Jill,

First I must ask you what was the point of posting this article?

When I get an answer I shall reply...

"... how many mothers abort babies because they are mixed race?"

What a retarded question.... unless of course your still making a case for abortion as racial genocide, and inadvertently a racist case against mixed race couples.

The real irony is that Asian Indians are in fact Caucasian people, i.e. they're white. So too are Arabs, Jews, Pakistanis, Afghans, Iranians, and other supposedly "non-white" people. Caucasian covers a very wide range of skin color, from very dark to very light, and skin color is never a sole indicator of any racial group. I think this child is more mixed ethnicity than she is mixed race.

I'm really not understanding the point... I don't think there's an "epidemic" of women rushing to abort bi-racial babies. I don't think it's really even an "issue".

May I air my horrid racial stereotype?

I think mixed-race people tend to be smarter and more beautiful.
I've worked in the veterinary/agricultural/animal control industry for 25 years, and my personal experience is that any time you outcross you end up with a stronger, smarter, healthier hybrid (mutts), and any time you "line-breed" you end up with some SERIOUSLY flawed results.
Americans and Aussies are a nice example. All assimilated muttlings, and good people.
For God's sake, would you prefer that your children marry people like Tiger Woods or Halle Berry, or perhaps marry any member of the FRIGHTENINGLY inbred British Royal Family?
(Do you know why Mormons keep such extensive geneological records? Their own tradition of polygamy and a very shallow gene pool let to a hugely disproportionate rate of Downs syndome and congenital deafness within their community.)

Lyssie-
don't be so sure. I'm sure there are several women who feel pressure to abort when they are carrying a child of mixed race. My grandfather, bless his heart (he passed away many many many years ago), was a racist. He'd roll over in his grave if he knew some of his white granddaughters married black men. My mom tells me stories of not being allowed to go to a concert where multiple bands were playing because one of the bands was a "black band"

This Lowri Turner sounds like one very shallow dame. I mean dahhhh, what did she expect her child to look like when her husband is Indian? Lowri, your child is not mixed race, she is as causasian as you and your sons are. You should take tremendous pride in your daughter and be very thankful for her, as well as encourage her to have pride in her different heritages.
You know something Lowri, my daughter is as Scandanavian looking as they come, you know, like your sons, and her life has been devastated by mental illness and the rejection and hatred by others that her behavior has generated. Looks mean nothing. Take your snivelling self centeredness elsewhere else. She whines about people having prejudices. Hey, welcome to the real world Lowri. People always have, and always will have prejudices. Talk to Black Americans who survived life in the Jim Crow south. I loathe people like this woman, she needs to talk to mothers who truly have something to cry about.

That was harsh, Mary. Never thought you had it in you!

But anyway, I kind of understand Lowry's fears, however unnecessary and irrational they are. She'll get over it.

Laura,

You've right. Mixed race children are usually more attractive. They seem to have the best features of both races.

Stephanie,

Good to see you back. Its been a while or have I just been missing where you're posting? Obviously I have a huge issue with people who have to look for reasons to feel sorry for themselves. This woman desperately needs to talk to people who truly have problems, as well as women and mothers who would happily trade places with her in a minute.

Not to be too PC, but think all races have cute children.

Sorry about your daughter Mary, is there any medications that can help her?

"I didn't think of myself as racist and yet my daughter has shown me a side of myself about which I feel deeply uncomfortable...."

That is not a refreshingly candi look, it's deeply disturbing. I can't imagine such a way to think about your child. I have two mixed raced daughters and I never once felt uncomfortable looking at them. They are as much me as they are their mother. And, more importantly, they are unique individuals who light up the world. This woman has some serious race issues.

I agreee with Hal. Subconsciously, that woman is hard core racist.

she sounds like she's uncomfortable in her own skin.

Hal,

I am not saying this to point a finger at you but to try to help you understand the way we think...

That is not a refreshingly candid look, it's deeply disturbing. I can't imagine such a way to think about your child

Can you see that from our point of view, you saying that you can't believe anyone could feel this way about their child sounds incredibly hypocritical? We can't believe anyone could feel the way you did about your two aborted children.

I know you don't see it that way, and that's not why I'm posting this. What I'm trying to say is that the outrage you feel about this mothers feelings about her daughter, while completely justified, reflect the exact same feelings that we have about people who abort their own children.

So the next time we (Jasper and Hisman esp.) come across as extreme or harsh, remember how you felt when you read the above post, and understand that we are overwhelmed with grief and anger and it just comes pouring out. Not saying that's right either, just offering an insight.

Perhaps families that came together in marriage and created a biracial child might not abort, but what about women who are raped by men of a different race. Do you think that would make any difference in whether or not they would abort?

in some ways if seeing one race as being a handicap, then I assume abortion would align itself with eugenics. However, I have a very hard time considering a lover as handicapped because of race. [Any issue would be partly of-this-lover a non-impeded person.] Such does not even make sense as a 'reason' to abort.

there may be one case - my sister's friend was fooling around outside her all-white marriage with a black man. She aborted to cover-up her transgressions.

MK: "Can you see that from our point of view, you saying that you can't believe anyone could feel this way about their child sounds incredibly hypocritical?"

Yes, MK, if fact I almost wrote something along those lines. I do understand. You guys can't imagine people who support abotions, don't regret their abortions, etc. You get outraged (probably more than I feel for this mother) at what we did and support. To you, I would think, our abortions are a lot worse than this mother who sees the race of her daughter as something strange and foreign.

i'm starting to get a little uncomfortable around here.. i'm mixed race and this much discussion of abortion vis a vis color kinda scares me.

Hal, Roaie and Erin,

I responded to you earlier but my post never went through! I am definitely with all of you on this one. This is a woman who should be be thankful to have a normal, healthy daughter, who should teach her daughter pride in her heritages and herself, and should teach her daughter that prejudice and bigotry are ignorance and the fault of people who are bigoted and prejudiced, not her daughter's fault for being who she is. Most important, she should have a mother who stands beside her daughter with pride and support, not the self pitying whiner she has instead. Hal, it sounds like your daughters have been blessed with just such parents.

Jasper,

Thank you for your concern. My daughter suffers from borderline personality disorder, which is difficult to almost impossible to treat, and is very often misdiagnosed. There are a few therapists who specialize in treating it but the BPD must realize they have a problem and be commited to treatment. That's the tricky part. You can google for more extensive info. While not legally insane, BPDs are mentally ill and will be irrational, violent, and self destructive. They can also have lucid periods. For the most part they can function, and you can encounter these people and never know it. I discovered my daughter's diagnosis through my own research and in doing so determined my father had the same disorder. I am thankful I know what is wrong with her. I haven't seen her for 3 years and I am not even certain where she is anymore. When I see what crosses other parents have to bear, it definitely puts it in perspective for me.

I know I may have sounded harsh and angry earlier. An 18y/o girl near our city, who was about to graduate, was hit by a drunk driver while walking on the side of the road. She is now a respirator dependent quadraplegic. I have been following her family's posts on her progress which include finally being able to tolerate sitting in a wheelchair, to relearning to speak, to just going outdoors. One can only imagine their heartbreak, but never do you read a negative word or an iota of self pity. I had just read the latest post when I read Lowri's snivelling. I'm afraid it just sent me over the edge. As I said, Lowri desperately needs to talk to mothers who really have something to cry about.

MK,

Concerning sexual assault. The white woman raped and impregnated by a black man or "a drunken Indian" was often used for its emotional appeal when arguing for abortion. I believe a group of doctors used that appeal, a black man raping a white woman, when trying to persaude former Georgia governor, the late Lester Maddox, a staunch segregationist, to support legal abortion.
Not surprisingly, no similar "concern" was ever expressed for a black or Indian woman raped by a white man, drunk or otherwise.

Exactly Mary,

So while I doubt that the above scenario (with Jordan Sparks) could be a common reason to abort, I could see some scenarios where aborting due to race would definitely be a factor. In this case, I would expect even hard core pro-choicers to be upset. No?

Hal,

Thank you for being so understanding.

All arguments for abortion aside, if this was a website debating about a new law that said all children, up to the age of five could be killed by their parents and doctor because they had become inconvenient, I know that you and all the other pro-choicers here(excluding Diana, who would say that if the 5 year old required the mothers body to live it would still be okay) would be livid.

We cannot, don't and won't differentiate between the unborn and a two year old. With this frame of reference in mind, it should be easier to understand why some of us can get sooooo loopy!

We try really hard to hear you guys, respect the fact that you have a differing opinion, don't see these unborn babies as persons and believe that you are standing up for women. Sometimes tho, for some of us more than others, it becomes too much and we just "blow".

