Innovative way to care for aged parents

family.jpgGot leftover embryos in cold storage? Now you can use them to keep you out of cold storage.

According to ABC News, August 14:

StemLifeLine, a California-based biotechnology company, is now offering a controversial but potentially life-saving fourth option.

StemLifeLine allows families to "develop" remaining embryos into "personalized stem cell lines," the first theoretical step in creating cures for a host of debilitating and deadly diseases....

"The embryonic stem cells could be used to develop cures for diseases like diabetes, lymphoma and Parkinson's," said Dr. Russell Foulk, director of two of the four fertility clinics putting patients in touch with StemLifeLine and a member of the company's board of directors.

StemLifeLine is offering what they call "personalized stem cell lines." Those lines could then be turned into treatments that could be specially designed genetic matches just for donors, Foulk said.

"The advantage of using genetically similar material is the decreased chance of rejection. We can already take adult stem cells from bone marrow to help treat leukemia but they have to come from relatives," he said.

The StemLifeLine website features a nice photo of a Dad, Mom, and two kids. Dad has injested the kid you can't see by syringe, a new way to eat one's own. But he sure feels spry.

And sweet double-dipping, Dr. Faulk. Not too noticeable a conflict of interest.


Comments:

Oh yes, god forbid that embryos that will never, ever be implanted be used to help ease suffering of people with chronic disease. I mean, that's just terrible.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 10:28 AM


You think I wouldn't sacrifice 16 cell divisions in a petrie dish to save my loved ones?

Fine - you let YOUR family die in order to save some infinitesimal wad of crotch product. Apparently you don't place any value on your family anyway.
DO NOT get in the way of ration people who love their families.
(You are aware that leftover embryos get dumped down sinks every day?)

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 10:39 AM


ration people

That would be "rational people."
This subject gets me a little animated.

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 10:41 AM


"infinitesimal wad of crotch product."

What a sordid thing to say.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 16, 2007 10:48 AM


Rational people don't kill their unborn children. Supporting embryonic stem cell research and application does not a lover of family make. If you loved your family, why kill off any children you created?

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 10:52 AM


"infinitesimal wad of crotch product."

What a sordid thing to say.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excuse me?
Every time you brush your teeth or scratch your ass you kill thousands of living human cells.
You'd let your family die in order to save a few cells in a nitrogen tank?

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 10:52 AM


Laura's right.

Posted by: Hal at August 16, 2007 11:23 AM


Fine.
Here's the hypothetical:

You are sitting in a Peruvian fertility clinic when the massive quake hits. You have seconds to get out of the building. You have time to grab either;

a) An eight-month-old baby, OR
b) A nitrogen tank containing EIGHT HUNDRED frozen embryos.

Which do you grab?
If you REALLY believe that the tank holds eight hundred children, certainly you let the one eight-month-old get crushed in the rubble, no?

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 11:26 AM


tooth scum and ass flakes (???) are not the same thing as our human progeny. Even if I was in favor of embryonic stem cell research, and viewed such embryos/cells as "potential human beings" (to borrow a phrase) rather than "potentiated human beings", I STILL would not refer to the products that are or could become our posterity as a "wad of crotch product". that's just downright gross, degrading, and demeaning. Of course, it's your right to say it, but Ick.

And, I do try to avoid ass scratching, at least in public.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 16, 2007 11:27 AM


Oh, fetus-hugging Mitt agrees:

The most unprincipled candidate in U.S. history strikes again.

Despite his ?pro-life? campaign pitch, former Gov. Mitt Romney owns stock in two companies involved in embryonic stem cell research, a controversial field of study he previously cited as the reason for his rightward shift on abortion.

Romney holds stock in the biomedical firms Novo Nordisk and Millipore Corp., both of which use human embryos to research cures for chronic diseases, records show. Many conservatives fiercely oppose the research because it destroys the embryos in the process.

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 11:39 AM


You're missing the point -- you're offering up a member of your family as human sacrifice for the rest. I certainly wouldn't kill my 8 month old to use as spare parts on my other 5 kids. Disgusting.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 11:39 AM


You're missing the point -- you're offering up a member of your family as human sacrifice for the rest. I certainly wouldn't kill my 8 month old to use as spare parts on my other 5 kids. Disgusting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, you are willing to kill your eight-month-old to preserve a blastocyst.

