I thought it was K-Fed who gave the bad performances. Maybe she was afraid of her wig falling off. EESSH....that was bad.

The performance was terrible, no arguement- but are we really going to start picking on her for not having a perfectly flat tummy after giving birth to two kids? I know a ton of people who haven't even had kids and can't manage to get their tummy looking that nice. And we wonder why girls have such major body image issues!!

Yes, her physique is the ONE THING we must not make fun of her for that performance (or lack thereof)

I thought after the whole Ashlee Simpson SNL debacle rule number 1 for singers would be "Don't Lip-synch on National Television"

And really, she couldn't have sung the song herself? It has like 4 words, depending on whether you consider "gimme" to be one word or two.

Is it just me or did she look a little off balance?

It was definitely not just you

;-)

Erin, she wore a bikini. Give me a break.

Wow Jill you are a little rude. I bet if one of your "kind" said that you wouldn't be so haste...

Well, she's not *really* fat, just not Hollywood skinny anymore. At the beach or the pool she would be able to pull that off, because she's a normally built person, at an awards show: not so much...

Its been obvious for a while that this is a mentally ill woman. I find her pathetic and the public and media indredibly vicious. No one's sickness and misery should be a source of entertainment.
Erin, good point about the post babies tummy. I agree with Jill about the bikini, and think that a nicer, less revealing costume would have been far more flattering than dressing like a dominatrix.
I think this whole performance shows a woman spiralling downward and in desperate need of help, which we can only hope she will get.
Sorry everyone, but this just hits a little too close to home for me.

Yes, I agree Mary...

I feel sorry for her. Everyone (especially the media) is expecting her to get her "old body" back in like two seconds. Not to mention she is mentally ill and no one will get her the help she needs. She needs to be committed for her sake and especially for her children's sake.

I don't think her body was that bad. If anything it helps that she is more voluptuous (sp?). Although her performance was bad, at least she's not stick thin anymore. It says something about the countrie's warped body image when we make fun of Britney looking normal. I hope I look like her after having a baby. I didn't see stretch marks either, and I see a lot of that on new mothers.

A different costume would have been better, but I doubt with such a fabricated career that much of anything is her choice anymore.

And on another note, I dont think she looked bad at all. If I have that body after two children I'll be the happiest woman in Alabama...

That is if I ever find a guy that's worth a damn...

Wow. This is one of the few things I think we can all agree on. That performance was awful--NO energy. It was kind of funny watching her backup dancers and seeing how much more they were putting into their performance... Britney didn't even look like she was trying.

wow!
i have read here for quite some time...wanted to give credit to the "other side" and try to see their point of view...
i have not been surprised by what i have read here until today...

is this what you have stooped to? to shame a girl whose life is already a train wreck for how she LOOKS?

are you kidding!?!

as a role model of young women wouldn't you want to do more to make them feel confident in their own skin, and not shame them for their looks? a young girl could see the comments here and really doubt her own self worth...

why does it matter? whether a celebrity (who is obviously struggling but i guess not worthy of your sympathy or prayers), the girl next door, or any other woman out there struggling w/ the way the world judges us on our looks and bodies we should be more responsible for the messages we put out.

no, i don't consider her fat. motherhood has matured her looks, as can be expected. but the point is that IT SHOULDN'T MATTER!!!

fine, the performance was bad, she doesn't seem to be enjoying herself any more...but wow...i can't believe you stooped to this level...

shame on you!

She's probably exhausted from being a mom...

ouyangdan: If you bothered to read, you'd see that most people are not talking about the way she looks, but her performance. READ YOU IDIOT.

wow...an ad hominem...just the classy response i figured i would get on a site like this...

thanx for that...

looks like i was right all along...

Whatever, you obviously can not read. No one has said anything about the way she looks. If you bothered to read the posts you would see that people are saying she looks fine (no, she is not "Hollywood Skinny anymore) but she looks like a normal female. Which is a good thing honestly. We are talking about the way she performed. There was no emotion, nothing. Her back up dancers were most enthusiastic to be on stage than she was.

That is if I ever find a guy that's worth a damn...

Midnite, is this a promising sign?

I think a dominatrix costume like that would look bad on ANY woman, not just Brittney. I can think of any number of outfits that would have been far more flattering for her to wear. That was my only issue with her looks.

I dont know Mary. I just tried to talk to him about a bunch of things that were bothering me. I just sat there and told him how he's basically ignored me for three weeks and wanted nothing to do with me for three weekends and he just stared at me. I tell him I love him all the time and most of the time he doesnt respond and if he does it's "you too" response. Then I told him his actions make it quite apparent that he does not love me and does not care about me and his response was "OK Ashley, whatever".I sat there and spilled my heart about how I felt about everything and he just stared at me with this blank look on his face and now he is asleep in MY BED!!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME. I AM SLEEPING ON MY OWN COUCH TONIGHT!!

midnite, wake him up, and throw him out! *winks*

well...actually i CAN read...quite well thank-you...

"The performance was terrible, no arguement- but are we really going to start picking on her for not having a perfectly flat tummy after giving birth to two kids? I know a ton of people who haven't even had kids and can't manage to get their tummy looking that nice. And we wonder why girls have such major body image issues!!"

which was a good point...
followed w/

"Erin, she wore a bikini. Give me a break."

so what? why does it matter WHAT she wore? that was a pointlessly catty comment...and after the *polite* and understanding response i just witnessed...i can see that catty is in good company...

even people who say "she isn't *really* fat" are just as judgemental as the people so say she is...

that whole argument of "she looks good for having kids" just feeds into the argument of people who shame us as women for not fitting into that "norm".

my initial reaction was the same...i fell into the same "but she's not fat" group of people, and that judgement was wrong too... who are WE to decide what a woman should wear or look like?

but yes...i CAN read...the point was at the catty comment back to someone making my exact point at the beginning...but i guess logical criticism isn't welcome here...only name calling and hostility. i only wanted to know if this kind of behavior is endorsed here...

got my answer.

at least i know i won't be missed...

at least get him on the couch and you take the bed....

RE: Appearence, I just wonder if she has fake hair on. It doesn't look like it. She did shave her head.

Midnite, Midnite, Midnite, what am I going to do with you!!! Remember what I told you about living your life in chains even though you have the key.

ouyangdan

I dont know who you think you are, but tonight is NOT THE NIGHT TO CALL ME CATTY!! And saying she looks good for having children is not a negative comment. It is a compliment. She has no stretch marks (which most new mothers, and even non mothers have) on her body. Apparently you are taking people's word and switching them around to suit your own needs.

And no, you will not be missed. Especially not by me.

Have a lovely night and life ouyangdan.

midnite, lol!

Mary: I know I have the key or something. But I dont take rejection well. I have suffered from severe depression in the past, and I do things to myself that are not healthy when I get like that.

midnite, you don't take rejection well? Welcome to the club. *I won't pry. You seem upset enough tonight*

Pry all you want Heather. No secrets tonight.

