Raise your hand if you don't think Paul McHugh is actually from Kansas!

*raises hand*

I make a formal request that the United States Department of Justice open an investigation into the Tiller matter.

Notice how Tiller says "Nice day." to the reporter. He is also enjoying a cold drink. How many children has he killed that will never live to see a "nice day" or enjoy a cold soda. This man is such a liar. When did the reporter ever prevent him from getting into his car?

Think of the children in third world countries who also do not get to enjoy cold drinks...because they do not have access to ice or a refridgerator.........
;-)

JK -

What does it matter where McHugh is from? Are you implying that someone outside of Kansas could not view the records as part of an investigation? If this is the case, I think the FBI needs to be informed of this since they bring in specialist from all over the world to help with some of their cases.

Of course the politicans are lying and hiding the truth. This is how they got abortion legal in the first place. Why change tactics now?

No, I was not trying to imply anything about the man's credibility to investigate this case. I've just never heard a Kansan talk with a New York accent before.

Hisman: "I make a formal request that the United States Department of Justice open an investigation into the Tiller matter."

Well golly, HM, that ought to do it. How can such a "formal" request, (buried in an obscure but intereting blog) be denied?

You are truly a hero.

MEMO
Date: June 14, 2007
TO: Pro-choice supporters
From: Sandy
RE: Please explain

Why is NO ONE taking a stance against this from the pro-choice side????

Please someone.....anyone......how can you as
a pro-choice supporter not feel responsible that you are feeding the machine that takes a blind eye to this criminal activity aling with all of the other sick and diguisting documented stories about abortion mills that take place everyday?????

I am sure this guy is a proud card carrying member of NAF and/or NARAL. Has either of these groups ever taken a stance to even suspend or revoke his membership for a year????

It is sad enough that you believe a woman has a right to end the life of an unborn child. How do you reconcile the fact that these mills you support continue to further de-humanize these babies by putting their heads in a refridgerator as a joke (per Bethany's post on another thread)
Or kill a live aborted baby by putting it in a bio-bag and tossing it on the roof top, or employ unlicensed quacks, or send women home with perforated uteruses, or hand out an abortion pill that can kill you.

PLEASE I NEED ANSWERS!!!!

Per Hal:
"Well golly, HM, that ought to do it. How can such a "formal" request, (buried in an obscure but intereting blog) be denied?"

You are truly a hero.

Hal,

What's your great idea??
How dare you criticize anyone for taking a stance against this butcher when you just sit there with your cowardly saracasm pretending like you see nothing and hear nothing.

Oh, that's right. You'd hate to give an abortionist a bad rap. They're all such great guys. You just can't stand the fact that this guy swims in the same sesspool(sp?) that your
own doctor does.

You'd rather ignore what goes on so your "freedom of choice" remains in tact.
I am seriously losing all patience with you people.

Sandy, right on! How come pro-lifers everywhere speak out against Eric Rudolph or others like him, however, we don't see pro-choice advocates everywhere speaking out against Tiller??

I admittedly know little about the man aside from what I've read about him on the internet, which are either positive things from his own clinic's website or biased condemnations from pro-life advocates.

I agree with JK, I don't know enough about this case to "take a stand" against it. If there was something troubling about this doctor, I would have faith in the law enforcement agencies to take care of it. Of course, there is always the possibilty law enforcment doesn't do their job for one reason or another.

This doctor is accused of doing illegal late term abortions. "KS law only allows abortions past 21 weeks if two doctors agree the mother will suffer substantial and irreversiable damage to a major bodily function otherwise." I have no information if Tiller complies with this law or not, do you guys? I don't even know if this law is constitutional, but I assume it has been upheld or everyone wouldn't be so excited about the alleged violations.

Here's a questin for you guys? Why is aborting a 22 week fetus worse than aborting a 4 week fetus? As I understand your position, it's all the same. But you get so riled up about Dr. Tiller. If doctors are harming their patients through neglegence or other malpractice, I'd be glad to speak out. If I do, I hope you'll forgive me if I seek a more appropriate forum then this blog.

JK -

1st - two county judges found reasonable cause to have charges placed against Tiller. Then Kline was voted out and the charges were dropped by a judge that never even looked at the evidence. This is all fact and can be found in numerous kansas newspapers. In particular www.kansas.com

Also - Have you ever heard of people moving? Just curious. I have a northern accent but live in Indiana. My husband has an Irish accent and lives in Indiana. I'm sure there are people who live in Kansas that have a new york accent.

Sandy -

Why would Pro-choice care now? They didn't care when Norma McCorvey and Sandra Cano were manipulated, lied to, and never had a fair chance to be heard in court. Sandra even had to run to another state to avoid being pressured into an abortion when she NEVER wanted one. (Sandra Cano is the Doe in Doe V Bolton. The case that gave any and all health exceptions to abort at anytime during pregnancy. The case that Tiller hides behind.) Pro-Choice has been running away from the very beginning, turning their backs and looking the other way while women are being injured and hurt. All the while waving coat hangers around even though most illegal abortions were and are performed by doctors and not coat hangers.

Hal, Roe v. Wade disallows regulation of abortion in the first trimester. 22 weeks is about the age of viability, and Doe v. Bolton, decided the same day as Roe v. Wade, allowed for regulation post viability.

You said, "I have no information if Tiller complies with this law or not, do you guys?"

That's the point of the investigation. During a specified period of time, Tiller reported he had committed several late-term abortions, which Kline, as the state AG who was supposed to enforce state law - found problematic.

Kline got the abortion records in question - 30 of them, sans patient names - and determined Tiller broke the law, as the psychiatrist assigned to review the charts, McHugh, stated earlier this week.

Hal -

The two doctor requirement in constitutional. Look it up. I have a problem with all abortions, but the reason why we are so upset about this is because Tiller is hurting women. He is lying to them and then violating the law in order to prey on women's fears.

Now, if Tiller worked at a CPC and was telling women abortion was bad, all the pro-choice people would come out of the woodwork. Don't believe me? NARAL has section on their website devoted entirely to the evils of CPC's. Planned Parenthood's website also tells how evil they are. But no one cares about Tiller. He is providing women the "choice" of their life. It doesn't matter who gets hurt in the end, right?

Valerie,

I will look into these newspaper articles, thanks.

You have to know that with the McHugh guy I was just making a joke. I never said or implied that he should be a born and raised native Kansan to investigate this case or anything. I realize that people move (in this case probably from New York) and can hold jobs in states that they are not originally from. I have no beef with Mr. McHugh and if his investigations prove Tiller is guilty of a crime or several different crimes then I will applaud him for a job well done, and subsequently condemn Tiller for his law breaking ways.

I'm sorry if you believed that I was trying to belittle him in any way, because my intent was purely innocent and jovial in nature.

P.S.

Where I'm from, Indiana is in the north

:-)

Per Hal:
"If doctors are harming their patients through neglegence or other malpractice, I'd be glad to speak out. If I do, I hope you'll forgive me if I seek a more appropriate forum then this blog."

"If"????? Where have you been???
Hal, you have a computer. You read the posts on this site. There are plenty of documented cases where there has been malpractice, negligence and crimes committed against patients. Patients have lost their lives trusting these hell holes. They have been lied to, coerced, sexually assaulted. OPEN YOUR EYES TO IT!!!! What ever happened to their motto "keeping abortion safe?"

Have you heard of the the book Lime 5?? Have you heard of the book Blood Money??
Read them both and turn in a book report to this site on what you learned.

I continue to be amazed at how caught up you all are in your "pro-choice" rhetoric that you can't even see the truth for what it is.

Why are you so blind!!!!!!!! or you don't really want to accept the truth so you ignore it.

Aren't you outraged at NAF and NARAL for not taking a public stance against this type of behavior??? You'd think that they would be the first ones in there making sure that patients are at least safe when choosing to end the life of their unborn. You'd think they would make sure Drs. are following state guidlines. But no. The whole creepy group is so corrupted with making money they obviously don't care and don't want to rock the boat.

Since you offered to speak out about it. Here is your chance. Write an open letter to NAF or NARAL and post it on this site too. I challenge you to engage the other pro-choice participants on this site to join you.

I am holding you to it. If you don't you are no better than a coward.
Period. Let's see some action.

Seriously, I will ask again.....how do you continue to support this cause??

Oh, BTW JK, I wouldn't really rely too heavily on the guy's website to "learn" about him.
I don't think he will advertise that he has committed crimes against women and state laws.
It would be bad for business.
Get a clue.

Sandy,

I was referring to the fact that I only saw biased articles from both side about Tiller. i.e. I know that he would only say good things about himself on his own website, and people who run websites about what a scumbag they think he is would only run articles about what a scumbag they think he is.

Here's a questin for you guys? Why is aborting a 22 week fetus worse than aborting a 4 week fetus? As I understand your position, it's all the same. But you get so riled up about Dr. Tiller.

Hal, he's doing something that even pro-CHOICERS should be ashamed and appalled about...he's blatantly breaking the law, killing viable babies who are HEALTHY, and giving HEALTHY women late term abortions, when this is not legal! He is a cold blooded murderer and no one pro-choice is outraged, even though in theory they should be, since they CLAIM that abortions after viability shouldn't be done without a serious health condition to the mother or fetus. Let's see them put their money where their mouth is.

