I disagree because it puts a price on human life.

I agree with Bethany.

Of course I disagree with the statement. I could care less the taxpayer "cost" of rising a child. If the alternative is paying for the child to be killed, I'll galdly pay to raise her.

Think about it, what if someone said "well Lauren, you can either pay 300 dollars for us to kill this child, or pay 10,000 dollars for the child to be kept alive. If there was no other option, I'd pay the 10,000.

Sorry, I left out the end quote.

Should read:

"well Lauren, you can either pay 300 dollars for us to kill this child, or pay 10,000 dollars for the child to be kept alive. "

If there was no other option, I'd pay the 10,000

I disagree with the statement as well. Not only does it place a price tag on human life, it's a false dilemma. Our society created "welfare moms" in the first place, by deciding that the way to "deal with the poor" was to throw money at them. This tactic doesn't work as it simply turns poor people into people who are poor unless we give them money. Unless we believe that the poor are stupid or incapable, this is ridiculous. So do we? Do we believe that the poor are somehow inherently "less" so that they cannot be taught or equipped to care for themselves? Are they like crippled children who must live at home under their parents care forever?

And now we see how, in this culture of abortion and euthanasia, where our thinking about the poor leads -- to the idea that it makes more sense to kill their children than let them live and cost us more money.

Rae,

I know this has nothing to do with the topic but I can't get on here very often and really wanted to address your comment from another post...

@MK: No, that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'm wondering why God gave us free will in the first place if he knew that we would sin and therefore hurt him. And I wonder, how could Jesus make a law like that? He's not God, sure he's God's son (or an entity? The trinity confuses me so much, my atheist friends asked me a few days ago to explain the purpose of the Holy Spirit and I was like, ummm...it's the essence of God? I am pretty sure that's not correct, and I told them that...gah!) but not God and I thought only God made the rules. So to answer your question, if God made it so that we all had no choice but to believe in him, he could make it so by taking away our free will could he not?

As for the last thing, I'm definitely open to the idea there is a God, heck, I'd go as far as to consider myself a Diest, but I have issues with the Bible (I honestly don't believe it is the Word of God) and if you haven't noticed, I have major issues with religion in general. So I don't necessarily reject God per se, I reject certain portrayals of God though, because they truly don't make sense to me. Does this make sense? Probably not, I'm still working through it myself. But I suppose the fact that I may believe in God but not the Bible is just an excuse for me to sin without fear, but that is not the case. I do try to live a good life, I really do, I was raised Catholic and some of my morals are in fact derived from Christianity/Catholicism but yeah. :)

As a Catholic, I believe that Jesus IS God. No difference whatsoever. So is the Holy Spirit. So the "Word of God" can come from any of them.

As to taking away our free will, that's what I'm asking you.

Yes He could have taken away (or more accurately, never given it to begin with) our free will and made us obey Him. But then it wouldn't be love because Love can never be forced. He desired people to Love Him and in doing so desire to obey Him. But Love is first.

This is why I asked you if He made a new law, revoking our free will, and turning us into automatons that obeyed Him automatically, would you have an easier time accepting Him?

You said no, and in a way answered your own question. Take it a step further and tell me why you wouldn't believe in Him if He controlled everyone so that no one could commit sins or do evil. (I realize that if the scenario were true you would believe in him by virtue of said law, but I'm asking if, in theory, this would make it easier to accept God.)

Personally, being "given the freedom to give up my freedom in order to become free" is the greatest draw to Christianity for me. The fact that I have the "choice" to follow or reject Him, to do good or do evil, makes the "choice" to follow and do good all the more powerful.

mk

Rae,

also...As for the last thing, I'm definitely open to the idea there is a God,

Perhaps it's not that the answers you are coming up with aren't appealing. Maybe you're asking the wrong questions.

If you believe in a god, or in God, then you acknowledge someone or something that is all powerful. I would think you'd be asking yourself on a daily basis, "Who or what is this guy?"

I read books on Satan all the time for the same reasons...If something that powerful has the ability to influence my life, I know that I want to know everything about him/it that I can.

Don't you feel the same way about God? Don't you want to know who this "being" is that perhaps has the power to control your surroundings? Are you really comfortable just leaving things run their course? In a way that is giving Him as much control as I do, except you are unaware of it. By the same token, if there is an evil counterpart (which does not imply and equal counterpart), then perhaps you are giving him/it the same power over yourself without even realizing it. I can't imagine a more important question.

Is there a God? Who is He? What role do I play?

mk

Personally, I dont want to pay for either. I'd rather keep my money and spend it something I need or want. Which is why I dont like Social Securtity. I am paying into something, that probably will not be around when I am old enough to collect it.

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul"? - Jesus Christ, circa, AD 33.

You can't put a price on a soul. From God's perspective every single soul is worth more to Him than all the world. We should treat and protect borns and unborns with this perspective in mind.

I don't want one red cent going for an abortion. Not my tax money!!!

I don't want any of my tax money going to the war in Iraq, prisons, or abstinence-only sex ed. Particularly abstinence-only sex ed. Do I get a choice in the matter? Not particularly. Why should abortions be any different?

One question that comes to mind. Why do we think this mother is going to be on welfare for 18 years? Just because she keeps the kid means that she will not get out of 'the system'? I'd rather not pay for the abortion or the 18 years. But I would be more than happy to help her pay for an education and/or job training.

It's like the saying:
"If you give a man a fish you will feed him for a day, If you teach a man to fish you will feed him for a lifetime."

Let's teach the welfare Moms to fish, that way we are paying into something that is more beneficial to her family and to society.

MK - I hope you don't mind me getting in on the conversation but.... ;-)

Rae-

Did anyone answer the Holy Spirit question for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Spirit

It is well written and gives different perspectives for the different believes....

It's not "thousands" of dollars for her to raise her kid. To raise a kid today in the USA costs TENS of thousands of dollars.

A few thousands would barely cover the costs of labor and delivery.

Both should be funded, and if you're worried about how much your taxes are, I can think of numerous areas of federal expenditures which far exceed welfare and medicaid in amount, but have little or no merit.

wow! SoMG do you have kids?

wow! SoMG do you have kids?

Taxes need to go up anyways. We don't have remotely enough funding for public health care and feeding/housing the homeless. A touch of socialism never hurt anyone.

we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?

A touch of socialism never hurt anyone.

You're kidding, right?

we rarely hear about finding the cause of things like cancer, we only hear how many millions are being spent on finding medicine (money) that will cure.

Bethany- actually, no. Don't freak out right away though- I'm a fan of capitalism. I think that it is the most effective system we have. I also think though, that every proposal of an economic system has a basis in a good theory- meaning that there are valuable aspects that can be taken from any of them. A more socialistic approach to issues of poverty would be vastly more effective than what we are currently doing. It means raising taxes, yes- but I honestly don't mind, as long as it is going towards helping the plight of my fellow man. I can skip out on a few leisures if it means a family gets to eat, you know? And socialized health care has it's faults, but it's so much more fluid and useful than the system we have in the US. I still think yeah, if you have more money, you should be able to have the best doctor you can afford, but there NEEDS to be a more easily accessable system to the unemployed and uninsured- the system with the best solution to that issue is socialism. I'm not saying "YAY SOCIALISM!"- it's just another form of compromise.

we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?

Great point.

"we don't need more "funding" for public health care, what we need is honest doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Why are we paying an arm and a leg for insurance when the insurance and pharm. companies are making a ridiculous fortune?"

...basic problem: human nature. People tend to go INTO those fields because they are incredibly lucrative. If we could simply make people less greedy, I'd say go for it, but it's impossible to reverse human nature on a scale like that- which is why a governmental measure is the only thing that is going to change the basic conditions of the health care system. And either way, it's going to take time.

Erin, taxes don't need to be raised, our government needs to manage our money in more useful ways.

There is so much pork built into every bill that gives huge funding to utterly trivial things. But someone, somewhere is getting money from the Alaskan Winter Hair Society so they're given a nice healthy grant.

A great "governmental measure" would be to cap insurance rates and hospital costs.

Unlike America, most of the industrialized world has a problem with profiting from the sick and dying. We'd sooner let our own suffer and die prematurely and empty handed rather than embrace anything remotely socialistic because we've been so indoctrinated during the red scare.

the sick and dying are a huge profit in America!

I don't have a huge fear of socialism, I just don't think socialized medicine is the best answer. We need to work on a solution that supports healthcare for the poor, but doesn't create a system where it takes 5 years to see a dentist.

Oddly enough, we think we have the best medical system in the world. While US Biotech is are certainly productive when it comes to new "treatments" and devices, the number and outcomes of health problems among Americans is looking more like Mexico than the rest of western civ.

I'd take a wait over nothing.

Socialized is the only way to go. Any government amalgum with private insurance companies will simply result in exploitation of government revenues more so than any benefit to patients. Kind of like the social security reform proposals. Wall street's itching for that one.

"Socialized is the only way to go"

Yes, lets wait 6 months for our heart-bypass, meanwhile we could end up dead.

Jasper- better than "can't pay for the heart bypass? You're going to die no matter what!"

Hi Erin, did you have a safe trip home? I hope.

I'm no expert on heath care, but arn't most senoirs and young children covered under medicaid, medicare, etc....

I think my Mom's on one of these and she recently had a cancer operation which was fully covered.

Honestly, I'd rather have socialized health care.

Heh, I couldn't even afford my hospital bill from January (I was uber-dehydrated).

"healthy" people don't make money for the greedy i mentioned above.

off topic, but 4 men from the "religon of peace" were plotting to blow up JFK airport. FBI Official Believes Attack Could've Been Worse Than 9/11.

Terrorists Plot Attack Against JFK Airport

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_153122828.html

@MK: About the forced love not being as strong as freely-given love, couldn't have God made it so that freely-given love and forced love are equal?

"This is why I asked you if He made a new law, revoking our free will, and turning us into automatons that obeyed Him automatically, would you have an easier time accepting Him?"

Chances are I would, as I wouldn't have free will nor would I have choice in the matter as I would automatically believe. :)

"Take it a step further and tell me why you wouldn't believe in Him if He controlled everyone so that no one could commit sins or do evil. (I realize that if the scenario were true you would believe in him by virtue of said law, but I'm asking if, in theory, this would make it easier to accept God.)"

Well, I probably would believe in God if He controlled everybody and there were no sins and no evil as I more or less wouldn't have a choice. However, if I were the person I am today, with the same free will and I saw how people were so obedient and following God's laws and there was no evil in the world, chances are that yes, I would believe at that point as God is more or less showing that He has the power to destroy our sinful nature to make us the perfect people we were meant to be.

"Don't you feel the same way about God? Don't you want to know who this "being" is that perhaps has the power to control your surroundings? Are you really comfortable just leaving things run their course?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
This kind of explains my views about the concept of God a bit better...perhaps that could answer this question, though personally I'm comfortable with letting things run their course because trying to understand a divine being like God would be impossible and just lead to a headache.

"Is there a God? Who is He? What role do I play?"

I am thinking there could be a divine being that we could call God, but I honestly don't think he's as "involved" in the affairs of man as we like to think he would be. *shrugs*

I hope this helps-ish? But thank you so much for answering my questions. :)

@luvmy5kids: I agree...pork-barrel spending needs to DIAF ASAP (die in a fire as soon as possible) :D

@Jasper: I see you are still bigoted...can't say I'm surprised. Just so you know...I dated a Sunni Muslim from Lebanon who had a friend die in the August War last year. He's not an extremist even though the Israeli's killed his friend. Last I checked, he hasn't blown himself up, nor has he blown anybody else up, nor has he thought about it. But I must be one hell of a sinner for dating a Muslim. Oh noez!

@Valerie: Have you ever listened to "Pretty Balanced"? They are an indie band from Ohio I believe and they are like piano rock. I recommend them, they are pretty tame and have really pretty songs and aren't quite "metal" like Within Temptation as they are piano based, but it's gorgeous music. :)

Hey Rae,

Why am I bigoted?.... Don't blame the Iraelies, their trying to defend their country.

You are bigoted because you appear to think that all Muslims are like the extremists. They aren't. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. It's kind of like how not all Christians are nut-cases like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson.

And no, the Israelis were not defending themselves. They made the first strike. They were wrong. They could have tried a bit harder for a diplomatic solution OR they could have done a stealth-surgical method to remove the hostages as they did before in Egypt (I think that's the country). Instead they just bombed the crap out of Lebanon and all it did was make Hezbollah look good.

I have one question for all those that believe socialistic health care would be best - Do you really want your health to be a political debate? Because that is what will happen. An 'internet friend' of mine moved to a 'nanny state'. She loved it at first. Especially the free health care. But when her husband got really sick, the hospital that they went to didn't have enough money to treat him. The govt only dishes out so much money, and when they run out - too bad, so sad - you aint gonna be treated there. They had to go to several hospitals to find one with money left to help them. Here's the deal - you have to get sick at the beginning of the year, not the end. People who get sick at the end of the year get screwed because the money is running out and the hospital can't treat the one person when they have hundreds that need treating too.

When it comes to helping the poor and the homeless - we need to restructure the welfare system. It is probably one of the more corrupt government programs. People who need only temperary help to get them through the bad time are being rejected because of the people that are on it full time and/or the people that are abusing the system. These temporary people are usually families that end up losing everything because someone was using the system when they could have easily gotten a job and worked. Free handouts can become addictive. Welfare needs to be something like the Habitat for Humanity. The people getting the house have to work 250 hours in helping with building the house (of course, physical limitations are concidered) and then they still have to pay an interest free mortgage. The families that received help from Habitat have a feeling of accomplishment and pride. They helped in helping their loved ones. But with welfare, you just receive the money without any feelings of dignity. If the people who can work do work for the welfare money (I'm sure many government jobs could be filled this way), then welfare will have enough money for the people who cannot work (disability etc.) or the people that need the temperary help. When I was really sick and needed help with housing I was told I couldn't get help because I didn't have any children. I was single, no family around, in and out of the hospital so I couldn't work full time and since I didn't have children I was SOL. HUH? At the time, I knew someone who was living in free housing, she had kids but she would dump them off at anyone's house so she could party. She said she couldn't work a full time job because didn't have enough money for daycare. (remember her 'dumping' her kids? she never paid those people - I know because I was one of them) She was working a full time job as a stripper but the place paid her under the table so she didn't have to tell anyone she had it. She made more money than me on any given day, but she got free housing and I was SOL. That is what needs to change. No one ever checked her out to see if she was telling the truth. One phone call to the apartment complex and they would have found out that she had money. (no, I'm not bitter. aaahhhhh)

And my two cents on health care - tort reform would do a world of good.

Rae - I will check out that band.... Thanks!

"You are bigoted because you appear to think that all Muslims are like the extremists."

Did I say that? No Rae. But, I wouldn't any more muslims into the country. It's just to dangerous, not all are extremists, but 25% of U.S. muslim men support terrorism froma recent pol.

