These updates are a great! Keep up the good work.

"Feminists for Life has a good come-back when pro-aborts say, "You're pro-life now, but if you got pregnant...." "

Interesting, put i've heard it before. Its the same thing as "as soon as you see the ultra sound you'd change your mind"

I have to agree with both. I think some women, notice I said some, who consider themselves pro-life do in fact think about abortion, even for a split second when an unwanted pregnancy occurs. I do realize there are many that would never even think about it. Many on this board in fact. I think to say, "if you are pro-life and end up with an unwanted pregnancy you WILL have an abortion" is a pretty extreme thing to say. Its clear the individual who wrote that is pro-life.
I think there are some pro-choice people that perhaps think about abortion, see the ultra sound and do in fact decide to not abort.

What I wanted to post at the FFL blog but I"m not a friend yet:

My very unwelcome, unplanned pregnancy resulted in a young man who is now 22, in the Navy. He was a joy to us and I can't imagine having his sister grow up without him. And she was the reason I'd thought I "needed" an abortion! We were so poor we'd pawned our wedding rings to buy food for our daughter. What a grave disservice I'd have done her, to deprive her of her brother!

I think that the biggest gap between prolife and prochoice isnt' that one group cares about women and the other about fetuses. I think it's that one side has compassion on women who love their children no matter what, and the other side only feels for the woman who views her child as a horrible intruder and wants him dead.

It's because I had that unplanned, unwanted pregnancy that I'm hardcore prolife. I know what the abortion lobby almost stole from me, from my family, from the world. I'm prolife precicesly because I feel for the woman who finds out she's pregnant under difficult circumstances. And I don't think shunting her off to get vacuumed out, then abandoning her, is kind or helpful or decent. It's treating her like a second-class citizen undeserving of any real effort.

JM, most women with unplanned pregnancies nevertheless carry to term, all abortion advocacy rhetoric to the contrary. Getting pregnant only puts a minority of unexpectely pregnant women on the abortion table. Whereas seeing the ultrasound sways 80% of women who are already thinking abortion.

So statistically the prolifers would be much nearer right to say, "You're for abortion now, but if you had a child growing inside you you'd change your mind" than abortion supporters are to say "If you had a horrible parasite taking over your body you, too, would embrace snuffing the wretched thing."

What the abortion lobby did to Rosita is unconscionable. But for people without a conscience, that's not surprising, is it?

Christina, you wrote: "JM, most women with unplanned pregnancies nevertheless carry to term"

Where did you get this information? Did you make it up?

JM,
How was school yesterday (and by the time you read this, today)? Any better?

" I think it's that one side has compassion on women who love their children no matter what, and the other side only feels for the woman who views her child as a horrible intruder and wants him dead."

Excuse me? I don't care about women because I am pro-chioice? I could say that you don't care about women because you force them to do something they do not want to do. Argh never mind.

MK- School was a little better yesterday. But still challenging. I made a decision that anyone who disrupts my class today, is getting out of my class until they can start acting like a 7th grader. I will have a "time to refocus" sheet for them to fill out and some math work to do. They aren't allowed to come back until both are completed. If they keep acting up I am going to make them call their mom or dad in front of the class to tell them what behavior they are doing. If they STILL are acting up its goodbye to my room and hello Mr. Principal! ( can you tell I am overwhelmed and frustrated? MK- can I have your email? in case I ever want to e-mail you for more support? thanks)

"Pro-life boot camp"?

Yeah, because that doesn't sound like you're indoctrinating and brainwashing people. Haven't you seen Jesus Camp?

If you find yourself with an unplanned pregnancy, there's no one thats gonna force you into an abortion but you. A lot of times people like to blame inanimate objects for their problems. "Its McDonald's fault that I'm overweight"- don't eat McDonald's for every meal. "It's the music industry's fault that my kids are out of control"- have more of an influence in what music your kids buy, and take more than just a passing interest in whats going on in their lives. Then there's my favorite one-"The tobacco companies gave me cancer"- You buy the cigarettes of your own free will, you smoke 5 packs a day, you've heard numerous warnings on how dangerous smoking is, but you refuse to quit. Now you have cancer and if you had saved up the money equivalent to what the cost of 5 packs a day is, you'd have money to pay for your treatment instead of suing the tobacco company; because they never shoved the things down your throat.

*end of rant*

Saying the abortion lobby would have stolen your son from you is an overstatement. He was obviously wanted in your heart, the decision is all yours to make, your son is here so obviously you chose life and no one from the abortion lobby made you choose otherwise.

Wow.

I don't think it's possible to smoke 5 packs a day. Or at least you'd have to be grossly overweight to not succumb to nicotine poisoning. One or two I think is the most I have ever heard of.

I've known people who have smoked at least 4 packs a day. The light one after the other.

Oh no guys. Emphysema ally! I used to smoke a pack a day. Now I only smoke once in a blue moon.

How do they not die, JK? I mean...at most I can handle a pack a day(usually I smoke about a half), and if I smoke a whole one, I'm either partying or just being stupid. I feel kinda rank after a whole pack.

I don't know, they live in Kentucky, maybe we have a higher tolerance for it. *shrug*

My mom's best friend's husband is one of those such people. You could never see him without a cigarette in his mouth. But my mom's best friend was the one who got cancer and died when she never smoked. It was extremely unfair.

Ya, a little heavy on the chest.

Haha, Erin. I smoked about a pack of cigarettes over the course of a month. I couldn't imagine smoking a pack a day. And I quit after two months--never even got addicted.

JK, that's terrible. I suppose he didn't go outside to smoke, did he? If/when I get married, if it's to a nonsmoker, I will take my butt outside. Secondhand smoke isn't as dangerous as it's made out to be, unless you're consciously being an idiot and blowing smoke at people indoors all the time. I wish smokers would learn to be more courteous. It would go a long way towards easing up some of the dehumanizing that goes on.

JM,

Those sound like awesome plans (rules)!
Of course you can email...any time and all the time.
My email can be obtained by clicking on my name in the moderator's square on the right of these posts...mkhastings at ameritech dot net.

JKeller

A lot of times people like to blame inanimate objects for their problems.

You mean like blaming the condom, or the failed birth control, or the fact that you weren't indoctrinated enough in school on how to use the above, or the baby instead of "Oh I had sex and got pregnant...my bad?!?!?"

Defund, 9:03a, good blog! I've linked to it on my blogroll. Had to shorten title to fit on one line. Sorry.

He was always smoking, he would have been perpetually outside. When his wife was in the hospital and he was distraught, he'd come over to have long conversations with my mom. She wouldn't let him in the house because he couldn't just sit there without smoking, so they would sit on the front porch.

Well, kids really don't get a good enough sex education, from schools and also from their parents. If you have unprotected sex and you get pregnant, it is surely your fault.

But think about this; there are all kinds of warnings out there about how smoking is harmful to you, you could get cancer and die. There are warnings about how eating fast food is harmful to you, you could get high cholesterol and have a heart attack and die. If the line for these things were just "Don't smoke, because I said so", or "Don't eat fast food, because I said so" and nothing was known to people as to why they shouldn't do those things, or what was to gain by not smoking and eating better, then people would just continue to smoke and eat fast food, in blissful ignorance, until the inevitable happens.

Kids today are told "Don't have sex, because I said so" So they view sex as this great new toy that adults are selfishly keeping to themselves. They don't learn anything about it, then when they eventually do have sex, they have all these misconceptions they picked up off the street; "you can't get pregnant the first time", "you can't get pregnant if you do it in a hot tub", "you can't get pregnant if the guy pulls out" and so on.

Sure, its their fault, but it was also all the people from like the '40s fault when they got lung cancer, but no one had educated them about what happens when you smoke all your life.

Question for everyone: What exactly does an abnormal Pap smear mean? If you are pretty young and otherwise heathly, generally it's nothing, right?

This is a comment on the poll and not about this article.

The term "pro-abortion" or "pro-abort" does not accurately describe people who are pro-abortion rights (or pro-choice for short, but I prefer the longer and more cumbersome term as it is also more accurate.

No one is pro-abortion. If one were, in fact, pro-abortion, than one would advocate having every pregnancy end in abortion. No one advocates for this. Abortion is a terrible thing and women should never have to make that choice. That said, the remedy for this dilemma is not to remove one of the options from the table. That would only compound the problem.

In our social environment abortion is an option that needs to be on the table. You want to force all women to carry their pregnancies to term? Than you get to look in a haunted rape victim's eyes and tell her that the government values the pregnancy that her rapist inflicted upon her more than it values her. Then you get to tell the woman whose fetus has a condition that is incompatible with life that she had to carry the pregnancy to term, risking serious health complications, because the government values all life and thus feels that the fetus deserves a right to something that it can never possess. Then you get to tell the woman whose birth control failed that she has to carry her pregnancy to term because she's the one who decided to have sex and now she has to deal with the consequences.