On the other hand, we have to remember that coming from your point of view, it must be hard to hear us calling you heartless, murderers and "evil". I know that what we mean is abortion is heartless, murder and evil, but it doesn't always come across that way. I can't apologize for everyone, but as for myself, I imagine is must be hard to sincerely believe that you are a good person that made a tough choice only to be called horrible and satanic.

Don't misunderstand this. I believe that abortion is the greatest evil to ever plague this earth and the numbers that are being performed these days are putting the world in some serious jeopardy. But there is a difference between believing that something is wrong and doing it anyway, and doing something that while wrong, you believe is right.
It's the culpability factor.

Does that make any sense at all?

Hi Mary,

I looked up BPD and one of the medications is Depakote (Ironically, the same drug my son has to take for his seizure disorder), but you're correct, very often the BPD patient denies the they have the condition and does not recieve the counseling. I hope one day your daughter returns and recieves the help she needs -God Bless.

MK,
Of course, you make absolute sense. Almost always do. And since Hal for the most part keeps his cool on his posts, it definitely works in his favor.

But it still bugs me...ever since I learned of Hal and his beloved terminating 2 of their little ones within their marriage union, well, it leaves me at a loss for words sometimes. I mean, one can almost understand the dating couple who finds themselves pregnant with no other commitment than lust, but when the little one is conceived within the context of a sacrament (in this case matrimony) and is rejected... whoa. And I understand that all this sacrament talk holds no bearing for him and others in the lineup, just trying to point out something beyond the baseness of our self-love.

Culpability. Funny little word, yet it holds so much weight.

Hi Mary,

Yeah, I'm kind of back. I'm sorry I post so sporatically, but I do get pretty busy with work and summer class so I never get to post enough to hang with the regulars!

I hope your daughter is doing ok.

John McDonnell,
Are you a priest or a member of the clergy?

Hi grasshoppas.

Jill was exposing a mindset. The same "choice" mindset that can question any characteristic of a baby before it is born is a mindset that can kill the baby as well. This is why the "choice" mindset is inherently evil. It screws with God's intent, and not one of us has the right to interfere with God's intent.

Wax on, wax off.

I think that aborting a child fathered by a black man for example, is not unheard of. This would be especially the case if the mother is a young white woman still living at home and where the parents are involved. In my prolife work I have heard of situations where this has been the case and the young mother is forced to undergo an abortion. How common it is, I just wouldn't know.
I would also like to comment on this mother who I think has some serious issues that need to be professionally addressed (as in counselling). The father of my children is Italian/Maltese and they are quite dark as many Maltese have Middle Eastern blood in them so to speak. I am French/Italian but I am very fair. My children are quite dark, with very dark hair, black eyes except for my middle girl who is dark skinned but has fair hair and hazel eyes! I consider my children to be very beautiful and every person who has met them comments similarly. I would never think like this woman. She should be thankful her child has been given the gift of beauty and is presumably healthy.

Hi Carder,

have to laugh at your comment about me being a priest .... 'cause I was asked to leave the seminary since the prognosis for my rare genetic disease was not good. But I have instructed a group ... some of them lay-deacons-to-be in the fundamentals of our faith.

this disease has brought me face-to-face with pro-life argumentation - both its strengths and weaknesses. If these don't work - I'm dead meat!

On behalf of the crew here I'd like to extend to you a warm welcome. I've read many of your posts before and they were superbly lucid. Sure hope you keep them coming!

Midnite, 10:47a, asked: "First I must ask you what was the point of posting this article?"

Midnite, my post was my point. No ulterior motive. One paragraph in Turner's piece really struck me: "As for myself, there is an inescapable status issue to address. White women who have non-white children are stigmatised as 'Tracy Towerblocks' living on benefits, most of which they spend on lager and fags."

Wow. Racial prejudice harshly outted. And if racial prejudice is alive and well, how many mothers of mixed-race babies abort them for fear of family or social ramifications?

... which, btw, makes my question quite un-"retarded," Camardo, 10:53a.

Stephanie and Jasper,

Thank you both for your concern and kind words.

Stephanie, its nice to hear from you when you can post. I can remember how busy summers used to be with classes and work (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away), in other words, its been a few years since I was in school. That expression came from "Star Wars" in case you have never seen the movie. Good luck to you on your schooling.

Jasper,

Most BPD drug therapy is experimental. Low dose anti psychotic drugs are also being experimented with. These are people who have to be committed to long term therapy, even then you are dealing with faulty brain wiring and success rates are low and variable. BPDs are often misdiagnosed as bipolar or depressed. My daughter was. Ususally with therapy BPDs will only learn to cope with and better handle their symptons at best, depending on the severity of their symptoms. It is a very tragic disorder.
I'm very sorry to hear of your son's seizure disorder and hope he is doing well. I have heard that depakote is very effective for seizure control. I also read one time of a high fat diet that worked very well though I'm sure you are far better informed on this subject than I am.

Patricia,

Your family sounds beautiful and you are indeed blessed. Most important, unlike Lowri Turner, you appreciate how truly blessed you are.

Michael, 4:19p, said: "i'm starting to get a little uncomfortable around here.. i'm mixed race and this much discussion of abortion vis a vis color kinda scares me."

Michael, you're pro-"choice," right? You can't pick which aspect of choice you're comfortable and uncomfortable with.

Mary,

I don't know if you have read this before, but my oldest son has bi-polar. I was like Shirley Maclaine in terms of endearment. They kept saying it was drug addiction, and I kept saying it was that but MORE. Finally I lost it and they took closer look...sure enough. He was hospitalized at the time. Kept trying to kill himself by overdosing on recreational drugs...He would disappear for days at a time...it was the worst time of my life.

He now takes depakote and a cocktail of other meds, including something (the name escapes me now) that is meant to treat narcolepsy. The insurance won't cover it because it hasn't been approved for alternative uses. He uses it to control his ADHD. The difference when he is taking either drug and when he is not boggles the mind.

The beauty of it, is that we are sooooo close now. He didn't fight treatment, accepts our help, attends AA, got married and is about to give me my second grandchild.

I was adopted and after searching for 3 years, I found my birthmom. After hearing childhood stories from my birthsister about my birthmother, I suggested that maybe she too suffered from bi-polar. We got her tested and the psychiatrist confirmed my suspicions. But he added that she suffered from BPD also. As well as ADHD and a few other savory illnesses.

She, unlike my son, refused to accept the diagnosis and now lives alone. She no longer communicates with my birthsister or myself. It's so sad. She is convinced that I was able to call up a random doctor in Minnesota (a place that up until then I had never been) and convince him that she had these diseases. No amount of reasoning or cajoling could change her mind and it looks like she'll live out her days a bitter and lonley old woman. So sad.

We'd make a great case study for genetic predisposition to these illnesses, because obviously it wasn't environmental as my son has never met the woman.

My heart goes out to you. I'll be praying for you and your daughter. Anything is possible with the man upstairs...

Bless you both,
MK

Michael,

"i'm starting to get a little uncomfortable around here..

Welcome to our world.

John McD,

Well, I wasn't too far off the bullseye. The fact you attended seminary confirmed my happy suspicions. Which means I can mention Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross here and someone will actually know what I'm talking about. And of course, dear Edith Stein, which I offered to Diana for obvious reasons.

Peace.

Has anyone else read or seen the movie "A Time to Kill" Its about the 8 year old black girl who gets raped and beaten by two drunk white men. The girl's father is outraged because he's well aware the two men won't serve much time, if any. (I can't remember what time period the movie takes place in, but it isn't present time). He ends up waiting in the courtroom with a shotgun. When the two white men are walking out of the courtroom, because they weren't charged with anything, the father shoots and kills them both. The whole movie is about his trial for murder of the two men. His lawyer and the man are going for guilty by reason of insanity. (don't worry, if you are interested in the movie I only ruined the first 20 minutes or so) Its a very good film, with actors Sandra Bulock, Matthew Mcconaughey and Samuel L Jackson. The book is great too. It's by John Grisham.

MK,

I was only vaguely aware of the problems your son had. It must have been terrible and I am so pleased to hear how well he is doing. Exceptionally well. How wonderful for you, him, and your entire family. Yes, parents all too often have to be persistent when they know that something is wrong. I also encourage doing your own research. That is the only way I found any answers.
How tragic about your birthmother. I'm afraid though her behavior is very typically BPD. Your birthmother has only a limited capacity for rational thought so its useless to try to reason with her. You simply have to accept the decision she has made and leave her alone. Even when I knew where my daughter worked I stayed out of her life. I was afraid if she saw me she could explode into a rage and lose her job and totally blow apart her fragile stability. They will typically perceive themselves as victims, as your mother does and as my daughter always did. ADHD and depression are often present in this disorder and may lead to a missed diagnosis. The fact that your son is doing so well would strongly suggest he is not BPD.
Yes MK, we are definitely a study in genetics. NO one will ever convince me personality disorders and other forms of mental illness are not hereditary. I am convinced my sister is Narcissistic PD, very closely related to BPD, and I have some very serious concerns about my nephew's daughter and hope I am very wrong.
But mostly MK I am so thankful to have an answer. Like you I knew something was seriously wrong. I know what to expect and what to never hope for. I'm sure some of the relatives continue to cluck about her, she did behave outrageously, but I can't help that. I am also thankful to have the caring, supportive friends I have on this blog. You are all truly a blessing.

