While some of these are relatively minor, others are horrific. It's easy to see why this clinic was unable to provide any sort of game plan for improvement.

Fabulous! All filthy medical facilities should be shut down!
A recent sweep in my own area shut down a number of "garage dentists" and in-home collegen party hosts. Three atrocious tattoo artists were shut down recently after a Hepatitus/Staph breakout, and a numer of small "bathtub cheese" factories were closed for being full of Listerosis. Last year a number of manicurists were shut down after a revolting flesh-eating pedicure outbreak. When I was an animal control officer I was instrumental in shutting down almost a dozen unlicensed, filthy, kennel/puppymills and catteries, and finding homes for the nearly 60 goats someone was keeping inside a private residential home.
My sister is the environmental health diva for San Bernardino county. She has some really interesting stories...

I'm sure that NOW and NARAL will be sending their letters in to protest the closing of this "fabulous joint."

Laura, Texas Iva, Ocean......Bring it on!

An abortion clinic in MY state was closed for some of the same reasons. YAY! My state kicked abortionist, Martin Ruddock's arss clean out of the state!

I'm sure that NOW and NARAL will be sending their letters in to protest the closing of this "fabulous joint."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really? Perhaps you'd like to site ONE SINGLE occasion when NOW or NARAL has protested the closure of a filthy medical facility.

NOW was one of the leaders in promoting private birthing facilities separate from hospitals. The infection rate in birthing centers is way lower for both baby and mother.

NOW and NARAL don't give a rat's behind about women!

There are no baby killing factories that are clean, they all need to be shut down.

Laura,

Fantastic, I want nothing more than to see filthy disease spreading facilities of any kind shut down. That's why we have inspectors, health departments, and state laws.
I'm curious, were there any medical facilities shut down because of such filthy conditions as occured in New Jersey? You don't mention any so I wonder if this is just an oversight on your part.
Speaking of unusual "pets" did you hear of the guy in Harlem who kept a tiger in his apt.?

jasper, I agree! One by one they are closing their doors. I don't care if pro choicers believe it or not. The proof is in the pudding!

Perhaps you'd like to site ONE SINGLE occasion
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That shouuld probably be "cite." I need caffeine...

see where the Death camps are in your area:

http://www.lifedynamics.com/DeathCamps/DeathCamps.cfm

I have never walked into any doctor's office that fits this description. If I saw filth, I'd exit immediately. I'd also call the Health Department.

Uh, people...

Jill's story starts with a fetus dying in a room filled with soiled linen. That's disgusting, and THAT occured in a large, legitimate Catholic hospital.
If you think the size of a medical facility has anything to do with cleanliness, you'd be WRONG! I live in a major medical community and my team-penning partners are all nurses. Their stories often make my hair stand on end.

*shrugs* I have no issue with closing down hazardous medical facilities. Like I said, a lot of inner city hospitals need some serious help too- they're horribly dirty.

Well, Thank God Jill exposed that hospital. Frankly, no good doctor would agree to perform an abortion. I know plenty of nurses who have refused to watch or participate in any abortion procedure.

"That's disgusting, and THAT occured in a large, legitimate Catholic hospital."

Abortions are not allowed in Catholic hospitals Laura.

How could anyone take a live baby and put him on a shelf to DIE?

I'm curious, were there any medical facilities shut down because of such filthy conditions as occured in New Jersey? You don't mention any so I wonder if this is just an oversight on your part.
Speaking of unusual "pets" did you hear of the guy in Harlem who kept a tiger in his apt.?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really don't know that much about medical facility closings, but I understand that the stories are pretty impressive.
I hadn't heard about the tiger, but we did have a guy who kept an alligator on the same property as his wife's day-care center. It wasn't discovered for YEARS. The guy who owned it said that the parents "just never go back there." I think you should always check your child's day-care center for potential man-eaters. It just seems wise...

Laura,

If NOW can be given credit for birthing centers and their lower infection rate, then where is NOW when the abortion clinics, which they support as well, are staffed by sex predators, unqualified and unlicensed personnel, are dirty, and a fire hazard?

I can't even allow myself to think about this for any length of time. It is the most disturbing thing I have ever heard of in my life, and it makes me physically ill! That "doctor" is no better than a convicted murderer. He/She should have been brought up on criminal charges.

Jasper: Abortions are not allowed in Catholic hospitals Laura.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My bad.
It was a Lutheran hospital. (OK, I've never heard of a Lutheran hospital. All of the Christian-based medical facilities I've ever heard of were Catholic or Jewish.)

Testimony of Jill Stanek

I had been working for a year at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Illinois, as a registered nurse in the Labor and Delivery Department, when I heard in report that we were aborting a second-trimester baby with Down’s syndrome. I was completely shocked. In fact, I had specifically chosen to work at Christ Hospital because it was a Christian hospital and not involved, so I thought, in abortion.

A tiger and an alligator? I've got enough trouble keeping my cat fed. LOL!

I wonder how that child's mother feels today.

In fact, abortions will be allowed in Catholic hospitals to save the mother's life.

Laura,

And I thought my daughter's pet python was bad!

If NOW can be given credit for birthing centers and their lower infection rate, then where is NOW when the abortion clinics, which they support as well, are staffed by sex predators, unqualified and unlicensed personnel, are dirty, and a fire hazard?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOW is not in the business of monitoring medical facilites. You know of a sub-standard facility? Stand on your local authorities HARD until you can annoy them into action.
NOW's genius with medical care is actually within their jusrisdiction. They lobby like crazy against the insurance companies in order to improve women's health care. Getting insurance companies to cover birthing centers and - in some states - midwives was a monster hurdle.

Why should we expect people who willingly kill children to conform to any minimum decency requirement?

Abortion mills are the most evil, most vile places on the planet.

I'd rather be in a Taliban prison that in an abortion mill.

His Man, good point!

A tiger in an apartment? The litter box would take up an entire room by itself......... ;-)

I'd be afraid that the tiger would eat me! LOL!

Why should we expect people who willingly kill children to conform to any minimum decency requirement?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you know of someone who's killing children, please call 911. killing children is illegal in this country.

And the person with 60 goats? Who was that, Aberforth Dumbledore?

Ahahaha...yes!

Yes, point of clarification, Christ Hospital is affiliated with the United Church of Christ (and as an aside, Obama's UCC church, 5 miles from Christ, has ties to CH) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, both pro-abortion denominations with dying memberships, pardon the pun but point of fact.

Jasper, sorry to say two Catholic hospital systems have admitted to committing induced labor abortion of handicapped babies: Loyola here in Chicago and Providence, a large chain of 30+ hospitals on the west coast. I've written on them, as have two Catholic reporters, Tom Szyszkiewicz in Our Sunday Visitor, and Maria Kennedy in San Francisco Faith:

http://www.sffaith.com/ed/articles/2004/0411mk.htm

I'm sure there are more. The new CEO of Christ Hospital is an evangelical who transferred here from a Catholic hospital in St. Louis. He told me that hospital (the name I don't know) committed one-two a year.

Laura said, "NOW is not in the business of monitoring medical facilites. You know of a sub-standard facility? Stand on your local authorities HARD until you can annoy them into action."

Why not? NOW is deeply involved in promoting abortion and getting abortion mills started. If NOW is so all about women, why wouldn't NOW take an interest in those clinics where women's health and safety are being so obviously blighted?

Yes, let's not forget about these abortionists who rape and molest their patients. I just can't understand how they get away with their despicable behavior for years?!!

I've read testimonies from former abortion clinic nurses. One nurse testified "To the patients he was warm and caring." "Behind closed doors he always called the women tramps and sluts." This sounds about right.

Why not? NOW is deeply involved in promoting abortion and getting abortion mills started. If NOW is so all about women, why wouldn't NOW take an interest in those clinics where women's health and safety are being so obviously blighted?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOW promotes CHOICE, and I've never heard of a NOW-run clinic of any kind.
The principal target of NOW these days is legislation, which would have nothing to do with the inspection of health facilities on a local level. (The last fundraiser I was aware of involving NOW was for cardiac research. Heart disease disease has apparently become the No.1 killer of American women, and the research on heart disease in women is running a couple of decades behind...)

JKeller,

I would hope that tiger was at least paper trained and always very well fed.

Laura,

My point is you give NOW credit for the establishment of birthing centers and their low infection rate. That's great, I will always give credit where credit is due. Obviously strict standards are adhered to at these centers and I certainly hope we would hear NOW expressing outrage and concern if appalling conditions were discovered in any of these centers. Why isn't this the case with abortion clinics, which NOW also supports the establishment of?

Mary,

Imagine the look on the butcher's face when you come in to order 100 pounds of meat.

"Jasper, sorry to say two Catholic hospital systems have admitted to committing induced labor abortion of handicapped babies"

I read your link Jill. Disgusting. They were violating the fedral law you helped to get passed. What a scam, they cleverly thought by inducing labor and allow them to die "in comfort" that they were doing a moral thing. But what they did was even more hienous then a regular abortion clinic, trying to trick the public into thinking that they didn't do abortions. aahhhh boy. I can't say it surpizes me though, as many Catholics have believed the evil lie about abortion. Good for you helping to expose this. I wonder if this is still going on.

Jill, do you know if the hospial is still doing this?

It's good that we have departments of health to shut down bad facilities and keep abortion safe!

Laura -

"When I was an animal control officer I was instrumental in shutting down almost a dozen unlicensed, filthy, kennel/puppymills and catteries"

I'm curious how many animals hospitals you were able to visit while doing this job. I've worked in several and worked in wildlife rehab and the zoo and i've never seen conditions like what they found in NJ in those places. Why wouldn't NOW want to stand up for women when they are being treated worse than we treat our dogs?

"Perhaps you'd like to site ONE SINGLE occasion when NOW or NARAL has protested the closure of a filthy medical facility."

They are protesting all laws in any state that requires abortion clinics to follow governmental standards of an abulatory surgical center. It is happening in Missouri right now. This is them allowing sub standard clinics to remain open.

"If you think the size of a medical facility has anything to do with cleanliness, you'd be WRONG! "

Major and minor hospitals along with medical clinics get inspected more than just once every 6 years.

"They lobby like crazy against the insurance companies in order to improve women's health care."

They lobby to force insurance companies to cover all forms of Birth Control. Yet my daughter was not covered for her government mandated vaccines. I got my tubes tied, my daughter had to go to the local county health facility and wait about 5 hours in order to get vaccinated.

"Getting insurance companies to cover birthing centers and - in some states - midwives was a monster hurdle."

