As our commenter Laura first reported yesterday, according to the Associated Press this morning:

Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts suffered a seizure at his summer home in Maine yesterday, causing a fall that resulted in minor scrapes, a Supreme Court spokeswoman said. He was to remain in a Maine hospital overnight....

Roberts, 52, underwent a "thorough neurological evaluation, which revealed no cause for concern," Supreme Court spokeswoman Kathy Arberg said in a statement. Roberts had a similar episode in 1993, she said. Doctors called yesterday's incident "a benign idiopathic seizure," she added.

Left bloggers, given a stern talking to by their poobah Kos only last week to talk nice, are wishing for a death sentence or making other crass statements....

Wonkette:

Chief Justice John Roberts has died in his summer home in Maine. No, not really, but we know you have your fingers crossed.

Delilah Boyd:

What I learned Today: Supreme Court Justice's Foaming At The Mouth Is "No Cause For Concern."

Justinsomnia :

Who’s Idiopathic? Chief Justice John Roberts.

Irregular Times :

... [Roberts] was on a dock in at his vacation home in Port Clyde, Maine. I know Port Clyde. It’s not exactly a bustling metropolis. It's a sleepy little town by the ocean, with bed and breakfasts and rental cottages. It's the kind of place that people like John Roberts go to in order to relax.

So, I doubt the suggestion in the Daily News article that these seizures could be brought on by stress. The kind of stress that is required to bring on seizures is pretty rare in places like out on the golf course or on a boat dock at a vacation home. If John Roberts really is having stress-induced seizures that lead him to lose consciousness and fall down while playing golf and walking out on the dock at his oceanside vacation home, then he's a maniac.

There is something other than stress that can induce "seizures" that make people fall down and lose consciousness: Psychoactive drugs.... How do we know that Justice John Roberts isn't losing consciousness because he's on some kind of drug obtained by prescription or on the street?

Democratic Underground [hat tip: Lonewacko]

ThomCat: I hate to wish anyone ill, but I hope his tenure on the supreme court is a short one.

kaygore: If there is a God, then he is not too young to become the right-hand maiden to Satan in the inner reaches of Hell.

antifaschits: [responding to a request for prayers] why? karma, if it exists, will probably kick this SOB in the teeth. Except, unlike 40,000,000 americans, he has access to the best of the best health care plans in the world. If, unexpectedly, he sees his own frail human life, his ability to suffer and die, his future pass before his eyes, like it does to hundreds of thousands each day in this country, if it educates him about the harm he inflicts on others, then, yeah, I can see hoping for him. But more likely than not, he won't. He will not recognize life as most of us see it. He will continue in his neocon way of viewing things, and simply add fat to the fire when he recovers and returns to the bench.

aquart: [responding to the request for prayers] Okay: Dear Lord, May the evil John Roberts does come back to him and only him, from every place it has gone, from everyone it has harmed.

kaygore: Better prayer. Dear God, Please release Satan's hand-maiden, John Roberts, from his worldly cares and allow him to join once again with the Prince of Darkness in the lowest reaches of Hell. We pray this in the name of your son, our lord, Jesus. Amen.

Bornaginhooligan: I prayed. But it didn't come true.

NoodleyAppendage: See. That's what happens when you attempt to goose step down the stairs. Neocon, pro-fascist horseplay is inherently dangerous.

GoddessOfGuinness: After a fall...He must have tripped on his preconceived notions... ...the ones he didn't bring with him to the job.

Onlooker: I think the hatred is tongue in cheek, but .... How can he be decent when he uses his power to infringe on women's rights, civil rights, and worker's rights? He's a person whose decisions can affect the well-being of millions, and he has done far more harm than good. He may be a decent man in his private life, but he's a dangerous man on the SC.

youngdem: Just because he looks like a decent man doesn't mean he is..He is an evil, UNAMERICAN man... Ted Bundy also looked like a decent man. This one is just a serial killer of fundamental rights.

mitchum: F*** that noise; he's a [expletive deleted] lowlife fascist

Massachusetts: May Roberts and every other Bu$hco appointed treasonous Bastard rot in hell for their interpretive abuse and misuse of OUR (WE THE PEOPLES), Constitution and Rights! NO SYMPATHY HERE! MAYBE EXXON OR ONE OF THE BIG CORPS WHO CARE LESS ABOUT OUR COUNTRY AND PEOPLE WILL SEND HIM SOME LILIES.

eppur_se_muova: Great, just don't bring him back. nt

mitchum: F*** him; it wouldn't bother me if that was a one way trip

Finally, on my own blog, Laura:

Wow! All of you who prayed for the demise of a Supreme Court justice may have just received your wish. I got my wish when I found out it was ROBERTS.

And they call us "vitriolic," their favorite term - next to "misogynist."

WOW, these people are HATEFUL!

I would never wish for a pro-choice justice to die! Or to "release him to the farthest reaches of Hell". What is wrong with these people?

Laura, your blood runs cold. That statement will come back to haunt you someday.

These are some outrageous reactions, but to be fair, Jill not everyone on the left is this vile. From the site, Talk Left:

Think kind and healthy thoughts for Chief Justice Roberts, who suffered a seizure yesterday.

Bethany, Could you imagine if all pro choicers took turns wishing the same evil fate on their beloved abortionists?

Bethany, I meant all pro lifers.

I think Jill knows that not everyone on the left would wish him harm... she is just spotlighting the ones who do.

Thank you, Adam, for wishing him well, and not being like these awful people above, in that way.

Heather, that's the difference... we pray for abortionists, hoping that one day they will see the light and change their ways...these people like Laura, they wish harm on their enemies.

I went to one blog that said "Reverend Falwell is worm food now." How would Laura like it if I were to write the same thing about deceased abortionist John Britton?

Here's another one from democratic underground:

"...and I can no longer ellicit concerns for those whom have helped to abbrogate the constitution.I refuse to "wish him well" or pretend I hope for an early recovery.In my heart of hearts, I pray he dies slowly by an STD that he could have avoided by the condom use he felt it was wrong to advocate for American youth.I hope that tonight, John Roberts confronts his mortality, and then, weighing himself, finds himself as wanting as I do..."

Bethany, it is a deep and disturbing soul sickness. I can't even bring myself to say such things. I've discovered that these pro choice "Bastions of Tolerance" are ONLY tolerant if one is PC. Not all pro choicers are this way though.

Laura proved this yesterday by referring to Norma McCorvey as a "coke head" and a "drunk." If Norma had remained PC, I'm sure Laura would have sympathised with her, and she would have referred to her as an alcoholic and a suffering drug addict.

"Bethany, it is a deep and disturbing soul sickness"

Yes, many of them being the Godless creatures that they are, have this problem.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I knew my comments would be pretty tame compared to the "real life" blogs. I think it's hilarious that Jill was just WISHIN' for a Supreme Court Justice to get hit with a malady - AND IT TURNED OUT TO BE FETUS BOY!
Remember; Be careful what you wish for...

Troll girl has arrived.

You consider your comments tame, Laura? Yours was one of the worst.

LOL! Laura, I thought you worked for a living. Why aren't you at work today?

Adam, I appreciate your sense of balance, but I'm not here to do PR for Left bloggers. Their hateful chatter has reached such a noise level that even Kos is trying to tone them down.

I think Oliver is right- she is probably just trolling the site. But at the same time, I still feel pity for her, because she is still a person who obviously has some severe issues and really needs to find out what love is. Maybe she never has felt loved. Maybe this is the way she copes with that. I feel that she must have been hurt in life, to have ended up as bitter and cold-hearted as she appears to be. If she would just open up her heart to us, she would find some friends here who would be more than willing to help her.

