I don't care how many abortions one has. I don't consider it any of my business. I do believe, however, that along with information during the first abortion, literature should be given out regarding proper birth control methods, alternatives to abortion, things along those line. Information about Crisis Pregnancy Centers should be included: I find the places horrible, but to be truly educated the woman should know about them as well. A certain amount of birth control should be given out as well: condoms and hormonal.

"Information about Crisis Pregnancy Centers should be included: I find the places horrible"

why is that?

Actually, repeat abortions testify to the dismal failure of comprehensive sex ed, because the very industry most promoting (and being paid for) comprehensive sex ed is the industry committing the abortions. You'd think they'd do a better job of it in their own facilities, particularly since Planned Parenthood in particular conducts such consumate patient care, according to its patients on this site.

I agree with Less.

I don't care how many abortions a person has. I'm okay with trying to minimize the number, because preventing pregancy through BC is cheaper and easier
(and yes, less health risks)

There is a "puritanical view of sex" that pops up in these discussions from time to time.

Luv, I would never personally go to a CPC as they tend to exaggerate claims, occasionally outright lie, and are usually associated with a church. Even if I had already decided 100% that I was keeping the baby and had done all of my own research so that the first two wouldn't particularly matter, I have huge issues with organized religion. I'd be a hypocrite if I ever used a CPC.

One abortion makes you guilty of murder.

exaggerate claims about what? outright lie about what? maybe they are usually associated with a church because in general people involved in churches really care about people in need, the centers are there to support pregnant women, I can't imagine anyone having a problem with a CPC!
But what was I thinking?!? I'm talking to Pro-aborts!

Number of abortions isn't really what I care about, but apparently the woman should be directed to some education and BC options.

Come to think of it... I think everyone should have an abortion... not just hypocritical prolifers.

There was a report that came out recently where women called various CPCs and asked a few basic questions, posing as patients. One CPC worker said that when you abort, the developing milk in your breasts hardens into tumors, inevitably giving you breast cancer. Why would I support people who are that ignorant?

100 fetuses in the womb, 100 fetuses in the womb... suck one out to make some room... 99 fetuses in the womb. 99 fetuses in the womb... 99 fetuses in the womb... suck one out to make some room...98 fetuses in the womb.

I kill me!

The correct terminology there, uh, Cameron, is "I SLAY me." Get it right. That is all.

Cameron, no thanks. I don't want some moron scraping my uterus out with a sharp object. I don't want to be flat on my back at the mercy of some under educated pervert. I don't want to develop low self esteem. I don't want to be a murderer!

Abolish all abortion! Make abortion a felony! All other murders are. Abortion shouldn't give you a free pass. Murder is murder.

"Abolish all abortion! Make abortion a felony! All other murders are. Abortion shouldn't give you a free pass. Murder is murder."

someone has hijacked Heather's screen name and posting insane comments claiming to be her.

Sorry, I was having a Cameron moment.

keep going heather!

"There was a report that came out recently where women called various CPCs and asked a few basic questions, posing as patients. One CPC worker said that when you abort, the developing milk in your breasts hardens into tumors, inevitably giving you breast cancer. Why would I support people who are that ignorant?"

I'd like to see that report! I'm also quite sure that is exactly what that person said! I don't think they want your support anyway! I would like to know why someone who wants to have an abortion would call a CPC for information anyway!

Yes, Heather, he seems to be trying to provoke people today.

TODAY?!?

Odd, you don't have too much to say about Cameron's posts Hal.

Government Study on CPCs

Read the third page in particular. I also know women who have called into CPCs to get information about various programs or actually gone into CPCs to get said information. They were pushed around and several of them were preached at. Often they were given false information such as seen in the above report.

Women should be told what CPCs provide, however: both positives and negatives should be outlined. As I previously said, all information needs to be given to a woman so she can make the choice that is best for her.

good point Heather. I was struck by his comments:

"100 fetuses in the womb..."

and

"Come to think of it... I think everyone should have an abortion... not just hypocritical prolifers."

the first was just odd, and not funny or even provocative. The second one I don't understand either. I've never heard a pro-choice person advocate abortions for everyone. Some people don't think abortion is the right decision, for moral, religious or health reasons. I assume he didn't mean it literally and was just trying to get a rise out of people.

I commented on Heather's post because it seemed a bit out of character. I guess my silence about Cameron's was more damning, as it implies it was not out of character.

Sorry Hal, I know that most of the time pro choicers don't agree with him anyway. Someone on the pro choice side gave him a good tongue lashing about a week ago. He's just such a joke!

Less, please. you can't even answer simple question about your stand on abortion.

Monday, July 17, 2006
Public Health
Federally Funded Pregnancy Resource Centers Mislead Teens about Abortion Risks

A new study released by Rep. Henry A. Waxman finds that federally funded pregnancy resource centers often mislead pregnant teens about the medical risks of abortion, telling investigators who posed as pregnant 17-year-olds that abortion leads to breast cancer, infertility, and mental illness.

87 percent of the centers reached by investigators provided false or misleading information about abortion. Under the Bush Administration, pregnancy resource centers, which are also called “crisis pregnancy centers,” have received over $30 million in federal funding. The new report assesses the scientific accuracy of the information they provide. Female investigators, who posed as pregnant 17-year-olds seeking advice about an unintended pregnancy, telephoned the 25 pregnancy resource centers that have received capacity-building funds from the Department of Health and Human Services.