Thanks Mary,

It's funny. When we both started blogging here, you were on my case for always using religion and I couldn't fathom how you could possibly be pro-life without any faith.

Of all the lessons I have learned on this site, I think the ones I've learned from you have been the most valuable and had the most impact. I always check to see if you've posted something new. While I'll always be praying that someday you'll find God, from where I'm sitting, God has obviously found you. You have an enormous heart.

I too am grateful for your friendship...if nothing else, us old ladies have go to stick together.

JM, did you get moved okay?

Thank you Mary - if only my ex had felt that way. He left me with 4 children under the age of 8! Many single moms might consider 4 children to be quite a burden, but I am blessed that I was open to having children - they are a comfort to me and keep me too busy for self-pity.

Good Morning MK,

Your kind words mean so much and I thank you. What a wonderful way to start my morning! I hope I never came across as being on your case for using religion to support your arguments. Do you have me confused with someone else? If I ever have I sincerely apologize. While I am on the fence concerning religion or agnosticism I do not consider myself a non-believer, just someone uncertain of what I believe. I thank you for your thoughts and prayers. I respect anyone's right to base their arguments on their religious or non-religous beliefs and I personally have no issue with anyone for doing so. Its just my personal preference to not get into religious discussions or debates as I find these go on forever and resolve nothing. If other people want to that's fine with me, but I'll sit it out.
I think if anything MK, our heartaches with our own children show that pro-life people are not immune and contrary to popular misconception we do not support the pro-life cause from a position of perfect children and blissful lives.

heather4life-
I did get moved okay. I appreciate you asking, thanks.

Its pretty hot down here in good ole Arizona! I hear its suppose to start cooling down in the next month. By cooling down I mean it'll be mid 90's instead of mid 100's. hehe

Hi JM,

I never saw that movie but I did see ads for it. I'm sure the time frame was the early to mid-twentieth century. You may be interested in the book or the movie "To Kill A Mockingbird" about a white southern lawyer's attempt to defend a black man accused of raping a white woman. The movie was filmed aroung 1962 if I'm correct. I remember that era and that was considered a very controversial subject. The movie you are posting about would have been unheard of. "To Kill a Mockingbird" so well displays the segregation, injustice, and daily humiliations Black Americans endured.
That is why I responded so angrily to Lowri Turner's snivelling about being the supposed victim of prejudice. This lady doesn't have a clue about what enduring real prejudice is about!

I love "To Kill a Mockingbird"...it's literally the only "classic" novel that I've ever enjoyed reading (ok...only classic novel besides "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest") and have read multiple times. I also really liked the movie because Gregory Peck is amazing. It was a brilliant movie.

I've been meaning to see "A Time To Kill" only because Kiefer Sutherland is in it and I'm a big Kiefer-fan. :)

Sorry, but ah, many young black kids today are just punks, there's no other way to put it.

http://www.wlwt.com/news/13672038/detail.html

That's an interesting generalization Jasper. Do you think it is just because of their race or possibly because of their socioeconomic status?

It has nothing to do with their race, it has to do with the breakdown of the black family. Studies have show that when the family stays together, kids have a better chance of being responsible, black or white.

But why do you suppose black families have a lower tendency of breaking apart Jasper?

You 2, this is a good question. I have often wondered the same thing. I hope you 2 are having a good Sunday!

MK, are you present? I wanted to ask you a ?.

@Heather: I'm having a delightful Sunday...though I have been forgetting to take my meds the past few days so I'm going through a bit of withdrawal, which sucks and for some reason the kitchen smells of cauliflower which is icky.

How is your Sunday?

Lowri should worry about more important things. How about world hunger, homelessness, and incurable diseases for starters?

Rae,

This, I believe is why:
http://www.blackconservative.net/TeenPreg.html

Rae, I hear ya. I was having dinner with friends last night, and the topic of antidepressants came up. I have tried them in the past, but they all made me feel loopy! I literally knew of people who attempted suicide on them. I know that the doctors try to find what works best, but some of these meds have brutal side effects. I gave up. I do feel so much better without them. I just take my "blue moods" in stride. Please note; If someone feels better on antidepressants, good for them. They just weren't for me.

Hi Heather

@Jasper: That's not what I was asking. I don't care what other people think. I want to know what YOU think about the reason you suppose black families have a tendency to break down. You tell me why YOU think it happens.

@Heather: The meds did help me, they really did, but I am purposely stopping them to try a different method of treating my problems. I do agree though, meds aren't for everybody but they truly do help some people (like my mum).

Hi Jasper. I live near the inner city. I have noticed an increase in black on black crime. One of my good friends is black. She grew up in a household of 10 children. No father was present. She told me that her mother had to feed the family ketchup sandwiches sometimes. They were poor. She did have some felony convictions in her past, but she managed to straighten up. However, 2 of her brothers are in prison.

@Heather: And why do you think that is? Why do you think that blacks are more likely to commit a crime (statistically) and why do you think black families fall apart?

Rae, I really don't know. I kind of put that out there just as a conversation piece. Although I just read Jasper's link.

@Rae, I was able to find one good antidepressant though...Celexa. It worked well with very few side effects.

Rae,

I believe when any young man has disipline, they do well. My military unit was 80% black and most of them were fantastic soldiers.

well, I agree with the article Rae. I realize there is institutional racism in some companys, any company that does this is disgraceful.

The release of large numbers of young men from the bonds and disciplines of marriage and family, always leads to a threat to social stability. Men
find structure and purpose and become responsible men through marriage and work. Without a stable family order, in which adult men civilize the young men, terror necessarily rules. No array of daycare centers, police powers, social welfare
agencies, psychiatric or drug clinics, special schools and prisons, can have any significant effect. When men are deprived of any family role and robbed of male discipline, they will turn to the perennial male equalizers, that is, greater physical strength and aggression.

So Jasper, why do you think men abandon their families and don't take the responsibility of being a stabilizing force of a family?

Rae,

I think George Will and Shelby Steele who is black, answer this better than I can.

The dehumanizing denial that blacks have sovereignty over their lives became national policy in 1965, when President Lyndon Johnson said: "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line in a race and then say, 'You are free to compete with all the others'." This, Steele writes, enunciated a new social morality: No black problem could be defined as largely a black responsibility. If you were black, you could not be expected to carry responsibilities equal to others'.

So, being black conferred "an almost reckless moral authority," a "power of racial privilege." The "power to shame, silence and muscle concessions from the larger society" was black power. The demand for equal rights became a demand for "the redistribution of responsibility for black advancement from black to white America, from the 'victims' to the 'guilty'."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12995478/site/newsweek/

now, maybe you tell us your thoughts Rae as well....

I'm not sure what I think, really. I have not studied the problem enough nor do I really know of all of the problems because I'm from white-bread Minnesota. Plus, I'm young and not that well acquainted with the world, which is more or less why I'm asking you all. Does that make sense?

Yes, Rae, it does.

...I think you are quite knowledgable for your age though...

Eh. I hope to do a bit more checking into it if I get the chance. I really should try reading up on it a bit more before I start spouting off my views. I'm really not that terribly knowledgeable on many things, and this is a painful reminder every time I go to work at my lab and my PCR doesn't turn out and I have no answer as to why it's not working! Eep!

I have a TV show on in my living room. It's about incarcerated men. One of the CO's said that people who live in poverty can commit crimes out of desperation. I sometimes think it's a vicious circle for some. Poverty = drug dealing, burglary, armed robbery, etc. which leads to incarceration. After the inmate is released, he is expected to get a job. A lot of places won't give your application a second glance if you admit to a crime. So, the cycle begins again. The person returns to a life of crime.

@Heather: I think that's also part of the problem, and it really is unfortunate. However, I'm completely at a loss of how to even go about correcting those problems...

Patricia,

I'm so sorry to hear of your difficulty and wish you and your children the best. It sounds like your husband is the biggest loser here, not you. At the risk of sounding trite, the day may come when you'll be thankful he left because something bigger and better has come of your life and your children's. I certainly hope so anyway. In the meantime I'm glad you have such a wonderful family and I wish you and your children the very best.

