This just keeps getting funnier and funnier. You guys don't actually believe this guy is real, do you?

It's obvious that this is no more than an attempt at a very sick and demented joke, much like something my friend Jim would pull.

Like I said, my dad's an OB/GYN and he's personally pro-life, but not going to condemn his patients for getting an abortion if they believed that was what was best for them.

I said from the get-go this guy didn't fit the profile of an abortionist.

This new video seals it: We're watching satire. "Very sick and demented"? Yes, I agree. Satire mirrors reality.

He isnt trying very hard anyway - notice the fake blood on the side of his mask that would have been covering his mouth. Does he have TB or something?

Haha I knew he couldn't be a real abortionist. He smiles too much.

Does he have TB or something?
lol

Haha I knew he couldn't be a real abortionist. He smiles too much.

What, abortion doctors sit in the corners of their ORs dwiddling their thumbs and thinking "Ohh, yes ... I am evil--EVIL!"

It's got nothing to do with his smile.

The reason it's obvious that this guy isn't a real abortion doctor has a lot more to do with the fact that whoever this nut really is didn't do his research. It's basic knowlesge that if parts of the fetus are left inside the woman she could contract a serious infection. If I know that, a specialist with an MD would know. He's just a joke.

What, abortion doctors sit in the corners of their ORs dwiddling their thumbs and thinking "Ohh, yes ... I am evil--EVIL!"

No, of course not. They just have become dead inside and have lost their ability to relate to others. I would love it if you could find me one video of an abortionist who seems as happy as this guy. In fact, I challenge you to find one.

The reason it's obvious that this guy isn't a real abortion doctor has a lot more to do with the fact that whoever this nut really is didn't do his research. It's basic knowlesge that if parts of the fetus are left inside the woman she could contract a serious infection. If I know that, a specialist with an MD would know. He's just a joke.

The video is intended to be a joke, so I don't really know what your point is here.

They just have become dead inside and have lost their ability to relate to others.

Haha. That is what's ridiculous.

Just show me one video...one abortionist.

Alright. Internet searches are something that I am really bad at (computers hate me), but if nothing else I will find an abortion doctor and talk to him or her myself. If you are right, accept my apologies.

Okay, fair enough. :)

Okay here's one. True, he isn't smiley, but he certainly isn't dead on the inside. He's just a person.

Don't worry. I'll get you your smiling abortion doctor.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=N9ylJw7SHdc

Hey you know what would be cool. Leah, why don't you go to your nearest abortion clinic and see if any of the abortion doctors there would be willing to do a real video which is based on this satire.

You could tell him you want to prove that abortionists are truly easy going, open, and willing to answer questions in a very frank and honest way... Think there might be a taker?

Yeah, that abortionist you posted really doesn't look happy. I know you acknowledged that, but you also said he wasn't dead on the inside. How do you know he isn't dead on the inside? What do you think I meant by that phrase when I said it? I'm curious.

Bethany--

That's actually a very good idea. It'll give me something to do this summer when I get home.

I get home from France on July 10, but I won't have much free time until about the 24th. Starting then, I'll go to the nearest clinic I can find and I'll ask to interview a doctor.

A propos to your "dead on the inside" comment ... I suppose I cannot truly know if someone is dead on the inside. But you'd think it would show a bit in his demeanor, don't you? Otherwise you'd never know if our fake smiley abortionist was dead on the inside either.

Am I rambling? I feel like I'm rambling.

Hey Leah,

Where's your pictures?

S M I L E ! !

hmmm, bottom part of my comment didnt make it.

S M I L E ! !

(It's Wed, and the week is alsmot over!!)

Ok, I am off to Chem class. Will probably check in during chem class, guy is boring as crap...

That's actually a very good idea. It'll give me something to do this summer when I get home.

Looking forward to it,....please don't forget! :)

A propos to your "dead on the inside" comment ... I suppose I cannot truly know if someone is dead on the inside. But you'd think it would show a bit in his demeanor, don't you? Otherwise you'd never know if our fake smiley abortionist was dead on the inside either.

Bingo! This is precisely why I do not believe you'll find any abortionists with the same demeanor as the guy above seems to have. In order to be able to kill unborn children, you would have to be able to emotionally distance yourself from what you're doing....I believe that it is impossible for an abortionist to be truly happy or at peace. I believe there are plenty who will defend what they do and tell people it's good, but none of them have a demeanor which confirms that they truly feel this way. Maybe there's one or two out there, but I'd have to see it to beleive it.

Abortionists are all goofy looking. They all look like perverted winos. Well, they all are perverted winos. This guy is a fake.

"In order to be able to kill unborn children, you would have to be able to emotionally distance yourself from what you're doing."

You have to remember, Bethany, that abortion doctors (most of then, anyway) believe in what they are doing. They have no need to emotionally distance themselves.

Mk-- you want to see my France pictures?

Mk-- you want to see my France pictures?

Absolutely!!!!

MK-- have at it. There are over 200.

... been here for 10 months and all ...

http://leahelaine.myphotoalbum.com

Leah, yes! Help me get my pic on someone! I have a My Space account.

Harrison, that lying abortionist scum bag. I saw him in another interview where he said that he had performed numerous abortions on some women. He sees nothing wrong with this. How did they get their lives together? Nonsense!

