"My stance on abortion is like many pro-choice people.... I myself would never have one, but that is my choice... I don't feel like I should be able to make that decision for anybody else..."

My stance on religion is that of most atheistic/agnostic people... I don't participate, but that is my choice... I don't think I should be able to make that decision for anyone else.

Many people would simply find an abortion too stressful. There are many people every year who turn down life-saving treatments and surgeries because they find the procedure intimidating and would rather have a peaceful death- but no one complains when other people try to have those same life-saving treatments. Medical procedures are not for everyone. I wouldn't ever get breast implants, I think it's kind of creepy. Does that mean that I find something morally wrong with them? Of course not!

While I see where you are coming from Jill, I disagree... what am I suppose to say? If I got pregnant, I would consider an abortion. Am I suppose to make one side or the other happy and just choose a side...

But you do bring up a good point...

Erin, oh please.

JM, why would you never consider abortion?

"You are also condoning the corrupt pro-choice movement... the rape cover-ups, pedophillia, the deaths women suffer at the hands of abortion doctors, the RU 486 deaths that go unrecognized, the roach infested clinics that go unregulated and often include operating with unlicensed practitioners, [the] dirty, filty unsterile equipment, not to mention coersion and lying by "counselers" to get women to abort, the killing of babies who have the audacity to survive abortion... the emotional suffering of women after abortion who get no help from the clinics... the infertility women suffer because of abortion... [and] the pre-mature babies born because they cannot be brought to full-term due weakened cervix muscles."

I guess if you are a Christian, you are condoning the whole corrupt Christian movement. The widespread Catholic & Mormon pedophilia, the death suffered by people in Jim Jones' compound, Waco, and Andrea Yates' bathtub, the terrorism of the Army of God, Christian Identity Movement, and the Klan, the ignorance, filth, disease,poverty, and infant/maternal death rate promoted by anti-contraceptive policies in third-world countries, the lies told by people like the Bakers, Swaggart and Haggard - not to mention the high rate of gay suicide due to the blind, ignorant cruely and intolerance of Christians. (Sarcasm intended)

JM, I think that the way to be consistent would be to say, as some people on this blog have actually said, that abortion is indeed the killing of a human being, but that it's acceptable for a woman to make the choice to kill her child if it inconveniences her, because "full bodily autonomy supercedes human life".

At least, if all pro-choicers would state this, rather than say they hate it but they wouldn't force someone not to (which is contradictory), they would be being consistent, however heartless it is....

Laura,

why can't you discuss abortion instead of changing the subject?

Jill- Because the choice is not right for me... Because I have a family that I know would help support both my child and myself, if needed.

Way to dismiss an arguement. If it's so lame, then explain why.

Laura,

You give a reason for not participating in religion. You are atheist. So naturally you would not participate in religion but you support the rights of others to decide for themselves. It makes sense. While you are able to give a reason for not being involved in religion, you still haven't said why you would not have an abortion.

Erin, there are very few people who claim to "hate" mole removals and would *never* think about having their own moles removed, but wouldn't tell other people what to do with their bodies.

Laura -

"I guess if you are a Christian, you are condoning the whole corrupt Christian movement. The widespread Catholic & Mormon pedophilia, the death suffered by people in Jim Jones' compound, Waco, and Andrea Yates' bathtub, the terrorism of the Army of God, Christian Identity Movement, and the Klan, the ignorance, filth, disease,poverty, and infant/maternal death rate promoted by anti-contraceptive policies in third-world countries, the lies told by people like the Bakers, Swaggart and Haggard - not to mention the high rate of gay suicide due to the blind, ignorant cruely and intolerance of Christians."

The difference here is that the Christians openly say that these are wrong. (I'm not sure how ignorance, filth, disease, poverty and death are caused by anti-contraceptive policies, but then you did say 'widespread' Catholic pediphilia when the John Jay college of crimminal justice report just came out and said that the pediphilia is declining among the Catholic Clergy. That approxamately only 4% of Catholic Clergy were involved and 71% of cases accured between 1960 and 1984. And only 2% in 2006. And 71% of the accused are either dead, no longer in the minitsry or can't be found. How this is widespread is beyond me.)

But the pro-choice movement try to ignore all the problems that Sandy brought up.

Laura, I have to give you credit for saying that you would never have an abortion. I see this with a lot with celebrities. Lots of the pro choice celebs. are very quick to say "I'm pro choice, but I would NEVER have an abortion." Why add that? If you're fighting for something you're so dog gone proud of. Don't say so either way.

It leeds me to believe that they don't believe in their cause.

I think this can go both ways, as many proclaimed prolifers seek abortions also, and many supposedly became prolife after having abortions. Message: It's OK when and if I need one, but I think it's otherwise morally repugnant.

Oodles of examples: When the anti-choice choose.

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

The celebs are saying that they are "above it" but if you wan't to kill your kid, go ahead.

Cam,

they weren't truly pro-life to begin with.

Nope, they weren't.

I think this can go both ways, as many proclaimed prolifers seek abortions also, and many supposedly became prolife after having abortions. Message: It's OK when and if I need one, but I think it's otherwise morally repugnant.

Actions speak louder than words. The moment one decide to have an abortion, they show what their true beliefs are. Their true character emerges when things get tough. Anyone who calls themself pro-life and allows themself to obtain one is a liar and a hypocrite. Sadly, there are many hypocrites in this world, and sometimes it takes trials to find the true essence of a person.

And we also have many women come to the pro life side. Especially those who claimed that they were ridiculed by the Choice crowd after their abortions.

Go to Safe Haven Ministries. You'll see what I mean. Some women have said that when they expressed pain or regret after their abortions, the Choice crowd told them that they were being "ridiculous."

Would anyone tell a woman grief stricken over a miscarriage or a still birth that they were being "silly" or "ridiculous?" I would certainly hope not!

Of course not. Telling a woman that is just as ridiculous as telling a woman she's cold-hearted for feeling no grief after a miscarriage or abortion.

Surely no one would do such a thing, though.

"they weren't truly pro-life to begin with."

