidity in one of his diatribes, and the same thing happens again. It looks like it's always going to escalate to threats from him. I can understand one embarrassingly bad day, but this is two days in a row now.

HisMan does not want to see or read my posts here, at all, period, whether or not I insult him, and he’s begged for my banning more than once... particularly if I make a good point. As a result, he is trying silence me by intimidating me. That's not right, no matter how annoying I may be, and I will continue to post here, and continue to insult him when he acts a fool. Bottom line, I haven't broken any laws, and exaggerating my antics to the level of sexual harassment in order to justify threats isn't going to fly with anyone outside of this vacuous lil' clique.

OK, the fact that it has a birth certificate verifies that the woman popped the baby out of her birth canal. Which is true whether or not you have a stillborn. It does not change the fact that the stillborn baby IS DEAD when it is delivered. I understand that it's very difficult for women who were hoping to be mothers, but I honestly don't think it has anything to do with abortion. The baby never had a life, but it was born by being pushed out of that birth canal just like a live birth. I really don't see the issue here.

CAM:

I got your back!

*blows kiss*

"It just angers me when people dont use the corecct terms for people/things."

That's why they do it midnight. They intend to insult you.... of course it's supposedly not an insult coming from people who are saving lil' babies.

*catches kiss

Thanks midnite

If I'm correct, they actually have to do something violent to the baby in order for it to die, it doesn't just die on it's own correct?

Hmm, Considering abortion is not murder, no I dont call it that, and neither does half of America. I will call a fetus a human when it is born

Does that answer my question?

luvmy5kids:

I have 5 children too. They are the joy of my life.

My 29 year old son is home from the Middle East and I have been enjoying him immensely. He's an Air Force pilot. My dear friend's son was killed yesterday in a helicopter crash and that was a wake up call. I savor every moment I have with my son. None of knows how much time we have and I want to squeeze every drop of life I can out of each day.

How old are your kids? My youngest is 11 and I too don't want him to grow up, although I know he will be a superb adult human being.

Thanks for posting on this site. You are a fighter and I respect that. Stick around, we need you.

Midnite- A fetus is most certainly a human. You may not think it is a "person" in the legal sense, but it is a memeber of our species.

Erin- A fetus is alive and thus has life. A stillborn infant was once alive, but died before or during birth.

Fetuses are both alive and human. There is no debate in this area.

I dont see this as an issue of life. Life can be found everywhere. Look around. Of course there is life in the womb. Any scientist will tell you that.

The issue at stake is PERSONHOOD. Pro-choicers would argue that the fetus/baby has no rights to liberty until he/she is born alive.

The pro-lifers assume PERSONHOOD at generally earlier gestational ages from pre-conception to conception to brain waves to first movement.

The Certificate of Birth resulting in Stillbirth does NOT grant personhood. It recognizes the baby was born. Indeed. the baby WAS born. There is no denying it. Alive or dead, a woman pushing a 10 lbs baby out of her vagina is giving birth.

And this IS on the minds of women whose babies are stillborn. My little girl died 15 minutes before she was born on her due date in 1994. She was 8lbs, 22" long, and I love her no less than I love my other children. This most certainly IS on my mind. And no one has the right to speak for me, or tell me what I should or shouldn't want.

I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you jcaccia. God bless you. How devastating.

Thank you, Heather. I appreciate your offer of compassion.

Thanks for speaking up, jcaccia, it adds a very valuable insight to have someone with the personal experience sharing their feelings. I am very sorry for your loss.

Jcaccia, I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how hard it would be to lose a child in the midst of labor.

jcaccia,

Sorry about your loss, and thanks for joining the discussion... I was hoping for this because I have a question.

Did you ask for a birth certificate? Were you given one automatically? What happened? If you don't mind answering.

Thank you everyone. One of my colleagues just forwarded me this site because she noted there was discussion here on our birth certificate issue. I am the woman who started this entire movement, the one cited in the New York Times, and People magazine article.

I asked for a birth certificate for my baby, of course. They responded by telling me (right in the midst of postpartum hormones and recovery just from the physical trauma of totally natural childbirth) that I "didn't have a baby" and that I "had a fetus and the fetus died."

Insulting and outrageous. BTW, the word 'fetus', etymologically is Latin meaning "young offspring," "little child", or "young one." But, of course, the word is insulting now because it's been hijacked by the abortion pundits.

When was the last time any of you were invited to a fetus shower? Or, try this: Ask an obviously pregnant woman when her fetus is due?

It is disrespectful to women.

Yes, I did receive my daughter's birth certificate, seven years after her death, and after fighting a ridiculous battle of wits and reason in the legislature. My little girl received the first one in the country. Frankly, I didn't even apply for it. At that point, it was more about principle- helping other women who would experience it in the future. But the office of DHS in my state saw my battle (they had opposed it), finally understood the importance of it, and surprised me with the certificate in a ruse-meeting after the governor signed the bill.

More importantly, we are now tracking stillbirth in my state, to help better understand the epidemiological factors related to it, to encourage research, and educate women. The numbers are far too high.