Leah, you are very beautiful! [Wish I could say it in French]

Aww, Heather! Thank you, that's really nice of you!

"belle"= beautiful in French, by the way.

Aww ... I don't know what to say ...

"Like I said, my dad's an OB/GYN and he's personally pro-life, but not going to condemn his patients for getting an abortion if they believed that was what was best for them."

Com'om Dan, you told us your Dad said your son/daughter was a clump of cells at 6 weeks..which is it?

For the video, it could easily be real. Stone cold-hearted, delivering some babies and killing others.

Jill, did this happen at the hospital that you worked ? Where a doctor would do deliveries and abortions in the same day..?

Heather--I don't understand. Are you trying to get your picture onto your MySpace?

No, onto here.

I *reall* dont like Chemisty, I am sooooo bored.

Heather-

Get imageshack and upload them there. You have to hos the pic somewhere first.

Ohh. Well, go to the page that your picture is on and then copy and paste the URL address into the text of your post. Then it'll turn into a link and people can look at it.

Yeah, but if someone doesnt have MySpace, they wont be able to see her pictures....

Psh. No one should ever ask me about technical stuff . :)

Heather, go to imageshack, (its free) and then upload them. Once you do that, you can copy and pasted the link to here (tooke me forever last night to figure that out too)

Thanks guys. I gotta run. Work time. B back later!

Jasper, yes.

Also, as an aside, and this is gross, while I was working at Christ there was an incident of a baby's head coming off as a doc tried to remove him/her (don't remember sex). The baby had died naturally but had not miscarried. So the doc was trying to remove the baby and pop. Yuck. The head stayed in the mother's body 24 more hours. I just tried to find the article online but can't. The family sued. I think I have it here somewhere if anyone wants me to look for it and scan it.

OMG, that is horrible. How could someone not notice that? I would actually like to read that article.

Midnite, just took a quick look through my files and can't find it, sorry.

"For the video, it could easily be real. Stone cold-hearted, delivering some babies and killing others."

Jasper - Not sure if you've ever seen dried blood before, but its not BRIGHT red like that. And why would he have blood on the INSIDE of his mask? Not to mention the fact that you can't just walk out of an OR covered in blood. Real life isn't quite like ER and Greys Anatomy.

Its 110% FAKE.

haha. I love Grey's Anatomy.

But, yes. You'd have to be completely ignorant to believe that this guy is real after this video. 110%, in my opinion, isn't quite enough.

"Its 110% FAKE."

Ok Amanda, it may be fake. But why is it something to be ashamed of? abortion is legal..after looking at the choice blues video, I do believe that abortionist get blood on them, don't they?

Whether or not abortion doctors get blood on them--like Amanda said--it would not be on the inside of his mask, nor would he be able to walk out of the OR with it still on him.

I never said there was anything to be ashamed of if someone is truly an OBGYN who performs abortions. I'm saying THIS video is a fake, and its ridiculous to think any doctor would laugh about knowingly leaving body parts in a patient.

I think its pretty funny actually that you all have these images in your heads of crusty dirty old men with hearts of stone. All of the OBs at PP were really young, and most of them were women. There are so many doctors in NYC that its difficult for a new OB to open up a private practice - so a lot of them start off in PP or other small clinics. My internship coordinator was actually a really pretty 34 year old woman who left for maternity leave a few months after I started there. And after hanging out with a few of the employees after internship a few times, I can promise you they are certainly not "dead inside" and smile and laugh just as much as the rest of us.

Leah, I don't believe that abortionists do what they do because of what they believe in. I think they do it because it's a good way to make quick bucks. Listen to what Alan Guttmacher had to say about this in the late 50's:

"Doctors do not start out as illegal abortionists. They are ordinarily driven to it as a means of supplementing their income during a time of dire financial crisis. In order to pick up some quick cash, they do a few abortions, then have difficulty in calling a halt to so easy a source of revenue."

I see many reasons for abortionists to not be emotionally well. They are certainly not respected by the medical community. They aren't even really respected by their own supporters.

Diane Derzs, an administrator for an abortion clinic in Birmingham once confided to an atlanta newspaper, "There's still the shame thing, even among people who are pro-choice...we are seen as dirty, even among our own people."
Atlanta Journal Constitution 5/16/93

An abortion support wrote: "We who are pro-abortion-rights leave the doctors in the front lines, with blood on their hands...This is blood that the doctors and clinic workers often see clearly...And we who are pro-choice compound their isolation by declaring that the blood is not there."
Naomi Wolf, "Our Bodies, Our Souls", the New Republic.

According to a survey hosted by Lifedynamics, disguised as a pro-choice survey, abortionists responded and 50 percent of them reported that they had problems retaining staff. 20 percent reported that they have been denied hospital priviliges because they do abortions. 64 percent say that the non-abortion part of their practice has suffered because they do abortions. 69 percent of abortions say they are not respected in the medical community.