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 11:46 AM


These are embryos that will NEVER BE IMPLANTED. You would just let them sit in a freezer, preserved for hundreds of years, nothing but a few cells, with no possibility of ever becoming more than that, even though they had the potential to offer a cure for a terrible disease to you or members of your family?

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 11:51 AM


"No, you are willing to kill your eight-month-old to preserve a blastocyst."

There's a big difference between purposely destroying a life and not having the means to save one without killing someone.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 11:54 AM


"These are embryos that will NEVER BE IMPLANTED. You would just let them sit in a freezer, preserved for hundreds of years, nothing but a few cells, with no possibility of ever becoming more than that, even though they had the potential to offer a cure for a terrible disease to you or members of your family?"

That's a false dilemma -- you are saying the only choices are disuse or death. There is a third option, which is to allow those children to develop and to not create children with the cruel intent of never allowing them to grow.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 11:57 AM


There's a big difference between purposely destroying a life and not having the means to save one without killing someone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So you'd let your child die a slow, horrible death in order to honor the sanctity of a wad of cells that were headed for the drain?

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 11:59 AM


So adults who are trying to have their own children are obviously full of cruel intent. No more sperm donors, egg donors, and for the love of god, no more IVF. Never mind if it has provided couples with children at the expense of a few blastocysts.

There are TENS OF THOUSANDS of frozen embryos. Should we implant them all? How about we just force women to carry them for 9 months, then put them into our overcrowded social service program? But then, sure, there's no real problem with the fact that I lose an egg every month, or that my parents, who are sterile, still probably have sex. Sex without the purpose of reproduction! Oh noes!

Which pro-lifer here has a friend, relative, or spouse dying from a disease that could be cured by this? Next thing I know, I'll be hearing, "Well, they're old," or, "Diabetes isn't like a big deal or anything". Yes, it's much more important to preserve the possible hundred year shelf life of a frozen embryo than it is to preserve, you know, actual functioning members of society. What possible aspect of humanity of an embryo strikes you as more worthy than an actual person?

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 12:04 PM


The Angel of Death

Dr. Josef Mengele was the most active of the SS doctors at Auschwitz, the infamous Nazi concentration camp. Present at the arrival of all the transports, Mengele oversaw the selection and cremation of thousands of murder victims at Auschwitz. His name was known and feared throughout the camp. Several accounts of camp survivors depict Mengele as killing in a dispassionate, medical way "as though he were performing regular surgery… without showing any emotion at all."

Mengele routinely conducted experiments on humans, the most famous of which were conducted on twins selected on the unloading platforms of Auschwitz. At the end of the experiments, Mengele simply injected chloroform directly into the hearts of many of these twins. After the war, Josef Mengele practiced medicine in Buenos Aires in the 1950's. He "had a reputation as a specialist in abortions," which were illegal at the time. Mengele was arrested after he killed a girl in his abortion clinic, but an Argentine judge released him. Mengele was never extradited and presumably died in Chile in 1979.

####

I know this may seem harsh, but I believe many pro-choice people are capable of this kind of savagery, particully feminists and self described intellectuals. They are really lacking empathy and theres a certain hollowness in theirs souls that comes from self-pride.

Posted by: jasper at August 16, 2007 12:30 PM


jasper, here's a good site 'Jews For Life' Look how the Jews are comparing abortion to the holocaust.

Posted by: Heather4life at August 16, 2007 12:32 PM


"So you'd let your child die a slow, horrible death in order to honor the sanctity of a wad of cells that were headed for the drain?"

I would ABSOLUTELY refuse any treatment for my child that was the result of murdering another child in cold blood, yes. Never hesitate a moment. There is no difference whatsoever between that and murdering my 8 month old to treat my 5 year old. However, no child I had conceived via IVF or any other method would be "headed for the drain" anyway.

Erin, not all parents who utilize IVF leave some of their children in cold storage indefinitely. I recall reading the story of some celebrity a few years ago who had conceived via IVF -- then went back and implanted the two remaining embryos to give them a chance at life, too. The fact that there are "tens of thousands" of children who have created and abandoned is an indictment on our society, not proof that it's ok. There have been MILLIONS of children killed by abortion -- that has nothing to do with whether abortion is ok.

