...The former employee of a Louisiana abortion clinic relates in saying that the abortionist “had a fetus wrapped inside of blue paper….He was standing in the hall…tossing the fetus up in the air and catching it. Like it was a rubber ball.”

http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2006/06-05-22vacantsouls.htm

Rachel Mcnair, who is the former employee referred to above, also wrote of this same abortionist:

"One Saturday, another employee and I were working, we were closing up and we went down to the back hallway to get the garbage. Well, we smelled this awful smell--it wasn't coming from the garbage. So we opened the door to a storage room. Inside that storage room was a bunch of fetuses, wrapped up in the blue paper in the gloves that had been sitting there for, I would say, at least a week. There were maggots. It stunk like---I couldn't even describe it. We gagged and closed the door. There were at least six or seven of those fetuses just sitting in there, just rotting away."

Also, I read of a story of a Texas abortionist....Several days after he struggled through a particularly difficult abortion, the patient's mother returned to the abortion clinic upset and angry. She brought in a milk carton containing a three-inch fetal head that her daughter had passed after she had massaged the girl's abdomen to alleviate her pain. One employee stated, "I remember the eyes were bugging. That's when I decided to quit." Another employee opened the refrigerator a couple of weeks later and found the milk coarton, still containing the head, with a sign taped to it saying, "Hi do you remember me?" It had been left as a homecoming surprised for an employee who had been away on vacation.

El paso times, 4/5/81

These were found in Lime 5 by Mark Crutcher.

Bethany, I have read about that second one before. Very sick!

Darn,
I'm leaving tomorrow and won't be back for 2 weeks...and these look like posts that are gonna invoke quite the conversations!

Darn, Darn, and double Darn! er...triple.

Everybody talk about the weather til I get back!

And don't anybody drop out! arrrrrggggghhhhh...

To Disney, or not to Disney. That is the question! But I must add, that these are the kind of choices I can wrap my head around...as opposed to say...well, you know!

MK, hi. Try to find a computer where you are and jump on.

Jill has forbidden me. She says she tried it when she was in Disney and the family did not respond well...

Bethany, I wonder if women who abort their children actually know what happens to them after they are killed. Do they care? Even a dead dog gets a proper burial.

At the Albany Clinic here in Chicago, they pick the babies up in a truck and load them with a dolly...out come the babies in box after box...

Sometimes we baptize them...

Wonder if they're resold for parts.

Heather, I think a lot of women don't even realize that their unborn child is more than just a blob.

I think that Planned Parenthood and other abortion organizations do such a good job at deception...they consistently repeat phrases such as "product of conception", and "blob of tissue",...those words have been stated so often that they seem to become true to people, regardless of the proof to the contrary.

Like Hitler said, if you say a lie loud enough, and long enough, people will eventually believe it.

I mean, look at Dan who had until just a few weeks ago believed that they didn't have any form until about the second trimester. Why did he believe this? He confirmed just recently with his gynecologist father that he had been mistaken.

I think women (and men) are being lied to all the time about what their babies are really like in the womb...many have found out too late what they have done, and they have to live an entire lifetime of guilt and shame for what was done without their informed consent.

George Tiller built a crematorium. The resident's of Kansas are complaining about the smell. Makes me think of what Hitler did.

I have also heard of abortionists putting remains down garbage disposals.

MK have a good time at Disney!

MK, have a great time!

So do we know if this is real or not yet?

He's not real Nick!

Isn't Disney on a boycot list???

No way is this guy real. He's ridiculous, not to mention sick, sick, sick!

He said he made a fetus mobile. He said he left body parts inside a uterus when even a dolt would realize that would lead to a possible lethal infection.

Of course he's a fake. He's going to keep making the videos more and more outrageous until everyone realizes he's being facetious.

Yep, I think we all agree he's a fake, but I think he made this for controversy.

Bethany,

I believed that the fetus was nothing more than a clump of tissue because I'm never really studied human gestation or reproduction [well, not scientifically, hahaha! If someone catches that innuendo, I'll be pleased]. I guess that my own ignorance in that knowledge was my fault, but at the same time, I stick firm with my belief of when consciousness truly developes.

I believed that the fetus was nothing more than a clump of tissue because I'm never really studied human gestation or reproduction [well, not scientifically, hahaha! If someone catches that innuendo, I'll be pleased]. I guess that my own ignorance in that knowledge was my fault, but at the same time, I stick firm with my belief of when consciousness truly developes.

Why do you believe consciousness is what makes someone human? What do you think makes a person a person?

Do I turn into a non-person when I go under anesthesia to get a cavity pulled, and become a person again when I regain consciousness? What is it that makes me continue to be the same person, with or without that consciousness, in your opinion?

I think it would be if you have the capacity for cognitive thought. i.e. in surgery you still have the capactiy for cognitive thought, but because of the influence of drugs you are not currently using that capacity.

Okay...so another question comes up that someone else asked...I think it was Lauren who asked and never got a response. I can't remember the exact way she worded it but basically the question was whether one should consider an anacephalic newborn baby a person or not, since they are born without a brain?

Someone born without a brain would be dead, right?

Heather asked:"Bethany, I wonder if women who abort their children actually know what happens to them after they are killed. Do they care? Even a dead dog gets a proper burial."

Bethany responded:"Heather, I think a lot of women don't even realize that their unborn child is more than just a blob.
I think that Planned Parenthood and other abortion organizations do such a good job at deception...they consistently repeat phrases such as "product of conception", and "blob of tissue",...those words have been stated so often that they seem to become true to people, regardless of the proof to the contrary.
Like Hitler said, if you say a lie loud enough, and long enough, people will eventually believe it."

Heather and Bethany, I'm curious as to why you would choose to speculate amongst yourselves about this rather than actually asking some women who have had abortions. You are both fully aware that there are such women on this site. Perhaps it is because you would rather, as Bethany so wonderfully put it, repeat falsehoods loudly back and forth to one another and then believe them rather than seeking out the facts?

Just so you know, as a woman who has had an abortion, I didn't wonder about what happened to the contents of my uterus after my abortion, I don't wonder now, and I don't care. Does that make me callous? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'll let you make your own holier-than-thou judgments about that, since you will anyway. Oh, and I was never once told that the embryo that was removed from my body was a "blob of tissue" or a "product of conception". The counselor, nurses, and doctor all referred to it as an "embryo". Why? Because that's what it was. Or do you also have a problem with medical professionals using proper medical terminology?

Bethany, after you found out that I had had an abortion, you said that you realized why I was so defensive. You were wrong that my having had an abortion is the cause of my defensiveness. The cause of my defensiveness is actions of pro-lifers like the exchange you had with Heather above. It's just that sort of self-righteous presumptiveness that makes me defensive. Rather than actually communicating with women who've had abortions, or with men like Hal who's significant others have had abortions, you assume you know everything about us. You assume, as you did the night you decided you knew why I was defensive, that you know exactly what kind of people we are and what is going through our minds. And I have no doubt that you make further assumptions (which most of you keep to yourselves, although others like HisMan, Jasper and Rasqual do not) about our moral characters and our prospects for the "afterlife". Rather than assuming that you know, perhaps you should try asking and listening. After all, you know what they say about those who assume...

I think JK is correct. Legal death is brain death. No brain to begin with? No life.

Pardon me. No personhood.

Diana: Just so you know, as a woman who has had an abortion, I didn't wonder about what happened to the contents of my uterus after my abortion, I don't wonder now, and I don't care.

why don't you care?

Diana, I have no idea why you think that was directed at you?

I have talked to many post abortive women and yes, many of them told me they thought the baby was just a "blob of tissue".

You are the one assuming here. You assume I haven't talked to women who have aborted. You are wrong. And I also used Dan, an abortive father, as an example of someone who has never been educated about fetal development till recently. That wasn't intended as an insult or a jab, just to state reality.

Some people honestly don't know.

And by the way, I didn't even say ALL women, I said SOME women.

About the anencephaly:

Anacephalic babies have been born sucking their thumbs, wetting their diapers, crying, and other things babies do. Some live longer than the time they are expected to live.

Are the ones who survive hours or days after birth non-persons?

Want to tell that to their mothers and fathers?

By the way, if they didn't give birth to a person, what did they give birth to?

And don't pro-choicers agree that a human being who is born is automatically granted personhood?

And finally, what is your exact definition of personhood?

Here are some stories about anacephalic babies...