Abortionist David Zbaraz told the Washington POst, "It's a nasty, yucky thing and I always come home angry." The article went on to say that, "on those days when he performs an abortion, his wife can tell as soon as he walks in the door."
Washington post, 3/3/80

Sallie Tisdale, a nurse in an abortion clinic, writes, "There are weary, grim moments when I think I cannot bear another basin of bloody remains, utter another kind phrase of reassurance...'how can you stand it?' even the clients ask. They see the machine, the strange instruments, the blood, the final stroke that wipes away the promise of pregnancy. Sometimes I see that too; I watch a woman's swollen abdomen sink to softness in a few stuttering moments and my own belly flip-flops with sorrow."
Sallie Tisdale, "We do abortions here", Harpers Magazine, October 1987

In a New York Times editorial, Dr Susan Conde said, "I observed during my medical training as an Austrailian physician many abortions by experienced practitioners. They experienced, without exception, physical revulsion and moral bewilderment."
New York Times 10/19/24

A nurse in the Midwest remembers how the nurses and physicians all began to have internal problems over the abortions performed at a hospital. In a demonstration of uneasiness with the abortions she was doing, a woman physician "Walked out of the operating room after doing six abortions. She smeared her hand [which was covered with blood] on mine and said, 'Go wash it off. That's the hand that did it.'"
The Philadelphia Inquirer, 8/2/81

One abortionist confessed, "As a physician I'm trained to conserve life, and here I am destroying life....I guess I feel guilty because according to the Hippocratic oath you're not supposed to do abortions, and according to the Maimonides oath, you're not supposed to do abortions. So how could you be trained and raised one way, and suddenly be told it's okay to do it?" He went on to talk about his experience with saline abortions and the fact that the fetus moves around before the injection, thrashes around immediately after it, but then the movement ceases: "You know that there is something alive in there that you're killing."Magda Denes, "In necessity and Sorrow", New York; Basic Books, Inc 1976

During a workshop sponsored by the National Abortion Federation, one nurse described her horror as an abortionist she worked for pulled out a cannula (the suction tube used in a D&C) and a tiny foot was sticking out of it.
Diane Gianelli, "Abortion providers Share Inner Conflicts." American Medical News 7/12/93

Judith Fetrow, a former clinic worker from San Francisco revealed that in her experience, "clinic workers have very mixed emotions about abortion...Clinic workers may say they support a wmoan's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet. They do not want to be faced with the consequences of their actions....There is a great difference between the intellectual support of a woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."

"Meet the Abortion Providers III: The Promoters," audiotape, Pro-life action league Conference, Chicago, IL. 4/3/93

The above quotes were found in the book Lime 5, by Mark Crutcher...I highly recommend this book for anyone who is looking for more information about abortionists.

One doctor put it this way..."No one ever says "Thank you" to an abortionist"
Philadelphia Inquirer, 7/18/93

Why would abortionists ever be happy or at peace? That I cannot imagine.

Does anyone else hate chemistry with a passion like I do??

Amanda: "And after hanging out with a few of the employees after internship a few times, I can promise you they are certainly not "dead inside" and smile and laugh just as much as the rest of us."

Amanda,
you worked at an abortion mill, correct? would you have any problem participating in an abortion? you know, helping the abortionist, making sure all of the body parts are present, etc.

I dont think PP is an abortion mill Jasper. It does other things besides abortions BTW

I think its pretty funny actually that you all have these images in your heads of crusty dirty old men with hearts of stone.

Why would they have to be crusty or dirty in order to have hearts of stone? Scott Peterson was a pretty clean cut looking guy, pretty attractive...but his heart was definitely not soft.

"I dont think PP is an abortion mill Jasper. It does other things besides abortions BTW"

adoft hilter did other things too, besides trying to exterminate the jews.

Jasper, that's right. I heard he loved animals.

"Amanda,
you worked at an abortion mill, correct? would you have any problem participating in an abortion? you know, helping the abortionist, making sure all of the body parts are present, etc. "

First of all, I was an intern - I didn't get paid. Second of all, it was Planned Parenthood, not an "abortion mill". Thirdly, yes, I would have a problem participating in an abortion considering I'm not a doctor or a nurse - Im not qualified. I'm a health educator, I worked out of the health education department - I ran workshops out of the clinic and organized lessons for the school programs and parent education programs and cancer education programs and pre natal care programs and all of the other wonderful programs PP facilitates.

Have you ever been present during an abortion?

What kind of qualifications are required to become an abortionist?

Let me clarify, in a free standing facility, what qualifications are required? Are there any?

Wait, qualifications for what? To be an abortion mill?

Jasper-
Hitler was crazy. And I wouldn't compare abortions to the Holocaust, not the same thing if you think about it.

Bethany -

to perform surgical abortions, one must be an MD and OBGYN. To assist, one must be a registered nurse or certified surgical technologist. To prescribe RU 486, one must be an MD.

My comment about his looks was not based on my beliefs, but the perceptions that many of you shared on the previous post about this person, including from Jill : "Based on this guy's looks ...he does not fit the profile of an abortionist."

And yes, once in a while a patient Id developed a rapport with would ask me to stay with them during the procedure, and the doctor OK'd it.

I think all stero typing should be illegal (like racial profiling), but alas, Just MY opinion. They're dangerous.

"Thirdly, yes, I would have a problem participating in an abortion considering I'm not a doctor or a nurse - Im not qualified."