I guess by that rationale, those who wouldn't have an abortion aren't "truly" prochoice. I just love the way you all are so capable of self-identifying for others. Let me try... You're not truly a follower of Jesus.

Telling a woman that is just as ridiculous as telling a woman she's cold-hearted for feeling no grief after a miscarriage or abortion.

Why would it be ridiculous, Heather? In your opinion.

And allow me to add that I have heard numerous stories like this.

I guess by that rationale, those who wouldn't have an abortion aren't "truly" prochoice. I just love the way you all are so capable of self-identifying for others. Let me try... You're not truly a follower of Jesus.

Well, that might work if you could tell me "why" you believe I'm not a follower of Jesus.

Cameron, when you tried to prove your point, it didn't work.

Cameron -

Please tell me you weren't serious about that webpage were you? Let's see...

The person who compiled the information, Joyce Arthur, has this on her website:

"I'm involved in social activism for abortion rights, feminism, evolution education, and wildlife preservation.

I've written numerous articles and essays supporting abortion rights and critiquing creationism and religion. Most are on this site. (I also have a blog.)

As a professional technical writer, I've written over 100 manuals. I also edit and publish Pro-Choice Press, Canada's only national pro-choice publication. "

You can see her picture here: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/

And her blog is here:
http://choice-joyce.blogspot.com

She says she is a theological athiests. Says that the bible is pro-choice and she has an article titled "let no fetus defeat us". I think she may be a bit biased, don't you?

There is absolutley no information on her "stories". I could make up better ones. And I've always questioned how any abortion providers knows what religion anyone is when it is against the law for medical professionals, that are not connected to a religious medical institute, to ask what religion someone is.

And how about the "physician" who said that anti-choice people are "just naive and ignorant" and "They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women." but then all of a sudden, they see the truth and "That it should only be their own choice."

I know... This was a joke, right?

Bethany,

Perhaps because people react to different situations in different ways? I don't know.

Some people feel grief following an abortion, others don't. It doesn't make the former "silly" or "ridiculous" and it doesn't make the latter a monster.

That's all. If my reasoning isn't all that well thought out, you'll have to excuse me until I can get home and think clearly. It's difficult to do when you're in a public place and there are screaming toddlers running rampant.

Hey Cameron, can I tell someone from PETA that they're not really pro-animal if they are found to be killing animals?
Or would that be slander?

Cameron, why do you proceed to self identify for others? Especially for MY gender. If you don't have a uterus, please stay out of it.

Bethany,

I've actually heard rumours that it's actually members of PETA killing the animals in those videos of theirs.

Dunno if it's true or not, though.

Valerie, I saw that. :P

Yeah that's one reason I used Peta as an example. hehe

I think PETA's got a good idea, but the way they go about things is a little extreme.

Heather and all...

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

If ya wanna know about PETA...

I don't like their methods of "converting" people. From what I've seen, they simply play on emotions, and the stuff seems to be aimed at younger teenagers (c'mon, who else are they targeting? They send you free stickers with cute little cartoon chickens on them!).

You can tell PETA people whatever you want Bethany. But I think a more appropriate anology to prochoicers who wouldn't do it themselves, is if a PETA person worked at the grocery and allowed people to come through the register he/she is running with meat. Should they be allowed to be like a pharmacist unwilling to dispense Plan B?

Heather, I don't hear you complaining about men having an opinion about what you do with your uterus when HisMan is in here.

Valerie, why are they doing this?

Cuz Cameron is a cowardly man. The type who loves abortion!!

Erin, Who likes abortion? Answer: Irresponsible women, cowardly men, pedophiles, and perpetrators!

Perpetrators? Perpetrators of what?

Heather4life -

Are you talking about PETA? I can only guess. One side of PETA wants no animal in "slavery" meaning they don't think humans should have pets. They think it is better for the animal to be put to sleep instead of be a "slave" to human's.

PETA has alot of "sides" to them. One group says one thing and the other says another. I'm not sure how they keep all their stuff straight.

Better an animal be "enslaved" that out on the streets, I think.

Silly PETA people.

I am a member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Do you have any idea how many women I know who were "brow beaten" into an abortion by their boyfriends? A LOT! Most of the time the guys told them to abort, or they would leave them. The women went to the abortion clinic to "keep" the "winner" and the guys said "See ya babe!"

I actually don't eat that much meat to begin with. I could never be vegan, as I love dairy products soooo much, but I don't think the transition to vegetarian would be too difficult for me.

Too bad fresh produce is so expensive :(

Erin, perpetrators of sex crimes. Valerie, yes I did mean PETA. I have to go back to your link.

I really doubt anyone woman in her right mind would tell a pious nut job she had an abortion... even if her looser boyfriend made her do it.

I read the "let no fetus defeat us" article. Aside from making groundless arguments about our motives, she made some pretty "interesting" statements about the value of life.

"A. Fetuses are not that important.
B. Fetuses are none of our business.

If that shocks and offends you, it's probably because you subscribe to one or more irrational and insupportable beliefs, which I'll get to in a moment.

First, let me emphasize that the crucial exception to both of these reasons is the pregnant woman. She has full authority and rights to consider her own personal fetus to be the most important and valuable thing in the world. Or not. She can judge it however she likes, and then decide whether it should live or die. It's her call and hers alone. Of course, if she's happily pregnant and wants to share her joy, it's incumbent on her friends and family to celebrate her fetus, too. But that's about it. If you think that a particular fetus deserves to be born regardless of the pregnant woman's view, then your opinion is based on irrational and insupportable reasons."

So our value as humans is based on how another views us? Do any of the pro-choicers on this board really believe this?

You didn't even address my point, Heather. Apparently, it's OK for a guy to have an opinion on your uterus as long as it agrees with YOUR opinion. Therefore, it's OK for HisMan to tell me what I can do with my uterus, and not OK for Cameron to.

Cameron, I can't even believe that I continue to respond to a pious nut job like you.

"So our value as humans is based on how another views us? Do any of the pro-choicers on this board really believe this?"

That must be why it's OK to kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics.

Erin, does Cameron even sound remotely mentally stable to you? He's an internet troll! I wouldn't even let him/it shine my shoes let alone tell me what to do with my reproductive system.