Pregnancy is not a curse. It is not a punishment. At the proper time and when the woman consents to it, pregnancy is a gift. That, however, in no way means that all women should be forced to remain pregnant until such a time when their bodies are no longer needed to sustain the life that is growing inside them. While pregnancy can be a gift, it can also be an unbearable burden. It can be inflicted upon the unwilling and it is our duty as a nation to ensure that women have a way to terminate their unwanted pregnancies and a right to deny anyone else access to their bodies.

Enigma,

I know many people who are pro-gun but they don't intend or want to own a gun, they don't call themselves pro-choice. pro-choice is not specific enough on what you're pro-choice for.

"No one advocates for this"

yes they do, all of the time.

"Abortion is a terrible thing and women should never have to make that choice"

if it's so terrible, why should it be legal? what other right is so terrible to have but legal.

"Pregnancy is not a curse. It is not a punishment."

good, we agree.

"Pregnancy is not a curse. It is not a punishment. At the proper time and when the woman consents to it, pregnancy is a gift. That, however, in no way means that all women should be forced to remain pregnant until such a time when their bodies are no longer needed to sustain the life that is growing inside them."

yes, they should, otherwise you're killing human life.

"While pregnancy can be a gift, it can also be an unbearable burden. It can be inflicted upon the unwilling and it is our duty as a nation to ensure that women have a way to terminate their unwanted pregnancies and a right to deny anyone else access to their bodies."

if it's an unbearable burden to somebody then they should not be having sex, or accept pregnancy iwth having sex as a risk and deal with it like responsible adults. Pregnancy is not "inflicted" upon anybody, when you have sex, there is a risk of getting pregnant, and once you're pregnant, life is created and nobody has the right to kill human life.

Enigma,

Wouldn't it be nice if reproduction was always a matter of choice? Does the woman who desperately wants a baby and can't conceive one enjoy reproductive freedom? We don't always have the choice of what, where, and when concerning reproduction. How much of what happens in our lives is of our choosing? Very little. I don't know anyone who chose to have cancer, lose a child, suffer horrendous injuries when hit by a drunk driver, or have their home burn down.

You say abortion is a terrible thing and women should never have to make that choice. Why? I would say spousal abuse is a terrible thing too. Could I just as rationally argue that the solution to the dilemma of spousal abuse is not removing the option of beating one's wife from the table? If we would agree it is terrible, why would we want the option?

You speak of the haunted eyes of the rape victim. Anyone who has read my posts is well aware of how I can foam at the mouth over this issue and the Neanderthal mentality that still exists in our society toward rape and its victims. You say nothing about the rape victim who's been beaten, mutilated, tortured, doused with gasoline and ignited(as a victim in our community was), infected with AIDS, or murdered. They're just crime statistics. You express no outrage over the lenient treatment of sex offenders, especially those who prey on children and the humiliations still endured by the victims of rape. Why is it only when a rape victim becomes pregnant does our society suddenly find so much "concern"
and "compassion"? According to the accounts of women who have conceived of rape and chosen to keep have their babies, they have been harassed, badgered, shunned, pressured to abort. One woman said her insurance company even tried to deny her maternity coverage that she had paid for and was entitled to! Real compassion here.
To suggest abortion as some solution to rape is to trivialize this horrible crime. I suspect its because society is so repulsed by the pregnant rape victim, not the crime of rape itself. And if the woman isn't impregnanted, well, a big sigh of relief!
By the way Enigma, if you cherish your freedom you can thank a cousin of mine, the result of a rape, who served in WW2.

For any woman who's health or life is at risk, she need only go to the nearest medical facility that can provide the care she needs. Abortion has always been legal to save the life of the mother or preserve her health. Thankfully in this day and age it rarely comes down to that option but does happen. I have worked over 30 years in Catholic and non-Catholic hospitals and have never seen a situation where any woman was ever allowed to die or where everything necessary, including abortion and premature c-section, wasn't done to save a woman's life.

Pregnancy can be a burden. A family member can be a burden, there may be people who consider you a burden for no other reason than they just intensely dislike you. I'm sure plenty of people feel that way about me. Some day you or I could be seen as burdens to family members.
I view abortion as society's cop-out. Rather than be bothered with the burdensome pregnant woman and addressing her needs or offering her the help she needs, its far easier to just abort her, send her back to her problems, and then pat ourselves on the back for our "compassion".

Across the country over 3,000 crisis pregnancy centers are run by pro-lifers offering such services as emergency assistance, adoption referral, medical referral, and moral support, to name just a few of the services offered. There are social service agencies. There is help and support for the pregnant woman in need.

Question for everyone: What exactly does an abnormal Pap smear mean? If you are pretty young and otherwise heathly, generally it's nothing, right?

Erin, I'm no nurse, but from what I've been told it just means they have to look a little more into it, that's all.

Jill would be a good person to answer this.

Erin,

Here's a link that explains that abnormal paps can be a number of benign things:

http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/papsmears/a/abnormalpaps.htm

Feminists for Life has a good come-back when pro-aborts say, "You're pro-life now, but if you got pregnant...." "
*************************************************
Its easy to have a 'good come back' when youre the one inventing the initial statement. Im amazed that anyone finds that kind of setup 'impressive'. As far as I'm concerned 'Feminists for Life' have all the credibility of 'Whores for Celibacy'. No real feminist would pretend that robbing women of their right to bodily autonomy and self determination is commendable, nor would they want to pretend that nothing could possibly be more important in a womans life than gestation.

Question for everyone: What exactly does an abnormal Pap smear mean? If you are pretty young and otherwise heathly, generally it's nothing, right?

**************************************
It means you need to get to the doctor IMMEDIATELY and find out what 'abnormal' means and hear what the doctor has to say. "I couldnt develop cancer. I'm too young!" is a very dangerous way to think.

I am constantly amused by antichoicers who think 'Well I had my baby and Im glad I did so abortion is wrong for EVERYONE!' is a rational intelligent argument against abortion.

Erin,

Boot Camp "Indoctrination"? I know. How horrible it is for us to teach young people to support women through their pregnancies, become their labor partners, set up baby showers for them, arrange for pre and post (yes, Post!) natal care, teach them about adoption, sign them up for services so they can pay their bills, learn effective parenting skills, build healthy relationships, apply to schools and colleges, learn to read and set their finances straight.

It really is tragic that we strive to have them build a greater appreciation of their self-worth so they become more efficient and less dependent on abusive or non-existent men so they can make better choices in their life.

Worst of all is that we tell them there is a God that does exist, who cares about them and wants to see them succeed in life, despite what others might think about how we do that.

I am almost reeling at how we do all of that and yet still manage to offend those who usually know nothing about what the modern day pro-life movement does and take as their learning point a documentary with a bias. Bravo! Brilliant! Please give us more of your incredibly uninformed wisdom!

Texas red,

what do you call a heart attack?

Texas Red,

Concerning your comment concerning a"real feminist". You need to review history. You'll find the great feminists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, among them Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, universally and adamantly opposed abortion, referring to it as "male enforced degradation of women" and "murder".
These great feminists struggled to end slavery, promote the rights of women and minorities, including the right to vote, pushed for child labor laws to end the abuse and exploitation of children. They also offered protection to abused women, and spoke out and acted on behalf of social justice for all. In my opinion, they represented true feminism.
These great women would cringe in horror at modern day abortion, something they struggled against and resisted any efforts to legalize.

Post by: Mary at August 21, 2007 1:45 PM

Well said, Mary!

Rachael,

Thank you. Its good to see you back. Its been a while or have I just been missing your posts on other threads?

These great women would cringe in horror at modern day abortion, something they struggled against and resisted any efforts to legalize.

Posted by: Mary at August 21, 2007 2:45 PM
****
You have absolutely no idea how these women would react to todays society. That you need to pretend you do is laughable. By contemporary standards its questionable whether these women would even be considered 'feminists'. Their pressing issue was the right to vote. A world where sexual discrimination is ILLEGAL would boggle their minds. A real feminist would never try to justify robbing a woman of her right to bodily autonomy and self determination nor would they try to pretend that gestating is the most important thing a woman could do.

Texas red,

what do you call a heart attack?

******
My what a fixated anal retentive obsessed little rodent you are, jasper ... I would call it a MI.

Texas Red,

For that matter neither do you. Again review your history. These great women struggled for social justice for all people and their agenda covered many aspects of social injustice. Voting rights for women was only one of those aspects. A world free of sexual discrimination wouldn't boggle their minds TR, they'd be overjoyed since they struggled against sex and racial discrimination. Your criteria for a feminist is to support abortion. In their time these great feminists would have vehemently disagreed with you.

TexasRed,

"Whores for Celibacy"

ROFLMAO!!!

To be a fly on the wall in one of those meetings.....