Laura has NEVER had an abortion, but she knows for a fact that PAS is nonexistent. She's a power hungry wing ding!

Bethany, true. You never do know what could have happened to a person that could cause this behavior.

As dishonest as Laura has been so far, I wouldn't be surprised if she was lying about never having been pregnant before. Her posts seem to reflect someone who has had something tragic happen in her life, and I think it could very easily be abortion.

Bethany, I THOUGHT the same thing!!!

Well, you know what they say about great minds...:)

Laura reminds me alot of my mom...very cold, yet somehow sad. I'll be praying for her

Lauren, wow, I am sorry. :-(

I don't know if this is too personal to ask, but I am curious. Do you have any idea what type of events in her life may have shaped her into that type of person?

My mother's little brother killed himself when he was 23. I was born about 4 years later. I think that his death changed my mom's life alot as well as my grandparent's. They don't talk about it...AT ALL, but I know it was something that really defined them as a family.

Hey, here's a question for y'all: How are the hateful words that the moonbats spouted at Chief Justice Roberts any worse than the words that many of you have spouted toward Laura?

I get it. You disagree with Laura. You think she's wrong. So do I, as a matter of fact. But that doesn't excuse ad hominem attacks.

Furthermore, if any of you are Christian, then you need to remember that every word you write is a reflection of your faith for good or ill. As Paul wrote, we are all "ambassadors for Christ."

>

Your prayers will all go unanswered because god is imaginary.... if he was a real all powerful deity, there would be no Roe and no abortions...

Naaman, where do you see ad hominem attacks towards Laura? We have responded to her ad hominem attacks, no more than that. I do not believe she has received a single insult.

Lauren, that is absolutely terrible! It makes sense that she would have become bitter after that. I hope and pray that she will be able to find peace and learn how to remove the bitterness from her life so that you and she can become closer as mother and daughter.

"Hey, here's a question for y'all: How are the hateful words that the moonbats spouted at Chief Justice Roberts any worse than the words that many of you have spouted toward Laura?

I get it. You disagree with Laura. You think she's wrong. So do I, as a matter of fact. But that doesn't excuse ad hominem attacks."

Xian hypocrites think it is OK an long as they hate in the name of Jesus....

Your prayers will all go unanswered because god is imaginary.... if he was a real all powerful deity, there would be no Roe and no abortions...

That isn't true, DcLawDawg.

"That isn't true, DcLawDawg."

Got any scientific proof published in any peer reviewed scientific journal that any prayer is ever answered....???

Didn't think so.....

@Naaman

Youre right. Our insults to Laura are just the same. I mean they werent provoked at all, and they are of the degree of wishing she was dead and cursing her to Hell.

You are right that we shouldnt stoop down and throw insults, mainly because shes only trolling us for that reason, not for any rational debate of course. You are however incorrect by drawing a line between the two insults and where their hate lies.

I dont mean this to be rude, but you dont come across as the level headed "hip" pro-lifer for attacking other "ignorant" pro-lifers. Its fine to disagree with us and everything, but please dont do it just to be "cool."

LOL that's the best you have, DClawdawg?

Bethany,I pray for the same thing. Right now she is so lost in "unitarianism" and it's so sad. She wants to believe, but she thinks that the bible degrades women ect.

((((((hugs)))))) Lauren.

((((hugs)))) back Bethany.

Naaman, I agree. Some of things said about Laura were a bit much.

"LOL that's the best you have, DClawdawg?"

That's all I need.... if you have some scientific proof of any deity answering prayers, you could post it right here....If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.

In Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

In Mark 9:23:

All things are possible to him who believes.

In Luke 1:37:

For with God nothing will be impossible.

Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.

This is because god is imaginary and has nothing to do with abortions or anything else...

"Some of things said about Laura were a bit much."

Christian hypocrites think it is OK to judge others and make hateful statements about nonbelievers as long as they do it in the name of Jesus....

Go figure...

As an epileptic, I don't find jokes about seizures funny at all.

"Yes, many of them being the Godless creatures that they are, have this problem."

The problem is that your god is not a very nice deity... he enjoys killing children...

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all � old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

so much for a loving deity..... ROFLMFAO!

Naaman, I was wrong. I went back and realized there were in fact some insults to Laura. I'm sorry for my error.

Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

That's not always true.

Hindrances to prayer:

Unbelief/doubt
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Sin
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Asking withthe wrong motives "You ask, and don't receive, because you ask amiss, so that you may spend it for your pleasures." James 4:3.

Unforgiving spirit - And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

There are many, many more examples of prayers being hindered by different things in our life. God never guarantees that our prayers will be answered if they are being hindered by something.

"Jill not everyone on the left is this vile"

At least people on the left are not known for their pedophillia...

The reason the right wing christians hate abortion is because it decreases the supply of children for them to molest and prey on.

* Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.

* Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in
prison.

* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.

* Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

* Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.

* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.

* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.

* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.

* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after
admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.

* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.

* Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.

* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.

* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.

* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.

* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

* Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child.

* Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.

* Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.

* Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger allegedly had sex with a 16 year old girl when he was 28.

* Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.

* Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.

* Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful
sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.

* Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.

* Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after
the allegations were reported in the media.

* Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.

* Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.

* Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.

* Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.

* Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year
old girl.

* Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.

* Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age
of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).

* Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year old girl.

* Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.

* Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.

* Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.

* Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.

* Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.

* Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.

* Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months
in federal prison and fined $18,000.

* Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.

* Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex
from boys and girls over the internet.

* Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a "good military man" and "church goer," was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

* Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.

* Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years
in prison.

* Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was charged with rape for allegedly paying a 15-year old girl for sex. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women

DClawdawg, I'm very impressed. You know how to copy and paste large articles. What are you trying to prove? Who ever claimed that republicans have no sin?

I have a friend who sort of acts like Laura.It's sometimes hard to just listen to her rant and never say anything back. Example; She will see an over weight person on the street, and she will immediately start with the "Fat jokes" She will pick on retarded people. She stabs her own family in the back. She picks on people's appearances ALL the time. She has had an abortion. She thinks it should stay legal. Why do I stay friends with her? I guess I still see good in her. I really think she's in deep emotional pain.

At least people on the left are not known for their pedophillia...
The reason the right wing christians hate abortion is because it decreases the supply of children for them to molest and prey on.

And FYI, "republican politician" is not synonymous with "Christian".

It sometimes seems that way though, Bethany. The republicans are always trying to corner the market on Christian "values" voters. I know on at least 2 separate occasions I was told by my church how to vote, and told which pieces of legislature I was not to support.

"The republicans are always trying to corner the market on Christian "values" voters."

They're not perfect, but they're alot better than the Democrat party.

"I know on at least 2 separate occasions I was told by my church how to vote, and told which pieces of legislature I was not to support."

Thats good news, I glad to hear some pastors have some balls.

LaBelleGarce,

Do you regret having your child terminated? just curious.

jasper,
Churches aren't supposed to tell their congregations how to vote, they could lose their tax exempt status, which would be bad for my church, seeing that they already have financial problems. I know you don't value the right to choose, but I thought at least you would value the right to choose who to vote for. If your priest expressed a desire for everyone to vote for a Democratic candidate would you praise him for his "balls" as well?

DAWG.,

So let me see if I understand...If we are Christian we are hypocrites for criticizing someone's outrageous behavior.

But if we don't believe in God the it's okay to criticize the Christians?

Do you realize that you have come on here and made exactly the same unsavory types of comments you accused us of?

What's up with that?

JK,

Father Corapi has forgone his tax exemption for exactly this reason.

