Adult stem cell therapies are the gift from
God!

Grinding up tiny, human beings for selfish gain
is Satanic and dangerous to the patient.

Try reading that Bible, Nancy!

Woe to those who call evil "good"...

Lesforlife, couldn't agree with you more.

There is no promise in Embryonic Stem cell research. Where is this "power to cure" that Nancy speaks of? I guess she hasn't informed herself of the true potential of Adult Stem Cells.

And where in the Bible does it condone killing and experimenting on other people in order to bring about cures to others?

I don't know what God she believes in,or what Bible she reads, but it sure isn't my God, and it sure isn't my Bible.

Some of these politicians are just as wacko as the Hollywood actors and actresses. John Kerry tried to use that unborn fetus,body autonomy mumbo jumbo. He refused to acknowledge that the fetus was human, and he wanted others to do the same. Save it! They are all living in their own little worlds. Hillary.... what a joke. She could care less about mutilation of babies. The list goes on and on.

Heather--John Kerry is just a bad politician. No one really knows what he thinks because he (quite shamelessly, might I add) just says what the polls tell him to say.

So ... I guess he's a good politician in that case. *rolls eyes*

NOT someone I would want running the country ...

There IS more potential in embryonic stem cells because they are pluripotent whereas adult stem cells are not.

Need I go into the point (again) how the embryos are coming from IVF facilities where they will only be thrown away otherwise? Similarly, organ donation is a way to gain helpful "cures" from dead or soon-to-be dead people--many of whom have decided before to donate their organs (similar to those who elect to donate their leftover embryos to science).

I agree that it can be a slippery slope but as long as IVF is legal, we should be able to use the embryos otherwise thrown away to help mankind, as long as we aren't creating them expressly to kill them or using them to actually developing human clones. I don't see how using the embryos for experimentation and eventual cures is any worse than simply letting them rot away.

Also the way Pelosi worded that was a bit weird. She should leave "God's will" out of it for the time being and focus on practicality and ethical issues. Granted, our mind capacity for bringing life-saving medicinal cures is a gift from God, calling the methods of doing so a direct gift only adds complication to the issue.

Pluripotency in Adult Stem Cells

Excuse me? Jill has done nothing? I'd say that holding a dying aborted baby is a far cry from nothing! Jess, you have nerve. I don't think I would ever stop crying if I were to experience something like that. I wonder if his mother ever thinks about him. I've never even laid eyes on him, and I can't.

oops, meant can't stop.[above post]

UGH, I wrote on the wrong post. That was in response to Jess!!

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics5.asp

1. Mouse testis does not equal human testes. Must have more research for this discovery in order to be applicable to humans. However this should be very exciting because I would love to see adult stem cells have the same usefulness. http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/press_releases/06-03-24_testicularstemccells.htm

2. This study still has a lot of information left unknown. Again, future promise but not ultimate success yet.
"The present results are consistent with the interpretation that PUC cells represent a stem cell population that expresses the central regulators required for mouse embryonic stem cells. Transplantation studies will be required to define the potential of PUC cells when placed in various in vivo environments, but the characteristics identified here suggest that PUC cells will have a wide potential.
We conclude that PUC matrix cells contain unique and primitive cells whose potential is as yet undefined. Ease of collection and propagation, and abundant numbers make PUC matrix cells an attractive candidate as a resource for stem cell biotechnology and biomedical research."
http://www.rbej.com/content/4/1/8

3. What about the other pluripotency genes? And how does neurological repair demonstrate pluripotency rather than multipotency? I couldn't find a lot of resources about this study, either, so if you have any more information please let me know.

4."Based on the expression of Oct-4, SSEA-3, TRA 1-60, or TRA 1-81, AE cell�derived spheroids may contain 10% stem cell marker�positive cells. These observations suggest that in terms of stem cell characteristics and differentiation potential, AE-derived spheroids may be somewhere between pluripotent ESC clusters and multipotent neural stem/progenitor cell spheres."
Again great promise but there may still be more potential in embryonic stem cells.
http://stemcells.alphamedpress.org/cgi/content/full/23/10/1549

5. I can't find the full text of this article. Still, CBEs have much more potential but are still not as potentially versatile:
"The newly discovered human cells, named �cord-blood-derived embryonic-like stem cells� or CBEs, are not quite as primitive as embryonic stem cells, which can give rise to any tissue type of the body. But they appear to be much more versatile than �adult stem cells� such as those found in bone marrow which repair damaged tissue during life."
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7864

Anyways its hard to find time to finish this though I can over time if you'd like.

I'm not saying these other methods are useless or don't have potential. But embryonic stem cells may help bridge the gaps to gain new cures. As long as these embryos are not created expressly for the research, but rather are donated after a procedure such as IVF where the embryos will die, there are ethical reasons to use them for the benefit of mankind. I don't see why we can't continue research in all aspects of stem cell lineages. That's my opinion, anyway.