:-)

“I know many people who are pro-gun but they don't intend or want to own a gun, they don't call themselves pro-choice. pro-choice is not specific enough on what you're pro-choice for.”

If you read my post carefully, you will note that I said I prefer the term pro-abortion rites since it is far more accurate. If you want to be nitpicky about that, I could say that the label “pro-life” is misleading as well. One is only “pro-life” if one is a pacifist, against the death penalty, and against all forms of abortion except those in which both the fetus and the mother will die if one is not performed. To be “pro-life” one has to defend all forms of human life and not pick and choose.

"No one advocates for this"
“yes they do, all of the time.”
Oh really? If every pregnancy ended in abortion than the human race would die out. There is a big difference between saying that a woman should be able to terminate her pregnancy through abortion and saying that all women must end their pregnancies in this matter.
The “pro-choice” label which you decry and which I admit is not completely accurate does, however, indicate that side’s support for a women to choose what she wants to do with her body. If she wants to have a baby, we support that. Planned Parenthood offers prenatal services to women who cannot afford them. If she does not want to carry her pregnancy to term, she should have the right to procure an abortion.
“yes, they should, otherwise you're killing human life.”
And by forcing women to carry their pregnancies to term, you are devaluating their lives. You are telling all women that they are no more than incubators.
“if it's an unbearable burden to somebody then they should not be having sex, or accept pregnancy iwth having sex as a risk and deal with it like responsible adults.”
You may feel that one should only choose to have sex if one is ready to deal with an unexpected pregnancy but that is not how everyone feels on the matter. Accept responsibility? How many people who get in car accidents do you tell to “accept responsibility for your choice to get into a car and risk an accident” and then deny them medical care? People take risks all the time and no where else are they denied medical treatment for those risks if they become reality.
“Pregnancy is not "inflicted" upon anybody, when you have sex, there is a risk of getting pregnant, and once you're pregnant, life is created and nobody has the right to kill human life.”
What if one never choose to have sex? What if one is raped? Do you still think she should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term?
Life being created is debatable. Technically, a fetus does not meet the requirements for human life until 23-24 weeks into gestation. Since a majority of abortions are preformed before then, the fetus has not achieved a state of human life.

“Wouldn't it be nice if reproduction was always a matter of choice? Does the woman who desperately wants a baby and can't conceive one enjoy reproductive freedom? We don't always have the choice of what, where, and when concerning reproduction. How much of what happens in our lives is of our choosing? Very little. I don't know anyone who chose to have cancer, lose a child, suffer horrendous injuries when hit by a drunk driver, or have their home burn down.”
So your argument is that since we can’t choose everything that happens to us in life women should be denied an additional opportunity to control their own lives?
“You say abortion is a terrible thing and women should never have to make that choice. […] If we would agree it is terrible, why would we want the option?”
I say that abortion is a terrible thing because I have never heard of a woman who has gone skipping happily to the abortion clinic to delightfully end her unwanted pregnancy. Abortion is never an easy choice. But that does not mean that it is sometimes not the right choice.
“You say nothing about the rape victim who's been beaten, mutilated, tortured, doused with gasoline and ignited(as a victim in our community was), infected with AIDS, or murdered. They're just crime statistics. You express no outrage over the lenient treatment of sex offenders, especially those who prey on children and the humiliations still endured by the victims of rape. Why is it only when a rape victim becomes pregnant does our society suddenly find so much "concern" and "compassion"?”
I was trying to limit my post to the thoughts that I felt were relevant to the issue. The poll concerned the accuracy of the term “pro-abortion.” If you really want me to discuss in detail every social issue that I’m concerned about we will be here for a very long time.

“To suggest abortion as some solution to rape is to trivialize this horrible crime.”
I never said it was a solution. That would be akin to me arguing that a funeral is a solution to a murder. It is one way of dealing with the pain and suffering. The woman has already suffered enough and has enough problems to deal with. She doesn’t need to be forced to carry a reminder of that terrible instance for nine months. That said, some women find that carrying a pregnancy inflicted upon them by a rapist is the best thing for them to do. They should have that option as well. But just because some women find it beneficial to carry this type of pregnancy to term does not mean that all women should be forced to.
“For any woman who's health or life is at risk, she need only go to the nearest medical facility that can provide the care she needs. Abortion has always been legal to save the life of the mother or preserve her health.”

Okay, you misunderstood where I was going. I was referring specifically to pregnancies in which the child cannot possibly survive due to having a medical condition that is incompatible with life and whose birth could seriously harm the mother. Don’t argue that anti-abortion advocates don’t still, in some cases, advocate for the woman to carry the pregnancy to term. I’ve seen it.

“I view abortion as society's cop-out. Rather than be bothered with the burdensome pregnant woman and addressing her needs or offering her the help she needs, its far easier to just abort her, send her back to her problems, and then pat ourselves on the back for our "compassion".”
That is your opinion. That does not make it universal or correct. In my opinion, abortion can sometimes be the best possible choice.
“Across the country over 3,000 crisis pregnancy centers are run by pro-lifers offering such services as emergency assistance, adoption referral, medical referral, and moral support, to name just a few of the services offered. There are social service agencies. There is help and support for the pregnant woman in need.”
Planned Parenthood offers support as well. There is help available but sometimes that help is not what a woman needs. Sometimes she simply needs not to be pregnant any longer. Pregnancy is always risky for a woman and to force women to accept the risks of pregnancy when they do not want to be pregnant in the first place is unconscionable.

I accidentally left a point out of one of my previous posts. I will rectify that situation here.
In making the decision to have an abortion, a woman is taking responsibly for her actions. She is recognizing that, for whatever reason, she cannot carry a pregnancy to term or deal with a child at the present time. After making this decision, she is taking the proper steps towards dealing with the issue.

Enigma's solution to one's inability to "deal with a child at the present time" is to kill that child before taking her first breath. I'll certainly agree that this sort of mother has a problem dealing with children. Enigma, would you agree that a mother aborting for this reason has at the very least a serious emotional problem and a trait to commit child abuse?

What I'm saying Enigma is we don't control our lives as much as we think we do. In fact, there's little we do control. Abortion is not going to bestow on us some magical ability to control what happens to us. A woman may abort, then be unable to conceive when she wants to. So much for her control. That abortion enables us to control our lives is as silly as saying being wealthy enables us to control our lives. All the money in the world won't help you if you're suddenly stricken with a disabling disease. For the most part circumstances in life ultimately control us more than we control them.

You didn't tell me why you thought abortion was a terrible thing. I don't go skipping to the dentist either, but I don't think having dental work is a terrible thing.

Concerning rape, I was making the point that we as a society do not address the real issues of rape, we emphasize the pregnancy while disregarding the horror of the crime itself. And yes, I am convinced we are far more repulsed by the pregnant rape victim than we are by the crime, and that in itself is despicable.
A rape victim will also carry the physical and/ or emotional scars of rape for her entire life, assuming she wasn't murdered. That seems to concern society little.

I understand exactly where you were going with the issue of a mother's life being endangered. Long before Roe v Wade was ever heard of pregnant women have always been, and still are, able to receive whatever medical care they need to save their lives or preserve their health. You said you've met anti-abortion advocates who would like to see otherwise. Let them think what they want, it will never happen. I certainly know of no pro-life people who advocate such an extreme position and if some do, and I have no reason to doubt you, who cares? People have all kinds of strange ideas.

Abortion isn't society's copout? Aborting the drug addicted woman and sending her back to the street and her addiction isn't a copout? Aborting the poor woman and sending her back to her poverty and desperate circumstances isn't a copout? Aborting the incest victim and sending her home to her abuser isn't a copout? Abortion sure beats exerting any real effort to better these women's lives and it makes us look so caring and compassionate as well.

To the best of my knowledge PP does not offer the services a crisis pregnancy clinic does. While pro-choicers have been critical of CPCs, we did take some of their business, I haven't seen any rush by pro-choicers to set up CPCs of their own. I would also point out that pregnant women in need in our community are assisted by CPCs and maternity homes. The local abortion establishment has not opened any similar facilities of their own.

SoMG, I could go dig up the stats someplace if you promise you'll actually attend to them. If, on the other hand, you're just gonna run me around in circles I'll not bother.

You tell me. Should I bother or not?

JM, I didn't say abortion supporters didn't care about women. I said that they only care about women who want their fetuses killed, not about women who want to avoid abortions.

Texas Red,

For that matter neither do you. Again review your history. These great women struggled for social justice for all people and their agenda covered many aspects of social injustice. Voting rights for women was only one of those aspects. A world free of sexual discrimination wouldn't boggle their minds TR, they'd be overjoyed since they struggled against sex and racial discrimination. Your criteria for a feminist is to support abortion. In their time these great feminists would have vehemently disagreed with you.

