You may recall Twisty Faster at the I Blame the Patriarchy blog.

On Sunday Twisty verbally clubbed a "troglodyte" bill in OH that would require written informed consent from a father before aborting. And cavemen did not write this bill. Twisty complained they plugged all the loopholes:

Don't know who the father is? You have to buy paternity tests for the usual suspects. Were you raped? Relive the experience by providing proof of this to your abortion provider. Think you'll get your best gay dude friend to fake consent for you? It's "abortion fraud," a first degree misdemeanor. If you commit a second abortion fraud, it's a felony.

Let's park on rape....

Twisty apparently thinks it better to let these Neanderthals remain free to prowl the countryside for their next victim (or her again) rather than force a pregnant mother to "relive the experience" by reporting the crime.

Commenter CafeSiren provided the most interesting logic:

Right - because when an underaged girl is raped by a member of her household, or a grown woman is raped by a friend, boyfriend, or coworker, they're gonna go straight to the police. Because not a one of them will have internalized the culture of patriarchy to the point where standing up for themselves in the face of male violence is difficult or impossible to contemplate, nor will they fear ridicule or retribution from male family members, coworkers, friends, and authorities (including the mostly-male police).

So the superior alternatives to reporting incest or rape to the police are for an underage victim to get an abortion and return to the incest perpetrator's home, or for the violent rape victim to get the abortion and leave the criminal on the street to rape her again and/or beat her and/or kill her.

Do I have that right?

Lots of women report when they've been raped. I don't see why they would need to go and ask the rapist's consent to get an abortion.

You hear about women all the time who report a rape and then get their names dragged in the mud because they weren't a pure as the driven snow virgin. This causes sexually active women who have been raped to be very wary about reporting it.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't. These bastards need to be thrown in jail. I'm just saying I would understand a woman's reasoning for not wanting to report it.

Why don't they just send women home with a "rape me, I won't tell" sign when they are done too. They are giving men the green light to, no, encouraging men to treat women like dirt.

Look at the whole Kobe Bryant ordeal. The girl reported it, she got her named dragged in the mud, not only in court but in the media. It was a regular everyday story on ESPN. The basketball hero and the whore who dared to accuse him of a crime. After they managed to leak her name to the press and waved around her dirty underwear and discredited her as a slut and a money grubbing whore, I'm sure she wished she had kept quiet. More people treat her like dirt now.

JKeller and Rosie,

How right you both are as to how rape victims are treated. What I have referred to time and again as our society's Neanderthal mentality toward rape and its victims. When a teenage girl in our community charged she was raped by a member of the NFL, what the stupid oaf was doing at a party with a bunch of high school girls is beyond me, you should have heard the comments. I got so furious I very loudly told a male co-worker "I don't care if a woman is the whore of Babylon, she has the right to say no!" He was quite taken aback by my anger but I've about had it with that disgusting mentality.
To me, the biggest problems where rape is concerned is the degrading treatment of the victims, and the lenient treatment of the offenders.

Right, Mary, they think because a woman *gasp* likes to have sex, that she would like to have sex with everyone and is thus incapable of being raped. The girl in the Kobe Bryant trial, they tried to say she wasn't raped because she had had sex earlier in the day. It wouldn't matter if a woman had consensual sex 99 times in one day, if she said no the 100th time it is still rape.

Why don't they just send women home with a "rape me, I won't tell" sign when they are done too. They are giving men the green light to, no, encouraging men to treat women like dirt.
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So Rosie, you are into the blame the victim game. If a woman is raped and doesn't report it, she must have asked for it? The rapist was motivated to an act of violence because she is a woman? How does that work for men that are raped?

JKeller,

They aren't asking the women to get permission from their rapists...they are making sure that the woman has truly been raped and not just saying that to get the abortion...They're not going to contact the rapist. Except of course to arrest him.

It appears pro-aborts have a problem with rape prosecution.

Sally,

Yes, Rosie and I both feel that way. All women deserve to be raped...DUH! WOMAN! Do you even read the posts or just pull rude comments out of a hat, hoping they fit the general topic.