Twenty of the 23 centers reached by the investigators (87%) provided false or misleading information about the health effects of abortion. According to the report:

The centers provided false and misleading information about a link between abortion and breast cancer. There is a medical consensus that induced abortion does not cause an increased risk of breast cancer. Despite this consensus, eight centers told the caller that having an abortion would in fact increase her risk. One center said that “all abortion causes an increased risk of breast cancer in later years," while another told the caller that an abortion would “affect the milk developing in her breasts” and that the risk of breast cancer increased by as much as 80% following an abortion.
The centers provided false and misleading information about the effect of abortion on future fertility. Abortions in the first trimester, using the most common abortion procedure, do not pose an increased risk of infertility. However, seven centers told the caller that having an abortion could hurt her chances of having children in the future. One center said that damage from abortion could lead to “many miscarriages” or to “permanent damage” so “you wouldn’t be able to carry,” telling the caller that this is “common” and happens “a lot.”
The centers provided false and misleading information about the mental health effects of abortion. Research shows that significant psychological stress after an abortion is no more common than after birth. However, thirteen centers told the caller that the psychological effects of abortion are severe, long-lasting, and common. One center said that the suicide rate in the year after an abortion “goes up by seven times.” Another center said that post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is “much like” that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and “is something that anyone who’s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.”

Documents and Links
False and Misleading Information Provided

Less, please. you can't even answer simple question about your stand on abortion.

I told you, jasper, that when you provided any proof that such a situation could happen, I would answer. Have you provided said proof? No? Well, there you go.

So, what part of that is a lie?

PAS actually mimics PTSD.

...an abortion would “affect the milk developing in her breasts” and that the risk of breast cancer increased by as much as 80% following an abortion.

That, for starters. There isn't an excuse for such blatant idiocy.

...post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is “much like” that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and “is something that anyone who’s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.”

Another bit of misleading information...

Less, you have said you never had an abortion. How on earth would you know???

PAS does mimic PTSD, you're correct, but not "anyone who's had an abortion" suffers from PAS. From what I hear, the proportion is fairly small, actually. The probability isn't 1 that you're going to get PAS after an abortion.

And as PTSD manifests differently depending upon the root cause, it will be NOTHING like Vietnam PTSD.

Less, you, Cam and other pro-deathers have no right to use the bodily autonomy argument again. Because you have no credibilty on this at all.

question: If she can't abort a 39 week old fetus ( let's say from some reason she doesn't want a c-section or deliver) she wants to abort,.. why can't she abort if she has the right to bodily autonomy.

jasper. Prove the situation can occur, then we'll talk.

If her doctor agrees that abortion is necessary, I'd go with him: he's the medical professional.

Well, talk to the woman whose aborted baby appears to her in a dream. How about women who claim they have heard a crying baby in the night and wake up hysterical? Are they crazy, delusional, psychotic? What is this? I call it a flash back. Some women claim that the sound of a vacuum cleaner will "freak them out" because it sounds like the abortion suction machine.

Heather, do you have proof to back up the vacuum cleaner claim? I know that some women have problems with it: I'm sure that for some women, abortion is a traumatic procedure. The reality of it is, however, that not all women experience any sort of trauma or regret. Making a claim that all women do is factually inaccurate.

"jasper. Prove the situation can occur, then we'll talk.

If her doctor agrees that abortion is necessary, I'd go with him: he's the medical professional. "

Less, how do you know that it can't occur?
No Less, the abortion would not be necesary.

Why doesn't this woman have the right to choose, her choice is to have the abortion. why doesn't she have control over her body? you believe in bodily autonomy don't you?

geez, and I thought you were pro-choice.

Jasper, jasper, jasper. For someone who seems to base his entire argument on twisting the words of others, well, you just aren’t particularly good at it.

First off, have you ever heard of burden of proof? If you make a claim, you prove it can happen. That’s how debate works: you make a claim, I ask for proof, you prove the claim or concede. So prove that your situation can occur, jasper, or concede that it can’t and your question is pure lunacy.

If, at 39 weeks the fetus is shown to have a severe deformity or a genetic disease, abortion could be necessary. If the fetus is dead at 39 weeks, termination of the pregnancy is necessary.

Not all. Heck, there are plenty of women on this site that say that their abortion/s don't bother them. A friend of mine claims to have no regrets about her abortion. So be it. I have been to many web sites where women DO talk about the vacuum cleaner noises, babies crying in the night, and nightmares about their abortion. I really don't think it's one great big conspiracy.

"If the fetus is dead at 39 weeks, termination of the pregnancy is necessary"

this is not an abortion, this is COMPLETELY different!

"From what I hear, the proportion is fairly small, actually. The probability isn't 1 that you're going to get PAS after an abortion. "

are these the kind of FACTS your asking of others?

luv, I was just reading that and thought the same thing. If the baby died in utero from natural causes, it is not an abortion.

According to the U.S.-based Coalition on Abortion/Breast Cancer, 27 out of 35 studies published since 1957 have found a link between breast cancer and abortion. Just a fact I thought I'd throw out there.

Less wrote: ...an abortion would “affect the milk developing in her breasts”

Less, is this what you are talking about?:

"How Abortion Increases Risk

When you become pregnant your body produces a surge of the hormone estrogen. This causes the cells in the breast to multiply rapidly in the first half of the pregnancy. In the second half, other hormones are produced to stop this rapid growth and to direct these cells to perform new functions such as producing milk. These last changes protect the cells against cancer-causing substances. When you have an abortion, all of those millions of cells are left immature and growing too fast. Without the second surge of hormones to turn off the growth and direct the cell, they are left open and vulnerable to cancer. "

If so, what is inaccurate about this? This is true.

and that the risk of breast cancer increased by as much as 80% following an abortion.

