Why or why don't you agree wth this statement:

"As a taxpayer, I'd rather pay $300 for a welfare mom's abortion than pay thousands of dollars to raise her kid for 18 years."

I disagree because it puts a price on human life.

I agree with Bethany.

Of course I disagree with the statement. I could care less the taxpayer "cost" of rising a child. If the alternative is paying for the child to be killed, I'll galdly pay to raise her.

Think about it, what if someone said "well Lauren, you can either pay 300 dollars for us to kill this child, or pay 10,000 dollars for the child to be kept alive. If there was no other option, I'd pay the 10,000.

Sorry, I left out the end quote.

Should read:

"well Lauren, you can either pay 300 dollars for us to kill this child, or pay 10,000 dollars for the child to be kept alive. "

If there was no other option, I'd pay the 10,000

I disagree with the statement as well. Not only does it place a price tag on human life, it's a false dilemma. Our society created "welfare moms" in the first place, by deciding that the way to "deal with the poor" was to throw money at them. This tactic doesn't work as it simply turns poor people into people who are poor unless we give them money. Unless we believe that the poor are stupid or incapable, this is ridiculous. So do we? Do we believe that the poor are somehow inherently "less" so that they cannot be taught or equipped to care for themselves? Are they like crippled children who must live at home under their parents care forever?

And now we see how, in this culture of abortion and euthanasia, where our thinking about the poor leads -- to the idea that it makes more sense to kill their children than let them live and cost us more money.

Rae,

I know this has nothing to do with the topic but I can't get on here very often and really wanted to address your comment from another post...

@MK: No, that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'm wondering why God gave us free will in the first place if he knew that we would sin and therefore hurt him. And I wonder, how could Jesus make a law like that? He's not God, sure he's God's son (or an entity? The trinity confuses me so much, my atheist friends asked me a few days ago to explain the purpose of the Holy Spirit and I was like, ummm...it's the essence of God? I am pretty sure that's not correct, and I told them that...gah!) but not God and I thought only God made the rules. So to answer your question, if God made it so that we all had no choice but to believe in him, he could make it so by taking away our free will could he not?

As for the last thing, I'm definitely open to the idea there is a God, heck, I'd go as far as to consider myself a Diest, but I have issues with the Bible (I honestly don't believe it is the Word of God) and if you haven't noticed, I have major issues with religion in general. So I don't necessarily reject God per se, I reject certain portrayals of God though, because they truly don't make sense to me. Does this make sense? Probably not, I'm still working through it myself. But I suppose the fact that I may believe in God but not the Bible is just an excuse for me to sin without fear, but that is not the case. I do try to live a good life, I really do, I was raised Catholic and some of my morals are in fact derived from Christianity/Catholicism but yeah. :)

As a Catholic, I believe that Jesus IS God. No difference whatsoever. So is the Holy Spirit. So the "Word of God" can come from any of them.

As to taking away our free will, that's what I'm asking you.

Yes He could have taken away (or more accurately, never given it to begin with) our free will and made us obey Him. But then it wouldn't be love because Love can never be forced. He desired people to Love Him and in doing so desire to obey Him. But Love is first.

This is why I asked you if He made a new law, revoking our free will, and turning us into automatons that obeyed Him automatically, would you have an easier time accepting Him?

You said no, and in a way answered your own question. Take it a step further and tell me why you wouldn't believe in Him if He controlled everyone so that no one could commit sins or do evil. (I realize that if the scenario were true you would believe in him by virtue of said law, but I'm asking if, in theory, this would make it easier to accept God.)

Personally, being "given the freedom to give up my freedom in order to become free" is the greatest draw to Christianity for me. The fact that I have the "choice" to follow or reject Him, to do good or do evil, makes the "choice" to follow and do good all the more powerful.

mk

Rae,

also...As for the last thing, I'm definitely open to the idea there is a God,

Perhaps it's not that the answers you are coming up with aren't appealing. Maybe you're asking the wrong questions.

If you believe in a god, or in God, then you acknowledge someone or something that is all powerful. I would think you'd be asking yourself on a daily basis, "Who or what is this guy?"

I read books on Satan all the time for the same reasons...If something that powerful has the ability to influence my life, I know that I want to know everything about him/it that I can.

Don't you feel the same way about God? Don't you want to know who this "being" is that perhaps has the power to control your surroundings? Are you really comfortable just leaving things run their course? In a way that is giving Him as much control as I do, except you are unaware of it. By the same token, if there is an evil counterpart (which does not imply and equal counterpart), then perhaps you are giving him/it the same power over yourself without even realizing it. I can't imagine a more important question.

Is there a God? Who is He? What role do I play?

mk

Personally, I dont want to pay for either. I'd rather keep my money and spend it something I need or want. Which is why I dont like Social Securtity. I am paying into something, that probably will not be around when I am old enough to collect it.

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul"? - Jesus Christ, circa, AD 33.

You can't put a price on a soul. From God's perspective every single soul is worth more to Him than all the world. We should treat and protect borns and unborns with this perspective in mind.

I don't want one red cent going for an abortion. Not my tax money!!!

I don't want any of my tax money going to the war in Iraq, prisons, or abstinence-only sex ed. Particularly abstinence-only sex ed. Do I get a choice in the matter? Not particularly. Why should abortions be any different?

One question that comes to mind. Why do we think this mother is going to be on welfare for 18 years? Just because she keeps the kid means that she will not get out of 'the system'? I'd rather not pay for the abortion or the 18 years. But I would be more than happy to help her pay for an education and/or job training.

It's like the saying:
"If you give a man a fish you will feed him for a day, If you teach a man to fish you will feed him for a lifetime."

Let's teach the welfare Moms to fish, that way we are paying into something that is more beneficial to her family and to society.

MK - I hope you don't mind me getting in on the conversation but.... ;-)

Rae-

Did anyone answer the Holy Spirit question for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Spirit

It is well written and gives different perspectives for the different believes....

It's not "thousands" of dollars for her to raise her kid. To raise a kid today in the USA costs TENS of thousands of dollars.

A few thousands would barely cover the costs of labor and delivery.

Both should be funded, and if you're worried about how much your taxes are, I can think of numerous areas of federal expenditures which far exceed welfare and medicaid in amount, but have little or no merit.

wow! SoMG do you have kids?

wow! SoMG do you have kids?

Taxes need to go up anyways. We don't have remotely enough funding for public health care and feeding/housing the homeless. A touch of socialism never hurt anyone.

we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?

A touch of socialism never hurt anyone.

You're kidding, right?

we rarely hear about finding the cause of things like cancer, we only hear how many millions are being spent on finding medicine (money) that will cure.

Bethany- actually, no. Don't freak out right away though- I'm a fan of capitalism. I think that it is the most effective system we have. I also think though, that every proposal of an economic system has a basis in a good theory- meaning that there are valuable aspects that can be taken from any of them. A more socialistic approach to issues of poverty would be vastly more effective than what we are currently doing. It means raising taxes, yes- but I honestly don't mind, as long as it is going towards helping the plight of my fellow man. I can skip out on a few leisures if it means a family gets to eat, you know? And socialized health care has it's faults, but it's so much more fluid and useful than the system we have in the US. I still think yeah, if you have more money, you should be able to have the best doctor you can afford, but there NEEDS to be a more easily accessable system to the unemployed and uninsured- the system with the best solution to that issue is socialism. I'm not saying "YAY SOCIALISM!"- it's just another form of compromise.

we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?

Great point.

"we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?"

...basic problem: human nature. People tend to go INTO those fields because they are incredibly lucrative. If we could simply make people less greedy, I'd say go for it, but it's impossible to reverse human nature on a scale like that- which is why a governmental measure is the only thing that is going to change the basic conditions of the health care system. And either way, it's going to take time.

Erin, taxes don't need to be raised, our government needs to manage our money in more useful ways.

There is so much pork built into every bill that gives huge funding to utterly trivial things. But someone, somewhere is getting money from the Alaskan Winter Hair Society so they're given a nice healthy grant.