"They could have tried a bit harder for a diplomatic solution"

Bull** for that, no negotiating with terrorist.

"And no, the Israelis were not defending themselves. They made the first strike. They were wrong."

No, hezobollah did, they took their soldiers. I was hoping they would've gone into Syria too.

Pat Robertson is not a nut case.

@Valerie: I do agree with the restructuring welfare, because all it does really is keep the poor, poor, because once they get a foothold, all their help is yanked away and they tumble back into poverty. It's a suck-tacular situation.

I also think prescriptions shouldn't be so bloody expensive. It ticks me off that pharmaceutical companies feel it's ok to practically rob people who really need those medications with such insanely high prices.

Here's the band's myspace page so you can listen to some of the music (I know, it's myspace, but hey, it's the only place you can hear them really)
http://www.myspace.com/prettybalanced

How have you been lately? I just found out that my grandma had uterine and ovarian cancer back in the mid-90's and had chemo and radiation and I NEVER knew this. I was shocked/surprised and now concerned... :-/

i agree with the welfare thing valerie. In Wi we have "badger care" It's health care for families that have low income. I have a friend with 5 kids and they have been one it for 14 years. They are self imployed. I think that is crazy. If they can't get their business to turn enough profit in 14 years than I think they need to go find a paying job!

@Jasper: Yes, Pat Robertson is a nutcase.

We weren't the ones negotiating, stupid. It was between Israel and Lebanon, we had no part in it and our policies should NOT affect Israel's.

And yes, Hezbollah took the soldiers but there were many other alternatives to get them back other than just bombing the crap out of Lebanon, thus angering the poor, war-torn Lebanese and allowing Hezbollah to sweep in with aid to help and thus gain support from the poor, war-torn Lebanese. So it was bad judgment on Israel's part.

Why should they have gone into Syria? Their bone to pick was with Hezbollah which is in Lebanon. Not Syria. Sure they receive aid from Syria, but they also receive aid from Iran and I don't see you saying Israel should march into Iran (as that would be VERY STUPID and pretty much suicide).

it's free to them and covers 100%

I was refering to Israel not negotiating.

"And yes, Hezbollah took the soldiers but there were many other alternatives to get them back"

Oh really, so you know better than the Israelis? what arrogance, stop listening to your muslim boyfriend. I'm sick and tired of liberals blaming america nd Israel all of the time. I would trust and back the Israelis 100% of the time.

I can just see Rae's boyfriend now.....trashing America and Israel....and Rae sitting saying "yes, yes, oh your right, oh, america is so bad, christians are bad...do you like me know mr.muslim??""

I believe in the free market system.

Why do insurance compnaies get involved with health care anyway? Why has it become an entitlement?

I think if we detached insurance from the medical/health care profession, you would see more competition which always results in better service and better products at lower prices. Why teh medical profession has been made so highly paid is beyond me. We end up with greedy peopel who care nothing of people and are only in it for the money.

I propose a ten year phase out of insurance companies paying for any health care.

As far as socialism goes, the Bible says if a man doesn't work he shouldn't eat. The Soviet Union is a supreme example of socialism's failure and France is learning same as that country's economy is crumbling. If someone is able bodied we do them a huge disservice by giving them money for doing nothing.

We should always take care of the unborn, the sick, the dying, the aged, and as far as the poor, money is really the last thing they need. They need vision for what they can do for themselves based on their God-given talents and abilities.

Also, the governemnt should get out of the welfare business. This is the mandate for the church. The church should take care of the poor from a biblical perspective.

We should reduce the size of governemnt, reduce taxes, and restore the church to it's rightful place in society.

Yeah, a good old revival is on order.

@Jasper: Oh good for you, thanks for showing your bigotry and racism. Way to go. :)

He's not my boyfriend. I said I dated him, and that I haven't spoken to him in awhile. Though when we do talk, it's usually NOT about politics as he doesn't care about that stuff. Sure, he's concerned for his family and he hopes they are some place safe, but beyond that, he doesn't really say anything to me or otherwise.

I don't trash America. Sure, I disagree with our foreign policies, but that doesn't make me hate America. And yes, I can disagree with the way Israel goes about it's business, but I don't hate Israel. The fact that all those extremist Muslims want to destroy Israel is just stupid to me, there is really no point in doing so, the Jews will still consider it to be their land and they will still go there.

And Jasper, you just make my job so much easier when you have nothing better to say other than liberals are evil. I could say the same thing about conservatives...afterall conservatives are the ones that were against ending slavery, against women's rights, against the civil rights movement and ignored the AIDS crisis. So thanks :)

@HisMan: I agree with getting rid of insurance companies...they are pretty much the reason hospitals either don't treat or give sub-par care to those who can't afford insurance. It's quite depressing.

Unfortunately I disagree with everything else you said, but at least we agree on one point. Agreeing on something is better than nothing at all, I think...step in a more positive direction, mayhaps?

"..afterall conservatives are the ones that were against ending slavery, against women's rights, against the civil rights movement and ignored the AIDS crisis. So thanks :"

ah, wow, you really don't know your facts. Abe Lincoln was a repulican. A much bigger percentage of republicans voted for the civil rights bills in the 60's than the democrats. George W Bush has given more money to africa than any other president. and against a womans right to kill her baby, we'll yes, we're against that.

"The fact that all those extremist Muslims want to destroy Israel is just stupid to me, there is really no point in doing so"

we'll, how kind of you!

"the Jews will still consider it to be their land and they will still go there."

because it is their land, what do you want to do? push them into the sea? It's a tiny sliver of land in the vast middle east.

@Jasper: I know it's their land, that's why I think it's pointless for the Muslim extremists to try to get rid of them. You need to practice your reading comprehension.

And also, back in Lincoln's day, the republicans were liberal and the democrats were conservative, so I am correct. Republican does not necessarily = conservative. And I know about the higher percentage of republicans voting in favor of civil rights as back then the democrats were a majority of southern DIXICRATS...also known as southern democrats, which weren't by any stretch of the imagination, liberal.

As for George Bush giving money to Africa (one of the only things he's ever done right, so I do give him props for doing so), that's fantastic. But it's almost too little too late, considering it was REAGAN who ignored it because he didn't want to believe AIDS could be spread through heterosexual sex, he was convinced only "immoral" and "undesirables" folks like homosexuals and drug users got AIDS, which was later found to be untrue.

Conservatives were also against women voting as it was "tradition to stay in the kitchen and pop out babies" instead of getting jobs and what not. In some ways, this is still prevalent today. I don't consider abortion a women's rights issue so that's not even worth discussing.

"But it's almost too little too late, considering it was REAGAN who ignored it because he didn't want to believe AIDS could be spread through heterosexual sex, he was convinced only "immoral" and "undesirables" folks like homosexuals and drug users got AIDS, which was later found to be untrue."

Yes, and he was right. I don't know were you got that word "undesirables" though. but AIDS is primarily a disease that homosexuals get from anal sex. Plus, it's preventable through moral behavior. So, yes he was right about the immorality of it.

"And also, back in Lincoln's day, the republicans were liberal and the democrats were conservative, so I am correct."

Not.

"Yes, and he was right. I don't know were you got that word "undesirables" though. but AIDS is primarily a disease that homosexuals get from anal sex. Plus, it's preventable through moral behavior. So, yes he was right about the immorality of it."

Nope, he was wrong. In Africa, AIDS was rampant among heterosexual men and women because of "femmes libres" or "free women" aka part-time hookers (in South East Asia, HIV is spread through the sex-slave trade, or FORCED prostitution). Now they also have AIDS spreading through contamination of needles due to non-sterile conditions (and this is also occurring in the Middle East, which has the lowest number of AIDS cases...wonder why?). So you are wrong in saying that it's mostly a "gay disease". But I shouldn't expect more from a bigot like you. If you'd do your research you would know this information.

Also, AIDS is not always preventable. Take a baby, when it's born to a woman with AIDS, the baby is often born with HIV (unless precautions are taken, but that occasionally isn't employed if the woman is poor or in an area with little medical care). That baby did nothing wrong to deserve getting HIV. Snap.

Oh, and what about blood transfusions, while theoretically it is more or less impossible to get HIV through transfusions, this occurred rampantly in the 80's and early 90's. It still happens frequently in impoverished nations like Africa.

@Jasper: Then give me a link proving me wrong, as this is what I was taught in my AP History class, that Republicans were "liberal" in the 1800's and the Democrats were "conservative". Believe it or not, but party positions do in fact change over time.

That's what I was taught as well, Rae, in both American History and American governement classes.

@Heather B: But we must be being lied to by the liberal teachers and the evil liberal education system. Oh noez!

Of course, Rae. It's just one big conspiracy.

@Heather B: We iz bein' brainwashed by teh evil liberalzzzzz! Oh fritz!

It's those evil colleges, Rae, and their evil, evil agenda.

Anyway, since I'm a bit horrible with search engines, my wonderful friend Garrett compiled a list of the various parties. They're mostly links and then there's a summary at the bottom, but still.

***

"I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic-Republican_Party

II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Party_%28United_States%29

III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Liberal_Republican_Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populist_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29

IV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1912%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1924%29

V
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixiecrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_%28United_States%2C_1948%29

VI
(characterized by a bunch of minor parties)

Then there are also offsets of these various main party shifts including the Libertarians and Neo-Conservatives

I wrote this awhile back:

Classical Liberalism is a political doctrine which is best summarized as a synthesis of economic liberalism and political liberalism. A heavy emphasis is put on individual rights and an economy based off of free markets. A central tenet of Classical Liberalism is the "invisible hand", or spontaneous order out of which a market arises towards society's benefit. Classical Liberalism was pioneered by thinkers such as Adam Smith, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, and Jeremy Bentham.
Classical Conservatism found its root in The Age of Reason. It was a counter to the Enlightenment which stressed Reason as the proper formulation for government. Edmund Burke said that some people lack more reason than others and so Reason could not be the answer. Instead, Burke said that government should be derived from the state, family, the Church, and other time honored societal institutions. Classical Conservatism states that wisdom in governance should be pulled from tradition to avoid acting in a way that produces unintended consequences. It is hard to define Conservatism in any one way, because there are so many variations of it. The scholar R.J. White said, "To put conservatism in a bottle with a label is like trying to liquefy the atmosphere�The difficulty arises from the nature of the thing. For conservatism is less a political doctrine than a habit of mind, a mode of feeling, a way of living."
Classical Liberalism is all about absolute freedom and minimal government; where as Classical Conservatism is about pulling from tradition and utilizing already existing social institutions. Classical Liberalism's political and economic policies can be found in the Republican party of the 80's to early 90's. It is debatable whether or not they are still present as a political ideology in the major parties as they both seem to contribute to the expansion of government. Modern Liberalism maintains Classical Liberalism's social ideology which is that of non-intervention. That is to say the individual's life and rights are sovereign and can not be altered. Modern Liberalism rejects Classical Liberalism's political and economic ideologies and instead takes on an interventional role for the state. Classical Conservatism and Modern Conservatism both seem to revert back to tradition, however Modern Conservatism seems to concentrate more on returning to a prior "status quo". Across the board there is cultural conservatism which seeks maintain a set of "values"; religious conservatism which seeks to preserve particular teachings of a religion; and even neo-conservatism which is inherent in the current administration. The best example of Classical Liberalism in the modern political system is found in the Libertarian Party."

"as this is what I was taught in my AP History class, that Republicans were "liberal" in the 1800's and the Democrats were "conservative" "

that figures.

conservatives are racist/bad by nature huh Rae?

and please stop calling me a racist and a bigot.
(liberals always like to play the race card, although liberals are the ones who like to keep minorities dependent on the government, it keeps them in power )

Good-Night Rae

I'll find that source for the classical/modern summary. It's in one of my books. Don't mess with a Physics/Philosophy/Poli Sci major. Thinking is what I do

@Jasper: Nope, not all conservatives are racist or bad by nature. My vati is conservative and he is far from racist nor is he bad.

And I call you a bigot because you are one, I am only calling a spade a spade, much as you do when you call me and other like-minded individuals "pro-deathers" or "pro-aborts" or "evil baby-killing sinners" or my personal fave "satan-worshipers".

And you are a bigot. Get over it. There is a difference between racist and bigot, and while I don't think you are a racist, you are definitely a bigot.

You keep stereotyping too...I don't want to keep minorities dependent, I want them to be independent of the government, for example, no longer relying on welfare via welfare reforms (so that it *actually* helps those who need it instead of just throwing money at a problem and hoping for it to go away).

Good night Jasper. It was delightful conversation.

Well the health care system is so full of bureaucracy bullcrap it's hard to find where the true problem(s) lies, at times. I am not a big expert on the system (yet), but if we do have some sort of socialized health care I would prefer a system that provides free or sliding scale insurance, it might be a better system. (Don't hold me to that, it's just an idea).

I haven't been on forever, sorry, the wireless internet in my house hasn't been the same since the last thunderstorm, so I'm on the house comp right now.

I basically came on because I saw some stuff I want to comment on.

I saw Knocked up tonight!! While it ran long at times it was a great comedy! It had dramatic moments and really funny ones too. I definitely recommend it especially to you mommies :) (I was definitely surprised about how realistic the birth scene was--it showed crowning and everything)
Interesting to note to other pro-lifers, that her mom and the father's friend both recommended abortion. And referred to it as "taking care of it." Another interesting thing, her mom insinuated that she wasn't strong enough to have both baby and career, her reasoning for the abortion.

Also yesterday I saw the episode on Sex and the City where Miranda learns she is pregnant. I think the way they did it was actually very beautiful because that was the same time that Charlotte learned that she wouldn't be able to have children so you see how desperate Charlotte is and her disbelief and horror at Miranda's "decision" to get an abortion. She gratefully decides to keep it in the end, but in the episode Carrie explores her past abortion and remarks that she would be completely different if she had it(that is when I leaned over to my sister and said "adoption"). A good moment I thought was when Miranda asked when Carrie felt back to normal after her abortion. She said "any day now."

Jasper -

do you have a source for that gem about 25% of American Muslims "supporting terrorism"?

Im guessing in typical Jasper fashion, it was more like 25% of American Muslims would protest the Bush regime, and you twisted it to fit your point, because *newflash* you're a bigot.

I am Lebanese. My pro-choice Republican mother is Lebanese, and my pro-choice Republican grandmother is Lebanese. OHNOEZZZ I must be a terrorist!!! I love listening to people like you stereotype an entire group of people you clearly know nothing about. And when I say I love it, its only because it displays for anyone with half a brain how ignorant you are.
Half the population of Lebanon is CATHOLIC. How many Catholics do you think died in the attacks? Plenty. But of course you completely ignore that and focus on Hezbollah. Because somehow one terrorist organization existing in a country makes it okay to bomb thousands of uninvolved civilians?!