Posted by: Mary at August 21, 2007 4:07 PM
*****************************
YOURE the one trying to pretend they would support you. You have no idea HOW they would view contemporary society. MY criteria for 'a feminist' is one who respects women and respects their judgment and respects their right to make their own decisions. That leaves YOU out.

Enigma's solution to one's inability to "deal with a child at the present time" is to kill that child before taking her first breath. I'll certainly agree that this sort of mother has a problem dealing with children. Enigma, would you agree that a mother aborting for this reason has at the very least a serious emotional problem and a trait to commit child abuse?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 21, 2007 6:06 PM
*******************************
Killing children is against the law. Its amazing how many people cannot comprehend that. Virtually anyone can take care of an infant. If the mother has trouble then someone else can step in, or several people can step in and help, or she can give the child up for adoption. No one can take over a pregnancy. If a woman knows she is not in a position to deal with the demands a pregnancy puts on her life and her body then WHO ARE YOU to contradict her and pretend YOU are somehow in a better position to make that decision than she is herself? WHO ARE YOU to presume you know more about her life than she does? Trying to compare the care of a born child and a pregnancy is idiotic and absurd.

JM, I didn't say abortion supporters didn't care about women. I said that they only care about women who want their fetuses killed, not about women who want to avoid abortions.

Posted by: Christina at August 21, 2007 7:13 PM
*************************************
And what do you fantasize an "abortion supporter" is?

“Enigma's solution to one's inability to "deal with a child at the present time" is to kill that child before taking her first breath.”
Fetuses are not children. The simple fact that they will one day become children if the pregnancy is not interrupted in some way does not mean that a fetus is a child. In my previous post I was referring to a woman who was unable to deal with the aftereffects of a pregnancy (aka a child) and not the fetus itself.
“Enigma, would you agree that a mother aborting for this reason has at the very least a serious emotional problem and a trait to commit child abuse?”
No. This stems from an antiquated and paternalistic attitude about woman and about their roles in the world. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a woman deciding that she does not want to be an incubator for nine months, particularly if she knows that she will not want the resulting child.
“Abortion is not going to bestow on us some magical ability to control what happens to us.”
I never said that it did. All I said was that an abortion would enable a woman to control some aspect of her life if she does not wish to be pregnant.
“For the most part circumstances in life ultimately control us more than we control them.”
I agree. But that does not mean that we, as human beings, should not be able to alter and control the circumstances that affect our lives when we have the opportunity.
“You didn't tell me why you thought abortion was a terrible thing. I don't go skipping to the dentist either, but I don't think having dental work is a terrible thing.”
I said that abortion is a terrible thing because, regardless of how one actually views the fetus, abortion does end a potential human life. That is not something that should be done lightly and I believe that we, as a society, should work towards making abortion unnecessary (better birth control, better sex ed., ect). Until that time, however, abortion is be less terrible than the alternative.
“A rape victim will also carry the physical and/ or emotional scars of rape for her entire life, assuming she wasn't murdered. That seems to concern society little.”
Don’t put words in my mouth. Both of those issues concern me a great deal and I believe that rape is one of the most heinous crimes that one can commit.
“Abortion isn't society's copout? Aborting the drug addicted woman and sending her back to the street and her addiction isn't a copout? Aborting the poor woman and sending her back to her poverty and desperate circumstances isn't a copout? Aborting the incest victim and sending her home to her abuser isn't a copout? Abortion sure beats exerting any real effort to better these women's lives and it makes us look so caring and compassionate as well.”
So let me get this straight. You argue that since abortion will not address all of a woman’s problems that the woman should not be able to have an abortion. Then why does our country’s government fund food stamps for the poor? Why is their subsidized housing? Why do we fund after-school activities for low income children? None of these programs/services address all of the problems that these individuals face. So, using your logic, why not eliminate them as well?
“To the best of my knowledge PP does not offer the services a crisis pregnancy clinic does.”
Since I haven’t researched too much into CPCs (other than how they lie to and manipulate vulnerable women who come to them seeking aid) I cannot comment on this. That said, I do know that Planned Parenthood offers prenatal services to poor women. I personally know a girl whose mother went to a PP clinic to get prenatal care.

Texas Red,

Think about it. How do you think the great feminists would have viewed contemporary society?

Would you agree the great feminists would be happy to see women in positions of political power? These women fought to give women the right to vote and struggled for equal rights for women.

Would you agree the great feminists would have supported the civil rights struggle of black Americans and be pleased at the progress that has been made? These women struggled to end slavery and promote minority rights.

These women voiced their adamant opposition to abortion. Why do you think they would feel any differently today on this issue? I'm not pretending anything, I'm basing what I say on their historical quotes and the fact these women remained vehemently opposed to abortion. Why do you suppose they would change their minds and on what do you base your assumption that I'm pretending?

Christina, I want to know your source for the claim that abortion increases the incidence of subsequent reproductive problems such as premature birth, infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion, and adverse pregnancy outcomes. I gave you a source that showed it doesn't. (Here it is again: http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/140/8/620
)

Note: Right-to-life sites which publish lies in an effort to frighten women out of having abortions are NOT legitimate.

Respected, peer-reviewed journals (such as JAMA or the Annals of Internal Medicine) only, please.

Enigma,

You do admit then that abortion is ending a potential human life. Can you tell me what the genetic changes are that change a human life from potential to actual human life? You are genetically now what you were the moment you were conceived.

What words did I put in your mouth concerning rape?

I argue that society would prefer to put a woman on the abortion table rather than address the problems affecting her life and making any effort to better her life. I gave only a few examples. If you can give me examples of how abortion betters the lives of the women in the circumstances I described, I'm all eyes.

I don't understand what social service programs have to do with this.

Enigma, I have volunteered in CPCs. Far from manipulating and lying to women, we presented facts on fetal development that could be found in any high school biology book. Hardly a lie. I had a client tell me the local abortionist wouldn't give her any such information even though she specifically asked for it. We presented women with alternatives, support, medical referrals, emergency assistance and shelter. Women were free to walk out at any time or discontinue contact. I even had one client give a presentation on our CPC to her college class on how we had helped and supported her throughout her pregnancy.

“You do admit then that abortion is ending a potential human life. Can you tell me what the genetic changes are that change a human life from potential to actual human life? You are genetically now what you were the moment you were conceived.”
That is irrelevant We both know that there are no genetic changes during development. So what? You’re genetically no different from an individual who has just passed on. Does that mean I should treat you like a corpse because you happen to have similar genes?
“What words did I put in your mouth concerning rape?”
You implied that I felt that having an abortion solved any and all problems faced by a rape victim and further insinuated that I was attempting to use abortion as a way of sweeping the problem under the rug.
“I argue that society would prefer to put a woman on the abortion table rather than address the problems affecting her life and making any effort to better her life. I gave only a few examples. If you can give me examples of how abortion betters the lives of the women in the circumstances I described, I'm all eyes. I don't understand what social service programs have to do with this.”
Social service programs have nothing to do with this. I was using them as an example to illustrate how faulty your logic was. You implied that if a single course of action was unable to solve or address all of the problems in a woman’s life that the woman should not take that single course of action even though if she does not her problems may multiply. Even though abortion is incapable of solving all of the problems in a woman’s life (and I am not naïve enough to argue that it does), that does not mean that women should not be able to have abortions. The answer to a single dilemma is rarely able to make someone’s entire life better. That, however, does not mean that one should not take whatever course of action one deems necessary to deal with the crisis as hand.
“I have volunteered in CPCs. Far from manipulating and lying to women, we presented facts on fetal development that could be found in any high school biology book.”
That’s not what I’ve heard. A speaker at my school told of how woman had come to her, absolutely desperate for help, because the “pro-life” people who had offered to help them throughout their pregnancies turned them out as soon as the date had passed for when they could get an abortion.

Certainly, CPCs should not be federally funded. Can we agree on that?

I don't know of any that are. Would you agree that Planned Parenthood shouldn't be federally funded either?

JM, I didn't say abortion supporters didn't care about women. I said that they only care about women who want their fetuses killed, not about women who want to avoid abortions.

Rachael,

Thank you. Its good to see you back. Its been a while or have I just been missing your posts on other threads?