The lack of interest on your side is what is an outrage...Tillers' actions are no worse than any other abortionist's actions...they're all dispicable...but his are also illegal, which should mean he should be spoken out against by your own side as well as ours!

Sandy, a woman who was injured by a incompetent doctor could very easily bring a lawsuit. The state medical boards could very easily discipline a doctor who was not living up to medical practices.

and, of course, law enforcment can investigate criminal activities, such as illegal abortions or sexual assault.

You just don't like that these organizations don't see it your way.

The fact that there may be bad doctors out there doesn't push me in the pro-choice or pro-life direction, any more than bad priests would make me more or less anti-Catholic.

There are a few bad people in every profession. I don't like it, but as I just said, people who are hurt have options.

I do want abortion to remain safe and legal, and I'll up my contibution to Planned Parenthood this year to do my part.

Hal, where in there did you express disgust or disapproval of George Tiller's actions?

Okay, you want to say that you aren't convinced he's really doing these things. Fine. Suppose that everything has been absolutely confirmed to your approval, and you have no doubt it's true. What is your opinion of a doctor that would do such a thing?

I'm not asking you to talk down about your favorite pro-choice organizations or even your own abortion doctor, I'm only asking you what you would think of this particular doctor who was performing illegal abortions on women and healthy viable babies, in the hypothetical situation where you are absolutely sure of the credibility of the claims.

Bethany, he may be breaking the law and he may not be. If it were so "blatent" I'm sure someone in authority in that pretty conservative state would take some action. Lack of action is evidence of corruption or lack of evidence.

Hal, did you listen to the call where the woman from George Tiller's office put the 911 operator on hold, and told them she couldn't tell them WHY they needed to come, just to come, and to please not have any lights or sirens? Does this not sound like evidence that something is going on, in your opinion? What would you think if a pro-life organization did something like this? Unless they had something to hide, why in the world would they ask these things?
Here's the call so you can hear it again:
http://www.smallvictoriesusa.com/Audio/DrTillesOffice.wav

Bethany, I listened to that call. I was expecting some sort of smoking gun. I don't see any evidence of illegal or immoral activity based on this call. It could have been anything, including normal complications which can come from surgical abortion, or a health problem unrelated to abortion, who knows what else. I don't think any medical provider would want an ambulance to show up with lights and sirens, that doesn't shock or concern me by itself.

Is there some context to this tape? Did some woman say she was butchered that day and had to wait a long time for 911 to arrive?

The woman died. From a botched abortion job, I believe. I'll see if I can find that info for you.

Hi everyone! I feel sad that I haven't been on debating much...I have a case of mono that is making me sleep away all my debating time. :-(

Awww..Erin, :-(

I hope you are feeling better!

aww poor Erin :(

Feel better!

Ok, if the woman died (because of negligence--or worse), I hope her estate sues the heck out of Tiller and puts him out of business.

Here is the info: Christin Gilbert

Picture:
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/christinhs.jpg

Here's the 911 transcript:
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/911transcript.jpg

Here's a picture of Christin being placed in the ambulance:
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/jan05b.jpg

Christin's autopsy report:
http://justiceforchristin.com/gallery2.htm

I will second Hal's motion

I third the motion.

Hal, best thing you have said so far.

Per Hal:
"Sandy, a woman who was injured by a incompetent doctor could very easily bring a lawsuit. The state medical boards could very easily discipline a doctor who was not living up to medical practices."

Hal. You obviously don't want to get it. Why should a woman have to be harmed in the first place to take appropriate action?

These places go unregulated unlike other clinics and hospitals that have to meet health code standards set by the medical profession. Obviously there are no standards set by NAF or NARAL to inspect and/or fine any abortionist who is not complying with safe standards for their patients. Just a few examples: Cockroach infested offices, vital signs not being checked, fetuses left in closets, women being sent home with fetal contents left in the uterus.
Would this behavior ever be acceptable to you where you delivered your two healthy babies??

Per Hal
"and, of course, law enforcment can investigate criminal activities, such as illegal abortions or sexual assault."
Not really, as in the case in Florida where the baby was tossed onto the roof, the police wouldn't get involved because "abortion is legal". Also the whole fruccus with the case in this post is that law inforcement tried to do something but was stonewalled by politicians more interested in getting his campaign contributions and getting elected.

Per Hal"
"There are a few bad people in every profession. I don't like it, but as I just said, people who are hurt have options.

OK, so you and your wife had a wonderful experience with you're two abortions (bless their souls), but you are supporting a cause that turns a blind eye to the women who have been harmed. Please.

I do want abortion to remain safe and legal, and I'll up my contibution to Planned Parenthood this year to do my part.

OK. Just as I assumed you would, you only paid lip service. What about your offer to speak out???? Go ahead and keep your eyes shut.

Your solution is to up your donation to an organization that already makes 326,000,000 in profit every year and that pours money into NAF and NARAL so they can fight to keep abortion mills unregulated so they can hurt more women.
You are truly a hero.

Hal, that is all I wanted to hear!

But I do have to say, I wish that the babies were important to you as well.

Sandy, I love your posts! Erin, get well! Tiller is a spineless jellyfish. He'll call 911 for his own safety, but when he killed Christen Gilbert, he told his staff to call 911 but told them NOT to put on their sirens! Say Whaaaa?

The woman was Christin Gilbert. She was 19 and had Down Syndrome.

Here's her story-

Who was Christin A. Gilbert?

Christin Alysabeth Gilbert was born on May 30, 1985 in Austin, Texas, but spent most of her life in the small Texas town of Keller. Christin had Down Syndrome, but that did not stop her from embracing life and living it to the fullest. Christin was raised by her family, which consisted of her mother, father, and sister.

Christin became involved in sports early in her life to help her meet people and make friends. She became very active in the Special Olympics and participated proudly for ten years. In 2003, she won the gold medal in the softball throw.

Christin graduated from the Special Education Program of Keller High School in 2004. While in high school, Christin became the inspirational member of the girl’s softball team, serving as their batgirl. Team members were never allowed to get down during a tough game because Christin would meet them at the dugout with hugs, telling them that she loved them. This kept spirits high and eventually her team won a state championship, something of which Christin and her family were especially proud.

In life, Christin was a joy to be around, and to be near her made one the recipient of her many hugs. She was the center of attention when she walked into a room because of her outgoing and loving spirit.

Christin was loved by all who knew her and her death has left a void in the lives of her family and community. Christin was buried on January 21, 2005, after a private funeral service held in her hometown. In her obituary, Christin was called "one of God’s angels." In April, 2005, the Keller Special Olympics was dedicated to her memory.

What happened to Christin?

Tragically, sometime in 2004, Christin was sexually assaulted. As a result, Christin became pregnant. On January 10, 2005, Christin was brought by her family to Women’s Health Care Services for a third-trimester abortion in her 28th week of pregnancy. There her baby received a fatal digoxin injection to the heart and she was prepared for labor and delivery of her dead child.

Christin was sent to her hotel. The following day, January 11, Christin was taken back to WHCS where the abortion was resumed and a D & C performed. She was again sent back to her hotel, which doubled as both labor and recovery room for Tiller’s abortion business. This hotel was not equipped to handle the life-threatening complications that may result from dangerous third-trimester abortions. There, Christin’s condition began to worsen.

She returned once again to WHCS on January 12, and was diagnosed with "dehydration" although the sepsis was already spreading rapidly through her body. She was given intravenous fluids and sent back to her hotel.

By now, Christin was in serious trouble. She had episodes of vomiting and unconsciousness. According to one physician who reviewed the autopsy report, aspiration of vomitus was the likely cause of her acute bronchopneumonia mentioned in the autopsy report.

Instead of taking her to the hospital, Christin’s family once again took her to WHCS where, according to the autopsy report, "she became unresponsive."

At 8:48 AM on Thursday, January 13, a 911 call was placed by Tiller employee Marguerite Reed, who was evasive with the dispatcher and placed him on hold for 45 critical seconds while she inquired about how much she should tell him. Reed pleaded with the 911 dispatcher, "Please, please, please! No lights, no sirens!" Reed clearly downplayed the true nature of Christin’s rapidly deteriorating condition. Sensing no urgency, emergency responders arrived on the scene at 8:57 AM, a full nine minutes after the call was placed.

Upon arrival, the ambulance crew spent 15 minutes treating Christin’s dire condition, which included cessation of respiration and cardiac arrest, from which she was resuscitated. At 9:14 AM, Christin was transported via ambulance with all haste to Wesley Medical Center’s Emergency Room, and arrived at 9:18 AM after a four minute ambulance ride. Pro-lifers photographed the ambulance and George Tiller’s arrival at the ER.

Once at Wesley Medical Center, the autopsy report showed evidence that the emergency team who treated Christin worked aggressively to save her life, but it was too late. Huge amounts of antibiotics were pumped into her failing body, but to no avail. Because the sepsis was not treated in time, Gilbert suffered from systemic organ failure. All the blood vessels in her reproductive organs were clotted.