In Missouri the Pro-Choice democrat is stopping legislation to make mid-wifery legal. NOW nor NARAL is doing anything about this. They are not doing anything about legalizing mid-wifery in 10 states and District of Columbia where it is illegal to be one.

"NOW promotes CHOICE, and I've never heard of a NOW-run clinic of any kind."

NAF - National Abortion Federation - does have regualation etc. that abortion clinics can follow and they can be members of. I never hear them scream when things like this happen to try to promote clinics that are members....

"The principal target of NOW these days is legislation, which would have nothing to do with the inspection of health facilities on a local level. "

They do nothing to get the inspections done and when the states try to force inspections they claim the law is unconstitional and take it to court.

Heather, Christ Hospital? Yes. The CH administration would want me to tell you they abort far less than they used to, but I told the administration to do its own PR. We'll only accept zero, except to save a mother's life.

Laura:

There aren't enough police to handle 50,00,000 murders annually in this country. It would bankrupt us.

So what does our illustrius government do? They make one of the most heinous things a person can do, abortion, and make it legal.

Your smug attitude will be indefensible when you inexorably face the living God, who by the way is a consuming fire, to give an account for your attitude towards unborn children.

** the above should say

"NOW and NARAL is NOT doing anything about this"

doesn't make any sense without the "not" in the sentence...

My point is you give NOW credit for the establishment of birthing centers and their low infection rate. That's great, I will always give credit where credit is due. Obviously strict standards are adhered to at these centers and I certainly hope we would hear NOW expressing outrage and concern if appalling conditions were discovered in any of these centers. Why isn't this the case with abortion clinics, which NOW also supports the establishment of?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, back up...
NOW didn't establish any birthing centers, anymore than they established any abortion clinics. What NOW's principal lobbying effort has been is to effect legislation and to stand on the the insurance companies in order to better serve women's health - ie covering birthing centers.
The enforcement of health standards at medical facilities is a local matter. I gan guarantee that if no one speaks that nothing gets done.
(My personal frustration as an animal control officer was when I'd show up at a horrendous scene and a local would ask "Those poor creatures have lived like that for two years, why didn't somebody do something?" Then you'd ask them if they ever called it in, and they'd say that they "didn't want to get involved...")

Laura -

"(My personal frustration as an animal control officer was when I'd show up at a horrendous scene and a local would ask "Those poor creatures have lived like that for two years, why didn't somebody do something?" Then you'd ask them if they ever called it in, and they'd say that they "didn't want to get involved...")"

ACK!! I know!! I hate that! I rescued a dog that had been slashed with a knife down her chest and the neighbors said that the owners were always beating the dog. They never called to tell us! We found out about the knife wound because the owners were dumb enough to call us (Emergency Animal Hospital) and ask us for sedation so they could "sew up the dog". They were going to use regular thread and needle! ugg....

But back to topic - The 2 NJ abortion clinics that were closed down were reported several, if not numerous, times. The local Right to Life Chapter had called. Yet it still took approx 6 years for the HD to investigate....
(well, acutally it took a woman going into a coma and having an emergency hysterectomy AND her filing a lawsuit before they were investigated...)

"(My personal frustration as an animal control officer was when I'd show up at a horrendous scene and a local would ask "Those poor creatures have lived like that for two years, why didn't somebody do something?" Then you'd ask them if they ever called it in, and they'd say that they "didn't want to get involved...")

It's too bad you don't have the same compassion for unwanted human beings in the womb as you do for unwanted or neglected animals.......what a friggen twisted society we live in.

Heather says: "Frankly, no good doctor would agree to perform an abortion."

I know that's not true. Unless you say that any doctor who would agree to perform an abortion is not a "good doctor."

As I have stated, the very talented doctor who delivered my children also performs abortions now and then.

I know that doesn't fit your conception of the world, but I'm sure it happens all the time.

OK,

You said NOW was one of the leaders promoting seperate birthing facilities. You really meant that they supported insurance coverage for such facilities, but did not personally promote their being built?

I'm afraid I must back up also. By establishing, I did not mean personally build or buy any such facilities, I meant they encouraged their establishment. A poor choice of words on my part.

What NOW's principal lobbying effort has been is to effect legislation and to stand on the insurance companies in order to better serve women's health.
To me Laura, that's all the more reason I would expect to hear a word or two of outrage from NOW, as well as some serious concern from NARAL, when the above mentioned conditions are discovered in abortion clinics. I would also expect NOW to do some serious lobbying to protect the health and safety of women who walk into these clinics, such as licensing, stricter regulations, and more frequent inspections.

This story INCREASES my confidence in the abortion industry in the USA, because it shows that bad facilities like this one are being closed by the Department of Health (state or federal or both).

Thank you Jill, for showing by this story that abortion clinics in the USA are being properly inspected and regulated.

No wonder abortion in the USA has such low complication rates and such a good safety record overall!

If abortion were illegal, there would be no way to detect and shut down bad practicioners.

You cannot regulate a black market.

SoMG, Abortionists were prosecuted and shut down frequently when abortion was illegal. When a
woman came in with complications arising from an abortion it was obvious someone was responsible.

Heather says: Frankley, no good doctor would perform an abortion. Yes, and I meant it.

Valerie: We found out about the knife wound because the owners were dumb enough to call us (Emergency Animal Hospital)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HA! I'm a technician/manager at an animal emergency in California.
You poor fool!
(You do know that we'd both be making more money updating "well puppy" files at a NORMAL practice?)

SOMG,

Wasn't legal abortion supposed to eliminate bad practitioners? It doesn't look like the practitioners of legal abortion are any better than their illegal predecessors.
Rather than express your so-called relief about substandard clinics being shut down, you should be concerned about what kind of people are staffing these clinics and why they're so willing to allow and work in such filthy and unsafe conditions.

JK,

Imagine the look on the butcher's face when you come in to order 100 pounds of meat.

There is a scene just like that in "Bringing up Baby"...Cary Grant goes into a butcher shop and orders 30 pounds of beef. The butcher asks how he wants it cut, and Cary Grant says he does'nt want it cut, it's for Baby (Baby being a Leopard that Katherine Hepburn has somehow acquired!

Mary,
Kudos!!!

Why is it that the abortion industry does not regulate clinics enough to know these violations were occurring and correct them?

Because they don't care.

How long was this clinic operating under such unsafe and filthy conditions????

No doubt, it wasn't NARAL that turned this clinic in to the state. Thank goodness for the pro-life folks who are willing to take on the role of watch dog.

No doubt, it wasn't NARAL that turned this clinic in to the state. Thank goodness for the pro-life folks who are willing to take on the role of watch dog.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bull.
I'd bet SERIOUS money that the whistleblower came from the inside.

SnAG,

You cannot regulate a black market.

Apparently, you cannot regulate a white market either.

Oh Laura,

You're walkin' into this one eyes wide open...

Jill
Val
Bethany...

Ready?

Oh boy.

Mary, excellent post *points up to your last one* Sandy, Hello! Missed ya!

ATLANTIC CITY, NJ, June 27, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Human and Health Services has temporarily closed down the only abortion clinic in Atlantic City due to violations of state health regulations.

After receiving an anonymous complaint, city officials began an investigation on Monday of “Alternatives”, the city’s only abortion clinic, which provides second-trimester abortions. Inspectors found that the clinic violated health policy regulations in its “records, infection control and its physical plant”, Courier News reports.

Alabama Abortion Clinic Closed After Botched RU-486 Abortion

by Hilary White

BIRMINGHAM, May 19, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Alabama Department of Public Health has reported the suspension of the license of an abortion facility in Birmingham after a botched RU-486 abortion, using non-medically qualified staff.

In Alabama, only a qualified MD can perform an abortion or ultrasound. Patient A was told that the gestational age of her child was six weeks and opted to abort. The report says that a non-medically qualified staff member at the Summit Abortion Clinic gave the woman an ultrasound and informed her the baby was six weeks old. She was then given Mifeprex, the brand name of the abortion drug RU-486.

The abortion went forward, despite the fact that the woman’s blood pressure was “critically and dangerously high that (it) indicated a need for immediate medical treatment.”

Six days later, the woman was taken to hospital “with the head of a baby protruding. While at the hospital, (she), delivered a stillborn, macerated, six pound, four ounce baby."

Summit also allegedly falsified their report to say that Patient A had been seen by a physician on site.

The report concluded that there is “no adequate means of protecting the public other than emergency suspension of the (facility’s) license.”

WND Exclusive MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
Abortionist accused
of eating fetuses
Kansas City clinic closed
as grisly house of horrors
Posted: June 14, 2005
10:49 p.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A Kansas City abortionist is out of business after investigators discovered a grisly house of horrors at his clinic – with fetuses kept in Styrofoam cups in his refrigerator and one employee accusing him of microwaving one and stirring it into his lunch.

The unsanitary conditions in Krishna Rajanna's clinic prompted legislative approval of new abortion regulations in Kansas, a bill that was vetoed by the governor. Rajanna's activities have reportedly been the subject of law-enforcement investigations for nearly two years.

Rajanna first came to the attention of police in September 2003 when he called police to investigate alleged employee theft.

Detective William Howard of the Kansas City Police Department responded.

"I thought I had heard and seen every vile, disgusting crime scene, but was in for a new shock when I started this investigation," he would say later. Howard turned the matter over to the local district attorney and three state agencies.

Topping the list of horrors was an employee's account that she and others witnessed Rajanna "microwave one of the aborted fetuses and stir it into his lunch," as Howard recalled earlier this year when testifying before a Kansas House committee.

SANTA PAULA, CA—It took them six years, but students at Thomas Aquinas College helped close a Family Planning Associates (FPA) abortion clinic in Ventura through their persistent weekly prayer and sidewalk counseling efforts in front of the clinic on days abortions were being performed.

Florida Abortion Clinic Loses License Over Murder of Born-Alive Infant

By Peter J. Smith

HIALEAH, Florida, August 10, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Officials in the Florida city of Hialeah have revoked the occupational status of an abortion clinic that is the subject of a police investigation into the murder of an infant born-alive on the premises.

According to the Miami Herald, at Hialeah’s city council meeting Tuesday, city officials revoked A GYN Diagnostic Center’s occupational license, effectively putting an end to the clinic’s operations. However, the clinic pre-empted the city’s move by voluntarily surrendering its operating license to the state's Agency for Health Care Administration, ending its ability to operate in Florida.

''What led them to surrender their license, we can't answer,'' said Lorena Bravo, a Hialeah assistant city attorney according to the Herald.