Cameron, quit beating that dead horse!! Abortionists are murderers!

Heather,

You do realize that we could say the same about His Man, correct?

So...I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Personally, I find Cameron to be amusing more often than not.

Actually, Cameron is fairly good at expressing views of the pro-choice side and at pointing out the inaccuracies of pro-life arguments. He might be harsh about it, but I essentially agree with him. And it doesn't change the fact that your arguement was that he can't talk about it considering that he doesn't have a uterus, in which case, you should be forced to null and void any of HisMan's arguements as well. And considering that HisMan believes that we should nuke the Middle East and destroy Islam, I would say that he is a lot more mentally unstable than Cameron.

"Abortionists are murderers!"

So are those who bomb the clinics.

Erin, I know you didn't address the question to me, but I wanted to answer anyways.

The difference in the scenerios could be explained with this example;

1)
Say a man and a women were walking by a store on the way to the park. They have no money, and are in a fairly desperate situation. The woman suddenly tells the man that she intends to rob the store. The man tells the woman that doing so would be wrong.

2)
Say a man and a women were walking by a store on the way to the park. They have no money, and are in a fairly desperate situation. The man tells the woman that he will leave her and kick her out of their house if she does not rob the store.

Do you see why these situations are quite different?

Heather B. We agree with you that bombers are murders.

Another aspect of this "pro-choice" movement, which I will never understand, is how so many people can support something that was designed as a huge money-making opportunity at the expense of women. What do "pro-choice" followers have to say in regards to the writings and testimonies of Bernard Nathanson who fully admits that this whole movement was designed over a table by himself and a handful of people who laughed when they created the phrase "pro-choice".
He admits they lied about the illegal abortion death statistics and completely made up the fact that the majority of Americans supported this "choice".

They then laughed again all the way to the bank knowing they were making oodles of money from desparate women. You are following a movement that was created under false pretenses.

Also, why do you "pro-choicers" live in the past?? You still act like it is 1970. The year is now 2007. Let's reveiw.

2007
Many different options of birth control are now readily available to all women. The government will even pay for it. They hand it out like candy at high schools across the country. Women just have to be responsible and use it consistenly and correctly.

2007
Condoms can easily be purchased at any local gas station around the corner. Men just have to be responsible and use them consistently and correctly.

2007
A pregnant woman can get free pre-natal care and literally walk into a hospital in labor and deliver their baby all while getting good medical care without owing a dime.

2007
There are pregnancy crisis centers across the country who are happy to assist in many ways to help women.

2007
There are day care centers in schools and classes to help young mothers achieve their goals.

2007
The stigma of an unwed pregnant mother has all but disappeared. We all see examples of this everyday in the media.

2007
There are thousands of couples who are waiting to adopt babies. There are not enough available babies in the US so they pay thousands of dollars to go abroad for adoption.

2007
Women today have more educational opportunities and financial opportunities than women of our prior generations, thus making it easer to support themselves and a child. Women aren't as reliant on men for their financial stability.

2007
This stigma is gone for women to have to "marry" their partner in order to raise a child together.

2007
Most important. Medical technology allows us to see and hear the heartbeats and movements of developing babies in the womb. These images completely disprove the notion that this is "just a blob of tissue" as has been sold for the last 30 some years.

Heather B. We agree with you that bombers are murderers.

Good to know, Lauren. Her statement, though, just seemed to read as if such killings are justified. That's all.

Thanks Heather... of course, having found in my favor, you do realize that means they now think you are me!

;-D

So if someone has a hysterectomy... does that mean they can't have an opinion regarding abortion?

Cameron is amusing alright. That's what trolls are for. Cameron, it isn't okay to kill abortionists or bomb clinics. How many people have committed these crimes and still walk the streets? Paul Hill was executed for killing an abortionist. Shelly Shannon is in prison for shooting George Tiller. Get your facts straight troll.

My belief is that men do not have an inherant right to abortion opinions. They will not raise something in their womb for 9 months, ever. Therefore, whatever a woman's choice is, it is their choice. If they are in a good relationship, with good communication, then they can discuss it. Ultimately though, the woman decides. The End.

Well.. I think Shelly Shannon probably has a uterus so she's entitled to do so by your standards.

"Thanks Heather... of course, having found in my favor, you do realize that means they now think you are me!"

I can think of worse people to "be".

Bull hockey the social stigma about unwed single mothers had all but disappeared. I get that stuff from most pro-lifers on this site EVERY DAY. Have you met HisMan? Yeah...

Cameron, give me one good reason why you stand for Choice. You are standing up for my gender. Tell me.

Heather, I highly doubt that he'll be able to give a satisfactory reason by your standards.

I have an idea- Cameron is pro-Choice because he doesn't believe any woman should be forced to gestate a fetus for 9 months against her will. Seems pretty noble to me.

Erin,

Or maybe it's just a ploy :P. You know, pretend to be all sensitive so you can get into a girl's pants.

And I am, of course, kidding.

Two guesses as to which one the pro-lifers on here are most likely to believe. You'll only need one, though.

I'll be happy to answer any questions just as soon as you'd humor the question you've been asked. How do you feel about HisMan having an opinion here yet no uterus?

"That must be why it's OK to kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics."

Cameron,
No pro-life group has advocated or supported murder.
According to Human Life Dynamics:
We have all heard about the seven murders committed by self-identified anti-abortionists during the time period 1994-1998. But to put this into perspective, according to the United States government, more janitors, bartenders, secretaries, hairdressers and cosmetologists have been killed on the job than abortionists.