Well, what's the problem? How long have you been with the guy? What's a goin on?

A year and four months we've been dating. He wont ever let me touch him, kiss him, love on him, nothing. For the past three weeks he's barely talked to me, for the past three weekends he's wanted nothing to do with me and gone out of town without me. I cant tell you the last time he told me he loved me, nor can I tell you the last time he kissed me.

Midnite, I don't know what kind of response you want or if you're even looking for sympathy or anything... but even so, I am so sorry. I know how that must feel, and it has got to be awful. People can tell you "Just leave him, just leave him..." But it isn't always that easy, is it?

Whatever happens, you'll make the right choice. I have faith in you.

midnite, Oh dear. That's not a good sign. Do you feel that you could live without him?

Leah, I agree it's not easy, nor shall I imply that it should be.

Thanks Leah.

Heather: No I dont think I could live without him, that's the f**ked up part. There is just something about him. He's the only guy I've ever dated that I could see myself with forever. The only person I got used to sleeping in my bed with me ( if he's not around, I dont sleep **at all**). I never imgained finding a guy that would make me want to settle down, and he did. I enjoy cooking for him, and going to bed early with him. And no man has ever had that effect on me.

Girls? Leah, Mary? Midnite, this isn't something that I can advise you on in one night. Midnite, do you love you? *please don't yell at me for asking* I have relatives in BAMA!

I wish I could do something to make you feel better, midnite. ((hugs)) You have my support!

Do I love me? Sometimes, right now and recently? Absolutely Not.. I have problems sometimes. Like I said I've suffered from severe depression in the past, and I dont deal with it very well. So no, I guess I dont love me, I dont even know if I like me sometimes. I feel like I fail at everything, especially love. I feel like I am going to die alone.

Midnite, please, if you want to talk, rant, cry, vent, whatever--email me. I'll be here for you. love.actually.is.all.around@gmail.com

I am an excellent listener and I don't know about you, but when I am having problems like this (as I currently am) it always feels better to have someone to talk to. And to me, not having someone only makes things worse. So, please. I will do anything I can to help you. Peace.

midnite, this is awful to hear. Ashley shines through. You are not the only one. I was there too. Not too long ago, and more than once. Some of the guys I chose treated me poorly. It hurt like hell. *patting your shoulder*

Thanks Leah. I do appreciate that.

Heather: You're right. It does hurt like to hell. I feel like my heart is being ripped out of my chest right now and stepped all over.

sure! That's a feeling I know all too well. Didn't know what to do. I'll need some help from the group on this one. I don't have the words to say at the present time. They just wont come.

midnite, I like you. That's a start. Don't you go thinkin about harming yourself. I have depression too. Tons of Americans do. You have everything going for you. How could you not like you? God girl. What a heck of a future you have ahead of you!! Your schooling and all. Lucky dog!

midnite, you posted your picture here. You are gorgeous! Why should you worry? I'd say HA! The world is my oyster, and I'm gonna live life to the fullest!

If it's any consolation my ex boyfriend said his mom hated me and it was either me or his car and he choose his stupid car. But then I met my new guy and whenever I hear him or see him I just smile.

Things may seem unbearable, but maybe you should try to find some new hobbies or something first before you leave him (if you do) so the transition is better. If you like animals, volunteer at the animal shelter. Start a book club. Bake pies and cakes and then sell them. Once you realize how much you can rock without him it will be easier to decide.

On the video... I feel bad for her but I could do better. No I will do better! I'll show all of you! THIS is dancing!

I love the fact that I now have a really fufilling life and all he does is drink and be ignored by his former friends (now my friends).

Yeah I'm guilty of pride. Pray for me to have humility.

Jess, this is good advice.....midnite, I respect the fact that you work and go to school. Poor Jess. The car won out? *making a sad face for you*

That's ok because he's going to drive it drunk and crash and I'm going to New York City Saturday all expense paid by my XC team!

I'm worth more then a car. I am young and hopeful and have an unending supply of love, you can't put a price tag on me.

Jess, yes. You are worth more than a car. I just looked at the time. I can't believe I've been here all day.

Doug, (moved from Hannity...)

MK: On Siamese twins...

"In no way is this just "my valuation." Society is saying it's okay because the unborn are inside the body of a person. Of course some people, you included, disagree with this, but what I said is true - it makes a huge difference that the unborn are inside the body of a person, as opposed to not being there, i.e. born. With birth comes attribution of right to life, etc."

This was in response to the argument we were having with Enigma about the Siamese twins...

I then asked you if it would be different if the babies were carried on the outside like marsupials, and you replied the woman could cut the cord...

Tell me though, if the child was on the outside of the mothers body only attached by a cord, but would die if that cord was cut, you still would not consider the child a person?

There's not enough information there for me to say. I don't see the cord or not, or dying or not if the cord was cut, as determining personhood. I've already said that I do see some personhood developing late in gestation, as the fetus becomes conscious, tending toward how most full-term, born babies are. That would be the same were the baby on the outside of the mother's body.

The question of right-to-life remains, here, and it's a different situation from most late-term pregnancies where delivery could end the pregnancy while preserving the baby's life.

If the cord being cut means the baby dies, and the baby has the consciousness I describe, then it's a tough question for me, since there is also the question of the woman's body being used against her will, possibly.

Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 9, 2007 11:04 PM

Doug,

"No, MK, it's not a valuation. It's a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it's not a valuation."

MK: How is that NOT a valuation... You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the "valuation" that this was not a person...

Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm.

Doug

I know that Doug. My point was that based on your judgment of when sentience begins, you have made a valuation that it is okay to kill these babies up to 24 weeks. The valuation was not that they are sentient, but that based on your personal determination (even tho science doesn't feel qualified to make this judgment) you have valuated that it is morally acceptable to kill.

And quite honestly, since there is no "proof", your judgment is based on nothing more than your personal view...Dougs determination of sentience = right to kill. That sure sounds like a valuation to me.

Doug's response:

Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm.

Oh good grief, Doug. You can't really be missing this point.
Think about this. What is the REASON that you want to determine if sentience is there?

To determine how you value the fetus!

It is your VALUATION!

Midnite! I have been where you are. Goodness, that is so terrible. I feel so bad for you.
You need to learn that you are worth something without him! I remember crying (and pulling my hair out even) every night for 3 months over some jerk I used to know. I thought my life was ending. I thank God that I lost him now. But it took me so long to realize it. Please, Midnite. He is a big part of the reason that you don't love yourself or value yourself. You need to find someone who will treat you right. Someone who will tell you they love you without skipping a beat. Someone who will want to spend all day cuddling you. Someone who will treat you the way you should be treated. I know you want that man to be the one you're with, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. You have to make a choice. Do you want to be degraded, insulted, treated horribly all of your life, just so that you can be with this guy?
Or do you want to break free, go through some heartache for a little while, then find someone new who will treat you like you should be treated? I know it's hard to believe there's someone else out there, but Midnite, believe me, there is. Please don't let this guy keep destroying your life. He is a jerk.

