When I testified before an FDA committee opposing making the morning-after pill available without a prescription, I referred to a Bangkok Post story that revealed men were slipping it to girlfriends and wives without knowing.

Here's another example, based on a true story (addendum, 5:10p: about a guy slipping his girlfriend the abortion drug RU-486). According to e-urban legend, an ASU student made this short film, and her professor censored it. The background song, "Mad World," is from the "Donnie Darko" soundtrack.

[Hat tip: Bettnet.com via Andrew]

Again, the double standard. If it is a "wanted child" it is murder. If an abortionist had done this, it would just be "tissue"

What I find ironic is that a woman can have an abortion without even telling her husband/boyfriend, or if he knows and doesn't want her to have one, tough luck.

But if the boyfriend/husband wants an abortion and the woman doesn't, and he does something like this, it's a crime. Insanity.

Heather is right. The child is a child is a child and the law's only parameter is whether the child is wanted or not. Not whether it is a child, not whether it is a person, not whether it is a human being...but only whether someone wants it. Very dangerous territory indeed...

Ironic. This drug sold and used to give women their freedom of "choice" ultimatley took away this woman's freedom "choice".

Just for clarification, the drug mentioned in the video Jill posted is NOT the morning after pill. Ru-486, or mifepristone (as you can clearly read in the video)is the pill that can be given to you only by a doctor and only at a doctor's office. This man obviously acquired RU-486 illegally, as opposed to what I saw as the perceived implication from Jill's post- that he went to a drug store and bought Plan B. Plan B does not work on implanted eggs, especially one that has been implanted long enough for hormones to show up on a take home pregnancy test.

Jill - why are you trying to decieve your readers?

Watch the video - this is NOT ABOUT PLAN B (The Morning After Pill)! Its regarding RU 486, which is the medical abortion pill, which is certainly NOT available OTC. Anywhere, at all, ever.

Even so - Plan B is not available to men unless they steal it, and considering how common theft of prescription drugs is these days, it doesnt make a bit of difference whether or not its OTC. Stealing is stealing.

Gretchen, Amanda, I'm not trying to deceive anyone, for heaven's sakes. Actually, what does it matter whether a creep slips his pregnant girlfriend Plan B or RU-486? The bottom line is still the same, thanks to the availability of abortion drugs.

When I said, "Here's another example," I meant an example of a different sort.

And, actually, Amanda, you're wrong to say, "Plan B is not available to men unless they steal it...."

Plan B was approved by the FDA to purchase without a prescription by ANYONE over the age of 18, not just women.

You ought to clarify that, then, Jill.

It makes a great difference: RU-486 is NOT available without a prescription, whereas Plan B is. The bottom line is not the same, not even similar, not even close, and you seem to have deliberately mislead your readers. Good job: no journalistic credibility for you.

Jill: The message is not at all the same. Plan B,which is available over the counter, does not have the ability to cause a miscarriage like the one shown in the video. RU-486 IS NOT available to anyone other than doctors unless it is obtained illegally. Giving your girlfriend RU-486 is like shoving her down the stairs or knocking her out and using your own coathanger. Bad men who want to end a woman's pregnancy against her will will find a way, RU-486 or not, and it's misleading to talk about an OTC drug the way you did and then compare it to RU-486, which the man in the dramatization of the true story obviously had to obtain through illegal methods. RU-486 is not"available" in the same way as Plan B at all, but continue to be misleading all you wish.

Less,

That wasn't deceptive at all...the story is not about RU-486 OR plan B...the story is about an abortion being perfomed on a woman without her knowledge and the MAN being punished for it.

I was horrified that a man could do this, and I am horrified that women do it every day.

Not once did it matter how it was being done.

If the post had been about Jill rallying against a woman having a vaccum aspiration abortion without spousal consent, and then the video showing a woman getting a D & E without spousal consent, I think everyone would know that the post was about non-spousal consent and not what type of abortion she got!

"When I testified before an FDA committee opposing making the morning-after pill available without a prescription, I referred to a Bangkok Post story that revealed men were slipping it to girlfriends and wives without knowing.

Here's another example, based on a true story. According to e-urban legend, an ASU student made this short film, and her professor censored it. The background song, "Mad World," is from the "Donnie Darko" soundtrack."

And look at this context. The way I read it, it was all under the same heading of why you were against Plan B being OTC. One example was the Bangkok post example of Plan B misuse and "another example" would be the video. That's exactly the way the post reads, and if, say, you were a person who didn't know that mifepristone was not Plan B, you might get a very false impression.

I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed in this post, Jill. It is true that it is quite misleading to any layperson who watches it. Whether it be "example" or not, it's not clear that this is mifepristone, and you make no indication of this in your post. If you want to be completely truthful, I suggest you mention that the video deals with RU-486, NOT Plan B. You will lead people who are not well-read on the subject of contraception/abortion to believe that RU-486 and mifepristone are one in the same. That is misleading and unacceptable.

Gretchen,

But it wouldn't change the fact that the post is about a man's ability to give either drug to an unsuspecting woman, taking away her right to "choose"...

Why are you guys so hung up on Jill's english and not more pissed off that men are doing this to woman. You're all about choice, right? Well, these guys are taking choice away. So why isn't this what is bothering you?

Oooops, typo in my last post...it should say "RU-486 and PLAN B" are not one in the same....

Sorry for the confusion.

Dear God in Heaven people,

It's right there in the video...there's a 10 second shot SHOWING that it was mifepristone! What do you want...bright red arrows pointing to it and saying: BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT THE SAME DRUG THAT I WAS REFERRING TO EARLIER..."?

Oooops, typo in my last post...it should say "RU-486 and PLAN B" are not one in the same....

How easy it is to make a mistake...

Maybe your meant to mislead us?

MK: The problem is that you can get Plan B over the counter legally, but Plan B is not abortive in the way RU-486 is. I don't consider it abortive at all, but I know you do, however, Plan B does not work after implantation, and a pregnancy that shows up on a pregnancy test could not be ended by Plan B. Slipping your girlfriend Plan B is horrible and unconscionable, but its not going to make her miscarry if she' already pregnant. Illegally obtaining and slipping your gf RU-486, which does work after implantation and does cause a miscarriage, is completely different story. RU-486 is not just "available" out on the street, and comparing it to Plan B like this is deceptive, because RU-486 is not available OTC and is not available for public use. Even women obtaining abortions with RU-486 take the pill at a doctor's office, they don't even take it home with them.

MK, we DON'T DENY that it angers us that men take the choice away from women. I will vehemently state that I am against what this man did to his girlfriend. But it just disconcerts me that Jill didn't make the very very apparent difference between RU-486 and Plan B, which do two VERY different things. It's an important difference that must be brought to light.

But I can't tell you how angry and heartbroken I'd be if the choice to carry a pregnancy to full term was taken away from me. It's just that Jill failed to recognize an important difference between something that does cause an abortion and something that negates the need for an abortion to take place.

I'll concede that this could be read differently, but I honestly don't think Jill "meant" it. Cut her some slack. Haven't you ever gotten excited about an idea and missed seeing how it could be misconstrued?

So okay. It's not the same drug. No one is arguing that. Jill admitted it, said it was accidental.

I still don't understand why no one is pissed that it's being done with ANY drug...

MK... I corrected my mistake and owned up to it. Misleading, I think not. However, it's when one refuses to rectify mistakes that things become misleading. I think you know this.

Ok, little vultures, you can refocus back to the real bad guy now, if you care. I've made a clarification in my post.

We posted at the same time...

I'm glad you guys are pissed. Not at Jill, at the possibility of being given any pill without your knowledge.

Another thing is that pro-lifers don't necessarily make the distinction between the two pills that you do, so it might not occur to us that it would be two different things to you.

Sorry I got so mad, but I was so mad at the whole post that I couldn't believe no one else was speaking out about the way this guy acted...

whew.

all better.

I am PISSED, MK. I don't deny that it is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG TO SLIP SOMEONE ANY DRUG AT ANY TIME FOR ANY PURPOSE.

As to there being mifepristone in the clip...how does anyone know that mifepristone and Plan B are not the same? As I said, laypeople might assume they are.

The point is, MK, that some people don't know what Mifepristone is. I had to take a double take watching the video, because I just assumed that it was about Plan B, because of the lead up in the post. Someone could read this post, and just assume that mifepristone was Plan B, and was available over the counter, and could cause a pregnant woman to miscarry. That's dangerous misinformation for someone to come off with. I have spoken with many people who didn't know the difference between the two, and I wanted to make the delineation clear. A person slipping someone a drug is in the wrong, be it rohypnol to make rape easier, or RU-486 to cause forced abortion, but misinformation is also a lesser wrong that needs to be addressed.