A great "governmental measure" would be to cap insurance rates and hospital costs.

Unlike America, most of the industrialized world has a problem with profiting from the sick and dying. We'd sooner let our own suffer and die prematurely and empty handed rather than embrace anything remotely socialistic because we've been so indoctrinated during the red scare.

the sick and dying are a huge profit in America!

I don't have a huge fear of socialism, I just don't think socialized medicine is the best answer. We need to work on a solution that supports healthcare for the poor, but doesn't create a system where it takes 5 years to see a dentist.

Oddly enough, we think we have the best medical system in the world. While US Biotech is are certainly productive when it comes to new "treatments" and devices, the number and outcomes of health problems among Americans is looking more like Mexico than the rest of western civ.

I'd take a wait over nothing.

Socialized is the only way to go. Any government amalgum with private insurance companies will simply result in exploitation of government revenues more so than any benefit to patients. Kind of like the social security reform proposals. Wall street's itching for that one.

"Socialized is the only way to go"

Yes, lets wait 6 months for our heart-bypass, meanwhile we could end up dead.

Jasper- better than "can't pay for the heart bypass? You're going to die no matter what!"

Hi Erin, did you have a safe trip home? I hope.

I'm no expert on heath care, but arn't most senoirs and young children covered under medicaid, medicare, etc....

I think my Mom's on one of these and she recently had a cancer operation which was fully covered.

Honestly, I'd rather have socialized health care.

Heh, I couldn't even afford my hospital bill from January (I was uber-dehydrated).

"healthy" people don't make money for the greedy i mentioned above.

off topic, but 4 men from the "religon of peace" were plotting to blow up JFK airport. FBI Official Believes Attack Could've Been Worse Than 9/11.

Terrorists Plot Attack Against JFK Airport

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_153122828.html

@MK: About the forced love not being as strong as freely-given love, couldn't have God made it so that freely-given love and forced love are equal?

"This is why I asked you if He made a new law, revoking our free will, and turning us into automatons that obeyed Him automatically, would you have an easier time accepting Him?"

Chances are I would, as I wouldn't have free will nor would I have choice in the matter as I would automatically believe. :)

"Take it a step further and tell me why you wouldn't believe in Him if He controlled everyone so that no one could commit sins or do evil. (I realize that if the scenario were true you would believe in him by virtue of said law, but I'm asking if, in theory, this would make it easier to accept God.)"

Well, I probably would believe in God if He controlled everybody and there were no sins and no evil as I more or less wouldn't have a choice. However, if I were the person I am today, with the same free will and I saw how people were so obedient and following God's laws and there was no evil in the world, chances are that yes, I would believe at that point as God is more or less showing that He has the power to destroy our sinful nature to make us the perfect people we were meant to be.

"Don't you feel the same way about God? Don't you want to know who this "being" is that perhaps has the power to control your surroundings? Are you really comfortable just leaving things run their course?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
This kind of explains my views about the concept of God a bit better...perhaps that could answer this question, though personally I'm comfortable with letting things run their course because trying to understand a divine being like God would be impossible and just lead to a headache.

"Is there a God? Who is He? What role do I play?"

I am thinking there could be a divine being that we could call God, but I honestly don't think he's as "involved" in the affairs of man as we like to think he would be. *shrugs*

I hope this helps-ish? But thank you so much for answering my questions. :)

@luvmy5kids: I agree...pork-barrel spending needs to DIAF ASAP (die in a fire as soon as possible) :D

@Jasper: I see you are still bigoted...can't say I'm surprised. Just so you know...I dated a Sunni Muslim from Lebanon who had a friend die in the August War last year. He's not an extremist even though the Israeli's killed his friend. Last I checked, he hasn't blown himself up, nor has he blown anybody else up, nor has he thought about it. But I must be one hell of a sinner for dating a Muslim. Oh noez!

@Valerie: Have you ever listened to "Pretty Balanced"? They are an indie band from Ohio I believe and they are like piano rock. I recommend them, they are pretty tame and have really pretty songs and aren't quite "metal" like Within Temptation as they are piano based, but it's gorgeous music. :)

Hey Rae,

Why am I bigoted?.... Don't blame the Iraelies, their trying to defend their country.

You are bigoted because you appear to think that all Muslims are like the extremists. They aren't. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. It's kind of like how not all Christians are nut-cases like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson.

And no, the Israelis were not defending themselves. They made the first strike. They were wrong. They could have tried a bit harder for a diplomatic solution OR they could have done a stealth-surgical method to remove the hostages as they did before in Egypt (I think that's the country). Instead they just bombed the crap out of Lebanon and all it did was make Hezbollah look good.

I have one question for all those that believe socialistic health care would be best - Do you really want your health to be a political debate? Because that is what will happen. An 'internet friend' of mine moved to a 'nanny state'. She loved it at first. Especially the free health care. But when her husband got really sick, the hospital that they went to didn't have enough money to treat him. The govt only dishes out so much money, and when they run out - too bad, so sad - you aint gonna be treated there. They had to go to several hospitals to find one with money left to help them. Here's the deal - you have to get sick at the beginning of the year, not the end. People who get sick at the end of the year get screwed because the money is running out and the hospital can't treat the one person when they have hundreds that need treating too.

When it comes to helping the poor and the homeless - we need to restructure the welfare system. It is probably one of the more corrupt government programs. People who need only temperary help to get them through the bad time are being rejected because of the people that are on it full time and/or the people that are abusing the system. These temporary people are usually families that end up losing everything because someone was using the system when they could have easily gotten a job and worked. Free handouts can become addictive. Welfare needs to be something like the Habitat for Humanity. The people getting the house have to work 250 hours in helping with building the house (of course, physical limitations are concidered) and then they still have to pay an interest free mortgage. The families that received help from Habitat have a feeling of accomplishment and pride. They helped in helping their loved ones. But with welfare, you just receive the money without any feelings of dignity. If the people who can work do work for the welfare money (I'm sure many government jobs could be filled this way), then welfare will have enough money for the people who cannot work (disability etc.) or the people that need the temperary help. When I was really sick and needed help with housing I was told I couldn't get help because I didn't have any children. I was single, no family around, in and out of the hospital so I couldn't work full time and since I didn't have children I was SOL. HUH? At the time, I knew someone who was living in free housing, she had kids but she would dump them off at anyone's house so she could party. She said she couldn't work a full time job because didn't have enough money for daycare. (remember her 'dumping' her kids? she never paid those people - I know because I was one of them) She was working a full time job as a stripper but the place paid her under the table so she didn't have to tell anyone she had it. She made more money than me on any given day, but she got free housing and I was SOL. That is what needs to change. No one ever checked her out to see if she was telling the truth. One phone call to the apartment complex and they would have found out that she had money. (no, I'm not bitter. aaahhhhh)

And my two cents on health care - tort reform would do a world of good.

Rae - I will check out that band.... Thanks!

"You are bigoted because you appear to think that all Muslims are like the extremists."

Did I say that? No Rae. But, I wouldn't any more muslims into the country. It's just to dangerous, not all are extremists, but 25% of U.S. muslim men support terrorism froma recent pol.

"They could have tried a bit harder for a diplomatic solution"

Bull** for that, no negotiating with terrorist.

"And no, the Israelis were not defending themselves. They made the first strike. They were wrong."

No, hezobollah did, they took their soldiers. I was hoping they would've gone into Syria too.

Pat Robertson is not a nut case.

@Valerie: I do agree with the restructuring welfare, because all it does really is keep the poor, poor, because once they get a foothold, all their help is yanked away and they tumble back into poverty. It's a suck-tacular situation.

I also think prescriptions shouldn't be so bloody expensive. It ticks me off that pharmaceutical companies feel it's ok to practically rob people who really need those medications with such insanely high prices.