Based on your statements about Lebanon - Im guessing you'd support bombing entire states in the US if they find terrorist cells there? Who cares about all those civilians? Why not take out a few libs while we're at it, right??

jasper, i dont even know what to say. All your comments so far involving muslims have been so obviously twisted and bigoted, that i have no idea where you can come up with those views. Though sadly it doesnt surprise me.

oh, and jasper, another little point. Its been said, but just to reiterate it. Democrats used to be the conservatives and republicans the liberals way back when. However, previous party systems are a bit hard to compare to modern system, at least in some respects. It just happens that each of those leaned to the opposite side than the names imply today.

Rae,

However, if I were the person I am today, with the same free will and I saw how people were so obedient and following God's laws and there was no evil in the world, chances are that yes, I would believe at that point as God is more or less showing that He has the power to destroy our sinful nature to make us the perfect people we were meant to be.

You do realize, don't you, that you just described Christianity? You are the person you are today, with the same free will and you see how people are obedient and following God's laws and while there is still evil, "true" and I emphasize "TRUE" Christians are not causing it. He is showing that He has the power to "destroy our sinful nature and to make us the perfect people we were meant to be". That's why He died on the cross. So that we would have a chance at eventual perfection. Any mistakes we make are erased and we are physically reborn in Heaven.

Everything you asked for. And we still have free will. Everything you described, and we "CHOSE" it.

So what are you waiting for? :)

mk

Rae,

On Deism...

So you have a hard time believing in a God, who loves you, watches over you, takes an interest in His creation and asks you to participate? This is too far a stretch for you?

But you have no problem accepting a god who created you, this world and everything in it, but abandoned it and never looked back?

If you take this thought process a little further, it's easy to see why we Christians, want to have interaction with each other and be actively involved in ridding the world of evil. Why we can't just sit by and "let things happen". Why we feel compelled to try and change things for the better. We believe that we were created in the "Image of God" and must try to act as much like Him as possible.

If you were also created in the image of your god, it explains why you are so cavalier about things like abortion. Your god, or your understanding of him, has taught you to remove yourself from that which you create. To abandon that which you are part of. To separate yourself from others. No wonder you are able to ignore certain evils. Your god does the same thing.

No offense intended, sincerely, but your faith sounds very depressing and hopeless. I'm sorry for that. I can't imagine living in a world where the greatest thing that exists, your god, doesn't give a rat's patootie about you.

Maybe you can explain it to me better than wikipedia did. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.
Your view just leaves me empty. And I sought far too long and hard for the truth to be happy with the thought that there is a god, but he/it's selfish, cold and heartless...

mk

Rae, On Israel-

Do you realize that more missles are fired upon Israel daily in these times than were fired in the entire gulf war?

Israel has been under constant attack since handing Gaza over. Their gesture only caused more hatred and killing.

I think you are failing to undertand that the whole of the middle east HATES Israel and will never cease their attacks. They realize that the world's liberals have turned against Israel and are using that to their advantage. They are using anti-israel propaganda and our mainstream media is eating it up.

Do you remember the photoshopped and staged photos that the "poor Lebanons" used to employ sympathy and cast shaddows on Israel? Probably not.

Don't believe me?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/866416.html

"Ahmadinejad said last summer's war between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon showed for the first time hegemony of the occupier regime [Israel] collapsed and that pushed the button counting the days until the destruction of Zionist regime, IRNA quoted him as saying.

God willing, in near future we will witness destruction of the corrupt occupier regime, Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying during a speech to foreign guests who attended ceremonies marking the 18th anniversary of the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who is known as the father of Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution."

And on liberals hating Israel-

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=11681§ionid=351020202

A resolution calling for a boycott has been placed on the agenda for the group's annual national conference starting June 19 said Mary McGuire, a spokeswoman for Unison on Thursday.

"During 2006, Israel invaded Lebanon and Gaza, withheld tax revenues form the Palestine Authority and refused dialogue with the elected Authority following the democratic elections of January 2006, resealed the borders of Gaza, expanded illegal settlements in the West Bank, and continued the construction of the illegal Apartheid Wall," the union noted in a statement.

It also accused the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair of adopting �a consistent stand in support of the Zionist regime throughout the shameful events of 2006, even joining the US in failing to call for a cease-fire amidst worldwide condemnation of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.�

The movement in Britain to boycott Israel economically and culturally is gathering speed as the country's biggest labor union said it would follow the union of university instructors in weighing punitive measures against Israel.

Which goes so far as this:

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/8555

The Executive of the public services Unison has rejected a proposal from the relevant union committee to give money to the international trade-union news website Labourstart, on the grounds that one of the people involved in running Labourstart is a "Zionist".

It is a sort of "boycott before the boycott", a pre-emptive application of motion 54 to Unison conference, which proposes a boycott of all Israeli institutions.

Labourstart provides an unparalleled breadth of information on workers' struggles and workers' organisations worldwide, including in the Occupied Territories.

At the Executive no-one objected to Labourstart's coverage. The objection was to its founding editor, Eric Lee. Eric is now only one of 79 contributors world-wide to Labourstart.

But - and that was enough to damn the whole project in the eyes of the Executive - Eric is a Zionist. He has been associated with left-Zionist parties in Israel such as Mapam and Meretz.

Nobody proposed checking out the other 78 Labourstart correspondents for their views.

The basic argument is that the union cannot support projects, however worthwhile, if the people running them are Jewish. Supporters of "boycotting" Labourstart will reply that the objection is not that people like Eric Lee are Jewish, but that they are "Zionists". But to brand left Zionists like Eric as outside the range of people whom we can work with is to "boycott" almost all Jews around the world.

Im a liberal who supports israel, choose whether or not to believe that after the response if you will, but lets look at this.

the article says the U.S. and Britain essentially said/did nothing after Israel invaded lebanon and performed illegal actions. Now, if the name Israel were replaced with any other country, what would have happened? The U.S. and Britain most likely would have quickly denounced the invasion/actions and probably employ sanctions against the country. I see this as protesting the hypocrisy of the governments for not acting when they would have had it been any other country, and the protest of every country to its border integrity, which would include Lebanon as well as Israel.

Really now, how does that reflect on the US and Britain if we arent willing to admit someone on our side did something wrong and should be treated like any other country for doing so?

Erin, I hope you had a safe trip! I hope you are okay.

Dan - The US did denounce the action of Isreal. So, I'm not sure your point.

not according to the article that was provided,

"It also accused the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair of adopting �a consistent stand in support of the Zionist regime throughout the shameful events of 2006, even joining the US in failing to call for a cease-fire amidst worldwide condemnation of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.�"

Do you remember the photoshopped and staged photos that the "poor Lebanons" used to employ sympathy and cast shaddows on Israel? Probably not.

Lauren, I remember...here are some of them:

http://zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/doctoredphotos1.html

Rae -

I think the problem with some things is the way you are looking at Isreal and the middle east. You are seeing it through the eyes of today and forgetting what got us here. Start with the Crusades, I believe there were 7 of them (but then I think there may have been 10) The history channel did a wonderful documentary on this. One of the Monty Python guys was the 'host' - I think it was Eric Idle but may be wrong on that. Now there were already problems before the Crusades but the 1st crusade is similar to 9/11 meaning it was a moment that got the attention of all sides. The invasion of what is now eastern Turkey by Islam got the emperor in Constatinoble to write a letter to the Pope asking for military assistance. He was asking for knights to come and help, but the Pope sent regular people, and told them it was there holy duty to knock Islam back. This is the beginning.

Look up: The Arian Heresy's - this is the beginning of Islam. Read about the Crusades. Read about the Ottoman Empire invasions of Europe - they went all the way to Vienna Austria where they were defeated around 1580. Read about the invasion of France by the Mores. Read about the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI that led to Britain governing most of the middle east and North Africa.

This should be a start. It is facinating history and something that is only briefly taught in school. Knowing how all these countries formed and how the religions criss crossed each other will let you see why we are were we are now.

There is so much more to it than the Jews fighting Hezbollah.

Bethany, thanks for the links!

I forgot about the "wailing woman" lol! Poor woman, she had not one, not two, not three, but FOUR apartments blown away!

As for the US not denouncing Israel...We didn't fire bomb Israel into submission, but the United States made it clear that they did not support Israel's actions.

Dan -

The first word in your paragraph "It" refers to UNISON who is asking for a boycott of the products made in Isreal.

When you see the word "zionist" realize that it is the same word that Hezbollah, Fatah, Hamas, Al Queda etc. use - All anti-semetic groups.

AND that article, I believe, was posted to show how liberals hate Israel. hmmmm......

The thing that is so insane about the UNISON boycott is that the Universities in Israel have been the one consistant voice for compromise with Palistine.

Blah my brain isn't working today.

*Palestine

Aside from the moral repulsiveness of admitting that one would rather pay for an innocent child to be put to death than "get stuck with supporting it," there's the logical falacy inherent in the statement. It assumes that those are the two choices: a one-time layout for a dead fetus, or 18 years of supporting a welfare child. It's so bogus I can't even think of a parallel that's as absurd.

But I'll try:

"I'd rather go to a prostitue than be forced to rape my wife."

"I'd rather give disturbed teens knives so they can stab their classmates than have them all pull a Columbine."

"We should give all disgruntled postal workers .22 calibur pistols, so that they won't go postal with higher-calibur ammo and kill more people."

Sexually frustrated men have other choices besides prostitutes and spousal rape. Disturbed teens don't have to kill their classmates. And postal workers can be disgruntled without "going postal."

Poor women can have babies without becoming welfare queens.

valerie, plenty of liberals dont hate israel.

second, look at the definition of zionism.

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

which technically would make it a zionist regime, the vocab is proper, though very odd.

Lauren, how was that made clear? We didnt call for a cease fire, nor were any sanctions made against Israel, the US virtually did nothing

Rae, what few people know about those evil pharmaceutical companies is that they have programs to provide medicine free to the uninsured and the income guidelines for eligibility are very liberal.

Dan, you know as well as I that only two types of people use the word "zionist". The first are Jews who use the word possitively.

The next are people who hate all Jews and spit after saying the word.

I'm betting this is an example of the latter group.

Do you remember last summer? All we heard was how terrible Israel is and how mean they are to the "poor" terrorists. Bush et. all did nothing to buffer those statements. The UNISON is just upset that they didn't do enough to "improve Palestinian relations".

"Do you remember last summer? All we heard was how terrible Israel is and how mean they are to the "poor" terrorists."

I actually dont get to watch the news during the summer, i work for like 18 hours during each day, all i know was that there was a bigger conflict than usual. As for the "poor terrorists", they may be vile evil people, but they still have basic human rights that they should be allowed to excercise, the U.S. is still getting crap for how we treat terrorists/suspected terrorists, not to mention guantanomo

relations in the middle-east do need to be improved. Though, that is and most likely always will be amazingly difficult

Amanda,

here you go:

http://www.freedomszone.com/archives/2007/05/twenty_five_percent_of_young_a.php

now, continue with the name calling.

Dan, be careful, otherwise I'll have to put you over my nee and give you a spanking.

I support Israel because God supports Israel, and as a Christian, I am commanded to.

There would be no Christianity if it weren't for the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, all the apostles were Jews, the Bible, both Old and New Testaments - all 666 Books, were written by Jews. You think God is trying to tell us something?

We would be wise to heed His warning about His chosen people that says: "I will bless those who bless you an dcurse those who curse you".

God made Abraham an everlasting covenant.

please explain to me Dan where my statements above are racist or bigoted.

"all 666 books"

Uh...Hisman, what are you talking about?

"the article says the U.S. and Britain essentially said/did nothing after Israel invaded lebanon and performed illegal actions. Now, if the name Israel were replaced with any other country, what would have happened?"

so what? you expect Irael not to defend itself. silly terror supporting liberal. Dan, do you know was involved in blowing up the marine barracks in 83'

read this article libs, why it happened just today. The call for the destruction of Israel.

If I was the Israelis, I would take this very seriously and start bombing Iran's uranium enriching facilities.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSBLA32653020070603?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

there is I think an unfortunate understanding of Christianity,

Many pro-choicers here and (problematic-Christians too) seem to think that the thrust of Christianity is to be set apart .... they believe Christianity is about being better Christians. The whole thrust of Christianity is in fact to become fully human .... to become the creatures we are created as.

It really is hard to figure this out when there are so many who do not live as though they are 'temples of the Holy Spirit'. I love the comments of an infrequent poster here (a few weeks back). 'we are the only Bible many will ever read and we may even have to use words too' ... she claimed these thoughts were from St. Francis...

@Lauren: I honestly don't hate Israel. Liberal as I may be, I don't hate them, sure I disagree at times with some of their past and present foreign policy, but that doesn't constitute a hatred for them. I do see where they are coming from and why they do the things they do. But they have made mistakes, just as any other nation has made mistakes. Israel is not perfect and we should not treat them as such.

It is a shame that so many radical Islamists feel the need to eradicate Israel and nuke them off the map (mostly because they obviously haven't thought through the fact that if they bomb the crap out of Israel, they would be bombing the crap out of thousands of Palestinian Muslims as well that and it is unnecessary and wrong to do so). It's ridiculous that these nations feel that by removing Israel all their problems will be solved, which is false.

I don't understand *why* these countries want to get rid of Israel and *why* they hate the Jews so much when the flippin' Qur'an says that Muslims are to respect Judaism and followers of the faith. It is quite revolting how the extremists have bastardized their own sacred text to further their own anti-semitic agenda. I know of Jews here in the US that are friends with Muslims and vice versa, so I know there is no inherent hatred between the two groups, but a taught one done by extremists on both sides.

Also the fact that more missles were launched at Israel than in the Gulf War, I believe that to be true, but you have to remember Hezbollah =/= Lebanon and I don't think they are a good group. They are terrorists. What I had said about all the August War did was make Hezbollah look good is somewhat true as they did sweep in with aid and assistance to areas that were bombed by Israel. That whole situation was handled very poorly by both the Israelis and Hezbollah and Israel has admitted to the fact that they had made a mistake in bombing Lebanon and are doing an inquiry into the incident(though Hezbollah has yet to do the same, and quite frankly, they should as they were just as wrong as the Israelis in that situation).

@Valerie: I know there is more to the conflict than just Hezbollah and Israel. I know that the radical Islamists want to see Israel gone and I know that is wrong. Perhaps I'll look into a class about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict so as to learn more about the history of the conflict because it really is fascinating.