Human Life International has documented more than 7000 acts of violence and illegal activities by pro-abortionists. These crimes include:

880 homicides and other killings
86 attempted murders
23 arsons and bombings
787 assaults
1,798 sex crimes
(including 169 rapes)
59 kidnappings
420 cases of vandalism
270 drug-related crimes
1,577 medical crimes

Also, 520 murders and 360 fatal botched abortions by pro abortionists, including;

145 pregnant women
360 abortion clients
71 other women
110 born children
164 wanted preborn children, and
30 men (including two pro-life activists,
two abortionists, and a sheriff’s deputy)
Deadly pro-abortion violence has been reported at least since 1965 and is escalating rapidly, with an incredible 269 homicides and other killings committed in just the last six years (since 2000). 2005 was the bloodiest year, with pro-abortionists murdering 77 people, including 28 pregnant women (and their 28 wanted preborn babies), two baby boys, one little boy and five little girls, four men and two women, and seven other wanted preborn babies. The pro-abortionists almost matched this bloody slaughter in 2002, with 58 deaths, and in 2003, with 53 deaths. In fact, pro-abortionists have averaged more murders per year since 1967 (that’s 39 years in a row) than so-called “pro-lifers” have in the history of the entire conflict over abortion!
What is your response to this???

As someone going through a threatened miscarriage I'm probably not at my most stable but...

I am so sick of the "forced to gestate" crap. Take it from someone who knows, there is no way on this world that you can keep a woman pregnant if her body won't allow it.

Someone could hold a gun to my head and I would still be bleeding. Of course, I don't know of a single pro-lifer who would try anything of the sort.

Also,
Question for any pro-choice vegetarian.
Do you support the right of a cow to abort an unwanted calf???
Just curious.

"Abortionists are murderers!"

So are those who bomb the clinics.

Posted by: Heather B. at May 21, 2007 06:58 PM

For the last time. Here is the difference. We put those who bomb clinics and shoot abortionists in jail. The majority of Pro-life people and organizations do not stand behind these people and do not agree with them. Pro-choice know that abortionist are destroying a human and do nothing about it. They protect abortionists like Tiller the Killer and look the other way when womens lives are in danger at filthy abortion clinics like MMA in New Jersey. And they do nothing when a baby is born alive and then stuffed in a plastic bag and left to die like in Hilah FL.

Get it now!???!

Lauren, if you don't want to hold a baby in your womb for 9 months, no one has the right to make you. I went through a month and a half of pregnancy and I was nauseous from the moment I woke up in the morning to the moment I went to bed at night, I couldn't eat much of anything more than ginger ale and soda crackers, I was constantly exhausted, and cramping like crazy. Would my fetus have lived to gestate fully? Probably. But no one can tell me that I can't get rid of something that is making my body that horribly miserable.

Nice cut n' past Sandy. If you were capable of analysis, as opposed to sherades, you'd probably have realized that those individuals were specifically killed/harmed because of their occupations.

Lauren -

Are you okay????

It's a stupid cow. I eat cows. They are tasty. A cow is not a person.

It appears that pro-life and pro-choice can agree with something.

Eating cows are good.
PETA is bad.

Erin, you are missing my point. There is no way someone can "make" someone gestate. It is a natural biological process. I can no more force someone to continue to gestate than I can make someone's liver function correctly. In fact, there is far less I can do to force gestation than liver function.

With all due respect Lauren, I don't think that has anything to do with this.

"Also,
Question for any pro-choice vegetarian.
Do you support the right of a cow to abort an unwanted calf???
Just curious."

I didn't even know there were vegetarians here....on either side.

Valerie, I'm alright. It just looks like this pregnancy is going to be very similar to my previous one. Thank you for asking.

If a person does not want to keep a fetus viable, they have a right to terminate it. If I am pregnant and throw myself down a flight of stairs, are you going to charge me for murder? If it's an accident, are you going to charge me for involuntary manslaughter? If I don't want to have a baby, you can't make me have a baby. This is why abortion has been around for thousands of years.

Erin,

should aborting a 39 week old fetus be illegal?

jasper- at that point it would be a c-section, not an abortion. If at 5 weeks, they could take a fetus out, and it would live, great. They can't.

But I was wondering what you thought, should aborting (by any means) a 39 week old fetus be illegal?. Should it be a woman's choice?

I agree with current abortion laws. Legal to the point of viability, later if it endangers the woman's health.

which one is it Erin? because you can currently abort pass the age of viability....

I agree with current abortion laws. Legal to the point of viability, later if it endangers the woman's health.

If the unborn child endangers the mothers health after the point of viability, why abort? Why not just deliver by c-section?

22 weeks. That's enough time to decide whether you want to have a child or not. I think you should only be able to abort after that point if the child is proven to have fatal disfigurement/genetic disease or when the mother's life is in danger.

Laura,

People that call themselves Christians but that do not follow Christ are not Christians. To lump the likes of Jim Jones and all those other unrepentant wackos in with Christians is really to blaspheme the name of Christ.

No, Christians are those that love others without regards for being loved back, who give without expectation of receiving, protect the innocent, etc. They are also those who, when they fall, repent and get back up. "A righteous man falls seven times". So who are you to judge any Christian when God Himself forgives them? Could you stand before a Holy God without the blood of Christ covering you....hmmmmmmmm? I know I couldn't. Get off your high horse m'am.

Jim Bakker repented, adopted five children and is living happily in Florida.

Swaggart repented and is still ministering.

Haggard happens to go to the church I attend and is recovering quite nicely. At least he had the courage to admit that he did wrong and is trying to change. That takes a real man to do that.

Are you OK with this one Erin, this is 24 weeks...legal under some states abortion laws...

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/24week/01_24.jpg

22 weeks. That's enough time to decide whether you want to have a child or not.

Why not 21 weeks? Why not 20 weeks, etc? What makes 22 weeks automatically long enough to decide whether she's ready?'
'
By the way, I agree with you on Peta...people for the eating of tasty animals. :D

I take back what I said earlier. It would be a bit difficult for me to make the transition to vegetarian as I absolutely adore bacon. Tasty bacon.

And now I'm hungry. Grrface.

Ok Erin, 24 is too old, how bout a 22 week old?

Is this OK? or just about right? I just trying to understand where your cut-off point is.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/aborted01-22.jpg

Ok, I am back. Let's talk about scuz bag abortionist baby killers now!

Cameron,

It matters because it is an issue of our illusion that we are able to control life. Abortion gives us the power to end life, but there is no pro-life counterpart.

Let me ask a question and I am sorry if it sounds dumb, however, here goes:

What determines viability? The ability of the baby to survive on its own or simply to survive, including with the aid of technology?