Here's the band's myspace page so you can listen to some of the music (I know, it's myspace, but hey, it's the only place you can hear them really)
http://www.myspace.com/prettybalanced

How have you been lately? I just found out that my grandma had uterine and ovarian cancer back in the mid-90's and had chemo and radiation and I NEVER knew this. I was shocked/surprised and now concerned... :-/

i agree with the welfare thing valerie. In Wi we have "badger care" It's health care for families that have low income. I have a friend with 5 kids and they have been one it for 14 years. They are self imployed. I think that is crazy. If they can't get their business to turn enough profit in 14 years than I think they need to go find a paying job!

it's free to them and covers 100%

@Jasper: Yes, Pat Robertson is a nutcase.

We weren't the ones negotiating, stupid. It was between Israel and Lebanon, we had no part in it and our policies should NOT affect Israel's.

And yes, Hezbollah took the soldiers but there were many other alternatives to get them back other than just bombing the crap out of Lebanon, thus angering the poor, war-torn Lebanese and allowing Hezbollah to sweep in with aid to help and thus gain support from the poor, war-torn Lebanese. So it was bad judgment on Israel's part.

Why should they have gone into Syria? Their bone to pick was with Hezbollah which is in Lebanon. Not Syria. Sure they receive aid from Syria, but they also receive aid from Iran and I don't see you saying Israel should march into Iran (as that would be VERY STUPID and pretty much suicide).

I was refering to Israel not negotiating.

"And yes, Hezbollah took the soldiers but there were many other alternatives to get them back"

Oh really, so you know better than the Israelis? what arrogance, stop listening to your muslim boyfriend. I'm sick and tired of liberals blaming america nd Israel all of the time. I would trust and back the Israelis 100% of the time.

I can just see Rae's boyfriend now.....trashing America and Israel....and Rae sitting saying "yes, yes, oh your right, oh, america is so bad, christians are bad...do you like me know mr.muslim??""

I believe in the free market system.

Why do insurance compnaies get involved with health care anyway? Why has it become an entitlement?

I think if we detached insurance from the medical/health care profession, you would see more competition which always results in better service and better products at lower prices. Why teh medical profession has been made so highly paid is beyond me. We end up with greedy peopel who care nothing of people and are only in it for the money.

I propose a ten year phase out of insurance companies paying for any health care.

As far as socialism goes, the Bible says if a man doesn't work he shouldn't eat. The Soviet Union is a supreme example of socialism's failure and France is learning same as that country's economy is crumbling. If someone is able bodied we do them a huge disservice by giving them money for doing nothing.

We should always take care of the unborn, the sick, the dying, the aged, and as far as the poor, money is really the last thing they need. They need vision for what they can do for themselves based on their God-given talents and abilities.

Also, the governemnt should get out of the welfare business. This is the mandate for the church. The church should take care of the poor from a biblical perspective.

We should reduce the size of governemnt, reduce taxes, and restore the church to it's rightful place in society.

Yeah, a good old revival is on order.

@Jasper: Oh good for you, thanks for showing your bigotry and racism. Way to go. :)

He's not my boyfriend. I said I dated him, and that I haven't spoken to him in awhile. Though when we do talk, it's usually NOT about politics as he doesn't care about that stuff. Sure, he's concerned for his family and he hopes they are some place safe, but beyond that, he doesn't really say anything to me or otherwise.

I don't trash America. Sure, I disagree with our foreign policies, but that doesn't make me hate America. And yes, I can disagree with the way Israel goes about it's business, but I don't hate Israel. The fact that all those extremist Muslims want to destroy Israel is just stupid to me, there is really no point in doing so, the Jews will still consider it to be their land and they will still go there.

And Jasper, you just make my job so much easier when you have nothing better to say other than liberals are evil. I could say the same thing about conservatives...afterall conservatives are the ones that were against ending slavery, against women's rights, against the civil rights movement and ignored the AIDS crisis. So thanks :)

@HisMan: I agree with getting rid of insurance companies...they are pretty much the reason hospitals either don't treat or give sub-par care to those who can't afford insurance. It's quite depressing.

Unfortunately I disagree with everything else you said, but at least we agree on one point. Agreeing on something is better than nothing at all, I think...step in a more positive direction, mayhaps?

"..afterall conservatives are the ones that were against ending slavery, against women's rights, against the civil rights movement and ignored the AIDS crisis. So thanks :"

ah, wow, you really don't know your facts. Abe Lincoln was a repulican. A much bigger percentage of republicans voted for the civil rights bills in the 60's than the democrats. George W Bush has given more money to africa than any other president. and against a womans right to kill her baby, we'll yes, we're against that.

"The fact that all those extremist Muslims want to destroy Israel is just stupid to me, there is really no point in doing so"

we'll, how kind of you!

"the Jews will still consider it to be their land and they will still go there."

because it is their land, what do you want to do? push them into the sea? It's a tiny sliver of land in the vast middle east.

@Jasper: I know it's their land, that's why I think it's pointless for the Muslim extremists to try to get rid of them. You need to practice your reading comprehension.

And also, back in Lincoln's day, the republicans were liberal and the democrats were conservative, so I am correct. Republican does not necessarily = conservative. And I know about the higher percentage of republicans voting in favor of civil rights as back then the democrats were a majority of southern DIXICRATS...also known as southern democrats, which weren't by any stretch of the imagination, liberal.

As for George Bush giving money to Africa (one of the only things he's ever done right, so I do give him props for doing so), that's fantastic. But it's almost too little too late, considering it was REAGAN who ignored it because he didn't want to believe AIDS could be spread through heterosexual sex, he was convinced only "immoral" and "undesirables" folks like homosexuals and drug users got AIDS, which was later found to be untrue.

Conservatives were also against women voting as it was "tradition to stay in the kitchen and pop out babies" instead of getting jobs and what not. In some ways, this is still prevalent today. I don't consider abortion a women's rights issue so that's not even worth discussing.

"But it's almost too little too late, considering it was REAGAN who ignored it because he didn't want to believe AIDS could be spread through heterosexual sex, he was convinced only "immoral" and "undesirables" folks like homosexuals and drug users got AIDS, which was later found to be untrue."

Yes, and he was right. I don't know were you got that word "undesirables" though. but AIDS is primarily a disease that homosexuals get from anal sex. Plus, it's preventable through moral behavior. So, yes he was right about the immorality of it.

"And also, back in Lincoln's day, the republicans were liberal and the democrats were conservative, so I am correct."

Not.

"Yes, and he was right. I don't know were you got that word "undesirables" though. but AIDS is primarily a disease that homosexuals get from anal sex. Plus, it's preventable through moral behavior. So, yes he was right about the immorality of it."

Nope, he was wrong. In Africa, AIDS was rampant among heterosexual men and women because of "femmes libres" or "free women" aka part-time hookers (in South East Asia, HIV is spread through the sex-slave trade, or FORCED prostitution). Now they also have AIDS spreading through contamination of needles due to non-sterile conditions (and this is also occurring in the Middle East, which has the lowest number of AIDS cases...wonder why?). So you are wrong in saying that it's mostly a "gay disease". But I shouldn't expect more from a bigot like you. If you'd do your research you would know this information.

Also, AIDS is not always preventable. Take a baby, when it's born to a woman with AIDS, the baby is often born with HIV (unless precautions are taken, but that occasionally isn't employed if the woman is poor or in an area with little medical care). That baby did nothing wrong to deserve getting HIV. Snap.

Oh, and what about blood transfusions, while theoretically it is more or less impossible to get HIV through transfusions, this occurred rampantly in the 80's and early 90's. It still happens frequently in impoverished nations like Africa.

@Jasper: Then give me a link proving me wrong, as this is what I was taught in my AP History class, that Republicans were "liberal" in the 1800's and the Democrats were "conservative". Believe it or not, but party positions do in fact change over time.

That's what I was taught as well, Rae, in both American History and American governement classes.

@Heather B: But we must be being lied to by the liberal teachers and the evil liberal education system. Oh noez!

Of course, Rae. It's just one big conspiracy.

@Heather B: We iz bein' brainwashed by teh evil liberalzzzzz! Oh fritz!

It's those evil colleges, Rae, and their evil, evil agenda.