During the same period of the late 1970s, key experimental research on labo-
ratory rats was providing another avenue of verification of the ABC Link. Jose and
Irma Russo, a prominent husband-and-wife research team at the Michigan Cancer Foundation in Detroit (they are now at Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia)
conducted a landmark study in which rats were exposed to standard, cancer-pro-
ducing doses of a known chemical carcinogen after different pregnancy outcomes.
16
Almost 80 percent of rats who had undergone surgical abortion developed breast
cancer (similar to rats not allowed to become pregnant at all), while those allowed a
full-term pregnancy were completely protected from developing the disease.
Not only do experimental animals provide verification of epidemiological data,
but their bodies can be examined microscopically during and after the experiment.
In this way, the Russos have been major players in the discovery of the changes that
take place in the mammalian breast before, during, and after pregnancy. In the
photograph on the following page, lobules type 1 (LOB 1) represent those very
primitive structures present in the breast at birth. Lobules type 2 (LOB 2, not pic-
tured) are present in greatest number after puberty, but before any pregnancy. Only
toward the end of a full-term pregnancy (about 32 weeks gestation in the human
species) do most lobules become lobules type 3 (LOB 3; see accompanying photo-
graph on following page), which are much denser and elaborate, and capable of
lactation. Lobules type 4 are those which are actively producing milk. The progres-
sion from type 1 to type 3 requires an enormous amount of cellular multiplication.
Lobules type 3 are also terminally differentiated, meaning the cells’ ability to multi-
ply has switched off. Part of the development process in the breast, and in most
types of tissue generally, is this terminal differentiation. Cancer, whether of the
breast or any other tissue, is a disease wherein cellular multiplication or proliferation
is out of control. Therefore, it is only those cells which are still capable of prolifera-
tion, such as the cells in lobules type 1 and 2, which are vulnerable to the effects of
carcinogens. Carcinogens can cause cancer by causing mutations in the cellular
DNA. Such abnormal cells, if they are then stimulated to proliferate, can ultimately
progress to malignancy.
Knowledge of the development of breast lobules thus provides a coherent
explanation of the experimental results obtained in the rats treated with carcino-
gens. In rats not allowed to complete a pregnancy, most of the lobules would be type
2, in which most cancers are known to arise due to lack of full differentiation.
Treating these rats with a carcinogen therefore resulted in most developing breast
cancer. In contrast, rats allowed to bear a full-term litter of pups were resistant to
the carcinogen, since most of their breast lobules had developed into types 3 and 4.
In other words, the carcinogen would have caused just as many mutations, but any
abnormal cells that may have been generated were incapable of proliferation, and
therefore incapable of becoming cancerous.
The facts about lobular development in the breast also provide a clear expla-
nation of the epidemiological data. That is, the completion of a full-term pregnancy
provides some level of permanent protection against breast cancer, because it leaves
a woman with fewer vulnerable, undifferentiated cells which can give rise to can-
cer. The younger a woman is when she has her first full-term pregnancy, the greater the protection, since it means there would be less time overall during which her
breasts contained a large percentage of such vulnerable cells. The breast cell situa-
tion with induced abortion is that not only are the cells not yet differentiated, but
because of the growth stimulation of pregnancy hormones—mainly estradiol—dur-
ing the incomplete pregnancy, there are more of those cancer-vulnerable cells in the
breasts than were there at the start of the pregnancy. Consequently, most epidemio-
logical studies have shown higher risks in women who have had an induced abortion
than in those who had not become pregnant at all.
Knowledge of the actions of estrogen and progesterone in terms of their ef-
fects upon breast growth completes the coherent picture of induced—but not spon-
taneous—abortion and breast cancer risk. As long as some progesterone is present
(called a “permissive hormone” in this situation), estradiol (which, recall, is a form of
estrogen) is a strong promoter of cellular proliferation in the breast. The greatest
growth stimulation occurs in the first and second trimesters of a normal pregnancy
by far. Importantly, estrogen is implicated in most known risk factors for breast
cancer; everything from taking artificial estrogens in the form of birth control pills or
postmenopausal estrogen replacement therapy, to beginning menstruation at an early
age and/or having menopause at a later age (both of which cause a greater lifetime
exposure to estrogen). Even non-reproductive risk factors such as postmenopausal
obesity and chronic alcohol consumption are explained in terms of such women
having higher chronic circulating levels of estrogen (because fat cells actually make
estrogen and alcohol impedes the liver’s ability to degrade estrogen.
http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/Brind_NCBQ.PDF

Delibrately lying and deceiving people? Try again. Show me something where people are not going by studies that prove the things they say...where they're saying something that has absolutely no basis in reality. These are obviously not such a case. The women in CPC's do NOT lie or deceive or manipulate women.

thank you bethany!

When you go in for most procedures, the doctor will sit you down and go over any risks. I've never had any of them hide anything from me. Even if one of the risks was death. So many women I know who have had abortions all pretty much told me the same thing. They watched a movie about the abortion procedure, got undressed, went to the op. room, had the procedure and went to recovery. One of my friends had the twilight sleep drug. She said "I only saw the doctor while I was passing out." She said that he said "hello" while she watched him put on his gloves.

so sad

No problem, luvmy5kids....There's sooooooo much more where that came from. :D

Thank you Bethany. I was adding on to your post a bit. Why didn't any of these women see the abortionist before the procedure? Why wasn't breast cancer ever explained to any of them?

wonder what my odds are having nursed 5 kids? :)

My belief... A lot of women would change their minds if they were better informed. The less the abortion clinic tells the truth, the more abortions will be sold.

"Women should be told what CPCs provide, however: both positives and negatives should be outlined. As I previously said, all information needs to be given to a woman so she can make the choice that is best for her."

This is such an interesting statement as really Less, you could just substitute PPs for CPCs and then it would be totally accurate.

Why don't PPs give women all the information they need to make an informed decision. States are fighting to pass bills so aboriton mills are required to give even the most basic medical information women should get prior to her decision.

Why does the pro-choice movement continue to fight this legislation?