*applauds*

Well said Pip. I whole-heartedly agree. :D

"embryonic stem cells may help bridge the gaps to gain new cures"

It's the way in which advocates of such research paint detractors as screeching morons in the face of this mere "may" that irritates me no end.

As for Pelosi's witless invocation of civil anti-religion, it's a hole she's welcome to continue digging as far as I'm concerned.

I really don't know a lot about embyonic stem cell stuff to make a constructive comment. I would research a bit, but my thighs hurt from my Mac (boo!!! hate Macs!!!) sitting on them for hours. So I shall instead retire to my desk and continue stealing back my photos of France from the photo album site that stole them.

That should be a debate: are we for or against Leah getting her pictures back? Me, I'm for. Anyone? Anyone?

I'm hungry ... MK, got any lemming pizza? Sounds pretty good right about now.

Seriously, though. Thighs. Ouch. Goodbye.

Hi PiP, Rae and gang ..........

while there may indeed be greater pluripotency to embryonic cells, research tends to lay a lot (too much IMO) emphasis on the 'potential' and much too little on the fact these are cells ........... if these have not got the correct nutrient input (including timing and types of energy) ........ they die. Right now, to talk about nutrition and lifestyle as basic biology is ludicrous .... especially when the big bucks are in developing artificial pharmaceuticals.

Its a waste of thought .... much like Lysalie's idea of an 'artificial womb'. It just won't happen! [No bucks in it.]

Two recent advances in stem-cell research (the adult mouse stem cells gone embryonic, and the aging as a result of stem cell exhuastion) have got Wall St. in a tizzy, and Biotechs scrambling for applications. Bottom line is now that the a "profitable" therapy is on the horizon, our plutocracy is likely to dive into embryonic stem cell research like never before, and while maybe not this time around, with obstinant puppet president with veto stamp in hand, we may not get it passed, no doubt numerous lil' special interest PACs and big business will cozy up with the right-wing nut jobs and git er' done.

Sorry.

PIP, I'm sorry I don't have more time today... I'd really like to respond to your points one by one, but I will wait till later. What is your opinion of number 10, the abstract of which you can find here:

Pluripotency of adult stem cells derived from human and rat pancreas

And one more question....what do you think would happen if these scientists actually were to find what they're looking for, using emrbyonic stem cells, do you think it would really stop at the "spare embryo's"? Or do you think that this would give abortion advocates justification to ask for further rights to harvest and slaughter embryos soley for the purposes of medicine?

Why destroy life when it's not even necessary?

almost forgot the question...

Man is doing embryonic stem cell research, not God. God cannot and will not improve the human condition. Only science can do that.

Regarding Pelosi's comment, what does she mean by Biblical? It's a nonsensical way of trying to say that God approves of Embryonic Stem Cell Research. Her own church teaches quite differently.

Regarding the argument that we might as well experiment on the excess embryos from IVF, I ask those who think that this question: Why don't we start experimenting on people on Death Row? They're just going to die anyway?

Either you respect human life for what it is, intrinsic in its worth and value, or all life is relative. There are no cures worth killing a class of human beings for. Do you really feel comfortable with coming up with something that makes you live a little longer if thousands died to make that cure possible? Embyos are living humans - if they weren't living their cells wouldn't be so valuable, and they have a unique DNA and even a gender. Respect them. You were once an embryo yourself

EWW. This has been the week from hell. On top of everything else that's been going on, our pipes just went bizzerk and now "brown sewage" is flooding all the bathtubs/showers in the house.

Our house is still under warrenty (horray DR Hortan) but it will probably take them at least 3 days to get out here. What am I supposed to do when my house is literally filling with "brown sewage"?

Regarding the argument that we might as well experiment on the excess embryos from IVF, I ask those who think that this question: Why don't we start experimenting on people on Death Row? They're just going to die anyway?

Lynn, great question!

@Lauren: I'd go to a hotel...because they are fun. :D And my curry turned out! It was soooooo delicious.

Lauren that sounds awful...sorry to hear it. :( I wish I had some helpful advice. Rae, I'm glad your curry turned out great! I had some of that just the other day. I love it.

No. But of course it is for pro-aborts.

When the likes of Marty Mcfly and Superman have long been ethically cured by adult stem-cell treatments, Nancy Pelosi and dems will still be crying for the freedom to destroy pre-born life so long as post-born humans prove to be mortal. And with the threat of global warming, surely we would not want to be wasteful, even if embryo destruction provided a mere cure to hiccups.

Nice prose Andrew. Meaningless, but well done.