But just let me say this, I had a professor back when I was doing PSEO at a local community college who was a Palestinian refugee from Jordan. It was a World Contemporary Literature class and we were reading some short stories and poetry about Palestine and he told us his story. When he was young, the country of Palestine was dissolved and recreated as Israel. Soon after, all the Palestinians were kicked off of their land and their homes and property was seized by the new Israeli government. They were homeless and no longer had any money. His family fled into the orange groves and his mother was pregnant at the time and had to give birth in the middle of no-where and the baby died from exposure. Soon his family made it to Jordan and began living in a refugee camp and today his mother and siblings *still* live in that refugee camp. He managed to get out because he had the highest test score on a Jordanian exam for college and the Jordanian government chose to give a poor Palestinian refugee the opportunity to go to college in America, and he did. He now has a PhD. He is angry yes, that his family was forced from their homeland and now live in squalid conditions in Jordan, but he says that the radical Islamist bombings in Israel are un-called for and will do nothing to help solve the problems between Israel and Palestine. He hopes that one day there will be peace and that the Israelis and Palestinians can live together.

His story as well as the readings we did for the class really helped me see the conflict through new eyes and to feel sympathy for the Palestinians and to realize they aren't entirely evil and bad like some people think they are. Both sides have committed wrongs in this conflict and both sides are suffering because of said wrongs and that isn't right.

@MK:

"So you have a hard time believing in a God, who loves you, watches over you, takes an interest in His creation and asks you to participate? This is too far a stretch for you?

But you have no problem accepting a god who created you, this world and everything in it, but abandoned it and never looked back?"

It makes more sense to me that God created the world (or at least jump-started evolution and what not billions of years ago) and abandoned it because of all the things that are wrong with the world. That's just the way I see it. If God were truly involved, we wouldn't have the conflicts in the Middle East, we wouldn't have people killing other people based on their sexual orientation, race or religion. If God truly loved us and cared, we wouldn't have diseases like AIDS and cancer killing numerous people for no reason. That's what makes me think God abandoned us, the sheer fact there is so much unnecessary suffering and poverty and death in the world makes me think that God abandoned us.

"If you were also created in the image of your god, it explains why you are so cavalier about things like abortion. Your god, or your understanding of him, has taught you to remove yourself from that which you create. To abandon that which you are part of. To separate yourself from others. No wonder you are able to ignore certain evils. Your god does the same thing."

Perhaps that is the case, but I think it's more based on the fact that I barely value my own life, and think that I am dispensable and not really necessary that makes me think the way I do, not necessarily the God I believe in.

"No offense intended, sincerely, but your faith sounds very depressing and hopeless. I'm sorry for that. I can't imagine living in a world where the greatest thing that exists, your god, doesn't give a rat's patootie about you.

Maybe you can explain it to me better than wikipedia did. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.
Your view just leaves me empty. And I sought far too long and hard for the truth to be happy with the thought that there is a god, but he/it's selfish, cold and heartless..."

No offense taken, I understand that you don't agree with my interpretation of God, but that is how I see it based on the world around me. If God created human beings in his image, and human beings are selfish, cold and heartless, it makes sense that God is the same way, is it not?

And perhaps wikipedia didn't explain it terribly well, but it does show that just because somebody doesn't believe in the Christian God doesn't mean they are amoral as Diests do have morals and codes that are derived from reason, if that makes sense.

Perhaps this link might help in describing it a bit better than wikipedia did, as it also gives sources for extra reading:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm

Hey Rae,

If God never allowed bad things to happen in world, how would we ever know what "good" is?

Regarding Israel:

Given that there's a city called Mecca, where only Muslims can go, and Jews cannot go even as tourists, shouldn't there be another city somewhere in the middle east where only Jews can go and Muslims are forbidden, even as tourists?

After all, fair is fair, and equal is equal.

@Jasper: If God never let bad things happen why would it matter as everything would be good so we wouldn't even have to think about it.

Rae,

If God created human beings in his image, and human beings are selfish, cold and heartless, it makes sense that God is the same way, is it not?

This is my point, Rae.

If God, (My God) created us in His image, and asked us to try and live up to it, then those of us who actually DO that are not the ones wreaking havoc!

Look at any evil in the world, and then look to see who perpetrating it. If they claim to do it in the name of God, then look to God's word. If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably. But for the most part you will see that they are non-believers (believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it).

As John said earlier, quoting St. Francis...."Preach the Gospel everywhere. Use words if you have to!"

But evil occurs when you don't follow Jesus' teachings.

If human beings are acting selfish, cold and heartless, it is precisely because they are NOT living up to being creatures made in His image. Blame them, not the God who made them.

By believing in a God that gave up, you have demoted him from a deity to an insignificant character in the theatre of life. This is not God, but a god.

Following a god, is the same as following a demon.

Even the angels were given free will...and you know what happened there.

You have two forces fighting for you're soul.

God. and Satan.

If your life, actions and beliefs are not in accord with God's, then they must be in accord with Satan, even if you refer to satan as your deistic God.

This is the great deception. Being the father of all that is false, he lures you into rejecting a loving God, thereby robbing you of "hope", real "love" and "truth".

I can't believe that you are being so easily duped.

Are you afraid to hope? Has "hoping" let you down so often that you are going to spend eternity avoiding it? Is life that bad? I think if I believed as you do, I would have slit my throat a long time ago! When I try to see the world through your (and some of the other posters here) eyes, I get so depressed...how do you guys wake up in the morning? What do you count on? Who do you trust? Where do you turn? What is your part in the whole picture?

Help me to understand, because I honestly think that this view is seriously without any value. It's hollow and empty. Better to believe in nothing than to believe that there is a god and that he couldn't care less about you.

Bishop Sheen says:

"Nature speaks to us in the reproachful language of pain when we violate its laws, for example, break a bone. A toothache proves nature has a tongue, bidding us remedy the evil. Conscience too has a voice; it bids us turn back again to God with every remorse."

But there are some diseases that kill without the voice of pain - cancer that destroys in silence. So too with the conscience. If it no longer speaks in remorse, think not that you are healthy. Your soul may be dead. Our Lord will answer you nothing then, even when you robe Him as a fool. Then the hush about the cross to which you have sent Him will be His last appeal."

"Probably the worst punishment God can visit upon a soul is to leave it alone"

I realize I just got preachy and perhaps a little too harsh, but I am just having such a hard time understanding what it must be like to view the world as you do. It scares me. It makes me want my mommy! And it makes me even happier that I can turn to my "Father" and say, "I'm frightened Daddy. Hold me. Everything is SO big, and I feel SO small", and hear Him answer, "Be not afraid. I am with you. Always."

MK

Rae,

@Jasper: If God never let bad things happen why would it matter as everything would be good so we wouldn't even have to think about it.

There is such a place. But to get there you must first pass a test. The test being multiple choice.

If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't need a savior.

But we are, and we have one, and the place that you speak of, this place where everything is Good, and Evil does not show it's face, already exists.

The question is, do you choose to go there?

I realize you want it NOW, but that's now how God laid it out. He shows us both worlds, and says, "which one do you want?". Then depending on your answer, He shows you how to get there. This life, this "world" is really just the train depot. You've gotta tell the conductor your destination. And then you can't complain when you end up it Pittsburgh instead of Santa Barbara. After all, you purchased your own ticket!

mk

Rae, here is something I found that might help explain further...

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

I think that you have your mind made up, but it couldn't hurt to put that up there...I don't know why but some people do believe that God must conform to their idea of what God should be like. Did we create God? Can we mold God to our liking?

And I don't see how, if God was powerful, wise, and intelligent enough to be able to create us, why do we not give Him credit that He is capable of knowing what is best in other situations?

What kind of a God would be capable of creating an entire universe, world, humans, animals, everything we know of ...and not be capable of knowing what to do when things go "wrong"?

If your view of God is that He is a weakling who walks away when he "makes mistakes", that is a very, very sad idea of God, and depressing.

I believe that not only is God capable of creating us and our world, He is very much involved and He uses every bad situation for His perfect will. You don't understand why He allows it? Well, that's okay, but that doesn't mean that God is in error simply because you, part of His creation, do not understand everything He does and why He does it.

We are people who live on earth. We live a short amount of time, then we die. We only can know what we have experienced on this earth.

God's infinite intelligence and wisdom is so much higher than ours, and that is self evident. Can you or I actually create a life from nothing? Can you or I create a world and make it function, all from nothing? If you or I or all of human kind have not been able to duplicate what God has been able to create, then how can we possibly think that we have more intelligence than God, or think that we have better solutions than God does?

"Are you afraid to hope? Has "hoping" let you down so often that you are going to spend eternity avoiding it? Is life that bad? I think if I believed as you do, I would have slit my throat a long time ago! When I try to see the world through your (and some of the other posters here) eyes, I get so depressed...how do you guys wake up in the morning? What do you count on? Who do you trust? Where do you turn? What is your part in the whole picture?"

I am afraid to hope because I have hoped before and it has done nothing but let me down, so instead I look at the most negative possible outcome so if anything just remotely better happens, then I am satisfied.

I wake up in the morning with great difficulty, always have, always will probably. Even when I was "Catholic", it never really made sense to me and gave me nothing but despair. I have learned not to count on anybody because all people do is let you down, as does God, which is why I think he has abandoned us. I trust nobody because I have had my trust betrayed far too many times. I turn to nobody and I really have no purpose in the big picture but to aimlessly exist until I croak. Negative, of course it is, but unfortunately, it's how I see the world and quite frankly, I doubt it will ever change.

"If your life, actions and beliefs are not in accord with God's, then they must be in accord with Satan, even if you refer to satan as your deistic God."

Perhaps this usually why I never really bother trying to explain my beliefs, as it is assumed that if I don't believe in the Christian God, I must be following Satan, which is a purely Christian phenomena. But you know what? Go ahead, think I'm an evil satanic witch if that makes it easier for you to ease your conscience or whatever at night.

"Look at any evil in the world, and then look to see who perpetrating it. If they claim to do it in the name of God, then look to God's word. If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably. But for the most part you will see that they are non-believers (believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it)."

So are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

"By believing in a God that gave up, you have demoted him from a deity to an insignificant character in the theatre of life. This is not God, but a god.

Following a god, is the same as following a demon."

I'll make sure to tell my polytheistic friends that they are following demons. They'll find that entertaining I think.

o are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

Ever since the fall of Adam, I believe that every single one of us has a sin nature and is inherently evil, as a result of that fall. I don't think that believers in Jesus are perfect. We are not better for having accepted Jesus, just forgiven.

As for "believers" and people who killed in the name of Christ, have you read the verse:

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

@Bethany:

"God's infinite intelligence and wisdom is so much higher than ours, and that is self evident. Can you or I actually create a life from nothing? Can you or I create a world and make it function, all from nothing? If you or I or all of human kind have not been able to duplicate what God has been able to create, then how can we possibly think that we have more intelligence than God, or think that we have better solutions than God does?"

Well considering I don't believe in Creation or "Intelligent Design", I would have to say, nope, I don't think any of this. And actually, man has duplicated some of what God has created, in the 1950's or 1960's there was a man who's name I forget, who created the organic building blocks of life (amino acids and some various sugar compounds as well as nucleotides I think) from inorganic materials as a model of the primordial "soup" that life is thought to have come from. While it may not be *exact* at this time, it is pretty close and proves that it is in fact possible for organic material (living things) to come from inorganic material (non-living things).

Oh Rae,

Perhaps this usually why I never really bother trying to explain my beliefs, as it is assumed that if I don't believe in the Christian God, I must be following Satan, which is a purely Christian phenomena. But you know what? Go ahead, think I'm an evil satanic witch if that makes it easier for you to ease your conscience or whatever at night.

I am so sorry that that is what you heard. I never meant to imply that you are "willingly" following satan. Or that you are evil. Or a witch. That's so awful that you think I meant that. Quite the contrary, I think you are remarkable. Talented, sensitive, kind...which is why it is so incredibly sad that you are left without hope. I am truly saddened to hear that everyone in life has let you down so horribly. I just want to thrash them! You are so good...it comes through in every post you place on here. You are always so respectful, and patient. From where you sit, we must sound awfully judgmental and hard, but that is not really where we are coming from. It is the fact that we like you so much, that makes us want to reach out and offer you something so good and so wonderful. It is out of frustration, hearing your pain and being unable to help, that we pound away. You put up with us and for that I am soooo grateful.

Never, never, never did I mean to say that you were and evil satan worshipping witch!

The problem is that by turning your back on God because you believe He turned his back on you, you are falling in a trap that satan has set for you. You don't need to "worship" him, to do his bidding. You don't even need to believe in him. You just need to reject God, and satan does the rest.

Be at peace Rae. I love you, and never want to see you hurting. Now you've got me blubbering again! Just remember that Bethany, Valerie and I are here for you, whenever and if ever you need us. For real. Kay?

Mk, you said it so well. That is exactly how I feel.
We are not trying to condemn you or call you names, Rae. We are trying to help you, as you seem to sincerely be asking these questions from your heart. Like MK said, if you ever need us, we are here.

Rae,

So are you saying that all the people who don't believe in Jesus are inherently evil and wicked? I think that is crap, there are bad people whether they be "believers" (like the saintly Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell) or "non-believers" (like Osama bin Laden or Joseph Stalin). The crusades were done in Jesus' name, and I highly doubt Jesus would agree with people killing Muslims in the name of God. People settled the "New Land" in God's name and stole the land from the Native Americans and let them die in squalid conditions from starvation and small pox.

I repeat my clarification, because I was afraid this would happen...

If the actions do not match the words in the bible, then they are liars or at the very least, failing miserably.

and

(believers being those that follow Jesus. You can't just claim to follow him, your actions must show it).

Believers can be following satan the same way non-believers can be following God, yet neither of them realizing it.

"God is truth, and whoever seeks the truth is seeking God, whether they know it or not."
-Edith Stein

See, what frustrates me is that people assume that without the knowledge and worhip of a Christian God, I can never be happy. Then it all falls down to that "no one but Christians have morality" and then it's just downhill from there. Bleah.

See, what frustrates me is that people assume that without the knowledge and worhip of a Christian God, I can never be happy.

Do you consider yourself to be happy? This is a sincere question, not trying to be judgemental. I honestly want to know your opinion...Are you a happy person, and do you have peace?

Erin,

You'd have to define "happy" for me to give you any answer to that...

And then you'd have to define morality.

All I can say is on your way downhill, look out for that tree...
mk

"Even when I was "Catholic", it never really made sense to me and gave me nothing but despair."

Really? despair? My catholic faith gives me the opposite- As a sinner, I find hope, salvation in the church, through the son of God Jesus Christ.

@Jasper: When I was Catholic, I never felt I was good enough and that no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, I was destined to suffer forever because no matter what, I was a horrible person. That is why I felt nothing but despair.

@Erin: That bothers me as well because I have friends who are Jewish, who are Muslim or who are Hindu and they are very satisfied with their lives and happy with their faiths and have morals as well.