Christin was given pain medication, but little else could be done. She was pronounced dead at 4:14 PM, January 13, 2005.

Christin’s unclothed body, with medical implements that had been used in an attempt to save her life still attached, was sent to the Sedgwick County Regional Science Center on January 14 for autopsy. Seven months and ten days later, the report was released to the public with evidence of her botched abortion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6754073.stm

Im fairly sure that this may beat tiller, or at least come close to that level if has been breaking the law as much as been claimed, granted this takes place in India by an unqualified person with improper disposal, but still.

Heather,
Thank you and what a great comparison on the 911 calls.

I think all of you pro-choicers need to read the books I mentioned before:
Lime 5 and Blood Money.

Also, go to the "meet the abortionists" website.
Very interesting.

Dan, that is terrible!

Bethany,

Can you imagine calling 911 in a life threatening emergency and your first concern being whether or not the emergency responders use lights and sirens? I'm sure most of us wouldn't care if they blew a foghorn only that they get to the scene of the emergency and fast.
From this tape, it sounded to me like every effort was also being made to downplay the seriousness of the situation with false and misleading information.
This was the call placed after 40-45 minutes of attempting to resuscitate Christin Gilbert, who had returned to the clinic from the hotel, where her "care" was supervised by an unlicensed clinic worker, and collapsed. Most of us would know enough to call for help immediately, I mean schoolchildren and even family pets have recognized medical emergencies and alerted someone. But it occurs to no one at the clinic to immediately call for help and Marguerite doesn't recognize resuscitation efforts on a patient when she sees them? This is Tiller's supposed "trained" staff?

I totally agree, Mary! To dismiss this tape as nothing is absurd!

By the way, here are some more botched abortions:
http://justiceforchristin.com/gallery3.htm

This was the call placed after 40-45 minutes of attempting to resuscitate Christin Gilbert, who had returned to the clinic from the hotel, where her "care" was supervised by an unlicensed clinic worker, and collapsed. Most of us would know enough to call for help immediately, I mean schoolchildren and even family pets have recognized medical emergencies and alerted someone. But it occurs to no one at the clinic to immediately call for help and Marguerite doesn't recognize resuscitation efforts on a patient when she sees them? This is Tiller's supposed "trained" staff?

Wow, I didn't know they had waited that long to call. That is awful. The "care" these women receive is atrocious.

@Mary: Tiller is a disgrace. I'm guessing that they purposely waited to call, not because they weren't sure if it was an emergency, I'm sure they knew, they were probably told by Tiller *not* to call until x-amount of time passed...and perhaps the reason Marguerite was possibly hesitant on the phone was because she wanted to tell what was happening but she had been trained *not* to and she was doing what he told her to do?

Eh, my two hypothetical cents.

If you guys would like to read more about quack abortionists, go to www.realchoice.blogspot.com The site's owner puts up legal and illegal abortion deaths (almost) daily.

Just curious, meaning no malice, but why did she wait 28 weeks to have the abortion after her sexual assault?

It is lauren, and the fact that they were dumped in a well is just horrifying and scary, not to mention even more unsanitary than the conditions that are already being faced by those living in certain areas of India

oops that link should be

http://realchoice.blogspot.com

JK, I don't think that her parent's realized until then that she was pregnant.

@JK: With Down's Syndrome, perhaps it was more difficult to know whether she was pregnant or not? She probably wouldn't have been able to tell her family that something was wrong, or perhaps she just didn't start "showing" until then?

It depends on whether Christan's rape was reported and she was taken to the hospital in order to have a rape-kit.

My guess would be that they didn't know she had been sexually assaulted until she began showing the pregnancy that late in the game.

They should have done a rape test after she was assaulted. This is all very sad.

Abortionist Leroy Carhart was there as well. 2 abortionists could not save Christen. I think Jill had that 911 tape on here once. I'll see if I can find it. Lauren, thank you for that thorough and prompt report!

Hal,

I read your comment after posting. This tape clearly shows efforts to downplay a life threatening situation. Efforts were being made to resuscitate Christin yet 911 was informed of none of this. I think the majority of us can recognize a resuscitation in progress when we see one, but a Tiller employee couldn't? There was no documentation of the resuscitation at the clinic. another example of substandard care. Medical personnel can be legally hung on this factor alone.

oops we posted at the same time

No problem, Heather. I've been following her case for awhile. It's just so sad.

Also, Kudos to all the pro-choicers on here who are disgusted with these doctors! It is so good to see people who aren't afraid to call a quack a quack!

Erin,

Welcome back! I hope you're feeling better. We have missed you.

Erin, feel better soon! Sorry you're not feeling well.

I will tell you that I am in the medical profession. I have had to do CPR and call ambulances more times than you can shake a stick at. We give out ALL information to dispatchers so the paramedics know what they are walking into. That 911 call was not acceptable.

Well, he obviously wanted to keep it low profile, as there are likely many protestors outside of his clinic on a daily basis. But it obviously backfired as people found out about it anyway.

Thanks for the 911 call Bethany. I saw it after the fact.

Dan, thank you for your post! This just keeps on getting more and more disturbing. Sandy, thanks for the sites. I'm going to look at them tonight.

Sandy, how was LIME 5? I want to buy that book. Here is a site for you Death Roe.com. Click on executioners. The abortionists are exposed.

I have a G-R-E-A-T announcement!!

WE HAVE RAIN (A THUNDERSTORM)!!!

Yay for Alabama!!

Heather,
I can honestly tell you I have only read very little of the content. It was so disturbing to me, I couldn't read much of it. I rarely look at the graphic photos of the babies anywhere they are posted. I just can't. I get way too sad.
The woman who wrote Blood Money spoke at an event in my state several years ago. That book is also so very disturbing.

It would be a great learning tool for all of the pro-choice people who think of this industry as an "honorable profession" that helps women. It should be looked at as a "dirty business" that hurts women because that is exactly what it is.

Yay Alabama!

I thought it was gonna rain here earlier, but no go :-(

hehe, JK, are you a Harry Potter fan too??

harry potter? WOOT

*jumps in to conversation randomly*

cant wait for the next book :D

Yes, I am w00t!

I'll be in Italy when Deathly Hallows comes out, so nobody spoil the ending for me :-)

I assume you've seen my Snape avatar, then

Midnite,

I am jealous. Its hotter than the 7th rung of hell here and no rain in sight. There's nothing I enjoy more than a good thunder crasher. Until then I have to keep watering all my flowers every nite. Ugh.

hahaha, I am OBSESSED w/ Harry Potter. Already have my token voucher for The Deathly Hallows.... But no one to go see Order of the Pheonix with (boo hoo hoo). OMG So EXCITED for Harry Potter this summer!!!

Oh we needed rain so bad.

Hal,

Thanks for the bass ackward compliment coming from a bass ackward aborter of two offspring and defender of a serial killer. You are one head case buddy.

Look Hal. I don't BS, so you'd better perk up your wimp ears.

Now that was just an informal announcement prior to issuing a formal request through my friends Senators John McCain (appointed son to USAF Academy) and Jon Kyle and Congressman John Shadegg (who appointed my son to USN Academy and happens to live in my neighborhood) and Trent Franks, Rick Renzi and Jeff Flake.

I would add JD Hayworth to the list, however, he got beat by some whacko Democrat in November, however, I'll just call him on his rather formidable conservative radio talk show here in Phoenix and plant a few seeds.

Let me ask you a question. How does a man who fathered two children who he aborted celebrate Father's Day?

I ordered it from Barnes and Noble. It will be coming in the mail, which is not as fun as camping out in line, but I will be in Rome, so I might not care.

HisMan:

My friend is running Mcain's campaign in DC.

JK:

I am sooo excited about the next book. Although I must say that the person who died in the Half Blooded Prince angered me to no end and I cried when he died...

@HisMan: Just keep bragging, just keep bragging...how Christian.

@Midnite: I don't think the person who killed that one person isn't actually bad, I think that whole incident was staged by the person who died.

Rae,

I tend to think that too. But why are we talking in code? Is there anyone hear who hasn't read HBP, that greatly desires to do so?

Kathleen Sebelius, Melvin Neufeld,

blood on their hands...

Rae-- "12 week olds get a right to life", "11 week olds don't".

..makes no sense to me.....

wait a minute Rae, what is HBP and who died? I am confused to hell and back. Someone fill me in. And what is HisMan bragging about now

Rae:

I just don't sit and take insults from Hal or you and anyone else. In fact it not Christain or manly to do so.

Hal challenged my ability to ask for a formal congressional investigation into a matter regarding Dr. Tiller. I assure you I can.

By the way, here's a photo showing my affilation with McCain.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z85/hisman_ixoye/McCain.jpg

Midnite,

It's Half Blood Prince, you've read it right?

oh I got confused JK, my bad. Never heard it referred to as HBP. I dunno if anyone here is desiring to read the book or not, I just dont want to ruin it for anyone.

JD Hayworth: great congressman, we could sure use him here in massachusetts..