Midnite, 10:19p, said: "I dont know Mary. I just tried to talk to him about a bunch of things that were bothering me. I just sat there and told him how he's basically ignored me for three weeks and wanted nothing to do with me for three weekends and he just stared at me. I tell him I love him all the time and most of the time he doesnt respond and if he does it's "you too" response. Then I told him his actions make it quite apparent that he does not love me and does not care about me and his response was "OK Ashley, whatever".I sat there and spilled my heart about how I felt about everything and he just stared at me with this blank look on his face..."

Midnite, my dear cyber friend, with all gentleness I say he is already gone, and your clinging to him is only pushing him further away. The only, only chance you have of keeping him is to part company with him. Make it civil, but tell him you need to move on.

You can't do that with the motive of getting him back. You must say good-bye and mean it, but the psychological reality is that doing so sometimes has the opposite effect.

I wish I could find the verbatim classic James Dobson story on this, but here's the recap:

He and Shirley were dating in college. She was a homecoming queen, beautiful. But there came a time in the relationship when he got cold feet, felt caged.

They were driving somewhere and he told her he thought they needed to see other people.

He said later that their relationship came down to that moment. If she had handled it wrong, they would have parted company forever. If she had said, "No, Jim, please..." it would have driven him away.

Instead, Shirley sat for a moment and said, "You know, Jim, I think you're right. I think we should see other people."

Dobson said that had the opposite impact on him. He immediately wanted not to break up with Shirley. And I don't recall whether it was during that same conversation or within days, but he told her he had changed his mind. And the rest is history.

You may think this is game-playing. But it's human psychology, Midnite. You know how you feel around clingy people.

On a related note, you lose your self-respect when you cling and let everything out. Midnite, you're on a spiral down on self-respect, and you have to stop. You have to just stop. You need to maintain dignity, a little mystery. Read some books on Jackie Kennedy. She was the classic role model on this. I'll send you a book of her quotes if you email me your address.

This all hurts terribly, I know. We all can look back to relationships where we lost someone we loved very much, and we behaved this way in the process, and the whole thing was terrible.

I just started to tell you my worst personal story on this, and it's so embarrassing I deleted it. So I've been there, Midnite.

God speed, Midnite. We're here for you. If your boyfriend doesn't appreciate you just as you are, he does not deserve you.

You think you can't live without him. That is not true.

Midnite,
What would you advise someone in your place to do? It will be hard to do but don't wait, it will only get harder. I went through this same thing three times and I have to agree that it sucks, but look, i'm still standing! I promise, you will survive it.

Midnite,

OK my dear, kid gloves are off. (Standing with my hands on my hips and tapping my foot).
Can we say MENTAL ABUSE? We on this blog see exactly what's going on. You, a beautiful, intelligent young woman, are begging a man for his love and attention? Midnite you are degrading yourself! You're crawling. Dammit woman stand up and have more respect for yourself! Take control of your life! (I'm now shaking a finger under your nose). You should have men seeking your love and attention and considering themselves damned lucky to have it!
He abuses you for one simple reason, you take it, and only you have the power to stop it. MIdnite this relationship is pathological and is slowing destroying you(I'm now clenching my fists and shouting arghhhhhhhhh!).

I know this is an easy situation to fall into and I have a few more times than I care to admit.
You love someone, he/she will change, they really love me but just have their bad days, ok so she/he has lied a few times, on and on.........
Enough already!(I'm slamming my hand on the table). Make the decision you want to get out, that is the first, most difficult, and painful step, but MAKE IT! You'll find a huge sense of relief when you do, and you'll also realize what he does matters little in your life, you're breaking up anyway. Do you have friends nearby? Seek out their support and companionship. They no doubt think just like we do. Involve yourself in activities. Go out with girlfriends. If other far more deserving men ask you out, GO! You don't have to be in love with them, but go out to dinner and a movie. It will build your self esteem and enable to see there are men who truly deserve you. You might even have a good time and realize what you have been missing.

Also, does your college provide counselling services? Mine did years ago free of charge by the psychology dept. If necessary talk to a professional. Breaking up like this can be grueling and result in severe depression, as I know only too well. Expect that and seek the help you may need.

Another thing Midnite, expect the "little boy lost" act. As soon as he sees himself losing control he'll resort to that. If I had a dime for every time I fell for that one I could retire tomorrow. I promise you its a trip back to square one if you let yourself be taken in by it.

I'm not unsympathetic Midnite. My situation when I was your age was so like yours its scary, and the depression I went through was devastating. The steps I advised you to take concerning friends, activities and dating were my salvation. I promise you, you will look back and be thankful for making the decision and taking the action needed to get out of this trap.
(I'm now getting out of my chair and going for a cup of coffee).

Midnite, I want you to know this too. It's not easy to let your guard down! I really hate to do it here too much. Some people will make fun of your situations. Your real friends wont though. I went out with a man who I later found out was bisexual. *cringes* He had been married twice, so there were no tell tale signs. I was in love with the man. Head over heels! He's now parading around Las Vegas in a dress. It ripped my heart out........okay *hand is shaking on the way to the submit button*

She looked like she was on something. I had to rewind it like three times on my DVR just to believe that was her!! She looked kind of dead in a way, not all there in the cabeza! And as far as her body, I thought she looked fine, just like another person said up there, she isn't hollywood anorexic that's why they are bashing on her physique. She looks great after having two babies almost back to back!

Welcome,Ruth. That's my daughter's middle name.

I just wish he would realize how great I am and love me for who I am. Is that too much to ask for?

And his bestfriend is my boss, we have the same friends. Id be screwed basically. I dont know what I would do.

midnite, when it rains ir pours. His BF is your boss? EEK! Where are my girls??

Midnite,

I just wish he would realize how great I am and love me for who I am. Is that too much to ask for?

Apparently, the answer is yes. That is too much to ask for. He will not realize how great you are. (Notice I said "will" and not "doesn't")

Now the question is, can I live with that, or do I move on?

Midnite -

You have been given some great advice, so I'm not going to repeat what has already been spoken.

We love you. It sounds strange considering some of the conversations on here, but you are worthy of this love.

This may also sound strange, but try to find Bette Midler's son "I'm Beautiful". It is one of the cheesiest songs I have ever heard, but it is a fun song. When I was in my severe depression, before the heavy medication ;-), I would play that song as loud as possible and just belt out the words. Always made me laugh. I just love the Devine Miss M.!

Now for Britney -

(this may have all been said - I didn't have time to read everything)

At the beginning she did seem out of it, but she seemed to get her "stuff" together at the end. This is her first public appearance since her weird behavior. Maybe she was just nervous?