And now, more than 60% of the women in my state who experience this request their birth certs for their stillborn babies. We've changed history for these women- these mothers. And for that, my little girl's life was not in vain.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, jcaccia! A fetus shower. Now that would be ridiculous!!! Just having given birth myself, I could not imagine going through what you have. You seem like a very brave and strong woman. Again, God bless you. Please keep coming back!

jcaccia,

I'm so glad that your little girl was finally recognized! I can't imagine being told "you had a fetus, and the fetus died". I think I might have had more than a few choice words!

It's so encouraging that through your efforts they are beginning to not only recognize the births of these children, but also work to prevent stillbirth.

Your daughter's life was definitely not in vain.

jcaccia~

I am terribley sorry for your loss. I couldnt imagine having to go through that and then having to fight a battle over a birth certificate.

Thank you for your sympathy. It's been 13 years. Since her death, I returned to the university, received a Bachelor's of Science degree, a Masters in Social Work, and am ABD PhD. So, her death has not debilitated me. It has empowered me. I'd give it all back to have her here with me. I'd give my own limbs, my own life. But certainly, I've gone on to do things bigger than me, bigger than my grief. For that, I'm thankful.

I will say that until my last dying breath, I will fight for the dignity of these women and babies. I'm in this for the long haul and will see to it that someday, before I die, stillborn babies and their mothers are provided the type of societal compassion and equity due them. It's absurd that these mothers are being thrust right into the middle of a fight having nothing at all to do with them. They've become subject to the political agendas of those who, frankly, lack the capacity to comprehend the unique horror of this tragedy for what it really is.

Pro abortion Midnite : "Am I pro-abortion? No, I honestly dont like them"

why not? midnite at the oasis?

SOMG, grow up. Please stop posting things that I have to delete. I'm asking you nicely.

Jcaccia, thank you so much for your heartfelt post. I am so impressed with what you have accomplished for other grieving mothers! You used a bad situation to turn it into good. God bless you for your determination and confidence in what was right!

Bethany, what are you talking about?

Oh puhleeeassseee.

I had no idea someone would have to fight so hard to get a birth certificate for the stillborn. Probably because the no longer have to thanks to your efforts. It's a worthy fight, and I'm happy to have met the instigator..online as it is. Good work!

Lauren, are you okay? I thought you posted about having some problems with your pregnancy. Is everything okay? I'm praying for you.

Cameron, that was quite polite. I give you credit.

Thanks for the prayers Heather. Basically my HcG levels aren't rising at the appropriate rate, and I'm having some bleeding.

The same thing happened with my son who was born premature, but healthy.

We won't know anything more until next week. My doctor pretty much discharged me to miscarry.

Lauren, Oh no! I'll pray! Keep me posted please.

Lauren ,I am so sorry. I had replied to your post on your blog, thinking you had said that your doctor had given you hope, not given UP hope. :( I am so terribly sorry and I will continue to keep you and the baby in my prayers.

"The same thing happened with my son who was born premature, but healthy.

We won't know anything more until next week. My doctor pretty much discharged me to miscarry."

Lauren, you're in my prayers, don't give up hope. Did you have low HCG levels with your first son?

Lauren, also, did you get an ultrasound?

Thank you everyone for your prayers. They mean so much to me.

My levels with my son were actually fairly high, but they dropped suddenly. We later found out this was because I had lost his twin. It seems the same thing may have happened this time.

I havn't had an ultrasound yet. I have a different doctor this time, who I guess hasn't seen a point in doing an ultrasound.

I go back for more blood work next week. I'm actually a bit relieved I don't have to do the daily draws anymore. I think it's better for me to have this rest to pray and not to worry daily about numbers.

We don't know God's plan, but we are praying for healing. Against all odds our son survived, and we have hope for this child as well.

I remember the hardest part was the waiting. :( The waiting and not knowing what to believe. It is so terribly difficult not knowing for sure one way or the other. I hope that you will find out for sure soon...

Well, I have two dead babies, one a stillbirth, and one, her identical twin sister, died several days later. One has a birth certificate on file somewhere in the state, the other has a fetal death certificate.

The thing that bothers me about this so much is that after their deaths, I needed so much. A birth certificate for our stillborn daughter was really far down on the list. Having access to a birth certificate for our other daughter did not make her death one bit easier to bear. Sorry.

What I really needed was much better follow up medical and psychiatric care. Maybe if I'd gotten it, I'd have had the strength to care about a birth certificate.

One the other hand, I believe moms of stillborns should have access to whatever makes them feel better. If a state issued birth resulting in stillbirth certificate (I believe the documents actually have stillbirth on them, so could not be used for illegal immigration) makes a mom feel better, I don't get the opposition. I just don't want to be handed a document like that and having anyone expect it to make ME feel better. For me, the tragedy is that she's not here with me, not whether or not the state thinks she's a person.

or whether or not the state thinks I gave birth (I had a c-section)to one twin, while somehow not giving birth to the other.....or whatever.

Our born alive daughter died from a completely preventable cause. Having a birth certificate didn't make the state care any more about what happened to her and how to prevent it from happening again. The coroner just listed her as having died from causes of prematurity, and didn't want to hear it. The birth certificate didn't help.

I am sorry for your losses, Sarah. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been for you.

Sarah, I am also very sorry for your losses. I could not imagine.