Alyssa,

Which is exactly what Jill did, here...

Gretchen, Amanda, I'm not trying to deceive anyone, for heaven's sakes. Actually, what does it matter whether a creep slips his pregnant girlfriend Plan B or RU-486? The bottom line is still the same, thanks to the availability of abortion drugs.

When I said, "Here's another example," I meant an example of a different sort.
Posted by: Jill Stanek [TypeKey Profile Page] at June 6, 2007 04:47 PM

Thanks all.

MK...the reason that I saw that mistake and made light of it was more because I would have thought that you would know that any conscientious choicer would be pissed that a woman's choice was disrespected. I was disgusted at what that man did. I therefore passed over the point that I thought we could both agree upon, and went to one that was more vague and possibly misleading. You know as well as I that what that man did was reprehensible. Truce?

I thought this video was really well done. The teddy bear in the corner seems to symbolize the life the couple is about to create, and I thought the music was great. The fact that someone would do this without the mom's consent is infuriating.

But on another note, women get abortions everyday without the knowledge or consent of their boyfriends/lovers/husbands. How do those men feel when they find out what was done? Do they have any legal recourse? Nope. These women are merely exercising their "right to chose".

Alyssa and Gretchen and anyone else,

And now Jill has changed the post.
And I have acknowledged that it might have been confusing...

so it's all good.

kay?

I no like being angry...

'Alyssa,

Truce...like I said, I wasn't really mad at you.
Just the fact that the jerks actions were getting overlooked. When we are fighting about something real I don't mind if it gets heated but I was sooo confused as to why this is what was getting focused on. I get it now. and again, I'm sorry. You're point was actually valid. I forget that new people might come on and not be as well versed in the lingo as we are...

But what about the question of why can a woman get an abortion and not consult the father, but it doesn't work the other way?

No Jill. Plan B is available without a prescription, but specifically FOR WOMEN OVER THE AGE OF 18.

From the FDA website:

Duramed, a subsidiary of Barr Pharmaceuticals, will make Plan B available with a rigorous labeling, packaging, education, distribution and monitoring program. In the CARE (Convenient Access, Responsible Education) program Duramed commits to:

-Provide consumers and healthcare professionals with labeling and education about the appropriate use of prescription and OTC Plan B, including an informational toll-free number for questions about Plan B;

-Ensure that distribution of Plan B will only be through licensed drug wholesalers, retail operations with pharmacy services, and clinics with licensed healthcare practitioners, and not through convenience stores or other retail outlets where it could be made available to younger women without a prescription;

-Packaging designed to hold both OTC and prescription Plan B. Plan B will be stocked by pharmacies behind the counter because it cannot be dispensed without a prescription or proof of age; and

-Monitor the effectiveness of the age restriction and the safe distribution of OTC Plan B to women 18 and above and prescription Plan B to women under 18.

WOMEN ONLY. Men cannot get it. Sorry. You're wrong.

Amanda,

It doesn't say anything about midgets.

(I couldn't help myself)

It doesn't specifically say anything about "men"...I'm not saying your wrong, it would just be interesting to see if there is something somewhere about a man trying to purchase it and being stopped. (or for that matter allowed to...)

Off to an outdoor barbecue tonight....I'll get back to you wonderful people tomorrow. Lots of hugs!!

Once again the "pro-choice" supporters have shown that they are willing to ignore violations against women to support their position.

I have read studies that Plan B is an abortifacient. (Please see study below)
Let's not start an argument of fertilization vs. implantation.

I agree with MK, why are you not remotely disturbed with the fact that men are taking this action against women?

Why does it also not disturb you that the man in the video obtained RU 486 illegally.
So much for her "choice" and her health.

Why don't you quit the smoke screen arguments and have a "real" conversation about the "real" issue the post addresses.

STUDY FINDS STRONG EVIDENCE FOR ABORTIFACIENT EFFECT OF PLAN B "EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION". [Analysis by Dr. John B. Shea, MD. FRCP(C)].This finding contrasts sharply with "effectiveness" rates reported in clinical trials, where rates as high as 95% are reported if administered within 24 hours after intercourse.

The authors suggest that mechanisms other than disruption of ovulation contribute to this "reduction of clinical pregnancy." Those mechanisms were said to include inhibition of sperm migration and reduction of sperm capacity for fertilization (both contraceptive mechanisms) and "mechanisms that act after fertilization," that is, prevent implantation of the embryo in the uterus.

That mechanism causes an abortion and does not "reduce clinical pregnancy." Only numbers can be reduced. The pregnancies are aborted, not reduced.

The word "effectiveness" is used by the authors in an ambiguous way. One meaning refers to disruption of ovulation, contraception, and the other refers to reduction in fecundity, but does not indicate whether this was the result of contraception, abortion, or both. This study does, however, provide strong evidence that levonorgestrel administered as an "emergency contraceptive" may act as an abortifacient. Abstract excerpts: Levonorgestrel emergency contraception: a joint analysis of effectiveness and mechanism of action

Poisoning victim speaks about her miscarriage and accused boyfriend
Poison victim speaks about her miscarriage and accused boyfriend

"I was very excited about it and he knew that."

I-Sharii Best was looking forward to taking on the role of new mom. At eleven weeks, on Valentine's Day her doctor gave her an ultrasound picture. She still looks at the black and white picture, pointing out the legs, and head. But instead of using the pregnancy magazines sitting in her car... or taking the prenatal vitamins still in her purse... she thinks of what could have been. She had a miscarriage. She says her boyfriend Daniel Riase made her a victim.

"I was pregnant so I have to drink a lot of milk. So he fixed me a glass of milk and I drank the milk and we went to bed. ...Four-thirty I woke up and I was bleeding and I told him and told me to go back to sleep and it would probably stop."

The bleeding did not stop. In an emergency room, alone, hours later... a doctor told her she'd lost her baby. She says Riase's reaction was cold.

"I called him when I got out of the emergency room and told him. And he was like 'What did they say the cause of it was? What did they say the cause of it was?'"

Best says in the beginning of her pregnancy, Riase did not hide his feelings about becoming a father.

"I told him that I didn't want to have an abortion and he was very upset, very upset," she recalls.

Best thought,her boyfriend of two years had changed.

She says, "He got over it. He was acting fine. Thinking up baby names and things like that. All along he had already ordered the drugs and he knew what he was going to do."

After the miscarriage, Best took on the role of investigator. She says she checked Riases email and saw an order confirmation email from a company that sells pills used for abortions. Best confronted Riase.

"He just told me what he did. He said he crushed two pills and put it in my milk and I drank it. He said he ordered it off the internet. ...Before I actually went to the police station, I went to KMart and got a tape recorder. Because he kept calling me and recorded the conversation that we had."

Several times according to Best, Riase called and left messages apologizing, saying he just wanted them to be happy.

Daniel Riase has refused our requests for an interview. He is in jail in Hampton. A judge denied him bond Friday morning. He's expected to go back to court on March 8.

Apparently men can get the drug...although the article doesn't clarify which drug he gave her...

"It doesn't specifically say anything about "men"...I'm not saying your wrong, it would just be interesting to see if there is something somewhere about a man trying to purchase it and being stopped. (or for that matter allowed to...)"

MK - Basically, how it works is that even though the drug is available without a prescription, it is still held behind the pharmacy counter. When you ask for it, the pharmacist checks your ID. They are not permitted to give it to men EVER, or women under the age of 18. If there was a case where this happened, that pharmacist would be doing something wrong - which is not the norm. They are supposed to be very strict about only giving it to the person who is taking it - which would obviously not be a man.

We surveyed 40 pharmacies in Brooklyn regarding Plan B. As of January 2007, the majority reported that most of the Plan B they distributed was still through prescription, probably because not too many people realize they can get it without one. Also, before the OTC legislation was approved, a lot of women, including myself, got a "just in case" prescription for it from a gyno., so I could get it filled right away if I needed it. All 40 said they had trained all employees on the procedure for distributing it without a prescription - and not giving it to men is part of that procedure.

MK - if he obtained it over the internet, he obtained it illegally regardless of his gender, as there is no way to verify the age of the patient through the internet.