As for her body. I think it is horrible that people are picking on her with that. I was at the grocery store a couple weeks ago and on the news stands were all "those" magazines. On the front cover of one they were critisizing Nicole Richey for being too skinny and on the cover of another one they were critisizing Janet Jackson for gaining 8 pounds. No wonder we have an eating disorder epidemic going on with the teens!

She looked wonderful and I wish more artists had the courage to be seen on stage "less than perfect".

(Now I have to go call my therapist. Did I really just stand up for Britney Spears?)

Jill: "Midnite, my dear cyber friend, with all gentleness I say he is already gone, and your clinging to him is only pushing him further away. The only, only chance you have of keeping him is to part company with him. Make it civil, but tell him you need to move on."

Midnite, a male perspective: Jill is completely right on. Yes it hurts, yes it will be uncomfortable at times, yes, there will be some 1) upheaval, but all of us have been there or somewhere similar, and from my experience, it starts getting better as soon as you make the decision to move on. You are in the "darkness before the dawn" stage. You have learned wonderful things about yourself while with this man, about your capacity to love and embrace relationships, now you have to learn that those things come from you and not from him, and that other men might (almost certainly) be even a better match for your life and goals. My advice, 1) take Leah up on her offer to talk, and 2) find the strength to move on, you'll be proud of yourself 30 days from now.

I hope everything goes well for you, midnite! Take care.

hal, well put!

I don't think that Britney is fat at all. Granted she did have 2 children, but I think that "Wardrobe" could have found her something a bit more flattering to wear. Maybe some long sequined pants instead of the shorts....or was that underwear?

Hal -

Perfectly said....

Midnite,

I just wish he would realize how great I am and love me for who I am. Is that too much to ask for?
YES! Quit begging. The hell with him. If he hasn't realized this by now he never will. Your only answer is to move on.
You have mutual friends and his best friend is your boss? So what. If they're truly your friends they will be there for you. If not, you didn't lose anything. I've been in the middle of situations like this and am right now. I don't take sides and maintain friendships with both, though I'm careful not to let one of the parties know! My dear you are looking for excuses here and they ain't gonna fly with me!

Another thing Midnite, you have actually enabled Hal and me to agree on something. His advise is right on.

And me too! Hello Mary!

Hello Heather, and everyone else here this morning!

Midnite, I agree. The hardest thing to hear people say is " Move on." I've heard it, but my stubborn will wouldn't allow me to actually DO it. I agree with Mary. Jump ship now. The longer you wait, the more difficult it becomes. I've literally sobbed on the floor, pounding my fists on it, more times than I care to admit when it came to one of my failed relationships. You'll cry. Just tell him "We need to talk."...let the words flow from there. If you make the choice to leave him, that is.

OK
Brittney:
She looked very out of it and she obviously needed at least one more run through before the show. I think she thought it would be like jumping right back on the old horse and it wasn't.

As far as her body goes. I don't think she looked bad but she should have looked much better. I don't blame her pregnancies for her body shape. I blame all of the boozing around and partying that put her in that condition. She is a professional entertainer and professional entertainers get paid to look good. It goes with the territory. It was unprofessional of her to not be in the best shape and sound mind to perform. She blew a great opportunity. Obviously the girl needs help.

Midnite:
I have never addressed your boyfriend troubles, but have read enough to give my opinion. You can take it or not. Get rid of him. We have all been there done that. There are so many other wonderful opportunities out there for you.

You will find the right guy and this loser will be history in your mind. Everyone is right the harder you push to keep him in your life the further he will run away.

Read the Book "He's just not that into you"

It is supposed to be a great read for women in your situation.
Good luck.

Sandy, Great post! I wish I'd known about that book when I was hurting. What is it about?

Wait! Are you the same Jill Stanek that works so hard for the pro-life cause? Something's not adding up here. Save babies but diss Britney? Color me confused?!?

Hey Heather,
This guy Greg "something" has been on Oprah and for awhile had his own talk show. He may still, I don't watch TV too much so I don't know for sure, but he was great on Oprah. The book basically covers how to know when a guy is just "not that into you" so you can move on and find someone who is. The whole point is that women waste too much time and energy on men who could care less about them and will never marry them. He is hysterically funny and makes soooo much sense. The book sounds like it has alot of encouragement and with some humor mixed in.

I guess in my opinion, it is better to be single and alone than to be with someone and be lonely.

Net,
What's your point?

Sandy, I agree. I know a few women who could use that book.

I've read "Why Men like Bitches" and "Why Men Marry Bitches" like a thousand times now. Still hasnt sunk in I guess.

Net, I think what Jill was saying is that Spears is supposed to be a role model to her fans. She was scantily clad, and either drunk or medicated. I agree with your post, Sandy. She could have looked a lot better, and I also choose to blame it on her excessive partying.

Really random but I hope it make you feel a little better -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kVuJdibDGsI
My dwarf did that when she was a baby, only she managed to fling herself right out of the cage! She was ok but really confused : )

ooops, sorry for the double post!

Midnite,

No one made a man's life a living hell like my youngest daughter. I felt so sorry for those guys who she treated like absolute dog poop. They grovelled. I could only assume she had a talent for picking masochists. She obviously didn't learn this from me, as you can gather from reading my posts!

Hi Midnite. How do you feel this morning?

Sandy, it just doesn't add up to me. I'm disappointed in this post. Jill's pro-life pieces are very solid.

Midnite,

I must admit there were relationships in my life where I could certainly have used a page out of my daughter's book!

Net,

Could you please be more specific? Thank you.

Jess, thanks for the cute video. LOL!

Midnite,
What is the premise of those books?? Sheeezzz

I think his friends will think you are a strong person for doing the right thing by breaking it off with him. You would be surprised how much support you will get from people you never expected. There could be guys just waiting in the wings for you to dump this guy so they can ask you out. Your boss will probably give you a raise for being smart and taking more control of your life.

Jess -

Thanks for the laugh! I woke my daughter up again with my "snort" of a laugh. I should learn not to be on here when she is sleeping!

Net -

I'm confused by your point. She posted a section of an article after admitting this topic has nothing to do with pro-life. And her comments were about her performance which was really bad in comparrison to her usual performances. I don't see where one has to do with another.

I second what Sandy said. You didn't develop these feelings for him overnight. You aren't going to lose them overnight. Taking that first step, is the first step toward moving on and healing. If you stay together, I can almost guarantee that you will become more and more resentful of him than you are now. I know a lot of people in toxic relationships. Some move on, and some stay in misery. Ultimately, the choice is yours. After I stayed solo for a while, I began to like myself better. I can't believe I put up with some of the things I used to.