Mary-
I have indeed read To Kill a Mockingbird as well as the movie. Did you know there are a lot similarities between the book and the authors life. When she was a little girl she grew up while the Scootsbro trials were happening. Several black men were accused of raping two white women. Its a great book a classic

@Rae. I had to go and get a nap. I just read your post. I agree. If you have done your time for your crime, society ought to give you a fair shot to get ahead. [I am excluding crimes of violence] I think this could be another reason for less fathers in the home. That could go for both black and white men.

Mary, I second MK's post! I'm so glad you stayed on the blog!

Heather4life,

Well thank you. I am frankly addicted to this blog and I learn so much. Everyone is just wonderful and I think very genuinely concerned about each other. MK's kind remarks started my day out right and yours are keeping it going right! Thank you again.
By the way, concerning lack of fathers in the home, I suspect if these young men, whatever color they were, had to work 2 or 3 jobs to support the children they helped produce instead of dumping them on the taxpayer, they would be more strongly inclined to keep their pants zipped.

JM,

No in fact I didn't. Thank you for the info. I never read the book but the movie was certainly a great classic.

Jasper and Rae,

You may both want to google Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell. These men are black conservatives with some very interesting opinions and perspectives on the lives and history of Black Americans. I've learned so much that you will never read or hear anywhere else.

Mary, How true..LOL!

I love this quote you had for Rae - "jasper at July 15, 2007 01:03 PM"

if you change the phrasing a wee bit, it seems to fit right-in with Cam's logic ... the new "victim's" are pregnant women (the body autonomy bit) ... lot's of distress ... pregnancy is now shunned - Cam ends pregnancy & so what about the fetus (he says).

@Mary: I have read some of Thomas Sowell's pieces for that ideology political science class I took last year and I think he has an interesting perspective. It's been about a year since I read some of his stuff, but I did write a paper about his ideology (which is considered neoliberalism, which is more or less libertarianism) though unfortunately I'm not sure where that paper is or really what it was about...

Rae,

I think the problems are complex. You were right to say that economics plays a great role...but I think it goes deeper than that.

When Alyssa was telling us about helping her friend get an abortion and we were all on her about that not being real help, one of the things that we meant was that by "helping" her get an abortion, she was also saying that she didn't believe her friend had what it took to do the job and raise her child.

In the same way, when we dole out welfare and have affirmative action, we are in essence telling these people that we don't think they have what it takes to do it on their own.

I honestly think that racists, once they realized the slavery gig was up, came up with new ways to cripple the black man. They created a system, where being an equal was next to impossible. Sure, they said, "you're free", but you'll never be free. We will make sure of that. Look how many liquor stores are in a black neighborhood compared to your own. Or when we complain because PP is targeting the poor and the black. All of these things conspire to keep the black man "in his place"...which is basically anywhere we aren't!

It's like by "giving" them free medicine, and welfare and scholarships we have taken away their dignity. No one wants handouts, even if they think they do. A sense of well being comes from earning what you have, and we have made sure that it would be nigh impossible for the young black man to do this.

Plus, once black women were taught that "sex" outside of marriage was a good thing, they began to give it away. The same thing happens with you guys, the only difference is, you have a shot at making it work out. You can get a job. You've gotten an education. But when these girls get pregnant, the fathers, already feeling like life is all about handouts, take the sex and shirk the responsibilities. This is why we get so up in arms about PP targeting the black communities.

It's just one more nail in a coffin filled with men and women that have no real pride, no hope and no sense of tomorrow.

Mary,
Were your daughter's emotional symptoms evident in infancy/early childhood? What was she like as a little girl? When did you notice that her instability was more than just a "phase"?

Man, if Alveda King could read these posts!

Hi Carder,

These are what I believe to be her early symptoms. Its easy to see how they can be easily missed in children.
As a toddler and child, she was very impulsive and totally fearless, often engaging in risky behavior like running into the street. As a toddler she was defiant and never had an object like a stuffed animal or blanket that she cuddled.
As a child she was unempathetic and hurtful to people. Most significant Carder were sleep disorders, a common trait in children who will develop BPD. Her bed wetting which persisted to 5th grade and horrifying night terrors that persisted to early adulthood. We would often find her asleep in our bed or on our bedroom floor and she remained fearful of sleeping in rooms with mirrors, open closets, and just being alone. As a young adult she would stay up almost all nite so as not to be alone in her room in the dark, falling asleep on the couch. One might take any of what I have mentioned and see it as normal childhood phases and it might be for some children, but in retrospect I see them as early signs of trouble where my daughter was concerned.
Other than this she was a fairly normal child, had friends, and did well in school.
Approaching adolescense her social difficulties began. This is typical for BPDs, and more severe symptoms will usually manifest in adolescense and early adulthood. She began complaining of feeling so empty inside. She also became repulsed by any displays of affection to her. In 9th grade she began injuring herself, carving in her arm with a dull screwdriver. I got her into therapy and she was misdiagnosed with depression and medicated. The therapist just ended sessions and left us hanging.
Her behavior, and physical upkeep deteriorated, in fact you can see it when you look at her pictures as she grew up. Her social difficulties continued, she could never keep friends. She had screaming rages, bizarre behavior and dress, "magical thinking" caught up in a fantasy world, blurting out inappropriate and bizarre comments. She could have lucid periods but they never lasted. She was also becoming more impulsive, violent, hateful, angry, and explosive. She was also more deceitful and conniving. BPDs can also be sociopathic which I am convinced she is. At this point I was convinced something neurologically was wrong with her. I was fearful of taking her to another therapist, plus she wouldn't cooperate, since I felt her previous therapy and medication had been completely botched and I am highly wary of psychiatry and their drugs. It turns out my fears were well founded since this disorder is frequently misdiagnosed, pts are inappropriaely medicated, and there are few therapists with the credentials to treat BPD. I happened to stumble onto info about personality disorders and researched it from there. I spent hours on the computer and when I was done could only say "Thank God I finally have an answer".
Its been 3 years since she left home and I am no longer certain where she is. She did have a job and a boyfriend, but stability for her is highly fragile. I know she will only "love" me when it will suit her purpose, i.e. she needs something, so I will be wary of any "change" in her. She wants absolutely nothing to do with our family.
I hope this has been helpful to you. I tried to condense it as best I can.

Rae,

You may also want to read the articles by Walter Williams as well.

Rae, 10:31a: Coincidentally, I started to watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest this weekend for the first time in 20 years. I don't know why I couldn't finish it... maybe because I'm a nurse? :) Nurse Ratched freaked me out anew, and I felt so sorry for Jack Nicholson, knowing his eminent demise.

Same thing happened watching some show on steroid use and this guy's muscle that exploded. I had to turn it off.

Yet I had absolutely no trouble participating in a pro-life picket Friday, with graphic pictures.

I don't understand myself.

@Jill: Jack Nicholson doesn't die at the end of the movie. Well...at least he doesn't die physically. It's a great movie, but it is different from the book I noticed.

Rae,

Jack Nicholson did die, he was smothered by the Indian who then fled the hospital. Jack Nicholson had been lobotomized and the Indian would not leave him to live like that. Old Joe Kennedy had his daughter Rosemary lobotomized because of behavior problems and she spent the rest of her life in an institution because of it. Lobotomies were inaccurate at best and could leave a patient very seriously impaired, as it did Rosemary. I understand it reduced her to the level of a 4 y/o.

MK:

"When Alyssa was telling us about helping her friend get an abortion and we were all on her about that not being real help, one of the things that we meant was that by "helping" her get an abortion, she was also saying that she didn't believe her friend had what it took to do the job and raise her child."

I didn't help my friend get an abortion because either of us thought that she was wholly incapable of raising a child. We had talked over her options very seriously, and both of us knew that she would have been able to raise a child if she chose to give up everything else she had already worked for. That was the issue. Giving up the rest of her life for an embryo was not in the cards for her. Never did I say that I thought she was unable to raise a child. We just came to the conclusion that she would not be able to do it without giving up everything she desired, dreamed, and loved. Plus, she was sick and tired of being sick and tired (all the time), and decided the embryo had wreaked enough havoc on her body and it was time for it to come out. That may sound harsh to you, but as far as she's concerned, it didn't have a right to continue making her sick, tired, and nauseous all the time (her grades were slipping because she was missing class). She wanted it OUT, and I wasn't going to stop her.

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm gonna get more flak about this now, because many of you ladies here have had children and think the sickness and being constantly tired and giving up goals and dreams are worth it to carry a pregnancy to term... but to some people, it's much more fulfilling to have a successful life ahead of them WITHOUT having given birth to a child.