Anyway, since I'm a bit horrible with search engines, my wonderful friend Garrett compiled a list of the various parties. They're mostly links and then there's a summary at the bottom, but still.

***

"I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic-Republican_Party

II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Party_%28United_States%29

III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Liberal_Republican_Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populist_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29

IV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1912%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1924%29

V
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixiecrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1948%29

VI
(characterized by a bunch of minor parties)

Then there are also offsets of these various main party shifts including the Libertarians and Neo-Conservatives

I wrote this awhile back:

Classical Liberalism is a political doctrine which is best summarized as a synthesis of economic liberalism and political liberalism. A heavy emphasis is put on individual rights and an economy based off of free markets. A central tenet of Classical Liberalism is the "invisible hand", or spontaneous order out of which a market arises towards society's benefit. Classical Liberalism was pioneered by thinkers such as Adam Smith, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, and Jeremy Bentham.
Classical Conservatism found its root in The Age of Reason. It was a counter to the Enlightenment which stressed Reason as the proper formulation for government. Edmund Burke said that some people lack more reason than others and so Reason could not be the answer. Instead, Burke said that government should be derived from the state, family, the Church, and other time honored societal institutions. Classical Conservatism states that wisdom in governance should be pulled from tradition to avoid acting in a way that produces unintended consequences. It is hard to define Conservatism in any one way, because there are so many variations of it. The scholar R.J. White said, "To put conservatism in a bottle with a label is like trying to liquefy the atmosphere…The difficulty arises from the nature of the thing. For conservatism is less a political doctrine than a habit of mind, a mode of feeling, a way of living."
Classical Liberalism is all about absolute freedom and minimal government; where as Classical Conservatism is about pulling from tradition and utilizing already existing social institutions. Classical Liberalism's political and economic policies can be found in the Republican party of the 80's to early 90's. It is debatable whether or not they are still present as a political ideology in the major parties as they both seem to contribute to the expansion of government. Modern Liberalism maintains Classical Liberalism's social ideology which is that of non-intervention. That is to say the individual's life and rights are sovereign and can not be altered. Modern Liberalism rejects Classical Liberalism's political and economic ideologies and instead takes on an interventional role for the state. Classical Conservatism and Modern Conservatism both seem to revert back to tradition, however Modern Conservatism seems to concentrate more on returning to a prior "status quo". Across the board there is cultural conservatism which seeks maintain a set of "values"; religious conservatism which seeks to preserve particular teachings of a religion; and even neo-conservatism which is inherent in the current administration. The best example of Classical Liberalism in the modern political system is found in the Libertarian Party."

"as this is what I was taught in my AP History class, that Republicans were "liberal" in the 1800's and the Democrats were "conservative" "

that figures.

conservatives are racist/bad by nature huh Rae?

and please stop calling me a racist and a bigot.
(liberals always like to play the race card, although liberals are the ones who like to keep minorities dependent on the government, it keeps them in power )

Good-Night Rae

I'll find that source for the classical/modern summary. It's in one of my books. Don't mess with a Physics/Philosophy/Poli Sci major. Thinking is what I do

@Jasper: Nope, not all conservatives are racist or bad by nature. My vati is conservative and he is far from racist nor is he bad.

And I call you a bigot because you are one, I am only calling a spade a spade, much as you do when you call me and other like-minded individuals "pro-deathers" or "pro-aborts" or "evil baby-killing sinners" or my personal fave "satan-worshipers".

And you are a bigot. Get over it. There is a difference between racist and bigot, and while I don't think you are a racist, you are definitely a bigot.

You keep stereotyping too...I don't want to keep minorities dependent, I want them to be independent of the government, for example, no longer relying on welfare via welfare reforms (so that it *actually* helps those who need it instead of just throwing money at a problem and hoping for it to go away).

Good night Jasper. It was delightful conversation.

Well the health care system is so full of bureaucracy bullcrap it's hard to find where the true problem(s) lies, at times. I am not a big expert on the system (yet), but if we do have some sort of socialized health care I would prefer a system that provides free or sliding scale insurance, it might be a better system. (Don't hold me to that, it's just an idea).

I haven't been on forever, sorry, the wireless internet in my house hasn't been the same since the last thunderstorm, so I'm on the house comp right now.

I basically came on because I saw some stuff I want to comment on.

I saw Knocked up tonight!! While it ran long at times it was a great comedy! It had dramatic moments and really funny ones too. I definitely recommend it especially to you mommies :) (I was definitely surprised about how realistic the birth scene was--it showed crowning and everything)
Interesting to note to other pro-lifers, that her mom and the father's friend both recommended abortion. And referred to it as "taking care of it." Another interesting thing, her mom insinuated that she wasn't strong enough to have both baby and career, her reasoning for the abortion.

Also yesterday I saw the episode on Sex and the City where Miranda learns she is pregnant. I think the way they did it was actually very beautiful because that was the same time that Charlotte learned that she wouldn't be able to have children so you see how desperate Charlotte is and her disbelief and horror at Miranda's "decision" to get an abortion. She gratefully decides to keep it in the end, but in the episode Carrie explores her past abortion and remarks that she would be completely different if she had it(that is when I leaned over to my sister and said "adoption"). A good moment I thought was when Miranda asked when Carrie felt back to normal after her abortion. She said "any day now."

Jasper -

do you have a source for that gem about 25% of American Muslims "supporting terrorism"?

Im guessing in typical Jasper fashion, it was more like 25% of American Muslims would protest the Bush regime, and you twisted it to fit your point, because *newflash* you're a bigot.

I am Lebanese. My pro-choice Republican mother is Lebanese, and my pro-choice Republican grandmother is Lebanese. OHNOEZZZ I must be a terrorist!!! I love listening to people like you stereotype an entire group of people you clearly know nothing about. And when I say I love it, its only because it displays for anyone with half a brain how ignorant you are.
Half the population of Lebanon is CATHOLIC. How many Catholics do you think died in the attacks? Plenty. But of course you completely ignore that and focus on Hezbollah. Because somehow one terrorist organization existing in a country makes it okay to bomb thousands of uninvolved civilians?!

Based on your statements about Lebanon - Im guessing you'd support bombing entire states in the US if they find terrorist cells there? Who cares about all those civilians? Why not take out a few libs while we're at it, right??

jasper, i dont even know what to say. All your comments so far involving muslims have been so obviously twisted and bigoted, that i have no idea where you can come up with those views. Though sadly it doesnt surprise me.

oh, and jasper, another little point. Its been said, but just to reiterate it. Democrats used to be the conservatives and republicans the liberals way back when. However, previous party systems are a bit hard to compare to modern system, at least in some respects. It just happens that each of those leaned to the opposite side than the names imply today.

Rae,

However, if I were the person I am today, with the same free will and I saw how people were so obedient and following God's laws and there was no evil in the world, chances are that yes, I would believe at that point as God is more or less showing that He has the power to destroy our sinful nature to make us the perfect people we were meant to be.

You do realize, don't you, that you just described Christianity? You are the person you are today, with the same free will and you see how people are obedient and following God's laws and while there is still evil, "true" and I emphasize "TRUE" Christians are not causing it. He is showing that He has the power to "destroy our sinful nature and to make us the perfect people we were meant to be". That's why He died on the cross. So that we would have a chance at eventual perfection. Any mistakes we make are erased and we are physically reborn in Heaven.

Everything you asked for. And we still have free will. Everything you described, and we "CHOSE" it.

So what are you waiting for? :)

mk

Rae,

On Deism...

So you have a hard time believing in a God, who loves you, watches over you, takes an interest in His creation and asks you to participate? This is too far a stretch for you?

But you have no problem accepting a god who created you, this world and everything in it, but abandoned it and never looked back?

If you take this thought process a little further, it's easy to see why we Christians, want to have interaction with each other and be actively involved in ridding the world of evil. Why we can't just sit by and "let things happen". Why we feel compelled to try and change things for the better. We believe that we were created in the "Image of God" and must try to act as much like Him as possible.