Okay, Mary, I will try. In this world, to me, you are either for people or against people. The unborn are the most volatile human beings around. To love them to the extent you will go out of your way to create such wonderful coverage (I'm referring to Aurora/PP) in their defense, is a strong "for people" instance. To turn around and put a cheap shot video up of Britney. (Well ... anyone can do that!) This would be an instance of "against people" to me. I come to this site to pull great links off of it to enlighten the masses about the Aurora/PP happenings. So I was surprised when I clicked in and saw the video. That's all ... I'm just not aware of this site's contents ...

Net -

Fighting Irish!!!!!!!

Go Notre Dame!!!!

Sandy,

How right you are about guys waiting in the wings for Midnite. I didn't even think of that. Guys who I'm sure would treat her the way she deserves to be treated.

Net -

IMO - This is the kind of stuff we need. Most of us here are on a good portion of the day. We are exposed to things that we never could have imagined. This type of thread helps us to keep our energy. It gives us an opportunity to meet each other without the arguments. It helps us help each other. It may be petty, but something that is really needed here. It helps us to breath....

did that make sense? Basically, it helps us keep the good fight, as odd as that may be.

Hey Net,
Valerie has a great point. I had my opinions on Brittney, but hadn't shared them with anyone until this came up on the site. I was interesting to see what everyone else thinks. Sometimes when Jill throws topics like that out people from both sides find they can agree on something which is nice.

Heather,
"Welcome,Ruth. That's my daughter's middle name"

Hey! mine too! Love the name Ruth.

Midnite,
"He wont ever let me touch him, kiss him, love on him, nothing. For the past three weeks he's barely talked to me, for the past three weekends he's wanted nothing to do with me and gone out of town without me. I cant tell you the last time he told me he loved me, nor can I tell you the last time he kissed me."

This may be the wrong time to ask,(sometimes i'm too blunt for my own good) but do you think maybe he is seeing someone else?

Yes, it's a harmless, cooling off piece that breaks up the tension in the heated abortion debates. It's a little break to have permission to go off topic for a while. Abortion raises my blood pressure. Brit does not.

Hi Rosie!

One more time on Bittney, I hate to say this, but Hollywood almost makes it look cool when someone acts this way. Lindsey Lohan does cocaine and smashes a car. What does she get? More press. Niclole Ritchie drops to a mere 86 pounds, and what happens? More press. Kate Moss does cocaine. What happens? More jobs offers. After Anna Nicole's death, the media kept showing that tape of her stoned to the gills on some awards show. Look at Whitney Houston. The drug abuse and, marriage to a bad boy brought her more attention. I really wonder why these girls minds are so mixed up...Oh, and Paris in jail, more press and magazine covers.

Heather,

Whitney Houston. Such a gorgeous and gifted, more than just talented, woman. Drugs did her in and I doubt she'll ever bounce back.

Hahaha, Valerie:

Did you see the game between Penn State and Notre Dame? GO NITTANY LIONS!!

Mary,

I've felt that about Whitney Houston. Her voice was amazing, I loved hearing her sing. Watching her on Being Bobby Brown was more than disheartening.

I loved the movie The Preacher's Wife, I wished she had ended up with Denzel, they would have been perfect together...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUGJtA45sDo

jkeller,

They would have made one beautiful pair that's for certain. Her life would probably have had a much happier outcome.

Lyssie, welcome back!

I didn´t love Britney´s outfit but it was nice to see a woman who is not stick skinny for a change.

As for how she was acting, what is it about the entertainment business that turns people into zombies? She started out so delightful.

Mary, Lyssie, and JKellar, hello all! Had to go outside on the porch for a little bit. We are having a gorgeous day here! Yes, Whitney Houston is beautiful! I feel badly for her. I don't know if a come back is in the cards for her or not. Some folks on TV are saying that Lindsey Lohan and Britney won't ever make a come back either.................time will tell.

hi hippie! I missed your post.

"I loved the movie The Preacher's Wife, I wished she had ended up with Denzel, they would have been perfect together..."

OMG...I can agree with this statement.

Personally, I hope Lindsey Lohan and Britney Spears are unable to make a "come-back". I think both are completely talentless and I think the entertainment business would be better off without them.

Rae, hi. Frankly, I agree with you on Lohan. I have heard comedian, Kathy Griffith talk about her on her show. She sounds like a real piece of work.

Rae,

Welcome back. I've been wanting to know how your new treatment has been working for you.

I have no doubt that she is. A lot of those li'l "starlets" are pieces of work. I have no doubt that a lot of celebrities are a pain in the arse, probably why I would never want to meet them (except Darren Hayes).

*sigh*

So much money, so little talent.

Britney, after this stunt, it could go either way.

Rae, I knew a guy who used to drive a limo. He carted a few celebrities around in Vegas. He told me about his experiences with quite a few.@@ He said that that Barbra Streisand was one of the absolute worst!! Jennifer Lopez and Dionne Warwick were also "difficult." He said that Ben Affleck and Brad Pitt were both very nice!

"Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm."

MK: I know that Doug. My point was that based on your judgment of when sentience begins, you have made a valuation that it is okay to kill these babies up to 24 weeks. The valuation was not that they are sentient, but that based on your personal determination (even tho science doesn't feel qualified to make this judgment) you have valuated that it is morally acceptable to kill.

Well, here's what you said:

I was just about to post that Doug's valuation is that the fetus is not sentient, while the scientific community's valuation is that it is not qualified to make a definitive statement one way or the other.

So it's really not my valuation "that the fetus is not sentient." Valuation in this case is coming from there being no sentience, or certainly no proof of sentience. The determination of sentience comes first, come what may, and then the valuation takes place.

.......

And quite honestly, since there is no "proof", your judgment is based on nothing more than your personal view...Dougs determination of sentience = right to kill. That sure sounds like a valuation to me.

You asked for how I'd do it.... Again, "sentience" does indeed bring with it a presumption of mental consciousness, and pre-viability we have no good reason to think that is present. The cerebral cortex, where that activity takes place, is not developed enough, not connected or operational enough. There are not the brain waves we see when consciousness is present.

Doug

"Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm."

Bethany: Oh good grief, Doug. You can't really be missing this point.

I'm not, Bethany, but MK was, at least for a while, and you still are. The determination ( such as it is) comes first. It is a separate thing. Then valuation comes next in this case. Two different things.

......

Think about this. What is the REASON that you want to determine if sentience is there? To determine how you value the fetus! It is your VALUATION!

Again, it's two different things. Sentience matters to me, from the get-go, and in MK's hypothetical I am going to base some valuation on that, yes. However, the determination of sentience or not is a separate step, a different process.

Doug

Doug,
So it's really not my valuation "that the fetus is not sentient." Valuation in this case is coming from there being no sentience, or certainly no proof of sentience. The determination of sentience comes first, come what may, and then the valuation takes place.