Pro choice crowd, Why was abortionist Brian L. Finkle allowed to continue practicing medicine while numerous accusations of rape and molestation were pending against him?

Lauren, oh are you okay? I just saw your post.

"Why was abortionist Brian L. Finkle allowed to continue practicing medicine while numerous accusations of rape and molestation were pending against him?"

Not a clue. I would imagine he had a good lawyer, or none of the charges stuck. I really can't say as I don't know much about law and such.

Besides, I've never heard of the guy.

If according to the odds the baby would survive if delivered by c-section, then great. 22 weeks is the youngest any baby has ever survived outside the womb. That's what I go by. And generally, a woman who's fetus is endangering her life is too fragile for an invasive procedure like a c-section. Otherwise, I would be all for it.

Hey Jasper,

I know God put you on this site because for a while I was the guy battling the pro-deathers on this site along with John.

I haven't given up, however, I have had many challenges over the last few weeks; graduations, business issues, and car, computer, and appliance breakdowns. It's almost laughable, however, God is bringing me through everyone of them and that to a higher level.

I am sure that satan is trying to defeat me with all this stuff, however, I see how God has now given you the mantle of protecting the unborn in this part of the cyberspace universe. When I get beack we will do battle together and more consistently.

I just want to encourage you to continue the battle my friend. You too have a warrior spirit which is the Spirit of the Living God.

Bethany:

Seems to me that this site has been healing for you. You're doing a great job.

Thank-you HisMan, I can only hope that I gain the wisdom that you have.

Peace!

Brian Finkle was an Arizona abortionist. He molested and raped numerous patients over the course of several years. He even got some of the women to have consensual sex with him. When the women finally did come forward, they were not believed right away....or WERE they? NOW and NARAL did nothing to stop him. The pervert openly referred to his clinic as "The Vaginal Vault" He is serving a 15 year sentence, and he brags to his fellow inmates about how enjoyable being an abortionist was. He told the inmates how easy it was to get sexual favors off of desperate women seeking abortions. He stated, "Those tramps will do anything." Google his name. I HOPE you do.

Erin,

So you think this picture below is justified? all in the name of "choice"?

22 weeks:"

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/aborted01-22.jpg

Sorry jasper, I don't believe that picture. A. It is illegal for medical waste to be photographed, B. It's from a clearly biased source.

Most 'abortion' photos are actually those of miscarriages or stillbirths. And to be honest, that picture doesn't really affect me, no. 22 weeks, point of viability, that's what I believe in. That's what science has proven to me is the best compromise.

Contestant #2 C'mon down! It's the one, the only Dr. Edward Allred! Check him out! Racist as a racist can be! His goal is to wipe out blacks,Mexicans and Hispanics. David Duke has nothing on this guy. He referrs to his patients as "tramps" and "dogs" on a regular basis. Google him too.

Cameron,
Are you suggesting that a janitor mopped himself into a corner and died of starvation? A hairdresser scissored herself into a hemmorhage? Please. I think it is safe to say the analogy is murder. But if you don't want acknowledge them.....

Why didn't you respond to the statistics below. Nothing to say? As Valerie pointed out, the pro-life movement does not endorse murder and has spoken against any violence. Anyone involved in a crime against an abortionist has been arrested.

The point here is the pro-choice movement obviously covers up and advocates for violence and murder. You are pro-choice. Your side has done nothing to stand against this violence.
PLease respond!!!! Don't ignore and divert my question. What about these statistics?????

Also, 520 murders and 360 fatal botched abortions by pro abortionists, including;

145 pregnant women
360 abortion clients
71 other women
110 born children
164 wanted preborn children, and
30 men (including two pro-life activists,
two abortionists, and a sheriff’s deputy)
Deadly pro-abortion violence has been reported at least since 1965 and is escalating rapidly, with an incredible 269 homicides and other killings committed in just the last six years (since 2000). 2005 was the bloodiest year, with pro-abortionists murdering 77 people, including 28 pregnant women (and their 28 wanted preborn babies), two baby boys, one little boy and five little girls, four men and two women, and seven other wanted preborn babies. The pro-abortionists almost matched this bloody slaughter in 2002, with 58 deaths, and in 2003, with 53 deaths. In fact, pro-abortionists have averaged more murders per year since 1967 (that’s 39 years in a row) than so-called “pro-lifers” have in the history of the entire conflict over abortion!

"Sorry jasper, I don't believe that picture?"

I'm sorry? what don't you believe about it?

Contestant #3 It's Dr. Steven Pack!! He tried to murder his nurse/girlfriend after she refused to abort his child. I guess he figured he'd pull a two for one. What a nice guy!

It's probably either a stillborn or a late-term miscarriage. Because of medical waste laws, it is nigh impossible to get actual pictures of aborted fetii- and I have seen plenty of fake pictures in my time. The source is not a very unbiased one either- get me a picture of an aborted fetus from a medical textbook. I'll buy that. Wait, you can't. Why? Because it's illegal.

"Sorry jasper, I don't believe that picture. A. It is illegal for medical waste to be photographed"

but wait a minute, you said a 22 week old could be a baby, why are you calling this medical waste?

how bout this one, is this OK as well?

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/Enlargement.cfm?ID=29

Contestant #4 is former abortionist Laurence Reich. He also raped and molested several of his patients. He remained in practice while allegations were pending. Again, where were NOW and NARAL? He asked a woman out to lunch right after he performed an abortion on her. He exclaimed, "I would love to be in you."

You're not listening to me, jasper. They are not aborted fetii. Therefore any emotional appeal you are attempting to squeeze from me is moot. Find an intellectual argument- not something that is based on extreme emotional appeal of photographs that don't even actually back up your argument.

"It's probably either a stillborn or a late-term miscarriage."

Ok Erin, since these are not real abortion photos, maybe you can explain to me what an abortion at 22 weeks looks like?

No- because they are sucked through a translucent tube into a solid container and disposed of as medical waste.

Another former abortionist, Ivan Namihas impregnated 2 of his former abortion patients. He asked one of his abortion patients to allow him to watch her masterbate. He told another "Let me watch you and your husband have sex." "I will tell you if you have done it correctly."