And to her, it isn't a "dead baby"...it's an evicted embryo. Again, sorry for being harsh, but that's the hard truth to her, and she'll never change that opinion.

"if you change the phrasing a wee bit, it seems to fit right-in with Cam's logic ... the new "victim's" are pregnant women (the body autonomy bit) ... lot's of distress ... pregnancy is now shunned - Cam ends pregnancy & so what about the fetus (he says)."

exactly John....

Lyssie,

You make it sound like one's life, dreams, etc is over if they have a baby.

"And to her, it isn't a "dead baby"...it's an evicted embryo. Again, sorry for being harsh"

Lyssie, can I get a little background on you and your friends faith. Atheists? believers?

...and do like newborn babies? you know, to hold them, etc...

My friend is an Atheist, Jasper. I am still searching, Jasper, although I was raised Catholic (I DO believe in God, Jesus, etc). I used to be more pro-life, but came to feel that compulsory pregnancy is repugnant and bastardizes/cheapens the motherhood idea in that women should be willing participants in pregnancy and not just life support machines for other beings, sacrificing health, dreams, and physical freedom against their wills for others.

I do like babies, as I am addicted to my cousin's beautiful little girl (I held her in the hospital soon after her birth). Even so, I know my cousin willingly gave consent for the gorgeous little Janelle (the baby) to use her body, and I respect that. My cousin was also able to achieve her goals PRIOR to desiring to have a child. That's the ideal. If Janelle had been born before that, it would have been highly improbable, nigh, impossible,for her to do so.

I'm sorry, Jasper...for many people, having a baby cuts off any chance for the upward mobility and fulfilling of dreams that they desire. The life that they wanted, worked for, and dreamed about IS, effectively, over. It's the sad truth. Until fool-proof birth control is brought to the forefront (when is that damn male birth control pill coming OUT!?!?! It should be here ASAP!!!), we really can't do anything.

Alyssa,

When I first read about your episode with your friend, I thought "Just let it lie. You and Alyssa are getting along so well, why rock the boat. Let someone else call her out..."

That lasted about 2 minutes. First, it was an incredibly cowardly thought. Second, it was faulty thinking. The very fact that I do like you so much means that I would be a truly lousy friend if I didn't point out something to you that I believed was harmful. What kind of a friend wouldn't yell out "George, look out for that tree!"

Third, what kind of a moderator for a pro-life site would I be if I kept my mouth closed when it was unpleasant.

On the "No-name" post, I just sent Heather4life a copy of an essay titled "Sing a Little Louder".
Which is what I would have been doing if I had kept silent.

The point is, that just because something is hard, or unpleasant doesn't mean it isn't good for you.
Responding to you, despite the unpleasantness and risk I was taking, was good for me. It built character and tested my commitment to the cause. Hopefully I passed.

I got pregnant at 21, was unmarried at the time and attending DePaul. My husband had not had any college up to that point.

After our third child, he enrolled in DePaul. It took him eleven years, while working 3 jobs and raising 3 kids to get his degree. But he did it. His life wasn't ruined. Far from it. It made him stronger. And what a great example it set for his kids.

I began teaching pre-school and used to take a bus (in Chicago winters-uphill both ways) with 2 kids in tow. Easy? No. But it also made me stronger.

The mindset of today seems to be "If it feels good do it over and over, and if it's hard or unpleasant, either run from it or eliminate it"...

What weak and selfish people this must be producing.

I understand that you and your friend believe that what you did was the best thing. I get that her life would have been harder had she kept the baby.
But it wouldn't have ended. And she still could have fulfilled every one of her dreams and then some. She just would have had to take a different road to get there. It's not like she was curing cancer or creating world peace. Whatever her plans, I'm sure the consequences would not have been earth shattering. The consequences for her little one, however, were.

And not once has adoption come up. 9 months of sacrifice on your friends parts, 7 from the time she had the abortion, and not only could she have continued her life unhindered, but she could also have made some childless couple delirious with joy.

No, Alyssa, I can't agree with you or your friends "choice" and I can't pretend to either. Not even for the sake of our new found friendship. Actually, because of our new found friendship.

I emailed you and tried to continue this conversation off-site, but you never emailed back.
Sorry, if this was hurtful. That was not my intention.

And I have to ask. If you truly are so completely comfortable with your decision, why are you so defensive?

Lyssie, I also want to say something in your defense. {I'm sure MK may agree] Sometimes you CANNOT talk a woman out of abortion. Believe me, I have tried to no avail. This is where the women need to own up to what they have done. I have begged and pleaded with women not to have the abortion. Some are just going to do what they want no matter what you say.

But Heather, Lyssie did not try to talk her friend out of having the abortion....

Lyssie: "I do like babies, as I am addicted to my cousin's beautiful little girl (I held her in the hospital soon after her birth)."

Lyssie, if you could turn the clock back, let's your cousin wanted to abort Janelle, would you try to talk her out of it?

Heather,

I totally agree...however, Alyssa believes that as a friend she had to "support" her friends choice, which is very different from supporting her friend.
She would never have tried to talk her friend out of the abortion because A. She doesn't believe that there was anything wrong with the decision. and B. because it is a about choice and her friends right to make one unhindered.

If Alyssa had tried to dissuade her friend from having the abortion and failed, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I spend every Saturday in front of an abortion clinic trying to "talk women out of it"...believe me, no one knows better than I do how hard that can be!

"I am still searching, Jasper, although I was raised Catholic (I DO believe in God, Jesus, etc)."

If you already believe in Jesus, why are you still searching?

MK, adoption was considered. My friend was not willing to go through pregnancy any longer. And as it was her life that would be drastically altered, I felt I had no right to talk her out of an abortion (also due to the fact that I don't believe a 7-week embryo holds sway over a woman's body or life, understand?). It wasn't my life to have jurisdiction over.

I guess I am getting defensive more for the fact that I think about my friend in this situation more than myself. I could care less if helping her was a detriment to me or not, according to you. I just care about her and how she'd feel knowing that there are so many people out there disparaging what she went through.

MK, I'm glad life worked out for the better, for you and your family. I'm glad you could persevere and achieve what you wanted. However, the fact still remains that for some people, the life that they want to achieve is permanently curtailed by an unintended pregnancy, even if they work themselves to the bone to try to get what they desire. I'm glad you're a stronger person, along with your husband. I wish you only the best. And I wish my friend the same.

You're right, I didn't try to talk her out of it. I told her to evaluate everything we talked about (I looked up adoption options, as well). I asked her for sure if abortion is what she wanted, and told her to think it over (because yes, I think abortion IS a life-changing event that can cause women grief if they don't consider all their options with equal merit). I accepted her choice and did what I could for her to make sure she was safe and sound. (Plus I knew she was hurting herself because of the pregnancy, as in hitting herself in the stomach and all that to "make it go away". I wasn't willing to let that progress to the point where she caused irreparable damage/death to herself.)

Jasper, I'm still searching because I'm not sure what to do with my beliefs yet. I can't explain in words what my feelings are. Please accept this for now...when I am able to voice my feelings, I'll be sure to come here to you, specially. We've been at each other's throats for a little while now, and I apologize for any scathing remarks.

Sorry for not responding on email, MK...I've been busy all weekend (my boyfriend came to visit!! OMG he's the love of my life, I'm gonna marry him, etc!!!!). Sorry, we're so cutesey it's disgusting (you might vomit if you're in the room with us for too long).

MK, I have evaluated my beliefs time and again due to the efforts of you, Bethany, Mary, and others. Most of the time you strengthened my beliefs, and other times you shattered certain parts of them. Like for instance, I can no longer, under any circumstances (save only if it's the only way to save the life of the mother, which is overwhelmingly unlikely), advocate post-viability abortion. I believe that if rights can be salvaged, all should be done to preserve rights. This is why I also advocate changing the methods of pre-viability abortions, because, as was mentioned here, the point of viability is constantly being pushed further and further back due to better technology. Take a fetus/embryo out ALIVE...don't kill it in the uterus. If a fetus/embryo can be taken out alive (pre- or post-viability), then its rights should be respected outside of a woman's body. If it can be saved, save it. Do what you can even if it cannot be saved. This will be easier as technology progresses. And it will progress.

Alyssa,

I wasn't complaining that you hadn't answered my email, just saying that I had dropped the conversation here on the site, thinking we would continue via email. When that didn't happen, I brought it back out in the open. I just wanted you to understand why I was suddenly objecting publicly again.

As to your friend, she doesn't sound okay to me. Hitting herself in the stomach to the point of killing herself sounds pretty serious. Sounds like she needed more than an abortion. Maybe some psychiatric help.