And to answer your question, NONE of us has a friend or relative who could be cured by ESC, since researchers haven't been able to cure anything with embryonic stem cells.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 12:32 PM


I am going to tell you all a little story. This is the story of my three day 'vacation' up to Illinois about a month ago to go see my grandparents.

My grandfather has very advanced Parkinson's disease. He is a huge man- upwards of 300 lbs and about 6 and a half feet tall. My grandmother is about 5 feet tall and MAYBE 130. They now have a live-in housekeeper because of a number of times where my grandfather, unable to control his movements, fell and my grandmother was unable to get him up. For my grandfather to get his socks on in the morning is a half-hour long ordeal. He can't shower on his own nor can he use the toilet on his own. His food has to be cut up for him. On occasion he will simply freeze and be completely unable to move until someone manages to jerk him in the right way. He drools. He is unable to smile. He used to be an avid reader, but can no longer read because his eyes can't stay focused and his hands can't turn the pages. Note that about 7 or so years ago, he and my grandmother were world travelers. They took me to Paris. He took me fishing and told me stories about his career in the Navy. Now I can hardly understand the most basic things he says. The condition is genetic- which means my mother may end up with the disease too. Do you really expect me to sit around saying that that's OK with me, as long as no cure means no 'dead embryos'? If medical companies suggest that ESCR can help cure diseases, let them at it. There's nothing else for those embryos. You know, if I were an embryo, capable of thought, and someone told me, "hey, if you let us study you, it might help us cure diseases that cause thousands of people to suffer, but you'd have to die", I'd say, "OK. I can deal with that." Seriously. If there's a possibility of helping thousands by sacrificing frozen embryos that otherwise get flushed down a drain, which would you rather have? Would you rather have them 'die in vain' or have them 'die' doing something that can help the world?

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 12:49 PM


Hi Erin.

"You know, if I were an embryo, capable of thought, and someone told me, "hey, if you let us study you, it might help us cure diseases that cause thousands of people to suffer, but you'd have to die", I'd say, "OK. I can deal with that.""

I too, would be glad to give my life to save others. However, only I can make that decision to sacrifice myself for me. No one else can decide to sacrifice me or you for us. This is what we are doing, though, when we choose to destroy an embryo for its cells. Also, to say that "they're going to die anyway, we might as well get some use out of them" is akin to using the data that the Nazis obtained by performing horrible inhuman experiments on their prisoners. While the Nazis may have some valuable information, even information that one day save lives, the way they obtained that information was through cruel experimentation. It legitimizes evil. Finally, this is an extremely slippery slope (as Wesley J Smith has pointed out) because embryonic stem cell research in practice is next to worthless (as far as creating cures goes). Human cloning is needed to create stem cells that the body won't reject. Once we accept this, we then begin to contemplate "fetal farming" which involves implanting the cloned embryo, growing it for some length of time, and aborting it to obtain its organs for use. It is quite a scary future if we don't put a stop to it now. God love you, Erin.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 1:29 PM


That would never happen, Bobby. At the point where we could clone people, we'd be able to clone individual body parts. So evil is searching for cures to diseases that kill thousands of people. I should say, well, my grandfather, my mother, they had good lives. Least I can save some embryos while they die horribly!

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 1:33 PM


Also, to say that "they're going to die anyway, we might as well get some use out of them" is akin to using the data that the Nazis obtained by performing horrible inhuman experiments on their prisoners.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You don't know the difference between culturing cells and torture-murdering human beings?
There is something terribly wrong with you.
(I'm thinkin' sociopath. Hide the housepets.)

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 1:34 PM


"So evil is searching for cures to diseases that kill thousands of people."

only if the search involves killing human life. which this does.

Posted by: jasper at August 16, 2007 1:36 PM


Look, I am unwilling to give up on people I know and love for the sake of some embryos for which the entirety of life is going to be sitting in a petri dish in a freezer. Pardon my French, but like hell. This is my family. They're worth more than a cluster of mucus-like material in a test-tube.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 1:39 PM


Erin, I am sorry about your grandfather, but happy that he has had such a wonderful impact on your life.

I read a few months ago that the stem cells in the placenta have a better chance of doing some good and there are much more of them. Not only that, but one company in New Jersey said that they can extract up to 10 times the amount of cells from the placenta as they can the umbilical cord.