If a far left priest was encouraging us to vote for a-embryonic stem cell research and pro-abortion, pro-embryonic stem cell research, pro-homosexual marriage...I would be outraged. Not because he disagrees with me, but because he disagrees with church teaching.

If he was a democrat that was pro-choice, anti embryonic stem cell and anti homosexual marriage, then I would applaud the priest, yes.

It's not about democrat or republican, it's about issues, and the churches stand on them. Not an individuals stand on them, but the church herself's.

Dawg Gone?

"jasper,
Churches aren't supposed to tell their congregations how to vote, they could lose their tax exempt status"

so what, let's pay the taxes and not be silent on the social issues of the day.

"I know you don't value the right to choose"

yes, I do, I value the right to choose on many thing, but not the right to choose murder.

"If your priest expressed a desire for everyone to vote for a Democratic candidate would you praise him for his "balls" as well?"

Yes, then I would leave that church and go to one that celebrates life.

It's one thing for a pastor, priest, or church to present their views and positions in the hopes that church goers take them into consideration. It's another to be told like a three year old what to do and what to believe. People should make their own decisions on their own personal politics, not be scared into them by fear of losing their salvation or their place in their church.

And some churches don't have the luxury of throwing their tax exempt status to the wind, although its great that some can. As I mentioned before, my church already has financial difficulties, and cannot afford to lose their tax exempt status.

LaBelleGrace, you can't PROVE that PAS doesn't exist. There are numerous abortion support groups out there that say it DOES. You are 1 person. I'm going with the group. Dr. Reardon has studied post abortive women. He gave their despair a name. How dare you try to take that away from them! Someone had to come along and give other illnesses a name. We have bipolar, anxiety disorder, BPD, PTSD, and so on. We could never treat these people without these diagnoses.

You know, I have PTSD. I also have had an abortion. I really don't find the effects remotely comparable :-P

I hope that John Roberts is all right. I strongly dislike his policy, but I'd never wish him dead.

Oh, has anyone here seen the movie Hairspray yet?? I went to see it last night with my best friend and it was AMAZING!! We were the only people in the theatre and we got to dance and sing in the aisles and stuff. It was fun!

Erin,
Oooh, that sounds like fun, dancing and singing in a movie theatre. I haven't seen Hairspray yet, but I plan on it soon. :-)

And you're right, I don't care for John Roberts as a Supreme Court justice, but I'm glad that his episode wasn't serious and I'm glad he's going to be OK.

Erin, not everyone who has an abortion has PAS, just like not everyone who goes through something tramatic gets PTSD. Just because your abortion didn't cause something similar to PTSD doesn't mean it won't in some women.

I'm curious (if it's not to personal) what was your treatment for PTSD. I did EMDR. It was fairly successful for me. I'm just curious what you used an if it helped.

Anyways, no I havn't seen hairspray yet, though I've heard it is good. The last movie I saw was Transformers and it was AWESOME!

Lauren- My parents just sent me to some basic therapy. I still go. To be honest, the more physical aspects of the PTSD haven't really cooled down, though mentally I'm much better than I was.

I'm so happy we have pro-choicers who aren't gleefully rejoicing Robert's seizure. Thank you guys for not being jerks!

"It's one thing for a pastor, priest, or church to present their views and positions in the hopes that church goers take them into consideration. It's another to be told like a three year old what to do and what to believe."

If someone can't handle the Truth, thats too bad. The Priest should tell the Truth about what the church teaches and not be cowering like a little mouse, afaid that they might "offend" somebody.

"So let me see if I understand...If we are Christian we are hypocrites for criticizing someone's outrageous behavior."

Your jesus forbids you from judging others and/or calling them hateful names..... if you claim to be a follower of jesus and then fail to follow his teachings, you are a christian hypocrite... it is that simple...

"But if we don't believe in God the it's okay to criticize the Christians?"

Sure.... non christians are not bound by your jesus' teachings..

"Do you realize that you have come on here and made exactly the same unsavory types of comments you accused us of?"

I have pointed out some christian hypocrisy..

I'm not worried about being "offended". I was never "offended" that the leadership of my church held those views because I have always known that they have and it does not "offend" me when people hold different political views than myself. What worries me is that they are holding peoples' personal preferences, ideas and views in such low regard. If we were all supposed to think with one collective brain, why did God choose to bless us with individual ones?

"LaBelleGrace, you can't PROVE that PAS doesn't exist."

Nobody has to prove it doesn't exist.... no one has to prove a negative....like your deity, if you claim he is real the onus is on you to prove he exists, otherwise, he is imaginary, just like post abortion syndrome...

"There are numerous abortion support groups out there that say it DOES. You are 1 person. I'm going with the group."

The AMA and the APA say PAS does not exist... these are the official word on medical and psychiatric conditions.... the AMA and the APA carry more weight than some baloney right to life website...

"Dr. Reardon has studied post abortive women. He gave their despair a name."

David Reardon is a quack.... he is not recognized by the AMA or the APA....

"How dare you try to take that away from them!"

You cannot take away that which they never had...

"Someone had to come along and give other illnesses a name. We have bipolar, anxiety disorder, BPD, PTSD, and so on. We could never treat these people without these diagnoses."

all of these diseases and mental conditions are found in the DSM IV, which is the official manual of psychiatric conditions and how they are diagnosed.... go look in it for "Post Abortion Syndrome" and you will not find it because it is bunk and not recognized by the medical community!

Dawg,
I have pointed out some Christian hypocrisy..

If that's what you want to call it, okay. Making a laundry list of every thing wrong that a Christian or Republican has ever done to prove that their are inconsistencies in human nature seems a little tacky, but whatever...

Are you saying that the rules are differentfor you than for us and that as you see it, you can come here, attack us, and use that as a test to see if everyone of us responds the way you think we will, so that you can say, "See, christians get mad just like everybody else?"

Because I don't think that a single Christian here would argue with you. Not one of us would claim that Christians are either sinless or perfect.

So what is your point? Christians make mistakes? They aren't perfect? They can be hypocrites? You win. We are all of the above. Now allow me to add lying to the list...

I think you seem like a nice guy. Rational. Intelligent. Eloquent. Would you care to conduct a civil debate on abortion?

Dawg,

Your jesus forbids you from judging others and/or calling them hateful names....

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Someone here called you a "hateful" name? Point 'em out. 20 lashes with a mullet! Cuz I just looked and I can't find that anywhere...

Where did we call anyone names? We said that laura seemed sad and cold, which she does. We didn't say that "Laura is a ________" or anything similar.

We aren't "attacking" her, or "judging" her. We know nothing about her other than how she presents herself on this board. On this board she has presented herself quite harshly. Throughout any conversation I have seen we have called upon each other to pray for whatever hurt she may be feeling.

A great quote I'd like to share is "Whenever someone asks you to remember what Jesus would do, know that a perfectly acceptable answer is to freak out and turn over tables". When we see gruesome injustice and blashphemy, we sometimes must use our "strict words". We love Laura and all of our "choicers", but that doesn't mean we will tolerate everything they do with a smile.

****

Erin, I would look into EMDR. It was *really* good at minimizing the physical symptoms. I did the "tap" therapy, and that seemed to help alot.

JK, I feel the same way, concerning churches and their lack of respect for personal preferences. A friend of mine even said that in 2004 her priest straight out told the congregation to vote for Bush. It was not a suggestion but rather an order. I just couldn't believe it.

"If a far left priest was encouraging us to vote for a-embryonic stem cell research and pro-abortion, pro-embryonic stem cell research, pro-homosexual marriage...I would be outraged. Not because he disagrees with me, but because he disagrees with church teaching."