Lauren,

How I can empathize!! That exact thing happened to us Christmas weekend 2005, exactly one week after my department Christmas party at my house. I was just thankful it wasn't the nite of the party.
Naturally no one could be found on a holiday weekend, and the one person who did cover the holiday weekends stopped that year. My husband seemed to find no problem "going" in the woods, I told him I wouldn't "go" in the woods like a damned bear but rather go to the gas station like a civilized human being. The gas station employees found the whole thing amusing, though they were very sympatheic. My daughter went to her brother's apt. to shower.
Anyway, the septic man arrived first thing Monday morning. I never realized what a vison of beauty he could be. It was only a temporary reprieve though. Turned out we had to spend a nice pile of change, and get our yard torn up and relandscaped, to replace the entire septic system, which was shot.

Mary AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Ok I'm done shaking. Oh how I pray that we don't have to go *that* far.

Rae I'm glad your curry turned out well. :)

Bethany, don't worry you've been a ton of help these past few days!

OH NO! The city just came out and fished around in the front yard and discovered that it *is* a private plumbers responsiblity. Blech. Looks like I'll be waiting for warranty to come out. :(

Lauren, I hope you are doing okay.

Lauren,

Can't you get a temporary reprieve at least with a septic tank cleaner?

Well, the guy from the city opened up our outside pipes and now everything will go out there an not in the house. Of course, I don't want to flood our sidewalk with...well you know.

We're trying to decide if we want to stay here tonight or get a hotel.

I vote for the hotel.

Did you build your home or buy it used? Did you just move in?

We built our home. Well *we* didn't build it, but we were the first people to live here. We've been here about 8 months. It has a one year warranty(lol!) that *should* cover this.

Yeah, but there's also the potential to make skin cells behave like embryonic stem cells:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200706/CUL20070607d.html

The reason that this is promoted to make abortion look good or virtuous.

"The reason that this is promoted to make abortion look good or virtuous."

Huh? Are we using aborted fetuses for stem-cell research now?

All the adult stem cell work, all the cures so far, depend historically on embryonic stem cell work. That is, without previous embryonic stem cell work, we would not know how to isolate and grow adult stem cells.

It's silly for right-to-lifers to tout adult stem cell work as an "alternative" to embryonic stem cell work. We need to be able to compare adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells, to understand the similarities and differences between the two. Obviously this depends on doing research on both.

That is, if right-to-lifers had had their way previously about embryonic stem cells, we would have no adult stem cells.

Bob Dornan (former congressman): "Nancy, how can you, Catholic Mom with 5 children, be so aggressive for abortion? We have the same number of sons and daughters. Nancy, you are going against Catholic teaching and our pope's plea to stand up for life. I don't know of a single bishop in America, not even the most liberal ones, who is pro-choice to kill little human fetuses. They all say it's murder.

Nancy Pelosi Laughed: "Oh, come on Bob, what would you do if one of your daughters was raped by a black man?"

jasper, She SAID that? OMG!

I have heard shock jock Howard Stern say things like this. I guess we'll have to start calling her Nancy Sanger Allred.

Nobody believes Dornan... well except Rush.

Jasper,

Are you absolutely certain of this? What is the source? This is almost unbelievable.

Mary,

Here

Click on Nancy Pelosi's faith in the culture of death

http://www.clmagazine.org/backissues/2007_marchapril.html

I found a video too. WOW!

There's a transcript of what Dornan said at Media Matters too.

Nancy Sanger-Allred it is.

Where is the video?

Im with Kate and Rae.

SamanthaT!

How are you darlin'?

SamathaT, I wasn't talking about if abortion is the only issue. let's say the election were tomorrow, who would you vote for, Clinton or Romney... thanks

Bob Dornan for President!

@Jasper: I'll bite. If that was the case, I'd do a write in because I couldn't make myself vote for either candidate.

I think she meant that Dornan would be the racist-as in not wanting a black grandkid no matter how pro life he was.

@Rae, I already know who you'll vote for, it's ok.

you're pro-abortion. Thanks anyways...

@Jasper: No need to be condescending. I actually have no intention of voting for Hilary Clinton. Nor do I have any intention of voting for Mitt Romney...ever.

Dr. Nathanson was the director of the Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health in New York City. In his two years in that position, he oversaw some 60,000 abortions. In addition, he performed some 5000 abortions with his own hands in private practice, and supervised residents in training who performed another 10,000 abortions.