Personally I believe that the whole embryonic stem cell debate is largely a result of media and political hype by liberals trying to get people all excited about potential cures from a very controversial source. I don't think they want to acknowledge there are other ways of finding a cure. If people only know about one option, and believe that to be their only hope, the political party that pushes this hype will get the votes and all the power that comes with it. I also believe that the media and politicians love to play with the public's emotions, and what better way to do that then to say that something will heal a loved one when in reality they don't even know.

I would love it if your grandfather could be cured, just like I would like my grandmother to be cured of her Alzheimer's, but we should not be killing a potential human life in the effort to do so.

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 1:43 PM


only if the search involves killing human life. which this does.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...And when you scratch your ass you kill human life. In fact, you destroy FAR more living human cells than you find in those steel straws in the nitrogen tank.
STOP THE KILLING! BUY SOME GOLD BOND!

Posted by: Laura at August 16, 2007 1:45 PM


Hi SH, where have you been. Missed you.

Posted by: Heather4life at August 16, 2007 1:46 PM


Laura, you like the word crotch too much. And scratching your ass. Please clean it up.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 16, 2007 1:50 PM


Hi Heather! I missed everyone too!

Actually I am 6 weeks 5 days pregnant and have been SOOO tired, I haven't posted, just read, before going to bed at like 8 every night. This past week I have had more energy so hopefully I will be here more : ).

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 1:50 PM


SH, Congratulations!! I know that feeling!

Posted by: Heather4life at August 16, 2007 1:52 PM


Thanks!! It will be our first and I think I am still getting used to the idea that I am going to be a mom. And since you can't really see any signs of that I am, I keep looking at myself like "am I really pregnant?"

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 1:58 PM


that should read "that I am" not "of that I am"

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 1:58 PM


First time?

Posted by: Heather4life at August 16, 2007 1:59 PM


*ahem* Congrats, SH, and not to be a killjoy, but you just said "Going to be a mom". Not that you are already a mom. Doesn't that mean that you aren't considering it as a valid baby or child yet? Going to be a mom...tsk, tsk.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 2:01 PM


Yep, first pregnancy.

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 2:02 PM


I think that if it really comes down to oneself or one's family member needing stem cells from an embryo, you'd hear a different tune from many people.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at August 16, 2007 2:09 PM


SH, congratulations! Pregnancy can be tiring, yes, but it has its rewards! I always feel much better during the 2nd trimester, and again towards the end of the 3rd. The other times -- take as many naps as you can get! :) The development of your baby is far more important than posting here.

Erin, I am incredibly sorry to hear that your grandfather is so ill. My prayers are with him, and I hope that very soon a real treatment will be available to help him and others like him.

However, I often think that many pro-choicers either do not understand or do not take seriously the pro-life point of view. The issue here, the real issue, is whether the unborn is as much a human baby as a born child. The differences between pro-life and pro-choice will NEVER be resolved until that issue is decided once and for all.

If an unborn child is somehow inherently different from the born child, enough so that his death is justifiable under any circumstances, then opposing embryonic stem cell research (well, supposing for the sake of argument that anything will ever come from such research, which does not seem to be the case) is stupid, pointless, even cruel. I wouldn't even consider opposing it. I might even consider donating eggs.

But if the unborn child is no different from the born child, then why on earth would you even bother making such appeals as the description of your grandfather's illness? It is sad, and I feel for him, but if I offered up one of my born children for his treatment you would think me heartless and possibly insane. No, the only reason that you would suppose such an argument would have any effect is if you do not actually believe that we are earnest in our claims that the unborn are living human children.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 2:26 PM


No, Michelle. What I'm trying to do is show what you're proposing. There's an embryo that will NEVER BE A CHILD sitting in a petri dish. It is POSSIBLE that it could cure a sick person. A real live person who is suffering. And people on the PL side are claiming that that petri dishes' contents are more important that living breathing human beings who are in serious pain. That, to me, is horribly skewed.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 2:30 PM


Thanks Michelle! Lord knows I love taking naps, so I certainly don't mind another reason : ).