Part of a story about Ira, a baby born with anacephaly:
http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/Ira.htm

When I'd get up to feed my baby in the night, I'd find myself thinking about Ira. (His mother decided to name him because it seemed like he ought to have a name.) About five days later, the doctors were amazed that he was still alive, and I found out why they were amazed. His parents found out by chance that the hospital as a matter of policy had not given him anything to eat or drink from the time they'd gotten him. This was a common practice in hospitals in this country during the mid-1970s, and these babies usually died within a few hours. When we heard that they weren't feeding him it came as a shock to us because we had assumed that they were at least feeding him. His mother felt very strongly that she wanted to care for him herself-that he was still her baby.
I called the pediatrician and said that we wanted to bring the baby home. She said that she didn't think it was a good idea, but she signed the papers and we went in and got him. There were nurses in the nursery who were unhappy about not feeding him because they wanted to help him too, but they would have been countering doctor's orders, so they didn't do it. Some of the people at the hospital treated us like we were weird hippies come to claim our weird kid, and other of them were very glad and felt that it was the right thing to do.
When the nurse handed him to me, he was as light as a feather because he hadn't eaten or drunk anything in five days. We felt that it was a miracle that he was still alive, and it was with gratitude and relief and love that we brought him home. He and his parents stayed at our house, and we fed him with an eye dropper because he was too weak to nurse. Both of his parents spent all their time with him as they knew he didn't have too long to live. His mother made him little hats and they sunned him on the porch. He never cried, but now and then, he called us. Both mine and Margaret's babies (both six weeks old) picked up that same call and used it for a few days after Ira had died. He lived for five more days. He was no longer a baby; he was like a wise old teacher. We felt very privileged to have a Holy thing being like that in our house.
It was a teaching to Dr. Williams too. When he talked about these babies he would use the medical term, "anencephalic monster," and we'd say, "No, a baby, not a monster, a baby," and that you should treat them like babies, and I said, "Anyway, back in San Francisco when a lot of us were taking psychedelics, I saw a lot of my friends look weirder than that." He understood.

Pedro Jose:
http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/pedro.htm

Once I was in my room and after a confident waiting with the company of my Mom, and dearest friends, you came to me and I hold you in my arms. I could feel your weak breathing but at the same time your strong desire to live.
You lived for 62 hours. It was three days full of a mix of selflessness, love, and sorrow. I enjoyed you for such limited time but I can say that I had the joy of having you in my arms. Gerardo and I loved you so much, and at the same time your little siblings who came to visit you, and carried you, in the company of your grandparents aunties and uncles.
Although I had a great fear to look at your wound, finally I decided to look at your head uncovered. I felt so sad for seeing you so weak, but you taught me that this was a symbol of your humility. Once more you taught me in a way more important than with words, that our body is not the most important thing in life.
I could see you the way God made you in my womb, as soon as I saw at your wound it did not look awful to me. You were my son, I dressed you up, and I gave myself to you with all my heart.
You died at 6:00am September the 2nd, with the light of the dawn and the singing of the little birds. Your Daddy and I could not see you leave, you were so sweet even in your departure to Heaven. After a night of agony, you left us without seen our flooded eyes. At the end we saw you finally resting in peace. Peace that we could not see in your painful eyes in all the time that God offered us.
We miss you so much my love. Rest in peace my Pedro Jose, so weak ... but at the same time so strong.

McCoy:
http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/mccoy.htm

At 12:26am my charming little McCoy Grant Stokes was born. He weighed 5lbs. 3oz. and was 16 1/2inches long. He had tons of dark brown just like his daddy.
He was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen!
I was so happy he made it through the birth! We spent so much precious time together. I just didn't want to let anybody else hold him. Right after he was born he got a blessing by his Doctor and great-grandpa.
McCoy did really well in the hospital so 2 days later, on April 30th we got to take him home with us. 2 days later, on May 2nd at around 6:30am he passed away back to heaven. He passed sleeping right on top of his Mommy's tummy where he was most comfortable. He was such an angel!
We had his funeral services on Saturday May 5th 2007. We miss him so much. Not a day goes by that we don't think of him. Mommy and Daddy love and miss you McCoy!!!
On October 10, 2005 Malachi Samuel was born at 12:05 p.m. weighing in at 4 lbs. 15.7 ozs. and 16 in. long. He was alive, his cry was the sweetest sound my husband and I could ever hope to hear. He had red hair, blue eyes, and big feet and was beautiful!
Tiffiny and Malachi SamuelWe took advantage of every moment with video and pictures. The doctors told us that our son could hear, see, swallow and feel. Malachi had almost everything except the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Our son was with us at all times and was loved, kissed, and held by many.
Exactly 57 hours after his long awaited birth our son left us, all the while in his mother’s arms. Our angel would now watch over us in heaven and he was complete and he blessed us greatly. Our time with him was precious and there is no way we could have made it without that time.

Jasper,

I couldn't be more shocked that it was you to ask that question, but I thank you for understanding what I was trying to get across in my post (or, at least, that is how I see your willingness to ask). There are two connected reasons that I don't care what happened to the embryo. 1) I was not in anyway attached to it. To speak honestly, for the 5 days between confirmation that I was pregnant and my abortion, I felt as if a cancer was growing inside me. That's not the right word, I don't in anyway wish to demean those who suffer through cancer or compare pregnancy to it. But there was something in my body that I did not want there at all, and it was an absolutely horrible feeling. 2) I believe that special recognition given to the dead is not for the dead, but for the living. Given that I had no attachment to the embryo, nor did my boyfriend at the time, there was no reason for services, etc. Further, I'll admit that while I know it was the right thing for me, my decision was not easy. Adding worries to it (like where the embryo went) wouldn't have helped any. I know this probably sounds horrible to you, but thank you for listening.

Bethany,

I would apologize for lashing out, but you just continue expressing the attitude that so angers me... the self-righteous, "I know all" attitude that makes women who've had abortions fearful of speaking out about them and causes women like me to get defensive. I will apologize for not expressing what I was really upset about in that post. I picked on something that was tangential to what I was really angry about. I have no doubt that you have talked to women who've had abortions. But it's bad reasoning to generalize from a few to "a lot".

At the end of the day, it's not really about that. I just got sick of coming around here and hearing you all talk about how caring and compassionate you are (I often read without posting), and then see you all display a completely different attitude toward women who don't fit into your little idea of what a woman should be like after she's had an abortion. (That is, constantly dropping subtle hints about how uncaring or ignorant they are - or worse) Go back and read rasqual and HisMan's reactions to me and Erin. Go even further back and read Jenny's reactions to me. Heck, read just a few threads and you're sure to find some snide jab by Heather, Jill, HisMan, Jasper, Sandy,occasionally MK, or yourself. Have you ever really listened to the feelings of those who don't regret having an abortion? Have you ever listened to the story of a woman like that and tried to be understanding rather than passive-aggressively revealing that you are filled with disgust and self-righteous pity? Or do you condescend to them the way you did to me so many nights back, assuming that I must really be hiding so much pain, trying to guilt me, rather than trying to understand what I'm really thinking and feeling (disgust with those who speak out both sides of their mouths)?

Maybe at the end of the day this is just me lashing out at you because of your reaction to me the other night. And perhaps that's not fair. But part of me thinks that nothing could be more fair. Because it's the same reaction I got from my ex OB-GYN when, like a good patient, I admitted my medical history. It's the same reaction I got from a devoutly catholic pro-lifer who happens to be a colleague of mine. And somebody needs to hear it. You people don't realize, or don't care, about the pain you cause in others with your jabs at women who've made this difficult choice. Your oh so christian compassion goes out the window when dealing with them. I'd just like someone to stand up and admit it. Perhaps you will. But then you have to accept that you're not the only one's who are callous. You have to admit that your christian love doesn't extend to everyone, even though your religion says it ought. You'd have to admit that you're f'ing hypocrites. I don't see that happening any time soon. But then again, I would have expected Jasper to say something insulting, rather than asking a question.

As for personhood-

"Anacephalic babies have been born sucking their thumbs, wetting their diapers, crying, and other things babies do. Some live longer than the time they are expected to live."

And baby chimpanzees suck their thumbs, defecate and cry out. Does that make them persons? (I wouldn't mind a yes answer there). Kittens do two of the three (and would probably do all three if they had opposable thumbs). Are they persons? How bout rats? Two of the three again. The fact that there is some physical bodily function does not personhood make.

"Are the ones who survive hours or days after birth non-persons?"

Yup, just as the brain dead organ donor is not a person.

"Want to tell that to their mothers and fathers?"