Yes, but in this case there is no determination to be made, and so you must decide for yourself. Perhaps we should say e-valuation, but the point is that you have looked at the lack of evidence and come to a conclusion based on your own opinion. Then you used that opinion to make a valuation. Must you always nitpick...you knew exactly what we meant.

The point is that you HAVE made a valuation, that could possibly be costing billions of lives, based on nothing but your opinion. Yet, you are the one always harping on the necessity for facts!

Fighting Irish!!!!!!!

Go Notre Dame!!!!

YEAH Valerie ! !

This weekend I'll be with my in-laws, Catholics and MAJOR Notre Dame fans. And, I hate Michigan. I had two brothers and my sister go to Ohio State.

Have to laugh this year, even though it's cruel.

Here's to the boys in the gold helmets! Come on Wolverines, 0 - 3 would be S W E E T.

It's my mother-in-law's 70th birthday, and there is a bigscreen TV in the place we're renting, but we also want to see the Florida- Tennessee game. So there is talk of going to a sports bar....

Lloyd Carr - that booty got to be heating up....

Lose, Michigan!

Doug (Now back to your regularly scheduled charitable program.)

If Britney wants to be on stage, I say it's on her, however she looks.

Tell you what, though, today I had a hankering for Annette Funicello.

Doug

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1NpyKU9olp4

For you Doug...

Doug,

Annette Funicello is severly disabled by multiple sclerosis. How tragic. I remember the original Mouseketeers and her career in movies. Always a very decent and upstanding woman. She was always such a doll too. I haven't heard anything lately of her.

"So it's really not my valuation "that the fetus is not sentient." Valuation in this case is coming from there being no sentience, or certainly no proof of sentience. The determination of sentience comes first, come what may, and then the valuation takes place."

MK: Yes, but in this case there is no determination to be made, and so you must decide for yourself. Perhaps we should say e-valuation, but the point is that you have looked at the lack of evidence and come to a conclusion based on your own opinion. Then you used that opinion to make a valuation. Must you always nitpick...you knew exactly what we meant.

Good grief, then why not just say that I value sentience? You've gone overboard with "valuation" posts, confusing valuation with the determination of facts, and if you're wrong, you're wrong.

.....

The point is that you HAVE made a valuation, that could possibly be costing billions of lives, based on nothing but your opinion. Yet, you are the one always harping on the necessity for facts!

Well, again - you asked for my opinion. "Costing" millions of lives -- that implies a need for those lives, does it not? I'm just asking here.

Doug

Mary, I thought she died.

(2006) Annette still lives in her first house a few miles from where she grew up. She has a collectable bear business, a line of perfume and she started the Annette Funicello Fund for Neurological Disorders

No, I was wrong. Although this is from 06, she is still alive. Sorry.

Doug,

that implies a need for those lives, does it not?

Good Grief is right! Technically, there is no NEED for anyones life! Including yours. So basically, you're saying that unless we can prove a life is needed it has NO value?!?

I love the song she sings in the video I posted. It's perfect for Jills site don't you think...I think...you think...

"that implies a need for those lives, does it not?"

Good Grief is right! Technically, there is no NEED for anyones life! Including yours. So basically, you're saying that unless we can prove a life is needed it has NO value?!?

MK, value is always in the eye of the beholder. I'm saying I would leave it up to the woman. We don't need the unborn life to the extent that we deny her desires in the matter. Nor do we need less lives to the extent that we force abortions on women with wanted pregnancies.

Doug

Because you say so...

Here's another video for you...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xGqsd-0rkwo

You ARE your ideal!

Doug,

MK, value is always in the eye of the beholder. I'm saying I would leave it up to the woman. We don't need the unborn life to the extent that we deny her desires in the matter. Nor do we need less lives to the extent that we force abortions on women with wanted pregnancies.

Again, that is YOUR valuation. Mine is that every life is important and needed if that is the will of God. Not my valuation, His.

And Doug,

Leaving it up to the woman is a cop-out. It's just a way to make you feel like your hands are clean. But it's the equivalent of driving the getaway car.

Mary: Whitney Houston. Such a gorgeous and gifted, more than just talented, woman. Drugs did her in and I doubt she'll ever bounce back.

She was too good for Bobby Brown. I'm sorry she ever got hooked up with him.

Doug

You ARE your ideal!

Ha! Pretty good, MK.

I am what I am, and I don't say that's "ideal." I do well enough IMO that I'm very happy with my life.

......

Again, that is YOUR valuation. Mine is that every life is important and needed if that is the will of God. Not my valuation, His.

Hmm.. I think we've been here before, no? Yes, I know you think that, but once again there is no proof of a god or gods, or indeed any such "higher" beings who presumably might have desires in the moral realm.

Meanwhile, it is fact that here we are, and everybody knows that both you and I have our opinions and desires as they relate to the abortion debate.

.......

Leaving it up to the woman is a cop-out. It's just a way to make you feel like your hands are clean. But it's the equivalent of driving the getaway car.

My hands aren't "clean" or "dirty" here. Your brand of religion does not necessarily apply to other people.

........

Thanks for that video -- Oh Annette....

Doug

Annette Funicello is severly disabled by multiple sclerosis. How tragic. I remember the original Mouseketeers and her career in movies. Always a very decent and upstanding woman. She was always such a doll too. I haven't heard anything lately of her.

Mary, yes - and that is so sad. Yeah, "such a doll" is about it!

Doug

Heather,

I'm glad to hear Annette is alive and apparently doing as well as can be expected.

Doug,

We definitely agree on Whitney. Bobby is a mistake she paid a terrible price for. She could have had her pick of men.

Yes, Doug, Everyone knows we disagree. However, you keep acting like now that that's settled we should do it your way...

And what Bethany and I want to know, is WHY? If we have come to a stalemate, an impasse, why does the point go to you?

Just because you have people that agree with you?
Just because I can't prove I'm right. (Neither can you)
Just because "the law" says so?

I'm sorry, but none of those make it any more "right" that you should have your way. If we were talking about Cocoa Krispies vs Apple Jacks, I could let it go...but lives are on the line and frankly, your cavalier attitude is frightening.

The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference. And you're filthy with it.

“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.”

Elie Wiesel

Mary, yes. She is alive. I did a search. I posted an apology above.

Mary,

Doug,

We definitely agree on Whitney. Bobby is a mistake she paid a terrible price for. She could have had her pick of men.

Maybe midnite could learn a lesson from her...

Lyssie -

"Did you see the game between Penn State and Notre Dame? GO NITTANY LIONS!! "

AACCCCKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!

Yes, Doug, Everyone knows we disagree. However, you keep acting like now that that's settled we should do it your way...

MK, I do think we should let women have the freedom they now do in the matter. I've never claimed that my desire/opinion/valuation is "external" or "absolute" unlike some people, however. I say that we ought to have a darn good reason for infringing on somebody's liberty, and pregnant women are "somebody" without doubt - thinking, feeling people. I know you and many others feel the unborn are "somebody" too and that legal abortion infringes on their lives, but the "thinking, feeling people" is certainly at least in doubt to a point in gestation, and I give the nod to women.
........