In The Hand of God, Dr. Nathanson writes, "I have aborted the unborn children of my friends, colleagues, casual acquaintances, even teachers" (p.61). He also aborted his own child. He writes, "Yes, you may ask me...[W]hat did you feel? Did you not feel sad -- not only because you had extinguished the life of an unborn child, but, more, because you had destroyed your own child? I swear to you that I had no feelings aside from the sense of accomplishment, the pride of expertise. On inspecting the contents of the bag I felt only the satisfaction of knowing that I had done a thorough job. You pursue me: You ask if perhaps for a fleeting moment or so I experienced a flicker of regret, a microgram of remorse? No and no. And that, dear reader, is the mentality of the abortionist: another job well done, another demonstration of the moral neutrality of advanced technology in the hands of the amoral" (pp.60-61).

Dr. Nathanson eventually rejected abortion on scientific grounds. In December of 1996, he became a Catholic.

@Rae, I'm sorry I didn't mean to be condescending. I don't who exactly you'll vote for but I know you'll vote for one of the pro-abortion democrats...

I can't believe a Catholic would vote for Mitt Romney. Any Catholic I've talked to believes Mormonism is a cult and Mormons belong in the deepest pits of hell for being false prophets.

I thought Brownback was your all's poster boy

Bob Dornan would probably try to force his daughter to carry a rape-pregnancy.

@Jasper: Yeah, you're probably right, though I don't solely vote on abortion. If there was a pro-life democrat who had a strong platform, I would vote for that candidate. I agree with the democratic platform more than I do the republican platform, which is why I would vote democrat, regardless of their abortion views.

Jasper, you truly are a pain in the rear end. You make no headway gaining converts when you treat everyone like a piece of crap when they don't agree with you. MK, Bethany, Valerie, Heather4life, even HisMan, do a HELL of a lot better job winning support for their side than the likes of you. Your comments are inflammatory and frankly embarrassing to your side. That last comment to Rae was quite indicative of the jerk you really are, considering she's one of the most civil people you have ever had the privilege to meet here. She already said she'd vote neither to your post.

MK...Bethany...I think you, as moderators, will understand where I'm saying. You two have gone a long way converting hearts to see more where you are coming from (yes, even my heart of stone...that prayer stuff of yours, MK, works wonders...hahaha). Jasper up there only hardens them more.

Dr. Nathanson also made a huge pile of $ selling his book. The joke among abortion docs is that they can retire by turning right-to-life and writing a book.

"Jasper, you truly are a pain in the rear end. You make no headway gaining converts when you treat everyone like a piece of crap when they don't agree with you."

Lyssie, what the heck are you talking about? I just said I was pretty sure what way Rae was going vote....

JK, mormons also believe that Jesus is the son of God, plus Mitt stood with our Catholic Bishop here is Mass on several issues when our cafeteria catholics would not....

SOMG,

Exactly how much did Dr.Nathanson make?

Hmm...maybe you are not as hardcore of a Catholic as I originally thought.

What i've heard from Catholics is that Mormons don't believe Jesus died for thier sins and are thus blasphemous.

For context they also say that Protestants are blasphemous because they don't believe Mary was a virgin her entire life.

Jasper, I apologize...it just seems that everytime I get on here, you're making a mean comment to a pro-choicer. I understand opinions get heated, but there are plenty of pro-lifers here that manage to keep from insulting others. I got here when you made the inflammatory remark and I decided I had seen enough of them.

Again, I apologize, as you amended that remark somewhat later.

Former Abortion doctor -- Dr. Tony Levatino, M.D.

--this is still legal...

With suction complete, look for your Sopher clamp. This instrument is about thirteen inches long and made of stainless steel. At one end are located jaws about 2 ½ inches long and about ¾ on an inch wide with rows of sharp ridges or teeth. This instrument is for grasping and crushing tissue. When it gets hold of something, it does not let go.

A second trimester D&E abortion is a blind procedure. The baby can be in any orientation or position inside the uterus. Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp and grasping anything you can. At twenty weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard – really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about 4 to 5 inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.

The toughest part of a D&E abortion is extracting the baby’s head. The head of a baby that age is about the size of a plum and is now free floating inside the uterine cavity. You can be pretty sure you have hold of it if the Sopher clamp is spread about as far as your fingers will allow. You will know you have it right when you crush down on the clamp and see a pure white gelatinous material issue from the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. You can then extract the skull pieces. If you have a really bad day like I often did, a little face may come out and stare back at you.

Congratulations! You have just successfully performed a Suction D&E abortion. You just affirmed her right to choose. You just made $600 cash in fifteen minutes.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/medical/delevatino.htm

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/medical/de.jpg

Bravo.

"Jasper, I apologize...it just seems that everytime I get on here, you're making a mean comment to a pro-choicer."

Yes, I realize this and I took MK's advice and instead of getting mad at "pro-choicers", start praying for them... I'm going to try....