Amanda, let's say you were qualified, would you participate in an abortion?

thanks...

"And I wouldn't compare abortions to the Holocaust"

why not?

As a learning experience if I was going thru med or nursing school? Yes. As a career? No.

Not sure if you were around when I initially came on here and described my experience with that internship, but I wouldn't even consider being a patient educator with PP for a career, despite the fact that I am grateful for my internship as a learning experience.

As I told MK in our conversation about "repeat customers", sometimes it can be overwhelmingly frustrating, and I take things to heart too much to deal with that more than I did - which was once or twice a week for 6 months. It just exauhsted me mentally. Plus I cant afford replacing my tires every time some idiot follows me back to my car.

B/c Hitler was a crazy lunatic nut, that's why. Come on Jasper, think!!

"As I told MK in our conversation about "repeat customers", sometimes it can be overwhelmingly frustrating, and I take things to heart too much to deal with that more than I did - which was once or twice a week for 6 months. It just exauhsted me mentally"

ah, yes, I did remember that. but why did exactly did it exhaust you mentally? ....somtimes people have to come back for 2 or 3rd heart, nee operations, etc.

I'm just trying to understand, why this bothered you....

Jasper, people who have knee and heart operations are not in the same boat as women getting abortions.

"Jasper, people who have knee and heart operations are not in the same boat as women getting abortions"

no? why? their just having a medical procedure..

As I said in that discussion, Im sure doctors get just as frustrated with transplant patients who go right out and smoke or drink again...

but its also different in some ways...theres a specific socioeconomic phenomenon where I would see half a dozen girls every time I was there who honestly believed having sex or having babies was the only thing that legitimized their existance...and thats not an attitude I can fix with condoms or you can fix by preaching about God or the government can fix by banning abortion. Maybe if I had a solution for it,or convinced myself that I did, I could have done this as a career, but I look at them and know there is absolutely nothing I can say or do to mend an entire cultural paradigm.

Jasper -

I've got a HUGE migraine today, and not really in the mood for a word battle with you. (Actually I am in a rather pissy moood, more as the day wears on)...

Amanda,

so the fact that you end up with a dead unborn baby after an abortion did not play into the equation at all for leaving the business?

"Jasper -

I've got a HUGE migraine today, and not really in the mood for a word battle with you. (Actually I am in a rather pissy moood, more as the day wears on)..."

I'm sorry midnite, try taking some Excedrin Migrane, and maybe put your head under an ice-cold faucet, this works for wife.

I have this headache stick that works wonders. It looks just like chapstick so you have to make sure of what you pick up...lol

Its difficult to say... for me, it would never even be an option, because I have all of the advantages that permit me to be a decent parent - Im educated, I've got a great supportive family, Im healthy mentally and physically, with ONE exception I've only had relationships with wonderful and committed men, I support myself financially, I don't do drugs, etc... so sometimes its hard because I wonder...god, of all the people who could have gotten pregnant and would have been happy about it or atleast okay with it, why did it happen to this girl who is a complete mess and has no capacity to be a parent? Ultimately, its about me needing to be supportive of a patient's needs and being 100% non judgemental - and somtimes its difficult to separate what would be good for me vs. what would be good for someone else.

I took four aspirin earlier, and I might try the cold faucet when I get home, but I am work, and my boss already thinks I am a little loony. Just stressed out about the BF and school I guess, but aspirin, red bull (I get caffeine [lack of] headaches sometimes), and nothing is working.

Amanda,

I not refering to you personally.

Is the fact that unborn babies are being killed have anything to do with you leaving the business? or did it play no roll at all?

Right now "Break Stuff" by Limp Bizkit should be my theme song :-S

why are you so angry midnite?

I am not really angry, I am just irritated to hell and back (if I was angry, things would be a lot worse). Just the BF's attitude towards me is starting to really bother me, and school is just school. My parents are on me about hurrying up and graduating, it's just hard to be "perfect" for them all the time (does that make sense to you at all?)

I know Jasper, I was trying to answer that, but Im honestly not sure because it was a lot of things.

Because just as many women who were keeping their babies or had their babies came in to PP - in fact I dealt with them FAR more often than I dealt with patients having abortions. The added stress of all the s*** I took from people took a huge toll though. I dont particularly enjoy being told to die, burn in hell, or have a miscarriage - like I said, I take everything to heart, and Id come home at night with all of the awful stories I'd heard that day - like a 14 year old getting raped regularly over the course of 2 years by her mothers boyfriends son, and neither her mother nor her boyfriend believed her, and came in to the clinic with her, insisting that she was lying and trying to have her admitted to a psych ward. On top of that, getting yelled at by protesters and sometimes even a very hypocritical patient ("I want an abortion, can I have one Saturday? How can you live with yourself working here??"), Id come home and just want to cry. Certainly not something Id elect to deal with for the rest of my life...

I couldnt do it Amanda. I take everything to heart too. My momma says "you wear your heart on your sleeve". It sucks sometimes.

eeeesch Amanda. That sounds aweful. I think I have a lot more respect for those working there now.

eeeesch Amanda. That sounds aweful. I think I have a lot more respect for those working there now.... that takes courage.