Please explain how a gay couple marrying affects you or your marital relationship....

prettyinpink,
I was told in almost the same manner regarding Bush in 2004.

"LOL! Laura, I thought you worked for a living."

Typical Xtian hypocrite tactic... when you have nothing to attack the message, just attack the messenger...

"Why aren't you at work today?"

Ever heard of vacation? I'm self employed.... I can do whatever I want with my workday.....

"I think you seem like a nice guy. Rational. Intelligent. Eloquent."

Thanx! You are correct on all counts...

"Would you care to conduct a civil debate on abortion?"

I doubt you have anything much to debate.... abortion is legal... it isn't murder and it does not kill any babies....

The only people who are against abortion seem to be those who oppose it on religious grounds.. there is no secular reason to oppose abortion... it is a woman's choice and none of anyone else's business... that's the bottom line...

If you think these Godless proaborts are bad, you should check out the abortion message board on AOL where they hang out. The valliant prolifers there could use your help. You'll have to go to www.aol.com and get a free AOL email address to post (you don't have to install AOL's software to do it), but you can red without logging in:

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=59700&func=3&channel=News

"I'm sorry, did I miss something? Someone here called you a "hateful" name? Point 'em out. 20 lashes with a mullet! Cuz I just looked and I can't find that anywhere..."

I recognize some of you from AOL message boards... while I haven't see any righteous Xtian name calling yet, I predict it won't be long before the name calling and hell threats start...

Laura Dawg,

Please explain how a gay couple marrying affects you or your marital relationship....

You mean you suddenly think that I have something to debate/offer?

Before I enter into debate with you I would need some sort of sign that you were serious and not just working out some personal anger issues...

Now allow me to add lying to the list...

Apparently, that one went right over you head...

Hey Kreskin, (Laura/Dawg)

I recognize some of you from AOL message boards... while I haven't see any righteous Xtian name calling yet, I predict it won't be long before the name calling and hell threats start...

Sorry to disappoint, but that's one prediction that won't be coming true! You see, we don't need to resort to name calling to point out your flaws. You seem to be doing a fine job all by yourself.

Who cares what your priest says or what some politician does. Everyone here is skirting the real issue (which has NOTHING to do with religion.)

I came to this board to hopefully do two things as a pro-lifer.

1) I want to finally hammer down the definitive philosophical dismisal of abortion.

2)Make it 100% clear to the pro-choice and pro-life side alike that abortion has ZERO to do with being responsible and that it is 100% driven by the desire to not be pregnant, which in turn is largely a desire driven by petty motives.

-It is my opinion, and something I have seen many many times, that both the pro-life and pro-choice seem to think that abortion is a question over a mothers responsibility to their child long term. I feel extremely confident that if there were strong institutions supporting both pregnant women (young and old) and adoption AND that if the public truly understood that abortion is a selfish act intended to avoid 9 months of uncomfort that abortion would become nominal and most people today, right now, would be appalled and would decry abortion. I have met countless people who say things like "Oh Im for abortion, I mean a mother shouldnt have to die to save her baby!" or "Oh Im for abortion, I mean if you cant afford a kid you shouldnt have to have one!" If you ever watch PP advertisments, its almost always geared towards "responsibility" which of course is horseshit when answered with adoption and state support.

I find myself highly disapointed by the pro-choice side for trolling all these threads and equally disapointed in the pro-life side for allowing yourselves to be drawn into pointless arguments on religion. I am an on-fire devout christian, but Im not here to debate the validity of the Bible, and honestly I do not think most of you are.

I truly feel that if the pro-life side spent more effort honing in on the philosophical basis for our belief, spent time advertising the true reasons for abortion, AND spent money and support to adoption and legislation mandating stronger maternity laws, we would be extremely effective. Only a few twisted people can really look zat what abortion is, really understand the logical premise for it, and still come out on the choice side.

I apologize for rambling, but you can see that I am frustrated.

Oliver,

You have to understand, that being new, you may not be familiar with the way things have been working here. Most of us (on both sides) have been posting for months now. I would say that a good 70% of the pro choice people who post here came on sounding very similar to Laura and DCDawg...it took time to weed out the trouble makers from the sincere. But we did it. At first glance they ALL looked like trouble makers. Go back to March and read how we all began...

It is a process of evolving...When posters like Laura and DCdawg first come on, it's hard to tell if they are posturing or testing...so we play the game for awhile. One of two things will happen. They will either tire of their game, or they will let down their walls and begin to truly dialogue.

But to just ignore them, or dismiss them right away, is to take a chance that we will lose an opportunity to actually exchange ideas.

For now, these two girls are just beating their breasts and patting each other on the back for their cleverness. They probably go to another site and complement each other and high five each other and swap war stories...We know that and don't care.

It may seem like they are "drawing us in" but they aren't. We are all just feeling each other out.

I get the feeling that they will grow bored and leave soon of their own volition, but on the outside chance that one or both of them is truly reaching out for help, guidance or honest debate, we are willing to play their little game with them.

You don't know what frustrated is until you've met Cameron...whom we love now, by the way. But boy oh boy, talk about testing...

Oliver,

About institutions supporting women in pregnancy, there are over 3500 crisis pregnancy centers in this country, run by pro-lifers, providing such services as emergency shelters, clothing, medical and legal referrals, and support for a woman by a volunteer. I would like to point out that we have two facilities in the midsize midwestern city which provide shelter to women and girls, one by court order, the other by choice. By the way, thanks to pro-life efforts, our former governor signed a law permitting pregnant minors to seek emergency shelter at any facility for mothers and infants if they are being abused or have reason to fear abuse. I would say pro-life people are definitely putting their money where their mouths are in offering assistance to women facing crisis pregnancies.
Concerning adoption. There is often the issue of parents who will not, for whatever reason, sign away parental rights. There are also courts who for whatever unfathomable reason, will not terminate parental rights or will reinstate rights to totally unfit parents. Also, with assistance and support, we have such programs where I live as well, families can be better enabled to remain intact, which is preferable.
That's not to say our adoption system doesn't have a lot of hardened arteries in it or that there haven't been much needed changes.
At one time, single parent adoptions were unheard of. I recall years ago a black woman stating that any black woman walking into an adoption agency would have been laughed right out of it. If what this woman says is true, one must wonder how many black children lost out on a loving parent, home, and extended family because of some stupid prejudice. We are seeing more single parent adoptions of all races and barriers and prejudices are being broken down.
I won't get into any debates over gay adoption, but I seriously can't have a problem with a lesbian couple who adopted the severely disabled child of drug addicted parents or the gay male couple who adopted AIDS babies and gave them a loving home.
Sometimes its just a matter of putting out an appeal. I understand Evangelical leaders are encouraging church members to adopt hard to place children. Also, many years ago, my hometown newpaper had a section called "A Child is Waiting" that was very effective in finding homes for hard to place children.

Adam, I appreciate your sense of balance, but I'm not here to do PR for Left bloggers. Their hateful chatter has reached such a noise level that even Kos is trying to tone them down.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at July 31, 2007 08:59 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Typical. You're just on a smear campaign to further your agenda.

I've always found it quite sad when someone will sell their integrity to further their agenda.

Mary - Dont misunderstand me. I do understand that there is already alot of good work in progress, however my beef is a two pronged one. Number one, we need people to understand from a moral point of view that abortion is at least immoral to some degree, and to understand that the only drive behind abortion is the desire to avoid the pregnancy itself, not parenting, again combating the PP propaganda that abortion is resonsible. Then two, we have to make both the adoption services and maternity laws in general into something so strong and ingrained into society (much like a certain procedure we all know and love) that both the desire and need for abortion is gone and that there are an "in-your-face" number of services available.