"No- because they are sucked through a translucent tube into a solid container and disposed of as medical waste."

"they are sucked"

who is "they"? what is "they"?

Abortionist Martin Ruddock had his private abortion clinic closed down by state inspectors in Ohio. His staff wasn't even taking vital signs prior to the abortion procedure. Huh, he sure thought a lot of his patients.

The fetii. Jeez, jasper, you're constantly using this backwards reasoning and crooked logic with your loaded questions just so the instant a choicer says something that could be considered inconsistent you can go "HAHA I WIN!" Sorry for not helping.

Cameron:

Cameron I, obviously, because the question is sophomoric: "How do you feel about HisMan having an opinion here yet no uterus?"

Show me some unborn children who weren't fertilized by male sperm and I'll show you a gender that has no stake in the destiny of that child.

Actually, that's not quite true. None of the slaves were Wilberforce's progeny. Such questions are human questions, not gender questions.

But your objection has a pedigree in political thinking generally, Cameron, which is that unless a person actually has experienced something, they have no voice in such matters.

Simply enough refuted. Ever seen a ballot? Ever notice how tea-totallers are entitled to vote regarding tax increases on liquor?

Just one example.

Please holler over the shoulder for Cameron II. Get some intelligence in here.

Abortionists LeRoy Carhart and Warren Hern both say that they "Kill Babies" Why don't you women give these 2 slimes a call if you have a problem with their wording.

Who needs a picture of an aborted baby? Any person with half a brain can imagine how easily the soft and pliable tissues are ripped apart. An eye here, an intestine there, a fingernail separated from a finger over there, a crushed skull and a dangling penis with crushed testacles here. What do pro-deathers think that the results of abortion are; a cup of yogurt? It's murder for God's sake.

Also, no one needs to show me what a murdered person looks like to be abhorred by murder.

However, if showing pro-deathers what the results of their murderous stances are, I am all for showing all the real, 3-D horror that's avaliable.

Doesn't the liberal left wing media do this every night on TV when they show war footage to get the public to change their minds about a just war where our soldiers are trying to free the oppressed from the bondage of a satanic religion?

All's fair in love and war.

I say make the photographing and diplay of any and all abortions legal.

Cameron, Where did you go? What's wrong? Too much truth for the troll?

rasqual, he was specifically responding to something that Heather4life had said about him not being allowed to have an opinion because he lacked a uterus. He was pointing out an inaccuracy in her statement in that men could have an opinion that agreed with hers, but otherwise, could not. She still has not addressed that inaccuracy.

OK, I eat crow now. ;-)

So Cameron I is a he?

Satanic religion? What the blazes are you talking about? I'm pretty sure the Middle East and Iraq especially is Muslim- not Satanist.

Erin,

what you didn't notice on the photo was the pathologist's medical authentication signature. what don't you read the fine print.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/aborted01-24.jpg

jasper, I am not that good with computers, and I could fake a form like that.

rasqual,Cameron is a he.

Erin,

Why such a hard heart? Can you even imagine the pain that these poor little lives had to go through? ... all in the name of choice. Do you any evil in this at all? The taking of a life.

How can one NOT be emotional about this? when the science backs us up completely.

That's a real baby!!! Anyone can tell.

Oh, bull hockey. When pro-lifers run out of actual arguments, they turn to un-authenticated emotional appeals. It's propaganda. Nothing more.

It's the same principle that lifers go nuts on when choicers use the 'back-alley-coat-hanger' arguement. They are both emotional appeals. Heather4life, I seem to recall you claiming that that is 'beating a dead horse'. I'm sure you have seen the picture of Geraldine Santoro. I find these pictures to be in exactly the same light as you view ones like that. Propaganda.

If you can dehumanize a subject, it becomes a choice and murdering it become more palatable.

Even Jesus (God Himself) couldn't make the blind see without faith.

*sigh* And jasper obviously has no retort for that and reverts to the old 'choicers kill teh babieeeezzz' rampage. Great.

The only thing that Roe did for this country was this: We took the back ally butcher, put him in a white lab coat, and we gave him his own office to boot. Abortionists today are the same sleaze bags that they were in the back ally days. They don't care a wit about women. They kill babies, and they only care about money! They hate women! They will say anything to sell you the abortion,and when it's over, they want you to get lost! They just laugh all the way to the bank!

Erin, maybe an actual video of an abortion will help:

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/04/the_harder_trut.html

Heather, I really do think that you're a sweetheart, but you have gotten more and more extreme and inflammatory every time I come in here. I wish you would stick to the good arguments- they sound a lot more respectable then when you are simply going on about how abortion doctors are all evil money grubbing people who hate women. What about abortionists who ARE women(as mine was)? There are evil people in every track and profession(look at the recent scandal with the priests in the Catholic Church). You can't generalize people that way.

jasper- I had an abortion. I am very aware of how they work. Please stop using this emotional propaganda to try and make me feel like I am a bad person. It doesn't work and it makes me assume you have nothing else intellectual to say on the matter.

Erin, I apologize. Thank you for the compliment. I think you're sweet too. Unfortunatly, we do not agree on the abortion issue. As I have said before, I don't hate women who have had abortions. I HATE the act itself. I will be back tomorrow. Any chance you'll come to our side Erin? Think about it. We don't bite! Well, gotta go ...G'nite all!

"jasper- I had an abortion"

I'm sorry sweetheart (sincerly).... you are not a bad person.

But, the act of abortion itself is evil. and should not be legal.

Good-night Heather

Good Night Erin,

I hope you'll come over to our side. You're a thoughtfull intelligent person.

Good night you two, have good ones.

Erin:
"Please stop using this emotional propaganda to try and make me feel like I am a bad person."

Why not? The Christians here all subscribe to the doctrine that every one of us is fundamentally a bad person. Why would you expect Christians to promote a delusion on your part that you're not as fundamentally flawed as we think we are too?

;-)

Erin -

Could you please provide me with anything that states taken photo's of medical waste is against the law or nigh impossible to get pics?

I've been in the medical field since 1995 and I've never heard that. I know many people who would be in jail now. Especially alot of photographers that work the The Enquirer.