Rae and Erin,
Again I say (Edith Stein was Jewish Convert in Auswicsh (sp) so she covers a couple of faiths) says:

"God is truth, and whoever seeks the truth is seeking God, whether they know it or not."
-Edith Stein

Gotta go to a wake...be back later. Peace.
MK

Bethany-

yes. I do consider myself happy. I believe that I have found the religion/lifestyle that fits in with my beliefs, beliefs which were formed by my experiences both good and bad. I've had a crazy life for a 19 year old girl but I honestly consider myself one of the only people I know to actually have my faith in MYSELF- which is more important, to me, than having faith in any god or deity. I am at peace because I know myself, and I know that my beliefs are flexible because who I am is flexible- I have always said, beliefs should be shaped by your experience, your religion should not shape your beliefs.

"@Jasper: When I was Catholic, I never felt I was good enough and that no matter what I did, no matter how hard I tried, I was destined to suffer forever because no matter what, I was a horrible person. That is why I felt nothing but despair."

well Rae, Im not sure who made you feel like that, but you should'nt, the church is not a house of saints, it's a house of sinners. why do you think at every mass we ask Christ for forgiveness.

@Jasper: Tell that to my Faith Formation teachers. They hated me because I had the gall to question what they said and they were never able to answer me and told me to shut-up and just accept things the way they were and that by questioning what they said, I was disobeying God.

Rae, I know you've had a lot of hardships in your past, and this is how you've reacted to protect yourself from further hurt. I'm sorry that your life has been so difficult. I too, had a troubling past. I wanta you to know that I keep you in my prayers, not because I think I am better than you (I'm not), but because I care about you and I hope that God will reveal Himself to you one day, and would love for God to bless you and show you what good can come in your life, as He so graciously did for me. He changed my life. I don't think that I or anyone else here will be able to convince you of anything, because your mind is made up. But God is much higher than I am and He can do what I cannot. I know MK has been praying too. I know that faith can work miracles, and I pray it will make a change for the better in your life and heal the hurt you've experienced in your past. (((hugs)))

Rae -

Your Faith Formation Teachers were all wrong. One of the reasons I like the Catholic faith is because you are encouraged to ask questions. People are encouraged to be like doubting Thomas who didn't believe he was looking at the reserecting Christ until he touched the wounds.

As for Isreal and Palistine. I am glad that you got a specific point of view. But I seriously encourage you to study history on this. The European Jews were given the land now called Isreal because of the autrocities that happened in WWII. The Jews wanted a place of their own so that they would never be persecuted like that again. The Palistineans did not own the land. Sorry, but they didn't. The Ottoman Empire fell after WWI and britain was given control of the land by the League of Nations. Britain could do with that land that they wanted. It is not right what happened to the people living on that land. But it was far worse what would have happened to the Jews if they stayed in Europe with all the hatred that was left over. The Jews were told that they could settle on that land. Even then there was hatred of the Jews by the Palistineans and the Jews were understandably not wanting to live on land where they were hated. There was a Civil War/revolt type war that occured, and now we have the aftermath. This is one of those odd situations where you can see that both sides have reasons to believe they are right. However, Isreal is hated by all the countries around them and anti-semitism runs throughout the world. If they show one sign of weakness, they will be attacked. They made a compromise to give the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank to the Palistinean government. The Isreali army went into those areas and forced (by alot of violence) the Jews to move out. All this did was create a temporary cease fire for a year. Was it worth it? Also, Isreal has complied with the Oslo accords and "the road map to peace" but the Palistineans have not. Isreal offered everything the Palistineans ever wanted, 99%, but would not allow Jerusalem to go to the Palistinean government. Palistine said no. This under the Clinton administration. What more can Isreal do?

Like I said, you do have to go back to the Crusades and maybe before that, around 700 AD to fully understand all of this.

To all -

Please forgive all the typing errors. I'm not good at spelling.

@Rae -

I just wanted to add that it took me a very long time to find God again. I lost faith after graduating High School and didn't re-find it until after my daughter was born last year. I questioned. I searched. I found out the truth for myself. I encourage this from anyone who is having difficulty. I, too, have Muslim, Hindu and non-believer friends. I have never thought, no will I ever think that they are going to Hell. They all live a good life and never hurt anyone intentionally. They live, what some may call, a good Christian life. ;-) I know some disagree with me, but this is my belief.

@Valerie: Oh I do agree with that, the Palestinians are being rather "ass-hat"-like with the lack of cooperation. It would be *fantastic* if they would realize that by being stubborn and not willing to compromise and suicide bombing the crap out if Israel. Though, I think the problem with both sides is the poor leadership on both sides, though I could be wrong.

I mean, I do see why the Palestinians are angry, they were in fact kicked off their land, and I'm glad that you can see that too, but the way they go about showing their anger with bombings and shootings is definitely *not* the right way to go about it and in fact only makes their side look bad. If the Palestinians truly want peace, they should be more willing to compromise and then perhaps in the future, instead of just having the Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza Strips, they would be allowed to settle with the Jews in the rest of Israel.

It's so stupid how the Muslims hate the Jews and the Jews hate the Muslims, there is absolutely no BASIS for the rampant antisemitism. Though I don't think it's the entire populations of the Muslim nations that hate Israel, it's the vocal extremist factions and the extremist governments (like the twits in Iran) that make it seem that way. I've talked to people from the Middle East, just normal everyday people and they say that the general population is indifferent towards the Jews because that is what the Qur'an tells them to do, they are not to fight with the Jews because they are of the same God.

My professor that I told you about also talked about how Judaism and Islam are related in the story of Isaac and Ishmael. He described Isaac as representing Judaism and Ishmael as representing Islam, they are brothers...and they should not be fighting like they are. They are supposed to love each other instead of killing one another.

Valerie, me too. See, were really not all that much different. I lost my faith for a very long time. I always wondered that if God made man in his own image, then why were some men/women so evil? I still struggle with this question a lot!! Can someone help me a bit? I've still never really figured it out. I would appreciate it.

"Oh really, so you know better than the Israelis? what arrogance, stop listening to your muslim boyfriend."

"I can just see Rae's boyfriend now.....trashing America and Israel....and Rae sitting saying "yes, yes, oh your right, oh, america is so bad, christians are bad...do you like me know mr.muslim??"

jasper, you dont find those statements at all bigoted? Thats a bit ridiculous.

"so what? you expect Irael not to defend itself. silly terror supporting liberal."

oh yes jasper, because terrorism is such an amazing thing. everyone should support it
/sarcasm

no, I expect ANY country to try and find alternative routes first before resorting to action that is condemned world wide.

sorry im responding late, I fell asleep, didnt get out of work til 1230, then was up til 2.

that last part meaning last night/this morning, whatever you want to call it

Rae -

My sister's in-laws are from Syria, they say the same thing about the anti-semitism (but then again, they are from the Catholic part of Syria). As horrible as it sounds, its not what the people think, it is what the government thinks. The whole thing is so fascinating how it all came about. My husband is a history junkie and he has me addicted to the history channel and actually reading history books. This is my favorite part of history to study. A good portion of the hatred comes from misunderstanding and misinformation. I have annoyed all my friends with all of this, they could care less. I think that is why I am having too much fun talking about it here! ;-) I think it also helps having my sister's in-laws to talk to too. They have been in the US for several generations, but still have family in Syria.

@Valerie: History is really fascinating I agree...I would take a history class in college but I don't want to write all the papers they make you write...I'm so lazy. :-p I do like watching the History Channel (and I just about cried with joy when they had the documentary about Star Wars...) and I must say there is nothing more satisfying than a well-written, well-researched documentary (though I will admit, I prefer science documentaries, particularly those about various diseases like HIV/AIDS and cancer).

I just wonder though, how the people in those countries allow their governments to behave in that manner? If they disagree with the antisemitism of their governments, why don't they do anything about it? I suppose it's because they aren't democratically elected governments (which is unfortunate, but I don't think we should go in and install democratic governments for them, democracy is best home-grown) and I suppose there is a severe penalty for disagreeing, like I know in Iran you are either jailed or put to death for publicly disagreeing with the government. It's sad to think that at one point, Iran was quickly modernizing and becoming more Democratic and now look where it is. Though on the bright side, there is evidence that Pakistan is becoming "more free" (relative to other Muslim nations) as is Turkey. In fact, Indonesia has the world's highest population of Muslims and the are a democratic nation that has far fewer problems than those in the Middle East (they still have problems yeah, but what democratic nation doesn't?). I read a very interesting article for my political science and religion course that argued that Islam is not necessarily incompatible with democracy, it's the country's intelligence groups and armies that are the ones undermining democracy (as is the case in Pakistan, their army took over).

If I find the article again, I'll post a link to it, I have to check my poli sci syllabus for it. :)

@Valerie: I think these are the two articles that discuss what I was talking about, how Islam is not necessarily anti-democracy and what not.

• Stepan, Alfred. 2000. “Religion, Democracy, and the ‘Twin Tolerations.’” Journal of Democracy 11(4): 37-57.
• Stephen V. Monsma and J. Christopher Soper, The Challenge of Pluralism: Church and State in Five Democracies. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 1997. Ch. 1, pp. 1-14.

Rae -

For some reason those two articles are in computer language on my end... Can you try again?

I enjoy history more now that I am learning on my own than I did in any class. I like being able to pick which ones to study and not have to worry about memorizing all the dates and names. WHAT happen is far more important than WHO and WHEN if you ask me.

well, you need at least a bit of the who and when to understand the why

Dan -

Of course! but I was talking about how the classroom setting seems to want you to memorize the who and what and doesn't seem to care if you know the why. Which is the reason I like to study the stuff on my own! ;-)

Agreed. I love history, though i dont know how well Ill do in college at it, still trying to improve my writing skills.

History?

reminds me of quote:

"History is hard to know, because of all the hired bull#$%@, but even without being sure of "history" it seems entirely reasonable to think that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the time--and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened." Hunter S. Thompson

"jasper, you dont find those statements at all bigoted? Thats a bit ridiculous."

No, can you tell me where they are bigoted?

"no, I expect ANY country to try and find alternative routes first before resorting to action that is condemned world wide."

It's funny how this seems to only apply to U.S and Israel. Day after day after day, car bombs/IED's are blowing up innocent people in Iraq, Iran consistantly warning Israel of their coming destruction.... and all of the "tolerant" and "open minded" people want to do is trash President Bush without ever condeming the actual perpetrators of the violence.

@Valerie: Oops! Sorry. Let me try again...

Stepan, Alfred. 2000. "Religion, Democracy, and the 'Twin Tolerations.'" Journal of Democracy 11(4): 37-57.

Stephen V. Monsma and J. Christopher Soper, The Challanges of Pluralism: Church and State in Five Democracies. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 1997. Ch. 1, pp. 1-14.

Those are the citations for the articles, I think the Alfred Stepan article is the one that is a bit more relevant to the Muslim and Democracy issue, but the second one is interesting as it describes the different types of Church/State Separation. If you would like, I can look for the articles and link them to you...

"It's funny how this seems to only apply to U.S and Israel. Day after day after day, car bombs/IED's are blowing up innocent people in Iraq, Iran consistantly warning Israel of their coming destruction.... and all of the "tolerant" and "open minded" people want to do is trash President Bush without ever condeming the actual perpetrators of the violence."

I do condemn their actions, but sometimes it's best to be the bigger man and not react violently to violent actions put upon you. The reason the terrorists use violence the way they do is because it's effective, it gets a rise out of us and we attack back, which is what they want, they want us to attack back to show how evil we are. We give them precisely what they want when we attack back which is exactly why they keep using the tactics that they do. Are they wrong for using violence and terror? Most definitely. Should we resort to the same tactics in order to get back at them? Of course not.

" I've had a crazy life for a 19 year old girl but I honestly consider myself one of the only people I know to actually have my faith in MYSELF- which is more important, to me, than having faith in any god"

Ok, be your own God. see, it's all about herself, me, me, me.

"I am at peace because I know myself, and I know that my beliefs are flexible because who I am is flexible-"

yippie! anything goes!

...and all of the "pariotic" and "troop supporting" people want to do is trash liberals without ever condeming an adminstration guilty of negligent homicide.

...and all of the "pariotic" and "troop supporting" people want to do is trash liberals without ever condeming an adminstration guilty of negligent homicide of our soldiers.

And yay! Jasper is mocking another person's beliefs! What a tolerant and loving "Christian" he is!

"I do condemn their actions"

Really Rae? because I never hear at all from people on your side.

"but sometimes it's best to be the bigger man and not react violently to violent actions put upon you"

what would you like us to do? that's not being a bigger man, that's being a coward. When were attacked, and innocent people killed, I want my country to attack back, and kill the stinkin, filty, swarmy terrorists. I want them dead.

"Should we resort to the same tactics in order to get back at them? "

the same tactics? are you saying our U.S tropps use the same tactics as terrorist?

and as you can see Rae, I was correct. It didn't take Cam but a few minutes to start trashing President Bush, without saying anything about terrorists.

"what would you like us to do? that's not being a bigger man, that's being a coward. When were attacked, and innocent people killed, I want my country to attack back, and kill the stinkin, filty, swarmy terrorists. I want them dead."

No, it's not cowardly, it's what Gandhi did...it's what Martin Luther King did. It's brave to take hits and not hit back. And to the last sentence, they think the same way about you, so that's not going to get us anywhere.

"Really Rae? because I never hear at all from people on your side."

That's because you aren't listening, or you are too busy plugging your ears saying, "lalalalalala liberals are teh evilz0rz and i hope they die in a fire lalalalalalala!"

"the same tactics? are you saying our U.S tropps use the same tactics as terrorist?"

Nope, terrorist tactics, but violent tactics. Killing leads to more killing, so by attacking back all we are doing is adding to the vicious cycle of violence.

and as you can see Rae, I was correct. It didn't take Jasm but a few minutes to start trashing liberals, without any concern for our troops.

@Jasper: I'm not Cam, so what he does has no bearings on how I act and what I believe. So who cares if he wants to insult Bush and not the terrorists, that's his prerogative, not mine. I think both sides are wrong and are going about settling their differences in a wholly unreasonable manner.

Rae,

what should we have done in WW2 when Hilter was killing the Jews? What should we have done after 9/11 when people were jumping to their deaths from the world trade center? (which by the way, the wimps in the MSM wouldn't show on TV.) Not go into afganistan and break up the terror training camps?

Rae, if it was up to you, we'd all be neeling on prayer rugs.

@Jasper: Those situations were different. Terrorism is a completely different type of violence from what we have experienced before. Of course we were right for going into World War II. He needed to be stopped.

After 9/11, we were right to go into Afghanistan. We were WRONG to go into Iraq.

And no, we would not be "neeling" on prayer rugs, as I wouldn't be Muslim or whatever, considering I'm Diest that doesn't even apply to me and only makes you more like the bigot that you are.

Rae, You misunderstood me. I meant we would be forced into Islam. Not by your order, but by giving in to the terrorist we'd be forced to convert.

"After 9/11, we were right to go into Afghanistan"

wait a minute Rae, you said:

"Killing leads to more killing, so by attacking back all we are doing is adding to the vicious cycle of violence."