Posted by: Mary at August 21, 2007 3:35 PM

Thank you, Mary! Well, I've posted in the last week, but just here and there. Also, I may not be on here much in the next month or so, because my wedding is coming up towards the end of September.
Rachael
http://rsnider.livejournal.com
http://snidercoers.weddingpath.co.uk/

Arg, darn HTML code :-P I was trying to italicize Mary's post.
Rachael

Hello Enigma,

It seems we've come to agreement on one thing, that it is a human life we are discussing here, one that remains genetically unchanged from conception on. I would call a sperm or an egg by themselves potential human life.
I regret that you misunderstood my comments on rape. I was referring to the attitude of society as a whole. "Concern" is only expressed for a rape victim, in fact the only time she seems worthy of mention, is in the context of abortion. I've heard reporters and feminists go balllistic over a teenage girl pregnant by rape, but there was little said when a rape victim in my community was doused with gasoline, ignited, and left for dead. The woman is disfigured, not to mention her psychological scars. But, thank heaven she didn't get pregnant! A 13y/o girl in a city near me was sold by her mother to a drug dealer. The local newpaper used her case to promote abortion. "What if she had become pregnant?" the paper howled. No mention was made concerning what DID happen to this child nor was any concern expressed as to how this could traumatize her physically and emotionally. So long as she wasn't pregnant, well, what's the problem?
Also, that these predators are treated leniently and that rape victims must still face such humiliation while their attackers go unpunished, free to victimize again and again. I think I've made my point.
Concerning the problems of women and society's copout. My point is abortion will not solve the problems, but society thinks that once the woman has had the abortion well, gee, we did our part. We gave her a choice!
Enigma, I have worked with teenage pregnancy and have seen these girls become pregnant time and again. I have seen the post abortive teenager pregnant again within the year and planning to have and keep the child. Abortion obviously did nothing to solve the problem, whether its an underlying psychological problem or whatever.
Poor women will still be poor, the drug addict will still be an addict, the incest victim will be sent home to her abuser. How have these women's lives been improved? The only time I see any "concern" expressed for women in these circumstances is when they can't have abortions.
I would be a little wary of that CPC story Enigma. CPCs provide emergency shelter, maternity and infant clothing, medical referral. Why would we provide these services for women if we are going to "turn them out" after a certain date? Myself and other volunteers have supported women throughout their entire pregnancies and after the birth of their children. I remember one client calling me continuously for moral support.
We also had clients that were disappointed their pregnancy tests were negative since they wanted to become pregnant. I spent much time and effort persauding many of these teenagers and young women to please, at least finish college before even thinking of having a baby. Or the other teenage client who had had an abortion and wanted to be pregnant. I also spend time persauding her to give her emotions and body a rest. For some reason she felt she "owed" sex to her boyfriend.
These are only a few examples Enigma of the situations and problems we dealt with. Not all our clients were pregnant or not wanting to be. How often I wished a package of birth control pills would solve problems!

Rachael,

Congragulations and thank you for the links. You make a beautiful couple and I wish you every success and happiness.

“It seems we've come to agreement on one thing, that it is a human life we are discussing here, one that remains genetically unchanged from conception on.”

Not so fast. I never said the fetus was human life. I only said that it was a potential human life. There is a big difference. Genes alone do not a person make.

“The local newspaper used her case to promote abortion.”

This is something that I never condone, no matter who does it. In my opinion it is unconscionable to take a tragedy and use it to further one’s own agenda.

“I think I've made my point.”

You don’t have to make that point, not to me. I agree completely. (Well, almost completely. Apart from the abortion thing anyway.)

“My point is abortion will not solve the problems, but society thinks that once the woman has had the abortion well, gee, we did our part.”

I agree that abortion will not necessarily solve any underlying problems if there are any. The flip side of that is that denying the woman access to abortion may add to her problems. And what if the pregnancy, in and of itself, is the only problem? Then abortion is one possible solution.

“The only time I see any "concern" expressed for women in these circumstances is when they can't have abortions.”

That is based on a misconception in society. We tend to believe that there is a “quick” fix to everything and that after we’ve put a band-aid over the bullet hole that everything is fine and dandy. Needless to say, I do not subscribe to that belief. But that does not mean that the “quick” solution is always wrong. Sometimes even the “quick” solution can help even if it cannot solve everything. The solution to a person’s problems should not be to heap more on top of her.

“I would be a little wary of that CPC story Enigma.”

Oh that isn’t the only one. You may be reputable but that does not mean everyone is. What about the CPC which, after a teenager mistakenly thought that they were Planned Parenthood and made an appointment to have an abortion, called the cops on her and reported that a minor was being forced to have an abortion when the decision was actually her own? What about the CPCs who lie to women about the development of the fetus? Don’t tell me that you’ve never heard the line “your fetus can feel pain at 8-9 weeks”.

No, certainly everyone is not reputable. What bout the abortion clinics shut down because of health code violations, filthy conditions, and disreputable abortionists?
What are the lies concerning fetal development? How do you know for certain a fetus doesn't feel pain at 8-9 weeks? Any info I gave a woman was not my personal opinion, it was information you would find in any biology book. I had a client inform me that an abortionist refused to give her any information on fetal deveolopment even though she specifically asked for it. Who's trying to deceive who? Also, the client was free to get up and leave or break contact any time she chose. Many did. A PP clinic is being
sued by the parents of a minor for not informing them, as required by state law, that their daughter was having an abortion. She was kindly brought to the clinic by her soccer coach who had impregnated her and was certainly anxious to cover the evidence of his statutory rape. The PP staff appararently saw no reason to be suspicious of a man who claimed to be her "brother".

About exploiting personal tragedy. We certainly agree there. What enraged me about that young girl Enigma was the trivializing of the crime and her trauma. The only thing said was what a relief she wasn't pregnant. That is too often the case where rape victims are concerned.

You acknowledge that there are no genetic changes during development. So, let me put it this way. We remain the same individual, we just go through various stages of development, from embryo, fetus, newborn, toddler, etc. Our humanity remains unchanged, at least genetically, which is what determines our humanity.

You're certainly correct about our quick fix society. I argue that so long as we look for the quick fix to the woman's problems, nothing will be done to better her circumstances. The poor woman and the addict just being examples.
Sure a "quick fix" might look appealling and even helpful to the woman. There will always be women who claimed abortion saved the day for them. There will be others who maintain the "quick fix" wasn't one after all. People will always seek "quick-fixes", just like the above mentioned soccer coach, in the hope it will solve their problems.

But in the overall picture, how has abortion bettered the circumstance of women? You may be too young to remember Enigma, but when the movement to legalize abortion was gaining steam 40 years ago, the argument was that women's lives would be greatly enhanced and every social problem imaginable would disappear. Abortion supporters also flat out lied about the death rate from illegal abortion, which in fact had been declining for years and prior to 1973, was at an all time low. Sorry to say Enigma, in the ensuing years I have not seen these promises to women or society fulfilled. I have only seen social problems worsen and the circumstances of women continue to decline. Women pilot space shuttles, and teenage girls toss their futures down the toilet by trapping themselves into lives of welfare dependency and poverty, the very poverty and welfare dependency that abortion was supposed to eliminate.

“How do you know for certain a fetus doesn't feel pain at 8-9 weeks?”
Quite simply, actually. While it is true that a fetus’s nerves begin forming at 8-9 weeks (hence the whole debacle) it is not true that a fetus can feel pain at 8-9 weeks. A nerve, in and of itself, merely receives a signal and passes it along. The nerve feels nothing. Pain is a sensation generated by the brain, which interprets the signals sent to it by nerves throughout the body. Since a fetus at 8-9 weeks does not have a functioning brain it is medically impossible for a fetus that at that age to feel pain.
“The PP staff appararently saw no reason to be suspicious of a man who claimed to be her "brother".”
Most people assume that other people are not out to deceive them and circumvent the system. If both the woman in question and the man concurred on the ‘fact’ that he was her brother, I see no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Planned Parenthood.
“You acknowledge that there are no genetic changes during development. So, let me put it this way. We remain the same individual, we just go through various stages of development, from embryo, fetus, newborn, toddler, etc. Our humanity remains unchanged, at least genetically, which is what determines our humanity.”
While it is true that genetically, nothing changes, it is not true that we remain the same individual throughout. I said it before, but I’ll say it again. Genes alone do not a person make. The status of a being who is genetically human is based on the existence of a working brain. Thus, fetuses cannot be argued to be living individuals in their own right until they have well-developed, functioning brains.
I would additionally argue that the “personhood” of a fetus should have no bearing on whether or not a woman should be able to obtain an abortion. I believe that it is solely a woman’s rights issue. It is the woman’s body and she should have the right to deny anyone else the right to use that body even if such usage is necessary to sustain the life of the other individual.
“I argue that so long as we look for the quick fix to the woman's problems, nothing will be done to better her circumstances.”
Don’t be too quick to discount even a partial fix.
“There will always be women who claimed abortion saved the day for them. There will be others who maintain the "quick fix" wasn't one after all.”
So some women regret there abortions and others do not. That’s normal. People regret different things in life. This provides no evidence for why abortion should be outlawed. Should we outlaw everything that some people decided didn’t help them and that they regret?
“But in the overall picture, how has abortion bettered the circumstance of women? You may be too young to remember Enigma, but when the movement to legalize abortion was gaining steam 40 years ago, the argument was that women's lives would be greatly enhanced and every social problem imaginable would disappear.”
Typical propagandistic ploy. Social problems are complex enough that there can rarely be a single solution. Just because abortion does not solve all societal problems does not mean that it does not help women and indirectly aid society.
“Women pilot space shuttles, and teenage girls toss their futures down the toilet by trapping themselves into lives of welfare dependency and poverty, the very poverty and welfare dependency that abortion was supposed to eliminate.”
All that abortion can do is free women from being enslaved by little “invaders” who have slipped into their bodies (consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy). A woman’s body belongs to her. Her uterus belongs to her. No one else has rights to it. No one.