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 2:34 PM


"*ahem* Congrats, SH, and not to be a killjoy, but you just said "Going to be a mom". Not that you are already a mom. Doesn't that mean that you aren't considering it as a valid baby or child yet? Going to be a mom...tsk, tsk."

That correct Erin, SH is a Mom already.

...I think Erin is finally starting to lean pro-life, this is good-news.

Posted by: jasper at August 16, 2007 2:42 PM


Thanks Jasper : ).

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 2:45 PM


your welcome, and congratulations...

Posted by: jasper at August 16, 2007 2:46 PM


"No, Michelle. What I'm trying to do is show what you're proposing. There's an embryo that will NEVER BE A CHILD sitting in a petri dish. It is POSSIBLE that it could cure a sick person. A real live person who is suffering. And people on the PL side are claiming that that petri dishes' contents are more important that living breathing human beings who are in serious pain. That, to me, is horribly skewed."

See, you just proved that you don't get what we are saying. This is not an embryo that "will never be a child." He or she ALREADY IS a child, and both of the options you put forth -- human experimentation and indefinite frozen imprisonment -- are unbelievably horrible for any child. The only humane option is to let the child grow and develop as God and nature intended.

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 3:44 PM


" You don't know the difference between culturing cells and torture-murdering human beings?"

Destruction of human life is destruction of human life is destruction of human life. God love you, Laura.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 3:44 PM


"At the point where we could clone people, we'd be able to clone individual body parts."

Erin, we can clone people... in theory. The way that works is taking an enucleated oocyte and "combining" it with the nucleus of a cell of the person you wish to clone. You have an embryo, a cloned embryo. The way you would obtain a body part is to grow the embryo, and right now, the only way we can grow embryos is in wombs. I'm not sure how we would clone individual body parts. What do you have in mind? God love you, Erin.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 3:49 PM


"You know, if I were an embryo, capable of thought, and someone told me, "hey, if you let us study you, it might help us cure diseases that cause thousands of people to suffer, but you'd have to die", I'd say, "OK. I can deal with that." Seriously."

This isn't the first time I'm noticing inconsistencies in what you claim you would do and what you have actually done. I'll just stick to this particular statement.

Stating that you would be willing to die for thousands of people...people you don't even know...and yet you weren't willing to 'die to self' for the sake of your son/daughter...your own flesh and blood...I'm still trying to fathom that one.
By 'dying to self' would encompass so many levels, well, you know that because you said you considered all the options. Letting go of the unsavory taste for children, the temporary 9-month inconvenience, and still living the life you envisioned via a slight detour takes courage. As does dying for thousands of strangers.

When you saw your blueberry-sized son/daughter on the sonogram, and got your curiosity filled, and went ahead with it anyways, did it occur that allowing him/her to live probably would have been the contribution to help heal the thousands you claim to want to have helped? Not trying to be inflammatory, Erin, because I have an affinity for theatre folks since I'm a Music Theatre major myself, and I've gathered enough hints here and there that you and Dan are theatrically inclined. It's a sincere question.

And another question I've asked but don't know if you answered: When you said that at one point considered names for your little one (but then you snapped out of it) what names were thinking of? Did Dan share in the naming? That's one of the fun parts of having a baby, I think.

Posted by: carder at August 16, 2007 3:52 PM


carder- it wasn't a baby. It was a fetus. I personally was always inclined to think it would be a girl and my name of choice was Lilith Rebecca (this is probably why I get irritated when people keep saying 'your son'). Would I give my life to save people I didn't know? YES. Would I give my life for a fetus? No.

Bobby- we have cloned individual body parts. I believe one institute has created an eye from a cloning process. I'll look for the link.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 3:57 PM


Erin, since Carder has asked, I wonder if you could share. Was it your idea or Dans? Did you do it cuz of school? Lack of $? I was wondering. * peace * Also, how do you feel? Any bad dreams or regrets? Or is it relief?

Posted by: Heather4life at August 16, 2007 3:59 PM


"Would I give my life to save people I didn't know? YES. Would I give my life for a fetus? No."

Returning again to the fundamental disagreement here -- whether a "fetus" is equal to a born person. Why do you avoid that discussion? Is it because you know that your position on this is, in your own words, "only my opinion, and... arbitrary"?