Again, many women feel there is no choice once they enter the abortion mill. They are not told of any options available to them.

and they are worried about CPCs!
Let's see CPCs want to keep woman and babies safe and alive.
Abortion clinics want to kill.

wow that is a tough decision who I'm gonna listen to!

Since Less, Cam and Midnite and other pro-aborts are having so much trouble answering the question below, I've decided to help them out a little and answer it.

The question:
If a woman can't abort a 39 week old fetus (let's say from some reason she doesn't want a c-section or deliver) she wants to abort,.. why can't she abort if she has the right to bodily autonomy.

answer:
we'll Japser, she can't abort because that's a live baby who is about to be born, that would very cruel, barbaric and killing human life.

see that wasn't so hard Less, was it? I think my 6 year old could've answered it.

jasper I'm so glad you are here to go round and round and round and round...... in circles with them because I don't have time to. I don't think I have the patience to either!

*clapping* Right answer!!!

Jasper:

I am not laughing nor do I consider you answering questions for me funny. I've always answered your questions, once again, not my problem if you cant be bothered to read it or you simply cant comprehend what I am writing...

"...an abortion would “affect the milk developing in her breasts” and that the risk of breast cancer increased by as much as 80% following an abortion. "

What a bold faced lie!

It's more like 150%.

:)

Here's a question for Jasper. Suppose a 39-week pregnant woman shoots herself in the belly, killing her fetus. Should she be punished? For infanticide?

Somgy: "Here's a question for Jasper. Suppose a 39-week pregnant woman shoots herself in the belly, killing her fetus. Should she be punished? For infanticide?"

yes

Heather4Life, you wrote: " Some women claim that the sound of a vacuum cleaner will "freak them out" because it sounds like the abortion suction machine."

Fortunately, abortion using a silent suction device--known technically as a 50cc syringe--is increasingly popular.

Bethany, cite a study for the paragraph you cited. Also, remember that rats are not humans. The incidence is not going to be the same: taking statistics for rats and applying them to humans is inaccurate. And I noticed that you didn’t mention a thing about the center that claimed all women suffer from PAS, and that it was identical to PTSD brought on by tours of duty in Vietnam. I’d call that pretty deceiving, how about you?

Heather, remember that information about abortion, as well as giving birth, adoption, parenting, and pregnancy is all at your fingertips: it’s called the internet. If the women chose to be informed, they could be. It isn’t that difficult.

Sandy, I don’t know any women who doesn’t know that she can keep the child, give it up for adoption, or abort it. That’s what the choices boil down to.

Jester, honestly. I asked you a direct question and you ran away. Perhaps your reading comprehension is below the norm: here’s the question again. Prove that the situation you’re describing ever actually happens. Also, putting words in other people’s mouth is bad form, dear child. Perhaps you should learn to debate before posting: it might make you a shred more creditable. Then again, it wouldn’t take much to bring you up from zero, eh?

These arguments are insane.

Using the same cerebral mechanics we should kill all people because the major cause of old age is living.

Abortion is wrong whether or not it increases breast cancer. And, I wouldn't for one moment think that the Lord Almightly, the maker and designer of our bodies, would violate His own law which is we reap what we sow. He creates life, we destroy it, there's a price to pay.

The killing of a child in the womb probably has more devastating effects on the murdering mother than we can know......physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, ad infinitum. It is simply ludicrous to try to hash out whether or not abortion should be made legal or illegal based on medical statistics, etc. Statistics can be manipulated by the sponsor of the study and the desired outcome. Ever heard of "liars for hire".

There's a bunch of 'em on this site In Training.

His Man, wow! You always come along and nail it every single time! Right, right and right again!! If you knew that abortion could have consequences on just ONE woman, why would/should it ever be okay? It NEVER should be okay. We do know that every abortion kills a baby. I honestly believe that the women who say that abortions don't bother them are lying. A lot of them become substance abusers or they become depressed. Perhaps they never think it's related to the abortion itself.

It's also like people saying " Well,abortion is legal, therefore it's okay." No it isn't. Just because it's legal doesn't make it moral. It's definitely NOT okay!

Smog, I am to the point with you that I don't even feel like answering you anymore. Anyway, one more time won't hurt. How about the women who have already been damaged from this? Past tense. How do you undo that? I don't think you get it at all. You and I are not on even on the same page.

Well, for one, Less, your paragraph you posted did NOT claim that the center claimed that ALL women suffered from it. It said women do. Which means some women, or many women, but not ALL women.

Your quote again:
"...post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is �much like� that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and �is something that anyone who�s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.�"

And the study that was cited is from Henry A Waxman, a STRONG PRO ABORTION ADVOCATE.

See, Less, the reason I didn't answer that one is because I already you about it in another thread and I figured you would have remembered it. I guess not.

HENRY A WAXMAN ON ABORTION:
* Voted YES on allowing human embryonic stem cell research. (May 2005)
* Voted NO on restricting interstate transport of minors to get abortions. (Apr 2005)
* Voted NO on making it a crime to harm a fetus during another crime. (Feb 2004)
* Voted NO on banning partial-birth abortion except to save mother�s life. (Oct 2003)
* Voted NO on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research. (Feb 2003)
* Voted NO on funding for health providers who don't provide abortion info. (Sep 2002)
* Voted NO on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)
* Voted NO on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)
* Voted NO on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)
* Voted NO on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)
* Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)

You mean...you were able to find a pro-abort willing to tell stories that made pro-life people look bad? YOU DON'T SAY!

Objective evidence? I think not.

As for my first paragraph, here's the source:
http://www.bcpinstitute.org/booklet3.htm
The Breast Cancer Prevention Institute

Now you have yet to tell me what is innacurate within the quote.