Here is a link to an article that discusses the issue http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

Thank you Enigma,

The conclusion however is that evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited and that pain perception is unlikely prior to the third trimester. Unlikely, not definitely non-existent. They cannot say for absolute certain. Also, there may simply not be the technology to accurately determine nervous system function in the unborn. Enigma, these are the people who operated on premature babies without anesthesia because they "knew" preemies had no pain perception. Guess what, they were wrong. We are being proven wrong time and again concerning the capacity of the brain and nervous system. The development of the MRI is fairly recent, and is providing new info on the brain and its function. We're still in the process of learning.

PP was in complete violation of state law. They were required to inform a parent and get consent. A "brother" had no authority to sign for a minor. The purpose of the law was to protect minor girls from such "brothers", or as they're sometimes called,"uncles".

Again, the functioning brain argument is tenuous. Does the comatose patient lose their humanity? I've cared for comatose patients Enigma, and I couldn't tell you if they had the capacity to hear, comprehend, or be aware or if they didn't. How about the anacephalic newborn who survives several days? Is this child not human? Here's a real clincher. A man in France was discovered to have minimal brain matter, and a skull full of fluid where his brain should be. Apparently he was born with hydrocephalus and shunted. He developed and functioned normally and this bizarre condition was discovered by accident. No one can understand or explain it. If you saw this man's brain in a science lab, you would say life, and certainly normal function was absolutely impossible. Another example Enigma of how little we know and understand.

I agree, a propaganda ploy, on the part of abortion advocates. Yes, common sense dictates social problems are entirely too complex for a simple solution, but we are a quick fix society, as you so accurately stated, and abortion advocates played it for all it was worth. I still remember bumper stickers that said "every child a wanted child" and "stop child abuse, support abortion reform". It all had such a nice ring, and didn't it make sense that eliminating unwanted children would solve so many social problems? They certainly couldn't talk of being rid of little "invaders", that would have no emotional appeal.

Does your statement about a woman's body and uterus apply to women in the third trimester? If she decides to be rid of the little "invader" in her 7th month, or even in the 8th or 9th, she doesn't want it and cannot bring herself to give it away but rather just wants it dead and out of her body. Would you agree this is her right?

“The conclusion however is that evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited and that pain perception is unlikely prior to the third trimester. Unlikely, not definitely non-existent. They cannot say for absolute certain.”

Point taken. For every question that researchers answer about the brain, one hundred new ones arise.

“PP was in complete violation of state law. They were required to inform a parent and get consent.”

In truth, I don’t know enough about this incident to comment. Isn’t it possible that the girl lied about her age or about having told her parents already? Most institutions (particularly those who face as much scrutiny as PP does) do not deliberately try to break laws if for no other reason than interest in their own survival.

“Again, the functioning brain argument is tenuous.”

Everything is tenuous. The best line that we can draw deals with the brain. Is it perfect? No. Will anything be perfect? No. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t draw a line. If we didn’t, for instance, there would be no organ donation. What do you think clinically determines death? It isn’t a heartbeat, it isn’t genes, it isn’t even when the person’s cells stop metabolizing and die. It’s when the person has no brain activity. That is when they are dead. Since a fetus does not have a functioning brain until late in the pregnancy, the fetus should not be treated as though it is a human individual until that time.

Propaganda has been used by both sides and people who adhere to one side or the other will naturally claim that the propaganda employed by the other side has been more damaging and completely incorrect. Personally, I feel that whatever propaganda abortion-rights activists have used in order to further their cause has been far more accurate and far less damaging than the propaganda employed by those who call themselves “pro-life.” (The quotes indicate that I do not call people who argue against abortion pro-life because being I believe that pro-life means more than simply being anti-abortion. I prefer to use the cumbersome term anti-abortion advocates but in the course of debate sometimes it is simply easier to use the shorter and slightly misleading term. Just so you know that I’m not singling out the “pro-life” side, I have a similar argument for the term “pro-term.)

“Yes, common sense dictates social problems are entirely too complex for a simple solution, but we are a quick fix society, as you so accurately stated, and abortion advocates played it for all it was worth.”

What if the only problem is that the woman is pregnant when she doesn’t want to be? What if the only problem is that she doesn’t want to surrender her uterus for nine months during pregnancy when she knows that she will not want the resulting child? What if the only problem is that the woman has a pre-existing condition (such as susceptibility to deep-vein thrombosis, for instance) that makes it riskier but not necessarily fatal to carry a pregnancy to term? Why should she do this if she knows that she has no interest in keeping the child? (Please don’t argue that having a gene for the susceptibility of DVT cannot be fatal during pregnancy. My cousin almost died twice, both of the times that she was pregnant, because of it.) Pregnancy poses a significant health risk to all women and no woman should be forced to bear those risks unless she has chosen to do so.

The problem is that you see abortion in terms of a false cure-all. You believe that it should either solve all the underlying problems in a woman’s life or that we should not have abortions because it isn’t some kind of miracle cure-all. That is a false dichotomy. Something doesn’t need the ability to cure all problems in life in order to be necessary.

“They certainly couldn't talk of being rid of little "invaders," that would have no emotional appeal.”

And this is another problem in out society. People assume that if someone else can twist a cause in such a way so that it has more emotional appeal than the alternative that it is a valid cause. Emotions should not dictate policy decisions and they should not rule our lives.

“Does your statement about a woman's body and uterus apply to women in the third trimester?”

I argue that, beyond the point of viability, a woman still has the right a fetus access to her body. It is her body and consent can be withdraw at any time. However, I recognize that at this stage in its development the fetus has rights too. Therefore, I advocate removing the fetus from the woman in a way that will harm neither of them if at all possible. However, I should add that by this point in the pregnancy the woman in question probably had enough invested in the pregnancy and has been pregnant for long enough that she probably would have ended it earlier if that had been her intention. The exceptions being, of course, when her health/life is at state or if the fetus has a condition that is incompatible with life.

Good evening Enigma,

I appreciate your honest answer to my last scenario. While I certainly don't agree with you, you're the first pro-abortion rights person to honestly answer my question and not wrangle your way around it.

Concerning PP, I would recommend that you google "Ohio planned parenthood lawsuit" and review the articles about the case I mentioned as well as others, including a case of incest, also covered up by PP staff. You can review these articles and draw your own conclusions.

We do not know for certain the fetus does not have a functioning brain, you conceded that point in your your first response. Concerning drawing a line, rigid testing and criteria must be met before brain death is determined and organ donation can take place. I've been involved in "harvesting". If the patient is moving as much as the 1st and 2nd trimester fetus in the womb, he/she would be judged as having a functioning brain and would certainly not be harvested.

I can't agree that the propaganda of abortion rights advocates has been more accurate. Have we eliminated child abuse, poverty, welfare dependency? Abortion advocates said abortion would solve these problems. They never put their real agenda as abortion being available for any reason, that would not have flown. I remember the era well Enigma, and their concerns were well founded. Emotional appeal was essential. So was the lie concerning the alleged death rate from illegal abortion. The child abuse argument had tremendous emotional appeal and abortion advocates milked it for all it was worth. Since abortion was legalized, the incidence of child abuse has increased in this country.

On the contrary, I have in no way viewed abortion as a false cure-all. That was the propaganda perpetrated by your side. I say its easier to send a woman to the abortion clinic and not be bothered with her problems, such as poverty or drug addiction. We saw crocodile tears of "concern" expressed for poor women when medicaid funding of abortion was cut off. We saw no such "concern" or outrage over poverty and inequality itself. It wasn't "fair" poor women couldn't have abortions wailed the abortion advocates, rich women can! Ah, it isn't fair poor women are poor, and the rich can do any number of things the poor can't, though that was never mentioned.

I have no idea if there is a gene for DVT suseptibility but I most certainly do not deny the seriousness of this condition. I know a nurse who suffered from such a condition and suddenly died, despite taking every precaution for years. By the way her "baby" was 18y/o when this happened and her two sons were adults. I'm very thankful you're cousin survived her pregnancies. Sadly, she will always be at risk should she have surgery, ride in a car, or fly in a plane, even if she takes every precaution. This condition can also strike without warning, as it did to the nurse I mentioned. Its a catch 22 for a pregnant woman with this condition. If she has an abortion, she is also putting herself at risk for a DVT. I would suggest a woman seriously consider a tubal ligation under these circumstances, but then she is putting herself at risk with this surgery. I know the wife of a doctor who died very suddenly of a DVT after her tubal ligation. Its a very tragic and dangerous disorder. It can strike, with or without a previous history.