Not especially, as, given their emotional state, it would likely be rude. Would I tell it to them in the context of their arguing for rights of personhood in a court of law. You bet. Why? Because emotions - theirs or any other persons - have nothing to do with the facts. The marker for personhood would be the same whether they were emotionally attached to their baby or not. Water is H20 no matter how you feel about it. You could hate the idea that water is H20 with every bone in your body, but it wouldn't make a damned bit of difference. When did people start to think that their feelings had any impact on what's true or not? Sheesh.

"By the way, if they didn't give birth to a person, what did they give birth to?"

A brain dead human infant.

"And don't pro-choicers agree that a human being who is born is automatically granted personhood?"

I can't speak for all pro-choicers. We don't all have the same mind or - *gasp* - believe the same things. The law would indicate that, I suppose. At the end of the day, though, an anacephalic infant is equivalent, to my mind, to a stillborn. Stillborns aren't granted personhood (in the legal sense of rights under the law). So, neither should an anacephalic infant. Philosophically speaking (and not legally) there is definitely no agreement, in the pro-choice community or the philosophical community at large.

"And finally, what is your exact definition of personhood?"

My exact definition of personhood? Well, I'm not sure I can give you necessary and sufficient conditions, as I'm no ethicist, but I believe it to be both a normative status that confers on the possessor certain rights that are possessed as long as the status is possessed. What exactly those rights are is still a matter of debate, but I believe the basics are right to life and the right to self-determination (which includes bodily autonomy, among others.) If you were asking when I believe personhood begins, it is with the onset of significant brain activity (not reflex movement, but actual frontal cortex activity, purposeful, and not reflex movement, etc), which is at the very beginning of the second trimester in humans, last time I checked. Of course, that can't happen if there's no brain for there to be activity in.

Correction: nix the "both"

Bethany, As I re-read my post, I realize that I let out far more anger than I meant to. Recent events have led me to be really ticked off at christian pro-lifers for what they say to women who've had abortions, but that does not give me reason to take it out on you. I apologize.

Diana, I apologize as well. Bethany had written that piece about the rotting fetuses found in the clinic. I was mortified. These must have been 2nd trimester abortions. I saw a picture of aborted babies in a garbage can. They were piled on top of each other. When a woman knows that her baby was probably fully formed, wouldn't they wonder where the remains will go? I'm sure Bethany meant no offense either. The whole thought is just sickening!

Bethany,
I would apologize for lashing out, but you just continue expressing the attitude that so angers me... the self-righteous, "I know all" attitude that makes women who've had abortions fearful of speaking out about them and causes women like me to get defensive. I will apologize for not expressing what I was really upset about in that post. I picked on something that was tangential to what I was really angry about. I have no doubt that you have talked to women who've had abortions. But it's bad reasoning to generalize from a few to "a lot".

Diane, I understand what you are saying, and my intent never was to appear self-righteous. I was speaking from my experiences and from what I have learned over the years. And from what I have seen on Planned Parenthood websites, etc.

However, from your own admission, you considered (and still consider) the embryo to be nothing more than a lump of meaningless tissue. I don't know how I am possibly incorrect about what I said, unless you knew exactly what the baby looked like, believed that it was a complete human being - your own child, not a "something", not a "cancer"- with fingers, toes, eyes, ears, tongue, etc, and did it anyway...in which case I would consider that much more heartless than doing it in ignorance, as I feel sympathy for a women who wasn't educated about fetal development and then has an abortion...then later finds out what she's done and has to go through a whole life of regret and sorrow over what she has done.

At the end of the day, it's not really about that. I just got sick of coming around here and hearing you all talk about how caring and compassionate you are (I often read without posting), and then see you all display a completely different attitude toward women who don't fit into your little idea of what a woman should be like after she's had an abortion.

Diana, what do you think pro-lifers believe? Do you just think we have an abstract concept of wrong and right? Do you think that we don't really believe abortion is murder?

Let me ask you something. When you hear cases of women drowning their children, putting their children in microwaves, putting their children in the stove, cutting their children's arms off and letting them bleed to death.... do you feel sympathy for the women involved? Maybe you do. Do you think that any good that they have done justifies their cold hearted actions?
Do you think to yourself what a hard decision it must have been for them to do what they did, and try to see it from their perspective?
Do you try to refrain from passing judgement on them, lest you make them feel guilty for what they did?

Do you really come to a pro-life site, where you know fully well, that all pro-lifers see abortion in the EXACT same way that we view infanticide or any other kind of murder, and expect us to look at you with sympathy and compassion when you kill your own child and then say, "I feel no remorse"?

Why would you come to a site that you know is pro-life, and tell us you killed your child and tell us that we should feel compassion for you and agree that what you did was acceptable? Do you really think this is reasonable?

Why do you expect people who see an injustice to ignore the injustice for your feelings' sake?

My baby died at the same time as your baby did, and my baby was grieved and loved and wept over. Your baby was forgotten and uncared about and thrown away. How can I look at that and not feel compassion for your baby, and you, who were completely healthy and aborted simply because you didn't like "something" being in your uterus, are supposed to be sympathized? This doesn't make sense.

If you want sympathy and compassion for something you don't even supposedly care about, go to a pro-choice site. Not a site where people believe what you did was murder. I'm sure any pro-choice site you go to will agree that what you did was perfectly acceptable.

(That is, constantly dropping subtle hints about how uncaring or ignorant they are - or worse) Go back and read rasqual and HisMan's reactions to me and Erin. Go even further back and read Jenny's reactions to me. Heck, read just a few threads and you're sure to find some snide jab by Heather, Jill, HisMan, Jasper, Sandy,occasionally MK, or yourself. Have you ever really listened to the feelings of those who don't regret having an abortion?

Yes. I have! And this is why I feel they are cold and uncaring towards their baby. This doesn't mean that in other areas of life they might not be wonderful, caring people. But if they were able to kill their own child because they simply didn't want it, why do they feel the need to get sympathy? Sympathy and compassion are words that describe understanding that someone else is going through pain and wanting to help them. If you want me to feel sympathy or compassion for you, you are acknowledging you are in pain. If you are in pain, I'm here for you. If you're not in pain, what do i need to comfort you for? You have nothing to be comforted about, according to you.

Have you ever listened to the story of a woman like that and tried to be understanding rather than passive-aggressively revealing that you are filled with disgust and self-righteous pity?

Diana, why don't you understand that I genuinely find abortion absolutely disgusting? I consider it murder. The taking of an innocent human life. Of course I feel disgust that someone would kill their own child because they didn't want to be pregnant. I can't help that. It's like saying I shouldn't be disgusted when a woman is raped, that I should feel compassion for the man when he says he doesn't regret what he did. It makes absolutely no sense. I don't feel sympathy pangs for a womaan when she says "I don't care that I killed my baby. It was a good thing."

Or do you condescend to them the way you did to me so many nights back, assuming that I must really be hiding so much pain, trying to guilt me, rather than trying to understand what I'm really thinking and feeling (disgust with those who speak out both sides of their mouths)?

I understand that you have said you feel no remorse, Diana. If this is true, and you do understand what you did, then I cannot feel sympathy or compassion for what you did. I simply cannot. If you do feel regret, and you do hide your pain, and are feeling sorrowful on the inside, I can feel sympathy and compassion for you. I would feel compassion for Andrea Yates if she expressed extreme sorrow for what she did with her children.
But she doesn't.

Maybe at the end of the day this is just me lashing out at you because of your reaction to me the other night. And perhaps that's not fair. But part of me thinks that nothing could be more fair. Because it's the same reaction I got from my ex OB-GYN when, like a good patient, I admitted my medical history. It's the same reaction I got from a devoutly catholic pro-lifer who happens to be a colleague of mine.

Diana, I understand that no one wants to feel judged. And I can sympathize with the idea that you feel like people are looking down on you, and you don't like that. But you can't expect everyone to hear about your abortion, and your lack of sorrow over it, and to be perfectly okay with that. You just can't.

And somebody needs to hear it. You people don't realize, or don't care, about the pain you cause in others with your jabs at women who've made this difficult choice.

Diane, why is it such a difficult choice, if all it is is getting rid of something that doesn't amount to a hill of beans?

Your oh so christian compassion goes out the window when dealing with them.

Again, what do you need compassion for, if you feel no pain?

I'd just like someone to stand up and admit it. Perhaps you will. But then you have to accept that you're not the only one's who are callous. You have to admit that your christian love doesn't extend to everyone, even though your religion says it ought.