The city acted to pull the clinic’s license over credible allegations that abortion employees murdered a child born alive in their waiting room at 23 weeks gestation. The doctor was not in the office at the time to legally kill the child before birth.

City police chief Rolando Bolanos had previously ordered the clinic closed July 29 pending a full investigation.

The investigation began when city police received an anonymous tip that abortion clinic employees had murdered the born alive son of an 18-year-old woman who had been waiting for the abortionist to arrive on July 20. Police learned that clinic employees placed the infant in a bag, and walked away. The baby boy was found dead 9 days later in a biohazard container. (See LifeSite story here: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06073103.html )

I could keep going, but I think first you need to show me where someone, anyone, from, as you call it, "the inside"has reported on any one of the clinics that has been shut down. Good luck.

Sandy and Heather4lilfe,

Thank you both. I will say au revoir until later. I will be spending some time under the inviting waters of Lake Michigan this evening, unless of course we dive somewhere else. Its hotter than the 7th rung of hell here so those cold waters will feel wonderful. Until later.

"As an organization dedicated to the reproductive health, safety, and rights of women, NARAL Pro-Choice New Jersey support clinics who offer a high standard of care to their patients as the vast majority of all health care providers do. In the case when a facility may not be meeting New Jersey state standards, we support all efforts by the state to ensure those facilities are safe for patients. This includes ensuring that the regulations put in place are in the best interest of patient care and not onerous restrictions manufactured by anti choice forces aimed only at clinics that do pregnancy terminations."

HELLLOOOOO...the man ate a baby. The inspectors didn't come for months. A woman died. A baby was born alive and left to die because THE DOCTOR WAS LATE...

What "manufactured restrictions by anti choice forces aimed only at clinics that do pregnancy terminations" is she talking about?

You mean the ones where we insist medical personnel are actually medical personnel? Or the one where we demand running water? Or how about doctors who have peanut butter and jelly for lunch instead of their CLIENTS?!?

You mean the ones where we insist medical personnel are actually medical personnel? Or the one where we demand running water? Or how about doctors who have peanut butter and jelly for lunch instead of their CLIENTS?!?

Really!!

I could keep going, but I think first you need to show me where someone, anyone, from, as you call it, "the inside" reported on one the clinics that has been shut down. Good luck.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excuse me-
Wasn't Jill an inside whistleblower?

I can guarantee that all of those monster inspections tend to come after an outside report. (My sister at Environmental Health relies on the kindness of disgruntled ex-employees. No one's more willing to rat out a former employer...) Who do YOU think is telling the Health Department where to look?
Do you think that the cops just "accidently" ended up on the roof of that clinic in Florida? Someone told them where to look.
Who do you think reported the alleged "fetus eater?" It was an insider.

MK, allow me to bring this up for the 100th time. Former abortionist Brian Finkel molested, raped, and fondled HIS abortion patients for years! He was finally charged and convicted of 80 counts of sexual misconduct. Not 8, not 18,.....80! I'm sure there were more than that. These were just from the women who came forward. Abortionist Lawrence Reich was allowed to remain in practice DESPITE numerous allegations of sexual abuse of his patients. Ivan Namihas was another sexually abusive abortionist. So was Dr. Ghali, and you think Dr. Reardon is a quack??

Laura,

I'm not gonna hunt em down and post em if you ain't gonna read em...

Rajanna first came to the attention of police in September 2003 when he called police to investigate alleged employee theft.

It took them six years, but students at Thomas Aquinas College helped close a Family Planning Associates (FPA) abortion clinic in Ventura through their persistent weekly prayer and sidewalk counseling efforts in front of the clinic on days abortions were being performed.

If you mean by insider, someone who works there, then you and I are talking about different things.

The accusation was against Naral and Now, two organizations that promote abortion and claim to advocate women's saftey, health and welfare.

They should be the ones demanding explanations, inspections and outrage...it's their reputations on the line. Not the nurses that rat out these foul creatures!

Heather,

But these were clients that reported the rapes, molestations, and abuse...you know insiders!

Phooey!

Christina was telling us about abortionist Ghali, grinding his aborted second trimester babies in a hand cranked meat grinder!

Laura -

From http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2MTAmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcwOTMyNTAmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXky

"The state's investigation was spurred by a complaint by a Newark hospital, after it performed emergency surgery on a hemorrhaging woman after an abortion at Metropolitan Medical. On Feb. 2, state health officials investigated the clinic."

This was the first clinic in New Jersey, MMA, that was closed. here is another quote:

"The closure was only the second one the department ordered over the last five years against any of state's 619 ambulatory-care facilities for "deficient care."

It wasn't very long after that that they closed the one that is on this thread...How many more do you think are out there?

According to New jersey CBS3.com

"Gloria Mozas of Cliffside Park is also suing the clinic (MMR in NJ), claiming doctors there wrongly diagnosed her tubal pregnancy in 2003 and told her she had miscarried, when in fact, she was carrying two live fetuses. She said a doctor there performed an abortion on her, telling her he was removing dead tissue from her womb. About a week later, she said she had to undergo a second procedure to remove the remaining fetus after she developed severe internal bleeding.

She said she was heartened the state had shut the clinic down.

"I've been waiting for those doors to be locked for 3 1/2 years," she said."

oh...and on there website:

"The clinic's Web site says its physicians have a complication rate of less than 1 per 1,000 procedures, calling its staff "the finest in the state of New Jersey.""

YOWZA - There's is the finest? Reasons it was closed down:

"State health officials found forceps encrusted in "brownish blood-like residues," rusty crochet hooks used to remove IUDs, and a quarter-inch of dark red "dirt and debris" under an exam table at an Englewood abortion clinic, according to records released Tuesday."

"Health officials found that the clinic "could not provide evidence" of an infection-control plan, nor an infection-control specialist responsible for day-to-day oversight. Though the clinic had a letter on file appointing a particular employee as the infection-control professional, that employee told health inspectors that he or she was not familiar with the letter of appointment, "not that I recall right now." The employee also had not been trained or certified in prevention and control of infections, in defiance of state law.

It also found sterilized items were not stored or handled to maintain their sterility. Investigators found that packs of sterilized instruments, which aren't to be opened until just before their use, had been unsealed and left open in storage. Elsewhere, they found open packs of sterilized speculums, scissors, forceps and clamps.

The report also found: "Two plastic open top bins of sterile forceps, speculum and gauze prep kits are stored directly on the carpeted floor next to the copier in the main office." Elsewhere, surgical instruments were found in the same drawer as light bulbs."

""There was a large dark orangish-yellow stained area, dirt, debris, and syringe caps found under the operating tables in operating rooms #1, 2, 3 and 4," the report said. "Employee #2 stated, 'We do not usually move these tables. The housekeeper cleans around the O.R. tables a couple of times a week.' ""

You work in an animal hospital too... Is the operating room cleaned after every procedure? or is it only cleaned "a couple times a week"?

Most abortion clinics are closed because of complaints from other hospitals when the mistakes come in the ER to be fixed.

Finkel's nurse testified against him in court. She admitted; "There were times I had to slap his hand away from a woman's vagina." " We [I'm guessing other nurses] saw him do the "Cl** flick" many times." "That's what we called it." "We also saw him squeeze his patient's nipples a lot." "It was very inappropriate." I guess these nurses really needed their jobs. If I saw just 1 female patient subjected to this, I'd call the police.

Our undercover investigation obtained over 800 taped conversations with Planned Parenthood and National Abortion Federation clinics all across America, which prove that Planned Parenthood and NAF fail to comply with the law. They ignore the law even in cases of child sex abuse where child rape is disclosed and acknowledged - not just suspected. These tapes have already been used in court by one state to defend their parental involvement law against a Planned Parenthood lawsuit. To learn more about this investigation and the evidence that proves that this failure to report is the policy and practice of these groups, Click here.

INSIDERS? I DON'T THINK SO!

In addition, an undercover CBS news team exposed Everett's clinic for performing abortions on women who were not pregnant. Since then, she has been an outspoken supporter of the right-to-life.

http://www.euthanasia.com/clinic.html

Ghanaian Woman Eunice Agabgaa entered Y&P Medical Clinic in New York. Dr. Abram Zelikman allegedly left the clinic while Eunice was in recovery from an abortion Zelikman had performed. Unfortunately the abortion was so bad, it resulted in her death. A friend who was present at the clinic testified that she pleaded with the clinic staff to call paramedics once she noticed Eunice's bloodied body and poor vital signs. her friend stated" I felt if I hadn't been there they would have wrapped her dead body and thrown it in the garbage. New York Newsday 7/9/89

Dr. Chris Simpoulous of the American Women's Clinic in Norfolk, VA was accused of scheduling dozens of women for abortions who were not pregnant. Simpoulous was arrested in July of 1984 following an attempted abortion on an undercover police woman who was not pregnant. New York Times 7/28/84.
http://www.legalactionforwomen.org/stories.html

Valerie,
Heather,

I love you guys...

It could very well be an inside job. Maybe the employee finally woke up, and got so sickened, that their guilt ate them alive!

Smatter Laura,

Nothin' to say?
I'm sorry, but you're not dealing with amateurs here. We know our stuff. We wish we didn't have to know half of what we do, but there it is...

I'm still waiting for one example where Naral or Now, either exposed one of these clinics or applauded their closing...

Ready when you are...

MK, that's when they tend to run off. The truth is vile and ugly. Ain't nothin pretty about abortion.

MK - do you think we should (again!) put that partial list of patients that died at NAF clinics and the NAF tried to cover some of them up?

I don't see NOW or NARAL doing anything for women's rights when it comes to that.....

valerie, I'd say do it as many times as you wish. I love my Finkel stories. After all, isn't abortion about a woman's right to a "safe" abortion? It's all about a woman and her doctor, right?

To clarify; I love my Finkel stories, because the guy MAKES my case for me. Simple.

Smatter Laura,

Nothin' to say?
I'm sorry, but you're not dealing with amateurs here. We know our stuff. We wish we didn't have to know half of what we do, but there it is...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry - I can't spend all day here.
You've got a handful of horrendous stories, but every industry has that. In fact, the next time you bring up sexual abuse you know EXACTLY where I'm goin'. (It always slays me when Catholics bitch about sexual abuse.)

Laura -

give me until tonight and I will provide you with a link from the latest independent investigation on the Catholic Church scandle. You know the one I'm talking about right? The one that proves less than 4% of all priests have been accused of sexual misconduct. Most of the priest that were accused were/are either dead/can't be found / or had already left the priesthood.