Amanda, let me first say that I do think you have a big heart. I have seen posts from you lately that have really made me change the way I thought about you in a good way, except for the abortion part. I think that you have a good heart. I believe that abortion is not the solution to any problem, and I can feel your frustration in your posts, as you speak of these girls that come in over and over, wondering what happened to cause them to get pregnant again. I mean, I understand the feeling you said you had when you want to just tell them after the second or third abortion, 'you know how this happened'!

If you consider this, and you consider the fact that these girls are being given ample education on birth control, at least the moment they leave that clinic, I'm sure they have been given plenty of advice on how to prevent the situation from occuring again, am I right? If this is the case, and they are still coming back again and again for more and more abortions, do you really think that more comprehensive birth cotnrol education is the answer to the problem?

This is what I do not understand about the pro-choice mindset...because I hear so many people saying that if only more people were educated on how to use birth control, there would be fewer abortions.... obviously, this is not working out.

I simply don't understand why people still cling to this ideal. Over half of women seeking abortions have been using birth control.. I just don't see how more education is helping. I do feel that it teaches people to be irresponsible and do whatever they want, knowing that they have a backup plan if anything fails, abortion.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

If this type of education isn't working, but 50 years ago, when birth control was not as widely available to kids, and sex education wasn't what it is today, there were many more virgins, teenaged pregnancies were rare, and I would venture to say, higher self esteem, since I have found studies showing that unwed teenagers who are having sex are more likely to be depressed and lower self esteem than the ones who are abstinent. This is just an observation...

Okay I am rambling...

Its difficult to say... for me, it would never even be an option, because I have all of the advantages that permit me to be a decent parent - Im educated, I've got a great supportive family, Im healthy mentally and physically, with ONE exception I've only had relationships with wonderful and committed men, I support myself financially, I don't do drugs, etc... so sometimes its hard because I wonder...god, of all the people who could have gotten pregnant and would have been happy about it or atleast okay with it, why did it happen to this girl who is a complete mess and has no capacity to be a parent?

I understand where you're coming from, but do you really know that having the child would not be the best thing for them? To teach them responsibility? To help them mature?
I have read studies that show that almost 90 percent of child abuse cases are of wanted children. Children who were desperately wanted.
I know this is a difficult concept because it would seem more logical that someone who didn't want their pregnancy would not want the child, but it appears to be that some parents wanted a child to fill something within them, and perhaps had some kind of unrealistic expectations about motherhood, and when that reality hit, they couldnt handle it.
So what I'm trying to get at is, just because a parent doesn't seem like a fit mother, or doesn't seem to want the pregnancy, or doesn't seem to be able to handle something like this, doesn't necessarily mean that she won't be able to.

In fact, this is the very woman that could use extra support during pregnancy, and counseling, someone needs to tell these girls what to expect during a pregnancy, and to tell them that having a baby truly isn't the end of the world.

The girls need to be told that they are capable of handling things that head their way, instead of being told they are incapable and need to get rid of what seems to be a problem instead of facing it head on. I believe this encourages their lack of self esteem, by telling them they can't handle difficult situations.... This encourages them to continue in their irresponsible lifestyle, never improving themselves, only getting worse and worse. As you have seen with your own eyes, do you see what I am saying?

These girls aren't getting better after abortion, they are getting worse. Why do you think this is? Why isn't abortion solving these problems?

I have personally seen women who didn't want to be pregnant, but decided to keep the baby, and the baby is what ended up teaching them to be responsible, gave them someone to be accountable for, someone to be a better person for, someone to love and to be loved back. I know of NO woman who regrets having a baby...but I know several who regret having an abortion. I think raising a baby is difficult, but living a lifestyle of misery and a constant cycle of sex without love and abortion is even more difficult.

Because just as many women who were keeping their babies or had their babies came in to PP - in fact I dealt with them FAR more often than I dealt with patients having abortions. The added stress of all the s*** I took from people took a huge toll though. I dont particularly enjoy being told to die, burn in hell, or have a miscarriage

I agree that yelling those things out does not get any good accomplished. It's hard for me to imagine pro-lifers doing these things, but I guess it is possible, but I in no way condone that type of behavior. I wish that if there really are people doing this, that they would handle themselves in a more peaceful manner...I think more would be won in this way.

like a 14 year old getting raped regularly over the course of 2 years by her mothers boyfriends son, and neither her mother nor her boyfriend believed her, and came in to the clinic with her, insisting that she was lying and trying to have her admitted to a psych ward.

What ended up happening to the 14 year old girl?

Leah,

Apparently you too have been dipping in the magiccollegeofbeauty water...

Where are all you good looking women coming from?

I realize I made a lot of grammatical mistakes in my post that probably made it difficult to read...sorry about that. I got to rambling.... also, I've been having dizzy spells the last week from some kind of weird virus that's been going on, and it's making me so tired. Please ignore the mistakes...

Leak, MK's right, you're really pretty.

Oops, Leah, not Leak. :D

Excellent post up above Bethany, I think it articulates well why abortion does not help women at all.

Bethany, just for the record, recent studies have shown that depression and premarital sex aren't correlated in the vast majority of cases. Link Here

She found that while the majority of teens did not experience depression as a result of first-time sex, some did -- those being the youngest teens (girls who had sex before age 15 and boys who had sex before 14) and whose relationship was not emotionally close and dissolved after sex. Girls in this group were particularly vulnerable to depression.