Diana, I am not commanded to condone murder. You are not able to understand the difference between loving someone, despite what one does, and supporting everything someone does. If I supported what you did, even though I know it is murder, I would be wrong. And I would not really love you. If I love you, I will tell you that I believe what you did was wrong. If you care about someone, you don't lie to them to spare their feelings.

You'd have to admit that you're f'ing hypocrites.

Please explain to me how I am a hypocrite.

As for personhood-

"Anacephalic babies have been born sucking their thumbs, wetting their diapers, crying, and other things babies do. Some live longer than the time they are expected to live."

And baby chimpanzees suck their thumbs, defecate and cry out. Does that make them persons? (I wouldn't mind a yes answer there).

Is this truly what you are suggesting...that the fact that an ape can do these things dehumanizes anacephalic? What about babies with brains? I guess since they really can't do much more than an ape can, they are truly not persons either, according to your logic?

Kittens do two of the three (and would probably do all three if they had opposable thumbs). Are they persons? How bout rats? Two of the three again. The fact that there is some physical bodily function does not personhood make.

However, the fact that their body HUMAN does personhood make. I can't believe that you are actually saying that a born baby is not human because he or she does not function exactly like you. Would it be acceptable for you, if a woman who had an anacephalic baby who was surviving past the first day, stabbed that baby in the heart, drowned the baby, because she knew it was going to die soon anyway? Do you support infanticide?

"Want to tell that to their mothers and fathers?"

Not especially, as, given their emotional state, it would likely be rude. Would I tell it to them in the context of their arguing for rights of personhood in a court of law. You bet. Why? Because emotions - theirs or any other persons - have nothing to do with the facts.

Okay, let's turn that around. Your emotions about your pregnancy and abortion have nothing to do with the fact that you aborted your child, a complete human being....so why do you expect me to take your feelings over my knowledge that abortion is killing innocent human life? Why do you expect me to misplace my sympathies?

The marker for personhood would be the same whether they were emotionally attached to their baby or not. Water is H20 no matter how you feel about it. You could hate the idea that water is H20 with every bone in your body, but it wouldn't make a damned bit of difference. When did people start to think that their feelings had any impact on what's true or not? Sheesh.

Their feelings are not impacting what is true or not...their feelings are a RESULT of what is true. That their baby was a person and was human and deserved to be respected as such.

Bethany, As I re-read my post, I realize that I let out far more anger than I meant to. Recent events have led me to be really ticked off at christian pro-lifers for what they say to women who've had abortions, but that does not give me reason to take it out on you. I apologize.

Understood, however I still responded to your above posts because I feel that they are how you truly feel and I wanted you to hear my side on this. I hope you understand that I have no hatred for you, only sadness at the thought that you think that what you did was not only a good thing, but all pro-lifers should accept it as a good thing also.

Bethany,
Wonderful posts.
I understand both you (and Lauren?) have suffered the loss of your children through miscarriage. I have too. I would love to connect with you both off-line somehow so we can discuss this issue as well. My losses brought me to discover this sight as I was really trying to gather information on pregnancy loss.

I have worked dilegently over the last five years to increase the rights for women who have suffered miscarriage. It is my belief that the pro-choice movement has completely hi-jacked and always trumps the issue of pregnancy loss leaving women who miscarry without good accurate medical information and the care and compassion they need to get through their difficult losses.

I too was told it was just a bunch of grey tissue until I lost my little one at home after a horrible at-home miscarriage.

When will the lies they tell women stop.

So forgive me Diana, if I come across somewhat strong in my convictions, but the pro-choice movement has affected me and thousands of other women who suffer a pregnancy loss in a substantial way due to their efforts to make sure our society believes that what we lost was nothing more than a blob of tissue and doesn't deserve to be recognized for anything more than that.

Diana, here is one issue to think about. After women suffer a miscarriage which is generally defined up to 20 weeks gestation, in almost all states these babies are taken away from their mother and tossed away as medical waste in the hospital incinerators.

Denpending on hospital policies, women are not allowed to see, hold or say a tearful goodbye to thier babies. Many women do not find out until afterwards what actually happened to their unborn. Laws have been initiated and passed in some states so women have the right to know what will happen to their baby and what their rights are for fetal disposition.

I tried in my state, but because ONE pro-choicer voiced her concern it gave the senator who was to author the bill pause and we were withdrawn off the committee schedule.

We connected with her to reconcile, but it was too late.

This is a women's health issue. Not pro-choice, not Pro-life. The bill was never meant to take a political stance. But the pro-choice movement trumped again thus failing women.

Denpending on hospital policies, women are not allowed to see, hold or say a tearful goodbye to thier babies.

That's right, if I had gotten a d & c, as they offered me, I would never have gotten to hold the baby. Also, if I had taken the baby in to get it tested to see if it was a girl or a boy, they would have kept the remains and not given it back to me. Thank goodness I miscarried naturally. I was able to give my baby a proper burial.

Once the doctors have the baby, they don't give it back. A dear sweet lady who posted on my blog recently described her pain as she realized she would not be able to see her baby after she had a D & C on her baby who had died. She is overwhelmed with grief and pain, seeking closure. One thing that has given her a little bit of peace is seeing the pictures of my baby, and it has, as she put it, "given my baby a face". She needed to know what her baby looked like, she needed to have that evidence that she had truly had a life within her...no one else she knows really seems to understand the grief she feels, that she truly lost a child. She is a bereaved mother. Others expect her to move on, and so she tries to put on a cheerful face, but it is so hard because some other people don't really consider the unborn child to be that special. You know, before I had my miscarriage, I have to admit, I knew it was sad, but I REALLY did not know or understand the impact of losing one to miscarriage until I experienced mine. The grief is so excruciating ...much harder to bear than most people realize.

After I had my miscarriage I was AMAZED to see how many people "came out of the woodwork" to let me in on their miscarriages and the pain they had dealt with.

Sandy, I am so sorry for your loss, and I would enjoy talking to you in private some time as well. If you go to my blog: http://bethany.preciousinfants.com and click "pregnancy loss" you can read about my miscarriage and you can comment there and give me your email, from there if you'd like. Or click the "contact me" link and send me an email.

By the way, I want to clarify that I understand that not all who miscarry naturally are able to find the baby, unfortunately.

Bethany, unfortunately, I can't respond to everything.

"However, from your own admission, you considered (and still consider) the embryo to be nothing more than a lump of meaningless tissue. I don't know how I am possibly incorrect about what I said, unless you knew exactly what the baby looked like, believed that it was a complete human being - your own child, not a "something", not a "cancer"- with fingers, toes, eyes, ears, tongue, etc, and did it anyway...in which case I would consider that much more heartless than doing it in ignorance."

I never said it was a meaningless lump of tissue. I know exactly what it was - an embryo, a potential person. And that's why it's a difficult choice for many, because we are more than aware of the potentiality that is there. I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense to you, but the world isn't paint by number. It's messy. Things don't always fit perfectly into your predetermined categories. This is exactly what I'm talking about, Bethany, quit assuming and putting words in people's mouths. I know exactly what an embryo looks like at 5 weeks of pregnancy. I'm so glad that, rather than loving your enemies, you can sit and judge about my heartlessness. You don't think that is self-righteous? You don't think that this extends beyond the bounds of what is allowed by your god, judging what is in my heart? My childhood pastor would have said otherwise.

"Why would you come to a site that you know is pro-life, and tell us you killed your child and tell us that we should feel compassion for you and agree that what you did was acceptable? Do you really think this is reasonable?"

You are correct that I should not have used the word "compassion". A more accurate word would have been "caring". But do I think it is reasonable to come to a den of christians and expect love, humility, understanding and lack of judgment about the state of my soul? Well, given your set of beliefs, I would have. But given the facts of the situation, I guess you're right. It would have been more reasonable for me to expect a bunch of hypocrites who profess a whole bunch of crap about christian love and christian ideals and then don't reflect them in their actions and the things they say about women who've had abortions and doctors who provide them.

Bethany, I do understand that you find abortion disgusting. But I also understand that you consider yourself a christian. I thought christians were supposed to be humble, caring, forgiving, and loving. Even of their enemies. I thought christians were supposed to leave it to god to judge what is in the hearts of others. Was I wrong? Is it christian to be self-righteous, mean-spirited, presumptive, and entirely judgmental about what is inside another person? If that's the case, then I'm glad I'm not of your ilk.

"I understand that no one wants to feel judged. And I can sympathize with the idea that you feel like people are looking down on you, and you don't like that. But you can't expect everyone to hear about your abortion, and your lack of sorrow over it, and to be perfectly okay with that. You just can't."