Do you want me to give you the number of NY teachers that have been caught in sexual misconduct but the administrators just shuttled them from school to school? Or how about the latest Baptists ministers scandal that isn't being reported.

I have to get my kids ready for bed and then catch them to put them to bed. I'll be back on after that...

OH - and before you roll your eyes...my information is from unbiased AP reporters or neutral news agencies.....

AND - I can provide more information on abortionists and abortion mills than I can any of the above combined.....I'll do that for you too...

AND - I can provide more information on abortionists and abortion mills than I can any of the above combined.....I'll do that for you too...

AND - I can provide more information on abortionists and abortion mills than I can any of the above combined.....I'll do that for you too...

AND - I can provide more information on abortionists and abortion mills than I can any of the above combined.....I'll do that for you too...

AND - I can provide more information on abortionists and abortion mills than I can any of the above combined.....I'll do that for you too...

Last time I checked, it wasn't just Catholics who were outraged by sexual abuse. It should be all of us! My agnostic, and Jewish girlfriends would both be outraged if I told them about sexually abusive abortionists. I would EXPECT them to be.

Sorry about the multiple posts...

I walked away from the computer to get brownies out of the oven and came back to my daughter pushing buttons.....

Well..now I know what happens when you push alot of buttons when Jill's server is trying to post info on here...

I suppose you will bring up corrupt priests next. For the record, yes I am OUTRAGED when I hear about a pedophile priests!

Should say pedophile priests. Excuse the a.

Valerie: You work in an animal hospital too... Is the operating room cleaned after every procedure? or is it only cleaned "a couple times a week"?
Most abortion clinics are closed because of complaints from other hospitals when the mistakes come in the ER to be fixed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is often the case, but insider information is always crucial.

The issue?

Jill got her ass fired for whistleblowing.
I once got my ass fired for whistleblowing.
Heck, the guy who exposed the Pat Tillman scandal got a dishonorable discharge for whistleblowing.

There must be a better system - much like the Federal Whistleblower Act - that protects well-intentioned rats like me. (It would help if if had a way to filter the bitter.)

As for the mistakes of other hospitals, THREE HUNDRED East Coast hospitals (mostly emergency rooms) were cited last year after the Norovirus outbreak. The stuff is nearly impossible to contain. Nearly 100 were closed for a time due to violations such as dusty air vents.
There must be some standard for the closure if a medical facility.
Rotting fetus on the roof - YES!
Dusty air vents - perhaps not...

Back to abortionists. I would only expect anyone to be outraged over stories like these. I don't care about your age, race, gender, or religion. NOW and Naral should be on the front lines when these things happen. Especially when they have the gall to carry their 'KEEP ABORTION SAFE AND LEGAL' signs @ every PC rally.

Here is a partial list of women killed from legal abortion... The dates pre 1973 are from states where abortion was legal...

Eunice Agbaaga, NY, 1989
Demetrice Andrews, GA, 1988
Mickey Apodaca, TX, 1984
Gloria Aponte, CT, 1986
Barbara Auerbach, NJ, 1981
Jacqueline Bailey, CA, 1977
Myrta Baptiste, FL, 1977
Lisa Bardsley, AZ, 1995
Junette Barnes, TX, 1988
Deanna Bell, IL, 1992
Brenda Benton, IL, 1987
Rosario Bermeo, NY, 1983
Janet Blaum, LA, 1974
Cassandra Bleavins, CA, 1971
Diane Boyd, MO, 1981
Mary Bradley, AL, 1985
Dorothy Brown, IL, 1974
Dorothy Bryant, TX, 1986
Belinda Byrd, CA, 1987
Janeth Caldwell, Al, 1986
Marla Cardamone, PA, 1989
Teresa Causey, GA, 1988
Claudia Caventou, CA, 1986
Patricia Chacon, CA, 1984
Colleen Chambers, CA, 1991
Sandra Chmiel, IL, 1975
Gwendolyn Cliett, PA, 1980
Andrea Corey, VT, 1993
Liliana Cortez, CA, 1986
Edith Cote, NY, 1991
Sheryl Cottone, IA, 1981
Twila Coulter, CA, 1972
Carol Cunningham, NM, 1986
Betty Demato, CO, 1980
Mary Ann Dancy, NC, 1990
Angel Dardie, MI, 1982
Barbaralee Davis, IL, 1977
Glenda Davis, TX, 1989
Kathy Davis, OH, 1987
Margaret Davis, CA, 1972
Sharon Davis, NM, 1983
Marina DeChapell, FL, 1978
Arlin dela Cruz, PA, 1992
Synthia Dennard, IL, 1989
Alerte Desanges, NY, 1994
Barbara Dillon, NY, 1981
Laniece Dorsey, CA, 1986
Tamika Dowdy, NY, 1998
Gwendolyn Drummer, CA, 1972
Anjelica Duarte, NV, 1991
Evelyn Dudley, IL, 1973
Sherry Emry, IL, 1978
Georgianna English, DC, 1980
Maureen Espinoza, TX, 1997
Gladyss Estanislao, MD, 1989
Erna Fisher, KS, 1988
Bonnie Fix, CA, 1974
Sharon Floyd, IL, 1975
Linda Fondren, IL, 1974
Christella Forte, MI, 1986
Jent Foster, CA, 1971
Glenna Jean Fox, NY, 1989
Jammie Garcia, TX, 1994
Josefina Garcia, CA, 1985
Marie Gibson, SC, 1980
Kathleen Gilbert, IL, 1974
Christina Goesswein, NY, 1990
Gaylene Golden, OK, 1985
Maria Gomez, CA, 1976
Rita Concalves, RI, 1984
Shary Graham, Tx, 1982
Doris Grant, CA, 1971
Debra Gray, MD, 1989
Norma Greene, NC, 1981
Carolina Gutierrez, FL, 1996
Angela Hall, AL, 1991
Sharon Hamptlon, CA, 1996
Arnetta Hardaway, GA, 1985
Tammy Harris, DE, 1997
Wilma Harris, DC, 1974
Sheila Hebert, LA, 1984
Donna Heim, CA, 1986
Lou Anne Herron, AZ, 1998
Moris Herron, CA, 1983
Rhonda Hess, LA, 1982
Betty Hines, CA, 1971
Shirley Hollis, AL, 1991
Denise Holmes, CA, 1970
Barbara Hoppert, CA, 1983
Mary Ives, CT, 1983
Karretu Jabbie, DE, 1989
Louchresser Jackson, TX, 1977
Rosalyn Joy, TN, 1987
Sandra Kaiser, MO, 1984
Elise Kalat, MA, 1987
Patricia King, OK, 1987
Giselene Lafontant, NY, 1993
Barbara Lerner, FL, 1981
Susan Levy, CA, 1992
Cora Lewis, CA, 1983
Sara Lint, CA, 1970
Maria Lira, CA, 1974
Suzanne Logan, MD, 1992
Linda Lovelace, TN, 1980
Elva Lozada, CA, 1964
Debra Lozinski, NJ, 1985
Dawn Mack, NY, 1991
Michelle Madden, AL, 1986
Sharon Margrave, CA, 1970
Gail Mazo, NY, 1978
Sophie McCoy, NY, 1990
Rita McDowell, DC, 1975
Myria McFadden, DC, 1987
Evangeline McKenna, CA, 1974
Kathy McKnight, NC, 1993
Lynn McNair, NY, 1979
Dawn Mendoza, NY, 1988
Yvonne Mesteth, SD, 1985
Natalie Meyers, CA, 1972
Sandra Milton, Oh, 1990
Mitsue Mohar, CA, 1975
Ruth Montero, Fl, 1979
Denise Montoya, TX, 1988
Betty Moon, OH, 1978
Beverly Moore, FL, 1981
Sylvia Moore, IL, 1986
Christine Mora, CA, 1994
Maura Morales, FL, 1981
Katheryn Morse, CA, 1972
Kelly Morse, PA, 1996
Loretta Morton, OR, 1984
Kathy Murphy, CA, 1973
Dorothy Muzorewa, IL, 1974
Guadalupe Negron, NY, 1993
Germaine Newman, NJ, 1984
Sara Niebel, GA, 1994
Maria Ortega, NY, 1970
Joyce ortenzio, CA, 1988
Linda Padfield, SD, 1973
Mary Ann Page, OH, 1977
Mary Paredez, CA, 1977
Shirley Payne, FL, 1983
Mary Pena, CA, 1984
DaNette Perguson, AZ, 1992
Erika Peterson, CA, 1961
Catherine Pierce, TN, 1989
Katrina Poole, FL, 1988
Yvette Poteat, SC, 1985
Vanessa Preston, TX, 1980
Dawndalea Ravenell, NY, 1985
Angela Reynolds, NJ, 1985
Jacqueline Reynolds, GA, 1986
Erica Richardson, MD, 1989
Magdalena Rodriguez, CA, 1994
Julia Rogers, IL, 1973
Rhonda Rollinson, PA, 1992
Allegra Rosebery, GA, 1988
Sharonda Rowe, DC, 1981
Stayce Ruckman, MO, 1988
Rhonda Ruggiero, OH, 1982
LaSandra Russ, CA, 1971
Stella Saenz, CA, 1968
Angela Sanchez, CA, 1993
Angela Satterfield, OK, 1990
Carole Schaner, NY, 1971
Angela Scott, GA, 1979
Jan Simmons, CA, 1978
Gloria Small, GA, 1978
Deloris Smith, GA, 1979
Diane Smith, IL, 1976
Margaret Smith, NY, 1971
Laura Sorrels, CA, 1988
Maria Soto, CA, 1985
Kathryn Strong, CA, 1972
Jennifer Suddeth, CA, 1982
Tami Suematsu, CA, 1988
Yvonne Tanner, CA, 1988
Mary Tennyson, GA, 1982
Michelle Thames, CA, 1987
Ingrid Thomas, MI, 1991
Magnolia Thomas,IL, 1986
Manuela Torres. CA, 1988
Elizabith Tsuji, CA, 1978
Cheryl Tubbs, CA, 1975
Maureen Tyke, FL, 1983
Cycloria Vangates, FL, 1976
Latachie Veal, TX, 1991
Cheryl Vosseler, CA, 1969
Gail Vroman, IN, 1979
Pamela Wainwright, GA, 1987
Lynette Wallace, CA, 1975
Debra Walton, AL, 1989
Diane Watson, IL, 1987
Ingar Weber, LA, 1990
Robin Wells, OH, 1981
Adrienne Williams, PA, 1986
Ellen Williams, FL, 1985
Nichole Williams, MO, 1997
Sandra Williams, GA, 1984
Shirley Williams, GA, 1980
Tanya Williamson, NY, 1996
Carole Wingo, MI, 1974
Virginia Wolfe, TX, 1998
Darlene Wood, PA, 1982
Gail Wright, NJ, 1986

valerie, that's a real shocker!