As to the pre-viability/post viability question...I urge you to rethink and redefine your exact reasons for putting an age on the unborn that determines their life is worth/not worth insuring.

To the "good for you and husband" part...
Life is all about confronting obstacles and passing tests. If everytime you come across an obstacle or face a test in life you cut and run you will have built an extremely weak character.

If you spent your life lying around in bed your muscles would atrophy. If you never challenged your mind, your brain would atrophy. If you avoid all challenges of the spiritual kind, your soul will atrophy. Physical exercise keeps your body fit, mental exercise keeps your mind fit and spiritual exercise keeps your soul fit. Spiritual exercise comes in the form of trials, tribulations, obstacles and challenges. Not meeting them is like refusing to walk because it takes too much effort. It leaves you too weak to walk when you need to. Or took weak to face the real spiritual challenges when they come along.

*smacks head*

Oh snap, Mary. Thanks, I totally forgot about that part at the end, I only remembered the lobotomy! Me thinks I need to re-rent that delightful movie and watch it again. :D

okay, I see. I have never supported abortion for friends. Odd, my friend did the same thing after finding out about her pregnancy. She hit herself in the stomach to "get rid of it" She did eventually need psychiatric care after her abortion anyway.

A few months ago, I had a friend who thought that she might have been pregnant. Naturally, I was concerned because I had known this friend since I was 8. She had been with her boyfriend on and off since they were 12 years old and as of now they've been together for about two years for their most recent relationship with each other.

Anyway, so she told me she was going to go to one of those pregnancy centers that are available around campus and she wanted me to come with her for moral support. I asked her what she was considering doing if she was pregnant. She said that she was probably going to get an abortion and to be quite honest, I was really friggin' pissed off at her. I knew she had been sleeping with her boyfriend and I knew she wasn't on the Pill at all (I'm pretty sure she used condoms though...). I was angry at her for being so irresponsible for not even *trying* to get the Pill to prevent things like this from happening. I had been nagging her for months to get on the Pill but she kept procrastinating.

So anyway, I told her that I would support any decision that she made and if she chose to keep the baby I would help out in any way possible. In fact, I was hinting at her to just have the kid and give it up for adoption, because after all, she too was adopted. I was also telling her that if she kept the baby I would help her get to appointments, I would baby-sit for free, I would do anything to help her out.

Fortunately, the pregnancy test was negative because to be honest, I'm not sure how I would have actually dealt with the problem as she more than likely would have had an abortion regardless of my help (or her parents for that matter and she has very supportive parents) and that frustrated me. In fact, this happened 4-5 months ago and I am *still* upset with her about this.

So yeah...

Mary and Jasper,
Your earlier discussion on mental illness is of interest to me. As I've mentioned before, I've been on a medications for a major depressive disorder for 5 yrs now and in therapy for 1 1/2 yrs, as well as have attempted suicide twice and had pyschiatric hospitalization twice (just in the last year). I certainly can understand the frustrations and ups and downs.

*Heather, Mary, Jasper, and Rae, sorry didn't mean to forget you too.

Rachael,

My heart goes out to you. How difficult it must be for you. Carder asked me for more info on my daughter's history of mental illness and I posted it on this thread. I don't know if you read it or not.
I can only advise Rachael that you do your own research and be more knowledgable of your condition than the people who treat you. The internet is a wealth of information.
If there's any way I can be of help or support to you please just post. I think any info you and any of us share can be of such great value to people. You are not alone. I've noticed other people posting here who have their own experience with mental illness. MK has posted of her experiences with her bipolar children. There is hope and help. Know that we are all here for you Racheal and that we care very much.

Rae, thank you for doing what you could to encourage your friend to do the right thing in that situation. It is amazing that she would have sex without even trying to prevent pregnancy, yet would consider an abortion when the obvious was believed to have happened. Why if she was going to have sex, didn't she at least *try* to prevent it from happening? I can understand your frustration from that.

Thank you for reminding your friend that she was adopted, and encouraging her to adopt, and offering to babysit if she kept the baby.

I am thankful that her test was negative as well! I know it must have been deeply frustrating for you to deal with that situation, knowing how easily it could have been prevented, etc.

Is she trying to prevent pregnancy now, after having had a "scare"?

*claps for Rae!!* Rae, These are the SAME emotions I feel when an irresponsible friend aborts. The lady I knew who aborted 7 times used no protection. Not even a condom. Another had 9. No protection at all. The abortion clinics were their BC. I think it's the easy access and no real restrictions on abortion that have made things this way. Come to think of it, I have never had a post abortive woman tell me that her BC failed. They were just taking their chances. Also, if women are putting themselves @ risk for an unplanned pregnancy, just think about all of the diseases they have also put themselves at risk for.

Hi Bethany. Welcome back. Hope you are okay!

Your earlier discussion on mental illness is of interest to me. As I've mentioned before, I've been on a medications for a major depressive disorder for 5 yrs now and in therapy for 1 1/2 yrs, as well as have attempted suicide twice and had pyschiatric hospitalization twice (just in the last year). I certainly can understand the frustrations and ups and downs.

Rachael, if you ever need anyone to talk to, we are here for you. It sounds like you have been through a LOT! (((((hugs))))

This is why I say; Abortion has not empowered women. It has turned many into reproductive slobs! I have friends who say that they don't regret their abortions, but I have never heard them say that they felt empowered.

Heather, thank you! I'm doing okay...After our vacation, James still had a few days off, until today, so I've been spending more time with him and less time with the computer...LOL That's the reason for my absence. Soon, I should be back to posting more. :)

@Bethany: Yes, she finally got on the Pill after this.

And another thing that bothered me about this whole ordeal is that she didn't want to be pregnant so she could keep riding her horse. This absolutely drove me crazy. She was more concerned about riding her damned horse. She didn't care about possibly not finishing school (she hates school anyway and would love an excuse to drop-out)...she cared about not being able to ride her horse due to the hypothetical pregnancy.

::headdesk::

Rachael, I am also here for you. I think a lot of people are reluctant to reveal any form of mental illness because of the stigma attached to it. I think society is changing though. I know tons of people suffering from some form of mental illness. I shall include myself, because I too struggle with depression.

Another good point! The REASONS for abortion. I haven't heard a good one yet! On of my friends ran to the abortion clinic as soon as the test strip turned pink. Her reason? "John" is getting on my nerves." "I can't have a kid with him." Odd, she was back in the sack with "John" right after her abortion. Sickening!

Heather4life,

You're so right about the stigma of mental illness. I will freely talk of my daughter and her condition and why not? Its other people who are uncomfortable, change the subject, apologize for asking about her, etc. I try very hard to put them at ease and let them know I appreciate their concern when they ask about her. I share my experience also in the hope of helping other parents who I suspect are dealing with the same problem I did, but don't know the name for it.
As always, research and know more about your condition than the people treating you. You could very well find other causes and/or treatment options.

Rae,

More claps for you!!

Rae,

I gotta say that I think you are more pro-life than you let on. You know how frustrated you felt that she wanted to abort so she could continue horse back riding? That's the same frustration we feel about 99% of the reasons given for aborting.

Your friend could argue that horse back riding was so important to her that her life would be seriously altered if she had to quit, causing her great mental anguish. You and I would say, "Phooey"...

But what about the women who wants to finish school, (like in Alyssa's friends case)? Is school more important than horse back riding? Maybe to you, but not to your friend. Neither excuse makes any sense to us...

This is the concept of relativism that we keep harpin' on. To one person this is important therefore morally acceptable. To another it isn't but something else is. Where do you draw the line.

You have stated that 13 weeks is your cutoff. Your friend says horse back riding was critical to her well being. Alyssa friend says she had to finish school...

They are all rather arbitrary, no? How do you make a final analysis? What determines the right answer? And bodily autonomy won't cut it, because if you believe that, then their should never be a reason to continue a pregnancy.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

This is why we defer to a moral authority.
God, the Church, the Pope...because without a definitive boundary, we are left to our own devices. Then most of our "moral" decisions are based on our own personal "desires" and right and wrong become easy and hard...pleasant or unpleasant. Very iffy grounds for making life and death choices, don't you think?

Rachel,

We're all here for you, many people suffer from depression and bad thoughts. Don't put to much pressure on yourself. Stick with your therapy. You are not alone-

Everyone,

I discovered my daughter's condition in a true crime novel! The book was discussing the diagnosis of the perpetrator as personality disorder and wrote extensively on the symptoms and names of the various disorders. Since this sounded so much like my daughter I began researching the internet and found my answer, something no "experts" had been able to do.
That is why I am only too happy to share any info I have on this blog as well as with people I interact with daily. It may help you or them better understand a friend or loved one, or to know that your situation is in no way unique. If anyone ever has any questions or concerns they would like to discuss with me, please feel free to post.