First line:
When you become pregnant your body produces a surge of the hormone estrogen.

Is this true or not? Yes or no?

This causes the cells in the breast to multiply rapidly in the first half of the pregnancy.

Correct? Yes or no?

In the second half, other hormones are produced to stop this rapid growth and to direct these cells to perform new functions such as producing milk.

Do you agree?

These last changes protect the cells against cancer-causing substances.

Agree?

When you have an abortion, all of those millions of cells are left immature and growing too fast. Without the second surge of hormones to turn off the growth and direct the cell, they are left open and vulnerable to cancer. "

Prove to me how this could be inaccurate.

Heather, remember that information about abortion, as well as giving birth, adoption, parenting, and pregnancy is all at your fingertips: it’s called the internet. If the women chose to be informed, they could be. It isn’t that difficult.

Then why do you have a problem with CPC's not providing referrals for abortion?

Here's a question for Jasper. Suppose a 39-week pregnant woman shoots herself in the belly, killing her fetus. Should she be punished? For infanticide?

Did you really think that was a trick question? lol

Yes Bethany, What about Laci Peterson? After Laci went missing, the entire nation was looking for Laci AND Connor. Not Laci and her "fetus." Scott was charged with 2 counts of murder. If anyone had failed to recognize Connor as a person, Laci's mother would have had a conniption fit.

Why was Scott charged with 2 counts of murder, and an abortionist is never charged with murder?

Yes Bethany, What about Laci Peterson? After Laci went missing, the entire nation was looking for Laci AND Connor. Not Laci and her "fetus." Scott was charged with 2 counts of murder. If anyone had failed to recognize Connor as a person, Laci's mother would have had a conniption fit.

Exactly, Heather.

Bethany, 8:09a, I agree: lol.

Actually, I can't think of any question that would trip up pro-lifers, unlike the multitude available to toss to the other side.

SMAUG,

Heather4Life, you wrote: " Some women claim that the sound of a vacuum cleaner will "freak them out" because it sounds like the abortion suction machine."

Fortunately, abortion using a silent suction device--known technically as a 50cc syringe--is increasingly popular.

So, are you admitting that the sound of the vacuum
is disturbing to the women? Or perhaps it's just disturbing to the abortionist...reminds me of the silencer on a gun. I wonder, do abortionists have flashbacks when they hear vacuums?

I love when you guys confirm our arguments...sort of like scoring a touchdown for the wrong team!
Thanks.

Hal, Heather4life, Luv and all,

While I give great credit to Jill for not banning Cameron, I must also acknowledge that she probably lets him stay on because he is such an obvious example of what we find wrong with the pro-choice arguments.

Every time he says something heartless, crude or vulgar, he just exemplifies how ridiculous the pro-choice side can sound. Except he doesn't bother hiding his absurdity with rational "sounding" arguments. Rather he cuts to the chase and shows the arguments in all of their insane glory.

Between him and Smaug, we could just sit back and let them destroy the pro-choice movement all by themselves.

Kudos to you Hal, for acknowledging how ludicrous and offensive he is. It is rare that anyone on the pro-choice side does anything but blow him kisses. Wonder where those kisses land. Sounds like a lot of a**kissing to me. Don't you guys realize the damage they do to your side? Why don't you reign him in?

Keep up the good work Cam and Smaug. And you other pro-choicers...just keep aligning yourself with him...makes our job so much easier.

Thanks to all!
mk

Awesome posts, MK! You are so right on the money! :)
How is your leg?

Thanks Bethany,

It's still there. Unfortunately, so is the dog.

Although she did eat an ant trap yesterday...supposed to be very deadly to pets...

Except I can hear her barking so she must be immune.
Just my luck!

lol :D

MK, luv ya! Miss you. Get well. Come back soooooon!!!

Thanks Heather,

Little by little...slowly I turned, inch by inch, step by step...(the three stooges)

I'm coming!

Bethany, yes it does claim that all women suffer from it:

One center said that the suicide rate in the year after an abortion “goes up by seven times.” Another center said that post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is “much like” that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and “is something that anyone who’s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.”

Read the bolded part, please. And where, exactly, is the proof that the suicide rate goes up at all after an abortion, particularly SEVEN times?

There is a correlation between abortion and breast cancer, yes. But it isn’t caused because the milk in your breast hardens and becomes cancer, which is what the center said. It’s caused because of estrogen: frankly, while the correlation is there, causation isn’t. Miscarriages also cause an increased risk of breast cancer.

I don’t have a problem with CPCs not providing referrals for abortions. That’s not what CPCs are for. Women should be aware that they exist, and be aware of the services they provide: but women should also be aware that the information that they provide is incomplete at best.

Conner Peterson was at the age of viability, from what I hear, and I believe that Scott made sure to kill him as well. Conner was also definitely wanted and obviously planned for. That Conner was at the age of viability is the only justification for the second murder charge I can think of, beyond the fact that it makes a death sentence easier if there are multiple counts of murder.

One center said that the suicide rate in the year after an abortion “goes up by seven times.” Another center said that post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is “much like” that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and “is something that anyone who’s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.”

Is there a quote I can read from the original woman or pregnancy center, who supposedly stated this and what her actual words were...not the paraphrasing, or words taken out of context, from an abortion supporter with an obvious agenda against pregnancy centers?

There is a correlation between abortion and breast cancer, yes. But it isn’t caused because the milk in your breast hardens and becomes cancer, which is what the center said. It’s caused because of estrogen: frankly, while the correlation is there, causation isn’t. Miscarriages also cause an increased risk of breast cancer.