Notice it says after "first time sex"...it doesn't say anything about girls who were sexually active for any particular period of time.

True. But it also supports the idea that popping your cherry doesn't automatically depression make. Of all the people I know, only one is a virgin (my fiance, sigh): and only one, out of all those non-virgins I know, was sad about it. She's also the most religious person I know. Correlation? Mayhaps.

Com'om Dan, you told us your Dad said your son/daughter was a clump of cells at 6 weeks..which is it?

I already cleared my mistake earlier about my conversation with my father. Jasper, let it be said right now that I do not appreciate your provocation in the slightest, and it's people like you that make me wonder why I ever became a skinhead in the first place. I wanted to fight for people who were not being fought for. I wanted to make a difference, and I'd hoped that my fighting would eventually lead to peace.

Instead, all I did was enable self-righteous scumbags like you to slam on everyone because you have a vendetta against everyone who doesn't agree with you. I can believe that I've had to watch over a dozen of my friends get put to rest so you could slam me. I can't believe that we've fought so violently and fervently to show the world that we're all equal just so you can call me a baby-killing monster.

I wish upon you all the tears I've shed, so that you can know my suffering.

I wish upon you all the blood I've bled, so that you can know my pain.

I wish upon you all the things I've seen, so that you can be enlightened.

Most importantly, I hope that you fall down so that someone who isn't like you can help you back up, so you can learn tolerance.

We are all human beings, Jasper. We've been given a gift with this world that we live in, and if we can't have tolerance for someone being different, then we're just squandering it.

I'm going to say this one last time. Stop making attacks/sarcastic comments/rude insults. I'm starting to get really irritated, and I refuse to say anything more to you until you apologize. You want to make constructive criticism, go ahead. Attack me, insult me, put me down?

I'll come down on you like a hammer from the heavens.

Good day to you, sir.

Less, I thought you said you wouldn't marry anyone you hadn't made sure you were compatible with sexually?

And i thought you said you would never marry someone who wasn't experienced sexually?

"No, I would never marry a virgin.

Yes, I understand that you are saying that in time you and your fiance will have sex before marriage, so you can "test him out", but I know somewhere else you also mentioned that you wouldn't want someone who hadn't had previous experience and didn't know what they were doing. I'll just have to search and see if I can find it.

Sex is, to me, the most important part of love:

Yet, you claim to be in love with your fiance, who you have supposedly not slept with yet.

I have a tendency to have entirely male circles of friend, and I can honestly say that I love them all.

Okay, so sex is the most important part of love, and you "love" all the men you know? What does that mean?

The ones that I am sexually attracted to end up being the ones I date. I knew it was time to move on from my ex when our desires clashed, and I knew that my fiance and I would be a good match when we slid into sexual activity so easily. "

Yeah, but that was only "kissing and petting"...you know, if I think that's sex, then I must be "doing it wrong", right?

But then again, you also said that you guys do things that are "outside the norm"....and are "inventive".... I don't really see kissing and petting as inventive....

Oh and then you say if you had to describe what you actually do, we'd be "disgusted"...well, if that's true, then it's probably a little more sexual than "kissing or petting", and thus, you are having sex.

Whew.

By the way, Less, if you and your fiance finally do "have sex" (in whatever way you define it), suppose he disappoints you and cannot satisfy you? Do you decide not to marry him?

Also, while I'm at it, I thought I'd ask you about this as well. On the Kevorkian thread, Less, you said [about life support]:

"But, were it not for the machines, I would be dead anyway: why interfere with what nature obviously intended?":

How come you care about what "nature intended" when it comes to life support?

Couldn't one make the same point, using abortion?

For example:
"If it were not for abortions, babies would be alive anyway. Why interfere with what nature obviously intended?"

Yet, you feel this isn't a good point.

Just curious why you feel nature is important in some contexts but not others...

Oooooh Bethany,

She hits with the left...goes in with the right...

knockout!

Skinhead Dan "I'll come down on you like a hammer from the heavens."

Ok Dan, let's deal with the threat first... I suggest you bring some of your friends along with you, I have a feeling your gonna need the help. Better yet, you better bring a gun, no, not a gun, like we say in the military Dan, bring your "weapon", make sure it's not locked, but loaded.

"I wanted to fight for people who were not being fought for. I wanted to make a difference, and I'd hoped that my fighting would eventually lead to peace."

except when it comes to the unborn.

"We are all human beings, Jasper. We've been given a gift with this world that we live in, and if we can't have tolerance for someone being different, then we're just squandering it."

yea, what tolerance do have for the unborn or people who speak up for them!

tolerance goes both ways Dan.

Jill, I won’t marry anyone I’m not sexually compatible with, but there is more to it than that. My previous partner and I were absolutely perfect in that regard, but far too alike in other ways to make for a comfortable relationship. Not only did we look alike, we thought alike, behaved alike, had many of the same reactions in common. Honestly, it was vaguely creepy. There were other problems, so we ended it. We’re still good friends, and I absolutely miss the sexual connection we had, but we make better friends than lovers, unfortunately.