She means that if a woman is raped and goes to an abortion clinic and the clinic doesn't report the rape, then, she might as well go back home with a "RAPE ME, I WON'T TELL" sign on her back...

It's you and the pro choice crowd that wants abortions and rapes to be all hush-hush that are getting women re-raped!

Honestly Sally, I'm beginning to think that you were molested as a child by your father the priest, raised by a mother you called "mommy dearest", had 11 abortions (9 of which were forced on you) were dumped by your boyfriend at the altar and forced to sleep in the basement and eat out of a dog dish.

Other than this sort of abuse, I can't imagine why else you would be so bitter...has anything good EVER happened to you? Do you need to talk about it?

Right - because when an underaged girl is raped by a member of her household, or a grown woman is raped by a friend, boyfriend, or coworker, they're gonna go straight to the police. Because not a one of them will have internalized the culture of patriarchy to the point where standing up for themselves in the face of male violence is difficult or impossible to contemplate, nor will they fear ridicule or retribution from male family members, coworkers, friends, and authorities (including the mostly-male police).

So the superior alternatives to reporting incest or rape to the police are for an underage victim to get an abortion and return to the incest perpetrator's home, or for the violent rape victim to get the abortion and leave the criminal on the street to rape her again and/or beat her and/or kill her.

Do I have that right?
...................................................................................................

What is your solution Jill? What is your plan to empower and protect every victim of rape or incest? Why do you think that it is the victim's responsibility to prevent violent criminals from acting upon their violent urges? What does this have to do with abortion any way? Many victims are male. Many female victims are not old enough or too old to be concerned with the added horror of a rape/incest pregnancy.
I find you quite insensitve to such victims and more than a little foolish over the concept that a sperm donor to an unwanted pregnancy should have any say in what happens to a woman's body. Especially in the case of those that have already shown such lack of respect. Do you more closely relate to a rapist than you do to women?

They aren't asking the women to get permission from their rapists...they are making sure that the woman has truly been raped and not just saying that to get the abortion...They're not going to contact the rapist. Except of course to arrest him.

...................................................................................................

Uh huh mk. While a rape victim is waiting a year or two to get declared a rape victim in our overloaded court systems.... because you know that women only 'cry' rape if they don't want to be pregnant....well she'll be stuck with giving birth to the spawn of satan's progeny. If the criminal is never caught, the woman is stuck with an unwanted reminder of her assault. If the criminal is caught he can demand visitation of his product of violence. Charming.

Sally,

Yes, Rosie and I both feel that way. All women deserve to be raped...DUH! WOMAN! Do you even read the posts or just pull rude comments out of a hat, hoping they fit the general topic.

She means that if a woman is raped and goes to an abortion clinic and the clinic doesn't report the rape, then, she might as well go back home with a "RAPE ME, I WON'T TELL" sign on her back...

It's you and the pro choice crowd that wants abortions and rapes to be all hush-hush that are getting women re-raped!

Honestly Sally, I'm beginning to think that you were molested as a child by your father the priest, raised by a mother you called "mommy dearest", had 11 abortions (9 of which were forced on you) were dumped by your boyfriend at the altar and forced to sleep in the basement and eat out of a dog dish.

Other than this sort of abuse, I can't imagine why else you would be so bitter...has anything good EVER happened to you? Do you need to talk about it?
...................................................................................................

My my mk. I think that you have some issues of your own. Most of them dealing with lack of maturity and experience of life.
Your concept of a medical facility being used as a law enforcement facility is remarkably foolish. Why do you PL folks believe than OB/GYNS need to act as the police? Why aren't you pushing for serious DV and sex offender law enforcement if you are the least bit interested in the subject? Too complicated for you? Can't sort everyone involved either good ot bad?

If you were in the least bit interested in my life experiences mk, I would share. You aren't and think that you know it all. Yes, I'm a big meanyhead to thoughtless children.

Do I have that right?

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Typical disregard for the emotional and psychological welfare of the woman .......

It appears pro-aborts have a problem with rape prosecution.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 21, 2007 6:25 PM
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I have a problem with treating women like crap and not caring about her emotional and psychological welfare. You obviously have no problem with that at all.