Laura -

"As for the mistakes of other hospitals, THREE HUNDRED East Coast hospitals (mostly emergency rooms) were cited last year after the Norovirus outbreak. The stuff is nearly impossible to contain. Nearly 100 were closed for a time due to violations such as dusty air vents."

Did any of these hospitals have rusty surgical equipment? Did they have blood caked on the floors? Did they have expired meds in the cabinets? Did they have an infectious control plan and someone qualified to implement them? Did they have proper fire exits in the building? Did they have qualifiied personal and RN's that didn't have expired licenses? Did they have hot water to properly sterilize their equiment? Was their autoclave properly calibrated? Did they keep records of their patients visit and properly document any problems?

Find me any of those 300 hundrend hospitals that have even half of the violations that one of the 2 NJ clinics had.

The point isn't "that other hospitals have been cited..nanananan" the point is that these hospitals are horrible and NOT ONE MEMBER OF THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT does anything about it. As a matter of fact they try to stop laws that would protect women from this very thing. I did notice that you didn't have any comments on that when I said it before....

Laura -

"As for the mistakes of other hospitals, THREE HUNDRED East Coast hospitals (mostly emergency rooms) were cited last year after the Norovirus outbreak. The stuff is nearly impossible to contain. Nearly 100 were closed for a time due to violations such as dusty air vents."

Did any of these hospitals have rusty surgical equipment? Did they have blood caked on the floors? Did they have expired meds in the cabinets? Did they have an infectious control plan and someone qualified to implement them? Did they have proper fire exits in the building? Did they have qualifiied personal and RN's that didn't have expired licenses? Did they have hot water to properly sterilize their equiment? Was their autoclave properly calibrated? Did they keep records of their patients visit and properly document any problems?

Find me any of those 300 hundrend hospitals that have even half of the violations that one of the 2 NJ clinics had.

The point isn't "that other hospitals have been cited..nanananan" the point is that these hospitals are horrible and NOT ONE MEMBER OF THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT does anything about it. As a matter of fact they try to stop laws that would protect women from this very thing. I did notice that you didn't have any comments on that when I said it before....

ACK -

double post was my bad this time...

I haven't even had any rum yet? geesh!!

;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday December 4, 2006 Printer friendly version Email to a friend

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Autopsy Confirms “Aborted” Baby was Born Alive at Abortion Clinic
Staff member cut the umbilical cord and placed the baby into a red biohazard bag

By Hilary White

MIAMI, December 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – An autopsy report has been released by Operation Rescue showing that a baby who died in a Florida abortion mill in July was born alive. Abortion facility staff placed the child still breathing and moving into a plastic medical waste bag.

Hialeah Police had previously stated that they were awaiting the results of an autopsy on the child’s remains before pursuing possible charges.

On July 20, an 18-year old woman went to a for-profit abortion facility owned by Belkis Gonzalez and Siomara Senises. She gave birth to a living baby girl while sitting in a recliner in the facility’s recovery room. The child’s mother, Sycloria Williams told police that she had watched her daughter moving and gasping for air for approximately five minutes.

The Dade County Medical Examiner report dated October 28, said that the baby died of “extreme prematurity” and lists no “contributory cause.” The report lists the “manner of death” as “natural.”

The report says that the child, who has since been named Shanice by her mother, then 22 weeks gestation, was delivered “and placed to the side. A staff member cut the umbilical cord and placed the neonate into a red biohazard bag.”

“Witnesses, including the mother, indicate that the neonate was breathing and moving.” The report says that children born so prematurely have 0% chance of survival.

“It doesn’t matter if Shanice had a 100 percent or a zero percent chance of survival. Once she was born, she was deserving of the same protections under the law as the rest of us,” said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman. “At the minimum, she should have been given comfort care. Shoving her into a plastic bag and tossing her onto a roof to die is just unconscionable.”

Read previous LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Baby Girl born alive and killed after surviving late-term abortion
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/nov/06110205.html

Go Here: http://www.feministsforlife.org/taf/1997/winter/incstdoe.htm

and read about how PP not only covered up for incest of a minor but were going to do an abortion on her when she wasn't even pregnant...

Valerie- I wish you would read some of those cases, especially the recent ones.

The most recent case that drives me bananas is the woman who had her laminaria placed, never went to her follow-up and died two weeks later of a septic infection.

Another that drives me nuts is Kristin Gilbert (sp?) A 19-year-old Down Syndrome patient whose father claimed to not know the source of her pregnancy, failed to get her follow-up care when she had a fever, and then REFUSED A DNA TEST ON THE FETUS.

Wisdom tooth extraction is still statistically more lethal than abortion.
Any invasive procedure presents risk.
Any procedure that involves anesthesia is risky.
Not following your aftercare directions is often lethal.

Christen Gilbert was mentally retarded.

As Pro-Life Jews, We Will Not Be Deceived
By 'Choice'

Jews For Life is an organization created to reflect the traditional Jewish pro-life perspective on abortion. Our purpose is to provide our readers with the facts about the tragic consequences that have befallen women and our culture since Roe v. Wade was enacted into law. Jews For Life maintains that life, both born and unborn, is sacred and worthy of protection. The current so-called 'pro-choice' position of mainstream liberal Jewish organizations is antithetical to the traditional teachings of our faith.

Laura, I'm not being condescending. I'm just not up for it tonight. I don't dislike you. I dislike abortion. We have already talked about Christen Gilbert and Edrica Goode. It would be nice if we could get along. It would be better to all be civil to each other. Do you agree? *Peace*

Newsflash! Bridge collapsed in MN.

Laura,
Wisdom tooth extraction is still statistically more lethal than abortion.

Please cite your source. This whole dentist thing has been floatin' around on this board for some time and I would like to see some statistics for deaths in the dental chair.

As to the argument above.

Val is right. We are not arguing that abortion clinics are the only gross disgusting medical facilities on the planet. We're not even saying that all abortion clinics are gross and disgusting (other than the fact that they kill children). All we are saying is that when a clinic is exposed, Naral, Now and other supposedly pro-choice/pro-women groups should speak up and be outraged. They don't. Why?

When the Catholic priests were exposed I was horrified and I am the first one to say so. I was more horrified (and still am) by the cover-up of these incidents. Of course there are bad dentists. And if there was a rash of them being exposed, I would assume that dentists everywhere would be pissed off.

One of the things that upsets people after 911 is that not enough Muslims have stood up and publicly condemned what the extremists are doing in the name of their faith.

It's not about whether or not these abortion clinics should be closed, or whether or not there are bad dentists. It's about the fact that they are not being exposed by their own kind. And they are not being regulated by the same set of standards that every other medical facility in the US is. Including veterinarian's offices.

While we would like to see ALL abortion clinics closed, until that happens we would like to see the ones that are open be regulated so that women along with their babies are not being killed.

If enough of them are exposed and that helps to close all of them, I won't lie to you...I'll be thrilled. But the primary concern is that these places are out of horror films.

The real question is why are you defending them? Why aren't you outraged with us? Despite our differences, can't we agree on this?

MK, I would also like to know. Why defend these "Bottom Feeders?"

Some people here have told me that I should NEVER compare the Holocaust to abortion. Check out the site 'Jews For Life' They sure do!

Hi Heather!
How are you? Thanks for miss'n me. Haven't had time to "chat" lately. Too much going on. Great posts tonight. It is amazing that everytime one of these mills is outted the PC side decides to divert the attention away from the real issue. Never fails.

For every one of these mills that doesn't meet regulations, you wonder how many more are out there that do????

Any?????

I have been away for awhile, where is Cameron??
Haven't seen his posts when I have briefly checked in lately.

Sandy, Hi back @ ya. I haven't seen Cameron for a week. I have no idea where he went!

Sandy, the problem IS that they claim to be pro woman. We know they aren't pro child. We know this, because the child isn't coming out of that clinic alive. So, if you claim to be pro woman, then someone please tell me why women are being raped, killed and mutilated by the truck loads. What's left? Pro abortionist?

Has anyone heard from Rae? I think she is in the mineapolis area and that is where the bridge collapsed.

I've been trying forever to get ahold of friends that live up there but the phone lines aren't going through...

Does anyone know anything? The news just keeps going over the same stuff show the same school buss that has the truck next to it on fire...I just can't look at that anymore...

Laura -

"Valerie- I wish you would read some of those cases, especially the recent ones."

I know i'm a bit off tonight, bundle of nerves from the bridge thing...but what are you talking about? What cases? I showed cases from NJ where a woman was in a coma, and another was misdiagnosed. I listed names of women who have died? I listed that abortion clinics are less sterile than the average barn. I'm not sure where your two cases fit in unless some one else posted about them and I missed it....(entirely possible that i missed it....)

Plus - you havne't answered any of my questions.

Who is defending the NJ clinic? I haven't seen anyone trying to do that, but MK and Heather keep shouting about it. Is ANYONE defending the NJ clinic?

All we're saying is, the closing of this clinic shows that the system works, and helps explain why abortion in the USA is as safe as it is, which is, very safe. Ten times safer than childbirth.

And if you think there are no horror stories about obstetricians, you are wrong.

By the way Heather you wrote: "women are being raped, killed and mutilated by the truck loads."

Not in the USA. There's a few rare cases which you bring up over and over again. Hardly enough for one truck load.

SMOG -

"Who is defending the NJ clinic? I haven't seen anyone trying to do that, but MK and Heather keep shouting about it. Is ANYONE defending the NJ clinic?"

No one is defending it now, but no one was doing what needed to be done to prevent it either.

As I've posted time and time and time again which no one has responded too... The so-called womens right pro-choice organizations do everything in their power to stop clinics being investigated. States have had to put laws in place to force them to lisence as an ambulatory surgical center so they can be regulated and those laws are being fought against. Womens' right organizations should be the ones pushing them through in order to protect women. Planned Parenthood in Missouri has even tried to use scare tactics to get the government to stop the law. They threatened that they would have to close down if they were forced to be lisence. They said they didn't have any money for the supposed 1 - 2 million dollars it would cost to make all the renovations so they could pass the lisence process. Good thing that backfired on them. What was wrong with the clinic that it would cost that much to meet the requirements? Also, the PP financial reports came out that showed approx 45 million dollar profit for the company. Plus, alot of people started asking why they couldn't do fundraisers to get the money..... Amazing that they haven't shut down yet...