If you were also created in the image of your god, it explains why you are so cavalier about things like abortion. Your god, or your understanding of him, has taught you to remove yourself from that which you create. To abandon that which you are part of. To separate yourself from others. No wonder you are able to ignore certain evils. Your god does the same thing.

No offense intended, sincerely, but your faith sounds very depressing and hopeless. I'm sorry for that. I can't imagine living in a world where the greatest thing that exists, your god, doesn't give a rat's patootie about you.

Maybe you can explain it to me better than wikipedia did. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.
Your view just leaves me empty. And I sought far too long and hard for the truth to be happy with the thought that there is a god, but he/it's selfish, cold and heartless...

mk

Rae, On Israel-

Do you realize that more missles are fired upon Israel daily in these times than were fired in the entire gulf war?

Israel has been under constant attack since handing Gaza over. Their gesture only caused more hatred and killing.

I think you are failing to undertand that the whole of the middle east HATES Israel and will never cease their attacks. They realize that the world's liberals have turned against Israel and are using that to their advantage. They are using anti-israel propaganda and our mainstream media is eating it up.

Do you remember the photoshopped and staged photos that the "poor Lebanons" used to employ sympathy and cast shaddows on Israel? Probably not.

Don't believe me?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/866416.html

"Ahmadinejad said last summer's war between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon showed for the first time hegemony of the occupier regime [Israel] collapsed and that pushed the button counting the days until the destruction of Zionist regime, IRNA quoted him as saying.

God willing, in near future we will witness destruction of the corrupt occupier regime, Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying during a speech to foreign guests who attended ceremonies marking the 18th anniversary of the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who is known as the father of Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution."

And on liberals hating Israel-

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=11681§ionid=351020202

A resolution calling for a boycott has been placed on the agenda for the group's annual national conference starting June 19 said Mary McGuire, a spokeswoman for Unison on Thursday.

"During 2006, Israel invaded Lebanon and Gaza, withheld tax revenues form the Palestine Authority and refused dialogue with the elected Authority following the democratic elections of January 2006, resealed the borders of Gaza, expanded illegal settlements in the West Bank, and continued the construction of the illegal Apartheid Wall," the union noted in a statement.

It also accused the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair of adopting “a consistent stand in support of the Zionist regime throughout the shameful events of 2006, even joining the US in failing to call for a cease-fire amidst worldwide condemnation of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.”

The movement in Britain to boycott Israel economically and culturally is gathering speed as the country's biggest labor union said it would follow the union of university instructors in weighing punitive measures against Israel.

Which goes so far as this:

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/8555

The Executive of the public services Unison has rejected a proposal from the relevant union committee to give money to the international trade-union news website Labourstart, on the grounds that one of the people involved in running Labourstart is a "Zionist".

It is a sort of "boycott before the boycott", a pre-emptive application of motion 54 to Unison conference, which proposes a boycott of all Israeli institutions.

Labourstart provides an unparalleled breadth of information on workers' struggles and workers' organisations worldwide, including in the Occupied Territories.

At the Executive no-one objected to Labourstart's coverage. The objection was to its founding editor, Eric Lee. Eric is now only one of 79 contributors world-wide to Labourstart.

But - and that was enough to damn the whole project in the eyes of the Executive - Eric is a Zionist. He has been associated with left-Zionist parties in Israel such as Mapam and Meretz.

Nobody proposed checking out the other 78 Labourstart correspondents for their views.

The basic argument is that the union cannot support projects, however worthwhile, if the people running them are Jewish. Supporters of "boycotting" Labourstart will reply that the objection is not that people like Eric Lee are Jewish, but that they are "Zionists". But to brand left Zionists like Eric as outside the range of people whom we can work with is to "boycott" almost all Jews around the world.

Im a liberal who supports israel, choose whether or not to believe that after the response if you will, but lets look at this.

the article says the U.S. and Britain essentially said/did nothing after Israel invaded lebanon and performed illegal actions. Now, if the name Israel were replaced with any other country, what would have happened? The U.S. and Britain most likely would have quickly denounced the invasion/actions and probably employ sanctions against the country. I see this as protesting the hypocrisy of the governments for not acting when they would have had it been any other country, and the protest of every country to its border integrity, which would include Lebanon as well as Israel.

Really now, how does that reflect on the US and Britain if we arent willing to admit someone on our side did something wrong and should be treated like any other country for doing so?

Erin, I hope you had a safe trip! I hope you are okay.

Dan - The US did denounce the action of Isreal. So, I'm not sure your point.

not according to the article that was provided,

"It also accused the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair of adopting “a consistent stand in support of the Zionist regime throughout the shameful events of 2006, even joining the US in failing to call for a cease-fire amidst worldwide condemnation of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.”"

Do you remember the photoshopped and staged photos that the "poor Lebanons" used to employ sympathy and cast shaddows on Israel? Probably not.

Lauren, I remember...here are some of them:

http://zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/doctoredphotos1.html

Rae -

I think the problem with some things is the way you are looking at Isreal and the middle east. You are seeing it through the eyes of today and forgetting what got us here. Start with the Crusades, I believe there were 7 of them (but then I think there may have been 10) The history channel did a wonderful documentary on this. One of the Monty Python guys was the 'host' - I think it was Eric Idle but may be wrong on that. Now there were already problems before the Crusades but the 1st crusade is similar to 9/11 meaning it was a moment that got the attention of all sides. The invasion of what is now eastern Turkey by Islam got the emperor in Constatinoble to write a letter to the Pope asking for military assistance. He was asking for knights to come and help, but the Pope sent regular people, and told them it was there holy duty to knock Islam back. This is the beginning.

Look up: The Arian Heresy's - this is the beginning of Islam. Read about the Crusades. Read about the Ottoman Empire invasions of Europe - they went all the way to Vienna Austria where they were defeated around 1580. Read about the invasion of France by the Mores. Read about the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI that led to Britain governing most of the middle east and North Africa.

This should be a start. It is facinating history and something that is only briefly taught in school. Knowing how all these countries formed and how the religions criss crossed each other will let you see why we are were we are now.

There is so much more to it than the Jews fighting Hezbollah.

Bethany, thanks for the links!

I forgot about the "wailing woman" lol! Poor woman, she had not one, not two, not three, but FOUR apartments blown away!

As for the US not denouncing Israel...We didn't fire bomb Israel into submission, but the United States made it clear that they did not support Israel's actions.

Dan -

The first word in your paragraph "It" refers to UNISON who is asking for a boycott of the products made in Isreal.

When you see the word "zionist" realize that it is the same word that Hezbollah, Fatah, Hamas, Al Queda etc. use - All anti-semetic groups.

AND that article, I believe, was posted to show how liberals hate Israel. hmmmm......

The thing that is so insane about the UNISON boycott is that the Universities in Israel have been the one consistant voice for compromise with Palistine.

Blah my brain isn't working today.

*Palestine

Aside from the moral repulsiveness of admitting that one would rather pay for an innocent child to be put to death than "get stuck with supporting it," there's the logical falacy inherent in the statement. It assumes that those are the two choices: a one-time layout for a dead fetus, or 18 years of supporting a welfare child. It's so bogus I can't even think of a parallel that's as absurd.

But I'll try:

"I'd rather go to a prostitue than be forced to rape my wife."

"I'd rather give disturbed teens knives so they can stab their classmates than have them all pull a Columbine."

"We should give all disgruntled postal workers .22 calibur pistols, so that they won't go postal with higher-calibur ammo and kill more people."

Sexually frustrated men have other choices besides prostitutes and spousal rape. Disturbed teens don't have to kill their classmates. And postal workers can be disgruntled without "going postal."

Poor women can have babies without becoming welfare queens.

valerie, plenty of liberals dont hate israel.

second, look at the definition of zionism.

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

which technically would make it a zionist regime, the vocab is proper, though very odd.

Lauren, how was that made clear? We didnt call for a cease fire, nor were any sanctions made against Israel, the US virtually did nothing

Rae, what few people know about those evil pharmaceutical companies is that they have programs to provide medicine free to the uninsured and the income guidelines for eligibility are very liberal.