But sadly, you can get almost ANYTHING off the internet these days...including opiate painkillers. While its horrible and wrong that these things happen, we cant blame the drug itself, as it does plenty of good for the people who access it and use it the way its meant to be used...

Being pro-choice to me is about being able to decide what I want to do with my body, me alone, my decission. And I wouldn't be having sex with a guy who didn't want to have a baby if I didn't.

Amanda,

It doesn't do the "babies" much good.

Just called my Osco here in Park Ridge and asked if the over the counter abortion pill can be sold to men or just women...without any hesitation whatsoever she said it could be sold to both...

847-696-3680

"Just called my Osco here in Park Ridge and asked if the over the counter abortion pill can be sold to men or just women...without any hesitation whatsoever she said it could be sold to both."

There is NO over the counter abortion pill, so who ever you talked to had no idea what they were saying.

http://www.pharmacyaccess.org/pdfs/DriesDaffner_PlanOTC.pdf

This is a PDF file but it clearly states that men can purchase mifepristone over the counter...

PDF]
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) for Pharmacists About Pharmacy ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
A: Yes, if the man shows proof of age that he is 18 or older, he can purchase Plan B OTC. Men under 18 do NOT have. the option to obtain a prescription for ...
www.pharmacyaccess.org/pdfs/ECFAQsForPharmacists.pdf -

[PDF]
Page 1 EC Information for Wisconsin Health Professionals What you ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
the abortion pill (mifepristone or RU486) and will not harm an already existing ... Men ages 18 and older can purchase Plan B OTC in pharmacies beginning in ...
www.supportwomenshealth.org/media/documents/pdf/facts heets/HPRC%20EC%20OTC%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

# Plan B is used after intercourse to prevent pregnancy. A pelvic exam is not required before using EC.

# EC does not disrupt an established pregnancy.

# The first tablet should be taken by mouth as soon as possible after unprotected intercourse and a second dose taken 12 hours later. Plan B is FDA approved for use within 72 hours after unprotected intercourse. Available research indicates that Plan B is effective in reducing the risk of pregnancy when taken as 2 tablets in one dose and for up to 120 hours after unprotected intercourse.

# Common side effects of Plan B include nausea, vomiting, breast tenderness, abdominal pain or cramping, and headache. The patient should expect their period within one week of when it is normally due.

# There are no known contraindications for use.

# Women and men ages 18 and older may purchase Plan B with a government issued form of identification (for proof of age). Individuals are not required to provide photo identification or to sign a registry for pharmacy record keeping.

# If a woman is under 18 or has no government issued identification, she must present a prescription for Plan B unless she in one of the nine states with pharmacist-access to EC, in which case the pharmacist could provide the product under the established protocol.

more?

Basically, how it works is that even though the drug is available without a prescription, it is still held behind the pharmacy counter. When you ask for it, the pharmacist checks your ID. They are not permitted to give it to men EVER, or women under the age of 18. If there was a case where this happened, that pharmacist would be doing something wrong - which is not the norm. They are supposed to be very strict about only giving it to the person who is taking it - which would obviously not be a man.

There is NO over the counter abortion pill, so who ever you talked to had no idea what they were saying.

Okay,

My head is spinning. All of these came up when I put in men purchasing mifepristone...

Jill and I are not the only ones that confuse the terminology...as I am look at them again, even tho I NEVER put in plan B, only mifepristone, the computer gave me all these about plan B...I didn't really look. I was only concerned with the ages and sex...

arrrgggghhhh...

sorry.

Wait...

I'm even more confused! We are talking about plan b.

Oh my head hurts.

Okay, mifepristone can only (should only) be obtained through a prescription.

But plan B is sold OTC, and CAN be sold to MEN as well as women...

whew...

so I'm not sorry...just valerie!

Again,
the confusion comes because to me both are abortion pills, but to you they are not.

Apparently, plan B is considered an abortion pill by the pharmicist I talked to.

Still don't know why plan B came up when I typed in Mifepristone, but it doesn't matter because plan b is what I wanted.

Are you confused now, too?

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/planB/planBQandA20060824.htm

7a. How can I purchase over-the-counter Plan B?

Plan B will only be sold in pharmacies/stores staffed by a licensed pharmacist. In order to purchase Plan B over-the-counter, personal identification showing proof of age (18) is required. Plan B will be available behind the counter at the pharmacy in order to manage both prescription (17 years and under) and OTC (18 years and over) dispensing. This means Plan B will not be sold at gas stations or convenience stores, where other OTC products are routinely available.

7b. Can men purchase Plan B? (added 12/14/2006)

Yes. Plan B OTC is approved to allow OTC availability of Plan B for consumers 18 years and older. Plan B remains available by prescription only for women 17 years and younger.

Well part of the huge controversy at first was fear that men could get Plan B if they made it OTC, but the FDA came out with this whole plan of responsible access and whatnot, claiming this would prevent men from purchasing it. If thats not how its actually happening, that goes against the FDA's initial justification and reasoning behind making it OTC, and Im just as opposed to men being able to buy Plan B as Im sure you're opposed to anyone being able to buy it.

MK... I corrected my mistake and owned up to it. Misleading, I think not. However, it's when one refuses to rectify mistakes that things become misleading. I think you know this.

Crow? :)

I don't really blame you for the mistake...it's all so new and changing constantly...

You saw how confused I got and I know what we're talking about...

Imagine how the general public feels...

And it still doesn't explain how that clown got mifepristone...

double truce!

"And it still doesn't explain how that clown got mifepristone..."

Id bet my life he got it on the internet. A guy I went to high school with died after taking steroids he'd purchased illegally online because they were laced.

One of my greatest concerns about abortion bans is that its SO easy to get all sorts of drugs from the internet, and demand for medications to cause abortions will create a whole new demand to keep that crap going on and killing people.

and demand for medications to cause abortions will create a whole new demand to keep that crap going on and killing people.

I will refrain from saying the obvious...

No I won't. You mean like the 45 million babies?

Less and Amanda usually skip out when it's gets to the point where they have to explain why it's OK to kill babies. they are, sorry, cowards..

MK -

except you already know that I believe there is a difference between being alive and being a person. I think its much scarier to know that young girls will be dying of overdoses or poisonings from taking illegal drugs than having safe abortions in legal and regulated medical facilities.

Nah,

Jasper,
Tonight I think Amanda did a great job. Nothing changed, but ideas were fairly exchanged. Actually, maybe something did change. We became friends while remaining enemies.

Didn't Chesterson and Shaw do that a lot?

We've lived a lot of years that these guys haven't yet. Raised kids, kept spouses, grew...they deserve their time too. Prayer, Jasper, prayer.

"except you already know that I believe there is a difference between being alive and being a person."

really? what's the difference

"I think its much scarier to know that young girls will be dying of overdoses or poisonings from taking illegal drugs than having safe abortions in legal and regulated medical facilities."

safe abortions, safe for who? f'ing pro-death non-sense.

Sorry, I disagree with you MK.

"except you already know that I believe there is a difference between being alive and being a person."

really? what's the difference

"I think its much scarier to know that young girls will be dying of overdoses or poisonings from taking illegal drugs than having safe abortions in legal and regulated medical facilities."

safe abortions, safe for who? f'ing pro-death non-sense.

Sorry, I disagree with you MK.
Posted by: jasper at June 6, 2007 08:42 PM

Jasper, youre no dummy. Dont pretend that you dont know that a "person" has rights under the law of the United States. Fetuses are granted no rights to personhood, the simplest example of this being the fact that their premeditated deaths are not illegal. Bullying on the grounds of semantics wont get you anywhere, and more babies will die as a result of your wasted efforts.

As for the "f-ing pro-death nonsense" Im a pro-life advocate, but I have to say that I had a hell of a lot rather abortions be done safely and a life be destroyed before the ability to feel pain has developed that for a woman to make the choice to have an illegal abortion and spend her last hours writhing alone in unfathomable pain. If you are pro-life, you are pro-all-life (which you have already negated with your stance on the death penalty) and only the lowest of the low would wish such pain on any woman as that entailed by an amateur abortion.

"Jasper, youre no dummy. Dont pretend that you dont know that a "person" has rights under the law of the United States. Fetuses are granted no rights to personhood,"

I'm was refering to physical differences and why the hell shouldnt fetuses have rights?

"Bullying on the grounds of semantics wont get you anywhere, and more babies will die as a result of your wasted efforts."

who is bullying? where did I bully anybody?