Valerie, my screen name is SoMG. It stands for Spirit of Martin Gardner.

There is no reason to regulate abortion clinics that do first-trimester abortions as outpatient surgical clinics because you do not cut into the patients when you do first trimester abortions. Most of the time (manual suction abortions) you don't use a sharp metal instrument at all. At worst, you use a curette to peel off a layer of gooey endometrium (D&C).

An outpatient surgical clinic is a place where you cut into the patient. Naturally you need to meet more stringent regulations if you're going to do that. Like positive air pressure in the operating rooms for instance, you don't need that to provide first trimester abortion safely and effectively.

The effort to pass laws regulating abortion clinics as outpatient surgical clinics is a cynical effort to increase the cost of abortions, and is not motivated by concern for safety at all. The abortion industry overall in the USA is very safe, the envy of the world (with the exception of countries like Sweden).

This is one of the issues NARAL and NOW are correct about. I know they're knee-jerk always on the pro-choice side, but in this case they're right. Early abortion is too easy, and too safe, for it to be worth regulating providers as outpatient surgical centers. It's a waste of resources which will drive up the cost of getting an abortion without yielding a corresponding increase in safety.

There just isn't that much room for improvement when it comes to abortion safety in the USA. Serious complications from early abortion are very rare events.

The mortality of abortion in the USA is less than one per hundred thousand procedures. That's safer than administering penicillin. Ten times safer than childbirth.

I know many have heard, and heather as already mentioned this, but please keep everyone who live in anywhere in the Twin Cities or anyone who knows someone who lives there in your prayers. I myself have a lot of family and friends that live there. I have been unable to reach most of them by phone because so many people are tying up the phone lines. I was able to find out that four of my friends are okay, including Dan's brother. Another friend of mine drove on the bridge about an hour before it collapsed. Thank you.

JM, WOW! I'm happy to say that I did e-mail Rae yesterday. She is okay. You say phone lines are down? I'm wondering if it was a small earthquake? That was my first thought. However, they said there was some unfinished construction. WOW, 1 hour. I just can't get over it. I'll pray that everything will be okay for your family and friends.

Somg, You say that pro choicers aren't defending the NJ clinic. Maybe not. However, by not exposing this clinic to the absolute hilt and refusing to express outrage, it is the same as defending it. I want to know why NOW and Naral have never said a word. Why didn't Ms. Magazine ever write about it? Can you provide something to prove me wrong?

JKeller,

Now we're talking...changing your name and telling me about yourself has cemented you in my mind...and after seeing your pictures, you're workin' your way into my heart too. My husband and I dabble in photography. I LOVE your stuff. Oh my gosh, "takin' it back" is hysterical. And please tell me you shot those sharks in an aquarium! "Showdown" was a riot too! They were all realllllly good! You're also really cute!

How is it that so many of you guys are so talented?

Okay, now for the more unpleasant stuff. Why are you pro-choice, and what are you parameters?

And now for the most unpleasant stuff...have I told you about this son that I have?...oh never mind...

SOMG:

Keep on lying to yourself so you can protect butchers. You do not have to CUT into the patient in order to be considered surgery. You and I both know that. An abortion is an invasive procedure. You also know that. Anything that is done 'inside' the body is an invasive procedure which means that conditions must be sterile.

Just for you - the definition, from medical dictionaires, of "invasive"

"involving puncture of the skin or insertion of an instrument or foreign material into the body; said of diagnostic techniques."

Abortion fits that definition. If the procedure does not have to be done in sterile conditions without sterile instruments than your argument has merit. However the procdure needs sterility. What is it that you are afraid of? It's not the price. Wanna know how I know that? Because animal hospitals follow the same regulations and they aren't too expensive. There is nothing in the ASC requirements that require more expense. Unless you consider appropriate personelle too much of a burden.

But since you are claiming ignorance, which we both know is BS, I will provide you with the ASC federal guidelines:

(1)The definition of Ambulatory surgical Center:

Ambulatory surgical center or ASC means any distinct entity that operates exclusively for the purpose of providing surgical services to patients not requiring hospitalization, has an agreement with CMS to participate in Medicare as an ASC, and meets the conditions set forth in subparts B and C of this part.

(2)The physical environment must meet certain standards such as:

-Must be functional and sanitary
-Must comply with Life Safety Code of the National Fire Protection Association
-Must have personnel be trained in emergency equipment and CPR

(3)The medical staff must meet certain standards such as:

-Must be legally and professionally qualified for their positions
-Medical staff privileges must be periodically reappraised and the scope of procedures performed in the ASC must be periodically reviewed and amended as appropriate.
-Must have policies and procedures ready for medical personnel, other than the physicians, for overseeing and evaluating their clinical activities.

(4)A RN (registered nurse) must be available for emergency treatment whenever there is a patient in the ASC.

(5)Medical Records:

-The ASC must develop and maintain a system for the proper collection, storage, and use of patient records.
-The ASC must maintain a medical record for each patient. Every record must be accurate, legible, and promptly completed.

(6)The ASC must provide drugs and biologicals in a safe and effective manner, in accordance with accepted professional practice, and under the direction of an individual designated responsible for pharmaceutical services.

(7)Laboratory and radiological Services must meet federal requirements or if services are sent elsewhere that place must be certified.

Please explain where this massive expense comes into play? If the abortion mills are already doing the abortion in sterile conditions it shouldn't be a burden. It shouldn't cost too much. However, if the are not doing abortions in the required sterile conditions than it will cost money.

Give me a sec and I'll post the story of Mi Kim. This is what happens when abortions are not done in sterile conditions and what happens when medical records are not complete....

Heather4life,

I read your story about the baby girl born alive. The sick basterds put her in bag to die even though she was breathing. what a disgrace.

jasper, They don't care. God only knows what other horrific things have gone on in these places that the public doesn't know about. I am all for exposure. Jill exposed Christ hospital. Thank you Jill. I now know what a sleazy hospital it is.

I remember reading a quote that some feminist had written about a man who performed illegal abortions. Apparently he stated: "You tramps are all alike." "You get yourselves into trouble and then you all come crawling to the abortionist." She made it clear that women would "never go back to those days."........ It doesn't sound like we ever left.

The story of abortionist Mi Kim:

On November 16, 2002 a patient died. When this death was investigated here is what they found:

1. She did not order the appropriate laboratory studies nor did she document a history or physical examination

2. She failed to properly administer Versed - a short acting benzodiazepeine central nervous system depressant used for sedation. She used the Versed as a sedation and pain killer because she said the Versed put the patient under enough that the patient wouldn�t remember the pain. Because of this the court determined that her judgment and knowledge was inadequate to supervise a CRNA during an IV conscious sedation.

3. The patients pulse oximetry showed a reading of 70% yet she still determined that the patient had a pulse. Without checking for breathing she ordered her staff to administer oxygen by a mask and call 911. She administered a reversal agent for the Versed but failed to notice that the patient was in cardiac arrest; she made no attempts at CPR.

4. At the time of this procedure she was not certified in advanced cardiopulmonary life support or competent to perform an intubations. No one in her office was qualified to perform intubations nor did they know how to use the equipment on the crash cart.

5. She failed to document an operative report for this procedure.

After the hearing on this, the court order her to follow certain guidelines, those quidelines were basically ASC regulations.

On April 11, 2007 during a court hearing she agreed to volentary permanent surrender of her license. She did this to avoid further proceedings. After her court order from the 2002 death this is what investigators found:

1. March 6 2005 she misrepresented her practice as a licensed outpatient surgical and gynecological center.

2. She was found to keep inadequate controlled substance records.

3. Records on 13 patients had her, not the person administering the anesthetic, informing patients about the anesthetic and no information on who actually administer it. In 2 other patients records the anesthesia informed consent forms did not have a physicians signature.

4. On February 6, 2006 and May 23, 2006 a Department of Health Professions (DHP) investigator found the medical records to be incomplete and did not contain adequate progress notes.
- On 16 patients who underwent abortions the records did not show information on a follow up exam or the information provided was inadequate. Also, she did not sign that she had reviewed the patients� medical history before performing the abortion.
- Improper documentation for a patient receiving the controlled substance Vicoden.
- On December 19 and December 27, 2005 there is no record of a physical examination being done for a patient complaining of spotting and a patient complaining of a yeast infection.
- Patient History was not obtained prior to examination for painful urination.

5. She did not provide reasonable or adequate care to her patients subjecting them to potential injury or harm.
- She advised the DHP that it was not her practice to do a follow up exam if the pregnancy test was negative and no specific complaints were made, instead the medical assistant did the exams.
- She did not examine a patient May 31, 2005 on her follow-up exam after an abortion even though the patient had vaginal discharge and itching.

6. January 9, 2006 there was no documentation of a procedure performed on the anesthetic log nor was there a physician supervising the Certified Register Nurse Anesthetic (CRNA) while she administered the anesthesia. She did not maintain a log of surgical procedures that were done in her office by her or by another physician. She did not have the CRNA or the physician performing the procedure sign the log.

oh I did forget mention the first patient that she killed: On May 17, 1997 a patient went to her for an abortion. Mi Kim told this patient that she was 8 weeks pregnant. She started to perform this abortion based on her findings of gestational age. Well, long story short, after problems started Mi Kim did another examination and said that the patient was 24-26 weeks pregnant. The patient was told to go to the hospital and Mi Kim met her there. Nurses encouraged her to do an ultra sound to determine the correct gestational age. She ordered a limited ultra sound be done. It was then determined that the patient was actually 26 4/7 weeks pregnant. The patient had to undergo a C-section to deliver her stillborn baby. (Still born because the abortion attempt ruptured the amniotic sac)

You see, when abortion mills are regulated by the standards of an ASC they have to abide by correct medical record keeping, sterility for the patients saftely, and personell must be educated.

Would you like to continue to explain to me why abortion mills should not have to follow basic standards of health care?