Dan, you know as well as I that only two types of people use the word "zionist". The first are Jews who use the word possitively.

The next are people who hate all Jews and spit after saying the word.

I'm betting this is an example of the latter group.

Do you remember last summer? All we heard was how terrible Israel is and how mean they are to the "poor" terrorists. Bush et. all did nothing to buffer those statements. The UNISON is just upset that they didn't do enough to "improve Palestinian relations".

"Do you remember last summer? All we heard was how terrible Israel is and how mean they are to the "poor" terrorists."

I actually dont get to watch the news during the summer, i work for like 18 hours during each day, all i know was that there was a bigger conflict than usual. As for the "poor terrorists", they may be vile evil people, but they still have basic human rights that they should be allowed to excercise, the U.S. is still getting crap for how we treat terrorists/suspected terrorists, not to mention guantanomo

relations in the middle-east do need to be improved. Though, that is and most likely always will be amazingly difficult

Amanda,

here you go:

http://www.freedomszone.com/archives/2007/05/twenty_five_percent_of_young_a.php

now, continue with the name calling.

Dan, be careful, otherwise I'll have to put you over my nee and give you a spanking.

I support Israel because God supports Israel, and as a Christian, I am commanded to.

There would be no Christianity if it weren't for the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, all the apostles were Jews, the Bible, both Old and New Testaments - all 666 Books, were written by Jews. You think God is trying to tell us something?

We would be wise to heed His warning about His chosen people that says: "I will bless those who bless you an dcurse those who curse you".

God made Abraham an everlasting covenant.

please explain to me Dan where my statements above are racist or bigoted.

"all 666 books"

Uh...Hisman, what are you talking about?

"the article says the U.S. and Britain essentially said/did nothing after Israel invaded lebanon and performed illegal actions. Now, if the name Israel were replaced with any other country, what would have happened?"

so what? you expect Irael not to defend itself. silly terror supporting liberal. Dan, do you know was involved in blowing up the marine barracks in 83'

read this article libs, why it happened just today. The call for the destruction of Israel.

If I was the Israelis, I would take this very seriously and start bombing Iran's uranium enriching facilities.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSBLA32653020070603?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

there is I think an unfortunate understanding of Christianity,

Many pro-choicers here and (problematic-Christians too) seem to think that the thrust of Christianity is to be set apart .... they believe Christianity is about being better Christians. The whole thrust of Christianity is in fact to become fully human .... to become the creatures we are created as.

It really is hard to figure this out when there are so many who do not live as though they are 'temples of the Holy Spirit'. I love the comments of an infrequent poster here (a few weeks back). 'we are the only Bible many will ever read and we may even have to use words too' ... she claimed these thoughts were from St. Francis...

@Lauren: I honestly don't hate Israel. Liberal as I may be, I don't hate them, sure I disagree at times with some of their past and present foreign policy, but that doesn't constitute a hatred for them. I do see where they are coming from and why they do the things they do. But they have made mistakes, just as any other nation has made mistakes. Israel is not perfect and we should not treat them as such.

It is a shame that so many radical Islamists feel the need to eradicate Israel and nuke them off the map (mostly because they obviously haven't thought through the fact that if they bomb the crap out of Israel, they would be bombing the crap out of thousands of Palestinian Muslims as well that and it is unnecessary and wrong to do so). It's ridiculous that these nations feel that by removing Israel all their problems will be solved, which is false.

I don't understand *why* these countries want to get rid of Israel and *why* they hate the Jews so much when the flippin' Qur'an says that Muslims are to respect Judaism and followers of the faith. It is quite revolting how the extremists have bastardized their own sacred text to further their own anti-semitic agenda. I know of Jews here in the US that are friends with Muslims and vice versa, so I know there is no inherent hatred between the two groups, but a taught one done by extremists on both sides.

Also the fact that more missles were launched at Israel than in the Gulf War, I believe that to be true, but you have to remember Hezbollah =/= Lebanon and I don't think they are a good group. They are terrorists. What I had said about all the August War did was make Hezbollah look good is somewhat true as they did sweep in with aid and assistance to areas that were bombed by Israel. That whole situation was handled very poorly by both the Israelis and Hezbollah and Israel has admitted to the fact that they had made a mistake in bombing Lebanon and are doing an inquiry into the incident(though Hezbollah has yet to do the same, and quite frankly, they should as they were just as wrong as the Israelis in that situation).

@Valerie: I know there is more to the conflict than just Hezbollah and Israel. I know that the radical Islamists want to see Israel gone and I know that is wrong. Perhaps I'll look into a class about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict so as to learn more about the history of the conflict because it really is fascinating.

But just let me say this, I had a professor back when I was doing PSEO at a local community college who was a Palestinian refugee from Jordan. It was a World Contemporary Literature class and we were reading some short stories and poetry about Palestine and he told us his story. When he was young, the country of Palestine was dissolved and recreated as Israel. Soon after, all the Palestinians were kicked off of their land and their homes and property was seized by the new Israeli government. They were homeless and no longer had any money. His family fled into the orange groves and his mother was pregnant at the time and had to give birth in the middle of no-where and the baby died from exposure. Soon his family made it to Jordan and began living in a refugee camp and today his mother and siblings *still* live in that refugee camp. He managed to get out because he had the highest test score on a Jordanian exam for college and the Jordanian government chose to give a poor Palestinian refugee the opportunity to go to college in America, and he did. He now has a PhD. He is angry yes, that his family was forced from their homeland and now live in squalid conditions in Jordan, but he says that the radical Islamist bombings in Israel are un-called for and will do nothing to help solve the problems between Israel and Palestine. He hopes that one day there will be peace and that the Israelis and Palestinians can live together.

His story as well as the readings we did for the class really helped me see the conflict through new eyes and to feel sympathy for the Palestinians and to realize they aren't entirely evil and bad like some people think they are. Both sides have committed wrongs in this conflict and both sides are suffering because of said wrongs and that isn't right.

@MK:

"So you have a hard time believing in a God, who loves you, watches over you, takes an interest in His creation and asks you to participate? This is too far a stretch for you?

But you have no problem accepting a god who created you, this world and everything in it, but abandoned it and never looked back?"

It makes more sense to me that God created the world (or at least jump-started evolution and what not billions of years ago) and abandoned it because of all the things that are wrong with the world. That's just the way I see it. If God were truly involved, we wouldn't have the conflicts in the Middle East, we wouldn't have people killing other people based on their sexual orientation, race or religion. If God truly loved us and cared, we wouldn't have diseases like AIDS and cancer killing numerous people for no reason. That's what makes me think God abandoned us, the sheer fact there is so much unnecessary suffering and poverty and death in the world makes me think that God abandoned us.

"If you were also created in the image of your god, it explains why you are so cavalier about things like abortion. Your god, or your understanding of him, has taught you to remove yourself from that which you create. To abandon that which you are part of. To separate yourself from others. No wonder you are able to ignore certain evils. Your god does the same thing."

Perhaps that is the case, but I think it's more based on the fact that I barely value my own life, and think that I am dispensable and not really necessary that makes me think the way I do, not necessarily the God I believe in.

"No offense intended, sincerely, but your faith sounds very depressing and hopeless. I'm sorry for that. I can't imagine living in a world where the greatest thing that exists, your god, doesn't give a rat's patootie about you.

Maybe you can explain it to me better than wikipedia did. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.
Your view just leaves me empty. And I sought far too long and hard for the truth to be happy with the thought that there is a god, but he/it's selfish, cold and heartless..."

No offense taken, I understand that you don't agree with my interpretation of God, but that is how I see it based on the world around me. If God created human beings in his image, and human beings are selfish, cold and heartless, it makes sense that God is the same way, is it not?

And perhaps wikipedia didn't explain it terribly well, but it does show that just because somebody doesn't believe in the Christian God doesn't mean they are amoral as Diests do have morals and codes that are derived from reason, if that makes sense.