Mk- I suppose that you could be correct, and I may be just glossing over the pro-life responses, but it just doesnt feel like we have any control and that we are getting upset over the topics they intend us to. I understand this really isnt "forum" and it is more of a series of topical threads, however it appears that many a "thread" get so easily derailed over subjects that, honestly in my opinion, have no true affect on the issue.

I really want to just sit down and hardcore debate the issues that I feel are integral to abortion, but I really do not feel it a good use of time to debate the existance of PAS or if Jesus wants us to kill old people or not.

Nevertheless, I do understand that you are the experienced poster and I suppose Ill shut my trap and just lurk untill something juicy pops up.

Oliver,

I feel extremely confident that if there were strong institutions supporting both pregnant women (young and old) and adoption AND that if the public truly understood that abortion is a selfish act intended to avoid 9 months of uncomfort that abortion would become nominal and most people today, right now, would be appalled and would decry abortion.

Would that it were that easy.
Erin, a girl who posts here, just had an aboriton.
She claims to have no regrets.
Here is a bit of the conversation that took place recently...

Erin Said:

MK- you don't seem to quite understand the cutthroat nature of a business world nor that some women really, really don't like children. In the business world, and also in the world of many performing arts, pregnancy really IS that big of a deal. If you want children, no problem. But a child takes a lot more attention and care than a spouse does- and some people don't want to deal with that. Ever. I, for example, do not like children. They irritate me on a very profound level. I was on an airplane two days ago and this whiny little baby was squalling the entire time. I don't ever want to have one of those.

Some people don't like children. It happens. Who are you to say that just because you like children, everyone should be willing to have them? If I find a kitten at my door, but I don't want a cat, should I take it in anyway? Shouldn't YOU respect the fact that some women never want children, as much as you do?

Bethany- some people just honestly do not want children. Not now, not ever. Some couples don't want to be open to pregnancy- and sterilization is often only approved by physicians after a certain age. Should couples that love each other but do not want to have children keep themselves physically from each other? Yes, birth control can fail. Adoption is an option, but abortion needs to be one too. If you're taking all possible precautions, there needs to be a failsafe. A woman pursuing a high-powered career or intense schooling would not be able to deal with the blow that a pregnancy carried to term could deal on her. Some people don't want children. I understand, Bethany, that you have a very difficult time understanding this because of your considerate attempts to get pregnant right now. My mother went through the same thing before she adopted me. But there are people who whether married or not, cannot deal with the aspect of becoming pregnant or raising a child. It simply isn't in their plans for their life

I replied:

I'm not asking you to raise children, Erin.
I'm asking you to refrain from having sex, OR if you find yourself pregnant then to step up to the plate, give the child it's life and let people who DO want children raise him/her. Would that really destroy any chances you had of a "Power Career"?

And it's funny that you chose the phrase Cut-Throat.
Because that is exactly what abortion is. Cut-Throat. Winner takes all, loser dies. And for what? A part in a play? An office with a window.

One word. Priorities! I suggest you get them in order.

Do you realize Erin that had you not aborted your child, you would now be three months into the pregnancy, 6 more to go. Next St Patricks Day when your drinkin' a beer or watchin' the parade, you remember that right about then you would have been giving birth to a child. And then you could have gone on your merry way and gotten your part in a commercial or bought an airline or whatever this unbelievably important thing is that you just had to do. St. Patricks Day. That's it. March. Wait until you see how fast March comes upon you...6 lousy months..

Her response:
The first thing I want to address is some of the most basic issues that are coming up. What many of you don't seem to understand is that the issues here are not, to me, absolute ones. I have a strong belief in subjective morality. I do not believe that I commited murder or that the abortionist did. I do not believe that the 5 week old fetus had any soul or ability to feel pain. These aren't new beliefs fueled by denial- they're beliefs that I have had for several years now. Are they subject to change? YES. That's what experience is for. Do I think they will change? No. You'll also have to forgive me, but any religious arguments are lost on me. I don't believe in God, and I am quite happy with my own system. If I believed that I had taken a life, committed an act of murder? I would be racked with guilt. But I don't. I'd be happy to have a conversation with anyone who likes on my belief structure, which I know to very strong Christians can come off as callous and amoral.

I'll tackle the adoption issue in my next post, I don't want to get all crazy and make a massive-giganto post and hurt people's heads ;-)

OK, on to the adoption issue. You ladies certainly do keep my on my toes!

Firstly, yes, I was adopted. I was adopted as a two-month old baby in a closed adoption, meaning the records are shut off from both me and my birth parents. I love my adoptive parents and really, see no difference. My mother and father tried all kinds of fertilization treatments for about 5 years before going through the adoption system, which was a long, arduous process for both my adoption and my brother's- my brother is adopted from South Korea. I completely support adoption as an alternative- but many people don't realize that there are more than enough children in the foster care system to supply every parent who wants a child with one and still have many, many children still in the system. It's over crowded, inefficient, and if I hadn't been a white child, I very likely would never have been adopted. You spend a lot of time talking about how a disproportionate number of black women have abortions- you realize that the largest population of unadopted children are black also? They are, for lack of a better term, the least desirable of any minority in terms of adoption. If every woman who has an abortion instead put the child up for adoption, you can't even imagine the conditions our foster care system would be in- and it's already pretty ineffecient and poorly run.

Now don't get me wrong...we love Erin. She's been with us for awhile and we've become friends.

But talk about frustrating!

LaBelleGarce,

Do you regret having your child terminated? just curious.

Posted by: jasper at July 31, 2007 11:39 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, I considered everything before I chose to abort so there's no reason to regret it.

"No, I considered everything before I chose to abort so there's no reason to regret it."

Did consider giving life to that poor baby that you killed? maybe give him up for adoption.

It's mutually frustrating though! Sometimes I just want to shake jasper, for instance. I like to debate with people- I thrive on it. I get bored when everyone agrees with me. It doesn't mean I don't get frustrated too! That's what, to me, makes it fun!

Well she does make a good point about the adoption system...although I would like to have some research along with it. I remember looking at SOME research a while back and found that the adoption system is not near as broken as people make it out to be.

However, branching from that I would like to make both a moral and a practical point. The morality of an action is not affected by side-effects.

Example: The Death Penalty is not immoral because those dealing it out often are racist. The immorality is in the racist dealing of the penalty. In order to attack the Death Penalty then you must attack its logical premises, not its sideeffects.

Abortion is not moral because "who will parent the offspring?"

Think, does it make it moral for a mother to neglect her born child because the adoption agencies are filled? Someone has to be responsible for the indigent at all points, and if there is no adoption agency to speak of, then the parent involved is the only one left.

Now for the practical point. If we do not have the agency to parent these children and remove the responsibility from these "parents" then we will find it hard to get them to drop their actions, even if they should believe it to be immoral. Plenty of people overturn morality in stressed times.

PAS was recognized untill the APA was headed by someone who was tied to the pro-choice political agenda.

Erin, I would look into EMDR. It was *really* good at minimizing the physical symptoms. I did the "tap" therapy, and that seemed to help alot.

Posted by: Lauren at July 31, 2007 01:35 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously I'm not "Erin" but I figured I'd comment on this. I've heard good things about EMDR but it annoyed the heck out of me. I faired better with deliberately triggering my PTSD reactions and sorting out what was behind them.

"PAS was recognized untill the APA was headed by someone who was tied to the pro-choice political agenda."