Agreed. But can't I expect you "good christian folk" to be caring, understanding, humble and loving? I don't expect you to accept my abortion. I don't expect you to like it. I do expect you, as a self-professed christian, to be loving rather than mean-spirited, to be forgiving and caring rather than self-righteous and judgmental. I expect you to leave it to god what is in my heart, rather than making your own assumptions. Is that too much to expect? Oh, and incidentally, I CAN and SHOULD expect a doctor to act professionally, thank you very much, which is why I am going to PP now rather than going where my insurance will allow me (it's a catholic university).

"Diana, I am not commanded to condone murder. You are not able to understand the difference between loving someone, despite what one does, and supporting everything someone does."

I'm perfectly aware of the difference, thank you, although I appreciate your insulting my intelligence. Really sweet of you.

"If I supported what you did, even though I know it is murder, I would be wrong. And I would not really love you. If I love you, I will tell you that I believe what you did was wrong. If you care about someone, you don't lie to them to spare their feelings."

I completely understand this, Bethany. You can tell me it was wrong all day long. But assuming that I am cold and heartless without listening to me, assuming that doctors are "dead inside" simply because they provide a service you don't like, insinuating that women who have different moral systems than you, or who view sex differently, are sluts and deserve what they get, and most of all, drawing conclusions about what I or others are truly feeling inside without listening at all, those are not acts of love. That is not the way someone who loves another acts toward them. You've said a few words, Bethany, but you have never once acted as one who bears any sort of christian love or caring toward me, or toward other girls around here who've admitted they've had abortions, or toward doctors who perform them. You don't have to like what they do. I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you to act like a real christian or admit that you're not.

"Please explain to me how I am a hypocrite."

I think I've done a decent job of that above. You profess christian ideals and then don't practice what you preach. That's hypocrisy, no?

"Is this truly what you are suggesting...that the fact that an ape can do these things dehumanizes anacephalic? What about babies with brains? I guess since they really can't do much more than an ape can, they are truly not persons either, according to your logic?"

No, Bethany, and I'm pretty sure that you were fully aware of what I was suggesting. Jill's really taught you the art of spin, hasn't she? All I was indicating was that thumbsucking, defecating and crying are not sufficient for personhood, since non-persons do them.

"However, the fact that their body HUMAN does personhood make."

Really? How 'bout proving it rather than just stating it?

"I can't believe that you are actually saying that a born baby is not human because he or she does not function exactly like you."

I'm glad you can't believe it, because that obviously was not what I was saying. Nice spin job though. Would you like to have an actual rational argument, or are you going to continue to misrepresent everything I say?

"Would it be acceptable for you, if a woman who had an anacephalic baby who was surviving past the first day, stabbed that baby in the heart, drowned the baby, because she knew it was going to die soon anyway? Do you support infanticide?"

Nice touch there, Bethany, beg the question, why don't you? You must be Jill's best student. It's not infanticide if the the individual is brain dead. Quit assuming what you're trying to prove. I'd see it about the same as stabbing a still born, or a brain dead adult. Pretty sick, (just like stabbing a corpse is sick) but no more murder than pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead.

"Okay, let's turn that around. Your emotions about your pregnancy and abortion have nothing to do with the fact that you aborted your child, a complete human being....so why do you expect me to take your feelings over my knowledge that abortion is killing innocent human life? Why do you expect me to misplace my sympathies?"

I don't. I expect you to act like a real christian and show a little love and caring and humility rather than self-righteousness and mean-spirit. But we went over that above.

"Their feelings are not impacting what is true or not...their feelings are a RESULT of what is true. That their baby was a person and was human and deserved to be respected as such. "

That might be true, it might not. But their feelings about it are no more EVIDENCE of a fact than my being giddy about water's being H20 is evidence of that fact. If you are trying to use it as evidence (which you appear to be), then you are committing a fallacy - that of emotional appeal. Bad logic may win idiots over to your side, but it can't change the facts any more than your emotions can.

"So forgive me Diana, if I come across somewhat strong in my convictions."

Sandy, I very much appreciate those who stand strong in their convictions. My argument with Bethany was merely an attempt to point out that those who have christian convictions around here do not always stand so strong in them. I appreciate you asking for forgiveness, though, and as such forgive you for any offense I may have taken (and have, at this point, forgotten).

"Diana, here is one issue to think about. After women suffer a miscarriage which is generally defined up to 20 weeks gestation, in almost all states these babies are taken away from their mother and tossed away as medical waste in the hospital incinerators. Denpending on hospital policies, women are not allowed to see, hold or say a tearful goodbye to thier babies. Many women do not find out until afterwards what actually happened to their unborn. Laws have been initiated and passed in some states so women have the right to know what will happen to their baby and what their rights are for fetal disposition."

I'm actually on your side on this one. As I said to Jasper, I believe that ceremony and special recognition after death is for the living, not the dead, and as such, if a woman wants to hold her miscarried baby and have a proper memorial service, I think it is her right to do so. (But I don't think personhood has anything to do with it)

Diana, since when does caring = agreeing with?

Suppose you have a brother who has committed murder, and he has no remorse. Do you still care for your brother? But do you condemn his actions? If you condemn his actions are you telling him you absolutely do not care about him anymore? Must you support his murder in order to be a loving sister?

As for your comment about stabbing an anacephalic baby who is LIVING, that is just sick. Sick sick sick.

I don't agree with your idea that you're a victim. You're not a victim just because people don't appreciate and support whole heartedly embrace your stance on what you did when you publicly tell them you did it and have no remorse.

Loving your enemies has nothing to do with supporting their evil deeds. We are commanded NOT to support evil deeds. However, we can still love someone despite their sins, just as Christ loved us despite our sins.

Let me know what you know about the Bible, Diana, beyond the "judge not that ye be not judged" verse. Since you and others take that one verse out of the entire Bible, pull it out of context and twist it to fit your meaning and suit your purpose.

If someone comes up to a Christian and says, I killed my baby and I don't care because I think it was just a potential person, a Christian has every right to say, that's wrong and I dont support it. It's not self righteous anymore than it is to make a statement that rape is wrong. Am I being self righteous if I tell someone who raped in the past once but doesn't regret having done it, that he is wrong?
Or am I merely stating an observation?

I am sorry I don't fit into your mold of what you think a Christian should be. I think you are incorrect and it would probably be a good idea to take out a Bible and actually find out what Christianity is actually about before you decide what you think a Christian is and a Christian isn't.

"Diana, since when does caring = agreeing with?"

I never said it did. I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm not asking you to accept my abortion. I'm asking you (and this really isn't directed just at you) to stop being self-righteous presumptive and judgmental about the inner feelings of others.

"Suppose you have a brother who has committed murder, and he has no remorse. Do you still care for your brother? But do you condemn his actions? If you condemn his actions are you telling him you absolutely do not care about him anymore? Must you support his murder in order to be a loving sister?"

No, of course not. But I also wouldn't go around telling him that he was cold and heartless, that he must be dead inside. I wouldn't treat him as lesser than me because he made a bad choice and views it differently than I do. You worry so much about my embryo, and you condemn me for not treating it as a person, and yet you (and others here) treat me and others who've had abortions or doctors who provide them as somehow less worthy than you of love and respect as persons. I don't think that is very christian.

"As for your comment about stabbing an anacephalic baby who is LIVING, that is just sick. Sick sick sick."

What an incredibly persuasive and logical argument!

"I don't agree with your idea that you're a victim. You're not a victim just because people don't appreciate and support whole heartedly embrace your stance on what you did when you publicly tell them you did it and have no remorse."

Did you read my last post? I'm not asking you to agree. I'm not asking you to embrace my stance. I'm asking you to be caring, loving and humble. And I'm not claiming I'm a victim. I apologize if it came off that way. I'm claiming that the holier-than-thou christians around here are hypocrites. That's all.

"Let me know what you know about the Bible, Diana, beyond the "judge not that ye be not judged" verse. Since you and others take that one verse out of the entire Bible, pull it out of context and twist it to fit your meaning and suit your purpose."

Bethany, I was raised in an extremely religious household. We bounced from church to church a lot since no individual church fully satisfied my father's spiritual needs. I was baptised catholic as a baby, was a lutheran for a while, went to a "church of god", and my family did stints as prebyterians, methodists, penecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few various non-denominational churches. The bulk of my upbringing, however, was Southern Baptist. No birth control, no smoking, no drinking, no premarital sex, no dancing, church nearly all day sunday, bible study on monday, wednesday and friday. I was an AWANA as a child (if you know what that is). I've read the bible cover to cover several times. Much of the reason that I am an atheist today is the result of having so much religion in my childhood. Incidentally, part of the reason I chose abortion was my parent's religiousness.