Mary, for a book like that? A must-read/must-own among right-wing Catholics? And speaking fees at Catholic colleges and universities whenever he feels like giving a lecture tour? Let's just say a large pile of dough, enough to retire comfortably on, and leave it at that--I'm not an expert in the publishing industry and I haven't seen Nathanson's tax returns, so I can't give you an exact figure.

Nowadays you could also get research grants from right-to-life organizations for doing the kind of BS that Joel Brind and David C. Reardon do.

:)

Oh, Jasper, you could be lovable yet. :D

Right-to-life-ism is an industry.

@Lyssie: I dare say, you are definitely one of those folks who look at the glass half-full. ^_^

Sorry SoMG, I know the truth is sometimes tough to swallow....

SOMG,

Since you claim Nathanson rakes in the dough I assumed you had the facts and figures to back up what you said. A must read and must have among right wing Catholics? Have you surveryed right wing Catholics as to the number who have read and own this book? Do Jews or Protestants ever read it?
If you're going to make claims like these SOMG, be prepared to back them up.

I don't suppose anyone was watching the Tony's? And saw the amazing sweep that Spring Awakening had? Or see David Hyde Pierce win his first Tony? Or see the incredible performance from Company?

Yes science is a gift from God but it is not a god.

When the use of science directly opposes that which God has ordained, the use of science becomes evil.

Nancy Pelosi is delusional and to have someone like this in a position of leadership is truly frightening.

We get what we deserve, and the church should not be surprised.

Had to leave for an hour. Mary, I just googled 'Nancy Pelosi racial remarks.' I don't know how to put the links on. I'd need a lesson, as I am very new to the computer.

I must defend jasper for a moment. I just don't see where he has been nasty. The pro choice side has Cameron and SOMG. SOMG aka Dr. Defense has made death threats, and Cameron has out and out blasted people. Cameron, I do give you some credit for trying to clean things up a bit. SOMG, I'm not sure how the world of computers work, but you should have been arrested for your death threats! You have done it on other sites too. As far as nastiness goes, check out a pro choice blog sometime. You ain't seen nothin yet.

Who cares how much $ Nathanson makes? I'm just glad that he quit performing abortions.

yes smog! we know that "right-to-lifeism" is such a huge industry. Abortion is not much of an industry. Doctors don't really make much on abortion! Yes, you have it all figured out! We Pro-lifers are in it for the money.

Oh please. They sold it on stands outside Ronald Reagan's campaign rallies. I think it was a bestseller at one time.

i mean somg

No, Lm5K, both are industries, both are drivin by money.

educate me somg, exactly how does the pro-life "industy" make all this money. Is it more or less than the pro-abort industry?

hmmmm... no education tonight.

Erin, David Hyde Pierce won?!

I saw that on Broadway, Curtains was WONDERFUL! Had no idea the Tonys were on tonight, I would have watched them. After seeing the show I looked over to Kyle and remarked that I want to see how many Tony's this would win.

Bethany:

The abstract looks very promising, but abstracts only give us a main idea of the project. For me to better understand the true conclusions, results and goals, I usually look at the conclusion/discussion sections, which go more in depth in terms of future projects and what the data truly means.
As I said, it can be a slippery slope, but we can take measures to keep it from going too far. Per the death row inmates, I am against the death penalty anyways. If I had my way, death row wouldn't even exist!

Anyway I turned the comp on to check up but now it is labeled a "severe thunderstorm warning" so I guess I should turn off the comp.

Have fun all. See ya tomorrow.

SoMG:

Stay on point or risk becoming irrelevant.

You mean stem cells? I already told you: we learned how to isolate and grow adult stem cells by researching embryonic stem cells. That means if right-to-lifers had had their way we wouldn't know how to isolate and grow adult stem cells now.

See above.

Jasper,

I had to learn the same lesson.

I'm in the fox hole with you bro.

Press on.

Difference is...as believers in Christ's death and ressurrection we can be forgiven as we have unlimited access to the throne of mercy.

Every time a non-believer spews some garbage about God, the hole just gets deeper. They don't even realize it. And Paris Hilton thought she was untouchable.

The sad thing is that there is a way out if only they could see it and not reject it. Whadya say...let's help 'em?

SoMG,

But science is a gift from God according to NP, remember? If God is against killing embryos, why would he gift us with a science that kills them? Are you saying he is evil?

If it was God's will to discover the potential benefits of stem cell research, He would have provided a way that did not conflict with killing innocent human life. A house divided against itself cannot stand. God will not bless a science that involves killing innocent human life.

It's a pattern. Man always pushing his own agenda and as a result always screwing things up, rahter than having the faith required in a loving God who wants more than anything, to bless us, but according to His conditions.

If we forego embryonic stem cell research, I would bet you that He would open the windows of heaven in the area of adult stem cell research. Do we know better than Him....the very One who created stem cells, holds the design copyright and patent? I mean, he rubbed spittle in a blind man's eyes and made him see.