HisMan, what was it Jesus did? Oh right, turn the other cheek, not fight back...

yet you make it sound as if its against the bible to choose not to fight back, and that its "unmanly"

Oh, I'm in the Hogwarts facebook group, they use the abbreviations a lot :-)

Yes I believe the one that was killed asked the one that killed him to do the killing because the one that was killed knew that the one that was supposed to do the killing would not be able to. Also I believe it is in the one who was killed's master plan to thwart the one who wants to kill everyone.

This is soooo fun :-)

MA, is just fine jasper, least now that Romney's gone.

hahahahaha..... Great secret code. I am in the HOgwarts FB group as well, but I dont visit there that much.

Do you think that the one that was killed in book 5 or the one who was killed in book 6 will come back in book 7?

JK, he will, just not in bodily form

he = book 7, the jurys still out for me on book 5

Dan,

The Mass Family institute got 170,000 thousand signatures to put homosexual marrige on the 2008 ballot (most ever in history). And the Democrat legislature, led by Cadilac Deval Patrick blocked the will of the people to vote on this issue... they know better than us, what arrogance.

Ooooh...in portrait form perhaps for book 6 bucket kicker, and in the the you know what for book 5 bucket kicker?

jasper, they accepted 135,000 of those 170,000 first off.

Next, majority cannot/should not vote on minority rights. Marriage has been declared a fundamental right by the supreme court. Minority rights never go to popular vote.

I wonder why the civil rights act wasnt put to popular vote, hmm? I guess the legislature didnt know better than the American people did then either. Or the desegregation of schools, or any other civil right allowance for that matter. The majority is always right.

and just get over the cadilac, deval is paying for it out of his own pocket.

"Marriage has been declared a fundamental right by the supreme court."

Yes, "marriage is a evolving paradigm" as Lead Justice Margret Marchell put it.

This is not a civil rights issue Dan. Homosexuals can marry, just not someone from the same sex. It's not marriage. Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman, and no court can change that. It will never really be marrige.

def. Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

jasper, want to know how much that definition has changed? The definition of marriage has ALWAYS been flexible and has changed CONSTANTLY

it went from man and woman of same race, religion, social class, etc. to what it is now, between ANY man and ANY woman provided they can engage in a legally binding contract

And it is a civil rights issue the way im seeing it.

If you want to stretch it you could call it a bias against gender, it just happens each gender is biased differently.

jasper, it will never be marriage according to you, but according to the state of MA, it has been marriage for something like 4 years now.

@HisMan: To be quite frank, good for you for being all buddy-buddy with John McCain. I quite like McCain, I think he's a sensible man, but you do appear to be bragging when you namedrop all those "important people". Sure, fantastic that you know these people, but who cares? Have any of them really taken what you say to heart? Have any of them asked your opinion or advice on a specific issue? Please correct me if I'm wrong and if this has in fact happened.

@Jasper: And once again, spectacular job of taking what I say out of context. And to think that you could be a reasonable, sensible, mature adult. I shan't make that mistake again.

Dan,

Are you trying to say that Christians are not supposed to be engageged in the battle of moral issues?

I consider myself to be at war my friend.

Am I being attacked PHYSICALLY? If someone slugged me, I am commanded not to retaliate. Or are we talking about moral issues here.

If someone challenges my Christian moral values, i.e., that abortion is not murder, I am commanded to fight back with every ounce of my intellect and being using God's Word which is the SWORD of the SPIRIT.

If you really knew who Jesus was you wouldn't even have brought up that sorry turn the other cheek stuff in the context of this site, which is really a debate site on abortion.

Jesus is not some wimpy, blond-haired, blue-eyed, effeminate looking guy as portrayed by so many so called church portraits. He was man's man.

It's no wonder that most men can't stomach the false Jesus. If they knew who He really was, they wouldn't be able to resist Him. I mean He merely commanded some burly fisherman to follow Him and they dropped everything. Can you imagine what kind of man that would have taken. I guarantee you, not some wimp.

He was a dark-haired, olive skinned Jew, with with rough hands and the body of a carpenter who didn't use a Black and Decker circular saw to cut wood.

The man was literally beat to a pulp on the cross and took every ounce of it.

And you nor anyone else is gonna force me into some politically correct BS corner of conformity while your side murders innocent children. I would die for my faith.

Bring it on.

Rae: "Jasper: And once again, spectacular job of taking what I say out of context. And to think that you could be a reasonable, sensible, mature adult. I shan't make that mistake again."

what I did I take out of context?

you believe that 12 week-olds have the right to life, but 11 week-olds don't. You just told me this yesterday Rae!

wow...

@HisMan: I'm not trying to be rude, I'm really not, but what on earth is it with your obsession with "manliness" over being "effeminate"? Why do you constantly feel you need to prove your worth by showing off how "manly" you are? I'm truly curious as to why you have this thing for machismo (and I don't mean machismo in the normal sense, but instead in "Christian machismo" if you catch my drift...).

Do you think my father is "effeminate" as he cooks better than my mom? Is he effeminate because he is a human resource manager, a person who is more interested in interpersonal conflicts and resolutions, a job that is actually female dominated in the business world? Is my dad effeminate because he told me and my brothers that it is ok to express our emotions and our feelings without being called a "wimp" or a "pansy"? Is my dad a effeminate because he doesn't force his beliefs on his children and allowed us to grow and mature in our own way, gaining our own outlook on the world and our own beliefs in politics and what not?

I am genuinely wondering about this, and I humbly ask you to take what I say and give a heartfelt, honest answer.

Thank you.

And my Grandmother is good friends with Billy Graham, so HA!!

Dont think anyone will care, but since we're "name dropping and all"

@Jasper: No, that is not what I said. I said that I am against abortions beyond 12 weeks. So even 12 week fetuses are "at risk". So no, that is not what I said, and you really randomly stated that, any reason why you felt the need to say this other than to just be annoying?

his man, about immoral activities, He told the disciples to simply shake off their sandals at the edge of town and move onward. They recognized it was the responsibility of the people to freely accept god's word or reject it and risk damnation. He did not fight, he simply said this is what could happen, take it or leave it. He did not fight for followers, He simply spoke and others followed or did not believe, and it was left at that.

And we were all getting along so well the other day.

HUMPH

How fast the winds can change.

You have a point Dan, a very good one indeed.

Rae: "No, that is not what I said. I said that I am against abortions beyond 12 weeks. So even 12 week fetuses are "at risk". So no, that is not what I said, and you really randomly stated that, any reason why you felt the need to say this other than to just be annoying?"

Oh, I thought you said 12 week-olds did have a right to life? Ok, they don't? Do they or don't they Rae, which is it??? I'm being honest. Just say "No, they don't have a right to life in my book" if you believe abortion is ok for a 12 week old.

Come on People.

BE HAPPY

IT RAINED IN THE HEART OF DIXIE TODAY :-)

Per Hal:
"If doctors are harming their patients through neglegence or other malpractice, I'd be glad to speak out. If I do, I hope you'll forgive me if I seek a more appropriate forum then this blog."

Hal,
You have been given many opportunities to educate yourself to know that this is happening.
Especially on this site.

So where did you go big talker??
Can't put your money where your mouth is??
Oh, that's right. You are giving more of your money to PP.

What a phony.

I give up. I think it is a lost cause tonight. I shall celebrate alone

i have other reasons to celebrate midnite, so I shall join thee.

"Come on People.

BE HAPPY

IT RAINED IN THE HEART OF DIXIE TODAY :-)"

it's to bad the victims of abortion couldn't experince that happiness Midnite...

Wait what happened?

Fine Jasper, to appease you (as I know you'll never let it go and you'll nag me about it worse than my mom nags me about cleaning my room), no, I don't believe a 12 week old fetus has an inherent right to life. Happy? Care to misquote me or twist the words and make it say, "No, I don't believe [insert minority group] has an inherent right to life?".

ok hal so first you make a snid remark that HisMan and his speaking out will be lost and making fun of him for doing so.

So... he tells you why and how he will be heard and who he has access to in politics. Then he is accussed of name dropping, just can't please some of you people. Ridiculous! give it up!!

Far as I know HisMan isn't beating you and dragging you until you turn Pro-life. Maybe I'm wroong though!

"Far as I know HisMan isn't beating you and dragging you until you turn Pro-life. Maybe I'm wroong though"

the only thing that makes that statement unstrue is the fact that the vast majority of us havent turned pro-life, though it seems most of his attacks he posts seem to have that goal in mind, despite the attacks having the opposite affect.

@Midnite: I'll celebrate with you! Hooray! There is now rain in Alabama!

*dances*

Rae, thanks for the honesty. Can you open your heart now and give the 12 week old rights that a 13 week old has? please? the 12 week old will be 13 weeks old very shortly...

wow, why haven't you called the police? he should not be beating you!

wow, why haven't you called the police? he should not be beating you!

@Jasper: *sigh* Nice try, but my heart is plenty open. Just thought I'd point out that though that even strictly Catholic countries like Portugal and Spain allow abortions within the first 12 weeks.

verbally 5kids, but it comes through a "religious sense" and is therefor ok because he is trying to save us all, and he is simply "warning" us of the consequences of our actions/beliefs

Ok guys, do you want your faith in humanity restored?