"As for the "f-ing pro-death nonsense" Im a pro-life advocate, but I have to say that I had a hell of a lot rather abortions be done safely and a life be destroyed before the ability to feel pain has developed that for a woman to make the choice to have an illegal abortion and spend her last hours writhing alone in unfathomable pain. If you are pro-life, you are pro-all-life (which you have already negated with your stance on the death penalty) and only the lowest of the low would wish such pain on any woman as that entailed by an amateur abortion."

bullshit, your not prolife, your a damn phoney!

And Jasper has proven that he truly is...a jerk.

Demonizing people who are on his own friggin' side...that's just sad and depressing.

And yes Jasper, you are a bully with your comments about liberals being cowardly monsters. That and your racist and bigoted comments about my Muslim friend pretty much constitutes "ass-hat" in my book.

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/05/conversion_stor_1.html#comments

PWND.

I love you Samantha =)

Amanda, how many babies did you kill? you stickin loser

Amanda: Yes or no. Do you understand Plan B can be sold to men over 18 without a prescription as well as women?

Um, she interns at PP, she's not a doctor there, so she didnt kill any you moron.

Jasper, people like you are exactly the reason why women who have abortions dont speak out and try to help other women. With your hate-filled condemnation of any living organism that doesnt share your warped philosophy apex by apex, you shun the very people who could be moving this fight forward. You can curse and scream all you want, but all I have left to say to you is that I hope to Holy God in heaven that you repent for turning people away from Him before you do anymore damage, and that any woman who is truly considering an abortion would be fortunate enough to come across someone like MK or Bethany (I would even take HISMAN!!) instead of someone like you who will send her screaming and running for dear life as far away from your judgmental tripe as she can possibly get.

I must agree with SamanthaT here. Jasper (or people like him) are the reason I am agnostic and dont go to church.

WAY TO GO JASPER!!

Hi Jill

Yes - I know that whole thread between MK and I got confusing. The original documents released by the FDA when they went to trial to get it OTC made it pretty clear they were going to ensure it wasn't available to men. But as is typica with politics, by the time it actually got approved, this seems to have gone by the wayside. And as I said to MK, I am completely opposed to men being able to buy it. There are certain prescription drugs, like oxycontin and chemo drugs, for example, that you absolutely CANNOT pick up for another person without ALLLLL sorts of medical documentation that you are a care giver for someone who is physically unable to pick up the prescription themselves. Obviously someone that physically unable to pick up a drug probably shouldnt be having sex... and I think Plan B should fall under the same restrictions.

And as for obtaining RU-486/Mifepristone, you can do so online.

Ah, yes, thanks to you pro-aborts for the wonderful new world of legal abortions, now available in pill form for sleezy men to slip to stupid, exploited women or young incest/pediophile victims.

Sorry Samatha, Amanda, all, for any insulting comments. Just ran out of patience tonight.

Well, thats not a first.

Yeah - we talked about that too - it CAN be obtained online, but not legally, so its not like that would magically stop happening if abortion was banned, considering selling it online is completely illegal, but is happening anyway... same with steroids, oxyies, and all sorts of medications which can be very deadly in the wrong hands.

and Jill - you've deleted (understandably) many comments with people callling each other names. Why not Jaspers?

Less and Amanda usually skip out when it's gets to the point where they have to explain why it's OK to kill babies. they are, sorry, cowards..

Must I explain the concept of having a life again to you, jasper? I generally don't spend every waking moment on this blog: I have better things to do, usually my fiance and work. Today in particular, since you seem so interested, I also got my hair chopped, went shopping, and watched a bit of TV. Excuse me for not catering my schedule towards your frequent bouts of bashing and blathering and general bitterness towards all things different from you. Honestly, jasper, "Christians" like you are 90% of the reason why the majority of the people leave the church. Great job chasing people away from God, jasper. :)

"Amanda, how many babies did you kill? you stickin loser"

And that, Jasper, is why I have NO respect for you what-so-ever.

"Sorry Samatha, Amanda, all, for any insulting comments. Just ran out of patience tonight."

I'm sure you do. Not. As you say this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME and when you get called on it, you shrink away saying, "Sorry, sorry! Didn't mean it!" and then proceed to say the same things the next day!

Agreed Less - its exactly because of people like Jasper that my parents made the decision to bring me up as a Christian at Unitarian Universalist Church, but since there isnt a UU Church near me now, I've been going to the United Church of Christ, which I've found to be quite similar. Both of my parents are very Christian, but didnt want my sister and I raised around such anger, hatred, and bigotry.

" Not. As you say this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME"

ahh, no I don't.

BS Jasper, you still "pro choice" on clinic bombings?

You do this all the time...

@Jasper: Actually, you do.

I tend to think it's sad, Amanda. I'm lucky to have a rather positive example of Christianity in my fiance, who has never expressed any of the bigotry that seems to pop up so frequently here. I have no idea how he managed to avoid it, but somehow he did.

I've heard good things about the UU church. I've often considered searching one out, but there don't seem to be any around where I live. It's a pity: you guys seem to be a good bunch. :)

"Honestly, jasper, "Christians" like you are 90% of the reason why the majority of the people leave the church. Great job chasing people away from God, jasper."

we'll you shouldn't leave the church because of me, I'm a sinner and have my faults just like anyone else. If you leave the church, your problem is with Jesus, not me. I wouldn't leave the church and so easly change my beliefs because some other christian pissed me off. It means your beliefs were'nt strong to begin with.

@Less: If you lived in the White Bear Lake area in Minnesota, there are two UU churches within a few miles of each other. :) I almost went to one a few weeks ago but didn't because I realized I'd have to get up before noon.

Hey Jasper..

Why are you ignoring my post about you being pro choice when it comes to clinic bombings?

And also, when a person encounters many many people with the same attitude as you, it is COMPLETELY understandable why the would turn away from a church. You're the prime example why I have no faith and switched to being agnostic @ 17.

"Both of my parents are very Christian, but didnt want my sister and I raised around such anger, hatred, and bigotry."

oh please, give me a break.

Rae: My old Methodist pastor is leaving the church, and my sister is not going to go back anymore, because she doesn't like change. I told her she should find a UU church, but I think she's more of a deist/less practicing believer now. The dead father and the dying mother will do that to a teenager.

Jasper-

You REALLY need to get over yourself. Who in Hades died and gave you the almighty power of knowing everything and being the morality police? You seem to think that there is no hatred or bigotry in the Church? Well buddy, you are dead wrong. The church teaches that homosexuals are wrong blah blah, and people actually WONDER why hate crimes still take place in America today? And yet the Presby Church of USA teaches this and then sponsors a gay and lesbian day at Walt Disney World every year, andyou think that is not being hypocritical? GIVE ME A BREAK..

Also, if someone (even a pro-lifer who is on your side) disagrees with you, you proceed to verbally attack them. You ARE A PRIME EXAMPLE of why people are losing their faith in God and Churches these days. Give yourself a pat on the back. I hope your proud of yourself.

Your "do you like me now Mr. Muslim" comments are up in the top ten most bigoted things I've read on here Jasper.

I don't know too many Muslim men (I go to an all women's college, I don't meet too many men period)But all of my Muslim female friends love America, despise terrorists giving Islam a bad name, and have good relationships with their male family members, they are also friends with the Jewish girls at my school. So, your "oh look at me bashing america and Israel and supporting terrorists, don't you like me now, Mr. Muslim" statement was a few steps shy of infuriating.

And I am adding your "I am pro-choice on abortion clinic bomings to Gretchen's list.

Less - my grandmother is great to talk to about religion and is part of the reason I didnt get totally disillusioned by Christianity after running in to a few Jasper-like individuals when I was one of the founding members of my high schools first Gay/Straight Alliance.

Basically she told me about all the crap she took for being the member of a church that allowed black members in the 50s. And how ridiculous that sounds now, it will soon sound just as ridiculous that gays are shunned today, just as it seems completely ridiculous that millions of native people all over the world were slaughtered in the name of Christ, so on and so forth. She told me that people have been using Christianity as an excuse for fear and hatred for a very long time, but that even though how the masses choose to use his message may change, the way YOU feel about it doesn't. That being said, you don't need to be a member of a church to be a Christian. Frankly, if you'd have to put up with some of the nonsense that goes on, I think Jesus would totally understand. =)

I don't have time to post but one post tonight.

Those of you who are acting as though Jasper is bigoted, isn't it striking how Christianity is the only religion that is not off limits to be bigoted against? Don't dare speak evil of islam, but it's okay to bash Christians all you want, am I correct?