You made an exellent point about how one question about the brain being answered generates 100 more. I just read that there are indications that "retarded" autistic children may in fact have a "resevoir" of great intelligence that needs to be tapped into. The question is, HOW?

“I appreciate your honest answer to my last scenario. While I certainly don't agree with you, you're the first pro-abortion rights person to honestly answer my question and not wrangle your way around it.”

I’d love to take credit for it, but I can’t. The answer originally came from another abortion rights supporter and I decided that it coincided nicely with my views as well. On the whole, I do have to say that I have appreciated the quality of the debate here. There seems to be less judging and more discussing.

“Concerning PP, I would recommend that you google "Ohio planned parenthood lawsuit" and review the articles about the case I mentioned as well as others, including a case of incest, also covered up by PP staff.”

If those are true, which I truly hope that they aren’t (not because I support abortion rights, but because that {the incest cover especially} is unconscionable), PP has a problem and has not been acting with the level of responsibility and human decency that it should. I hesitate to cast judgment until I hear the other side of the story. Being too quick to judge (or being inherently biased towards one direction or the other, and here please note that I’m condemning myself as well as offering a cautionary note) often leads to unpleasant consequences and contributes to misunderstanding.

“We do not know for certain the fetus does not have a functioning brain, you conceded that point in your first response. […]If the patient is moving as much as the 1st and 2nd trimester fetus in the womb, he/she would be judged as having a functioning brain and would certainly not be harvested.”

Reflex action is not indicative of anything but the most rudimentary type of brain function. It is controlled by the brain stem, which controls all of the ‘baser’ (meaning more biological functions such as breathing, heart beat, ect). This type of moment does not indicate higher consciousness or any sort of intelligence.

“I can't agree that the propaganda of abortion rights advocates has been more accurate.”

Since the era when abortion was illegal was before my time, I cannot comment on anything that was said or happened then. I do not deny that there have been propagandistic appeals on both sides and that both sides have perpetuated distorted or blatantly untrue information to further their own cause. When I say that the propaganda provided by anti-abortion advocates is less accurate, I am referring to several things specifically. The first are the pictures of purported aborted fetuses that get waved around. I do not deny that some of those probably are of aborted fetuses. That said, a great many of them are not. Some are of miscarriages and others are of stillborns. A second issue is the disturbing tendency some anti-abortion advocates have to promote outdated and consequently disproven material. Here I refer to the tendency to link abortion and breast cancer. The original study that this was based on was extremely unscientific and flawed in character. The truth of the matter is that carrying a pregnancy to term does reduce a woman’s risk of getting breast cancer. But it is not true that having an abortion increases a woman’s risk of getting breast cancer. All that having an abortion does is prevent the woman from gaining the added protection provided by pregnancy.

“Have we eliminated child abuse, poverty, welfare dependency?”

It is not unusual for all of the propagandistic ploys that one group has used in order to further their cause not to come true. We see it all the time in campaign “promises.” That said, simply because all of these propagandistic pledges did not come true does not mean that the issue (or the politician) cannot stand on its own. Abortion has not solved any of these problems, but then again, there can be no single, simple solution to any of these complex issues. The only thing that abortion can do is spare a woman from an unwanted pregnancy. (Yes, I know that I argued that pregnancy could be a gift. But pregnancy is certainly not a gift to those who do not want to be pregnant.) It is unrealistic to expect abortion to solve all of those problems. But just because it cannot does not mean that it never solves any problems.

“Emotional appeal was essential.”

Sigh. That is something that I regret, no matter what use it is put to. Issues should not need to rely on emotional appeal. I favor rational, well thought-out decisions. Blatant emotional appeals and other propaganda designed to induce an emotional response seldom favor that type of decision.

“Since abortion was legalized, the incidence of child abuse has increased in this country.”

I don’t know if you’re citing this as an example of a false promise or implying that abortion and child abuse are somehow linked. Since I’ve already dealt with the false promise thing, I’ll address the later. For starters, it’s possible that the rate of child abuse in this country has not increased at all and that the number appears to be higher simply because it is reported more. It is also possible that nowadays we classify more behaviors as abusive when before they were simply viewed as disciplinary. In any case, I do not believe that abortion and child abuse are linked since I can see no logical relationship between the two.

“On the contrary, I have in no way viewed abortion as a false cure-all. That was the propaganda perpetrated by your side.”

I apologize. I misinterpreted your statements.

“I say its easier to send a woman to the abortion clinic and not be bothered with her problems, such as poverty or drug addiction.”

That’s undoubtedly true. But what if those other problems did not contribute to her pregnancy? What if the only problem is her pregnancy itself? You keep referring to the poor and uneducated and how abortion will not solve either of those problems. What about the college student whose only problem is that the condom broke and she’s suddenly pregnant? What about the middle class mother who already has three kids and doesn’t want to bring another into the world?

This type of logic continues to worry me. It can easily be construed as “since this one solution won’t solve every problem, this solution is always bad and maladaptive.” I do not deny that abortion will not solve all of a woman’s problems. In some cases, an abortion may even add to those problems (if she has an abortion for the wrong reasons or comes to believe that she has done something unforgivable). In other cases, an abortion may solve some specific problems. At the very least, it can prevent other problems from being added to a woman’s already troubled life. Not every solution has to make the whole world better. Sometimes just not making the world worse is enough.

“I have no idea if there is a gene for DVT susceptibility but I most certainly do not deny the seriousness of this condition.”

Oh there is one. It was passed down by my maternal grandmother. If you’re a woman, it means that you have an increased risk of DVT if you’re on birth control pills, using hormone replacement therapy, lactating, or pregnant. I frankly don’t know if having an abortion increases one’s risk as well if one has this gene. (Though technically I think it’s actually two heterozygous genes.) I haven’t researched it. I do know that if one has the DVT susceptibility gene, it is progressive condition.

“You made an excellent point about how one question about the brain being answered generates 100 more.”

Sadly, I can’t take credit for this one either. It came from a conversation I had with a psychiatrist that I know.

“I just read that there are indications that "retarded" autistic children may in fact have a "reservoir" of great intelligence that needs to be tapped into. The question is, HOW?”

I believe it. The idiot savant is a well-known phenomenon. Even though this isn’t exactly what referring to, your comment just brought that to mind.

Good Morning Enigma,

Wherever you got your answer, I do appreciate your honesty. I may not agree with or like someone's beliefs but I will always appreciate a straight forward answer. Like you, I also appreciate the quaity of this debate as I feel name calling and personal attacks belong in the sandbox. If one can't intelligently debate then please, just shut up. I regret we may have misunderstood each other on the subject of the rape victim. I'm afraid the treatment of rape victims and rape itself by our society is a subject that can get me foaming at the mouth, and the keyboard.

Again, on the issue of the fetal brain. Whether movement is reflexive or purposeful is subject to opinion amd debate but either way, it does indicate an intact nervous system. When I worked with comatose patients I could not always distinguish between the two. I would have one opinion, another observer would have another, and our neurosurgeon absolutely refused to express an opinion at all! Of course we disagreed as well on the level of conscious thought. Very simply Enigma, we did not know for certain. It cannot be said for absolute certain, at least at this point, that a 1st or 2nd trimester fetus does not have a higher level of conciousness than reflex actions, just as the same could not be said of the comatose patients. MRI and other technology is opening a whole new world concerning the human brain and we're hopefully on the way to answers and not a lot more speculation.

Concerning pictures of aborted fetuses. If any of these were falsified, then I condemn that as well as any other falsehoods that may have been perpetrated. I have seen many of the pictures of fetal development, and they could have been found in any biology book. The pictures I saw were indeed of aborted fetuses and this was verified. I also find pictures of war, massacres, and famine every bit as disturbing, but I think they, like verified pictures of aborted fetuses, are something we need to see. I think when people are exposed to unpleasant facts, their first reaction is to claim its a falsehood. This is across the board by the way, not restricted to PL or PC people or the abortion argument.

Concerning child abuse. I think we can agree that abortion obviously will not solve the problem and I have no studies to back up any claim it may cause an increased incidence. It has been shown though that in societies where abortion was legalized, the incidence of child abuse increased and was never found to decrease. It was PL people who mainteined that abortion would not end child abuse.

Concerning breast cancer. I strongly urge all women to keep an open mind and to research thoroughly both sides of the argument. This is a subject where politics may well rear its ugly head and prejudice people to their own detriment. There is strong and up to date research, here and abroad, supporting a link and women at the very least have a right to know this and to draw their own conclusions. In the same vein I just as strongly urge parents to thoroughly research both sides of the argument concerning vaccines and the possible connection to autism.(I have my suspicions about all the ultrasound of unborn babies and from such an early stage of development but that's another subject) One thing the years have taught me Enigma is never believe the medical profession when it assures you something is safe, do your own research.
An added note, I have read that black women are developing and dying from breast cancer in numbers far greater to their proportion in the population, despite early diagnosis and treatment. Black women also abort in great numbers to their proportion in the population. Again, I have no studies backing any connection between the two, its just an added point. It has been determined though that women with a family history of breast cancer may be at particularty high risk from aborting a first pregnancy.