My interpretation of "judge not lest ye be judged" comes from one of my favorite childhood pastors. (And is one of my favorites among the numerous interpretations that I've heard, since I feel it is most consistent with the rest of christian ideology). A christian, the pastor told us, does not judge what is in the hearts of other men. That is for god to decide. Thus, you do not judge the eternal fate of another, nor do you judge whether their soul is black or pure, for it is not your place. Only god truly knows what is in our hearts, and only he is in a position to truly judge. Perhaps he took it out of context, but I chose to trust his interpretation, as he was one of the most learned and truly warm, forgiving, understanding, humble, and energetically spiritual christians I have ever met.

"If someone comes up to a Christian and says, I killed my baby and I don't care because I think it was just a potential person, a Christian has every right to say, that's wrong and I dont support it. It's not self righteous anymore than it is to make a statement that rape is wrong. Am I being self righteous if I tell someone who raped in the past once but doesn't regret having done it, that he is wrong?"

No. And if you were paying attention to what I said, you would know that that is not what I am picking on. A christian has every right to say it is wrong. He has no right to judge the inner feelings of the man, or the state of his soul. He has no right to assume that he, who is undoubtedly without sin, is higher or holier than the individual who has committed this wrong. Metaphorically speaking, he has no right to cast the first stone.

"Or am I merely stating an observation?"

Indeed you are stating your observation. And I've no problem with that. My problem is with your further *judgments* of the "hearts" of those who have committed what is wrong in your eyes.

"I am sorry I don't fit into your mold of what you think a Christian should be. I think you are incorrect and it would probably be a good idea to take out a Bible and actually find out what Christianity is actually about before you decide what you think a Christian is and a Christian isn't."

Interesting that you assume that just because I am an atheist, I have no knowledge of christianity. As should have become clear above, my religious backgroud puts me in a good position to have an idea of what christianity is all about - or rather what it is supposed to be about. Christ preached love, forgiveness, humility, and peace. He taught that god is loving and forgiving (if we repent). In so many of the stories of the New Testament, he demonstrates his unwillingness to judge the hearts of those who sin, unlike those around him. He comes to sinners with love and understanding. Those he does rail against - the pharisees - are just the sort of people who take themselves to be spiritually superior to others, who treat sinners and the poor as lesser, and who seek only power and money in religion. That is what I think a christian ought to be like - as much like Christ as possible. I'm sorry that you think that is incorrect. If it's any consolation, however, I've not met many christians these days who fit into that mold, or even try.

correction: who is undoubtedly *not* without sin

So basically what you're angry with me about is not what I said about you but what I said about abortionists?

Diana, I know women who have had abortions and remain in heavy denial. A friend of mine and I drove past a Planned Parenthood one day. This was before I considered myself pro life. There were people holding signs and picketing that day. This particular girlfriend of mine had an abortion in her past. She couldn't stand the site of the picketers. They were just holding up signs and quietly standing there. She freaked out and began yelling every curse word she could think of out the window. She muttered out something about RTL's and adoption. She turned to me and insisted that her abortion was "a blob." She and I don't talk anymore, but I KNOW she was in denial, and she refused to face the truth. Why do RTLers anger women so? Do you think you may be experiencing some denial?

"Diana, since when does caring = agreeing with?"
I never said it did. I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm not asking you to accept my abortion. I'm asking you (and this really isn't directed just at you) to stop being self-righteous presumptive and judgmental about the inner feelings of others.

I'm sorry, Diane, I just don't understand. Why is it self righteous to assume that an abortionist, who kills babies for a living, has hardened his heart and has become dead inside? It seems like an obvious conclusion. All Christians, when we were sinners were "dead inside" until we accepted Christ as savior. This is not an insult, merely an observation. If a person feeds the homeless or runs errands for the elderly, would I be wrong to conclude that they had a heart of Gold?
If a person like Andrea Yates drowns her 5 children in a bathtub and feels no remorse, can I not safely conclude that there is something wrong with her, that her heart has been hardened in some way?

What in my assumptions is wrong or haughty?

What I said was based on what I have seen, heard, and read about. I have seen dozens of tapes of different abortionists, and not a single one had a happy demeanor. Not a single one. As soon as I saw the first tape of this guy above, I knew he was fake, because he was too smiley. Maybe there's an abortionist out there who smiles a lot, but I've never seen it. And if they do, I'd have to wonder even MORE about their heart. I mean, how can you kill babies and smile about it?

You seem to think that just because I see them as having a heart of stone that I don't see any hope for them. That is not true. Dr Bernard Nathanson was an abortionist with a heart of stone. I'm sure he would admit to you that he was dead inside. However, he came to know Christ as his Savior, and he stopped doing abortions, and he even exposed all of the lies he had been promoting all of that time. His heart is now not stone...Jesus can melt even the hardest of hearts.

No, of course not. But I also wouldn't go around telling him that he was cold and heartless, that he must be dead inside.

If he murdered an innocent person in cold blood, would it really be so wrong to conclude this was the case?

I wouldn't treat him as lesser than me because he made a bad choice and views it differently than I do.

Diane, I don't think anyone could be lesser than me. That's what I don't think you realize. Just because I make judgements about right and wrong does not mean that I am somehow without sin. Or that I consider myself without sin. I am a sinner, just like everyone else. But if I murdered someone in cold blood, I wouldn't expect people to just say, "Oh well, thats just fine, no problem. You're still a great person." What if your brother had murdered someone close to you, your mother perhaps? Would this not be cold blooded to you? Would you perhaps wonder if he had a heart of stone?

You worry so much about my embryo, and you condemn me for not treating it as a person, and yet you (and others here) treat me and others who've had abortions or doctors who provide them as somehow less worthy than you of love and respect as persons. I don't think that is very christian.

See, this is where you're getting totally mixed up and misinterpreting my intent. For some reason, you think I consider you less of a person, when in reality, I see you as a person like me, and I'm simply trying to help you see from my point of view.

And to be honest, I probably am doing the same thing with your posts, misinterpreting your intent. I find your posts kind of taunting like "haha I'm smarter than you, and haha I killed my baby, and Haha I don't think it was a person, and haha there's nothing you can do about it but haha you're a Christian and you can't judge me!"
But I'm sure that's not how you mean to come across, is it? That is honestly how I feel when you post.

"I don't agree with your idea that you're a victim. You're not a victim just because people don't appreciate and support whole heartedly embrace your stance on what you did when you publicly tell them you did it and have no remorse."
Did you read my last post? I'm not asking you to agree. I'm not asking you to embrace my stance. I'm asking you to be caring, loving and humble. And I'm not claiming I'm a victim. I apologize if it came off that way. I'm claiming that the holier-than-thou christians around here are hypocrites. That's all.

Diane, I don't understand why you feel I don't care about you. Not that you will believe me, but I do care.

Incidentally, part of the reason I chose abortion was my parent's religiousness.

Thus, the reason I feel like you are taunting. "haha I aborted my child because I hate religion".
That's how I read that.

Indeed you are stating your observation. And I've no problem with that. My problem is with your further *judgments* of the "hearts" of those who have committed what is wrong in your eyes.

The Bible specifically says:
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies Matt 15:19

How can I not therefore conclude that it is the abortionists heart that allows him to murder?

Interesting that you assume that just because I am an atheist, I have no knowledge of christianity.

I didn't say that. But I am pretty sure that was the only verse you were referring to. There aren't really any other verses that you could find that support your idea, and that one is taken out of context.

As should have become clear above, my religious backgroud puts me in a good position to have an idea of what christianity is all about - or rather what it is supposed to be about. Christ preached love, forgiveness, humility, and peace.

In order to be forgiven, don't you first have to be sorry?

He taught that god is loving and forgiving (if we repent).

YES! Exactly...if we repent!

In so many of the stories of the New Testament, he demonstrates his unwillingness to judge the hearts of those who sin, unlike those around him.

No, you're wrong about that. Jesus was God, He said so himself. If you've read the Bible then you know that "man looketh on the outward appearance but God looketh on the heart". God does judge hearts whether they are repentant or whether they are hardened.

He comes to sinners with love and understanding. Those he does rail against - the pharisees - are just the sort of people who take themselves to be spiritually superior to others, who treat sinners and the poor as lesser, and who seek only power and money in religion.