Our best refridgerator died somewhere in the sewage overflow. (I don't think it was connected to that, just a "happy" coincidence)

Anyways, I mention to our friends who we do bible study with that it'll have to be pizza if we use our house.

Well, they come to our house with 4 bags of frozen goodies to replace our loss.

I was literally dumbfounded.

Then my friend gave me a bracelet she made in memory of the baby we just loss. I broke down.

Thank God for our friends! I just thought you guys would all like to hear a bit of *good* news today!

thats great lauren! another piece of good news to add to my thoughts :D

@Lauren: I'm glad your you have such thoughtful, kind friends. :) You are truly fortunate and I'm happy for you. ^_^

ok, "best refridgerator" should just read "refridgerator" I was going somewhere else with that statement and forgot to delete!

Actually, I guess it wouldn't be *that* false to say "best refridgerator" if you consider the fact that we do have a tiny 12 inch dorm fridge in garage.

Where is my mind today?

It's amazing how much a blessing friendships can be.

That is good news Lauren.

Hal,

You say abortion is okay because no one is breaking the "law". It's legal. That's your criteria for why it isn't murder, and why it's moral. Men and women who have abortions should be left alone because they are not breaking any laws. We don't care about the law, we know it is wrong, but you and the "Law" override what we think.

By the same token, the law in Kansas says that you can't abort past 22 weeks. Whether the law is constitutional or not really doesn't matter. We don't think abortion is constitutional because it attacks the right to life. But tough luck for us because constitutional or not, the law says you can abort.

Tiller has broken the law. Period. By your own reasoning it doesn't matter whether or not it is constitutional or whether or not you think it is right. The bottom line is it's AGAINST THE LAW.

Tell me, does it sting when the tables are turned?

grow up Dan!

just a lot of whining!

Now, now folks, we've been getting along so well these past few days...

ha 5kids, tell that to HM when he has a fit because we tell him hes bragging, and then goes on to prove that the relation exists as if he has a complex of somekind.

I could care less. HM frustrates me on occasion, but whats more fun is just seeing how he reacts when we all show that we basically dont care or just prove him wrong.

Thanks Dan and Rae.

Jasper,

I am sorry that a stage 3 drought in Alabama doesnt pull at your heart. You know our crops and cattle are suffering and losing $ out the @ss. But I forgot you dont care about the living.

(and I was in a good mood until he opened his mouth)

oh and 5 kids, you brought it up, I simply explained it. Not so sure that constitutes as "whining"

np midnite.

Yeah, thats typically how it works though, he jumps into the conversation and does his best to aggravate the *insert "power word" here* out of us.

Well Midnite,

You're always saying that it's not murder because to be murder you have to have three things. One of them was breaking the law.

Well, is this murder or not?

MK, i really dont want to join this argument full on, but until he is convicted by a jury of his peers in the eyes of the legal system he is only a suspect, and his rights can only temporarily be restricted, and thus would not be considered "murder" by the standards you are talking about until he is convicted of breaking that individual law, which has yet to occur

"Jasper,

I am sorry that a stage 3 drought in Alabama doesnt pull at your heart. You know our crops and cattle are suffering and losing $ out the @ss. But I forgot you dont care about the living."

care about the living? was he living Midnite:

http://prolifetraining.com/AbortionPictures/22-Weeks.htm

first of all, he wasn't bragging, he was explaining his actions and how he has some access, you called it bragging

"tell that to HM"

that sounds like my 5 years old daughter!

MK, Jasper-

I have no eartly clue what y'all are talking about. Is who a murderer exactly?

Jasper,

Lovely photo, part of your personal collection? I am not talking about abortions either. I was staing a fact that the drought is taking a toll, financially and physically on the adults in Alabama. It is even hitting my business (limousines).

But I have already been born, so it doesnt matter if I starve, lose money, or cant pay my bills, right??

5kids, you are doing the same thing here that many others due, you only acknowldege the faults of the "enemy" but refuse to look back at yourself or those on your side. You are defending HM when I dont feel I hve even insulted him, and if I have it hasnt been that severely, yet you come after me as if you are trying to trap me in a lie so that i can be convicted of some crime or something.

and just to let you know "tell that to "insert name here"" is in common use in pretty much everytown in my area. Im sorry that you apparently find that expression immature, but thats just how we talk around here. Rather than flip out, we point out paradoxes or people who are being ignored that are doing the same thing. Its how it works.

Though if you want to get in a battle over immaturity, look at it this way. You're a mother of 5 picking a fight with a 17 year old because he doesnt have the same idealogies you do and is willing to say what he thinks.

"the vast majority of us havent turned pro-life, though it seems most of his attacks he posts seem to have that goal in mind, despite the attacks having the opposite affect."
verbally 5kids, but it comes through a "religious sense" and is therefor ok because he is trying to save us all, and he is simply "warning" us of the consequences of our actions/beliefs"

this sounds like whining to me.

"we all show that we basically dont care"

then why are you here, on a PRO-LIFE website!!

wow Dan I didn't realize I was dealing with a 17 year old, I understand a lot more of what is going on in the conversation now!

luv: seriously wouldnt you get BORED debating back and forth with people who AGREE with you? I dont think I'd waste my time.

But you are picking on him FYI

so because you couldnt find an issue with my latest post you had to backtrack, fine by me.

5kids, you said something, apparently misunderstanding what i had said, that was an explanation, not whining, so that you could better understand what as going on.

as for the second piece, you quoted me out of context, i said show him we basically dont care, as in, what HM thinks of us. perhaps i was too vague, or perhaps you misread, either way you now what was meant by that.

Not to mention i have every right to go to whichever website i choose, so long as I abide by the rules of the page, which I have done thus far, as difficult as its been at times.

Midnite,

Personally, I think it was that video of a raindance that I posted! :)

Happy Day for You!

Midnite,

I'm asking if you think Tiller is a murderer since he performed illegal abortions...the post, remember?

And yet she wouldnt have known your age if you hadnt told her.

5kids, if you are trying to dismiss me because of my age, please dont. I have never hidden my age, HisMan, Jill, and everyone else knows how old I am and how most of my thought process works. Many actually still hope to convert me because I am open minded and willing to look at new ideas. I may be young, but it appears, at least by a good number of people (I like to think a majority, though im unsure of that) on this site, I am listened to and respected, and am debated with intelligently and respectfully

and thank you midnite for pointing that out, at least I know others see it too :)

oh MK, sorry I didnt actually read it. I tried but my tv show (the starter wife) distracted me.

Wow, the conversation turned hostile whilst I was watching Scrubs and Studio 60!

"But I have already been born, so it doesnt matter if I starve, lose money, or cant pay my bills, right??"

No, of course not Midnite, how come the drought effected your limo business?

i know midnite. That makes me feel a bit of pride in myself because I'd assume that means Im presenting myself well overall ;)

if i was picking a fight i'd be on a pro-abort website!

Where are you?

eh JK, only between me and 5kids. Not too big a deal, shes just having fun picking on lil ol' me.

I wouldnt have known. But I dont care (but not everyone thinks the way I do). And I love ya honey ;-)

5kids. I simply made a simplre response to a general comment you made. You misunderstood it, so I explained it. You then slowly drew me out, becoming more and more hostile towards me. I did not pick the fight, you started the hostility. Go back and read your posts, you drew me out, not vice versa.

aww thanks midnite (assuming your talking to me).

Well, I should probably be off, its about 1115 and i have finals, gnight to all of you, and have a nice day tomorrow :)

Jasper,

There is a mandatory water conservation here. We can not wash the vehicles and make them look "shiny and nice" like we normally do. Therefore no one is wanting to rent a limousine covered in bird $h*t. So we're losing business too. Therefore, I might have to take a pay cut until the crap ends.

and Luv: They're not pro abort websites (in fact I dont think any exist). You might find a pro choice web site though.

Dan,

Forgive 5kids as she is newer here and didn't know your age. I don't think she means that because you are young you should be dismissed.

Truth be told when I read you disgust for Tiller earlier I thought I was reading from yet another "Dan"!

This is because you are so open-minded. You were the first pro-choicer here (followed by Rae) to voice your concerns over Tiller and neither of you waited to bullied into it either.

Kudos to you both! This shows that you are really engaged and listening, not just spouting. I love your posts Dan. Keep em coming. You are right tho, we do all believe that sooner or later you will come over to the pro-life side, because of us or in spite of us, maybe sooner, maybe later..but we are rooting for you! Sorry.

@JK: I quit watching Scrubs this season, did it improve at all? Did they finally stop focusing on the Turk/Carla/Baby storyline (it was soooo annoying...)?

Yes Dan my dear, I was speaking of you

dan, i didn't tell you that you couldn't be here, just asked why you're here if your going to complain about hisman's comments. I think cameron is an idiot so I just ignore him, don't even respond, it's useless. If you are feeling those things about HM than ignore him! I don't think he will mind.

I didn't backtrack, it just explains to me why I feel the way I feel about the comments made.

maybe they should be called "pro--choice-to-abort"
websites.