Posted by: Michelle at August 16, 2007 4:03 PM


HI Erin. Yes, we have cloned body parts, but as far as I know, they have all been from adult stem cells. I'm almost positive nothing has been done with ESC. We still have to grow the body parts using adult stem cells, but it doesn't involve destruction of human life. Check this out. God love you, Erin. http://www.stemcellresearch.org/facts/treatments.htm

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 4:06 PM


Look up theraputic cloning. It's a process by which a single organ can be cloned without creating a separate entity.

I do believe very strongly that a fetus is not a person until it is viable. I know that that can vary by a week or so, and I know that not everyone shares my view, especially not on this blog. But I still believe it and nothing has been scientifically presented to me to prove otherwise.

Heather- I feel entirely relieved. My decision was supported by Dan, but it was entirely mine to make. It was an issue of money, yes, of my continued education, yes, and also my own knowledge that I was not prepared to be a parent nor go through a pregnancy. Good came out of my pregnancy. I realized that I was in a bad situation that my friends hadn't been able to convince me of. Thinking about...well, it's a whole other issue. But I am relieved to not be pregnant. Someday, I may want a child. I entirely respect any other person's choice in my same situation. My choice was to terminate the pregnancy. If I had chosen to keep it, I would have still have been pro-choice.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:10 PM


Michelle- here are the issues.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/08/09/stem.cell.alternative/

We need to study both of them.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:17 PM


Oh, this is a good one. Tons of links.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/stemcell/

I'm not saying down with ASCR. I'm saying that we need to study both types of SCR.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:19 PM


So Erin, why did you not put your baby up for adoption?

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 4:28 PM


Because I didn't want to be pregnant. I didn't want to go through 9 months of gestation and then the birth process. I'm not prepared to do that yet, and I certainly didn't want to put a big gap in my education. College is rough enough as it is.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:31 PM


Erin, therapeutic cloning is somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) which is exactly what I described above. You create an embryo. Thats cloning. Once you clone, there are two options. Either implant it and or strip mine it for its stem cells. Also, the cnn link has three results that are potential (the "promise" of stem cells), and they are in rats or mice. There has been nothing done in humans yet. But the point in moot. It doesn't matter that ESCR has produced nothing, and it wouldn't matter if it could cure all the world's diseases. Embryology tells us that human life begins at conception. Anything else is arbitrary and results in "personhood theory" which is sick. This is why we oppose ESCR. God love you, Erin.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 4:40 PM


Lilith. Cool. I love unique names.

Well, then, Lilith wasn't worth it?

Posted by: carder at August 16, 2007 4:46 PM


Actually, basic biology has completely arbitrary boundaries on when life starts. Maybe it starts when the heart starts beating. Maybe when the brain starts producing electrical signals. Maybe when it takes it's first breath. It is arbitrary.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:47 PM


"Lilith" wasn't a person. Lilith was an idea.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:50 PM


OK, quick off topic note. Anyone like baking? Go buy brownie mix and Hershey Symphony bars. Make the brownie miz, pour half in the pan, put a layer of Symphony chocolate/toffee bars in, then add the rest of the brownie mix on top. Cook like normal. It's AMAZING.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 4:52 PM


Hey Erin. I'm talking about the fact that when an egg and sperm join, you get a being which is ontologically different in nature than what had previously existed. A person is completely different than a rock, a computer chip, a skin cell. We all agree that after birth, we have a person. When does that ontological change into person occur? "What it is" does not change after birth, or upon a heartbeat, or implantation. Once the egg and sperm meet, the egg and sperm are gone and there is a completely different being. At no other point during pregnancy, including birth, can one say that the being that resulted in the joining of the egg and sperm has changed into another being. This is what I mean. God love you Erin.

PS: Do people know that according to one Jewish midrash, Lilith was the original wife of Adam? Apparently she is now a demoness or something... Can anyone explain this to me?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 4:59 PM


Lilith was inside of you with a beating heart and all the "parts" necessary to grow and look a little like you and a little like Dan. She was alive, the size of a blueberry as you worded it,of course not viable, but she was there.

She's now down the drain. Or incinerated. I'm not sure what the facility you went to does with the remains.

Did you get to see the fetal remains in the Frontline Abortin Clinic thread? Can someone tell me if that was an arm or leg towards the top of the placental tissue?

Or was it an idea?