Again, I'd like to see the quote, listen to the tape, etc...anything that can really prove that these women claimed these things in the way they were said to in this "study". We pro-lifers have actual evidence of planned parenthood centers have lied to their patients, or covered up rape, etc... MOUNDS of it. It's been posted here before... tapes, videos, documentation, lawsuits, etc. You know, REAL evidence. How come you ignore these or make excuses for them, but you take quotes taken out of context by a man obviously with a huge agenda against pro-lifers as solid evidence? Where's your objective evidence, Less? You know, that kind of evidence that you demand from the pro-life side? What do you have besides this study which was made by a huge pro-abortion advocate who wouldn't even consider Laci Peterson's baby's murder a crime in and of itself, according to his voting record?

Read the bolded part, please. And where, exactly, is the proof that the suicide rate goes up at all after an abortion

From abortionfacts.com:

"Suicide is rare among pregnant women, but much more common after induced abortion. It is never re-ported under maternal mortality from abortion, of course, even though it is causative.

"The suicide rate after an abortion was three times the general suicide rate and six times that associated with birth.... the rate for women following a live birth was 5.9 per 100,000; following miscarriage 18.1; following abortion 34.7." They note that women frequently get short term "post-natal blues after having a baby, but that this rarely translates into suicide, and that the initial stress of having a child is transitional, the over-all effect having a positive effect on women’s health." M. Gissler, Abortion/Suicide Link,Br. Med. J., Dec. 6, 1996"

From worldnetdaily.com:

"MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
Study: Abortion increases suicide risk
13-year examination also finds higher rate of accidents, homicide
Posted: December 2, 2005
2:41 p.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Women who have an abortion face a 248 percent greater risk of suicide, accidental death or homicide in the following year, according to a newly released 13-year Finnish study.

The survey also found the suicide rate among women who had an abortion was six times higher than for women who had given birth in the prior year and double that of women who had miscarriages.

The study was conducted by Finland's National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health and published in the European Journal of Public Health. The researchers studied data from the years 1987 to 2000 on all deaths among women of reproductive age, 15 to 49.

While the risk of death among women who had given birth in the prior year was lowest, death from suicide, accidents and homicide was highest among women who had an abortion in the previous year.

Women who had been pregnant had less than half the death rate of women who had not been pregnant. The risk of death for women who had suffered a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy did not noticeably differ from women who had not been pregnant.

The findings confirm other studies carried out in the United States, as well as Finland, that showed an increase in the death risk of women who have abortions.

In 1997, a government-funded study in Finland found that women who had abortions were 3.5 times more likely to die the following year than women who had given birth.

Furthermore, researchers looking at death records linked to medical payments for birth and abortion for 173,000 California women discovered there was a 62 percent higher chance of death for aborting women than delivering women over the eight-year period that was examined.

The study also found that the increase in the risk of death was from suicides and accidents. It showed a 154 percent higher risk of death from suicide and 82 percent higher risk of death from accidental injuries.

The main author of the California study, David Reardon, said record-linkage studies like this one are key to getting an accurate picture of pregnancy associated mortality rates.

"In most cases, coroners simply have no way of knowing that the deceased recently had an abortion, which is why these new record-linkage studies are so important," Reardon said.

Government health officials in Finland found in a recent study that 94 percent of maternal deaths involving abortion could not be identified by merely looking at a death certificate. This discovery applies to the data published by the Centers for Disease Control in the U.S.

Also, previous studies draw links between women who get abortions and an increase in substance abuse, anxiety, sleep disorders, suicidal thoughts, psychiatric illness, relationship problems and risk-taking behavior, which could easily lead to death by suicide or accident.

Beyond that, authors of the new Finland study suggested there might be common risk factors between having induced abortion and dying from accidental injury. They called on medical professionals to be aware of these risks.

"Women seeking abortions should be informed that abortion is associated with significant physical and mental health risks, and it also deprives them of numerous physical and mental health benefits associated with childbirth." Reardon said.

He added, it's "especially important for health care providers to be aware of these risks and the risk factors which identify those women who are at highest risk."

"Providing women with the resources to help them resolve emotional issues relating to past abortions will not only increase their well-being but may possibly save their lives," he said. "

* A recent literature review concluded that abortion is a risk factor for "mood disorders substancial enough to provike attempts of self-harm."11

* Women who ended their first pregnancy by abortion are five times more likely to report subsequent substance abuse than women who carried the pregnancy to term and four times more likely to report substance abuse compared to those whose first pregnancy ended naturally.12

* Research published in the prestigious Archives of General Psychiatry acknowledges that many women experience post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) after an abortion. In one of the longest-running studies conducted on women after abortion, researchers found that over time, relief and positive emotions relating to the abortion declined and negative emotions increased. PTSD symptoms include dreams or flashbacks to the abortion, a general numbing of responsiveness not present before the abortion, and difficulty falling asleep.

* In the same study, a survey of women two years after their abortions found that 28 percent of women were either indifferent about or dissatisfied with their abortion decision and 31 percent said they were uncertain or would not have an abortion again.13

* The circumstances surrounding an abortion decision can impact a woman, as well. According to research published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, "Abortion for medical or genetic indications, a history of psychiatric contact before the abortion, and mid-trimester abortions often result in more distress afterward. When women experience significant ambivalence about the decision or when the decision is not freely made, the results are also more likely to be negative."14

* After an abortion, women can experience psychological reactions ranging from guilt feelings, nervous symptoms, sleep disturbance and regrets. Also, as many as 10 percent of women "experience serious psychiatric problems following abortion."15

* As many as 60 percent of women having an abortion experience some level of emotional distress afterwards. In 30 percent of women, the distress is classified as severe.16

* A Finnish study of suicide after pregnancy found that:

"The suicide rate after an abortion was three times the general suicide rate and six times that associated with birth"

Suicides were more common after a miscarriage—and especially after an induced abortion—than in the general population