Why should a woman have to have a mans 'consent' before she has an abortion? The CAVEMAN is the one who came up with that absurd idea.

Sally,

Yes, I'm a big meanyhead to thoughtless children.

Well now, I wouldn't know about that, but on here you sure do come across as trashy. I don't know anything about you except the way you present yourself here, and that is not a pretty picture. Unfortunate too, because there are many people on this site that would have been more than willing to have a "real" discussion. Why is that so difficult for you?

I understand that you and Laura and Texas go back to your other website and make each other feel good about how clever you are and how you "showed" us...but the only thing you really showed us is how very bitter and unhappy you seem.

While my offer above was made in sarcasm, my offer now is sincere. Everyone here would love you to become a permanent member of this "team", but we are asking you to stop with the posturing. It's abrasive and makes it very difficult to "hear" what you are saying. Is being respectful really all that hard for you? If it is, I mean if you really do have a hard time relating to people, we can make allowances, but first you have to let us know that you don't mean to be so offensive. Otherwise, I'm afraid people are just going to avoid responding to you. And that would be a shame because like I said, underneath all that false bravado, there is probably a very interesting lady...why not share her with us?

Back in the mid 70s my favorite cousin was raped. She was living by herself in Austin. Apparently someone broke into her apartment intending to burgle the place, realized a single woman lived there, so he stayed until she got home and didnt leave until the next morning. She called the police immediately. She later said that what the police put her through was worse than the rape itself and lasted a great deal longer. Condemning a woman because she is too traumatized to report a rape or cant deal with the trauma brought on by the people around her is another example of how little compassion and regard antichoicers have for the victims of rape and incest. It doesnt matter how a woman got pregnant - if she was raped or it was consentual sex. She has the right to end a pregnancy if she knows thats what is best for her and trying to pretend 'you' are in a position to second guess her and contradict her is arrogance beyond imagining.

In answer to you question about OB/Gyns being the police...I taught school for 12 years and I was required by law to report any suspicious activity that I saw...bruises, or weird behavior...I could have gone to jail for turning a blind eye.

My pediatrician is required to do the same thing. So are people in hospitals. If a woman comes in and is battered, they are required to report it.

Why should OB/GYN's be any different. I would think that whenever and wherever you saw a woman being abused, you would want it reported. Am I wrong?

I understand that you and Laura and Texas go back to your other website and make each other feel good about how clever you are and how you "showed" us...but the only thing you really showed us is how very bitter and unhappy you seem.

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No, thats one more lie you have to tell yourself because you arent able to deal with this actual discussion. You have no problem at all with the imbecilic bitter hatefilled unhappy comments antichoicers make. But you have to pretend that anyone who is pro choice just has to have something wrong with them. Youre a hypocrite. It comes with the teritory.

TexasRed,

That was a good post. You get a point back. No name calling, (well maybe a little at the end, but who's counting) and you actually got your point across.

It is horrible that women are treated like garbage after a rape. I was raped myself and never reported it for the same reasons you stated. I agree wholeheartedly with you that this must be changed.

got any ideas?

Texas,

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No, thats one more lie you have to tell yourself because you arent able to deal with this actual discussion. You have no problem at all with the imbecilic bitter hatefilled unhappy comments antichoicers make. But you have to pretend that anyone who is pro choice just has to have something wrong with them. Youre a hypocrite. It comes with the teritory.

Please show me where on this site any pro life person has treated you rudely, unfairly or with hate...seriously, as a moderator it is my job to make sure that this doesn't happen. It matters not to me which side you are on, if you are abusive, I will tell you so...so please, show me who is being abusive.

Women should never have to prove anything to access an abortion.

How archaic to to consider such an option in any way valid.

Disgusting to think that women have to relive their rape to rid themselves of an unwanted fetus.

Sheesh!

TexasRed,

That was a good post. You get a point back. No name calling, (well maybe a little at the end, but who's counting) and you actually got your point across.

It is horrible that women are treated like garbage after a rape. I was raped myself and never reported it for the same reasons you stated. I agree wholeheartedly with you that this must be changed.

got any ideas?