Bethany,

You have a soft and sweet heart. However, you must learn now not to straddle the fence. There are moral absolutes and no justification in the world can support the killing of innocent human life. I say we abandon embryonic stem cell research simply because it is wrong. Only God knows what destruction awaits us if we continue this evil.

Yes, HisMan, your god is evil.

Among other things, He sacrifices billions of unborn babies by spontaneous abortion and miscarriage every year.

Jasper, Jasper, Jasper ...

Unbiased research, darling--unbiased.

NO ONE on the pro-choice side will take you seriously if your source is "Priets for Life."

God is not evil. God is loving and kind. People say that they "fear" God, but I do not--I love God. I believe that everything happens for a good reason, so if bad things are happening it is God sacrificing His children, who he loves, to teach a lesson to humanity. So, perhaps, yes--embyonic stem cell research is from God--the question should be, is it a gift or is it a lesson?

I do not CARE if my beliefs have no foundation in the Bible, so no verse-spewing, please! I ... DO ... NOT ... CARE. They are my beliefs and I will stand by them.

All we need it love!

(and lemming pizza)

Jasper, Jasper, Jasper ...

Unbiased research, darling--unbiased.

NO ONE on the pro-choice side will take you seriously if your source is "Priets for Life."

God is not evil. God is loving and kind. People say that they "fear" God, but I do not--I love God. I believe that everything happens for a good reason, so if bad things are happening it is God sacrificing His children, who he loves, to teach a lesson to humanity. So, perhaps, yes--embyonic stem cell research is from God--the question should be, is it a gift or is it a lesson?

I do not CARE if my beliefs have no foundation in the Bible, so no verse-spewing, please! I ... DO ... NOT ... CARE. They are my beliefs and I will stand by them.

All we need it love!

(and lemming pizza)

jasper, I went back and read your post. Notice that the former abortionist refers to the "uterine contents" as a baby. BTW, that was so sad! I have read that off of the Pro Life Action League site before. A lot of abortionists claim that they contemplated suicide prior to conversion. No wonder.

Leah I'm not trying to be confrontational, but have you read the bible?

I ask because you seem to desire a connection with God(not saying you don't have one). To truly understand God's character you have to read everything in context. I know alot of times people get scared away from God because of man. That upsets me so much.

My pastor actually said something I think that y'all will like.

We were talking about judgement ect. and he said "The biggest thing separating us from homosexuals is that they *know* they are sinners, and we've gotten so "holy" that we pretend that we aren't."

I know that there are tons of people who DON'T feel like they aren't sinners (on this board even!) but it really is a problem within the church.

My point is, read the bible and come to your own conclusions.

I suggest reading the entire NT over a fairly short period of time. It really helps to understand everything when you see the larger social context. Then read the OT. Then the NT again. (Whew!)

If you are earnestly seeking God, pray that this will revel understanding. Ask God for His Holy Spirit. This gift will bring you closer to God and allow you to better discern His will.

I'll be praying for you!

Okay!

Early July for Leah, End of July for Alyssa and Rae.

JK: Sorry babe. It was on another post and the "J's" confuse me...Jasper, Jess, JK,...Forgived?

First weekend of August I go camping in Indiana to something called the Leprechaun Fest. $35.00 gets all you can eat ribs, chicken, burgers, lamb, dogs, salad dessert, beer, wine, soda, popcorn and snow cones. Hayrides take you onto 180 acres where you "hunt" for Leprechaun statues. Find one, turn it over, and win anywhere from $5.00 to $1500.00...Irish Music and really bad raffles.

Plus you get to camp!

Let me know who's in and I'll send details.
Bring your neices and nephews as kids 17 and under are FREE!

It's awesome...

Sorry this is off topic...moved it from another thread!

Bethany,
You have a soft and sweet heart. However, you must learn now not to straddle the fence. There are moral absolutes and no justification in the world can support the killing of innocent human life. I say we abandon embryonic stem cell research simply because it is wrong. Only God knows what destruction awaits us if we continue this evil.

Hisman, I understand what you're saying, and I can assure you that I have never once allowed the thought to enter my mind that it would be justifiable in any case, in any situation, under any circumstances, to use embryonic stem cells for medicine. I understand that what I wrote may have made it appear that way, but I was just trying to make a point to PrettyinPink. :)

I think it's unfortunate that anyone would need to base their beleif system on text... particular a collection of revisionist Jewish myths and folklore. That's not faith, spirituality, or anything of the sort. It's dogmatic opinion.

I think it's unfortuante that anyone would assume that another's faith was based only on text, when there is ample evidence to the contrary.

It's also unfortuante that you refuse the hope given in Scripture.