An increased risk of suicide after an abortion indicates either common risk factors for both suicide and abortion, or harmful effects of induced abortion on mental health.17

* Welch researchers examined abortion and suicide and concluded, "our data suggest that a deterioration in mental health may be a consequential side effect of induced abortion."18

* A study of couples involved in first-trimester abortions in Canada found that abortion can be highly distressful for both men and women. Researchers found that both before and after the abortion, “study couples were found to be much more distressed than control[s]” couples. High levels of distress among women “correlated with fear of [the abortion’s] negative effects on the relationship, unsatisfying relationships, and not having had a previous child.”
19

12David Reardon, et al., "Abortion and Subsequent Substance Abuse," American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Vol. 26, No. 1 (2000): 61-75.
13Major, Archives of General Psychology, 2000.
14Paul Dagg, "The Psychological Sequelae of Therapeutic Abortion—Denied and Completed," American Journal of Psychiatry Vol. 148, No. 5 (1991): 583-584.
15J.R. Ashton, "The Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion," British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology 87 (December 1980): 1120-1122.
16Hanna Soderberg, et al., "Emotional Distress Following Induced Abortion: A Study of its Incidence and Determinants Among Abortees in Malno, Sweden," European Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology and Reproductive Biology Vol. 79, No. 2 (1998): 173-8.
17Mika Gissler, et al., "Suicides After Pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: Register Linkage Study," British Medical Journal 313 (1996): 1431-1434.
18Christopher Morgan, "Mental Health may Deteriorate as a Direct Efect of Induced Abortion," British Medical Journal 314 (1997): 902.
19Pierre Lauzon, et al., “Emotional distress among couples involved in first-trimester induced abortions,” Canadian Family Physician, October, 2000, 46:2033-2040.
http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/bioethics/abortion/A000002267.cfm'

Less, did you bring up the fact that on several occasions there have been reports of CPC centers LYING to women about their pregnancy test results? Yeah...they'd tell the girls they weren't pregnant just so they would go past the 22 week mark and be unable to get an abortion without a ton of hassle and interruption to their life. I say again: They tell pregnant women that they are not pregnant in order to decieve them into carrying a pregnancy they don't know they have. That is MESSED UP.

"The killing of a child in the womb probably has more devastating effects on the murdering mother than we can know......physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, ad infinitum."

What we do know is pregnancy has more devastating effects physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, etc...

That is messed up, Erin, I agree, if it is true. And any worker who does this should be immediately fired.

But if it's not true, it's really messed up that someone would make up a story like that to make pregnancy centers look bad.

Erin, there have been several times that planned parenthood has told someone that they are pregnant when that was not true. I seem to remember women taking in samples of a man's urine and being told that the test was positive.

I agree that both of these siuations are messed up.

Lauren- I hadn't heard that. And Bethany, generally, I believe that they are fired for things like that. Which means someone somewhere is thinking, at least.
It worries me when someone's own agenda gets in the way of the safety of another though- no matter what kind of situation it is.

Yes, Lauren's right.... I have read of many documented cases where a woman had an abortion and was not even pregnant. It truly is messed up. There are sick people out there, no matter where you go.

Bethany- I find it very nice to know that advocates for both sides are disgusted at the lengths certain extremists will go to. If lolos didn't do things like that, I think opposing sides would get along a lot better and probaby accomplish a lot more :-/

Erin: "It worries me when someone's own agenda gets in the way of the safety of another though- no matter what kind of situation it is."

Yes, I agree Erin, PP's agenda does effect the safety of unborn babies and pregnant woman. thanks

Sorry, jasper? I can't hear you over the sounds of your constant team killing.

How come everytime I agree with anyone or anyone agrees with me you come and putz with it? Is it really that bad to JUST ACKNOWLEDGE faults within each organization, without pushing our agendas?

Im thinking that, personal feelings about abortion aside, this repeat abortion thing cannot be a good idea for post abortion stress. I have been told several times that abortion should be used as a last resort; Im not understanding how someone whose birth control fails will responsibly fail to be more careful.

As a side note, women who have abortions are required to have a follow-up exam six to eight weeks later. Until then, they are not to have sex or take baths or use tampons. So I dont understand how someone who took her abortion with any measure of seriousness would be pregnant and know it in four weeks.

"Sorry, jasper? I can't hear you over the sounds of your constant team killing."

Erin, I was agreeing with you! you said:

"It worries me when someone's own agenda gets in the way of the safety of another though- no matter what kind of situation it is."

and I said:

Yes, I agree Erin, PP's agenda does effect the safety of unborn babies and pregnant woman. thanks

Jasper, I don't think that PP's agenda is any different from a woman's crisis center in the argument presented here. Seriously, you need to grow up.

Let's make this interesting. Take a child and ask him if two organizations lying to women about pregnancies are wrong. Hell, ask your six year old. If the child says yes to both, then we know they're wrong.

Seriously dude, you're bringing down morale. That's more votes for you to get kicked off the island, my man! Do you really want that?

Dan,

Let's make this interesting. Take a child and ask him if two organizations lying to women about pregnancies are wrong. Hell, ask your six year old. If the child says yes to both, then we know they're wrong.

Let's make it more interesting. Take a child of six and ask him if killing your children is wrong. Heck, ask a child of 2. Or 10. Guaranteed they will all be horrified at the idea.

"And a little child shall lead them..."

Depends on what child you ask. Most of them will just say, "Can I go back to riding my bike?"

Samantha T. I wanted to add that this sort of thing happens a lot. I could name about 10 people that I know who have had more than one abortion. I really couldn't tell you why this is, but I guess these women just feel that we ought to accept their right to "CHOOSE" It doesn't seem to matter to them if it's their first abortion or their 100th abortion.