I couldn't find anything here:

http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/other/medical/

or here:

http://www.path.org/projects/health_care_waste.php

or here:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs253/en/

Heather: Laura, I have to give you credit for saying that you would never have an abortion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where the HELL did I say that?

Erin,

I must caution you not to slander me any more on this site.

I said we should take a pre-emptive action against Iran's nuclear facilities to prevent them from exercising what they have promised to do, that is, wipe the US and Israel off the face of the map. I have indirect Iranian relatives and have no desire whatsoever to see them incinerated. And by the way, if Aminejad is allowed to proceed with his maniacal plans, Iran will be turned into a parking lot anyway, not by just the US, but by Israel and all the other world powers. So, why not try to stop him by hitting him where it hurts, in the nuclear pocketbook? By the way, you live in the US, do you not? You'd never know it by your responses.

I don't expect any of you pro-deathers to understand the intricacies of evil. However, to be pro-life is to be for the defense of all innocent human beings which includes the defense of those who are already born, which in this case, would include you as well as Cameron. My positions are totally consistent.

If I was inconsistent I would be encouraging Islamofacists to search out and destroy pro-deathers, which, if these Muslim fanatics gain power, I am sure they will do. I have no desire to see any innocent people slaughtered, however, I would even protect a pro-deather against the onslaught of a madman like Aminejad.

In some ways, pro-deathers, act out of principle, however twisted, but I really don't believe they are wanting to murder people. That's why they spend so much time twisting words and convincing themselves that it's a fetus not a baby, messing with when life begins, not facing the truth, etc. They just don't see the light yet.

Again, don't characterize me by things I haven't said. That's called slander and it is actionable.

"We should bomb Iran nuclear facilities now. I think you fail to realize how these nutjobs think over there. Their mindset is patholgical. They believe that the Koran says, that if someone refuses to acknowledge Allah, they should be killed, pay tribute or become your slaves."

Verbatim what you wrote, HisMan. I believe that that could be considered slander of an entire religion. And by bombing nuclear plants you will detonate the chemicals in those plants, thus creating a massive nuclear explosion. I'm not slandering you, not in any form. What I think scares you about this is that you yourself sometimes come out sounding like a "nutjob". Sorry, but you have to take responsibility for how your sweepingly predjudiced statements are going to reflect on your ability to accept anyone different from you.

Valerie- give me a bit to find those sources for you, I'll have them by morning!

Actually, HisMan, printed defamation is called libel, and it would have to be in a widely distributed, durable form. There is court precidence that the internet does not count as durable in this case, and libel on the internet is not actionable. In addition, defamation of character requires "actual malice," which is extremely difficult to prove: it requires either reckless disregard for truth or knowledge of the falsity of the statement.

So no, it isn't actionable.

Less,

You assumed I meant legal action, didn't you?

Within this blog community, slander is actionable, i.e., action can be taken against its future occurrence and penalties meted out against its performance. I can make a request of Jill to take action if any more slander occurs as a result of Erin's printed untruths about what I have said, that she be banned from the website, for example. A person can be banned for using profanity, so why not slander?

Very simply, I will not let lies about me be written and my integrity questioned without a challenge. I suggest that all of us have the courtesy of not twisting what other people say to our own ends, although I know this is difficult for pro-deathers to do.

I will say this, I think what is said on the internet in terms of libel and slander is up for grabs. There no real case law on it yet that I know of and unless you are a licensed attorney and admitted to practice in all 50 states, you should not be giving any legal advice over the internet.

Erin, I will repeat it one more time: Do not slander me or I will take action against you.

Erin,

Thank you for confirming what I truly said.

Like a true left-wing nut case, you added to what I said to your own ends.

By the way, what does someone like yourself think we ought to do with a person that wants to wipe God's chosen people off the face of the earth and in doing so thinks will cause the return of the 12th Imam and thus, the end of the world?

How does one negotiate with such an a--hole?

I am ever profane and I am always civil. There is not suitable reason for me to be banned and you know it. I'm sorry that you regret that WHAT YOU SAID- I already posted it, word for word- was taken at it's face value. But you are grasping at straws here and it would be absurdly low and petty for you to go to Jill for me stating my opinion about your thoughts on a course of action in the Middle East. I know that if you told Jill to get rid of me, she would, because she likes you better than me and you have more sway. But honestly, I didn't think that you were that childish. I thought that people who participated in these debates were eager to open their minds to new concepts- as I do here every day- and respectfully disagree. Most people are. I'm sorry that you aren't.

I am ever profane and I am always civil. There is not suitable reason for me to be banned and you know it. I'm sorry that you regret that WHAT YOU SAID- I already posted it, word for word- was taken at it's face value. But you are grasping at straws here and it would be absurdly low and petty for you to go to Jill for me stating my opinion about your thoughts on a course of action in the Middle East. I know that if you told Jill to get rid of me, she would, because she likes you better than me and you have more sway. But honestly, I didn't think that you were that childish. I thought that people who participated in these debates were eager to open their minds to new concepts- as I do here every day- and respectfully disagree. Most people are. I'm sorry that you aren't.

...you should not be giving any legal advice over the internet. Then as you're not a priest, guess you shouldn't be giving religious advice over the internet?

I'm a journalist. I know my business: libel and slander are BIG issues in journalism. I know what they are, how to avoid them, and what awaits me if I don't. Jill can do whatever she likes on her own blog, but what Erin is doing is not libel in any sense of the word. Get your legal terms right.

I know this is difficult for pro-deathers to do....

So taking what I said my favorite poem to be and making it my rejection of God wasn't twisting my words? Honestly, your dislike of those of different religions is quite plain: I don't see how Erin is twisting your words by pointing that out.

HisMan, a nutcase is a nutcase no matter which side they are on- a right-wing nutcase is no better than a left-wing one. Extremism is bad. I'm sorry that you are fueled by bitterness and an inability to accept those who believe things that are different from you. That kind of thinking- not one crazy dictator- will be the downfall of mankind.

Sorry for the double post, by the by!

Commenter Sandy is either badly misinformed or a liar.

It just needs to be pointed out.