Pharisees were liars and hypocrites, and were more concerned with money, looks, and appearance of being Christian than actually being Christian. It wasn't about being able to judge right and wrong...they were judging unfairly and they were condemning people and denying that they themselves had sin. The publicans were the people who realized they were sinners and were willing to repent. God calls not the righteous but sinners to repentance. All of us are sinners, and all of us have to realize that before we can receive grace, according to the Bible.

That is what I think a christian ought to be like - as much like Christ as possible. I'm sorry that you think that is incorrect. If it's any consolation, however, I've not met many christians these days who fit into that mold, or even try.

When Jesus said don't throw stones at the woman, do you think that she was non remorseful for her adultery, or do you think that she was feeling remorse? I believe that Jesus saw her heart, and it was one of repentance, and this is precisely why Jesus was teaching this lesson to others...to show grace to those who have sinned and feel remorse for their actions.

Bethany and Sandy, sensational posts. I am sorry that you both lost your children due to miscarriage. I can't express enough sympathy.

Bethany, the Pharisees were Jewish, not Christian. :)

Thank you, Heather. I appreciate it so much. Today has been hard for me, I think that sometimes I get too emotionally involved in these debates.

I know that by now I would have been about 7 months along... I think the toughest part will come by what would have been my due date in September. I haven't been able to conceive again yet...It hasn't been so long but to me it seems like forever. I think it's just not God's will for me to have another one just yet. I hope that it won't be very much longer though.

Less, you're right. lol

Diana,
This can be and is a very complicated subject to discuss on line. It is very hard and difficult to read and interpret responses as there is no voice influction or facial expressions to read.

I think Bethany has done a great job in communicating her stand on the issue with a compassionate demeanor.

It frustrates me, that we err on the side of life and somehow we are the side that in your opionion shows no compassion.

People judge people everday. It's what we do. It's what we set our societal standards by.

You judge people for different reasons. Admit it.

If you saw someone abusing a puppy you would be outraged and take action as you should. If you saw someone abuse a child I hope you would be outraged enough to make it your business and take action as this child maybe has nobody else to speak on their behalf.

It is no different for the pro-life supporters that judge you for your decision to end the life of your unborn.

Don't make us feel guilty for standing up
for the rights of the unborn. I think you protest too much.

They always say that a serial killer starts out abusing animals and moves up from there. Why is it different abusing the unborn.

How could any human being make a living from abusing the unborn by tearing their little innocent bodies to shreds and feel like this is a noble profession?

What is the difference between tearing apart the unborn inside a woman's womb vs. delivering that live baby and then dismembering it on a table piece by piece just to watch it suffer and die.
Be honest with yourself, would you support that? There is really no difference in the method, just the location. Inside the womb vs., outside the womb.It is sadistic and sickening that our society allows this to continue.

As a mother, I cannot and will not EVER understand how ANY woman could initiate and subject her own flesh and blood to be brutally tortured and murdered then taken from her body.
EVER!!!!
The fact that you chose to abort as defiance to your parents is even more disturbing to me, and I think it disturbs you as well. You are just unwilling to admit it.

Just know that when you decide to voice your guilt and remorse for what you have done, it woun't be the pro-choice side to support you, it will be the pro-life side that is willing to give you comfort and support to work through your issues with your choice. They are the compassionate one's that will offer you a shoulder and give you healing.

The pro-choice side will cast you aside and call you a traitor.

Sandy, how right you are. I have read some stories!!! There are plenty of sites that support what you've said. The women who regretted their abortions found no comfort in the "CHOICE" side. Some say that they were called "nuts" told "you've got issues" and so on. One woman claimed she called the abortion clinic crying. She wanted to talk to someone, and they hung up on her. I have read stories about abortionists being ice cold to their patients.Some women claim rude remarks and rough handling. It makes me sick. How can we call it a good thing? Abortion is not madicine. It's murder! Murder of the ugliest kind!

Bethany,

First off, my name is Diana, not Diane. I'm seriously not trying to be mean or anything in saying that. It just happens to be one of my pet peeves.

It has become increasingly obvious to me that we are talking past each other. Sandy may be right. This may be the sort of conversation that cannot be easily had over the internet. You and I obviously just have a different understanding of what it means to be a true Christian. And as such, that's fine. I will not try to hold you to ideals that you yourself do not embrace.

But please understand that what I was (and still am) angry about is not the fact that you and other pro-lifers claim that abortion is murder, or hold that doctors who perform them and women who obtain them are murderers. What I am angry about is when pro-lifers make assumptions about who we are and what we feel without knowing anything about us. It's when people say things like "women who've had abortions would make terrible mothers" or, as happened in the incident that triggered this whole thing recently, the very "christian" in-laws of a close friend of mine who found out that she had an abortion after being raped when she was 20, now refuse to see her and told their son that he should keep a very close eye on their newborn because "she might kill this child too." I am not expecting you to like abortion, or to accept it. I'm merely asking you to treat others with respect, and to me that means not jumping to conclusions about them or insulting them without knowing all the facts, without really knowing them at all.

Also, I'm sorry if my posts come off as taunting. I'm not trying to come off as pedantic, nor do I think I am smarter than anyone here. In like kind, however. Despite your statements, your posts do not come off as caring. They come off as condescending from a point of moral superiority. As a result, since we've been misreading each other, perhaps it would be better to drop this topic altogether and start with a clean slate.

Sandy,

Much of what I just said to Bethany applies here as well.

"Don't make us feel guilty for standing up
for the rights of the unborn. I think you protest too much."

That was not my intent. I have no problem with you standing up against a situation that you feel is wrong. What I have a problem with is the lack of christian caring and love that is displayed around here, most of all in the assumptions that people make about others.

"How could any human being make a living from abusing the unborn by tearing their little innocent bodies to shreds and feel like this is a noble profession?"

Perhaps because they see the situation differently than you do? Perhaps because they have a different perspective on the rights of a woman?

"What is the difference between tearing apart the unborn inside a woman's womb vs. delivering that live baby and then dismembering it on a table piece by piece just to watch it suffer and die. Be honest with yourself, would you support that?"

Of course not.

"There is really no difference in the method, just the location. Inside the womb vs., outside the womb."

But that difference is the crux of the issue. Using a woman's body without her consent or not? That's the whole point.

"As a mother, I cannot and will not EVER understand how ANY woman could initiate and subject her own flesh and blood to be brutally tortured and murdered then taken from her body.
EVER!!!!"

Glad to know that. I guess when I decide to be guilty about this (as you assume in your post without knowing the first thing about me), you won't be there to listen to me work through my feelings, since you'll be without understanding.

"The fact that you chose to abort as defiance to your parents is even more disturbing to me, and I think it disturbs you as well. You are just unwilling to admit it."

I didn't abort in defiance of my parents. I didn't say that I did. What would make you think that was the case? Part of the reasoning that went into my decision was the fact that my extremely religious parents would have disowned me if they had discovered that I was having pre-marital sex (which they certainly would have had I taken the pregnancy to term). I decided to save my relationship with my parents by doing something that, while they would abhor it, they don't know about. I love my parents very much, despite the fact that I completely disagree with their moral worldview, so rather than suffer the fact that their love for me does not exceed their obedience to their god, I keep this secret from them.

Are you still so disturbed, Sandy? I'm curious why, given one line in one post, you chose to assume that it was defiance of my parents, and not fear of their religious zealousness, that was my impetus? Perhaps because you assumed something about who I am inside based solely on the fact that I've had an abortion? Incidentally, that was not my only reason.

"Just know that when you decide to voice your guilt and remorse for what you have done, it woun't be the pro-choice side to support you, it will be the pro-life side that is willing to give you comfort and support to work through your issues with your choice. They are the compassionate one's that will offer you a shoulder and give you healing."

They've been oh so willing so far. Actually, one of my biggest issues of late is not guilt over the procedure, but increased worry about the way people view or treat me if I share this fact. Thusfar, it has only been pro-choice people who have been willing to listen. Pro-life people (especially those around here) just keep impugning my character. Let's assume for a moment that it was evil. I'm curious why you think that insisting that I am analogous to a serial killer or a puppy torturer, assuming that I will one day feel guilt for my actions, an in general giving every indication that you take me to be heartless, callous, cold, defiant and completely immoral is somehow going to get me, or any other woman who has had an abortion, to change her mind and come to you for aid. Wouldn't it be better to note that we are all sinners, and that while this is a terrible sin (in your eyes), that does not mean I'm completely hopeless? Don't you think you catch more flies with honey?