I have also read that many women feel that their abortion made them a bad person anyway, so in a way it's a form of self abuse/punishment. I know, I know.... but I have read about this. The woman has an abortion. It can cause low self esteem in some. Some women become promiscuous following abortion. [I know a lot of them too.] So the vicious cycle repeats. They don't feel that they will ever be forgiven, so they just keep on getting pregnant. Keep aborting.

Heather, I just know as a person who has been on both sides of the debate that the majority of pro-choicers see abortion as a necessary evil. I know that PP is supposed to provide information to help women keep from becoming "repeat offenders," but Im wondering how often this actually occurs.

PS I read somewhere that PP has a limit on the number of abortions they will provide for one patient. Its terrible to think that that was necessary, but its better than allowing unlimited access. I think the

"Depends on what child you ask"

we shouldn't expect to much from the smart a** Dan, you can include Erin is well.

I mean, here two people who had their son killed instead of giving him up for adoption. we have to remember that they are their own God. Nobody knows better than they do.

Samantha T. oops looks like your post cut off. Anyway, I wanted to mention that we also have abortion clinics other than PP. I can think of 4 off the top of my head[in my state] I'm really not sure where the 2 women I've mentioned in previous posts had gone. One of them had 7, and she went to the private clinic for a few. The other had 9. I really wonder if anyone had ever told them that they could have had their tubes tied.

Per Cameron,
"What we do know is pregnancy has more devastating effects physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, etc..."

Honestly, you can NOT be saying that pregnancy is more devastaing than abortion.

So again I have to ask what study supports this statement?

If you can source one, I want the link.
I have never met a pregnant woman who would agree to this statement. I can name several women who have had abortions that have suffered devasting effects for all of the above reasons.

Right you are Sandy. When a woman is pregnant for 9 months, birth is the gift is at the end of it all. A beautiful baby is born. An abortion just leaves one ugly mess. I have known women who have aborted, only to become pregnant immediatly afterward. Why would this happen? It's called regret and what is called "The replacement baby" Abortion is NOT natural. Pregnancy and birth are natural.

"we shouldn't expect to much from the smart a** Dan, you can include Erin is well.

I mean, here two people who had their son killed instead of giving him up for adoption. we have to remember that they are their own God. Nobody knows better than they do."

The key word in smart @$$ is SMART, Jasper. You know what? Maybe I do have a fully loaded God complex that is cocked, locked, and ready to rock. However, Erin and I did what was best for us, and I'll be damned to an eternity of misery if I'd go back on my decision. Sometimes, Jasper, you gotta stop martyring yourself for the rest of the world and put yourself in first priority.

And by the way, don't attack Erin for something I said. Only cowards attack someone without provocation, and surely you don't want to make all pro-lifers out to be cowards, do you?

Think about it, old man.

Dan:
If abortion is a moral wrong, what's "best" for you couldn't possibly include it. I'd imagine your decision to abort followed a judgment that abortion isn't wrong. However, I often suspect that many people don't even weigh the life of the unborn in the balance, and include only their own personal cost/benefit data in the calculus. "what was best for us" is the kind of language that grates pro-life ears, because it doesn't acknowledge the claim of the unborn to a share in that calculus.

Cowards attack without provocation? That would make abortionists . . .

Rasqual,

Rich?

rich slimes. I love these fill in the blanks.

"Cowards attack without provocation? That would make abortionists . . ."

Yes, only a coward will attack someone without provocation. You don't see people who are considered heroes attacking the meek and innocent, or someone who didn't deserve it. That same thing applies to the real world. I suggest you start living in it.

"If abortion is a moral wrong, what's "best" for you couldn't possibly include it. I'd imagine your decision to abort followed a judgment that abortion isn't wrong. However, I often suspect that many people don't even weigh the life of the unborn in the balance, and include only their own personal cost/benefit data in the calculus. "what was best for us" is the kind of language that grates pro-life ears, because it doesn't acknowledge the claim of the unborn to a share in that calculus."

No, I don't consider the unborn during the first trimester to have any weight in the decision that we made, nor do I believe it holds sway over anyone else. Once again, like I said to Jasper, I will not go back or second guess myself. I know what we decided to do was for the best, and didn't hinder us or cause us to lose sight of our goals. Call me selfish, call me thoughtless, and call me cruel, but sometimes it pays off to look out for numero uno.

egotism

noun

1. An exaggerated belief in one's own importance: egoism, self-importance. Informal bighead, bigheadedness, swelled head. See self-love/modesty.
2. A regarding of oneself with undue favor: amour-propre, conceit, ego, egoism, narcissism, pride, vainglory, vainness, vanity. Slang ego trip. See self-love/modesty.

Ever hear this? EGO = Ease God Out!

"No, I don't consider the unborn during the first trimester to have any weight in the decision that we made, nor do I believe it holds sway over anyone else. Once again, like I said to Jasper, I will not go back or second guess myself. I know what we decided to do was for the best, and didn't hinder us or cause us to lose sight of our goals. Call me selfish, call me thoughtless, and call me cruel, but sometimes it pays off to look out for numero uno."

typical athiest, again, very self centered, always looking out for his own selfish reasons. these type of of people are souless creatues...

"typical athiest, again, very self centered, always looking out for his own selfish reasons. these type of of people are souless creatues..."

@ Jasper: Call me souless. I really don't care. I know that I walk a path of knowledge and integrity, and I don't stumble blindly through a forest of forced ignorance and naivety. I'm not an atheist, either. I'm a nihilist. Get it right, my friend. I don't hate or dislike those who are religious, but fanatics like you irritate me to the point of where I can't stand it anymore and I have to say something.

@ MK:

Idiot: Noun
1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person

In other words, what you are portraying yourself as. I thought you were smarter and higher than the level you just stooped to.