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Forcing them to report the rape certainly isnt going to accomplish anything positive. I think thinks are gradually changing now that DNA evidence makes it possible to definitely identify a rapist - back when my cousin was raped rape was a crime that was very difficult to prove and that had to be frustrating for law enforcement. I think another issue is how often it is NOT a case of stranger rape. We have women who are raped by a brother in law or their best friends brother or uncle or their mothers boyfriend and you have women who choose to not report the rape because it will tear apart the families. My cousins sister was raped by another one of our cousins. She didnt report that because of what it would have done to all the people she loved. But bullying women who have already been victimized and brutalized and humiliated is not going to do any one any good.

Please show me where on this site any pro life person has treated you rudely, unfairly or with hate...seriously, as a moderator it is my job to make sure that this doesn't happen. It matters not to me which side you are on, if you are abusive, I will tell you so...so please, show me who is being abusive.

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Youve got to be kidding. I know antichoicers cant survive without blinders but you really take the cake.

Texas Red,

What happened to your cousin was horrific. It seems though she was mostly traumatized by the police and their complete lack of any sensitivity, typical for the middle 70's and earlier. Thankfully things have changed radically. A woman reporting a rape, at least in our city, will have the assistance of a female police officer, and a volunteer especially trained to assist and support her through the entire process of issuing a police report, the examination, trial, etc. The treatment of the rape victim is considerably more sensitive than it was 30 years ago, and is certainly long overdue. Tragically this help was not available to your cousin and as such, she was only further traumatized.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that unreported rape only benefits the attacker. He's free to victimize again and again, and will. The police may even know who it is. His next victim may end up dead. If anything, women should be encouraged to report rape, and the support, help, and counselling the woman needs must also be made available to her.

TexasRed,

Those are actually some really good points. I would not have thought of it that way if you hadn't pointed it out.

However, I'm still uncomfortable with covering the crime up...

There must be a way to make it easier for women to report a rape without it destroying her life...the rapist has already done that...It just seems like "getting" rid of the "evidence/baby" is not the answer either.

Have you given this any thought besides today? I'd like to know what you've come up with. I know the thought of my mother finding out I had been raped was horrifying! I wasn't exactly "behaving" at the time, and being a minor I was afraid to "tell"...

What can we do so that the woman isn't punished but the rapist is?

The most important thing to keep in mind is that unreported rape only benefits the attacker. He's free to victimize again and again, and will. The police may even know who it is. His next victim may end up dead. If anything, women should be encouraged to report rape, and the support, help, and counselling the woman needs must also be made available to her.

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Punishing the woman by trying to bully her into reporting the crime isnt going to accomplish anything positive. Women SHOULD report rape. But condemning them and holding them in contempt if they do NOT is not going to accomplish anything positive.

What can we do so that the woman isn't punished but the rapist is?

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There is no way to separate the victim from the crime. And assuming a woman ends a pregnancy just to 'get rid of the evidence' is absurd. What part of 'does not want to be pregnant' is too confusing for you? Back to my cousin - her marriage fell apart when she lost twins. They were born prematurely and didnt survive. Thats why she was living in Austin instead of the tiny little south Texas town where she had grown up and lived her whole life. If she had gotten pregnant as a result of that rape and been forced to continue the pregnancy I dont know what that would have done to her. As it was, she was never the same after the rape. She had a panic attack when we were at a grocery store and I wrote a check - the clerk asked me for my phone number and she freaked. Then she developed breast cancer and died before she was 40. She was such a warm wonderful person - ive never been able to understand why so much that was so bad had to happen to her.

"Women SHOULD report rape. But condemning them and holding them in contempt if they do NOT is not going to accomplish anything positive."

yes, it is. It's more than likely going to prevent the rapist from hurting someone else. Oh that PP is so slimy, Good for OH!

"But condemning them and holding them in contempt if they do NOT is not going to accomplish anything positive."

Why would anyone do that? I think almost everyone, notice I said almost, would understand if a woman didn't, and also if a woman did. The point is that a woman shouldn't be made to feel like dirt either way.

You can't force anyone to report a crime they don't want to report. Where rape is concerned I most certainly do not support bullying the victim, but rather giving her the support and help she needs, as well as treating her with sensitivity and respect. Under these circumstances, women will be more inclined to report, and at the same time, get the help and support they need. Also, a violent offender will be removed from the streets.