SMOG, Isn't THAT the pot calling te kettle black?

Excuse me, Heather, I know more about abortion than anyone else here (including Jill) and I do not post false or misleading information (unlike Jill.)

Erin, I know that recently you had an abortion, and I understand that the particular procedure you had was a D & C, where indeed, the unborn child in it's young development is able to be sucked through a tube. I don't think anyone is disputing the methods by which first trimester abortions are performed. However, the abortions that are being discussed are the 22 week abortions and the 20 week abortions. These are not performed the same way as a D & C because by this time, the baby's bones have hardened and it would be near impossible to suck them through a tube.
Not to mention even more dangerous for the mother.
I don't know how far along you were, but let's say you were only 6-7 weeks along when it happened. That is when I had my miscarriage. I have posted the pictures before, but do not know if you saw them or not. These is one picture that I took of my baby before burying the baby under a weeping willow tree in our backyard:
http://www.sketchesbybethany.net/babyblessing5.jpg

The bag you see there is a sandwich bag. This is a true picture, straight from the baby's mother. I can assure you that this is completely real, and this is what my baby looked like, without having been sucked through a tube or torn to pieces.

If my baby looked this developed and amazing at 7 weeks, is it so inconceivable that at 14 weeks, the baby looks like this:
http://health.yahoo.com/media/mayoclinic/images/inline/pr6_fetus_week14.jpg

And at 21 weeks looks like this:
http://health.yahoo.com/media/mayoclinic/images/inline/pr6_fetus_week21to25.jpg

Why is this difficult to believe? By the way, the above illustrations are from Yahoo health, not a pro-life site.

I have had three children, and at 17 weeks, I was able to feel their tiny feet wiggling in my tummy. I was able to feel them hiccup and roll around. at 21 weeks, the kicks were much stronger. When they are kicking, what do you suppose they look like? This?
http://www.kollectablekaos.com.au/images/alien%20signature%20series%20classic%20statue.jpg

Anyway, another site, which actually did obtain their pictures directly from an abortion clinic, was abortionno.org. Their pictures are highly disturbing and very real.
The Choice Blues (VERY GRAPHIC!!!) actually lets you watch (in the first video) an actual abortion being performed on a woman...you can see her cervix, watch the blood pour out, along with fetal remains. I could not bear to watch the entire thing. It was too gruesome. However, it is the real thing, it is not the same procedure that you had, apparently, because the unborn child is larger and the bones have calcified by the time this abortion was done.

The second video shows you the aftermath of many first trimester abortions...some perhaps 2nd trimester. Abortionno.org has sued the organizations who are claiming that their pictures are false. They have proof that this is untrue.

I have no problem believing in their truth, because I saw my own baby with my own eyes. My baby was only 6 weeks when he or she passed. At that age, the tongue was already formed, the eyes, the nose was in the process of forming, the ears were there, the hands and feet, fingers and toes were there. I studied and studied and studied my baby for a very long time after the miscarriage. I never wanted to forget what I saw.

P.S. Hisman, you are right. This place has been my healing spot. I was discussing this with my husband just two days ago. I don't know why, but somehow it is the way I am coping with the miscarriage.

Laura, just wanted to let you know I had posted a reply to you in the topic about Brownback, but you may not have noticed it because there are so many posts.

Laura,

In response to your comment about the "corrupt Christian movement". Andrea Yates was a post partum psychotic who was badly managed medically, and as far as her husband is concerned, I always felt he belonged in prison with her. Jim Jones and David Koresh were cult leaders who used religion to manipulate and control followers. As for the deaths at Waco, those were at the hands of our(yours and mine) secular government. The Klan was oridinally formed as the terrorist arm of Southern Democrats who were determined to keep new freed black slaves "in their places", not as a religious organization.

The problems of the world are not caused by lack of contraception. There are cultures totally unifluenced by Christianity in any way and could care less what Christians think of contraception.
There is also a little ethnocentricism on our part. WE know whats best for THEM. Other cultures don't view bearing and rearing children as we do. Several children may need to be born to guarantee that one or two survive. Most of the poverty is due to corrupt governments, backwardness, intertribal and ethnic warfare, civil war, and economic mismanagement by governments. Its never failed that where people's economic status has improved, the birthrate has stabilized.

"Commenter Sandy is either badly misinformed or a liar.

It just needs to be pointed out."

Please point out where I have lied.

I guess the truth is too hard to handle and is easier to pass off as lies and continue to stick your head in the sand about the real issues of what is truly happening.

Not surprised.

Erin,

You didn't answer my question about Aminejad. Also, bombing a nuclear facility will not cause a nuclear explosion. A nuclear explosion requires two isotopes to come together at a very high rate of velocity to reach critical mass in a containment vessel. Highly unlikely in an air assualt on Iranian facilites. Would it be a mess, you bet. A nuclear explosion no, a release of radiation, probably, but limited. Sorry, that's the price evil people pay for plotting the destruction of innocent people, just like Hitler's Germany. We reap what we sow.

Less,

After my post about your God hating poem, you admitted that you were a spiritist or something? Please remind me as I can't remember. All I'm saying is that you confirmed whatever it was that I posted. So how is this the same as the lies told about me by Erin?

HisMan, I have never rejected the idea that there is a God. I reject the corruption of the earthly church, but not God. You twisted my words and jumped to a completely unfounded conclusion: that is not, however, libel, and there is no possible way to get you ejected from the site because of it.

Ok, Laura. I'll play.

I guess if you are a Christian, you are condoning the whole corrupt Christian movement. The widespread Catholic & Mormon pedophilia,

I can't speak for the Mormons, but in the Catholic Church the problem was not pedophilia (which is the attraction to pre-pubescent children), but ephebophilia, which is the attraction to post pubescent teenagers. In the case of the Catholic Church, 88% of these cases were against teenaged boys, making this a homosexual problem, not a pedophilia problem.

not to mention the high rate of gay suicide due to the blind, ignorant cruely and intolerance of Christians. (Sarcasm intended)

If gay suicide is caused by "intolerant Christians", why is the suicide rate in meccas of homosexuality like San Francisco exactly the same as other parts of the country?

Less,

Peace.