Valerie,

Excellent posts. Thank you

This isn't anything new. About 30 years ago reporters went undercover in Chicago to investigate abortion clinics there. These clinics were in some of Chicago's most exclusive neighborhoods.
To summarize, in these clinics, time was money and money was the name of the game for administrators and personnel. One owner of one was a mortician school dropout, of another a former used car salesman. Unqualified doctors, most of them moonlighting novices from the local medical school performed most abortions for extra cash. Doctors literally raced one another from patient to patient, and didn't waste time on such trivialities as washing their hands or changing their gloves. I can't imagine instruments could be properly washed and sterilized in these circumstances. In this haste, anesthetics often didn't have time to take effect and patients who screamed in pain were told to "shut up". When a counselor made a sincere effort to help a distressed young woman, she was ordered by her supervisor to stop and told there was no time for that, they were much too busy.
Reporters discovered falsified medical charts and records, falsified pregnancy test results, and worst of all, deaths that were never reported as abortion related.

Heather4life,

Regarding your comment about observing the sexual abuse of patients. The people in Finkel's clinic who observed his sexual abuse of patients and did nothing, in fact personnel in any medical setting who observe sexual abuse of patients and do nothing, are every bit the slimeballs the perpetrators are as far as I'm concerned. Its unfathomable to me how any ethical medical professional would remain silent about such a thing.

Mary,

I think the keyword here is ethical medical profession.

Abortionist Finkel's comment to a 39 year old patient who brought her boyfriend to her abortion appointment. "Isn't that bozo in the waiting room ever gonna marry you?"

Mary, I couldn't agree more. This just goes to show you what creepy characters are employed in these kill mills. I think that an abortion clinic is one of the few places that almost got away with throwing a breathing human being onto a hot roof.

meant; would get away with [Florida baby on roof] above post.

I guess I have been lucky. I haven't ever come in contact with a bad gynecologist. The last gynecologist I had was the doctor who saw me through my pregnancy. He was a living doll! He and his wife were expecting a baby of their own. Every time he had to do a pelvic exam, he would go and get his female nurse. He never made one single inappropriate remark. Why would he? I just cannot believe the awful things I have read about abortionists and the things they do.

Valerie, Thank you for the post! I'm sure that Somg will be back to excuse Dr. Kim's actions. Amazing!

MK,

Thank you for the compliments! Yes, those sharks were safely in an aquarium. :-) And I'd have to know a little more about this son of yours before I could make you any promises....LOL.

On a more serious note......

My parameters: I believe that abortion should always be an available option, but not used as a form of birth control. I believe that there is no such thing as black and white situations. If a woman's health is in danger, especially mortal danger, she should be allowed to get an abortion if she so chooses; if she chooses to go ahead with her pregnancy than I applaud her and wish the very best for her and her child. If a woman is raped than I believe that she should have the right to seek an abortion if she chooses, if not, then again, I am all for her and her baby. I believe that taking away one right (the right to choose to have an abortion) could become a gateway to taking away other freedoms in the future (freedoms that more Americans enjoy). I believe that better education in all methods of birth control will ultimately bring down the number of abortions performed in America. It is better to make abortion obsolete than illegal.

MK, I just e-mailed you with a question.

Jkeller,

Regarding your comment that taking away the "right" to abortion would take away other freedoms Americans enjoy.
I lived many years before Roe v Wade. I don't recall freedoms we didn't have then that we obtained once abortion became legal. Would you please be more specific as to what freedoms you are concerned about losing?
Also, why would you want to see abortion obsolete? I can't think of any other rights we enjoy, like freedom of the press, religion and speech, that we would want to become obsolete.

Valerie,
Great info. I really enjoy reading your posts. Always very thorough and very well researched.
Great job.

I agree Mary. I think JKeller is making a HUGE leap by stating that making abortin illegal would infringe upon other rights we enjoy.
Sounds like some pro-choice rhetoric to me.

JKeller,I would also like to see examples. Not because it would convince me, just because I would like to know your perspective.

Was the same thing said about slavery?? Abolishing the right to own slaves gave rights to the slaves they never had. Just as making abortion illegal would give the unborn the right to life which they deserve.

Mary, Sandy,

I'm not saying that making abortion illegal would infringe upon any other of our rights, merely that it would become easier for select groups to declare things they don't like unconstitutional and have laws past against them. There are many still today that hate interracial marriage, for their own bigoted reasons. It may seem far fetched to you, but tearing down the barriers that protect abortion also tear down the barriers that prevent other freedoms from being constitutionally challenged.

Look at what has happened since 9-11. People were all too eager to give up some of their rights to privacy in the name of fighting terrorism. All well and good. But our right to privacy has been deteriorating ever since. Your phone calls can be eavesdropped upon without warrant or reason, you can't take a bottle of baby formula onto an airplane without being harassed, innocent people falsely accused of aiding terrorists are locked up without a fair trial.

Maybe its just pro choice rhetoric, or maybe its just because I'm in the liberal minority and I think about things in different terms. But I subscribe to the whole "give an inch, and they'll take a mile" philosophy because I'm seeing it happen.

And there are lots of rights that I'd like to see become obsolete. I think we can all agree that abortion is never a savory or happy option, no matter what the circumstances. Also, I'd like to see the right to bear arms become obsolete, by making the world a safer place to live so people won't have to own guns to protect themselves or their families.

JKeller,

I really can't agree. We have legislatures as well as state constitutions and the federal constitution. People and groups may want to change laws, actually changing them is another matter. I imagine there are those who strongly oppose interracial marriage, but I have little concern that there will be laws passed banning it.
Its highly unlikely the gov't is going to waste time, resources and energy monitoring our phone calls. Its always had the capacity to do so. They're going to be far more concerned about the calls of suspected terrorists. Also concerning the baby formula. There was an actual attempt to blow up a plane with material hidden in baby formula. At airports I've already been patted down, had my purse searched numerous times, my luggage has certainly been searched in and out of my presence, and I was told I had to leave items behind. My very elderly parents were detained and searched because their metal parts set off alarms. Personally I find this vigilance very reassuring. I am also reassured by the gov't going after suspected terrorists any way they have to. Believe me, the terrorists have no concern for your life and rights.
JKeller, if you're so concerned about privacy, I would be more worried about the miniaturized cameras that can be hidden anywhere by anybody for any reason. Now THOSE make me nervous!
If you think its bad now, had you lived in the US during WW2 the government could open your mail and if you were an American citizen of Japanese ancestry, take you out of your home, take away your business, and put you in a concentration camp, excuse me, a relocation center. The fact you had committed no offense of any kind would be irrelevant. This happened to thousands of Japanese-Americans. This occured under liberal Democrat Franklin Roosevelt by the way. Believe me, we have little to complain about where our rights and privacy are concerned.
Concerning the right to bear arms. That's another subject. I'll only say that I find it hilarious that Rosie O'Donnell marches in a huge demonstration against guns, yet hires armed guards to protect her family. I have no problem with that, except what about the rest of us poor slobs that can't afford armed guards?
The killer of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman didn't have a gun. Unfortunately, Nicole and Ron didn't either.

@JKeller,

I very much agree with you. One of the problems with the right to privacy when it is tied to individualism and 'free enterprise', is that it soon manifests itself as isolationism and a superiority complex. Its something like building a fence around your property, (heaving all your garbage over the fence), and then bragging how clean your property is compared to the neighborhood. This can easily be seen in the wake of 9/11. "This is 'my' disaster and I gonna fight it my way."

Sorry guys this is not only American and fighting a disaster is very questionable ... do you not fight a shadow ... your own fear?

I hadn't heard about the tiger, but we did have a guy who kept an alligator on the same property as his wife's day-care center. It wasn't discovered for YEARS. The guy who owned it said that the parents "just never go back there." I think you should always check your child's day-care center for potential man-eaters. It just seems wise...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I had gators for pets years ago. They're fascinating creatures. However, I also have enough sense to realize that they aren't something you keep when there are small children around.

Before I had kids, I did lots of things that other people would probably think was "crazy." As an animal science major in high school - I was quite comfortable around dangerous animals and thought nothing of taking the risks associated with handling them or entering into their environment. Once I had the girls though I stopped taking those kinds of risks because I have a responsibility to my children first. When they become adults in a few years then I'm going back to what I enjoyed doing before they were born because they won't depend on me for everything anymore.

Currently, we have 2 cats, an albino frog, a goldfish (to keep the frog company - my oldest daughter insisted that the frog was lonely and depressed so we just had to get the fish to keep it company lol), and 3 leopard geckos - 2 females and a male. The females are from the same clutch and are together in a large tank. The male has his own tank and we got him because we want to try breeding them eventually.

Btw, any facility - medical, food, day cares, zoos, etc. - should be shut down if it isn't meeting federal/state standards - that's just common sense.

My husband and I were talking yesterday when we were headed out to the mountains about our kids at camp. Being the typical "Mom," I was concerned about being over 3 hrs away and taking the "contact person" (my Mom) on the emergency forms with me since our cell phones won't work out in the mountains.

Anyway, the conversation lead to a discussion about parental consent/notification in regard to abortion and I was wondering what you all think about it.

My opinion on that one is easy - setting a legal precedent that allows a child to consent to a medical procedure is a slippery slope. The precedent could be used for the child to have any medical procedure without consent.

Welcome back LaBelleGrace or is it Garce? [sp?] I hope you had fun on your trip. I agree that the parental consent law is a good thing. Especially now that a lot of teens are "outing" these abortionists who molested them when there was no parental law in effect.

Geez Labelle,

Your taking care of alot of animals... but have time or compassion for a human baby if one should be created within you.

"My opinion on that one is easy - setting a legal precedent that allows a child to consent to a medical procedure is a slippery slope. The precedent could be used for the child to have any medical procedure without consent."

abortion is not a medical procedure, it's an execution.

I bet you voted Deval Patrick?

JKeller -

"It may seem far fetched to you, but tearing down the barriers that protect abortion also tear down the barriers that prevent other freedoms from being constitutionally challenged."

This is not true. You pointed out interracial marriage, so I'll stick with that. Interracial marriage is discriminated against because of bigotry. They have no scientific nor real reasons as to why they hate it. They just find that someone of a different colored skin is inferiorer, but they have no science to back that up. With abortion, even the pro-choice side has admitted that the fetus is a human being. They couldn't deny the science that proved the fetus was not a cluster of cells. They say that the unborn doesn't have the same rights as the born. If/When abortion becomes illegal it will be based on science and not bigotry. It will be based on ultrasounds that show a living human, and will be based on the realization, as was the case with slaves, that the unborn have human rights too. Bigotry isn't science and cannot be proved. Abortion being murder has already been proved and has been accepted. the debate now is when a person has the right to have rights. I cannot think of anything that would be pushed through needlessly because of this.