Neither the APA or the AMA EVER recognized PAS as any bonafide medical condition.... doesn't your Jesus have somethinmg to say about bearing false witness..

"No, I considered everything before I chose to abort so there's no reason to regret it."

Did consider giving life to that poor baby that you killed? maybe give him up for adoption.

Posted by: jasper at July 31, 2007 03:20 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What part of "No, I considered everything before I chose to abort so there's no reason to regret it" did you not understand?

You do know what the word "everything" means ...?

Btw, if I'm going to gestate it's because I want to have a child - not to give it away. Gestating isn't an easy experience for everyone.

Prior to 1994 the (DSM III-R) did list abortion as a "psychosocial stressor" capable of producing some or all of the symptoms of PTSD. Specifically, in Chapter Two, page 20 of that edition, a psychosocial stressor was described to include a "Physical illness or injury: e.g., illness, accident, surgery, abortion.

See Also

Fergusson et al., 2006

and

Broen et al., 2005)

"Btw, if I'm going to gestate it's because I want to have a child - not to give it away. Gestating isn't an easy experience for everyone."

You should have thought about that before you had sex. Just because you are irresponible and selfish, that doesn't give you the right to kill another life. that's why you have PAS now.

"PAS was recognized untill the APA was headed by someone who was tied to the pro-choice political agenda."

Neither the APA or the AMA EVER recognized PAS as any bonafide medical condition.... doesn't your Jesus have somethinmg to say about bearing false witness..

Posted by: DC LawDawg at July 31, 2007 03:55 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exactly.

Some need to learn that it doesn't pay to get your information from biased sources. ;)

"Btw, if I'm going to gestate it's because I want to have a child - not to give it away. Gestating isn't an easy experience for everyone."

I wish that everyone knew that this is the truth behind abortion. I would love to see PP use this as their advertisement.

"Planned Parenthood - Adoption? If *Im* going to gesitate it, Im not giving it away! Choose abortion!"

"Btw, if I'm going to gestate it's because I want to have a child - not to give it away. Gestating isn't an easy experience for everyone."

You should have thought about that before you had sex. Just because you are irresponible and selfish, that doesn't give you the right to kill another life. that's why you have PAS now.

Posted by: jasper at July 31, 2007 04:05 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It appears that you don't know what they say about assuming things.

I was pregnant from rape and I don't have PAS. I have PTSD from rape and years of abuse in my childhood. But thanks for trying to diagnose me when you know absolutely nothing about me.

Prior to 1994 the (DSM III-R) did list abortion as a "psychosocial stressor" capable of producing some or all of the symptoms of PTSD. Specifically, in Chapter Two, page 20 of that edition, a psychosocial stressor was described to include a "Physical illness or injury: e.g., illness, accident, surgery, abortion.

Im guessing you double posted earlier, just in case you missed it the first time.

Go look up the studies I also posted showing abortive women are more likely to be depressed than women who carry to term or were never pregnant.

jasper, watch your assumptions about PTSD.

"Did consider giving life to that poor baby that you killed?"

No babies are killed during an abortion...

"maybe give him up for adoption."

why should women be brood mares for infertile women? There are already many millions of desperate, suffering, breathing, born living children who need a home... why don't you anti choicers start doing something for them before you start directing your concerns towards other people's fetuses?

Why should I have to pay medicaid?

As part of the human society you are obligated to obey certain rules, one of which is the care for indigents.

Oliver,

Exactly the point I was making by sharing Erins post.

6 months of her life, (which was a direct consequence of her actions/choices) was all it would have taken to give her son or daughter a chance at life. But she couldn't do it...the question is why?

We had a looooooong post on here awhile back discussing the foster care/adoption situation and it is just not true that babies are sitting around waiting for families. It is a very small percentage of children that are waiting for homes. Most children in foster care are there because they haven't been relinquished. And black babies are placed just as easily as white babies. These are simply falsehoods that if bought into, feed the idea that it is better to abort.

But the bottom line is, these girls don't want to be pregnant for 9 minutes let along 9 months, so it wouldn't matter if prospective parents were lined up in the delivery room. I don't understand it myself. I can't imagine thinking that I was more important than someones life. But they honestly do. I don't know where this mindset comes from. It's totally foreign to me. Any ideas?

Oliver, what you believe is our obligation we may not agree to. You can't automatically assume that you can make a sweeping generalization about people's obligations and expect everyone to agree with you.

"I was pregnant from rape"

oh, sorry to hear about that and the abuse. that's awful. Did you file a police report when you were raped? did you have him thrown in jail?

good-luck

"Prior to 1994 the (DSM III-R) did list abortion as a "psychosocial stressor" capable of producing some or all of the symptoms of PTSD. Specifically, in Chapter Two, page 20 of that edition, a psychosocial stressor was described to include a "Physical illness or injury: e.g., illness, accident, surgery, abortion."

The APA and the DSM NEVER listed PAS as a medical condition, Gomer...

"Im guessing you double posted earlier, just in case you missed it the first time."

"Go look up the studies I also posted showing abortive women are more likely to be depressed than women who carry to term or were never pregnant."

Those studies are not valid studies... just RTL hypocrite propaganda..

One of the most faulty arguments against abortion is that it causes severe depression and trauma to the mother. Abortion opponents even claim that women may even suffer Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder -- five, ten or even twenty years later. Pamphlets handed out by pro-life protesters at abortion clinics usually start out with lines like "You're hurting."

The experiences of these women are not to be trivialized; most struggle with the decision to have an abortion, and most feel sorrow and regret. But the statistics overwhelmingly refute the claim that these women go on to suffer severe trauma. The predominant response to abortion is relief. This is confirmed by dozens of studies that have researched women's reactions to abortions (for example, Adler, 1975; Burnell, Dworsky, and Harrington, 1972; Lazarus, 1985; Payne, Kravitz, Notman, and Anderson, 1976; and Smith, 1973.) (1)

In one famous study, 90% of the women surveyed said their abortion was the right thing to do. (2)

C. Everett Koop, the Surgeon General under Ronald Reagan, conducted a study that tried to learn everything it could on abortion and concluded that the number of women who suffered from post-abortion trauma was minuscule. (3)

Apparently, a small percentage of women who are hurting in their ordinary lives decide to have abortions, and link any later trauma to this experience, but it is clear that abortion is not the primary source of their problems. As noted psychiatrist Nada Stotland observed, "There is not one piece of evidence for such a syndrome." (4)

Part of the problem with the pro-life claim is that they are misusing the term Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Inevitably, all people experience loss or trauma at some point in their lives. Normally, they go through a period of disorganization, after which the healing process begins.

In a few years they may be back to normal. But in a small percentage of cases, the trauma is unusually severe, and the victims unusually susceptible. PTSD is a well-defined and extreme condition brought on by extreme circumstances, like war, concentration camps, brutal rape, disaster or torture. The symptoms are unmistakably severe: insomnia, anxiety, reliving the nightmare, withdrawal from society, emotional numbness, extreme passivity, even refusal to leave one's house. And these symptoms usually settle in quickly, within weeks of the trauma, and without treatment usually last a lifetime. They do not lie dormant under the surface, to resurface five, ten, or fifteen years later. If someone has PTSD, they will know it beyond all doubt. Fortunately, there are almost no known cases of PTSD attributable to abortion alone.

references

1. Patricia Lunneborg, Abortion: A Positive Decision (New York: Bergin & Garvey, 1992), p. 92, citing Adler, Nancy E., "Emotional Responses of Women Following Therapeutic Abortion," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 45, 1975, 446-454; Burnell, George M., Dworksy, William A., Harrington, Robert L., "Post Abortion Group Therapy," American Journal of Psychiatry 129, 1972, 134-137; Lazarus, Arthur, "Psychiatric Sequelae of Legalized Elective First Trimester Abortion," Journal of Psychosomatic Obstetrics and Gynaecology 4, 1985, 141-150; Payne, Edmund C., Kravitz, Arthur R., Notman, Malkah T., Anderson, Jane V., "Outcome Following Therapeutic Abortion," Archives of General Psychiatry 33, 1976, 725-733; Smith, Elizabeth M., "A Follow-up Study of Women Who Request Abortion," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 43, 1973, 574-585.