It seems to be the politically correct thing to claim all Christians are bad based on one or two you've met that you don't like.

Seems like there's a little hypocrisy going on if you ask me.

"Your "do you like me now Mr. Muslim" comments are up in the top ten most bigoted things I've read on here Jasper."

why is that bigoted, she has/had Muslim boyfriend. I didn't say I didn't like or hate muslims, etc. I didn't know her boyfriends name so I used Mr. Muslim (that's the only thing i knew about him).

Ok, one more post before I leave...
As for "Christianity teaches homosexuality is wrong", um, what does the Koran teach about homosexuality? Or abortion, for that matter? Just curious... since you all seem to be supportive of islam.

*giggle*

he's mocking what Im saying about my parents now too... because, you know, he knows them so well, just like he knows about the rest of my political beliefs and how I feel about terrorism.

Guys, maybe we should stop arguing with him, he seems to know an awful lot about me that I haven't told ANYONE on here - *gasp* maybe Jasper is God?!?!

Never claimed to support Islam, in fact I dont support any "mass" religion. And I am sure there are hypocrites on there side too, but seeing as I dont know any Islams, Muslims or Jewish people, I'll stick to what I do know: Christianity

What I've heard is "It's Christians like you" not "all Christians are bad and evil" Calling a specific person out is different from making a proclamation about an entire group.

And if I said, "I can see you now, bashing gays, and telling women they are inherently meant to follow men and not teach or hold any position of leadership over men, and supporting torture and imprisonment of people of other religions, don't you like me now, Mr. Christian?" about any random Christian, especially one I knew absolutely nothing about, you would term that as bigoted, wouldn't you?

Sometimes Christians do get bashed as a whole, and that does show bigotry, to paint every person in a group with the same brush. But if the color of the paint fits the single person it's being painted on, that's not bigotry.

And I apologize if I missed the posts that were saying that all Christians display the hateful behavior that Jasper does.

"And I am adding your "I am pro-choice on abortion clinic bomings to Gretchen's list"

Midnite, I was making an analogy that other night.

It's bigoted because you were saying that what you perceived as her behavior (hating Israel, bashing America, supporting terrorism) would be APPROVED OF by any Muslim. She was dating a Muslim, so he must have really loved her America bashing, her Israel hating, and her terrorist supporting, because that's what Muslims like! (not that I'm agreeing that she was doing any of those things)

Bethany - if there was a Muslim person on here spouting the same hateful nonsense, you bet your butt I'd be saying the same things. I have family members who are Muslim, and we've had plenty of debates about things we disagree on.... so I have no tendency to be PC...

I think the difference is that Christians of the New Right tend to feel that their religion is a mandate, while Jewish and other religions tend not to try so hard to shove their faith down other people's throats.

Jasper, I dont care what you were doing, it was wrong, hurtful and UN-CHRISTIAN for you to say it. You only said it to hurt my fellings and royaly piss me off, and if you like about it, thats another sin to add to your list.

@Jasper: I only dated him briefly, we were never a "couple". If you *must* know, his name was Maamoun.

@Bethany: I don't "support" Islam, but I do believe it warrants the same respect given to Christianity and Judaism, as there are extremists in every religion that makes said religion look bad (for extremist Christians, take a look at the country of Georgia, Jews, look at Israel, there are Jews that don't acknowledge the Holocaust).

But for the record, what drove me away from Christianity wasn't so much the people as some of the beliefs. On the whole, I don't mind Christianity, but I don't care for certain aspects of it, just like I don't care for certain aspects of Islam or Judaism.

And also Bethany, the Qur'an is against homosexuality, just like the Bible (but in Iran it is an offense punishable by death), and I don't know about abortion, but I imagine it's just as vague as the Bible is.

oops lie about it.

Bethany: Christians aren't often the victims of hate crimes. People don't go out and beat up Christians after a terrorist attack. People don't threaten to put Christians in internment camps (Michelle Malkin, wrote a book about thinking this might be a good idea, and other conservatives agree) Racial profiling doesn't affect Christians wearing crosses, but it does effect Muslim men and women in traditional religious garb. Point being, bigoted feelings about Muslims tend to lead to violence, whereas Christians aren't subject to the same sort of threat. And I agree with Amanda, if there was a Muslim on here spouting the same bigotry about Christianity, we'd be all over it.

"Bethany - if there was a Muslim person on here spouting the same hateful nonsense, you bet your butt I'd be saying the same things."

LOL! yea sure.

Catholic bashing: as we saw here tonight with all of the misinformed accusations, the last accepted form of bigotry.

Jasper,

You have a problem, serisouly, check it out. And I know that Amanda, Gretchen, and myself would say things to a person of ANY religion if they acted the way you do.

"Bethany: Christians aren't often the victims of hate crimes. People don't go out and beat up Christians after a terrorist attack. People don't threaten to put Christians in internment camps (Michelle Malkin, wrote a book about thinking this might be a good idea, and other conservatives agree) Racial profiling doesn't affect Christians wearing crosses, but it does effect Muslim men and women in traditional religious garb. Point being, bigoted feelings about Muslims tend to lead to violence, whereas Christians aren't subject to the same sort of threat. And I agree with Amanda, if there was a Muslim on here spouting the same bigotry about Christianity, we'd be all over it."

There is so much lousy garbage in this I don't know where to start. Just utter nonsense.

And why is it nonsense, b/c you dont agree?

GO FIGURE!

Tell me what is lousy garbage about it? Muslim men were targets of violence after 9-11. They are targets of racial profiling, not Christians, you can't argue with that. Maybe Christians face violence in other countries, but here in America, as the majority, I don't see a lot of Christians being targets of violence solely because someone knew that they were a Christian. The same cannot be said of Muslims. Do you know of one single story in America where a person was walking down the street and attacked because they "looked like a Christian?"

Jasper, I dont think anyone has engaged in Catholic bashing. If anything, it has been a free-for-all in Jasper-bashing, because your statements warranted an inflamed response. This is not the first time that I personally have been upset with your generalizing stereotypes and unacceptable terminology. If you are truly sorry, please refrain in the future from insensing such an uproar and allow the boards instead to be used as they were originally intended: for the education and discussion of the important social issues regarding abortion.

Oh, I’m well aware of the fact that Islam is fairly bigoted as well. But the reality of it is is that Christianity is the largest religion in the US, where most of us live, and therefore the most visible. Most of our leaders are Christian, and the most vocal critics of homosexuality, abortion, feminism, and religious differences are Christian. Falwell, Phelps, and those like him have put a permanent stain on the religion. Of course we decry the bigotry in Islam, particularly the extremists, but the majority of us are most exposed to Christianity and the hypocrisies and bigotries thereof.

I disagree with ANY mass religion, to be honest: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all alike. One of my best friends is Muslims, and you bet your butt I call him out when he’s a jerk about something. He’s got quite a thing against drinking, and when he goes on one of his anti-alcohol rants you bet I call him out on it. When he goes on a tangent about how something is just about “culture,” I call him out just the same. The difference being that he doesn’t often condemn an entire section of people based on their beliefs, never attempts to convert me, and doesn’t have the hatred and intolerance that jasper seems to have.

"Jasper, I dont think anyone has engaged in Catholic bashing."

Not actual bashing, but misinformation -yes.

Ok Samatha, I'll try to do better.

My doctors sons, who are Sikh Indians, were beaten to a pulp by schoolmates they didnt even know walking home from school after 9/11. One of them was in the hospital for 12 days recovering. It was awful...

Never heard a case where a bunch of Muslim/Jewish/Unitarian/whatever high school kids just randomly attacked two white boys for NO other reason besides that they were wearing crosses.

Ive never had anyone spit on me for being a Christian.

My mom's cousins could not say the same for being Muslim.

LOL Less - the drinking thing is what always gets my cousin and I going too. We've seriously been having the same argument for 10 years..

... but of course, we manage to have that argument without calling each other names and making completely ridiculous blanket statements about each others entire belief system...

"When he goes on a tangent about how something is just about “culture,” I call him out just the same."

why can't he discuss the culture, who are you to tell him he can't. There's the PC police again.

My Muslim Friend and I have been having the same arguments ever since we met too. We both absolutely relish conflict, so it happens whenever we talk and we both love it. Seriously, we argue everything from Star Wars v Lord of the Rings to politics: I'm way more liberal than he is.

And funny, we both manage to not bash each other's religion as well...