MK,

*Forgived*

Lemming pizza?

amen!

Hmmmm, I dont really have a problem with stem cell research. IVF happens (I have absolutely *no* problem with this), and embryos are left over. So instead of just waisting them, & throwing them away, why not let them be used for stem cell research.

As for abortion, why not allow scientist to use the embryos/z/f for stem cells research as well? I mean as long as abortion is going to take place, why not let some good research, that could possibly save your life one day, take place? I wish this research had been around when my grandparents died. My grandfather had Parkinson's Disease, and CVD/Diabetes killed my Nana @ 56.I miss my grandparents, but I miss my Nana more than anything. I can't really remember her anymore, and that breaks my heart. She practically raised me, and I *have* to have a pic sometimes to remember how beautiful she was.

Pip, do you agree with what Midnite said about using fetuses for scientific research, since they're going to be killed anyway? :-(

Midnite:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith042302.asp

"
....Patients with Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis received significant medical benefit using experimental adult-stem-cell regenerative medical protocols. These are benefits that supporters of embryonic-stem-cell treatments have yet to produce widely in animal experiments. Yet adult stem cells are now beginning to ameliorate suffering in human beings.

Celebrity Parkinson's disease victims such as Michael J. Fox and Michael Kinsley regularly tout ESCR as the best hope for a cure of their disease. Indeed, the Washington Post recently published a Kinsley rant on the subject in which the editor and former Crossfire co-host denounced opponents of human cloning as interfering with his hope for a cure. Yet as loudly as Fox and Kinsley promote ESCR in the media or before legislative committees, both have remained strangely silent about the most remarkable Parkinson's stem-cell experiment yet attempted: one in which researchers treated Parkinson's with the patient's own adult stem cells.

Here's the story, in case you missed it: A man in his mid-50s had been diagnosed with Parkinson's at age 49. The disease grew progressively, leading to tremors and rigidity in the patient's right arm. Traditional drug therapy did not help.

Stem cells were harvested from the patient's brain using a routine brain biopsy procedure. They were cultured and expanded to several million cells. About 20 percent of these matured into dopamine-secreting neurons. In March 1999, the cells were injected into the patient's brain.

Three months after the procedure, the man's motor skills had improved by 37 percent and there was an increase in dopamine production of 55.6 percent. One year after the procedure, the patient's overall Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale had improved by 83 percent � this at a time when he was not taking any other Parkinson's medication!

That is an astonishing, remarkable success, one that you would have thought would set off blazing headlines and lead stories on the nightly news. Had the treatment been achieved with embryonic stem cells, undoubtedly the newspapers would have screamed loudly enough to be heard. Unfortunately, reportage about the Parkinson's success story was strangely muted. True, the Washington Post ran an inside-the-paper story and there were some wire service reports. But the all-important New York Times � the one news outlet that drives television and cable news � did not report on it at all. Nor did a search of the Los Angeles Times website yield any stories about the experiment."

" Israeli doctors inserted a paraplegic patient's own white blood cells into her severed spinal cord, after which she regained bladder control and the ability to wiggle her toes and move her legs. (I only saw reporting on this case in the Globe and Mail, June 15, 2001.)
Immune systems destroyed by cancer were restored in children using stem cells from umbilical-cord blood. (There was a good story in the April 16, 2001 Time, but other than that I saw no reporting.)
At Harvard University, mice with Type I diabetes were completely cured of their disease. The experiment was so successful that human trials are now planned. (This was reported in the July 19, 2001, Harvard University Gazette, but I saw no coverage at all in the mainstream press.)
Diabetic mice treated with adult stem cells achieved full insulin production and all lived. This is in contrast to an experiment in which embryonic stem cells injected into diabetic mice achieved a 3 percent insulin production rate and all the mice died. (According to the May 2001 STATS, published by the Statistical Assessment Service, the embryo experiment made big news while the media ignored the adult cell experiment.)
How many humans have been treated by embryonic stem cells? Zero. Indeed, before human trials can even be safely undertaken researchers will have to overcome two serious difficulties that stand between patients and embryonic-cell regenerative medicine: 1) ES cells cause tumors, and 2) ES cells may be rejected by the immune system. Surmounting these difficulties � if they can be surmounted at all � will take a very long time and much expense. There is no risk of rejection with adult cells, by contrast, because they come from the patients' own bodies. Nor, at least so far, does adult-stem-cell therapy appear to cause tumors. This puts adult therapies years ahead of the game."

Beneficiary of Adult Stem Cell Treatment for Parkinson's Disease

Embryonic stem cells may cause tumors- A US study

Midnite, I'm so sorry for your loss of your Nana, and grandfather, by the way. But I think your hope in Embryonic Stem cell research is misplaced.