MK,

I thought you were on vacation this week? cancelled?

haha, really not funny. I have said millions of times I wouldnt have an abortion unles I was raped or my life was in danger. And for the record, Tiller is a sick man.

JK -

Sorry for not getting back to your question sooner. My husband decided at the last minute to go out to eat and then shopping. I wasn't complaining!

You asked where in Indiana I live. Near Indianapolis. Love it! I get the country feeling but not to far from all the shopping I want! ;-)

As for more information on Tiller - go to my blog by clicking on my name and type Tiller in the search part. I have a couple posts on him. I try to use non-biased sources for my posts. That may be a beginning to researching if you still wanted to.

Erin - I hope you feel better.

To all - sorry I havent' been on here much. My son is not in school this summer and he can be a handful if his routine changes. I am trying to read what I can, but I can't read all responses. I am a very slow reader! I think I may have missed some questions directed to me, I am not ignoring anyone. ;-) I miss being on here everyday!

Jasper,

I have to get up at 3:00am to catch the flight...have no idea what I'm doin' on here and not sleeping...can someone say "addiction"?

Anyway, I'll be gone until the 29th...I'll miss the heck out of you guys. ALL OF YOU. Well, maybe not Smaug. But even Cameron!

Be good, don't tease the lemmings, let me know if Johnny Depp stops by, be kind to Jill, go easy on HisMan and Jasper, eat olives, dance in the rain and above all stick around and don't forget me!

"You asked where in Indiana I live. Near Indianapolis."

Indianapolis colts... booooo

New England Patriots .... yaaaayyy

Hi Valerie, my son can be tough too, especially at bedtime.

There was seriously a massive black spider on my bed just now...

*shudders*

Rae,

Catch him. He'll go great with the olives on the pizza. mmmmmm...big fats spiderersies!

@MK: Too late...I squished him with my organic chemistry textbook (it was large...heavy and jam packed with KNOWLEDGE!). The spider is now nothing more than a li'l grease spot at the end of my bed (which is kinda gross).

oooohhhhh, my precious....mmmmmyyyyy preeeeeeeecious. You killed my preeeeccccioooous!

You could at least have used "Sting"!

Oh well, maybe next time.
Did you see where I asked if you were my daughter?
Johnny, Pirates, Dogs, Monty? I love you, I want to marry you?

You know the Wizard of Oz, Rae?

Well, while I'm in Florida I'll miss everyone, but I think I'll miss you most of all! My wittle scarecrow.

gotta, gotta, gotta go to bed!

Valerie,
I'll be sure to check out your blog!

Indianapolis Colts....boooo......New England Patriots.....boooo....Cincinnati Bengals.....yay!

WHO DEY!

Rae,
They're showing reruns now, I hadn't really been paying attention to it this season either. This one wasn't about Turk/Carla/Baby but about JD having two appletinis and getting arrested for DUI for walking his scooter home. :-)
Studio 60 has been really good, especially these last few weeks. Its a shame that they wouldn't renew it :-(

MK,

Have a safe trip, and have fun at Disney!

The law Tiller is supposed to have broken is unconstitutional anyway. Bans on late-term abortion are required to have an exception for the patient's health.

You right-to-lifers lost the last election, partly because of this issue. Kansans voted to have their state government leave Tiller alone. It's childish to expect this nonsense to continue.

Rae,

I know it's hard these days for some women to bear a man who is not afraid to speak the truth and label him as macho. I guess Jesus was macho then because he called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, the money changer in the Temple thieves and Peter himself satan. The Apostle Paul didn't have trouble mincing words either when it was called for.

Real men speak the truth at all times in all cases when it is called for. On this site when such twisted morality is being spewed, it so happens that most of the time I am compelled to speak, and tha offensively. How kind do you think it will be for someone to hear from God Himself, "Depart from me you doers of iniquity into the eteranl lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels". I don't want anyoe to hear thise terrible words. So I speak the truth.

Real men are not afraid to offend in the context of the truth, that is, not intending to offend but not worried that the the truth they speak may offend and thus not speak it.

Most politicians and preachers today are wimps as they have been brow beat by Mother Political Correctness, unless such can hide behind the racism skirt and say anything they want, i.e. Al Sharpton. I can't imagine a white guy getting away with some of the utter stupidity that comes out of his mouth.

I am not afraid to call people who support or perform or who have had abortions murderers just as I would call someone who killed a born a murderer because that's what they are.

Words mean things and I choose to use them as they were intended and not to obfuscate their meaning such as the use of the term "pro-choice" which is the biggest crock bought hook, line and sinker by mine and your generations.

Dear Mr Smaug,

I'll repeat for you my reply to Hal as I believe it addresses your response as well...

You say abortion is okay because no one is breaking the "law". It's legal. That's your criteria for why it isn't murder, and why it's moral. Men and women who have abortions should be left alone because they are not breaking any laws. We don't care about the law, we know it is wrong, but you and the "Law" override what we think.

By the same token, the law in Kansas says that you can't abort past 22 weeks. Whether the law is constitutional or not really doesn't matter. We don't think abortion is constitutional because it attacks the right to life. But tough luck for us because constitutional or not, the law says you can abort.

Tiller has broken the law. Period. By your own reasoning it doesn't matter whether or not it is constitutional or whether or not you think it is right. The bottom line is it's AGAINST THE LAW.

Tell me, does it sting when the tables are turned?

No, MK, I'm not impressed with your post. I don't say abortion is "okay" because it's legal; I say it should remain legal because it is a fundamental human right (for females). So you see you are wrong from the beginning.

Smaug,

...And I say it is NOT a fundamental human right from the beginning. But since it is legal, I just have to live with it.

You say it IS a fundamental human right from the beginning (for females-tho I have no idea why we should get "special" rights - debate for another time perhaps) but abortion past 22 weeks in Kansas is NOT LEGAL. So you just have to live with it.

If you read the post you'd know that I said I wasn't arguing fundamental rights or constitutionality...just the fact that it is illegal. Period.

What you "say" doesn't really matter. Just like what I "say" doesn't really matter.

My point was, the tables have turned, and the law does not come down on the side of what you believe, just like the Roe Vs Wade doesn't come down on what I believe...

But that was a nice try.

MK, know you're gone already and hope you are having a wonderful time, but I felt it'd be proper to respond :)

There's nothing to forgive, mistakes happen and information isnt always known, I understand that, that was simply perceived from what I thought to be the "tone" (which can be so hard to detect on the 'net sometimes) of her writing. It may very well have been a misinterpretation on my part.

To the rest I simply say that I won't be making it easy on you nor do I plan on converting any time soon ;)

You seem to think it doesn't matter whether or not a law is constitutional. I assure you it does.

Tiller will not be charged, he will not spend any time in jail or even have his license suspended.

And all over America, people will look at the right-to-lifers and say, Thank God THESE guys aren't in charge any more! Just as they did in Kansas.

SoMG, I believe the age of viability is 21 weeks, after which states can legislate abortion, making that law perfectly fine in the realm of constitutionality at this point

Smug,

When I get back we can discuss whether or not abortion is a constitutional right. I'm not arguing that. Again, this post is about legalities. And Tiller broke the law. Are you purposely being obstinate? You're far to intelligent to expect me to believe that you don't understand that I'm not talking about whether it is right, wrong, constitutional or anything else. Only that it is ILLEGAL, and Tiller has broken the law.

Sorry your hero might have to be exposed for what he is...

see ya MK! have a nice trip!

Dan,

Thanks for the well wishes...plane leaves at 9:00am so I'm trying to feed my addiction as long as I can...

I hope you don't make it easy, as when you convert I want it to last. If it were easy it wouldn't be sincere! If it were easy, everyone would do it.

As Chesterton says: Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; Rather it has been found difficult and left untried!

Somg, do you live in a bubble?

MK, Have a safe flight and a great time! You shall be missed. Addiction is the word.

SMOG -

"The law Tiller is supposed to have broken is unconstitutional anyway."

Wrong - the law is constitutional.

"Bans on late-term abortion are required to have an exception for the patient's health. "

What part of - "KS law only allows abortions past 21 weeks if two doctors agree the mother will suffer substantial and irreversiable damage to a major bodily function otherwise."
is confusing you? I will be more than happy to explain. There IS a health exception. Two doctors must agree. And why is this do you ask? So Dr.'s cannot take advantage of women at a very difficult time in their lives. (Just like what Tiller is doing, hmmm...) If the mother's life is at risk she can have an abortion. If she has serious psychiatric problems, she can have an abortion. Two doctors must agree that these two conditions must be met. This is the policy in many states and also the policy in many European countries. Why? Because of Dr's like Tiller.

SMOG -

"The law Tiller is supposed to have broken is unconstitutional anyway."

Wrong - the law is constitutional.

"Bans on late-term abortion are required to have an exception for the patient's health. "

What part of - "KS law only allows abortions past 21 weeks if two doctors agree the mother will suffer substantial and irreversiable damage to a major bodily function otherwise."
is confusing you? I will be more than happy to explain. There IS a health exception. Two doctors must agree. And why is this do you ask? So Dr.'s cannot take advantage of women at a very difficult time in their lives. (Just like what Tiller is doing, hmmm...) If the mother's life is at risk she can have an abortion. If she has serious psychiatric problems, she can have an abortion. Two doctors must agree that these two conditions must be met. This is the policy in many states and also the policy in many European countries. Why? Because of Dr's like Tiller.