It's OK Rae, your still pretty young and it looks as though you get confused pretty easily. Plus, having no faith at all can lead you into all kinds of directions, etc. If I was your Dad, I keep a close I on you, maybe set a curfew, etc.

If it were up to Jasm, we'd all be "neeling" in church, getting orally pleasured by Father O'Reilly.

Cam...LOL,,, good one!

@Jasper: Perhaps you are right, I misspoke. I can see the justification for going into Afghanistan, it is much more justifiable than our war in Iraq.

So allow me to restate (as in ignore my previous statement about going into Afghanistan): We were also not exactly right for going into Afghanistan. I see the justification for it, yes, but we shouldn't have gone in as all we've done is piss off more people and the number of terrorist training camps has in fact, increased. We should have ignored the terrorists, and instead worked on healing our country instead of giving into our thirst for revenge.

And you know what? Shove off. My lack of faith has nothing to do with any of this. I have morals believe it or not. And you know what? If my dad saw the way you spoke to me, he'd punch you right across the room.

And Jasper, I still think you are nothing more than a bigoted jerk. You are quite good at trying my patience, and I honestly have no respect for you. I mean, if I were pro-life, I would be ASHAMED that you were on my side, as some of the things you say are absolutely appalling and quite frankly I have no idea how people can turn a blind eye to the awful things you say.

"And you know what? If my dad saw the way you spoke to me, he'd punch you right across the room."

why, what did I say?

"I have no idea how people can turn a blind eye to the awful things you say"

were are the awful things, I don't know what you're talking about.

"You are quite good at trying my patience, and I honestly have no respect for you"

we'll I have respect for you, your quite bright and excellent artist. ( I just wish your drawings weren't so mean and angry)

Jasper,

Get off you high horse. You're not better than anyone else, and you should leave Rae alone.

Hey, jasper, not my fault that your inordinate lack of self esteem is perpetuated by the Catholic church and that you have been reared to never question anything you say because it makes you a 'bad boy'. I'd rather be my own god than be the pawn of another one.

I highly doubt terrorist cells, bent on destroying themselves for the glory of Allah, would be capable of overthrowing the entire United States government and forcing 300 million people to simultaneously convert to Islam.

I am going to agree with JK on this one. I mean, exactly how could muslims overthrow the most powerfull countryin the world, and then force everyone to worship Allah? That just isnt feasible. Find another argment that is viable please.

Midnite, I didn't do anything to Rae.

Erin:"Hey, jasper, not my fault that your inordinate lack of self esteem is perpetuated by the Catholic church and that you have been reared to never question anything you say because it makes you a 'bad boy'. I'd rather be my own god than be the pawn of another one."

OK, suit yourself Erin. I think I do have self-esteem though. I just happen to believe in what Jesus said, that he is the son of God.

Rebel groups have tried and failed to overthrow countries far less expansive and militarily advanced than us.

And its actually showing a lack of faith in our military to say that we couldn't defend our country ON OUR OWN TURF.

Erin:
"I'd rather be my own god than be the pawn of another one."

I'd rather be a pawn of a chessmaster who shares the triumph. :-)

"It's funny how this seems to only apply to U.S and Israel. Day after day after day, car bombs/IED's are blowing up innocent people in Iraq, Iran consistantly warning Israel of their coming destruction.... and all of the "tolerant" and "open minded" people want to do is trash President Bush without ever condeming the actual perpetrators of the violence."

hey, I said any didnt I? I dont agree with Iran or the insurgents, or any of them either. At least an attmept for compromise should be made by either side. Once one side enters into an attack/conflict. Go right ahead into the conflict, or if negotiations are failing miserably and nothing is going to happen as the country/group keeps up its actions, go into conflict if its warranted. Attacking just because youve been baited is pointless and accomplishes little or nothing

as for not seeing anything bigoted about those statements, many muslims dont trash/hate the US, and even if they did they woulnt be alone. Most of the world looks at us with disdain.

"s for not seeing anything bigoted about those statements, many muslims dont trash/hate the US,"

Dan, I never said many muslims hate/trash the US. I simply quoted a poll recently which said the 25% of US muslim men support terroist attacks.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708663403&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Most of the world looks at us with disdain"

yet Dan, more people immigrate to America than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES COMBINED! geez, it can't be that bad, can it?

as I said above Dan, trashing the US and Pres. Bush is sport now. They get alot help for MSM here and abroad (BBC, etc).

I don't hate America. I'm not a fan of our President (though I do give him props for increasing money for AIDS relief in Africa, that's pretty awesome, and I'm quite happy with his stance on immigration), but you know what? He's only around for another year or so, then we can pick a new court jester to lead our nation.

Rae,

you still mad at me? we still buddies?

@Jasper: I'm not mad at you...just frustrated and annoyed with your poor view of Muslims and liberals in general. It's very disheartening to be try to be "buddies" with somebody who thinks you are on the side of terrorists.

"See, what frustrates me is that people assume that without the knowledge and worhip of a Christian God, I can never be happy."

What frustrates me is that everyone seems to think that there is a multitude of Gods to choose from. Like the scene in Borat...and this is a cheese? except instead of cheese we're asking "and this is a god? and this? and this? and this one a heere? A God also? And this one?..."

Everybody can't be right. Either there is a God or there isn't. But I'd be rather surprised to find out that there is a multitude of Gods. A multitude of expressions? yes. A multitude of understandings? perhaps. A multitude of Gods?...I don't think so.

If we can't even have a civil conversation on any given night here at Jill's, how in the world can expect to solve a fight that has been going on for over 5000 years?

Rae,

I see that you haven't responded to my posts. I hope it's because new stuff came up and not because you're angry with me...

mk

@MK: Oh no, I'm not angry. Other things have come up if you can't tell, and I just haven't really known how *exactly* to respond. But no, I'm not angry. :)

"@Jasper: I'm not mad at you...just frustrated and annoyed with your poor view of Muslims and liberals"

Rae, the company at work at is like the united nations, I have muslim, indian, chinese, liberal friends there etc. ....I don't have a poor view of muslims in general, just the fantical ones. My brother is a liberal, and yes, we have heated debates at Thanksgiving, but that doesn't mean I don't like him....( we'll...sometimes I don't like him)

Rae,

Okay, cuz it would just break my heart if you were.

No need to respond if you can't or don't want to, as long as we're "cool".

I'm going to bed soon. I was at a wake all day and night and have to get up early for the funeral. My leg is the size of a tree trunk! Just didn't want to go to bed "mad" at each other. They say it's not good for the marriage. :)

Good Night all, hope your feeling better MK....

oops, it sounds like your not feeling better...

@Jasper: Well that's because he's your brother...you're not *supposed* to like him. I'm kidding of course. But you see when you say stuff like that, I have a hard time reconciling that with the Jasper who tells me that I agree with terrorists, that a guy I dated is my boyfriend and that I shouldn't listen to what he says and that he probably hates America and loves it when terrorists blow stuff up, and that liberals are all wusses that hate America and want to see it destroyed and calls Johnny Depp a "faggot" because he's liberal and occasionally says idiotic things (though he's entitled to do so, as you know...it's America and we do have freedom of speech...). So yes, while you do have the freedom of speech, I also have the freedom to call you out when what you say is bigoted or uncalled for, as some of your comments have been.

@MK: I'm sorry to hear about your leg. :( And I"m also sorry you had to be at a wake and have to go to a funeral.

In the words of Savage Garden, "I believe the sun should never set upon an argument." Wise words, wise words. :)

Thanks Jasper,

It's not that bad really, but I do need to ice it!

Rae,

Good night. Sleep tight. Most likely kill you in the morning! (The Princess Bride)

Hey Cameron;

I'm going to prophesy over you:

"As I did with Augustine, my special intellectual and possessor of superior intellectual capacity, I will do with you my son, lest you sway against Me. Away with the ordinary, away with the average, away with just good. Good is not best and I have called you to Me, the Excellent One, do not reject Me. Come into the exquisite and high knowledge I now offer you. Become as I created you to be, a staunch Defender of the Faith. Do not answer hastily my son, as my appeals come with a great price. Wait, and I will answer you, wait. Do not be as the Prodigal who suffered much before realizing his true destiny. Look for Me, let not the Evil One any longer blind and bind. Now, now is the time I have been preparing you for. You know this and have been resisting. Kick not against the goads any longer, lest you become as one of them, hard and feeble, knowing nothing, missing your destiny".

@MK: Aaaaaaah! I LOVE "The Princess Bride", it's one of my absolute favorite films! "Life is pain princess..."

Rae,

Have fun stormin' the castle.

Now I'm realllllly goin'.

mk

Now, normally I'd say something like "Dan's BACK!" but there's another Dan here, so the GOOD DAN is back.

Anywho, I gotta say Jasper, you really need to think on this one. "Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." While there may be no rest for the wicked, we get more cookies than you do! Plus, all the Christian faith has ever really taught me is to be intolerant of people's differences and that I shouldn't trust snakes with apples.

I have a pet boa constrictor, and I love anyone of my fellow man who is willing to live their lives to the fullest.

Oh, and in answer to the weekend question...

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rate's gone
Feel free again
O' life's a dream with you, Miss Lily White
Jane Fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals it's okay
So let's get dressed and dance away the night

While they kill kill kill kill lill the poor tonight!

Greetings:This is the Secretary of War at the State Department
of the United States
We have a problem.
The companies want something done about this sluggish
world economic situation
Profits have been running a little thin lately
and we need to stimulate some growth
Now we know
there's an alarmingly high number of young people roaming
around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble
for the police and damage private property.
It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job
It's about time we did something constructive with these people
We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over
The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together-
And start another war
The President?
He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro
Napalm
People running down the road, skin on fire
The Soviets seem up for it:
The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years.
Hell, Afghanistan's no fun
So whadya say?
We don't even have to win this war.
We just want to cut down on some of this excess population
Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can.
We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on,
hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use
an automatic rifle and send 'em on their way
Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland?
Or a "moderately repressive regime" in South America?
We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story
in the Middle East-we need that oil
We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad
didn't even show up. I tell ya
That man is unreliable.
The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one
Now just think for a minute-We can make this war so big-so BIG
The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper
We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queue if we plan this right.
Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls
Now don't worry about demonstrations-just pump up your drug supply.
So many people have hooked themselves on heroin
and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam.
We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong.
Kept the war functioning just fine
It's easy.
We've got our college kids so interested in beer
they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again.
Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard,
they wouldn't even know what it looked like
So how 'bout it? Look-War is money.
The arms manufacturers tell me unless
we get our bomb factories up to full production
the whole economy is going to collapse
The Soviets are in the same boat.
We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?
That's excellent. We knew you'd agree
The companies will be very pleased.

Nobody's awake? WT...

Hey, jasper, not my fault that your inordinate lack of self esteem is perpetuated by the Catholic church and that you have been reared to never question anything you say because it makes you a 'bad boy'. I'd rather be my own god than be the pawn of another one.

Erin, I understand that you do not appreciate Jasper's posts, or his style of debate. However, why do you assume he has never questioned anything in his life? From what I read, he is 39 years old (at least I think that's the age he said), and in that time, I am sure he's had a lot of time to think about things, and to come to the opinions he has now. I believe that it's very likely that he has questioned everything that you have questioned, only the difference is that he found answers that were different than yours.

I understand that you do not like his style of debate, however, don't you think it's a little bit mean to imply that all Christians have low self esteem, simply because one person offends you? Do you really believe that Christianity gives one low self esteem? Do you really think that feeling a deep sense of self worth and purpose is low self-esteem?

We who believe that Christ valued us enough to suffer and die for our sakes, have a deeply felt sense of worth and purpose. How couldn't we? We know that we are valued highly... Is it because Christians are commanded to have humility that you feel Christians have low self-esteem? If so, you are confusing humility with low self-esteem. Humility is a lack of false pride.
Self-esteem describes one's feelings of self-worth.

See what I am saying?

Dan,

appreciate your observations very much .... when faced with insanity (and all seems the same), I search out elusive hope. It does lift the burden so that it doesn't seem as grinding.

It is weird (to me) that one of the most celebrated humans ever (St. Francis of Assisi) rather than mock human futility, embraced it and called it Brother Poverty. More than likely this still works!

Humility is simply realizing who you truly are, a sinner in need of a Savior.

Jasper demonstrates that perfectly.

People who reject Christ demonstrate the worst kind of pride and are at risk of losing all, including their eternal souls.

This is not about religion. This is about a relationship with God Himself made available by Christ's death on the cross. He wishes to see no one perish. He wants all to come to a saving knowledge and acceptance of Jesus Christ. It's a glorius life, full and rich and blessed. Not without trials, but with a future assurance. When Christ is accepted, life has new meaning. We are raised to a level of excellence that we could never imagine.

As the Prodigal Son was humbled by his sinful life of his own choosing and then sought the forgiveness of a loving, heavenly Father, we then inherit the Father's wealth which is Christ Jesus, we become heirs with Christ. We inherit everything that Christ gets on that wonderful day. We are the head and not the tail, we are above and not beneath, we can do anything through Christ who strengthens us, we are more than conquerors, no weapons fromed agasint us will prosper, He has plans for us that are good, the riches stored up for us in Heaven are unimaginable, we have a mansion that Christ has been preparing for us.....not a bad deal and I'll take it.

I urge all that read this to accept His Son, Jesus Christ.

If you do not accept the Father's offer, He says, that's everything I have to give, there is no other way and you are cast from His Holy Presence forever, and this of your own choosing. That is called Hell. Every second will be worse than the last, no way out, no means of escape.

Please choose life.

Smog, you might want to kill me and eat me. Maybe I'm quite tasty.

Who is Doctor Defense, and why is he so hostile?

Kill right-to-lifers and eat them for dinner!
Kill right-to-lifers and eat them for lunch!
Posted by: DoctorDefense at June 4, 2007 01:54 AM

100 fetuses in the womb, 100 fetuses in the womb... suck one out to make some room... 99 fetuses in the womb. 99 fetuses in the womb... 99 fetuses in the womb... suck one out to make some room...98 fetuses in the womb.

I kill me!
Posted by: Cameron at June 1, 2007 01:36 PM

If it were up to Jasm, we'd all be "neeling" in church, getting orally pleasured by Father O'Reilly.
Posted by: Cameron at June 3, 2007 06:03 PM

I'm sorry, someone was saying something about us not calling one of our own onto the carpet?

hmmmmmmmm....does this mean that statements like these are okay with the pro-choice side?

Compared to this, Jasper should be nominated for sainthood!

Midnite,

we posted at the same time...

Who is Doctor Defense, and why is he so hostile?

Good for you!

mk

Well, I know that Cam was kidding about his post, and Rae was just making a point, but this Dr. Defense, why would we eat a human? I am confused on this guy, who is he and why is he like that?