Posted by: carder at August 16, 2007 5:00 PM


"Go buy brownie mix and Hershey Symphony bars. Make the brownie miz, pour half in the pan, put a layer of Symphony chocolate/toffee bars in, then add the rest of the brownie mix on top. Cook like normal. It's AMAZING."

I don't bake, but I bet my wife would love it. Maybe I should start? God love you, Erin.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:05 PM


Yeah. Lilith was the original wife of Adam. She decided she didn't like having to submit to Adam and being treated like a posession all the time. So she ran away. God sent a couple angels to track her down. She said she wouldn't go back because she didn't like being treated like dirt. God now apparently kills 100 of her children everyday.

Lilith was the original 'strong woman'. Way to go, God. And you guys call choicers baby killers.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:05 PM


Well, I don't necessarily (read: don't) believe that Lilith existed, so I don't believe God kills her children. One of the doctors my wife works with who is Jewish didn't know that. I'm impressed, Erin. Are/were you Jewish? God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:08 PM


Your baby was not an idea Erin. He or she was alive within you up until your abortion. I don't know how far along you were when you aborted, but you should look back in the archives and see the pictures Bethany posted of her baby Blessing. Or just type in unborn baby pictures in your search engine. There are amazing pictures out there.

And God does not kill children – people are the ones doing the killing. 126,000 children killed everyday worldwide through abortion.

Posted by: SH at August 16, 2007 5:10 PM


Bobby- it's a myth. I study mythology.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:11 PM


Right-o.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:13 PM


Certain excerpts from the myth of Lilith:

"Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him."

"Lilith went to the Red Sea and laid down with demons. There she produced demon offspring at the number of over a hundred a day. God sent angels to demand she return to Adam. She would not. God then punished Lilith by killing one hundred of her demon children daily. Lilith in turn vowed to kill infant children, but would spare them if the names of the angels were above the infants. "

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:20 PM


So are you still a student, Erin? I'm a grad student at Dartmouth College.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:20 PM


Where do you find this? I could barely find anything about it. Is it in the Talmud or something?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:23 PM


Somewhere in Isaiah there's a mention of it. It's most noted to have come from the Alphabet of Ben Sira and the Zohar.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:26 PM


I study History and Classical Studies at Georgia State. After undergrad I'm hoping to head up to NYU to work auditions and get my doctorate in Classical History.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:29 PM


Cool, good luck with that. You'll love grad school. I don't know how it works for classical history, but I get paid a ridiculous amount of money to do a ridiculously little amount of work in mathematics. Quite the life I lead. I must get home to the wife now, though. God love you Erin.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 16, 2007 5:34 PM


Yeah...that doesn't happen so much with history people. Not a whole lot of great jobs in the department. Eh, it's what I love though so I'll do it anyway. If I end up poor, well, at least I'll be smart.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 5:37 PM


Actually, Isaiah doesn't refer to Lilith, but in the NRSV Bible, her name is added to it for some reason. It isn't in the original.

Here's the verse from the KJV, that is supposed to refer to Lilith:
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

I don't see anything that could refer to Lilith, especially when you read the rest of the chapter along with it:
http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvisa34.htm

See what I mean?

I have to say though, the story of Lilith fascinates me.

Posted by: Bethany at August 16, 2007 6:28 PM


Erin,

'ear, 'ear! hehe ;-)

Similarly, to major in art is also to take a vow of poverty, as life is so sharply reminding me this month.

Posted by: JKeller at August 16, 2007 6:31 PM


Bethany- I was refering to the passing reference in 34:14. It never gives you any aspect of the story. Lilith is added in some versions because of issues with translation. That's why the bible is so controversial in many aspects, because pure translations are extrordinarily difficult to amass.

Posted by: Erin at August 16, 2007 6:35 PM


That's why it's called the "Lilith Fair"...it's all feminists playing music and singing to celebrate their "break" from men...sad when you think of it.

Does it never occur to any of you that working with men to form a more perfect bond, instead of abandoning them so that you have "complete control" is a little counter productive?

http://www.lilithfair.com/

Posted by: mk at August 16, 2007 9:21 PM


I know this may seem harsh, but I believe many pro-choice people are capable of this kind of savagery, particully feminists and self described intellectuals. They are really lacking empathy and theres a certain hollowness in theirs souls that comes from self-pride.