And what Bethany and I want to know, is WHY? If we have come to a stalemate, an impasse, why does the point go to you?

Where have I said it's done; finished? I haven't said that. I don't say that Roe cannot be overturned - I know it's not impossible. That is not attributing personhood to the unborn, far from it, but even the granting of personhood is not impossible, at least in theory. Just my own personal guess here - and obviously the next Presidential election and future ones could impact this, but I'd give Roe a 35% chance of being overturned. True personhood for the unborn - less than 1% probability.
.......

Just because you have people that agree with you?

:: laughing :: No, not at all. More in a minute....
........

Just because I can't prove I'm right. (Neither can you)

There is no such "proving," since morality is subjective. If we start with a given desire, then there are logical courses to follow, but the initial desire can be one thing or another. We have the Birth Standard for rights and personhood, but it doesn't "have" to be that way. It all really does come down to desire and valuation, and as far as the law it depends on what the sufficient opinion is - what opinion has enough "weight" behind it - the impetus necessary for it to be expressed in law.
........

Just because "the law" says so?

No - as above the law can change, and I would argue the same way if it were 1965, for example, although I'd need to be my present age, rather than 6.
........

The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference. And you're filthy with it.

Oh Please. You can't prove that it's "bad" to be "indifferent" as I am. Geez - how "horrible" - I say let women have the freedom and liberty they do! You want to subvert their will to yours, just as slaveowners wanted the will of slaves subverted to theirs. You are putting the unthinking, unfeeling unborn above thinking, feeling people - pregnant women, and if there is a "filth" here I think it's that, especially in lieu of any demonstrable proof on your side that we *need* to take away the women's freedom.

It's a given that we both have our opinions. I go with the opinion of the woman who is actually the one pregnant.
.....

“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.” --Elie Wiesel

The opposite of life is no life, so I'd say death qualifies, or no existence at all in the first place. On art - that sounds pretty good. The opposite of love is not indifference. The opposite of positive valuation is negative valuation, call it what you wish. As far as "faith," the opposite can be truth.

Doug

MK: I'm sorry, but none of those make it any more "right" that you should have your way. If we were talking about Cocoa Krispies vs Apple Jacks, I could let it go...but lives are on the line and frankly, your cavalier attitude is frightening.

MK, I picked this one out for its own post.

That's incorrect - from many standpoints I am right, just as from many you are. I'm not "cavalier," I care about pregnant women. I don't want them to suffer, and for many women it would indeed be suffering if they were denied what they are now legally entitled to. I don't see you as presenting a persuasive argument nor any demonstrable need to do as you say, and in lieu of those I think it's best to let pregnant women keep the freedom they now have.

Bottom line - I know you don't like the idea of abortion, but I don't see you as having a good enough reason to tell those women what to do, whether it be end a pregnancy, continue a pregnancy, eat Cocoa Krispies, etc.

Doug

We definitely agree on Whitney. Bobby is a mistake she paid a terrible price for. She could have had her pick of men.

MK, I was out in New Mexico in 1994, and in an electrical substation there were spiders galore, tarantulas and black widows.

I called one co-worker over to see this black widow that had set up shop in a little metal box right by where we had to work.

He comes over, sees the spider, and says, "Well, the only black widow I'm interested in is the one after Whitney Houston's husband dies...."

Doug

anyone heard from Midnite? How's she doing?

MaryKay, I like you and Bethany a lot, and I imagine you despair at me/of me, and that there are people like me. I'm thinking you probably (even more sure than that) feel like one of my favorite poems, by Harry Kemp, 1883-1960

Blind

The Spring blew trumpets of color;
Her Green sang in my brain -
I heard a blind man groping
"Tap - tap" with his cane.

I pitied him in his blindness;
But can I boast, "I see"?
Perhaps there walks a spirit
Close by, who pities me, -

A spirit who hears me tapping
The five-sensed cane of mind
Amid such unguessed glories --
That I am worse than blind.

I've loved that ever since I first read it.

Doug

Doug,

That pretty much sums it up...now you have to ask yourself why you've loved it? Could it be because you want to see, too?

The poem was beautiful. And that is exactly how I feel about you and others like you...All that indifference and if only you could see you'd know that I've been standing here holding out a pair of glasses...but of course, you can't see that, can you?

Well, onward...perhaps one day. But know, that it isn't a matter of changing your mind. Which is what you want me to do. It's a matter of changing your heart. Which is something only you can do...

peace.

Doug,

Carder, sure, but you don't need them to give up on their dreams and desires, regardless of what success they later have. It's not up to you, any more than your choices are up to them.

The difference between us is that you are taking the side of a group of people that could have prevented the tragedy to begin with, by refraining from performing the action that leads to pregnancy, and the group that has a voice.

We, on the other hand, are taking up the cause of the group of people that are in no way culpable, for the circumstances that they find themselves in. Nor do they have a voice.

It's like blaming the rape victim for the rape.

And while you say we are trying to subvert the will of women to our own wills as the slave owners did to the slaves, I would say that you are submitting the unborn to the same bondage, even to the point of ending their lives.

If you take away the right to life, then all other rights become void of meaning. They become valueless. While other places have removed the right to wear what they want, watch what they want and say what they want, without the right to live, what does that matter?
Posted by: mk at September 12, 2007 7:34 AM

Doug,

It's silly to say that "tasting begins at that time." I have seen any number of such obfuscations if not worse.

http://www.crossroadsprc.org/development.php = a good, general, and unbiased site.

Says, "taste buds form" in week 24. Not to mention that the taste center in the brain isn't connected, developed or operational enough until the weeks late in the 20s.

It also says:

Week Thirteen
Your baby begins to practice inhaling and exhaling movements
Baby's neck is getting longer, and the chin no longer is resting on his chest
Her hands are functional - Your baby may start playing with her fist.
At this point all nourishment is received from the placenta

Week Fourteen
Thyroid gland has matured and baby produces hormones to be used throughout his life.
In boys, the prostate gland develops
In girls, the ovaries move from the abdomen to the pelvis
Your little one may have learned to suck his thumb by this point!
Your child's bones are getting harder and stronger by the day!
Lanugo (very fine hair) covers the baby's body and will continue to grow until 26 weeks.
Your baby is 3.4 inches long and weighs about 1.5 ounces.

Week Nineteen
Your baby has the same awake and sleep patterns of a newborn. He has a favorite position for sleep and recognizable active and rest periods.
Scalp hair becomes visible.
The milk teeth buds have already developed and the buds for permanent teeth will form behind the milk teeth.
If you're having a girl, the vagina, uterus, and fallopian tubes are in place.
If it's a boy, the genitals are distinct and recognizable.
Your baby is swallowing amniotic fluid and his or her kidneys are making urine.