Oh wait, You didnt quote Rae my bad. Havent ingested the normal two cups of coffee yet, brain is nonfunctional @ the moment.

MK, how was your surgery and are you feeling bettr yet?

@Rae -

I know I'm a bit late on this but regarding the violence and not reacting to violence. Using Peace and taking the high road. Well, you do realize that this is what the Clinton administration did right? (not 'blaming' Clinton, it's just what that administration chose to do - no one had a crystal ball) And the terrorist were able to join together and plan 9/11. Taking the high road led to more than 3,000 deaths. Why do we have to wait for them to come to our land when they are attacking us overseas. The USS Cole comes to mind.

As for Iraq. Why should we have not gone in and liberated the people? You do realize that there was more to the 18 resolutions than just WMD right? The majority was for humanitarian reasons. We have found a multitude of mass graves and no idea who they are because they are Sadam's victums. We have found hundreds of video tapes of torture; not the wimpy 'torture' that the US is accused of, but true, painful, bloody torture. We have found that he was taking the money and food that was supposed to go to the people in the 'oil for food' scandal - A scandal that has been proved that members of the UN were either involved in or knew about it. He killed millions of people. His sons were even worse. If they wanted information from a man they would bring in his wife and daughters and have them raped and beaten and force the man to watch. Why should we have let these people stay in that world? You want us to go to Darfur right? Save the people from what is going on right? What is happening in Darfur is essentially a civil war. A lopsided, horrible civil war between a militia group and rebels. Iraq was a repressive regime that killed indiscriminatly The people in both places are/were being horifically mistreated. I see no difference in the atrocities in these places. People are/were being killed, tortured, raped and left destitute. The only real difference is that Darfur has reporters taking pictures and Iraq didn't. Why should one be liberated and the other not. Which brutalities do you support and not support. You seem to want to pick and choose who should be mistreated and who should be saved. I guess you really are Pro-Choice huh? Remember WMD's was just ONE of the MANY reasons why the UN AGREED with us. Also remember that all the voting UN nations, including Germany, Russia, and France believed the reports of WMD's. And if you come back and say that Bush was told there wasn't and bla bla bla - please remember that was just one report amoung hundreds of reports that said otherwise. Also remember that Sadam was in violation of 18 resolutions telling him he had to comply and prove no WMD and prove he was following humanitarian rights. In the last couple UN resolutions it was stated by the UNITED NATIONS that force would be used if he didn't comply. The US was in support and the most vocal in all of this which is why we are being 'attacked' now.

(Rae - that second paragraph isn't directed at you personally, just need to vent I think. I honestly don't remember if you have ever brought up Darfur, but I know it has been brough up.)

@Erin -

"Catholic church and that you have been reared to never question anything you say because it makes you a 'bad boy'. "

Please get your facts straight before you trash an entire religion. You keep wanting me to respect your belief's? Well, Why should I be expected to respect you when you can't respect me.

"And its actually showing a lack of faith in our military to say that we couldn't defend our country ON OUR OWN TURF."

So, you want us to just wait around until they have infiltrated our country and start the suicide bombing here?

Valerie- note that jasper started it, please.

If he attacks my faith, I'll react. Sorry.

Erin -

Then attack Jasper, not all Catholics. It really isn't that difficult to keep insults to just one person and not an entire belief system.

Rae -

oops - I forgot - Thanks for the info on the articles. I'll see if I can locate them, if I can't I'll let you know.

;-)

Bethany- I am sure he has struggled at points in his life. He has NO RESPECT for anyone elses belief systems, though. jasper tends to be the personification of what I think is wrong with the world. And Bethany, it's more of a general opinion I have of Catholicism. I find the whole cycle of confession and stuff very demeaning. I'm swayed by the fact that historically the Catholic church has been kind of insane, too, but catholicism is honestly one of those religions I have a hard time with- because it focuses more on the fact that 'people are sinners!' than any other type of Christianity. If you grow up with that kind of ideology, it will contribute to a lesser feeling of self-worth. That's like growing up to your mom telling you everyday, "I went through labor for a terrible, naughty child like you, but I love you anyways." It's just not conducive to a positive opinion of oneself.

Valerie, HE attacked my entire faith.

midnite, Dr. Defense is a pro choice mental case. He also posts under the screen names SOMG, and B1Bob for prez. He's just a weirdo who idolizes abortionist George Tiller.

"Valerie, HE attacked my entire faith."

Sorry Erin, I didn't know you had any faith except faith in yourself (your words), that you know better than any God.

"I find the whole cycle of confession and stuff very demeaning."

of course, after all, who knows better than you Erin.

I'm swayed by the fact that historically the Catholic church has been kind of insane, too.

-like I said before Erin, if it weren't for the crusades, you'd be wearing a burka and a bed-sheet by force and would be stoned to death if you happened to be raped so it would not bring disgrace to the family.

Hey everyone. I just wanted to let you know that I just heard back from my doctor and I miscarried. Thank you for all of your prayers and support. I love you all.

I don't know God's plan in all of this, but I know that it was His. We glorify Him and praise Him even in this storm.

God bless,

Lauren

I'm sorry Lauren. Your baby is in Heaven now.

God bless you and your family

jasper, your disrespect for everyone's views other than yours is the bane of the pro-life cause- and also why I decided that I couldn't accept Christianity. People like you chase people away from the church, not towards it. Good job.

Erin, I urdge you to not forsake Christ based upon the actions of man. We are all fallen and sinners. Though we strive to show Christ's love, we often fall short.

Seek God, pray that He will be revealed to you. Don't turn away from Him because you do not agree with what people have said or done.

Thank you Jasper.

Lauren- I'm happy with my own beliefs. A Santa-esque martyr in the sky just doesn't do it for me. Neither do extremists in any form.

I'm sorry to hear that you miscarried, I hope all turns out well.

Thank you for your concern, Erin.

May I ask you what exactly about the "santa-esque martyr" turns you off?

Christ specifically, not Christians.

Lauren- I don't like the concept of needing to be forgiven to have eternal life. I make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. I feel bad when I make mistakes. I try to make up for them. What I don't believe is that humanity is inherently 'sinful'- and the idea of hell in general I find absolutely absurd. Plus the entire concept of god is for one, just not empirical enough for me, and two, so scrambled throughout many different religions that I find it impossible to take any of them at face value.

Lauren -

I am so sorry. You have my e-mail if you need to talk.

@Erin -

"Valerie, HE attacked my entire faith."

So in your world two wrongs make a right?

"I find the whole cycle of confession and stuff very demeaning. I'm swayed by the fact that historically the Catholic church has been kind of insane, too, but catholicism is honestly one of those religions I have a hard time with- because it focuses more on the fact that 'people are sinners!' than any other type of Christianity. "

This is all false. You have either been lied to or misled greatly. We do not focus on "the fact that 'people are sinners'" we focus on the community and helping each other. We focus on our ministry work, ex - Habitate for humanity, project rachel, project gabriel, Life Teen, Knights of Columbus etc. We try to live a good life and we try to admit our mistakes and ask for forgiveness. How is this focusing on being a sinner? Do you believe in psychology? Because confession is very close to seeing a psychologist. Trust me, I've experienced both. And exactly why is the Catholic Church "insane" in your opinion? The Catholic Church has made many mistakes, as any organization does. But why is it that people only focus on the Catholics? And if you are going to mention the clergy sex abuse, I would like to remind you that over 70% of these allegations took place in the 60's, 70's and early 80's - Gee, the priest that grew up in the sexual revolution has had the most problems. Many of the priest that have been accused are either dead or missing. Yet many diosese are paying millions with no proof. And reports and independent studies outside of the Church have shown that less than 4% of priest have been 'accused'. This is less than most other organizations that deal with children, especially the NY city school system.

What is "and stuff" ?are you talking about the sacraments? Like Baptism, Marriage, Confirmation? or are you talking about how the Catholic Church keeps true to the belief's and doesn't bend at the will of the people? Or is it the Mass itself? It just drives me nuts when someone demeans the Catholic faith and then says "and stuff". Please define this. I would be more than happy to explain to you the truth of my faith. Were you raised Catholic? Did you have a bad Pastor or Bishop? How is it that you have all these false impressions?

Lauren,

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I was so hoping and expecting to see you sharing good news here today, and sort of celebrating it with you all. Probably because I have never lost anyone or anything close to me and I have no idea what you must be going through. I'm dumbfounded and my heart sank when I read your post, but I hope that you at least have your health and can move on.

My condolences

Cameron

Valerie- it's the historian in me. Protestantism has been around a lot less time than Catholicism. Therefore historically, they've got a longer historic rap sheet. No, I wasn't raised Catholic, I was raised Lutheran.

I'd honestly love to get into this conversation but I have an audition to be at. Hopefully later we can discuss this!

Thank you Cameron. I do celebrate that my child is now healthy, and happy, and strong with God. Those were all the things we prayed for "baby bee's" life. It's so hard to understand why his life on earth was so short. It's hard knowing that God could have healed him, but didn't. We know that that was God's will, and we accept it.

I think the hardest part about faith is knowing that sometimes the answer is "no". I am so thankful that our faith has not wavered in this time of trial. This loss ahs brought us closer to God and we are so thankful for that.

So I celebrate that through pain, we are able to see more clearly the hand of God in our lives. I celebrate that our faith is purified with fire, and that we came out stronger.

I miss our child so much, but I am so thankful for the time that we had together. I learned more in those few weeks without ever seeing him, than I have my entire life.

I pray that you all can celebrate with me. I know that this is not what any of us were praying for, but I know that God's will was done.

For the record, I was raised Catholic and had an experience very similar to what Erin is describing the idea that I was a sinner for simply being born was slammed into my head so many times I didn't know which way was up. I, too, was told to never question, who was I to question God? The idea that I was completely unworthy of everything ever given me was also a big part of what I was taught.

The fact that, before every mass, a confession was said drove me absolutely nuts. The fact that I had to go to confession once a year or not receive communion drove me nuts. We had a priest who once talked about how the church needed to consider what they were saying to the people with ideas such as celibacy of the priesthood, and he was promptly removed.

Like Erin, I am for all intents and purposes a pagan. Also like Erin, I am quite happy in my belief system. The majority of Catholics I talk to have had experiences similar, if not identical, to mine: most have had more ongoing ones, as I was never confirmed.

Lauren, I'm so sorry. I can't imagine what you're going through. You seem to be dealing with it well, though, which is good. I'm glad you've found a way to cope. I wish things had turned out differently for you, but everything happens for a reason, eh? I'll keep you and your family in my thoughts, and I wish you much happiness and healing to come.

Less -

I am a cradle Catholic. Did you go to Catholic school? Maybe thats the difference? I have no idea what you guys are talking about! Never question God? Well no you don't do that. But you do question everything surrounding Him. You question the prophets to make sure your belief is strong and valid. You question anything that is not making sense. This is how I was raised. 12 years of Catholic Schools and 12 years of driving the priests and nuns insane with my never ending questions. I was the one that made religion class go off topic all the time because I always questioned and was encouraged to do so. I'm at a loss to what you and others have experienced.

What do you mean - before every Mass a confession was made? I have no clue what you are talking about.

Erin -

I can't help it. You know I have to do it. If Catholics have a longer historic rap sheet and has survived that rap sheet doesn't that say something about the security and traditions? ;-)

I am so sorry that you all have had these bad experiences with the Church. I know that as an adult I am understanding WAY more than what I did as a child. I know that sometimes things were explained in a way that I didn't understand at the time but now I do.

I am not saying the you, Less and Erin, have to find all your errors and come (back) to the Church. I dont' believe that one faith is better than the other (a way I was raised by the way), but I do want to rectify some of the errors in what you have been taught, because they aren't right.

Less - I was just reading somewhere that around where I live the majority of the Wiccan's (if that is the right word?) here were raised Catholic. I found that interesting for some reason.....

Thank you everyone. I know not all of you pray, but it would mean alot to me if you would do so if you feel led. I don't want to presure anyone, but I just felt led to tell you.

Lauren, I am so sorry. :( I know you're hurting deeply, but I am thankful that through it all, you are able to see God's grace in the situation... I will continue to keep you in my prayers.

Erin:
"I'm happy with my own beliefs"

Most people are. Which means that many happy people with viewpoints at variance are out of touch with whatever happens to be true.

Notice, no advocacy for any particular point of view just there -- just reassurance that you have little but odds to play if being in touch with what's true is at all a concern for you.

Lauren, I am so sorry about the loss of your baby. I can only imagine how hard this is for you and your husband. I am very thankful that you have such an amazingly strong faith that you can rest on, and I will be praying for you and yours! God bless.

Lauren Im so sorry to hear your news. My prayers are with you and your family.

Lauren, I've just read your news. I am so very sorry. May the Lord be with you, and help you through this difficult time in your life. God bless you and your family.

Thank you all. I'm honestly just barely staying afloat right now. Knowledge of God is the only thing keeping me going.

I'm not an especially strong person, andI know that it is only by the grace of God that I'm not falling apart.

Lauren,

I also would like to express my sincerest sympathy to you at this time.
Its appalling that your doctor would take his time telling you and keep you waiting like he did. This has only added to your trauma.
I join everyone else on this thread in wishing you the best. You know you are in all of our thoughts. Through a very trying and difficult time, you have shown yourself to be a much stronger person than you give yourself credit for.

Lauren,

I'm sure that the first person "baby bee" met was a little girl named Blessing. And their first conversation concerned the fact that their mothers are both soldiers in the same army.

Can't you just see them? Talk about God's hand working!

While I am so sorry for your loss, as I know that you had walked a long road to get your precious little one, I also celebrate because your wee one will never know pain, or lonliness, or ugliness. And because he is so close to God now that he and Blessing can whisper in Jesus' ear all day long, pleading with Him to change the hearts of the people here on earth.

2 soldiers on earth, Bethany and Lauren, and a son and a daughter off to war in heaven. Our team just scored.

And of course I'll be praying for you..

MK

Lauren,

I'm so sorry for your loss; I will say a prayer for you

I can see them MK! It is such a comfort knowing that our children are with God. It hurts so much not being able to hold them, but I know they are in a better place. I know it seems cliche, but I know that it is the truth.

Have any of you read the book Angel in The Waters? You can read it online at http://www.angelinthewaters.com/ It is a wonderful story that brought me peace with my first miscarriage.

Lauren, I just read your news and was waiting, hoping for better but praying for God's will. So hard to understand it at hard times but knowing that only God can get you through. I've experienced a miscarriage and felt a lot of the feelings your probably feeling but that doesn't help you. Here to talk. Praying for you. God will take care of you.

@Lauren: I'm truly sorry to hear about your baby, I can't imagine how you must feel, but I am glad you are finding comfort in your faith. I'm sure your baby is safe and happy now.