Perhaps this link might help in describing it a bit better than wikipedia did, as it also gives sources for extra reading:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm

Hey Rae,

If God never allowed bad things to happen in world, how would we ever know what "good" is?

Regarding Israel:

Given that there's a city called Mecca, where only Muslims can go, and Jews cannot go even as tourists, shouldn't there be another city somewhere in the middle east where only Jews can go and Muslims are forbidden, even as tourists?

After all, fair is fair, and equal is equal.

@Jasper: If God never let bad things happen why would it matter as everything would be good so we wouldn't even have to think about it.

Rae,

If God created human beings in his image, and human beings are selfish, cold and heartless, it makes sense that God is the same way, is it not?

This is my point, Rae.

If God, (My God) created us in His image, and asked us to try and live up to it, then those of us who actually DO that are not the ones wreaking havoc!

Look at any evil in the world, and then look to see who perpetrating it. If they claim to do it in the name of God, then look to God's word. If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably. But for the most part you will see that they are non-believers (believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it).

As John said earlier, quoting St. Francis...."Preach the Gospel everywhere. Use words if you have to!"

But evil occurs when you don't follow Jesus' teachings.

If human beings are acting selfish, cold and heartless, it is precisely because they are NOT living up to being creatures made in His image. Blame them, not the God who made them.

By believing in a God that gave up, you have demoted him from a deity to an insignificant character in the theatre of life. This is not God, but a god.

Following a god, is the same as following a demon.

Even the angels were given free will...and you know what happened there.

You have two forces fighting for you're soul.

God. and Satan.

If your life, actions and beliefs are not in accord with God's, then they must be in accord with Satan, even if you refer to satan as your deistic God.

This is the great deception. Being the father of all that is false, he lures you into rejecting a loving God, thereby robbing you of "hope", real "love" and "truth".

I can't believe that you are being so easily duped.

Are you afraid to hope? Has "hoping" let you down so often that you are going to spend eternity avoiding it? Is life that bad? I think if I believed as you do, I would have slit my throat a long time ago! When I try to see the world through your (and some of the other posters here) eyes, I get so depressed...how do you guys wake up in the morning? What do you count on? Who do you trust? Where do you turn? What is your part in the whole picture?

Help me to understand, because I honestly think that this view is seriously without any value. It's hollow and empty. Better to believe in nothing than to believe that there is a god and that he couldn't care less about you.

Bishop Sheen says:

"Nature speaks to us in the reproachful language of pain when we violate its laws, for example, break a bone. A toothache proves nature has a tongue, bidding us remedy the evil. Conscience too has a voice; it bids us turn back again to God with every remorse."

But there are some diseases that kill without the voice of pain - cancer that destroys in silence. So too with the conscience. If it no longer speaks in remorse, think not that you are healthy. Your soul may be dead. Our Lord will answer you nothing then, even when you robe Him as a fool. Then the hush about the cross to which you have sent Him will be His last appeal."

"Probably the worst punishment God can visit upon a soul is to leave it alone"

I realize I just got preachy and perhaps a little too harsh, but I am just having such a hard time understanding what it must be like to view the world as you do. It scares me. It makes me want my mommy! And it makes me even happier that I can turn to my "Father" and say, "I'm frightened Daddy. Hold me. Everything is SO big, and I feel SO small", and hear Him answer, "Be not afraid. I am with you. Always."

MK

Rae,

@Jasper: If God never let bad things happen why would it matter as everything would be good so we wouldn't even have to think about it.

There is such a place. But to get there you must first pass a test. The test being multiple choice.

If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't need a savior.

But we are, and we have one, and the place that you speak of, this place where everything is Good, and Evil does not show it's face, already exists.

The question is, do you choose to go there?

I realize you want it NOW, but that's now how God laid it out. He shows us both worlds, and says, "which one do you want?". Then depending on your answer, He shows you how to get there. This life, this "world" is really just the train depot. You've gotta tell the conductor your destination. And then you can't complain when you end up it Pittsburgh instead of Santa Barbara. After all, you purchased your own ticket!

mk

Rae, here is something I found that might help explain further...

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

I think that you have your mind made up, but it couldn't hurt to put that up there...I don't know why but some people do believe that God must conform to their idea of what God should be like. Did we create God? Can we mold God to our liking?

And I don't see how, if God was powerful, wise, and intelligent enough to be able to create us, why do we not give Him credit that He is capable of knowing what is best in other situations?

What kind of a God would be capable of creating an entire universe, world, humans, animals, everything we know of ...and not be capable of knowing what to do when things go "wrong"?

If your view of God is that He is a weakling who walks away when he "makes mistakes", that is a very, very sad idea of God, and depressing.

I believe that not only is God capable of creating us and our world, He is very much involved and He uses every bad situation for His perfect will. You don't understand why He allows it? Well, that's okay, but that doesn't mean that God is in error simply because you, part of His creation, do not understand everything He does and why He does it.

We are people who live on earth. We live a short amount of time, then we die. We only can know what we have experienced on this earth.

God's infinite intelligence and wisdom is so much higher than ours, and that is self evident. Can you or I actually create a life from nothing? Can you or I create a world and make it function, all from nothing? If you or I or all of human kind have not been able to duplicate what God has been able to create, then how can we possibly think that we have more intelligence than God, or think that we have better solutions than God does?

"Are you afraid to hope? Has "hoping" let you down so often that you are going to spend eternity avoiding it? Is life that bad? I think if I believed as you do, I would have slit my throat a long time ago! When I try to see the world through your (and some of the other posters here) eyes, I get so depressed...how do you guys wake up in the morning? What do you count on? Who do you trust? Where do you turn? What is your part in the whole picture?"

I am afraid to hope because I have hoped before and it has done nothing but let me down, so instead I look at the most negative possible outcome so if anything just remotely better happens, then I am satisfied.

I wake up in the morning with great difficulty, always have, always will probably. Even when I was "Catholic", it never really made sense to me and gave me nothing but despair. I have learned not to count on anybody because all people do is let you down, as does God, which is why I think he has abandoned us. I trust nobody because I have had my trust betrayed far too many times. I turn to nobody and I really have no purpose in the big picture but to aimlessly exist until I croak. Negative, of course it is, but unfortunately, it's how I see the world and quite frankly, I doubt it will ever change.

"If your life, actions and beliefs are not in accord with God's, then they must be in accord with Satan, even if you refer to satan as your deistic God."

Perhaps this usually why I never really bother trying to explain my beliefs, as it is assumed that if I don't believe in the Christian God, I must be following Satan, which is a purely Christian phenomena. But you know what? Go ahead, think I'm an evil satanic witch if that makes it easier for you to ease your conscience or whatever at night.

"Look at any evil in the world, and then look to see who perpetrating it. If they claim to do it in the name of God, then look to God's word. If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably. But for the most part you will see that they are non-believers (believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it)."

So are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

"By believing in a God that gave up, you have demoted him from a deity to an insignificant character in the theatre of life. This is not God, but a god.

Following a god, is the same as following a demon."

I'll make sure to tell my polytheistic friends that they are following demons. They'll find that entertaining I think.

o are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

Ever since the fall of Adam, I believe that every single one of us has a sin nature and is inherently evil, as a result of that fall. I don't think that believers in Jesus are perfect. We are not better for having accepted Jesus, just forgiven.

As for "believers" and people who killed in the name of Christ, have you read the verse:

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

@Bethany:

"God's infinite intelligence and wisdom is so much higher than ours, and that is self evident. Can you or I actually create a life from nothing? Can you or I create a world and make it function, all from nothing? If you or I or all of human kind have not been able to duplicate what God has been able to create, then how can we possibly think that we have more intelligence than God, or think that we have better solutions than God does?"

Well considering I don't believe in Creation or "Intelligent Design", I would have to say, nope, I don't think any of this. And actually, man has duplicated some of what God has created, in the 1950's or 1960's there was a man who's name I forget, who created the organic building blocks of life (amino acids and some various sugar compounds as well as nucleotides I think) from inorganic materials as a model of the primordial "soup" that life is thought to have come from. While it may not be *exact* at this time, it is pretty close and proves that it is in fact possible for organic material (living things) to come from inorganic material (non-living things).