"But our right to privacy has been deteriorating ever since. Your phone calls can be eavesdropped upon without warrant or reason, you can't take a bottle of baby formula onto an airplane without being harassed, innocent people falsely accused of aiding terrorists are locked up without a fair trial."

What exactly is right to privacy? This is a real question. I have the right not to be blown up don't I? I have the right to be able to get on an airplane and not be flown into buildings. You see, 9/11 was NOT the first time america was attacked by these specific terrorists. It was what woke us up. Before 9/11 we kept our "right to privacy" and how many people died because of that? Trust me, the government has better things to do than listen in on everybodies phone calls. They are only doing that on suspected terrorists. Now, you only have reasons to be worried if you are in contact with a terrorist or a terrorist organization. You see before 9/11 we had the attitude that no "right" could be taken away from the American people. Alot of people blame Clinton because he didn't "get" Bin Laden when he had the chance. Hello? Anyone who says that has completely forgotten history. If Clinton had done that, America would have turn their back on him and hated him as they hate Bush now. Americans would not have understood as they don't understand Iraq now. American's didn't see the real problem because we were not/are not educated on this subject. 9/11 forced us to educate ourselves. We are now forgetting all about it again and think our own personal rights are more important than the security of a nation. That is really sad that we cannot see beyond our own lives and do what is right for the society instead of what is right for the individual.

If anyone has the right to complain about the security on airplanes it is my brother-in-law. His last name is Nasser. Many of the terrorists last name is Nasser too. And he is Syrian. And he has to travel for his job. He gets stopped every single time. He goes to the airport 4 hours before the plane is to leave. He doesn't mind. His family lived in a war torn country and he still has relatives in the Middle East who are in fear of being bombed every day. He says getting stopped at an airport is far better than being bombed, watching your children die and going to mass funerals. Which would you rather have?

"Also, I'd like to see the right to bear arms become obsolete, by making the world a safer place to live so people won't have to own guns to protect themselves or their families. "

It would be wonderful if we could make the world a safer place so we wouldn't need guns. but it aint happening. The majority of violent crimes are not committed with guns. Using your philophy on give an inch - Ban guns, then you will have to ban knives, box cutters, scissors, baseball bats, cars, ropes, heavy statues..... The only reason people look at guns the way they do is because it is difficult to "accidently" stab someone. It is difficult to "accidently" run over your cheating husband with the car... But you can accidently shoot someone. Once again it is education that is needed. Educate everyone on guns. There was one of the nightly news programs many moons ago that did a study on kids under the age of 10 and guns. The kids were placed in a play room with tons of toys. A real unloaded gun was placed in the room. Parents were sure that their kids would do the right thing and get an adult. They had discussed guns over and over again with them. They did 4 different groups of kids. I think there was 12-16 kids in a group. Only ONE child did the right thing. He was the ONLY child who had shot a gun. His parents had a gun in the house and they wanted him to know the power behind the gun and took him to a shooting range. In one of the groups one kid found the gun, announced to everyone that it was a real gun, then he pointed the gun at his siters head and pulled the trigger. He didn't check to see if it was loaded or not. He had no respect for the gun because he had never held one. He had seen one, but never held it. Educate the people, limit the kinds of guns that are permitted. Banning the gun will only make it more attractive to the crimminals.

oh - I am long winded arent' I? don't answer that! ;-)

LBG,

First of all, welcome back from your trip. I hope you had a great time.
It sounds like you've had some fascinating pets. I've had quite a menagerie in all my years of motherhood as well. I have only one pet peeve, no pun intended. I loathe people's dogs jumping on me and barking when I go in a house, especially when the dog is the size of a small horse. I think it is incredibly rude of any host to allow this. I've had my clothes dirtied, been followed around the house, been badly scratched. I mean, did I turn my children's hamsters, chinchilla, cats, mice, and birds loose on people when they entered my home!?

About the issue of parental consent. LBG you have missed some extended discussions. I think it can best be answered by asking you, the mother of minor children, if you would want a physician you've never met and know nothing about operating on one of your children without your knowledge or consent? How about someone taking your minor daughter across a state line, also without your knowledge or consent, to obtain an abortion? This is the situation where minors can have abortions without the consent of parents.

LBG,

One more thing. Guess who will be the responsible party who must pay all medical expenses should your minor daughter develop any complications after an abortion you weren't considered important enough to be consulted about? You guessed it.

Valerie,

You're not long winded. You're brilliant. A great post.

LBG, I think you already know that I am pro life. I don't agree with any abortion practice. [just to clarify] However, I did want to say that since abortion is legal, there should absolutely be mandatory parental consent laws!

I have just received an e-mail from my friend. I hear that George Tiller's abortion clinic is closed for the week. It appears that he is being brought up on criminal charges.

LaBelle, 4:47p, said: "Anyway, the conversation lead to a discussion about parental consent/notification in regard to abortion and I was wondering what you all think about it. My opinion on that one is easy - setting a legal precedent that allows a child to consent to a medical procedure is a slippery slope. The precedent could be used for the child to have any medical procedure without consent."

We agree, LaBelle. I'm pleasantly surprised by your analysis.

Belle,

I'm sooo sorry I missed you. I looked for you too, don't know how I didn't see you...

How were the mountains?

JKeller,

You're one of the only ones from our group of "girls" still posting (so you're going to get ganged up on for awhile...see, now we know who you are, instead f an initial.)

Anyway, have you seen any of the videos or pictures that we've posted? Of abortions being done or the babies afterward? I think we should start there...

John McD,
Sorry, love, but you are so gifted that your most recent post just zoomed by me. Please re-interpret?

hi carder,

the potential of just one human brain is astounding. Richard Restack made this analogy if we could take the very smallest particle (a quark) in the universe, jam them all together to fill the whole universe (30 million light years across), ... (a that number could be written with a '1' followed by a '0' written at a rate of a single digit per second), this number would take 4 minutes. Each human brain has the potential of ?????, that number would take 16 years to write at the same pace - 12 hours each day. And this is only if we think each neuron (brain cell) operated as a simple switch that goes either 'off' or 'on'. Most neurons can signal in 50 different ways ... and some even 1000. To me abortion support is supreme ignorance of human giftedness. [And this has zip to do with religion!]

He also writes a bit about the ultimate lie detector ... the brain apparently uses one path for truths and a whole different path for lies .... . So, hooked up to such a device a person CANNOT lie without being detected. It would force a society to be truthful ... so terrorists could simply be asked "Are you terrorists?'

I thought about what kind of society would it be to have complete honesty ... in police work; would a court system become redundant ... how about politicians; or folks in the media and school teachers .... Do people choose-to-lie as their ideal or seek-the-truth (which is an illusion)?

A gun (any weapon) is an excuse to use power to steer fear. The elimination of guns means we will have to put-in-the-time(effort) to raise good people. We put kids in front of an 'idiot box' for years and then demand from them subtleties of caring .... hello ... if tv-soaps raised them [note: prevalence of tv-personality names for kids] why should they be more discerning than tv-characters?

Belle,

I'm sooo sorry I missed you. I looked for you too, don't know how I didn't see you...

How were the mountains?

Posted by: MK at August 2, 2007 09:26 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi MK,

The mountains were absolutely goregeous! No black bears though. :(

But I've made arrangements to camp out there this Thursday. I'm hoping to see the mom and 3 cubs again. The cubs should be a little over year by now.

Sorry I haven't been around. I picked up the girls on Friday and have had company all weekend so I've had no time for online.

LaBelle, 4:47p, said: "Anyway, the conversation lead to a discussion about parental consent/notification in regard to abortion and I was wondering what you all think about it. My opinion on that one is easy - setting a legal precedent that allows a child to consent to a medical procedure is a slippery slope. The precedent could be used for the child to have any medical procedure without consent."

We agree, LaBelle. I'm pleasantly surprised by your analysis.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 2, 2007 08:42 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're "pleasantly surprised" because you prejudge people simply because they call themselves "Pro-Choice."

LBG,

First of all, welcome back from your trip. I hope you had a great time.
It sounds like you've had some fascinating pets. I've had quite a menagerie in all my years of motherhood as well. I have only one pet peeve, no pun intended. I loathe people's dogs jumping on me and barking when I go in a house, especially when the dog is the size of a small horse. I think it is incredibly rude of any host to allow this. I've had my clothes dirtied, been followed around the house, been badly scratched. I mean, did I turn my children's hamsters, chinchilla, cats, mice, and birds loose on people when they entered my home!?

About the issue of parental consent. LBG you have missed some extended discussions. I think it can best be answered by asking you, the mother of minor children, if you would want a physician you've never met and know nothing about operating on one of your children without your knowledge or consent? How about someone taking your minor daughter across a state line, also without your knowledge or consent, to obtain an abortion? This is the situation where minors can have abortions without the consent of parents.

Posted by: Mary at August 2, 2007 05:12 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My dogs are always properly trained. I started training dogs when I was 10 and one of the first things I teach them is not to jump on people.

The trip was great. A very relaxing day. Thanks.

In answer to the rest - I think that there should be parental consent laws.

Welcome back LaBelleGrace or is it Garce? [sp?] I hope you had fun on your trip. I agree that the parental consent law is a good thing. Especially now that a lot of teens are "outing" these abortionists who molested them when there was no parental law in effect.

Posted by: Heather4life at August 2, 2007 05:00 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks - it's garce. It's french but garce is an old term that isn't used anymore.

As for molestation - it's not unique to doctors that perform abortions and any doctor that does something like that to their patient should be in jail.

Geez Labelle,

Your taking care of alot of animals... but have time or compassion for a human baby if one should be created within you.

"My opinion on that one is easy - setting a legal precedent that allows a child to consent to a medical procedure is a slippery slope. The precedent could be used for the child to have any medical procedure without consent."

abortion is not a medical procedure, it's an execution.

I bet you voted Deval Patrick?

Posted by: jasper at August 2, 2007 05:06 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Geez Jasper,

Haven't you learned the difference between your and you're yet?

As for the rest - I hope you bet all the cash you have on that one because you lost, at least I have compassion whereas you don't, and abortion is a medical procedure whether you like it or not.

gosh LBG,

you sound like a fan of Josef Mengele. the Angel of Death during WWII, Jasper called abortion an execution and you said that it was a medical procedure. Jasper was not wrong, but because it is a medical procedure, does this mean that a medical-execution is OK?

You're "pleasantly surprised" because you prejudge people simply because they call themselves "Pro-Choice."

Oh...you mean, kind of like you just assumed that Jill pre-judges people because she is pro-life?