VesCell� � Adult Stem Cell therapy for Heart Disease
Cardiologists and cardiac surgeons are using VesCell� to treat no-option patients suffering from Ischemic Heart Disease (Coronary Artery Disease), Cardiomyopathy and End-stage Heart Failure by relieving debilitating symptoms such as severe angina pectoris (chest pain) and shortness of breath. Read More

http://www.theravitae.com/

Adult Stem Cells from Human Cord Umbilical Cord Blood Successfully Engineered to Make Insulin

World's First Adult Stem Cell Study Using Patient's Own Fat Tissue
"�This is another significant advance in our international collaboration to find solutions to heart failure and other cardiovascular diseases through adult stem cell treatment."

Lauren: No, I haven't read the Bible--but I will. I also want to read the Koran, the Buddhist and Hindu scriptures, etc. You see, I do feel a very deep connection to God--but I am a deist (sp?), meaning that I believe when a Christian says "God" and a Muslim says "Allah" and a Hindi says "Krishna" (etc--seeing as there are thousands of Hindu gods), they're all talking about the same entity.

I know my ideas won't get much support here--but there they are anyway. I believe very strongly that God is too big for one religion. He is the world, isn't He?

Oh. And I don't believe in Satan. In case anyone was wondering--giving evil a name gives it power, and I choose to not allow that evil into my life.

The end.

So you believe that evil exists, but if you don't give it a name it can't hurt you? :S That makes no sense to me.

Leah: "NO ONE on the pro-choice side will take you seriously if your source is "Priets for Life."

Priests for Life are honest.

Bethany, not particularly because I don't want the poor fetuses to die in the first place..

The "dying anyway" part of the argument stems from the same reasoning as donating your organs and body to science after death. Are you against using the organs and bodies of the dead for purposes benefiting humanity?

Thought I would elaborate:

As far as aborted fetuses go, I don't think they would work as well, because these specimens are already dead so viable stem cells would be hard to procure. (let me know if I'm wrong, this is just me thinking about it for a while). If there is any use for a dead fetus, medically, I would be interested to know about it.

Also, I think the point about the "dying anyway" needs to be clarified.
This is about taking a situation where the possibilities are limited. For example, in terms of organ donating/body donating, these people are in positions where they are dead or dying, and the choices involve the choice to help people after death; some choose to have a traditional burial, but sometimes people choose to donate their body to science (who will then be "experimented on" as there are several ways to do so).

In case of IVF, where the intention is creating new human life, there are again very limited choices for the extra embryos. These embryos can be left to die, can be donated to science, can sit there and wait for a future opportunity. If after a certain period of time, the couple decides to donate the embryos knowing other opportunities to be bleak, only other choice is...the biohazard bin. Here again, taking a little good out of an inevitably bad situation.

You brought up death row inmates and elective abortion.

In my opinion both of those are nonsensical in the first place. The "death" part of this situation is not (or, at least, should not be) inevitable. As far as death row goes, the person may decide to donate their organs, and so on. That deals with the death, but remember the state is directly causing the death of these people. Just as the state is promoting the mass public killing their unborn children, it doesn't mean that unborn children are inevitably going to die. So I don't think we should promote "making use" of those two institutions of death, not only because of the obvious and what I first stated, but also because we are actively trying to stop these already abusive procedures. Doing so would be exploiting them, more likely to keep them standing strong, and further lubricating the slippery slope.

Hope that was more clear. It's late, let me know if I was confusing or misleading on something.

PIP I am glad you understand that using Death Row inmates for research would be exploitation, that is exactly true. There is no difference in using human embryos. The death of an embryo is not inevitable either. We could urge parents to use IVF responsibly, that is, to agree to try to parent all of their embryos or at least counsel them more about it. Also, embryo donation has been successful - it's like adoption but people get to control the pregnancy that way. So you see, death is not necessarily inevitable. If that is true, then you must conclude with me that experimenting on human embryos is exploitation. Your whole last paragraph could completely apply to the IVF industry. Let he who has ears hear.

It's hard to say. God only talks to crazy people, and you can't always trust them to pass on the message correctly.

mixed up Tony, I'm so glad you know it all.

Lynn--I agree, but is there any way to enforce this standard for IVF? Encouragement alone won't do a lot for these embryos..

It may not, but all we can do is try.

If they are throwing them away, that isn't acceptable, because it's saying those human lives are trash. If we say it's acceptable for medical research, we are agreeing with them that embryos are disposable.

Embryo donation is a very acceptable and ethical alternative for the unneeded or extra embryos. Not only does it help the babies who would have no chance otherwise, it gives children to families who otherwise couldn't have a child.

There's always a life affirming alternative out there. We just have to work hard to push this as an alternative, just as we would work hard to push anything else for the pro-life cause.