Oh Rae,

Perhaps this usually why I never really bother trying to explain my beliefs, as it is assumed that if I don't believe in the Christian God, I must be following Satan, which is a purely Christian phenomena. But you know what? Go ahead, think I'm an evil satanic witch if that makes it easier for you to ease your conscience or whatever at night.

I am so sorry that that is what you heard. I never meant to imply that you are "willingly" following satan. Or that you are evil. Or a witch. That's so awful that you think I meant that. Quite the contrary, I think you are remarkable. Talented, sensitive, kind...which is why it is so incredibly sad that you are left without hope. I am truly saddened to hear that everyone in life has let you down so horribly. I just want to thrash them! You are so good...it comes through in every post you place on here. You are always so respectful, and patient. From where you sit, we must sound awfully judgmental and hard, but that is not really where we are coming from. It is the fact that we like you so much, that makes us want to reach out and offer you something so good and so wonderful. It is out of frustration, hearing your pain and being unable to help, that we pound away. You put up with us and for that I am soooo grateful.

Never, never, never did I mean to say that you were and evil satan worshipping witch!

The problem is that by turning your back on God because you believe He turned his back on you, you are falling in a trap that satan has set for you. You don't need to "worship" him, to do his bidding. You don't even need to believe in him. You just need to reject God, and satan does the rest.

Be at peace Rae. I love you, and never want to see you hurting. Now you've got me blubbering again! Just remember that Bethany, Valerie and I are here for you, whenever and if ever you need us. For real. Kay?

Mk, you said it so well. That is exactly how I feel.
We are not trying to condemn you or call you names, Rae. We are trying to help you, as you seem to sincerely be asking these questions from your heart. Like MK said, if you ever need us, we are here.

Rae,

So are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

I repeat my clarification, because I was afraid this would happen...

If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably.

and

(believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it).

Believers can be following satan the same way non-believers can be following God, yet neither of them realizing it.

"God is truth, and whoever seeks the truth is seeking God, whether they know it or not."
-Edith Stein

See, what frustrates me is that people assume that without the knowledge and worhip of a Christian God, I can never be happy. Then it all falls down to that "no one but Christians have morality" and then it's just downhill from there. Bleah.

See, what frustrates me is that people assume that without the knowledge and worhip of a Christian God, I can never be happy.

Do you consider yourself to be happy? This is a sincere question, not trying to be judgemental. I honestly want to know your opinion...Are you a happy person, and do you have peace?

Erin,

You'd have to define "happy" for me to give you any answer to that...

And then you'd have to define morality.

All I can say is on your way downhill, look out for that tree...
mk

"Even when I was "Catholic", it never really made sense to me and gave me nothing but despair."

Really? despair? My catholic faith gives me the opposite- As a sinner, I find hope, salvation in the church, through the son of God Jesus Christ.

@Jasper: When I was Catholic, I never felt I was good enough and that no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, I was destined to suffer forever because no matter what, I was a horrible person. That is why I felt nothing but despair.

@Erin: That bothers me as well because I have friends who are Jewish, who are Muslim or who are Hindu and they are very satisfied with their lives and happy with their faiths and have morals as well.

Rae and Erin,
Again I say (Edith Stein was Jewish Convert in Auswicsh (sp) so she covers a couple of faiths) says:

"God is truth, and whoever seeks the truth is seeking God, whether they know it or not."
-Edith Stein

Gotta go to a wake...be back later. Peace.
MK

Bethany-

yes. I do consider myself happy. I believe that I have found the religion/lifestyle that fits in with my beliefs, beliefs which were formed by my experiences both good and bad. I've had a crazy life for a 19 year old girl but I honestly consider myself one of the only people I know to actually have my faith in MYSELF- which is more important, to me, than having faith in any god or deity. I am at peace because I know myself, and I know that my beliefs are flexible because who I am is flexible- I have always said, beliefs should be shaped by your experience, your religion should not shape your beliefs.

"@Jasper: When I was Catholic, I never felt I was good enough and that no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, I was destined to suffer forever because no matter what, I was a horrible person. That is why I felt nothing but despair."

well Rae, Im not sure who made you feel like that, but you should'nt, the church is not a house of saints, it's a house of sinners. why do you think at every mass we ask Christ for forgiveness.

@Jasper: Tell that to my Faith Formation teachers. They hated me because I had the gall to question what they said and they were never able to answer me and told me to shut-up and just accept things the way they were and that by questioning what they said, I was disobeying God.

Rae, I know you've had a lot of hardships in your past, and this is how you've reacted to protect yourself from further hurt. I'm sorry that your life has been so difficult. I too, had a troubling past. I wanta you to know that I keep you in my prayers, not because I think I am better than you (I'm not), but because I care about you and I hope that God will reveal Himself to you one day, and would love for God to bless you and show you what good can come in your life, as He so graciously did for me. He changed my life. I don't think that I or anyone else here will be able to convince you of anything, because your mind is made up. But God is much higher than I am and He can do what I cannot. I know MK has been praying too. I know that faith can work miracles, and I pray it will make a change for the better in your life and heal the hurt you've experienced in your past. (((hugs)))

Rae -

Your Faith Formation Teachers were all wrong. One of the reasons I like the Catholic faith is because you are encouraged to ask questions. People are encouraged to be like doubting Thomas who didn't believe he was looking at the reserecting Christ until he touched the wounds.

As for Isreal and Palistine. I am glad that you got a specific point of view. But I seriously encourage you to study history on this. The European Jews were given the land now called Isreal because of the autrocities that happened in WWII. The Jews wanted a place of their own so that they would never be persecuted like that again. The Palistineans did not own the land. Sorry, but they didn't. The Ottoman Empire fell after WWI and britain was given control of the land by the League of Nations. Britain could do with that land that they wanted. It is not right what happened to the people living on that land. But it was far worse what would have happened to the Jews if they stayed in Europe with all the hatred that was left over. The Jews were told that they could settle on that land. Even then there was hatred of the Jews by the Palistineans and the Jews were understandably not wanting to live on land where they were hated. There was a Civil War/revolt type war that occured, and now we have the aftermath. This is one of those odd situations where you can see that both sides have reasons to believe they are right. However, Isreal is hated by all the countries around them and anti-semitism runs throughout the world. If they show one sign of weakness, they will be attacked. They made a compromise to give the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank to the Palistinean government. The Isreali army went into those areas and forced (by alot of violence) the Jews to move out. All this did was create a temporary cease fire for a year. Was it worth it? Also, Isreal has complied with the Oslo accords and "the road map to peace" but the Palistineans have not. Isreal offered everything the Palistineans ever wanted, 99%, but would not allow Jerusalem to go to the Palistinean government. Palistine said no. This under the Clinton administration. What more can Isreal do?

Like I said, you do have to go back to the Crusades and maybe before that, around 700 AD to fully understand all of this.

To all -

Please forgive all the typing errors. I'm not good at spelling.

@Rae -

I just wanted to add that it took me a very long time to find God again. I lost faith after graduating High School and didn't re-find it until after my daughter was born last year. I questioned. I searched. I found out the truth for myself. I encourage this from anyone who is having difficulty. I, too, have Muslim, Hindu and non-believer friends. I have never thought, no will I ever think that they are going to Hell. They all live a good life and never hurt anyone intentionally. They live, what some may call, a good Christian life. ;-) I know some disagree with me, but this is my belief.

@Valerie: Oh I do agree with that, the Palestinians are being rather "ass-hat"-like with the lack of cooperation. It would be *fantastic* if they would realize that by being stubborn and not willing to compromise and suicide bombing the crap out if Israel. Though, I think the problem with both sides is the poor leadership on both sides, though I could be wrong.

I mean, I do see why the Palestinians are angry, they were in fact kicked off their land, and I'm