Sorry, I had to leave yesterday and actually get some work done. I will also be gone most of today.

Before I go, I need to respond to my old friend Hisman (he's been trying to be "firm" with me as I'm very much like a lost little boy) (MK thinks he loves me though):

"However, apparently tLet me ask you a question. How does a man who fathered two children who he aborted celebrate Father's Day?"

Well, I'm really looking forward to spending the day with my two girls. My oldest asked what present I would like, and we agreed that washing the car together would be fun and rewarding. Then, maybe a little cookout. We've been so busy at the end of the school year, we'll probably have a pretty quiet day. But I'll be basking in the love of the two most important people in my life.

You have plans too?

"If she has serious psychiatric problems, she can have an abortion. Two doctors must agree that these two conditions must be met"

so, do we know if the women having abortions late term from Dr. Tiller had two doctors agreeing they met the conditions?

Everyone says he performs illegal late term abortions. How do we know. One psychiatrist apparently offered the opinion the psychiatric problems were not serious, do others disagree? I imagine much of this is subjective.

Hal, the second doctor was a woman who had her license taken away in her home state if I recall correctly. She later came forward and claimed that she was simply a rubber stamp and that they were performing illegal abortions.

The redacted patient records were combed over by a team of psychiatrists who agreed that there were not psychiatric grounds for abortion.

30 "criminal" charges is a typical Jill typical hyperbole. They were 30 "misdemeanor" charges, and not for late term abortion violations,a typcial Jill missreprestation, they were because the abortions were supposedly conducted on minors.

Kline's a powermonger, bending the law and common sense at every opportunity in order to advance himself politically. Everything he does, he does for attention, and he’s playing you all like bunch of puppets.

His cases are thrown out because he doesn’t follow the simplest legal protocols, like sharing evidence with defense attorneys and judges. He does this because he doesn’t have any case at all. It’s all smoke and mirrors. When it all collapses on itself he screams foul play based on character accusations, not unlike some twits here on Jill’s blog.

Just of few examples of Klines scrupleless nature; He takes credit for a rape conviction (Estrada), he claims resulted from his records witch hunt. Kline had no involvement in the prosecution. Currently, a leaked memo indicates he is breaching separation of church and state by encouraging churches to set up campaign committees for him .

So HisMan, what's the difference between a 'real man' and a 'real woman'? Are they charactarized in the same way? If so, why don't you characterize it as a 'good person'? The fact that you are so drastically gender-centric and use men who are 'effeminate' as insults, make me and Rae question your tolerance of men who can be in tune with their feelings or who prefer not to advocate violence. That's the issue, I believe, not what your version of 'truth' is.

Hal -

Why is this concept so hard for you? Two Sedgwick county judges found probable cause for charges to be files against Tiller. Doesn't this tell you something? The charges were dismissed by Judge Paul W. Clark, who by the way received maximum contrabutions for his re-election campaign in 2004 from a law firm that represents Tiller and Sedgwick county DA Nola Foulston. Foulton is the one who requested the charges be dropped.

A good portion of Morrison election campaign was focused on Kline "trumping up charges" against Tiller. Well, now that Morrison has all the evidence he has become silent. He keeps telling us that he will have a decision on whether or not charges will be filed in a few weeks. The first time he said that was 11 weeks ago. If he files charges, then his whole election campain comes into question. If he doesn't file charges and someone else reviews the evidence they will find that charges should have been filed.

Now, Judge Clark threw out the charges without reviewing the evidence. A 7 member panel on the Commission of Judicial Qualifications concluded that Clark was within his rights to do that. However, one of the members is an attorney for ........ yep... Tiller!

Tiller has his hands in many politicians pockets.

oh - Tiller is the only Doctor at the practice and no Doctor has come forward stating they reviewed any cases of Tiller's. Wonder how he got the second opinion?

My information comes from:

LJWorld.com
WIBW.com - Kansas NBC channel
foxnews.com
Kansas.com - The Wichita Eagle

These are all unbiased sources.

Gosh Val,

Love the your selective memory. Clark was also the judge who denied Tiller's trespassing case against operation rescue.

they're not in cahoots.

By Gregory Koukl:

The Intolerance of Tolerance.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GregoryKoukl/2006/12/14/the_intolerance_of_tolerance

Erin: "The fact that you are so drastically gender-centric and use men who are 'effeminate' as insults, make me and Rae question your tolerance of men who can be in tune with their feelings or who prefer not to advocate violence."

I question your tolerance of HisMan...

The Intolerance of Tolerance:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GregoryKoukl/2006/12/14/the_intolerance_of_tolerance

Rae: "Is my dad a effeminate because he doesn't force his beliefs on his children and allowed us to grow and mature in our own way."

well yes, kind-of Rae....

jasper, I honestly dont see how that's effeminate.

and on top of not understanding, isnt it traditional that religious beliefs, which is how you all get your personal morals, traditionally pass through the mother, not the father? So wouldnt it be "manly" of him to let the woman pass on beliefs? What Im seeing seems a bit contradictory to me.

Ugh, gender stereotyping. Biggest turn off EVER.

@Jasper: Why is that effeminate? My dad is willing to debate our opinions and he does so, but he doesn't browbeat us or force us to think as he does (though he is pretty ambivalent on most things).

WTF??

Translation: Your intolerance of my intolerance makes my intolerance right and your tolerance wrong.

Cameron, 9:57a, you know when you challenge me you have to apologize. You said, "30 'criminal' charges is a typical Jill typical hyperbole. They were 30 'misdemeanor' charges, and not for late term abortion violations,a typcial Jill missreprestation, they were because the abortions were supposedly conducted on minors."

1. Be they misdemeanor or felony charges, they're still criminal, Cam.

2. Kline originally sought charges against Tiller in 2 areas: illegal late-term abortions and nonreporting of minor abortions. By the time his requests for subpoeanas made it through the courts, he only had a few weeks left in office and he stopped pursuing the minor charges.

3. Remaining are 30 charges on 15 files, 2 counts per file: 1 for illegal late-term abortions and 1 for failure to accurately report reason for late-term abortions.

Jasper, have you been in the wacky weed? Methinks the definition of effiminate has escaped you. I have absolute faith, however, that your capabilities will return presently and you can engage in decent debate...maybe....

Cameron, did I hear you ask to see all 30 charges? Ok.

http://operationrescue.org/pdfs/completecomplaint.PDF

I wouldn't say that not passing on beliefs is "effeminate".

As a woman, I find that a bit offensive. It seems to imply that feminine=bad. I don't think that's what Jasper means, but it's how it immediately seemed to me.

@Lauren: That's how I see it too, which is why it bothers me when Jasper and HisMan throw around "manliness" as a complement and "un-manliness/effeminate-ness" as insults.

"1. Be they misdemeanor or felony charges, they're still criminal, Cam."

Essentially you're equivocating and inflating. When someone uses the words "criminal charges" it ussually suggests a serious offense and invokes jury and such. People who are ticketed for speeding and such are not typically reffered to as "criminals."

"2. Kline originally sought charges against Tiller in 2 areas: illegal late-term abortions and nonreporting of minor abortions. By the time his requests for subpoeanas made it through the courts, he only had a few weeks left in office and he stopped pursuing the minor charges. 3. Remaining are 30 charges on 15 files, 2 counts per file: 1 for illegal late-term abortions and 1 for failure to accurately report reason for late-term abortions."

My bad... can't keep all the frivolous charges straight.

"2. Kline originally sought charges against Tiller in 2 areas: illegal late-term abortions and nonreporting of minor abortions. By the time his requests for subpoeanas made it through the courts, he only had a few weeks left in office and he stopped pursuing the minor charges."

Our bads. it's both then.

No, not "our bads." I never brought minor abortions into this post for the reason you indicated... too complicated. You did. I've just discussed the ongoing charges.

Apology, as always, accepted.

Rae, [off topic for a sec.] Did you kill that spider? I am TERRIFFIED of spiders! I scream like a lunatic when I see one. All this man/woman talk. I've got to call on my man to come kill it! LOL!

Cameron, *clapping* Nice to see you admitted that you were wrong. Yankee to Yankee.

Erin "Ugh, gender stereotyping. Biggest turn off EVER."

SamathaT "Jasper, have you been in the wacky weed?"

Cam "WTF??"

Rae: "That's how I see it too, which is why it bothers me when Jasper and HisMan throw around "manliness" as a complement and "un-manliness/effeminate-ness" as insults."

#########################

All,

Now that you're all into "tolerance" here. Please try to be tolerant of my views. A Dad who doesn't try to influence good moral behavoir and disipline to his children, or if Christian and doesn't try to teach his children about Christ and to follow Him, I believe is responsible for neglect.

"No, not "our bads." I never brought minor abortions into this post for the reason you indicated... too complicated. You did. I've just discussed the ongoing charges."