Jasper,
My father earned 4 bronze stars in WWII. He was at the Battle of the Bulge and involved in the liberation of concentration camps after the end of the war. He was proudly liberal in his politics and completely versed in 'savagery'. Pretending that aborting embryos is some kind of savagery is ridiculous and makes you sound like a childish drama queen. Excuse me for being crass and unkind but you seem to exhibit a hollowness of experience and a lack of empathy for the human life experience.

Posted by: Sally at August 16, 2007 10:29 PM


Sally,

I said "many" pro-choicers, not "all" or even "most".... Good for your Dad, you must be proud of him. What happen to you? .... I just get the sense that you're a mean-spirited person, correct me if I'm wrong.


btw: My father also served in ww2, my brother in particular witnessed alot of death and destruction in Vietnam.... and if they were pro-abortion, I'd tell them that they were wrong as well......well, I can't tell my dad, he's dead, but I'll bet he was pro-life.

Posted by: jasper at August 16, 2007 11:38 PM


Just sad that some of you view feminists as dangerous or soulless and heartless, especially since a group of them are on our side.

Posted by: prettyinpink at August 17, 2007 1:52 AM


"Actually, basic biology has completely arbitrary boundaries on when life starts. Maybe it starts when the heart starts beating. Maybe when the brain starts producing electrical signals. Maybe when it takes its first breath. It is arbitrary."

It's arbitrary because you randomly choose a stage of development and label it "start of life" -- all by yourself and without any help from biology. I could just as easily label "when my baby weans from breastmilk" or "when my baby learns to walk" as life finally "beginning" now that my child is not so dependent on me anymore.

Biology never creates any clear defining line where before the unborn was definitely not alive, not human, not a unique individual apart from his mother and then afterwards definitely is -- except at conception.

Posted by: Michelle at August 17, 2007 7:50 AM


PIP,

I didn't say all feminists....

Posted by: jasper at August 17, 2007 10:37 AM


PIP, the word "feminism" and "feminist" has been abducted, which is tragic. Modern day feminism has frightened people away from studying an authentic Biblical concept of equality, imo. The first American feminists were to be proud of.

SH, congrats!

Erin, 2:01p, said: "*ahem* Congrats, SH, and not to be a killjoy, but you just said 'Going to be a mom.' Not that you are already a mom. Doesn't that mean that you aren't considering it as a valid baby or child yet? Going to be a mom...tsk, tsk."

Touche, Erin. Good eye. On a different topic, does it bother you that pro-lifers keep badgering you about your abortion? I feel like telling them to back off and leave you be.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 17, 2007 1:40 PM


Erin: you just said "Going to be a mom". Not that you are already a mom. Doesn't that mean that you aren't considering it as a valid baby or child yet? Going to be a mom...tsk, tsk.

Erin, my wife (who went to Georgia State) and I are firmly Pro-Choice, but isn't that really just a semantic argument?

Example: plenty of people think that the unborn are "babies" but also would say, "I'm going to have a baby."

When does one become a parent? At birth or at conception? Does it really matter?

Doug

Posted by: PorkLoin at August 17, 2007 11:59 PM


I am a parent to 5 children, 3 living. I was my children's mother from the time they were conceived. "I'm going to have a baby" can refer to the developmental stage that you are looking forward to. For instance, if my boy was about to turn 13, I'd tell my husband, "We're about to have a TEENAGER...wow, can you believe it, already!"

Posted by: Bethany at August 18, 2007 7:55 AM


@Bethany: My parents wept when I turned 13...they were so scared I was going to get *worse* as I aged into teenage-dom. Fortunately this did not occur (unfortunately it was due to meds) so they like to say I went through the ornery teen years between the ages of 9 and 12. :-p

Posted by: Rae at August 18, 2007 9:40 AM


Jill- don't worry, I'm all right with it. Skin like leather!

And Doug, it was an argument basically based on the fact that whenever I make something that could possibly be construed as Pro-Life, I get jumped on(usually by Bethany or MK). I wanted to be the one catching miniscule discrepancies for once!

Anyhow, I start up school this week and we're having some really annoying computer problems, so I may be scarce for a while. Take care, everyone!

Posted by: Erin at August 18, 2007 11:21 AM