Mary,
I just read up on her condition and I swear I think I have known quite a few people who have it!!

Hi Rosie,

You very likely have. These are people who function in society and can appear very normal. They are not considered legally insane, unless they do something criminal like stalking or murder. My father, who was BPD, ran a very successful business. I'm convinced a surgeon I worked with was BPD as well, but he was an excellent surgeon, in between his insane rages.

Mary,

Have you read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells"?
There's a workbook too.

Hi MK,

Thank you. I have heard of the book but I haven't read it. I did however read an excellent book by Dr. Friedel, the name I believe is Living With Borderline Personality Disorder, or something close to that. I have loaned it out to a co-worker, about who's daughter I am very concerned. The book is fantastic. Dr. Friedel specializes in the treatment of BPD, his sister had the condition, and writes very thoroughly and compassionately, sparing the reader a lot of psychiatric mumbo jumbo. This and other excellent books are available on Amazon.
Walking on Eggshells is a very appropriate description of living with someone with this disorder. As a child, I never knew what incident, no matter how trivial, would send my father into an explosive violent rage. The same with my daughter as a late teen and young adult.

Is it genetic or environmental? both maybe?

Hi Rosie,

I'm convinced its genetic, just from what I've observed in my family. I saw distinct personalities in each of my children from infancy and my BPD child was definitely "the different child", as Dr. Friedel says a BPD child will often be. Also, my daughter's behavior is so much like my father that's its eerie.
Dr. Friedel seemed to suggest that it could be genetic or a child born predisposed to certain environmental triggers, or a combination of both.

I agree that it is a combo. I'm a firm believer in learned behavior, after awhile it just takes over. What about diet? I think that contributes as well.

"a child born predisposed to certain environmental triggers,"

explain, I have never understood that. I have heard that one form of szichophrenia is "triggered".

Hi Rosie,

While I do agree with you to some degree about learned behavior, I am convinced people are born wired a certain way. For example, no amount of therapy or learned behavior will give a sociopath a conscience or change their behavior. They are incredibly manipulative and cunning and you must learn to protect yourself from them, not to believe they've changed.
Why was my daughter plagued with nightmares? My other children weren't. BPD children will often experience terrifying night terrors, almost hallucinations. I'm absolutely convinced this is faulty brain wiring. We have to remember Rosie that at one time autism and mental illness were blamed on mothers. We have since learned that these are the result of brain malfunction. Schizophrenia is definitely hereditary, sometimes afflicting several children in one family as young adults. Why were they fine until adulthood? I wonder if this is the "triggered schizophrenia" you are thinking of, or perhaps people who are psychologically fragile for whatever reason who cannot handle any kind of stress without "snapping". No amount of learned behavior will stop hallucinations or prevent paranoia.
About environmental triggers. Its like some people with strong family histories of diabetes. They may do everything "right" and still become diabetic. Or they may do everything "right" and prevent diabetes but when stressed, depressed, or having suffered a loss they may overeat, eat the wrong foods, or exercise less and trigger diabetes. Some of us can overeat and reduce our activity without developing diabetes.
With BPDs too Rosie you must be careful when taking family histories, and this makes determining environmental factors difficult. These are very manipulative people and they see themselves as victims. My daughter tells everyone how horribly abused she was, which is total claptrap. She completely turned her boyfriend against us, he refused to enter the house, and forever claimed we never did a thing for her. Also total claptrap. Until his death, my father conned people about being a "victim" and tossed out on his ear by my mother. He never saw his family, who he brutalized and terrorized as the real victims, nor could he ever comprehend his chidren's rejection.
Believe me Rosie, you will better understand if you ever try to hold a rational conversation with these people. They definitely have a different level of perception. They can have lucid periods, as my father and daughter did, but they never last.
By the way, in his book Dr. Friedel does discuss research into the brain function of BPDs and he writes of some very interesting findings.
About diet. Rosie, you should see the garbage my daughter ate, it was almost uncontrollable. Sure I tried to reason with her, warn her of the damage to her health and appearance, she is, or she was the last time I saw her a beautiful Scandanavian featured girl. It just did not register. Like so much with her, things do NOT click in her brain.
I would strongly recommend that you read Dr. Friedel's book. He covers all aspects of this subject very well.

Rosie,

I just thought of something. Did you ever see the movie "Fatal Attraction"? According to Dr. Friedel, Glen Close's character Alex is a BPD, however a more extreme case.
You'll remember how she was a woman who appeared to function very normally, she held a job, lived independently, seemed rational. Remember how Michael Douglas and she had two entirely different views of their relationship and he absolutely could not convince Alex the affair was only a weekend fling, no matter how hard he tried. It was like he was talking to a wall. In her mind this was a romance and he was trying to toss her aside. BPDs have a great fear of abandonment and can respond very violently to what they perceive as such, as Alex did. She also slashed her wrists and at the end of the movie, cut herself. BPDs, my daughter included, usually self injure. They seem to have a different level of pain tolerance.
I thought about this example and wanted to share it with you as it very well illustrates a BPD and their thought processes.
I understand this movie also kept a few straying husbands in line!

I LOOOOOVED Fatal Attraction. I know women who have acted just like Glen Close in relationships. So, that's what they call it? BTW, that was some excellent acting on all parts!!

Mary,
As usual you write a terrific post.

My son Tommy, while he could get angry growing up, never gave us a bit of trouble until he turned 19 and went off to college.

Rosie,

There he started using drugs. Did the drugs trigger he Bi/Polar? Did the loneliness, stress and fear of leaving home cause the drug use which triggered the bi/polar? Did the bi/polar cause the mood swings which led to the stress and drugs?

We'll probably never know, but the fact that my birth mother has been diagnosed with both bi/polar AND BPD, that my birth brother, while never diagnosed, shows all the signs of the two diseases (he is currently incarcerated in Minnesota for molesting children), that my birth father was and alcoholic, that his father was an alcoholic and physically abusive all lead me to know that it was definitely in the gene pool.

I have six kids, and so far only one has shown any clear signs of mental illness. One of my sons, however, concerns me. I think he suffers from depression, but he doesn't believe in mental illness and is convinced it "is all in your head"...pun intended. He thinks you can will yourself into mental health. Two of my kids haven't reached the age that these illnesses often present themselves, usually 18 years or so.

Bi/Polar can be successfully treated with drugs, usually the same drugs used for epilepsy. Depakote, Lithium, etc. But unfortunately BPD, Narcissism, Paranoid Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, anti-social personality disorder...at this point in time cannot be helped with medication. Only therapy. But of course there is great hope!

Remember, just 50 years ago we drilled into peoples skulls to "cure" them of these disorders.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

Personality disorder, formerly referred to as a Characterological disorder is a class of mental illness characterized by rigid and on-going patterns of thought and action. The underlying belief systems informing these patterns are referred to as fixed fantasies. The inflexibility and pervasiveness of these behavioral patterns often cause serious personal and social difficulties, as well as a general impairment of functioning.

Personality disorders are defined by the American Psychiatric Association as "an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectations of the culture of the individual who exhibits it". [1] These patterns, as noted, are inflexible and pervasive across many situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is ego-syntonic (i.e., the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the individual), and therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual. The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to the beginning of adulthood, and, in rare instances, early adolescence. [2]

MK,

I believe recreational drugs can trigger strange behavior is people with no mental illness. I remember in my late teens, when I would occasionaly smoke pot, it would trigger nasty panic attacks. Before I tried smoking pot, I never had a panic attack.

Good Morning Everyone,

Before I go visit my folks in Detroit this Saturday I have a pile of housework to finish and you good people are doing nothing to help me get it done. I'm addicted to all of you!!
Anyway,

Heather,

I loved the movie as well. Alex represented the more extreme BPD but you can see her how her perception was on an entirely different level from most of the rest of us, and how she otherwise appeared normal. As viewers, we could recognize the situation for what it really was, when the wife's away the rat will play, but Alex was completely unable to perceive this.
Did you ever see the movie "A Woman Scorned" about Betty Broderick. She was an example of Narcissitic Personality Disorder. By the way, she was diagnosed as such in the second movie. Remember her explosive rages, an NPD trait, driving her car through the front door, burning her husband's clothes. Her fixation on the fact her husband left her. Her portrayal of herself as the real victim, not her ex-husband and his wife, the people she killed. NPDs will view themselves as the victims, and have no regard for the people they have harmed in any way.
Certainly not all NPDs resort to murder, my sister being an example, but fear of loss of control, they are very contolling people, and fear of abandonment are two of their traits, as was displayed by Betty, and can result in violence. The women you describe may well be NPDs and behavior such as this is cause for concern. They could also be BPDs. My NPD sister went completely over the edge when her husband, a man she claimed she never loved, left her, I mean the death throes. My mother was becoming very frightened by her almost psychotic behavior.
BPD, NPD, Histrionic, and sociopathic are very closely related, they are considered a "cluster", and symptoms overlap.
A person diagnosed with one of these disorders will likely display symptoms of another disorder in this cluster. MY BPD daughter also displays sociopathic symptoms.