You're absolutely correct about emotional appeal. That's why I always look for "the story behind the story". There always is one, and people are too quick to let emotions get in the way of facts and rational thought.

Your points about the college student and middle class mother. I cannot support aborting the unborn because they are an inconvenience. This is an area we just have to agree to disagree on.

Your info on DVTs is news to me and very informative. I certainly knew people can be plagued with this problem their entire lives or that it can srike unexpectedly. It makes sense that if bloodclotting disorders such as hemophilia can be inherited, so could a certain tendency toward DVTs. Again, a real catch-22 for any woman with this tragic disorder. I have never argued that a woman should be denied an abortion if her life is threatened and if that is determined to be the case with this bloodclotting disorder, then she must do what is necessary to save her life. I would think most of these women would want to opt for tubal ligation.
If your cousin would be at increased risk from surgery, injury, or prolonged sitting I couldn't say for certain. Certainly, people with DVT history are at serious risk and must take special precautions.

About the savant. Another good example of how the more we learn about the brain, the less we know and understand.

Have a good day Enigma

Hello,

“I'm afraid the treatment of rape victims and rape itself by our society is a subject that can get me foaming at the mouth, and the keyboard.”

It can for me as well. The first time that someone told me that rape victims should be forced to carry any pregnancies that resulted from the rape to term, I almost bit her head off. For me the issue is about helping the woman. She has just been through a terribly traumatic experience (i think that's putting it too lightly, but I don't have a better term) where someone else has basically stolen the rights that she has to her body from her. I can conceive of someone believing that aborting a fetus from the rape is a helpful step in the healing process in which she reclaims her right to her body. Of course, I can also conceive of such a woman believing that by allowing this fetus to remain inside her she is rising above the experience. I simply believe that the woman should be able to do whatever she needs to in order to heal and that it is the job of every inhabitant in society to help her.

Sometimes I really don’t like the society that we live in.

“Again, on the issue of the fetal brain. Whether movement is reflexive or purposeful is subject to opinion and debate but either way, it does indicate an intact nervous system. When I worked with comatose patients I could not always distinguish between the two.”

Point taken. Nevertheless, I feel that it is highly unlikely that a young fetus is capable of higher thought. This uncertainty also does not effect my position. I argue that women should be able to have abortions because only they have the right to determine if they want to provide another individual with access to their bodies.

“I think when people are exposed to unpleasant facts, their first reaction is to claim its a falsehood. This is across the board by the way, not restricted to PL or PC people or the abortion argument.”

Point taken. I base my claim on the color of the fetal tissue. If the fetus has been aborted, the aborted tissue should be pinkish in color. If the tissue is of a different shade, such as purple or brown, it was probably a miscarriage or a stillborn.

“It has been shown though that in societies where abortion was legalized, the incidence of child abuse increased and was never found to decrease.”

Correlation does not prove causation. The issues that I raised in my last post could be possible explanations for this. In any case, unless shown direct and irrefutable evidence that the two are linked, I can not believe that they are (my personal feelings on the subject may sadly be influencing this). I hope that I believe this not because of what I believe but because it simply doesn’t make sense that the ability to get an abortion would make people more likely to abuse their children. It’s possible that this is a factor of modern-day society (please don’t get me started) and not in any way related to abortion at all. The correlation could then be explained by the fact that both abortion (the technology that we use now) and increased incidences of child abuse are both born of modern day society.

“Concerning breast cancer. I strongly urge all women to keep an open mind and to research thoroughly both sides of the argument. This is a subject where politics may well rear its ugly head and prejudice people to their own detriment.”

I can never argue against keeping an open mind and researching both sides. That said, if there is a link, the anti-abortion camp will only hurt itself if it clings to outdated data and does not tell the whole story.

“In the same vein I just as strongly urge parents to thoroughly research both sides of the argument concerning vaccines and the possible connection to autism.[…] One thing the years have taught me Enigma is never believe the medical profession when it assures you something is safe, do your own research.”

I don’t trust vaccines either. Whatever people may believe, they are not benign.

“An added note, I have read that black women are developing and dying from breast cancer in numbers far greater to their proportion in the population, despite early diagnosis and treatment. Black women also abort in great numbers to their proportion in the population.”

This relates to the correlation/causation thing. It’s also true that black women, on the whole, tend to be poorer and more likely not to receive the medical care that wealthier women are.

“It has been determined though that women with a family history of breast cancer may be at particulary high risk from aborting a first pregnancy.”

I’m not disputing you on this (I haven’t researched it) but I would be interested if you could point me in the direction of the study (or studies) that indicated this.

“Your points about the college student and middle class mother. I cannot support aborting the unborn because they are an inconvenience. This is an area we just have to agree to disagree on.”

Lifestyle choice does not necessarily mean inconvenience. But I think we will have to disagree, especially because I believe that fetuses are only potential life.

“Again, a real catch-22 for any woman with this tragic disorder.”

It’s not always that bad (having the gene, not having the disorder). My mother has it as well (I have it through her) and she went through two normal pregnancies. To this day, she has never had a problem. In my cousin’s case, it was compounded by the fact that she had previously had ovarian cysts and had been put on birth control pills (before they knew) to treat her.

“Have a good day Enigma”

You too.

Hello Enigma,

Concerning the rape victim, what made me angriest, and still does, was the public humiliation of victims, the trivializing of the crime, the neanderthal mentality that still exists toward the victim and the fact our society is more repulsed by the pregnant rape victim than they are by the crime or the lenient treatment of the offender.

About child abuse. All we can say for certain is that abortion does nothing to stop it, contrary to popular misconception.

About breast cancer. The data is not outdated. Check out www.abortionbreastcancer.com for the most up to date research. They should also have something on there about family history of breast cancer, where I'm sure I read that. I've read so much I cannot keep track anymore.

The note about black women and breast cancer is just that. I don't know if there is a correlation. I don't know if there isn't. Its just something to think about.

Small wonder your cousin had problems. I'm happy to hear your mother has no problems and I certainly hope that proves true for you as well.

Enigma,

If you go to the site I recommend, after entering the site go down a little way to "quick jump" click, then go to ABC link. On this link go down about half way. There you will find the high risk groups, and they mention family breast cancer history.

Oh, and about vaccinations. Like you I'm inclined to believe they may cause autism. Interestingly, a very dear friend of mine is a special ed teacher and adamantly believes vaccines have nothing to do with the problem. We all look at the same data and arrive at different conclusions. Personally, I'm very suspicous of sonograms that are so routinely and frequently done, beginning early in pregnancy. They may not be so harmless. That's only my opinion though.

Hola,

“Concerning the rape victim, what made me angriest, and still does, was the public humiliation of victims, the trivializing of the crime, the neanderthal mentality that still exists toward the victim and the fact our society is more repulsed by the pregnant rape victim than they are by the crime or the lenient treatment of the offender.”

Agreed on all counts. I personally feel that rapists should be shot.

“About breast cancer. The data is not outdated. Check out www.abortionbreastcancer.com for the most up to date research. They should also have something on there about family history of breast cancer, where I'm sure I read that. I've read so much I cannot keep track anymore.”

I thank you for the link and I will have to look into this further. I tend to be automatically suspicious of information offered only on pro-life cites (yes, sadly it’s my preconceived notions interfering again).

“Small wonder your cousin had problems. I'm happy to hear your mother has no problems and I certainly hope that proves true for you as well.”

I thank you for the thought and I hope that proves true as well.

“Oh, and about vaccinations. Like you I'm inclined to believe they may cause autism.”

I don’t know about the autism link. To me it sounds plausible but I haven’t researched it. And the mercury limits in those things should be zero. We do not need to be injecting toxic substances into our children. I was referring more specifically to the fact that some people react adversely to vaccines. And when I say adverse, I am covering a range of reactions from hives to demyelization of the brain.

Hi Enigma,

I think we agree on more than we thought! I appreciate that you will check out the link. Research is research, no matter was site presents the findings and I'm glad you will keep an open mind.

About vaccines, some excellent points. I'm sure what you describe can result in autistic symptoms.

Hey,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a while. There's so much to answer that I just haven't gotten to everything.

I don't know enough about autism to comment about possible causes of symptoms. (Though I still distrust vaccines for other reasons and still think that mercury limits in vaccines should be zero. I'm actually shocked that the FDA has "acceptable" levels of mercury.) Autism is mostly a developmental disorder and, from what I've heard/read/seen, has mostly social side effects.