Jasper,

You're never going to learn on you? And yet you think St. Peter is going happily open the gates to heaven for you? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... I shall laught about that until I die probably.

jasper, that didn't make since. Learn to English, please. :)

"Ive never had anyone spit on me for being a Christian."

I heard of people getting their heads sliced off with dull knives for being Christian. Would you like to see some videos?

hmmmm, doesnt happen in America Jasper, please try again....

"hmmmm, doesnt happen in America Jasper, please try again..."

No, it doesn't, your right. Only tall skyscrapers get blown up...

@Jasper: Yup, they do...you do remember Timothy McVeigh, do you not? He was your average white, Christian, American who thought it would be BRILLIANT to blow up a building in Oklahoma! Gee-golly, even white-men can be terrorists!

Well, that isnt the same as a Christian getting the head chopped off b/c they were Christians now is it? That happens in the middle east. And they didnt get blown up either dweedle dum, a plane crashed into them.

for your education: Amanda, Rae, Gretchen, Less, Midnite:

People killed by radical Muslims on 9/11: 2,996

Muslim-Americans killed in revenge (...by white power felons): 1

Islamic Terror Attacks on American Soil:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

Oh yes Jasper, like that's a good, non-biased website. Please.

Thanks, but I DONT need to be educated by YOU. I lived through 9/11 too, and can tell you exactly where I was when the planes hit and how many people died. I am not a child who doesnt remember.

Any stats on the gay hate crimes, jasper, that are universally perpetrated by Christians? Ever heard of Brandon Teena, the transgendered teen who was raped and viciously murdered in a small town in Texas? What about all the spousal rape that goes on, usually by Christian males who believe that that "deserve" sex from their wives?

Many, many, psychological reports have linked traditional attitudes on religion and gender roles to rape: men who have these traditional beliefs are far, far more likely to believe in rape myths, perpetrate date rape, and blame the victim. It isn't just Muslims v Christians, it's about Christian hypocrisy and the violence, bigotry, and hatred that Christianity can excuse. I'm not saying it always does, but you can bend the Bible to justify gay hate crimes, spousal rape, and belief in victim blame.

I believe I speak for several on this forum when I say: please stop using Jesus as an excuse to be a narrow-minded bigot.

And I am officiously done whacking my head on a brick wall.

Good night.

"Oh yes Jasper, like that's a good, non-biased website. Please."

Rae, are you disputing the stats on the website? are they phoney?

"men who have these traditional beliefs are far, far more likely to believe in rape myths, perpetrate date rape, and blame the victim."

Really? do have any stats on this?

"I believe I speak for several on this forum when I say: please stop using Jesus as an excuse to be a narrow-minded bigot."

when did I use Jesus as an excuse, why do keep calling me a bigot?

I don't hate gays, One of my good friends since childhood is gay, I don't agree with his lifestyle, but I care about him and certainly don't hate him. I don't rape my wife and don't blame victims. My church doesn't teach any of these things you just stated...

See: Rape Perceptions, Gender Role Attitudes, and Victim-Perpetrator Acquaintance, Ben-David, Sarah; Schneider, Ofra.

ignificant negative correlations were found between gender-role attitudes and four measures of rape perceptions. "Traditionals" minimized the severity of all rapes more than "Egalitarians" did. As the acquaintance level increased, there was a greater tendency to minimize the severity of the rape, in the perceptions of the victim, the situation, and the punishment; the situation was characterized less as rape, and was perceived as less violating of the victim's rights and less psychologically damaging.

See also: Rape perceptions as a function of gender-role traditionality and victim-perpetrator association, Simonson, Kelly; Subich, Linda Mezydlo.

The marital rape scenario was characterized less often as rape and considered less violent, less of a violation of the victim's rights and less psychologically damaging to the victim as compared to the other scenarios. Observers holding less traditional gender-role stereotypes perceived rape scenarios overall as more serious and were less likely to blame the victim.

I could name more, but there are too many to sift through. These are the first two off the first search during the first database I used.

Your church doesn't teach those specific things, but extremist Christianity does teach the attitudes that support it. Submissive women and authoritative men do not a healthy relationship make, and the mix can contribute to unhealthy sexual aggressiveness in males.

@Jasper: No, I just think they are mis-representative. Sure, somebody who is Muslim kills somebody, but does that really matter? If they just go off and kill somebody for no reason and they just happen to be Muslim does not mean it's a terrorist attack.

But anyway, I'm just sick of arguing with you about race and what not, it's really not worth it to be honest as you'll never change your...ways and I won't change mine, no point in getting into a pissing match over it.

Examples of Christian bashing here:

Implying that all Christians are hateful, angry, and bigoted:

"Both of my parents are very Christian, but didnt want my sister and I raised around such anger, hatred, and bigotry."

Stating that Jasper is responsible for others lack of faith in God, from one who will look for any excuse for their hatred for Christianity:

"Honestly, jasper, "Christians" like you are 90% of the reason why the majority of the people leave the church. Great job chasing people away from God, jasper. :)"

It's "okay to bash Christianity if that's all you know":

"Never claimed to support Islam, in fact I dont support any "mass" religion. And I am sure there are hypocrites on there side too, but seeing as I dont know any Islams, Muslims or Jewish people, I'll stick to what I do know: Christianity"

Implying that Christianity is based on fear and hatred:

"She told me that people have been using Christianity as an excuse for fear and hatred for a very long time, but that even though how the masses choose to use his message may change, the way YOU feel about it doesn't. "

Christians aren't often the victims of hate crimes. People don't go out and beat up Christians after a terrorist attack.

Perhaps that is because Christians are not the ones bombing the World Trade Centers and attempting to hijack planes, buses, etc on a continual basis?

People don't threaten to put Christians in internment camps (Michelle Malkin, wrote a book about thinking this might be a good idea, and other conservatives agree)

Again, Christians, not an imminent threat to the country.

Racial profiling doesn't affect Christians wearing crosses, but it does effect Muslim men and women in traditional religious garb.

Read the above.

Point being, bigoted feelings about Muslims tend to lead to violence, whereas Christians aren't subject to the same sort of threat. And I agree with Amanda, if there was a Muslim on here spouting the same bigotry about Christianity, we'd be all over it.

Again, Christians are not the ones using violence against innocent Americans. Islamic terrorists are.

hmmmm, doesnt happen in America Jasper, please try again....

Are you implying that it's okay that muslims kill Christians, as long as they don't do it on American turf?

Well, that isnt the same as a Christian getting the head chopped off b/c they were Christians now is it? That happens in the middle east. And they didnt get blown up either dweedle dum, a plane crashed into them.

Are you defending them, Midnite?

Any stats on the gay hate crimes, jasper, that are universally perpetrated by Christians? Ever heard of Brandon Teena, the transgendered teen who was raped and viciously murdered in a small town in Texas?

Proof the people were Christians?

You're never going to learn on you? And yet you think St. Peter is going happily open the gates to heaven for you? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... I shall laught about that until I die probably.

It's okay to mock someone and be thrilled with the idea of them going to Hell, because you don't like them?

Bethany: I don't "support" Islam, but I do believe it warrants the same respect given to Christianity and Judaism

What respect have you and others here given Christianity and Judaism?

as there are extremists in every religion that makes said religion look bad (for extremist Christians, take a look at the country of Georgia, Jews, look at Israel, there are Jews that don't acknowledge the Holocaust).

As for the Phelps which you referenced, they most certainly are not Christians. This isn't just my opinion, they have repeatedly said that they are not there to convert people, that they don't believe in Jesus as Saviour, they conform to a warped interpretation of the Old Testament, and don't even subscribe to the New Testament. If you watch the documentary, you'll know this. Also, if you'll notice, the girls who belong to the family have admitted time and time again that they believe if they were killed that they would most certainly go to Hell, and for some weird reason, they're okay with that. I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound anything like Christianity to me. Is this what you believe Christianity is?

By the way, I never commented on the video above. That was so sad!! I love that song, it is perfect for the video.

It is truly incredible though, that one can be charged for manslaughter because he killed a wanted unborn baby, but unborn babies who are unplanned and the pregnancy unwanted are killed all the time and it's not considered a crime. How does one's worth depend on someone wanting you? It's insane...truly the thinking of a mad world.

"Both of my parents are very Christian, but didnt want my sister and I raised around such anger, hatred, and bigotry."

How is that "Christian-bashing"

Im Christian! My parents are Christian!