How 'bout, in like kind with all the assumptions you've made about me, I make one about you: I think you get off on making assumptions about women who've had abortions and doctors who perform them, and probably atheists, evolutionary biologists, people who engage in pre-marital sex, etc, etc, etc because it makes you feel better about yourself. You get to look at yourself and say "Oh, look how godly and wonderful I am!".

Was that assumption about you right? Probably not. I don't really know you well enough to actually make such judgments. Nor is it very respectful of me to assume these things about you just because I tend to think that this is what must be the case with people who make comments like those that you make. It's much more likely that I will be able to engage in rational conversation with you, and perhaps get you to understand where I'm coming from (even if you don't agree) if I don't make assumptions about who you really are and you don't make them about me.

Diane, come on. All you have done this entire time is assume. You have assumed that I am not caring. Do you know me? No, but you assume things about me. Yet, you feel that I shouldn't have the right to do the same! You have assumed that Sandy and I hate you. You have assumed that our intentions are to make you feel terrible about yourself. You assume we are out to hurt your feelings. You assume that we are not "true" Christians. You assume that we are heartless towards women who have aborted. You assume that we feel superior to you. You assume just as much as any other person, based on what you see and hear and how you experienced things in life, so don't sit there on your pedastool, thinking you have a right to tell us that we have no right to feel a certain way, or to assume things ourselves, and thinking you're somehow superior to us because you supposedly have so much more concern for people than we do. It's totally assumed.

Part of the reasoning that went into my decision was the fact that my extremely religious parents would have disowned me if they had discovered that I was having pre-marital sex (which they certainly would have had I taken the pregnancy to term).

I'm sorry you didn't feel you had a support system in place there, but you know, a lot of women have come into crisis pregnancy centers with their parents, found out they were pregnant, thought for sure that their parents would disown them or worse, and it never happened.

At the pregnancy center, we are trained to be prepared for 3 reactions that different parents will have to the discovery that their child is pregnant.

One is, the parent will temporarily be angry and shocked and not know exactly how to handle the information, but over time will become used to the idea and will become supportive and helpful. This is the most common, I think.

Second is they could be extremely supportive.

Third could be the kind of parent who would actually be awful enough to disown their child because of the pregnancy. There are some people like this, but it is supposed to be very rare.

Most parents who find out about the pregnancy are said to have feelings of betrayal and shock, but eventually do come to terms with the reality of the situation and deal with it and are supportive.

We at the pregnancy center try to counsel both the parents and the girl and help them to overcome any problems and misunderstandings on both sides.

We try to help them get along...sometimes there is nothing we can do, but if the girl is actually being disowned (which we think is absolutely horrible that any parent would do such a thing), we have housing provided and shelters where we can help them until things can be worked out, or as long as they need it.

A lot of teenagers have come into CPC's believing with all of their heart that if their parents found out, they would be dead. But when their parents actually do find out, even the very devoutly religious ones, they are shocked to find out how supportive their parents truly are.

If you ever become a parent, I think you will understand the protective nature that seems to come by instinct.. we want what's best for our children, and we don't keep them away from potentially harmful situations to hurt them but to protect them. I doubt that your parents had any ill intent in mind, but like I said, I don't know them.

Oops, I notice I called you Diane in the other post...sorry, I keep typing it that way. I always read it Diana though.

Bethany,

I recognize that I have done it too. I won't attempt to deny that. I've never said I was perfect. And to a certain extent, in some places, I don't take it to be assuming so much as drawing conclusions from the evidence available. Given the tone and wording of some of my posts, I'm not shocked that you thought I was taunting and pedantic. I don't mean it that way, but I understand how it might be taken that way. There is evidence there, even though it leads to the wrong conclusion. The same goes for the other way around. At the end of the day, though, I don't think the fact that I have had an abortion and don't regret it (and that applies to other women as well) or that doctors who perform these procedures don't feel terrible pain over it, is sufficient evidence to conclude that I am (or they are) heartless, cold, dead inside, or completely lacking in moral feeling. Or that I would make a bad mother. Or that I have it out for all children, or... the list of things I've heard on this site and elsewhere could go on and on. You may think that the act and my feelings about it are cold or evil, or whatever, but that alone does not make me a bad person. It does not make me heartless. It does not make me dead inside. This is something you yourself noted earlier. As such, that fact alone is not evidence of the rest of my character.

At the end of the day, as pissed off as I was, I shouldn't have taken it out on you, and I did apologize. I guess I'd prefer that what I'm saying be taken as a suggestion by pro-lifers in general. As a woman whose had an abortion with whom you've taken only steps back, rather than steps forward, I guess I'm trying to suggest that you'll make a lot more headway with women who've had abortions if you don't immediately start off by basically telling them that they're foregone conclusions. And a lot of the devil there is in the details. It's not just what people outright say, but what they insinuate or presuppose in making other statements. I don't, of course, mean this solely directed at you personally, Bethany, but at the community as a whole.

"If you ever become a parent, I think you will understand the protective nature that seems to come by instinct.. we want what's best for our children, and we don't keep them away from potentially harmful situations to hurt them but to protect them. I doubt that your parents had any ill intent in mind, but like I said, I don't know them."

I understand that many women think what I knew and then their parents turn out to be otherwise. I have a feeling that, given the changes my parents have gone through recently, they wouldn't react the same way now as they would have then (this was 6 years ago). But my parents approved of the decision of their friends (through the church) to disown their daughter when she became pregnant, as well as the decision of another family to disown their son when he admitted he was an atheist. My father told me in no uncertain terms after the incident with the pregnant girl, "You can expect the same if you ever do anything like that". He was not being funny. You have to understand that at this point, they weren't just really religious in the way that you or MK or HisMan are religious. They were on the verge of Branch Dividean nutjob. Of course, this was not the only reason that affected my decision, but it did play a role.

That said, I am 100% sure that my parents love me and want nothing but the best for me. Disowning me would have, in their minds, been better than failing to fully note my sin and see me suffer the consequences for it, painful though it might be for them (think Abraham and Isaac - not the same, exactly, but the priciple is there). This was the teaching of their church. I know that, as odd as this sounds, it would have been done out of love and not any sort of ill-will.

"Oops, I notice I called you Diane in the other post...sorry, I keep typing it that way. I always read it Diana though."

That's cool. As long as you're making an effort. :) I really don't know why it bugs me so much. I try to tell myself it's just one letter difference, but for some reason I can't shake the pet peeve. Just one of those things, I guess.

Bethany,

P.S.(Can you do that on a blog?) I apologize for my inability to properly get across what I was thinking and feeling in the course of this discussion. I think that inability, which (if I may be a bit boastful) I'm not really used to, led to frustration which probably made me come off totally wrong. It doesn't help that I came into this totally ticked off about the actions of people who aren't even on this blog (though they've been reflected similarly around here too). I directed way too much hostility toward you that you didn't earn, and I'm not sure I can apologize enough for that. No hard feelings?

Diana, no hard feelings whatsoever. (((((hugs)))))
I'm sorry if I came across to you as uncaring as well.

Just to let you know, I think your parents are very, very wrong, if they would have really intended to disown you for a pregnancy. Even though I can understand what you are saying about why they would do it, I still feel that there is no excuse for that. I think it would be absolutely wrong to reject a child based on a sin...it sends the message that your love for them is conditional, and this is totally unBiblical, as God did not disown us when we were sinners, He loved us despite our sins.

Plus if they would have encouraged you to abort, I really would wonder whether their religious values really existed at all or if it's simply about what others might think of them.

I hope you don't take this as an insult to your parents, I'm sure they mean well, and I am sure they love you. I just wanted you to understand that I would never condone someone disowning their child for any reason.... It's just not right.

My parents never would have encouraged me to abort. They'd probably stop speaking to me if they knew I'd had an abortion, even at this point (they're a lot less scary now then they used to be). It was basically a lose, lose situation there were they to know about the pregnancy at all.

No insult taken. And I appreciate that you disagree with them. I'm happy to find that most christians do. And they're getting over it (the twisted scary sort of christianity). Slowly.

Diana, that is sad that you couldn't turn to your parents. I'm sure you aren't the first girl and you wont be the last. I hate stories like these. I had a good friend who's parents were VERY strict. They were also strict devout Catholics [or so I thought] My girlfriend told her mother that she had become pregnant from a man she barely knew. Her mother paid for her to have an abortion.

oops, I left out the most important point in my post. My friend was 17 at the time, and her mother demanded that she have the abortion.