@Valerie: Hmmmm. Not *really* sure how to respond to all of that stuff. You do make a point, though, and there really is no good way for dealing with this sort of thing is there? Not reacting doesn't appear to work (as you have pointed out, thank you for doing so :D) and fighting back doesn't seem to work either. It's so frustrating!!! Why can't people just get the-flip-along!?

I dunno, I've always thought that by taking the high road and not fighting back when somebody attacks you makes you look like the better person and makes the aggressor look poorly so the aggressor loses support. While this may have worked in the Civil Rights movement and in India, you have made it clear that perhaps that is *not* the best way to deal with this. It's also obvious we have not found the correct way to deal with all of these problems, otherwise I doubt we would have so much conflict. :)

I mean really, people on both sides of these conflicts really need to pull their heads out of their bums and realize that they are fighting for nothing and causing nothing but pain and misery. It makes me really depressed.

I will say one thing, I REALLY wish the media and newspapers were better at reporting these conflicts, being more neutral and even-handed. As much as I hate conservative-spins on things, I also can't stand liberal-spins, I want to get objective, unbiased information about things, so I can understand the conflicts better! Ah there I go, being naive and Utopian again. :)

"Why should one be liberated and the other not. Which brutalities do you support and not support. You seem to want to pick and choose who should be mistreated and who should be saved. I guess you really are Pro-Choice huh?"

I will say one last thing though...that's a tad harsh...I'm sorry that you have perceived that in my messages, I don't mean to sound like that. I guess it would be better if I just kept my mouth shut on foreign policy problems and study them more and gain a more well-informed opinion before I start spoutin' stuff off, eh?

Rae,

I must agree with Mary. The KKK would never (unless pigs could fly or hell froze over) invite an African American to one of their rallies.

You'll notice I didn't get into that whole debate...for the reasons you just stated. It's really hard to know what is right and wrong in a situation like that. And since the fight has been going on for thousands of years, it's hard to know if it's got anything to do with the original fight anymore at all...

But like I said...we can't even agree on Jill's site, so how can we expect them to suddenly be on the same page.

What I don't understand is why they want that little tiny piece of horrible land to begin with...

I mean fighting over Hawaii? This I get. But fighting over a place where the most you can hope to grow is olives and you don't know where your next glass of water is coming from...I don't get it!

@MK: I would gladly fight for olives as they are delicious. :) Especially on tacos and pizza.

Rae,

Yes, but what would you drink with them?

@MK: Olive juice of course. :-p

rae,

ahhhhh....

good one!

@MK: Thank you.

Actually, Palestine/Israel is often referred to as the "Land of Sad Oranges" by Palestinian writers because they used to have vast orange groves there. And Lebanon, a nearby country isn't a desert, it's actually tropical because it is on the Mediterranean Sea.

lol @ MK and Rae :D

Rae,

Don't you find it odd that a land known for it fighting and death, violence and mayhem, got named after dried up oranges?

Not "Land of the sad people"...but oranges?

What I really want to know, is do they have lemmings?

You know, like lemming groves?

Lemming tree, very pretty.
And the Lemming flower is sweet.
But the fruit of the poor Lemming,
is impossible to eat...

@MK:

*snicker*

When I was a freshman in high school, a friend of mine and I decided to write a song about lemmings because we thought it would be funny. It was a terrible song, but we still love occasionally singing it.

I have no idea if there are lemmings in Israel.

And I think it's sad that Palestinians refer to their homeland as the Land of Sad Oranges...their modern poetry and literature is very depressing as well. :(

It sounds funny using the word "modern" with the word "Palestine" doesn't it. I realize that's a prejudiced view, but it's hard to picture them driving Ferarri's and watching Monk.

So what are the words to this Lemming song?

@MK: Mmmmm...Monk is funny. :D

I don't remember them! It's been so long since I've had to sing it, but the chorus repeats, "I AM A LEMMIIIIING!" in a yodelling-type voice. It's about a lemming who decides he/she doesn't want to kill him/herself and is trying to fight against the rest of the suicidal lemmings. Prozac Lemmings! :)

My husband had a friend in elementary (who was later salutatorian and is now a law student)who was muslim and wore a "Palistine" t-shirt to school.

My husband's grandfather is Jewish (though Messianic) and my husband was raised as sort of charismatic/ Messianic Jewish.

Anyways, he and Hammad used to debate the philosophical tennants of the Israeli/Palesinian conflict. They were fairly unusal 10 year olds. Somehow though, they managed to get along.

@Lauren: That is really fascinating! That could have lead to some really interesting insights I imagine!

Rae,

Too funny! Was he a non-believer or believer? You know, a strong faith can do worlds of good for suicidal lemmings. Or so I'm told. If not, just throw them some olives.

Lauren,

Perhaps they could teach the rest of the nation how to get along....

Sometimes it's amazing the insight children have on things.

On a more depressing note, I have a good friend who was in Iraq last year. He's fairly dark skinned with dark hair. He said a little boy came up to him and asked him if he was Jewish. My friend replied that no, he was catholic. The little boy then said "Good, I hate those f-in Jews".

@Lauren: It's sad that adults teach their kids such awful things. :(

@MK: I am not sure, I think it was an agnostic lemming who finally went to a good shrink and was given anti-depressants. And I am guessing he loved olives. :)

Rae,

Fluoridated olives, no less.

Well, perhaps if I put your lemming on the prayer list he will have a change of heart.

Is this lemming pro-life or pro-choice?
Please don't tell me he was gay!
or worse yet, a fanatical, killing Muslim lemming?
Oh no, that's right he was agnostic. Thank God. er, I mean thank...something!

@MK: Tee-hee, gotta love them fluoridated olives. :)

The lemming is pro-life as he doesn't want to die in the mass lemming suicide (I was writing the lyrics on a blackboard once in 9th grade and my teacher made me erase them because one lyric was "I am pro-life" as in..."I am pro-not-killing-myself", not in the abortion sense, but he thought people might get pissy...)

But no, I don't believe the lemming was gay...bicurious at times, but not quite gay. :-p

Thank the Lemming God? :)

@MK and Rae -

You have no idea how much I needed that laugh!!! Thanks!!

I'm so glad there is a Lemming out there who questions authority! That is the only way to be!

@Rae -

Never, Never, ever stop 'spouting' things off. How are you going to learn anything if you don't voice an opinion? That is how we all learn, right? If you look I did put a disclaimer on that paragraph about Darfur and picking and choosing. I just needed to vent I think. It just drives me nuts when people (as in celebrity types) pick and choose who should live and who should die. Who should be tortured and who should be rescued.

All of the middle east history is very confusing and sometimes it is hard to remember all the BS that has gone on. I will say that when it comes to terrorists you cannot take the high road. Remember the bully is gradeschool? If you just ignored him/her nothing would change, you would be bullied and it may get worse. If you tried to reason with him/her the situation would esculate to higher harassment. But when you stood up to the bully and threw a punch and took a punch, things changed. The bully didn't pick on you anymore because it usually turns out that the bully has been misled in how to treat people and really has no power outside of threats and instilling fear in people. This is how I view the terrorists. They are the playground bully who everyone tries to avoid until things get really bad. The bully is the minority, but gets the most attention.

With the media and getting a balanced story, this is what I do. I watch Fox News (I like the talking heads better on Fox because they have a sense of humor in my opinion) and I read the CNN website. If you take what you know from both stories and then put all the information in the middle, that is usually the closest to the truth. The really interesting thing I have learned from doing this is the stories that CNN doesn't do and the stories that Fox doesn't do. It is strange how the media picks and chooses what to report.

Well, back to the radical Lemming who has turned his back on society and has become the 'Lone Lemming'.

@Valerie: You make a good point with the terrorist/bully comparison. I agree that the terrorists need to be stood up to, however I think the ones that should be doing the standing up is the moderate Muslims, or the general Muslim population. They should be the ones saying enough is enough and that they are sick of those radical-crazies bastardizing their religion. They should be the ones telling their governments to shove off and stop funding terrorist cells and to cut the antisemitic bullcrap. The general population needs to tell their governments instead of being corrupt and only being concerned with destroying the West and Israel, they should work on building their own nation's infrastructure and helping their own people.

And if these nations do not wish to be a part of globalization (ie having McDonalds, Coca-Cola etc) then I think that is a small price we'll have to pay for the sake of peace. If these countries close themselves off from the world in order to work on their own problems instead of meddling in world affairs and declaring Jihad against the world and instead work on their own personal Jihads against their own sins then I say we should make that sacrifice.

If that means we get less oil, then fine, so be it, we ought to be looking for new sources of power anyway.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense... :)

Back to the Lemmings and Fluoridated olives! On pizza! Yummy.

Oy, Valerie, have you listened to "Pretty Balanced" yet?

Rae,

No can do...I tried ordering a fluoridated olive/Lemming pizza last night and was told that lemmings are out of season. If they used the "Lone Lemming" and his sidekick tonto, there'd be no Lemmings left to reproduce and as all the other lemmings had gone off the "deep end" I was S.O.L. (that's s*** out of Lemmings)...

MK -

You didn't order from the right pizza place. You need to call Lemmings R Pizza.

Rae-

BINGO! I agree with everything you said. It is so sad that it will never happen though. This is what hatred can do to people.

I haven't listened to them yet. My son is always around now that school is out and I keep forgetting to listen to them at night. I have it wrote down so I won't forget....

I'm going to make a pizza today. You guys made me hungry.

Tee hee...maybe I'll make a logo or an advertisement about Lemming pizza with new fluoridated olives and of course, our Lone Lemming and his faithful steed Tonto would be on the logo/advertisement championing for Pizza-goodness! :)

@MK: Lol at the "SOL"...tee-hee. Clever-clever. :)

Mmmm...I'm getting a haircut tomorrow and I'm debating as to cut my bangs or not to cut my bangs...

Rae,

Don't do it! When you're under 30 they make you look like a kid, and when you're over forty they make you look ridiculous...

Of course if you have an older looking face then it wouldn't matter...

hmmmm....now I'm not so sure. Is your face round or long?

On the other hand, summer is a good time not to have bangs because you get a freer more gypsy like feeling, and winter you have to do stuff to your hair anyway so it looks more coiffed with bangs...

Of course, growing them out is always a bummer...

hope I helped...:)

@MK: That is true, but the grown out bangs tend to hang in my face a lot (even though they are long enough to tuck behind my ears), they just don't stay there! But perhaps I will keep them...I am gonna try to get a haircut where the hair on the back of my head is shorter than the front and it angle downward...I've been growing my hair for two years so that it would be long enough to do it!

*happybounce*

Rae, I am so sick of my hair[[very thick] I have been thinking about shaving my head. LOL!!

@Heather4life: I have very thick hair as well...I pretty much shaved it off the summer before 9th grade because I had bleached it in 8th grade and it had grown out and my natural color is a LOT darker than the bleach so it was starting to look bad...plus I wanted to look like Kelly Osbourne (Ozzy's daughter). I thought it was cute, but I got a lot of mean comments about it...so I grew it out again only to try cutting it all off in my junior year again because I wanted to get rid of my perm, though it turned out, my hair was just naturally miserably kinky-curly.

My hair does nothing but frustrate me...though I am trying to *not* ever cut it uber short again.

If you get the right cut, uber short isn't too bad. Mine's less than an inch in most places, because mine is hardcore thick and wavy and frizzy and icky. Plus it grows faster than anything: I cut it to less than an inch right before I left school, and it's a bit more than an inch now. I'm getting it cut again tomorrow.

But yup. I'd go get some haircut magazines and look at the pictures. That's what I always do, and it's my favorite part of getting my hair clipped!

And everyone always tells me how friggin lucky I am to have thick hair. I'm like HUH? I would never shave it though. That was just a joke. Actually, it styles and holds quite nice. The trouble is, it costs a small fortune @ the stylist!

Rae,

Don't let this scare you off, but you just described my haircut to a tee! I part it on the side tho, and iron the heck out of it cuz I too have thick hair with just enough wave to make it a pain in the lemming. But it can look casual or smart (nice word huh?) or perky or what ever I want. It cannot, however, EVER look like Stevie Nicks.

Here is my hair right now, before I get my haircut tomorrow. :)

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/56936954/

Rae, you are very pretty! You probably look good with bangs as well as without them.

yes Rae, your pretty, geez, I'm old enough to be your father....

Rae -

You have gorgeous eyes. Are they green?

As for the hair: I had the same problems with my hair and falling in my face when I had my hair the same length all over. My hair isn't very thick but it is heavy, if that makes sense. My hair stylest put layers all over my hair including my bangs (still long, but took the weight out). That was about 4 years ago and I still love it. I can pull it back in a pony tail when I am very busy and I can style it down and it stays out of my face without any bangs!

Did any of that make sense?

@Valerie: No, my eyes are a grey-ish blue, it's just the lighting and the fact I used a camera phone. I wish I had green eyes though...

But yeah, I know that problem because that's the way my hair is but I've been growing it to one length in order to get this style where my hair is shorter in the back than in the front and it kind of slopes downward. However, I'm thinking that's not going to work as well as I'm going to want it to, so I think I'll just have to take a SWAG when I get there tomorrow and either look at hair-mags or ask my stylist. :)

Rae, you are really pretty. :D Will you be posting a picture of the haircut?

OK, since everyone's showing what they look like, I'll dive in too:

http://snipr.com/1n7cy

I bear an amazing resemblance to Ringo (foreground) -- at least, in that odd image of his character. Most pictures of Ringo wouldn't look anything like me.

I've otherwise been compared with this other famous character:

http://snipr.com/1n7cz

The one on the right, I mean. ;-)

LOL

Well, Shaggy was hot! LOL

Rae,

You have beautiful eyes! They're elfin...do you have fairy blood?

I thing the one length/slope to the front look would be awesome. Let it point to your chin...

You're really cute. It's nice to have a face.
Good Luck tomorrow. Please post a new pic!

Rasqual,

You're quite handsome yourself. You remind me of someone but I can't quite put my finger on who...

Oh wow, while we're talking about hair...

I *hate* my hair. It very well could be Stevie Nick's hair, but it is so so so thick. I cut it an razor cut it myself, but I am so sick of it. I'd be so happy if about half of it just fell out one day.

If I blow it dry, it looks like I'm wearing a very long, weird helmat. If I leave it natural it becomes a horrible tangled not all that curly fro.

And don't go by the pictures on my site. Those are 2 years old and many dye jobs ago. Blah, maybe I'll pull a Brittany Spears and shave it all.

I have hair like Zombo if I allow it to air dry. LOL

@MK: It would be pretty sweet if I did have fairy blood. I wanna fly and have pritty wings! :)

I bought a shirt that is of the "Green Fairy" or the alcohol "absinthe" with it's mascot on it...it's really pretty and has paisley designs all over it. :)

Anyway, no haircut today...my stylist called in sick so I had to postpone the appointment for Friday afternoon. Ah well, I had a lot to do in the lab today (PCR and plasmid digests that took for-freakin-ever) so I was there nearly 9 hours...oy.