So who among you has been a victim of rape.... acquaintance rape, date rape, or rape by an unknown attacker? Until you walk a mile in someone else's moccasins you really don't know what you'd do? I was a victim of acquaintance rape and I didn't report it. I was young, ashamed, scared, and the last thing I wanted was to tell someone what this person, that I had trusted, had done to me. I do think women should report rape, but I think some of you need to understand that it's easier said than done...especially when you have no freakin' idea what's it's really like!

Agmom04,

My point exactly. You were in desperate need of support, help, and counselling, and you never got it. Who knows how many women this animal had victimized before, and after you. The fact you felt you could turn to no one and didn't know where to turn is the real issue here. That is an absolute outrage.

A woman reporting a rape, at least in our city, will have the assistance of a female police officer, and a volunteer especially trained to assist and support her through the entire process of issuing a police report, the examination, trial, etc. The treatment of the rape victim is considerably more sensitive than it was 30 years ago, and is certainly long overdue.
________
i trained with the local YWCA as a rape victim advocate. our job is to support the victim in any way the victim needs support. we don't counsel, we advocate for them. we leave it to the victim to report the rape or not, we see to it they know where to go for counseling, medical care, whatever they need. in larger cities, this advocacy may be available, but even across the river in portland oregon only 16% of rapes are even investigated. they don't have advocacy resources for rape victims. our group will offer every kind of advocacy for oregonians, other than legal (we are not required to go long distances to help). NO rape victim should be required to report a rape and NO doctor should be required to report the rape of an adult. adults make their own decisions.

Anonymous,

You are to be commended for your volunteer work. Its tragic that so few rapes are even investigated in Portland and that there is limited help and suppport to victims of rape. Welcome to the Dark Ages. Rape victims are still forced to hide in the shadows. Women are not getting the support or help they desperately need, and predators aided and abetted by this situation, will continue to prey on women until this changes.
Thank you Anonymous for doing what you do and helping rape victims to the best of your ability.

LOL! So, They return to their web site, and they think they've shown us something? Re: Laura, Sally, and Texas Red. What? How women in their 50's can act like 12 year olds?

The bottom line here is that no woman needs "permission" from the man involved to terminate her pregnancy. It's her body that's involved, not his. She is risking permanent damage to her health (and even death), not him. When he can physically take over the pregnancy, he can be required to consent.
As for rape cases, as someone said, until you've been there you have no right to judge.

Nesse....well, duh!

WHO is judging???????UGH!!!

In answer to you question about OB/Gyns being the police...I taught school for 12 years and I was required by law to report any suspicious activity that I saw...bruises, or weird behavior...I could have gone to jail for turning a blind eye.

My pediatrician is required to do the same thing. So are people in hospitals. If a woman comes in and is battered, they are required to report it.

Why should OB/GYN's be any different. I would think that whenever and wherever you saw a woman being abused, you would want it reported. Am I wrong?

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2007 7:29 PM

So you see pregnancy as a result of abuse and expect drs to grill patients over how they got pregnant and who the sperm donor was?

Anonymous,

You know it really isn't worth explaining what I mean when you don't even read what I wrote...

We're not talking about women going into a OB/GYN's office because she is pregnant. We're talking about a pregnant woman going to a clinic because she wants an abortion...you'd know that if you read what this post is about...

We have a man on an abortion board who admits to raping women..........yet a bunch of silly women (including some who claim to have been raped) still lick his ass......... while they damn a woman (who could be a rape victim at some point in her life) simply because of her opinion.
None of those women have any right to whine about rapists when they lick a rapists ass because he's so "cute" and "funny"........... he's pathological scum who excuses his actions by claiming to be "autistic"....... He's a sociopath and so are those who seem to adore him.

We have a man on an abortion board who admits to raping women..........yet a bunch of silly women (including some who claim to have been raped) still lick his ass......... while they damn a woman (who could be a rape victim at some point in her life) simply because of her opinion.
None of those women have any right to whine about rapists when they lick a rapists ass because he's so "cute" and "funny"........... he's pathological scum who excuses his actions by claiming to be "autistic"....... He's a sociopath and so are those who seem to adore him.