Im bashing myself and my entire family? Because I can't stand how many church congregations have turned in to political pulpits to pass of ignorance and bigotry on religion, which OFFENDS ME AND MY FAMILY... AS CHRISTIANS?

Riiiiiight. And we're being too PC?

Amanda, if one doesn't believe enough in their own religion to believe that Jesus is the Savior and that other religions are in error, then I find it difficult to believe that person is a Christian. I hope you do not take this as an insult, it's just, what do you base your faith on, if not the Bible? And if the Bible, do you believe the verse that says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me"?

If so, then why do you have a problem with Christians believing that their religion is right, and other religions are wrong?

Obviously, Christianity asserts that no one can be saved without Jesus' redemption, based on what the Bible teaches.

And as for your comment about Jews and other faiths not believing their faith is the true faith...then how can you say they actually believe in what they say they believe? I mean, if you believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world, you're not going to believe that all other religions are correct, or else you really don't believe that Jesus is the Savior. If you believe that Allah is God, and that the Koran is correct, you will believe that all people who do not believe in Allah are wrong. If you believe that Judaism is correct and that Jesus is not Savior, then you're not going to embrace Christianity. Dont you see? If you believe in something, you stand for it.

Now see, if I believed in something and saw people misrepresenting what I believed in, I wouldn't bail out, I would stand firm and try to be a counter-example.

Instead of talking about the awful Christians you know, why are you out there being a better example of what Christians shouldbe?

When total lunatic pro-choice people do things to harm your cause, you don't cut and run and suddenly become pro-life because you don't want to be associated with the "crazies" (would that it were that easy to get you to our side).

Instead you point out where they are wrong, and use yourselves a examples of what more rational pro-choice people are like.

I seem to remember Danielle calling God a "prick" a few months back. Doesn't sound like tolerance to me!

@Bethany: If you look at the religious problems in the country of Georgia, you'll see that it is certain leaders of the Georgia Orthodox Church that is committing crimes against Muslims and even OTHER Christians in the country, it was just an example of Christian extremism (which does exist).

And I'm curious, you can denounce Phelps and people like him as "not really being Christian" but you appear to agree with the fact that all Muslims must be terrorists because of the actions of a vocal minority? You have to realize that the Islamic terrorists are *not* really Muslim either as they are in violation of the Qur'an and Muhammad's teachings in their denunciation of Jews and Christians because Muhammad respected Jews and Christians because they worshiped the same God (albeit in different manners). Muhammad also loved Jesus Christ, though he didn't believe him to be the Son of God, he still recognized him as an amazing man worthy of respect.

Anyway. :)

For the record the Unitarian church is not Christian. So being raised Christian in one does not make sense.

From their website:
To quote the Rev. Marta Flanagan, "We uphold the free search for truth. We will not be bound by a statement of belief. We do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed. We say ours is a non-creedal religion. Ours is a free faith."

Agreed Less - its exactly because of people like Jasper that my parents made the decision to bring me up as a Christian at Unitarian Universalist Church, but since there isnt a UU Church near me now, I've been going to the United Church of Christ, which I've found to be quite similar. Both of my parents are very Christian, but didnt want my sister and I raised around such anger, hatred, and bigotry.
Posted by: Amanda at June 6, 2007 09:54 PM

@MK: You can still be a Christian if you go to UU church, as you can still believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and what not.

Rae,

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that someone would call themselves "strong" Christians and not belong to a "Christian" church...

hmmmm, doesnt happen in America Jasper, please try again....

Are you implying that it's okay that muslims kill Christians, as long as they don't do it on American turf?

Well, that isnt the same as a Christian getting the head chopped off b/c they were Christians now is it? That happens in the middle east. And they didnt get blown up either dweedle dum, a plane crashed into them.

Are you defending them, Midnite?

Bethany,

Those are stupid stupid questions. Why in hell would I defend Terrorrists? That is just stupid, you do know that I am from the South the right? I love America, and have no problems with my country.

I was simply pointing out that wehat Jasper was trying to say didnt happen in America. He said he had video footage of Christians, getting their heads cut off. As far as I know, Christian killings happen in the middle east, not on our own turf. Secondly, he was implying something towards 9/11 and said no "they blow up buildings". Well, they didnt blow themup, the crashed a plane into them, and that is no where near close to the same to thing. And the fact that you think I am defending them, makes my skin crawl. I never once inplied that, Bethany, and you know it.

I firmly believe, if you're going to talk about what happened on 9/11, you should do so with respect, and not say things that simply are not true. Over 2,000+ people died that day, and Jasper's comment, was not showing that day the respect IT DESERVES.

And, you're right, I dont really supprt any m,ass religion, b/c I dont think a person should be judged on their religion, just like they shouldnt be judged on their race, gender, or sexual preference. And I dont like the fact that some religions, declare "Holy Wars" and kill thousands in the name of their God.

@MK: Perhaps it could be because they don't agree with the "politics" that some Christian churches get involved in or practice? Perhaps they are more interested in a personal relationship with God as opposed to a "congregational" relationship that you get at a "Christian" church? I would think that at a UU church you are more able to personally forge a relationship with God, as the church doesn't make you think of God in one specific way, but I could be wrong.

"Secondly, he was implying something towards 9/11 and said no "they blow up buildings". Well, they didnt blow themup, the crashed a plane into them, and that is no where near close to the same to thing."

what's the difference Midnite?

here you go Rae: a whole country supporting terrorism, report, just today:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/document_iran_c.html

and all you have is Fred Phelps...

@Jasper: I really don't give a rip about Iran, it's not the "whole country", it's the government and the people are too afraid of their government to speak out, because in Iran, it is illegal to disagree with the government and the punishment is death.

And I have several Balkan countries that have Christian extremists that fight against OTHER Christians. I suggest you look up "Georgia" for one.

@Jasper: And I read that article and it screams "speculation" to me. It doesn't make sense that the hardcore Shi'a regime of Iran would even remotely help the hardcore Sunni Taliban.

"@Jasper: And I read that article and it screams "speculation" to me. It doesn't make sense that the hardcore Shi'a regime of Iran would even remotely help the hardcore Sunni Taliban."

It's from the liberal abc news.....

Rae, Iran's government is run by muslims mullahs, do you know more about the koran then they do?

@Jasper: Perhaps not, but from what I do know from what I've learned about the Qur'an, the Iranian mullahs are just as fake of Muslims as the Phelps are fake of Christians.

"@Jasper: Perhaps not, but from what I do know from what I've learned about the Qur'an, the Iranian mullahs are just as fake of Muslims as the Phelps are fake of Christians."

OK good, I hope thats the case....

Jasper,

You are really trying my patience. No bomb was used in 9/11. A bomb and a plane are two different things, and if you dont know that by now, I dont think I can help you, or anyone can for that matter.

@Rae:

Do you know the difference between a bomb and an airplane?

Rae: And I'm curious, you can denounce Phelps and people like him as "not really being Christian" but you appear to agree with the fact that all Muslims must be terrorists because of the actions of a vocal minority?

Where in the world did I say that ALL muslims are terrorists?

I am simply pointing out the fact that all kinds of Christian bashing appears to be acceptable to you all, based on comments you've heard, or just by people you happen to dislike, however, being wary of islamic believers is somehow bigoted on our part, when we have ample cause to be concerned about them than you do about Christians. Do you have a legitimate concern that your nation will be under physical attack by Christian terrorists anytime soon? Of course not. Because Christianity does not condone terrorism. If it did, I would completely understand if you were wary of Christians. If the Bible itself within Christianity condoned terrorism, that is.

Why are you not nearly as outraged about the terrorist attacks as you are about Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell? Isn't there something strange when someone harmless is considered more of a threat than the ones who, by following the Quran in it's literal context, with promises of rewards for those who fight in the name of Allah, kill and torture thousands and thousands of Americans in terrorist attacks and are STILL attempting to do so?

Please keep in mind that I am not talking about ALL muslims.

Those are stupid stupid questions. Why in hell would I defend Terrorrists? That is just stupid, you do know that I am from the South the right? I love America, and have no problems with my country.
I was simply pointing out that wehat Jasper was trying to say didnt happen in America. He said he had video footage of Christians, getting their heads cut off. As far as I know, Christian killings happen in the middle east, not on our own turf. Secondly, he was implying something towards 9/11 and said no "they blow up buildings". Well, they didnt blow themup, the crashed a plane into them, and that is no where near close to the same to thing. And the fact that you think I am defending them, makes my skin crawl. I never once inplied that, Bethany, and you know it.