I thought I had deleted that.

I looked at one source, and wrote that, then looked for additional sources and found that the one source was misrepresenting. Not you, so not "our" bad.

So.... to reiterate... My bad.

@Jasper: What makes you think my dad didn't try to influence good behavior and discipline his children? My dad is quite authoritarian when it comes to discipline and and making sure we are on our best behavior. Growing up, my parents always got complements with how well their children were in public because we didn't scream and whine at stores nor did we cry and throw fits in church or at restaurants. Even now people *still* complement my parents at how well raised my brothers and I are.

Just because my dad doesn't force his political beliefs and values upon his kids doesn't mean he didn't raise us to be moral, upstanding citizens. To think otherwise is quite judgmental on your part.

@Heather4life: As for the spider situation, I kinda whimpered a little and quickly threw all the blankets off my bed (it was running under them to go hide/make its nest of doom/be an evil li'l spider) and quickly grabbed my organic chemistry text book and gave it a good whack. Various bits of spider legs went everywhere...it was a massive spider.

*shudders*

As much as I love biology, I think arachnids are some of the creepiest critters around...I'm more scared of spiders, ticks and scorpions than I am of deadly viruses and bacteria!

Rae -

I agree with the spider thing! I have faced some of the nastiest, meanest dogs and cats you will ever see. I have even been spit on by Llama's. (They aren't as nice as they look) I have held snakes and many other reptiles. But I will run like heck to get away from a spider!

Tee-hee...llamas. I love that word..."llama".

*done being a geek*

Anywho, fantastic news! I'm getting weened off my Effexor starting next week! I saw a new psychologist yesterday and he signed off on the idea (he was appalled by the fact my original psychiatrist has put be me on *Tegretol* of all meds when I was 13 and progressively put me on higher doses of drugs).

So yeah, for the first time in nearly 6 years I'll be med-free! I hope I'll be able to handle myself not on the drugs. :D

I beleive a father, that cannot teach a child moral principles, whithout invoking christ, shouldn't be raising children.

Cameron, where do you believe morals originate, if not from God?

Ahh the origins of morals... a great philosophical debate Lauren, but allow me to belittle God just a wee bit and point out that the non-christian world (most of the human race), seems, more or less, to have morals. They also think it's bad karma to be born out of their respective religions, and that other religions are functioning with a moral deficit at best. Where would we be without religion, and our intrinsic notions that theres something fundamentally wrong with those outside our religion? Wait... let me think about it for a minute... I suspect we'd be a little nicer to each other.

Nice sidestep of the issue, Cam.

I'm not talking about just YHWH, for obiviously following another religion's god will result in following his orders. I'm asking from where an athiest's morals spring forth?

You say "without invoking christ", but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't THAT intolerant, and really mean "without invoking some specific higher power".

The one-l lama, he's a priest.
The two-l llama, he's a beast.
And I will bet a silk pajama
There isn't any three-l lllama.

--Ogden Nash.

Rae and Heather4life,

If you think spiders are disgusting you should see the things that crawled out of my son's salt water aquarium, hid, and then reappeared on my bedroom and bathrooms floors. Horrifying. One looked like a praying mantis, the other like a huge black exotic spider. Fortunately my son was home both times so after suffering a heart attack I called him into the room. The "praying mantis" had been missing a year and he had no idea how it survived. The "exotic spider" was a crab, and he had no idea how it got out of the tank. I told him he had to find a way to keep these monstrosities in his tank since it wasn't doing my coronaries any good to see them scooting around my floors.

Rae,

Good for you for getting off Effexor!! Best of luck to you on your efforts to get off meds all together. Its my opinion these psych drugs are dispensed like candy, again my opinion only.

@Mary: Oh I agree with the whole meds dispensed like candy. I mean for crying out loud, I was on bloody Tegretol when I was 13! Tegretol is for seizures or severe bipolar disorder! In some ways, dispensing meds just covers the problem up instead of actually fixing it in some cases. In some cases they genuinely help, for example my mother. Without her medications she would be unbearable. I just think they started medicating me too young and over-medicated me in order to keep me calm.

However, if I find that I still need a bit of help keeping the mood more neutral, I will not balk at medications so long as they are low-dosed and just do the bare minimum of mood alterations. The rest of the problem is mine and what I really need is to learn how to deal with things and myself in a more healthy manner, so I will also be starting cognitive behavior therapy. :)

I'm quite excited for this, perhaps I'll finally be able to be genuinely happy? :D

As for the giant crab/spider thing...I used to have several hermit crabs, land hermit crabs and they were so cute! Well...all of them except my brother's crab that I took care of. His name was Gary and he was this ghastly large purple pincher who was cranky and scary (his claw was enormous!). Unfortunately all the cute li'l ones passed on during molting except Gary. He lived FOREVER. I swear, the little bugger stayed alive just to spite me. Saltwater hermit crabs are creepy though, can't say I'm a fan.

And how on earth did they manage to escape a saltwater tank!? Was the lid not on tightly enough?

Rae,

My sincere best wishes on your new course of treatment. You are wise to want to curtail any medications as much as possible and to face your problems head on. I know you will succeed.

As to how those critters got out of the tank. My son had no idea but I'm thankful he didn't tell me one was running around loose around the house and he had no idea where it was!

Rae -

Didn't you say your depression was Chemical? Or is it your Mom's that is chemical? I am very glad that you are going to try to go med free AND going into behavior therapy. Just make sure your closest friends know what is going on so they can be up front with you if you are having problems. One of the biggest problems is that most people don't realize that the depression has come back until it is really bad. I found that my closest friends will tell me when I'm getting a bit off, so I know to talk to my Dr. or therapist. My friends are used to this with me, since my dosage has to be changed frequently do to the AD/HD mucking everything up.

"I just think they started medicating me too young and over-medicated me in order to keep me calm."

13 is extremely young to be on meds like that. Hormones in themselves cause problems with anti-depresants not to mention all the trauma of just being 13! What do you mean 'keep me calm'? Are you talking about being dramatic or hyperactive. (I absolutley love being the drama queen in my family! But then I do say that one of my sisters is a Vulcan because she never has an emotion.) I'm asking this because of the possibility of a LD. Some doctors don't research what is causing the depression, they just have you pop pills to stop the symptoms, but this doesn't help the problem. If the reason you needed to be calmed down is because of a learning disability then the anti-depressants can make everything worse. This may also explain why they had to keep upping the dose; they were using the wrong kind of meds. If this is the case, then going off the Effexor will be a wonderful thing! Did your Dr. tell you that you may feel a bit 'off' for a couple weeks after stopping?

@Valerie: No, I don't have a learning disability. What I meant by "keep me calm" was "stop questioning authority and do EXACTLY as my parents said no questions asked". I constantly argued with them (as in big ol' blow-out scream fests) and they couldn't handle it anymore. I was miserable, they were miserable. The drugs stopped the fights, everything was hunky-dory after that.

I do think there is *some* depression there, like my mom as anxiety and depression are absolutely rampant in my family, but I want to stop the pills and start the behavioral therapy in order to see if learning to deal with issues better will help alleviate the symptoms to the point where I may not need meds or at least just need a low-dose of meds.

I know that I'll feel off while stopping the medications, I've been through the withdrawal before because last summer I accidentally ran out of pills because I had forgotten to ask my dad to send in the refill order to the mail-order business I got my pills from, so I had 2 weeks of withdrawal, which sucked. So I know that I'll probably be in for the same sort of deal only hopefully not as severe. :)

Unfortunately, I don't really have any friends I can talk to in real life, and I don't really bother telling them about my problems (as they probably couldn't care less) so they are relatively unimportant to me at this time, but my parents know and I'm planning to set up appointments with my new psychologist for chats during the weening to make sure everything is going ok and to just rant at him or something.

I'm really quite excited for this to be honest. I'm hoping this will be a positive and hopefully permanent change. ^_^

And Jasper, I'm still wondering as to why exactly you feel my father is effeminate.

HisMan I'd also like to hear your two cents as to whether you feel my dad is effeminate based on the description I gave you earlier.

I eagerly await both of your replies.

For those of you who might want to send Kansas Governor Sebelius a note about how she protects a serial killer maniacal madman, here's a link to her e-mail:

http://www.governor.ks.gov/comments/comment.htm

So many pro-aborts, so little time:

Rae, I don't know your dad so I don't know if he's effeminate. What do you think? I really don't care and I don't think you should either.

Erin, manliness and Christlikeness are synonomous, however, I don't think you would have a clue as to what that means.

Hal, you really don't want to read what I wrote before I decided it was rather cruel and decided to delete it. It's just gotta be tortuous to have to convince yourself that you did nothing wrong in aborting your first two children and then looking into the beautiful faces of your kids. All I know is I would have to come clean instead of playing ring around the rosy with it. You're gonna snap man.

Why can't a woman be Christlike?

Yeah, Hisman. Why can't a woman be Christlike?

Who was more Christlike than Mother Theresa?

Hisman, I censor the stuff I write to you too. I guess we'd both be kicked out of here if we said what we were really thinking about each other. I know I would.

His Man, I just sent her an e-mail!!