To both of you, we’re not getting married immediately. I enjoy long engagements: they give me time to adjust to the change and develop ways to make it my own, instead of following the (usually) disgustingly patriarchal traditions surrounding marriage and engagement. Unless he’d agree to run off and elope, which would be perfectly fine with me, it’s going to take a long while to plot a wedding. In the remaining time, we intend to move in together: this would entail, among other things, having sex. He won’t be a virgin when we marry.

At the time he proposed, I was okay with marrying a virgin. This changed. I offered to leave, because I knew that waiting was important to him, but his mind had changed on this too, go figure. It took a bit, but now we’re both looking forward to when we can spend some time together.

I have about the same amount of trust and love for my fiancé as I do my best friends, whether male or female. The only real difference between them is the fact that I am sexually attracted to my fiancé, and that we do sexual things: we have not had intercourse of any sort. We kiss and pet, which is not sex (don’t know where you get the idea that it is).

I never said that we do things outside the norm: I said that I enjoy things outside the norm. I have previously done things outside the norm: in this particular relationship, that has not happened, as the comfort level is not quite there.

I’m not quite sure why you’re so interested in proving I’m having sex. I would know if I’m having sex, and believe me, I’m not. If he and I were not mutually satisfied, and I can think of a few reasons why this would be, I would hope that we could work whatever issues would be keeping me from being satisfied out during premarital counseling. The only reason I can think of for lack of satisfaction would be the fact that, unfortunately for him, sex was tied up with religion for a while, which damaged his view of it. I believe that’s over and done with now, but if it crops up again, it could impede our sex life. I would recommend he would talk to a counselor, but if it didn’t help, I would leave the relationship: I wouldn’t want to stay with someone who had such different views of sex than I, as it would be awkward for both of us.

Yes, Bethany, you could say that. Fortunately, I’m okay with that particular hypocrisy of mine, and don’t have any trouble in that contradiction. In most things, I do strive to be natural (eating all organic food, things of that nature), and if abortion is the only thing I believe in that challenges that, I’m alright with that.

"Ok Dan, let's deal with the threat first... I suggest you bring some of your friends along with you, I have a feeling your gonna need the help. Better yet, you better bring a gun, no, not a gun, like we say in the military Dan, bring your "weapon", make sure it's not locked, but loaded.

"I wanted to fight for people who were not being fought for. I wanted to make a difference, and I'd hoped that my fighting would eventually lead to peace."

except when it comes to the unborn.

"We are all human beings, Jasper. We've been given a gift with this world that we live in, and if we can't have tolerance for someone being different, then we're just squandering it."

yea, what tolerance do have for the unborn or people who speak up for them!

tolerance goes both ways Dan."

Jasper,

1. I will not physically attack you. Unfortunately, I've adopted a moral code recently that requires me to try to talk my problems out before resorting to physical violence. I don't have a gun, nor am I cowardly enough to bring friends to a fight against one man. If I were to meet you, it would be mano e mano, and if I lost, then I would graciously accept defeat rather than have my buddies beat the ignorance out of you. When I say come down on you, I mean in a verbal sense. My apologies for the confusion on that one. Still, if you're ever in the Chicago area and you're feeling froggy, get ahold of me and we'll jump.

2. My personal stance on abortion has always been first trimester only. Seeing as how we don't scientifically know when conscious thought developes, I believe that the first trimester is when the brain is least developed, and therefore has the least possible chance of being conscious of human thought. I don't disagree that the human brain developes rapidly in the first trimester and is able to feel things like pain, but I don't think it's grounds for personification, either.

I do have a certain place in my heart set aside for the unborn. My father has had a few stillborns that haunt him to this day, and my mother almost miscarried me and my brother while we were gestating, so I do sympathize in some way with pro-lifers when it comes to people who abort in the second trimester, or even into the third. As for your comment about my tolerance, I have no problem with pro-lifers who present themselves logically and rationally without attacking people. People like you, Heather4Life, and HisMan have all presented yourselves as nothing more than ignorant religious fanatics with radical view on the situation. Speak calmly to me, and I'll show you the same respect. For example, look at how Jill and I first started out. We fought bitterly, then she apologized, and now we speak civilly to one another like HUMAN BEINGS.

Get a grip, friend. Your war cannot be won without compromise. Your military service means nothing if you don't plan on trying to use it for both sides.

I’m not quite sure why you’re so interested in proving I’m having sex. I would know if I’m having sex, and believe me, I’m not. If he and I were not mutually satisfied, and I can think of a few reasons why this would be, I would hope that we could work whatever issues would be keeping me from being satisfied out during premarital counseling. The only reason I can think of for lack of satisfaction would be the fact that, unfortunately for him, sex was tied up with religion for a while, which damaged his view of it. I believe that’s over and done with now, but if it crops up again, it could impede our sex life. I would recommend he would talk to a counselor, but if it didn’t help, I would leave the relationship: I wouldn’t want to stay with someone who had such different views of sex than I, as it would be awkward for both of us.

Why do you automatically assume he would need counseling? Do you think that perhaps you might need counseling if you couldn't find satisfaction with someone you love? Or maybe both of you together? Why do you automatically assume it's his fault?