Okay, Midnite. I'm sorry if my questions offended you. It did seem that you were being awfully defensive of them, and that is why I asked. But I am thankful that you cleared it up for me. I don't believe it was a stupid question. It was an honest question.

I firmly believe, if you're going to talk about what happened on 9/11, you should do so with respect, and not say things that simply are not true. Over 2,000+ people died that day, and Jasper's comment, was not showing that day the respect IT DESERVES.

What did he say that was disrespectful about 9/11?

Remember :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE9TLgCVLBM&mode=related&search=

Goodness that video makes me cry every time. : (

I think it is disrespectful that he said what's the difference between a bomb and a plane crashing into a building. I *dare* him to ask that to a survivor of 9/11. I bet he would get slapped.
-------------------------------
"Secondly, he was implying something towards 9/11 and said no "they blow up buildings". Well, they didn't blow them up, the crashed a plane into them, and that is no where near close to the same to thing."

what's the difference Midnite?

Posted by: jasper at June 7, 2007 10:18 AM
---------------------------

There is a difference, and I find it very disrespectful to imply that there isn't one Bethany. Sorry, you are right those were not stupid questions, but It did irritate me that you thought I was defending 9/11 and terrorists. I think killing anyone solely on their religion is hypocritical, and just plain sad (just like it is sad to kill someone based on their skin color or their sexual preference).

I think it is disrespectful that he said what's the difference between a bomb and a plane crashing into a building. I *dare* him to ask that to a survivor of 9/11. I bet he would get slapped.

I think he said this because at the time it appeared you were making light of the attack by saying well it wasn't someone slashing someone with a knife, and it wasn't done on American turf, and no ,it's not a bomb, it's a plane attack. You may not have meant for it to come across that way but it did appear to be defensive of them, and I think what his point was, what is the difference between the two? The result is the same...death.

Oops, sorry, I mixed up two thoughts in one sentence....My heads not all here today.

Oh, Bethany. I've never heard that 911 call. I'm so upset.

It is a truly upsetting video, isn't it? I just get so angry when I think of what happened to those poor people that day. I hope that America will always remember, and will always be prepared to defend and protect it's country when necessary.

I have never seen that video Bethany, that is horrible, omg, I tearing up @ work again...
It was not meant to come across as being defensive, I was just trying to point out that there is a difference..

OK, I gotta go breathe outside, that video was too much for me.

I understand, Midnite...just wanted you to understand where he was probably coming from.

The video was shocking and horrible. It brings back so many terrible memories. One good thing about it...It is good to refresh our memory from time to time in this...it helps to draw Americans together.

I drew this picture the month of the Sept 11 attacks:
http://www.sketchesbybethany.net/midstsmall%20copy.jpg

That's a very good drawing Bethany.

I dont think Jasper even tries to see where I am comming most of the time. He doesnt bother trying to understand b/c I am "different" than him, so I dont deserve his time. Which is a reason, I am quite fond of you Bethany, you are interested in "why" I think something or how I came to that conclusion.

@Bethany: I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying and I apologize for my comments.

"Not. As you say this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME"

ahh, no I don't."

Jasper, you've attacked Erin and I ruthlessly since I started posting here, and you've even made me lose my temper. Guess what? There's a whole world out there that doesn't agree with your ideals. Better go start fighting them too, and I hope I get to see the look on your face when you get beaten back for it. Ignorance is bliss, so they say, so that must mean you're living in a freaking paradise right now.

Bethany, Oh that video. How horrible. I'm sure that the 911 operator knew there was no saving them. Absolutely horrifying! With most of those phone calls you can just hear a person's final words before their deaths. I remember that day well. A very strange silence filled the air and the sky was orange.

Midnite- thank you.

Rae, no problem, I know it's easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood in a debate forum. :) Too bad we don't have any smilies in this place. ;) I love those.

Heather I wonder how it must feel to be that 911 operator, hearing those last words. I wonder if it affect them psychologically? I don't think I could handle it... It would be so hard...

@Bethany: I know! I have an emoticon addiction...I use smilies all the time.

I wonder if there is an Emoticons Anonymous? Or perhaps a Lemmings Anonymous for those few brave lemmings who refuse to die?

Bethany, actually I am in the medical profession, and that was very hard to listen to. I know that feeling of trying to keep the patient calm when you know that they are very panicked and very sick. Scared too. That scream.... I would never forget that!

MK & Bethany - that quote about UUism is true, in that its not a GROUP creed, because instead, you're encouraged to develop your own relationship with religion. For me, and for my family, that was with Christianity and the teachings of Jesus. So it is ABSOLUTELY possible to be UU and Christian at the same time. My parents reasoning had nothing to do with dislike of Christianity, but rather, dislike for a lot of Christians. They wanted me to belong to a religious community, they wanted to raise my as a Christian, but they did not want to bring me to a church where I'd be constantly hearing what an evil sinner my gay aunt is or where people insist on bringing politics in to religion... because you all cant deny you've heard things like "if you care about your faith, vote for so-and-so!!" My parents believe, and I agree with them, that those types of things should never enter a house of worship.

Rae, take a look at the smilies I have on my discussion board, yes, I am an addict too! :D
http://www.preciousinfants.net/forums/misc.php?do=showsmilies

@Bethany: I cannot see them, I have to "log in" or "register" or something.

Amanda, what are your beliefs, exactly? I mean, I know you say you are a Christian, but exactly what do you believe, regarding salvation? I'm curious.

Oh I'm sorry, Rae....I forgot those security measures were on the board. There are TONS of smilies on that page though..

@Bethany: It's ok, I'll take your word for it. :) Though on the topic of smilies, I'm fond of the "devilishly smiling" smilies...like when you have an "evil" thought...:-p They are so adorkable.

And for the record, I am starving and I wish I could eat but I can't eat yet because I can't make a mess in my house because we're having a showing tonight. Boo-hiss.

Bethany -

eeek, thats sort of broad. Are you familiar with the United Church of Christ at all? Id say they represent my belief system quite well - in fact if there had been a UCC congregation closer to where I grew up, Im sure Id have been brought up there instead of the UU church.

I guess the most important thing that defines my beliefs is the fact that I have no desire to PROVE my faith... because thats what it is... its faith. My belief that it is indeed, as you said before, the right faith, is important and meaningful to me and maybe to people Im close to, but its not going to be important to anyone else. So do I personally believe that belief in Jesus has more merit than belief in Allah? Yep. But can I prove that? Nope. And until I KNOW that its true, I do not think its right to pass off my BELIEFS as FACTS. I think that it is good to have faith in something and not ever have to worry about justifying it or proving it to anyone else. and THAT is where I differ from the Christian Right.

Does that make sense or even *sort of* answer your question?

hehe.. sorry, its just tough to answer in this type of forum, and its also difficult, because I know I can be totally open about my beliefs with people like you and MK, but after I post this, it will only be a matter of time before Jasper chimes in about what a phony, pathetic, cowardly, loser, whatever-insult-of-the day I am - so Im kind self concious while I was trying to explain it too...

Okay, I honestly don't want to insult you. I promise that is not my intent at all. So please understand that anything I say is written in complete honesty and curiosity.

What do you think Faith means?

If you believe something is true, should you worried with whether others believe it is true or not? Should other's opinions be the basis of your having faith and being willing to publicly proclaim your faith to the world?

For instance, your beliefs on abortion...there are many people out there who disagree with you, based on the fact that an unborn child is a human being and therefore has rights under the constitution. However, so far, this hasn't changed your stance, because right now, you believe that abortion is a right that every woman should have, because in your opinion, it would be wrong to rob them of their bodily autonomy, regardless of whether the baby is human or not.
At least that's what I've gathered.

However, you have faith in your stance, that it is correct, and you are fighting to prove that your opinion is correct, regardless of the fact that everyone doesn't share the same viewpoint. You are not accepting of everyone's ideas on the subject, or you would not be fighting to keep the right to abortion legal.

Okay, now contrast that with your stance on Christianity. I still don't really know what you believe that sets you apart from others who are a non-Christian, but you say until you can prove something is true, you're not going to assert that it is true. So if this is true, do you really even believe your faith to be true? You say you do, but your actions seem to be that you aren't really sure whether it's true or not.

It seems very confusing to me...you seem to not really know what it is that you believe. Do you believe in the Bible, or do you just believe in the idea of Jesus as a good teacher from the past, or....?

Okay,