MK,

An excellent and informative post. Thank you. Concerning your son, depression can be a symptom of BPD, making misdiagnosis a possiblity. I don't know how old your son is but I would keep this possibility in mind. My daughter was also thought to be just depressed. Her symptoms became profound in adolescense when she began injuring herself, though I am convinced there were signs in childhood that I now recognize in retrospect, like the night terrors, intense dislike even hatred of people, and impulsiveness.
The alcoholic history you mention can be indicative of BPD, as BPDs often abuse drugs and alcohol as a means of coping.
MK, please read Dr. Friedel's book. You can get it on Amazon.com. Its very informative and well written.

Jasper,

You are correct, drugs can certainly trigger mental instability such as rage or panic attack.
But they can also be a means of coping for people with existing mental problems, which are only exacerrbated by the drug use. I know my daughter was developing a dependency on amphetamines, which she did obtain legally, just before she left. She felt these drugs truly helped her cope and would become almost insane with fear if she couldn't account for all her pills. MK's son may well have turned to drugs as a coping mechanism as his bi-polar symptoms began manifesting. My BPD father was alcoholic.
A friend of mine who told me she was diagnosed with BPD has been a walking pharmaceutical of legal drugs since I've known her. Nothing terrifies her like the thought of going off her "medications".

OK folks, its time for my housework, I also hope to scuba dive tonite as well. I know I'll take several "breaks" to visit all of you but I have to to get moving!! I love you all!!

Jasper,

Too true...drugs can do strange things. However, with mental illness the symptoms don't clear up when you stop using.

Mary,

Danny doesn't show any other symptoms of NPD, BPD, Sociopathy or Histrionic. He's actually very even keeled...If anything, I would worry about bi/polar as it seems to be mostly mood related, and not a thought disorder. But as he lives so far away, it's hard to know. His brother, the one that was diagnosed, does rapid cycling when he's off meds. He can be up and down so fast your head would spin. Sometimes he was up and down at the same time...this is when he began to show psychotic behavior and had to be hospitalized. That was 2 years ago and you'd never believe it today! God is good.

I'm so sorry about your daughter. The only thing I can say is that they are discovering new medications and new uses for the old ones everyday.

I hope and will pray that your daughter will benefit from them, and soon. The hardest part is knowing who your child really is and seeing a stranger living in their body...you feel so helpless! I can only imagine how they must feel. The moments of lucidity, while being a welcome reprieve for us, must be hell for them, as they can see how sick they are...like a blind person getting to see for 10 minutes every year. Each time the blindness comes back it must be more painful. Or a drowning person, who is allowed to come up for just enough air to live, only to be plunged back down to the depths again and again...horrifying...

"However, with mental illness the symptoms don't clear up when you stop using."

Mine didn't either, I have to take anti-anxiety/depression drugs (Paxil) to this day because of it.

Do you ever wonder about the society we live in today contributing to some of these problems...

jasper, How true!

Oh please Jasper,

Don't you know that there are no repurcussions anymore. You can do whatever you want and if it goes wrong, blame it on us. Or call it coincidence. But for heavens sake, don't draw parallels between behavior and consequences...

Honestly, using drugs can lead to problems later on? What can you be thinking?

I took anti-anxiety meds for 6 weeks and it did go away. I waited for 4 years though to go to the doctor. Being on medication freaks me out, or the idea I can become addicted anyway. I'm sure society problems don't help at all. Your daughter's situation really sucks Mary, sorry.

My sister in-law was telling me about this study that was done. There was a group of women with babies and they would refuse to smile, even when the babies would initiate it. The babies in turn became very depressed. If that tells you nothing about society I don't know what would. What mother would do that study?!

On a happier note, my baby laughed for the first time Monday. We were in the pet shop watching these puppies jump on eachother playing and she just cracked up laughing! Puppies! Go figure!! I swear that was just the coolest experience ever, to hear your baby's first laugh.

@MK, agreed, LOL.... I did some cocaine use as well, but not as much as pot. Sometimes, in our younger years, you think nothing you do will effect you later on in life, ah was I wrong.

@Rosie, agree, I always get a kick out of hearing my kids laugh...

MK and Rosie,

Thank you both for your kind words of support. Your caring and support are very much appreciated.

MK,

I'm very relieved that Danny is not showing any symptoms of PD and to hear how well your other son is doing. You're right, as miserable as the BPD can make our lives, one must wonder how truly miserable they must be when they self injure, and/or abuse drugs and alcohol to cope. I well remember my daughter saying how empty she felt inside, a BPD symptom. She did know something was wrong with her. They're people who are very much alone and are totally clueless as to why.

Rosie,

How wonderful about your baby. It seems like forever since mine were babies. I can remember prodding smiles out of my son when he was about a month old, and my youngest just loved playing with her toes. All my babies were pretty easy, but all distinctly different personalities right from birth.

Well, so much for my scuba diving plans tonite. Thunderstorms. I don't care to be in the water under a big thundercloud with a metal tank on my back that contains 3,000 psi of air. I didn't finish my housework either! I'd rather talk to you folks!

It must be cool to scuba dive, i'll never be able to, I have a huge fear of natural bodies of water.

Hi Rosie,

It is great. I am very claustrophobic so it can be a struggle for me. I'm managing it better than I used to.

Mary,

Where do you live that you can just up and SCUBA dive at the drop of a hat???

Hi MK,

I live in the Midwest. We have a group of divers that go out once a week and dive some spot in Lake Michigan or one of the local quarries. I belong to a dive club. Sometimes we also dive the local private lakes.
I belong to a search and recovery team and I like to keep up my comfort level and skills. Plus the camaraderie and food and drink after a dive is great fun too!

Mary,
"I belong to a search and recovery team"

That is too cool!!!! Maybe when my kids are grown i'll try that. Have you done any rescue or recovery and where, this is stuff that fascinates me, do you use dogs???!!! Is it true that dogs can smell people under water ( their gasses I think). I read a book about a woman who was in search and rescue but it was fiction so i'm not sure how accurate it was.

Rosie,

Now isn't that interesting. That was my long term goal as well and when my last two were still in high school, I took my first diving class 4 years ago. For our team a minimum of rescue diving certification is required, which is the extent of my diving certifications. Most team members have more extensive certifications. We are all volunteer and only go out at the request of law enforcement, who usually have their own teams, or family members once law enforcement has stopped searching. Members go on the basis of availability.
We also do land searches. So far we've recovered a couple of drowning victims, and were called about doing a search for a murder victim on this guy's(a poster child for the death penalty) property but it turned out he had few ponds and the sheriff had enough divers to search them. We also searched for a lost man, both land and water, who we never found, but was found later by his family.
There are "cadaver" dogs, but the police handle those. I don't know what they can do in the water, I've only seen them on land.
I'm afraid what we do isn't quite as dramatic, challenging, or dangerous as what you see on TV. Those are very extreme scenarios and require far more extensive training and physical stamina than what our team has. We are pretty localized and do this as a community service.

That is sooo cool! I doubt i'll be able to post much else today, my baby is teething...

Rosie,

About your fear of huge natural bodies of water. Go for scuba diving anyway if that's what you want. Nothing gives you more satisfaction than conquering a demon, which I did with claustrophobia.
A teething baby? I could always count on an ear infection with my youngest every time she teethed. No one will ever convince me there is no connection between teething and fevers and ear infections.

Mary,
I'm always joking with my husband that there is no way that I would want to conquer my phobias because then I wouldn't be afraid and I would just jump into a lake, or pick up a snake. There's truth to it though, I don't want to get over my phobias because I know i'll be in the situation where i'll go in water. A weird part of me thinks they are there to protect me. However, I hope that if my kid falls in water one day I would jump in after her. Dilema, dilema...
This teething thing is brutal! Thank God for baby oragel! I'm hoping her chances of getting a ear infection are smaller since I breastfeed. But I do think you are right about there being a connection, i've seen it too many times not to.

Mary, Bethany, and Jasper,
Thank you for your kind words. At the time I was originally responding in this thread, I was just released from the hospital (July 13th) and recovering from a major depressive episode and hearing others stories as well as being able to talk more openly about it helped me to not feel so alone. I still have some worse days, but I hope these will eventually be outnumbered by good days soon.