Yes, Bethany, you could say that. Fortunately, I’m okay with that particular hypocrisy of mine, and don’t have any trouble in that contradiction. In most things, I do strive to be natural (eating all organic food, things of that nature), and if abortion is the only thing I believe in that challenges that, I’m alright with that.

I'm glad you at least admit it's hypocritical.

Bethany, if one can't enjoy sex with one that is supposedly loved due to religious interference, counseling is needed. If religion prevents you from enjoying something so intrinsically natural, there's an issue. I wouldn't mind us both going; everyone can benefit from that sort of thing.

"People like you, Heather4Life, and HisMan have all presented yourselves as nothing more than ignorant religious fanatics with radical view on the situation."

Com'on Dan, be tolerant now....and open minded to other views besides your own.

"Speak calmly to me, and I'll show you the same respect. For example, look at how Jill and I first started out. We fought bitterly, then she apologized, and now we speak civilly to one another like HUMAN BEINGS."

whew, you have a lot of nerve....Don't forget Dan, you coward, you have the blood of child on your hands. You never gave him the right to live and now you're lecturing us. Shame on you.

Read the book, the intolerance of tolerance

Way to go name-calling Jasper, just goes to show you really don't have anything of value to add.

Bethany and Less,

Do you think that perhaps you might need counseling if you couldn't find satisfaction with someone you love?

I find it strange that you claim to love him, claim to know what love is and isn't and then say if his religion "got in the way" you'd dump him.

Bethany is so right. From where I sit Less, it seems like you, not he, needs the counseling. To understand that loves means loving who the peron IS not who you wish the person was. You have already asked him to deny his conscience by moving in with you and having sex. Something that up until now, defined who he was as a person. Then you want him to give up his faith because it interferes with you sex life? What exactly do you mean by you "love him"? I think you mean you love him as long as he does things your way! Not once have I heard that you have or are willing to compromise. But you seem to have no problem asking him to completely change who he is and what he values...

Seems like you're getting the better of this deal!

There's blood on the inside of his surgical mask. That would indicate to me he never wore it. Also, scrub gowns are disposed of after surgery and not worn outside the surgical suite. I really think this is staged.

"Com'on Dan, be tolerant now....and open minded to other views besides your own."

I never said I wasn't tolerant of religion or religious people. It's the extremism that angers me, and the radical lengths you go to just to accomplish your own selfish agenda. Also, your attacks on me aren't very Christian at all. You're nothing but a hypocrite, old man. You really think you gotta pair of stones? Live my life, and then talk to me like you know how cruel the world really is, you scum sucking pig.

"whew, you have a lot of nerve....Don't forget Dan, you coward, you have the blood of child on your hands. You never gave him the right to live and now you're lecturing us. Shame on you.

Read the book, the intolerance of tolerance"

Yeah, I've got blood on my hands. I chose that. I have my blood, the blood of that embryo, the blood of the men I fought, and it's all staining my hands.

But yours are so clean because you wouldn't dare soil them. Nope. You hide behind the facade of cyberspace and talk big, but if you ever had to go through what I've been through, or what Erin's been through, you'd be humming a different tune.

Check and mate, old man. Come talk to me when you have more than just opinions to back up your talk. I don't fear you, nor do I really care if you think you're right. Your ignorance shall serve as your coffin one day, and on that day, I'll laugh.

MK, I really don’t think you’re reading what I’m typing. I don’t particularly care what religion he is. I understand that sometimes you have to separate Christianity from so-called “Christians” who use it as a political platform or as a cover for intolerance, instead of the religion of love that it ought to be. His religion doesn’t “get in the way:” it serves as a wonderful point of discussion for both of us. Sure, I might prefer if he wasn’t Christian, but I understand that’s an important part of who I am. I wouldn’t deny him that. I’ll go to church with him every Sunday and chat with him about the sermon, because it doesn’t bother me, and it means oh so much to him.

I’m talking about if, for some odd reason, his religion interfered with his ability to have a mutually satisfying sex life. As I said, if religion interferes with something so incredibly natural, there’s something wrong: that’s my view. Luckily, this doesn’t seem to be the case, and so I’m not particularly concerned. This would be a completely out-of-the-blue occurrence, and seems quite unlikely to happen.

I didn’t “ask him to deny his conscience.” I presented my side of the issue, recognized that this was a sudden and completely unexpected change of my mind. I understood that this was important to me, and that our completely different views of sex would get in the way, and that I wasn’t willing to wait. So, we took a break. It ended up working out. I compromise: I haven’t had any sex at all while he figured himself out, which is a big deal to me. His compromises are more important to me, because I just don’t particularly think about what I’ve changed in order to have a more effective relationship. It just doesn’t occur to me.

"But yours are so clean because you wouldn't dare soil them. Nope. You hide behind the facade of cyberspace and talk big, but if you ever had to go through what I've been through, or what Erin's been through, you'd be humming a different tune."

How do you know what I've been through Dan?

"Check and mate, old man. Come talk to me when you have more than just opinions to back up your talk. I don't fear you, nor do I really care if you think you're right. Your ignorance shall serve as your coffin one day, and on that day, I'll laugh."

Ok Dan, I'm done fighting with you. I wish you and Erin good-luck. God-bless you both...