2. Henshaw, Stanley K., Martire, Greg, "Abortion and the Public Opinion Polls: Women Who Have Had Abortions," Family Planning Perspectives 14, 1982, 60-62.

3. "More on Koop's Study of Abortion," Family Planning Perspectives 22, 1990, 36-39.

4. "Abortion Refusals Seen as Traumatic," Seattle Times, May 4, 1991, p. A5.

certainly. Alot of these women tell themselves that they are doing a "good" thing by being responsible, even if they know it deep down. The first step is for us to somehow educate the population not just that adoption agencies exist and run better than they say, but that abortion is simply a selfish act from women who do not want to go through 9 months of discomfort.

These women also believe they are not violating any rights. It would be like a parent saying to themselves "well I dont have to feed my 9 month old....its MY money after all!" Unfortunately you have to go through the "9 minutes" or however long to relenquish your child to the proper authorities, and you are still responsible during this time.

The final thought is that the fetus is not a person. This is again a belief with no logical backing. However they want to believe it in order to justify to themselves the action. Ask anyone why a fetus is not a person and they'll go "uh well it doesnt think." They dont even know WHY they believe this, they just do.

"Btw, if I'm going to gestate it's because I want to have a child - not to give it away. Gestating isn't an easy experience for everyone."

I wish that everyone knew that this is the truth behind abortion. I would love to see PP use this as their advertisement.

"Planned Parenthood - Adoption? If *Im* going to gesitate it, Im not giving it away! Choose abortion!"

Posted by: Oliver at July 31, 2007 04:08 PM

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Since I speak for no one but myself - you look rather silly.

I spent 5 1/2 months vomitting when I gestated my first daughter. I was a bit luckier with the second - less actual vomitting just nausea for most of the pregnancy. I wouldn't choose to go through that again just to give it away like a puppy. If you would - that's your choice.

"Fortunately, there are almost no known cases of PTSD attributable to abortion alone."

DC LapDawg,

You're clueless.

No babies are killed during an abortion...

Please tell me you guys are not so far behind in this debate that you actually want to start at the "It's a fetus, stupid, not a baby" stage.

Here let me do it for you.

It's not a baby moron. It's a fetus.

Fetus simply means young one. Look it up.
It's simply a term that means it a young human being.

It can't think or breath on it's own. It's not a human being!

Then what is it? A dog?

It might be a human being, but it' not a person.

Why? What makes someone a person?

They can think, and feel pain you idiot!

Well, lots of people can't think or feel pain due to head injuries or neurological problems. Are they not human?

They don't have to live off of another person like a fetus does. No one has the right to use my body. What if you woke up in bed attached to a violinist that needed your kidney. Would you have to give it to him...?

Blah, blah, blah...

Are we caught up now.?

Sheesh, at least if you guys are gonna play the "We're so much smarter than you stupid Christians" game, come up with some new material! I feel like I'm playing chutes and ladders and I just hit the chute that sends me back to "start"

"I spent 5 1/2 months vomitting when I gestated my first daughter. I was a bit luckier with the second - less actual vomitting just nausea for most of the pregnancy. I wouldn't choose to go through that again just to give it away like a puppy. If you would - that's your choice."

Oh, I see, you killed one unborn baby because you were raped...but you would still kill today even if you weren't raped because of the morning sickness..

Well Jasper,

I asked for something new, and I got it...

Vomiting? Abort!

Okay,
Oliver sounds silly because he suggests that you carry your own son or daughter for nine months...

But you don't look silly when you say you'd rather suck your child through a vacuum hose than give it away like a puppy?

Given the choice, I'm sure the baby would say "Treat me like a puppy, PLEASE!"

Prior to 1994 the (DSM III-R) did list abortion as a "psychosocial stressor" capable of producing some or all of the symptoms of PTSD. Specifically, in Chapter Two, page 20 of that edition, a psychosocial stressor was described to include a "Physical illness or injury: e.g., illness, accident, surgery, abortion.

Im guessing you double posted earlier, just in case you missed it the first time.

Go look up the studies I also posted showing abortive women are more likely to be depressed than women who carry to term or were never pregnant.

Posted by: Oliver at July 31, 2007 04:14 PM

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Actually, I'm on vacation this week (my daughters are off at camp - real camp with scheduled events all day) and only have dial-up at our seasonal camp. If it double posted it was due to the website not coming back up after I posted and my hitting refresh.

Anyway, you can stop telling me that I don't know the origins of my PTSD or how I feel about my abortion. I know exactly when and where my PTSD started and it wasn't from the abortion.

You are aware that abusive people tell others how they feel, right?

"Prior to 1994 the (DSM III-R) did list abortion as a "psychosocial stressor" capable of producing [b]some[/b] or [b]all[/b] of the symptoms of PTSD."

If you are trying to say that PAS, as a term was never used, you are sorely lacking in deriving basic logic. If I need to explain how they are essentially the same thing then I will, but Im hoping its more you missed the word I have in bold.

"Those studies are not valid studies... just RTL hypocrite propaganda.."

The man who did the New Zealand study was pro-choice, looking to discredit PAS, and although remaining pro-choice, now believes post-abortive women should be given more psychological support.

Frankly saying, "oh thats bullshit RTL propaganda" is no response to refute them. I should say "oh thats bullshit pro-choice propaganda and go on my merry way.

I dont know why Im even arguing this because abortion is immoral based on logical derivations of accepted beliefs, not because there is PAS. I dont care if having an abortion has any negative effects. Hell it could make you into millionaire Superman for all I care, it is still immoral.

Jasper,

This is what Rae was trying to tell you the other day. While she is still not "Pro-Life" she is ant-stupidity. She recognizes that if a womans life is on the line, abortion should remain an option, but feels that women who have abortions for reasons like these three (honestly, vomiting?) should NOT be allowed to abort. That's why she got so upset. Instead of recognizing that she had had a complete change of heart, you jumped on her for the small percentage that she was still struggling with...

As far as I'm concerned, you can let rip on the Dawg-belle-and-spinwiddy gang...

"I was pregnant from rape"

oh, sorry to hear about that and the abuse. that's awful. Did you file a police report when you were raped? did you have him thrown in jail?

good-luck

Posted by: jasper at July 31, 2007 04:24 PM

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Thanks but I don't need your false sympathy. Your other post shows exactly how sympathetic you are about my being raped.

Rae is pro-life if the only reasons she feel are credible for abortion are death (or extreme disformity etc), rape, and incest.

Belle - I never said, or hell, even implied that you do not know where your PTSD symptoms come from. Is paranoia one of them?

"I dont know why Im even arguing this because abortion is immoral based on logical derivations of accepted beliefs, not because there is PAS."

That may be your morality based on YOUR religious beliefs, but everyone does not subscribe to YOU morality...

"I dont care if having an abortion has any negative effects. Hell it could make you into millionaire Superman for all I care, it is still immoral."