That is sick Andrea...what board is that?

Andrea,

Just look at how women continued to idolize Bill Clinton despite the fact that women accused him of sexual assault, including rape. These women were openly attacked and ridiculed. Do you remember feminists going to the defense of these women? NO way.
One ardent feminist I work with said she didn't believe Paula Jones because she was homely. Excuse me, but isn't it a feminist tenet that a woman's physical appearance is never an issue in sexual assault and its sexist to suggest that it is? Unless of course you happen to admire the sex offender.
Also Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez, two sociopathic rapists and murderers had a slew of female admirers.
You bring up a great point here Andrea. What you describe is revolting, but does happen.

Andrea, also remember other nut jobs who have had their followers. Charles Manson and Jim Jones come to mind. Feminists love Bill. Re: Paula Jones. I BELIEVE her. BTW, she had a total makeover and looks like a million. Let's not forget about Clinton exposing himself, and the feminists turned a blind eye.

Heather,

No doubt her makeover was financed by the settlement Bill had to fork over, even though he was totally innocent.

We're not talking about women going into a OB/GYN's office because she is pregnant. We're talking about a pregnant woman going to a clinic because she wants an abortion...you'd know that if you read what this post is about...
Posted by: mk at August 22, 2007 3:52 PM
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So what if a pregnant woman goes into a clinic because she wants an abortion? Her reasons are none of YOUR business or anyone else's. And not everyone thinks pregnancy and birth are "gifts from god." Some women simply don't want pregnancy OR children. Thankfully, they don't have to have either one FORCED on them.

Mary, LOL! I'll bet Paula was laughing all the way to the bank!

Ocean, don't make a baby, if you don't want to be pregnant. It's simple.

Ocean, don't make a baby, if you don't want to be pregnant. It's simple.

Posted by: Heather at August 23, 2007 8:03 AM

No, thank you. I will have all the earthshaking thighmelting sex I want to have, use contraception faithfully, and if I should have an unwanted pregnancy, I may choose to abort. Why do some people spend so much time thinking about what other people do with their THINGS. In what universe is that normal? Has it occurred to you that refusing to have sex with your husband to avoid pregnancy is grounds for divorce? How about a sensible plan? Your's ain't it.

Reply to below: Our Bill, he's a slut and I love him.

Andrea, also remember other nut jobs who have had their followers. Charles Manson and Jim Jones come to mind. Feminists love Bill. Re: Paula Jones. I BELIEVE her. BTW, she had a total makeover and looks like a million. Let's not forget about Clinton exposing himself, and the feminists turned a blind eye.

Posted by: Heather at August 23, 2007 7:25 AM

Ocean, don't make a baby, if you don't want to be pregnant. It's simple.

Posted by: Heather at August 23, 2007 8:03 AM
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Sorry, I have NO intention of denying myself sex for the rest of my life because I'm DONE with procreation. I'll have sex whenever I want, with reliable contraception in place. If the BC fails, the pregnancy will NOT be continued. For me, sex is for PLEASURE, not procreation. Reliable contraception, including the pill, makes it possible to enjoy all the pleasures of sex with NONE of the unwanted burdens. Like pregnancy and birth, for example.

No Ocean, he's a sex offender.

No Ocean, he's a sex offender.

Posted by: Mary at August 23, 2007 10:49 AM
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WHO is a "sex offender?" I made no reference to any particular person my any of my previous posts. All I said was that I have no intention of denying myself sex for the rest of my life because I'm DONE with procreation. Where you got the "sex offender" idea is beyond me.

Ocean, yes you did. You were talking about Bill Clinton.

Ocean,

Bill Clinton is the post I was referring to. Thanks Heather.

Cherry Ocean, so you like male "sluts?"

Ocean, yes you did. You were talking about Bill Clinton.
Posted by: Heather at August 23, 2007 1:46 PM
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No, it was CHERRY who was talking about Bill Clinton, I wasn't.

Ocean,

I stand corrected! My apologies. It was indeed Cherry.

No Cherry, he's a sex offender.