Only according to you.... we are a free country and everyone does not have to obey your morality or values...

besides, your god loves killing children... and we know that your jesus never says a word in the bible about abortion...

"If you are trying to say that PAS, as a term was never used, you are sorely lacking in deriving basic logic."

Logic has nothing to do with it.... it either lists PAS as a genuine psych condition or it doesn't....

If I need to explain how they are essentially the same thing then I will, but Im hoping its more you missed the word I have in bold."

Cite anywhere in any AMA publication, any APA publication, or anyplace in the DSM that says PAS is a genuine psychological condition.... we'll be waiting, Gomer...

Hah, right, so I can go shoot some random person. Hey its MY beliefs that I can do what I want!

And you are most correct, I base all my argument on my religion, because, you know, the Bible talks so much about abortion and stem cells and all that. Of course I couldnt come up with ideas of my own, because I am a christian after all right?

Youre right MK, its like going all the way back to start with these guys.

Dawg...I used to debate on a board that had many pro-choice 13 year olds, and honestly, they had far superior rationing skills.

Where exactly did I say that I'd abort because of severe morning sickness?

I'll give you all a hint - I didn't. I said that I wouldn't gestate just to give it away like a puppy. You assumed that meant that I'd abort instead.

Btw, as for your other foolish assumptions - I aborted the pregnancy from rape for health reasons not because I was pregnant from rape.

Rae is pro-life if the only reasons she feel are credible for abortion are death (or extreme disformity etc), rape, and incest.

Belle - I never said, or hell, even implied that you do not know where your PTSD symptoms come from. Is paranoia one of them?

Posted by: Oliver at July 31, 2007 04:53 PM

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Go back and read your own comments - I am far from paranoid, you did imply it.

"Laura Dawg,"

WTF is "lauradawg?"

"You mean you suddenly think that I have something to debate/offer?"

You were the one offering to debate me.....

"Before I enter into debate with you I would need some sort of sign that you were serious and not just working out some personal anger issues..."

I'm not angry about anything... anger is something that anti choicers and anti gay Xtians seem to express here...

"Now allow me to add lying to the list..."

Christian hypocrites corner the market on bearing false witness....

"Apparently, that one went right over you head..."

@@ rolling eyes.....

Dawg - Okay, I now realize the calibur of thought issuing forth from you.

The DSM 3 listed abortion as a stressor leading to a possibility of all the symptoms of PSTD.

PAS is the idea that abortion is a stressor leading to a possibility of all the symptoms of PSTD.

The APA published the DSM 3.

Okay now here comes the complicated logic part.

If A(being abortion) implies B(being a stressor) and P(being PAS) implies A(being abortion) then it follows that P must also imply B.

Now couple that really hard thought with the idea that the APA publishes the DSM 3, and we get that the APA, in DSM 3, included PAS as a condition.

LaBelle- would you have kept it otherwise? If you are pregnant from something other than rape, is abortion all right in your mind? I'm trying to figure out if I have an ally here or not.

Oliver- correlation doesn't equal causation...

And I wasn't implying that any of you other lovers are the foes. I heart you all!

"Apparently, that one went right over you head..."

@@ rolling eyes.....

Posted by: DC LawDawg at July 31, 2007 05:09 PM

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They seem to make a lot of assumptions about strangers as well.

Belle - I honestly do not see it, you need to point it out.

To quote you, you said "Since I speak for no one but myself - you look rather silly.

I spent 5 1/2 months [b]vomitting[/b] when I gestated my first daughter. I was a bit luckier with the second - [b]less actual vomitting just nausea[/b] for most of the pregnancy. [b]I wouldn't choose to go through that again just to give it away like a puppy.[/b] If you would - that's your choice.[/b]"

You have stated here that if you were pregnant, and did not want to parent the child, you would abort, citing vomiting in your first pregnancy and just a general nausea in your second, as your motivation.

In summary, that you would rather not go through with sickness if you did not want to keep the child.

Erin, Im sure she is on your side and would have an abortion if it suited her. Shes throwing the "rape" excuse around to make us go "oh gosh...Im so sorry." While I am sorry if she was truly raped, it doesnt mean anything to the abortion debate seeing that rape comprises less than 1% of abortion cases, and that I personally am conflicted on the issue in regards to abortion anyways.

Im not here to change rape induced abortion. Im here to stop women from the selfish killing of fetuses for the sake of vomiting etc.

LaBelleGrace,

I'm so sorry to hear of your being the victim of such a despicable crime.

Oliver- one of the things that YOU are going to need to learn is that we do try to respect each other here at least. I bet if men had to carry babies, they'd be aborting too. Be nice.

I meant no disrespect with my statement. I was being direct and honest. I do feel sorry for her, but it holds no weight in the debate over abortion between the pro-life side and pro-choice.

Erin, explain to me why you feel that a fetus has no rights, and what do you believe grants rights to any human over any other thing in the universe?

Im sure men would abort even more fetuses.

LaBelle- would you have kept it otherwise? If you are pregnant from something other than rape, is abortion all right in your mind? I'm trying to figure out if I have an ally here or not.

Posted by: Erin at July 31, 2007 05:14 PM

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I'm Pro-Choice simply because without bodily autonomy we have nothing. It's a legal issue to me.

The only reasons that I would abort are health, rape/incest/abuse, or severe fetal deformities. But no one need live by my personal beliefs.

In the case of rape, I can't say that I would definitely abort again since the circumstances today would be different.

Belle explain then why the rights to privacy and property are not as important as bodily autonomy?

Why is a parent subject to sacrifice their rights to property and privacy to care for their child, yet a pregnant mother is not required to sacrifice bodily autonomy for the sake of her child?

Heath4life: >>you can't PROVE that PAS doesn't exist.

Either it's recognized as a syndrome or it is not. It's not.

Now of course some women suffer some post-traumatic stress after having abortions, same as some women who give birth do. It's prevalent enough and the symptoms are often severe enough for those who give birth that it is recognized as a syndrome.

There is no guarantee that a person will not have regrets, on balance, regardless of which choice they make. That's just a fact, and it's no reason to take away the freedom women have in the matter of abortion nor in the matter of willingly continuing pregnancies.

Belle why did you then say you would abort for vomiting if you did not want to keep the fetus?

These are the sorts of abortion that are unnessecary. Every parent must in part lose their rights to the degree required to care for their children.

LaBelleGrace,

I'm so sorry to hear of your being the victim of such a despicable crime.

Posted by: Mary at July 31, 2007 05:33 PM

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Thank you Mary. :)

LaBelle,

Sorry about your rape. I meant it.

Doug - No, but that the choices they make neglect inept members of our society they are responsible to does make it so that their "choice" should be revoked.

Oliver: >>Why is a parent subject to sacrifice their rights to property and privacy to care for their child, yet a pregnant mother is not required to sacrifice bodily autonomy for the sake of her child?

Good question. A born child can suffer, is mentally aware, has emotions, begins having relationships, etc. We attribute personhood at birth, and there's a lot of historical precedent behind that. It doesn't *have* to be that way, but it is that way.

A born child is also not inside the body of a person, and that too makes a big difference. The parents of the born child aren't giving up bodily autonomy, either.

If there was sufficient opinion for having abortion be illegal, it would be, but there's not. There isn't much argument for having it be legal to kill born children, so the differences between the born and the unborn, especially the unborn as far as "elective" abortion in the US, make a good bit of difference to lots of people.

There is something wrong with a society that is so hell-bent on killing their own children. These pro-choicers are illogical. It goes against your nature to kill your own children - mothers are supposed to protect their children. All of these pro-choicers, honestly, you sound like