Week Twenty
You're half way there!
The baby's heart grows stronger.
His legs are reaching their relative size. You will start feeling much more than tiny flutter kicks soon!
Immunities are being transferred from you to your baby now. These immune cells will protect her from viruses you've already had for up to six months after birth!
The nerve cells for taste, smell, hearing, seeing, and touch develop in specialized areas of the brain.
Your baby may react to loud sounds, as she can hear noises outside of the womb. Familiar voices, music, and sounds that baby becomes accustomed to during her development stages often are calming after birth.

This is ALL off of YOUR website...
Sounds pretty sentient to me...

Week 9

Sometime in the last few days, the first detectable brain waves went coursing through your baby's head. What kind of thoughts might she be thinking? She's nearing an inch in length, about a big as your pinky toe.

Parents.com

If you are really interested in what happens in the womb, I suggest you get and watch this...

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/video/

MaryKay, sorry I haven't been here much lately... Your posts have been wonderful.

MK, I do think we should let women have the freedom they now do in the matter. I've never claimed that my desire/opinion/valuation is "external" or "absolute" unlike some people, however. I say that we ought to have a darn good reason for infringing on somebody's liberty, and pregnant women are "somebody" without doubt - thinking, feeling people. I know you and many others feel the unborn are "somebody" too and that legal abortion infringes on their lives, but the "thinking, feeling people" is certainly at least in doubt to a point in gestation, and I give the nod to women.

But your valuation is that a sentient mind makes a person "somebody" and you believe that THAT valuation takes precedence over ours, simply because you believe it is better that way.

It is simply a valuation (as you say) and it is not any more valid than ours.

MaryKay, I like you and Bethany a lot, and I imagine you despair at me/of me, and that there are people like me.

I'm more weary with the circular arguments than your views themselves, Doug. We keep coming back to the same points again and again, and you refuse to acknowledge things that are clear as day, it seems just so that you can be right and have the last word.
You seem to always have to be right, even though you claim "it's all about valuation". Then you try to prove that your views aren't about valuation after all. It's very frustrating.

By the way, when did you first come to your pro-choice views? Was it before or after you got married? And, what were your parents views on the subject?
And I can see why a lot of your beliefs are the way they are with a humanist father and quaker mother.
Did your mother ever tell you, "Don't steal, it's wrong", or did she tell you that it was simply a valuation, depending on how much the item being stolen would be missed?

Did your mother ever tell you, "Don't steal, it's wrong", or did she tell you that it was simply a valuation, depending on how much the item being stolen would be missed?

Bethany,
Give me one of those emoticons...

Hi MK and Bethany! If you get a minute, go and see the PP/Arson post. {{A shocking newsflash}} SOMG has a moment of clarity. He actually claims to "feel sorry" for the aborted fetus!....why? It's only a blood clot, isn't it?

It must be difficult to keep up that PC "front" lie after lie after lie. I'm sure some folks will go to the grave believing in their cause, but those are people who continue to lie to themselves. The people who can't accept that an unborn fetus is just as human as we are.

Bethany,
Give me one of those emoticons...

Morning, heather...I'm headed there!

Bethany, I love those!

My response to the whole thing was to think that her manager should be taken out and shot. How could he set her up to perform when she so clearly wasn't ready?

The whole performance looked like she was just blocking it, to allow the techies to do lighting checks or something. Then I understand she was weeping inconsolably afterward.

It's painful enough to be self-destructing, but to be doing it with the world watching and gloating about it is worse.

Sorry, all you Notre Dame fans out there....I'm a die-hard Penn State lover. :) But believe me, we're united in our distaste for Michigan. Bunch of jerks, they are.

Who would of thought that Michigan's best chance for a W between App State, Oregon, and Notre Dame would be against Notre Dame? It looks like Charlie Weis and Brady Quinn wish they could have more time together as their teams are dreadful when they're apart.

Lyssie, I've always admired Joe Paterno, I and will usually pull for Penn State if they're playing a team other than Kentucky or Ohio State.

and I

jeez my brain and fingers need to get on the same page ;-)

Hal, 9/11, 10:46a: That was an excellet post. A male perspective was needed.

Net: Sorry I'm posting so long after your query. Valerie, Sandy, and Heather were right. Every now and then I post something like this Britney post to take a mental break from our topic. And as one of the three said, both sides can converse on these pop culture topics and find more in common.

MK: That pretty much sums it up...now you have to ask yourself why you've loved it? Could it be because you want to see, too?

I'm a sucker for good, basic rhymes - that's a big part of it. Iambic rock and roll....

.......

The poem was beautiful. And that is exactly how I feel about you and others like you...All that indifference and if only you could see you'd know that I've been standing here holding out a pair of glasses...but of course, you can't see that, can you?

Depends on how one looks at it. (Pun intended.) You see "indifference" or "blindness" and others see you fulfilling an emotional need by embracing the unproven.

......

Well, onward...perhaps one day. But know, that it isn't a matter of changing your mind. Which is what you want me to do. It's a matter of changing your heart. Which is something only you can do...

Hey -it'd be cool if somebody could change my mind, for that really would be a persuasive argument.

Doug

"Carder, sure, but you don't need them to give up on their dreams and desires, regardless of what success they later have. It's not up to you, any more than your choices are up to them."

MK: The difference between us is that you are taking the side of a group of people that could have prevented the tragedy to begin with, by refraining from performing the action that leads to pregnancy, and the group that has a voice.

We, on the other hand, are taking up the cause of the group of people that are in no way culpable, for the circumstances that they find themselves in. Nor do they have a voice.

It's not necessarily a "tragedy." Once a pregnancy is fact, it's too late for pregnancy prevention, and then many women see that their best choice is to end it. Sure, it could have been prevented, but stuff happens in life, and we're constantly faced with what is, not "what could have been prevented."

The unborn not only have no voice, they have no will. I'm going with thinking, feeling people, and you're going with the unborn where there's "nobody home" in a manner of speaking. I'm not saying the unborn are culpable. They're not. They're not to be "blamed." They still will be wanted, or unwanted, however.

.......

It's like blaming the rape victim for the rape.

I disagree. There's no will or volition for the unborn here. There's no capacity for guilt, in the first place.

........

And while you say we are trying to subvert the will of women to our own wills as the slave owners did to the slaves, I would say that you are submitting the unborn to the same bondage, even to the point of ending their lives.

No, because again - there's no will there. You may personify the unborn in your own mind, but they don't care. Women and the slaves certainly cared/care.

.......

If you take away the right to life, then all other rights become void of meaning. They become valueless. While other places have removed the right to wear what they want, watch what they want and say what they want, without the right to live, what does that matter?

It's not "taking away" any right. They're not attributed in the first place.

"It's silly to say that "tasting begins at that time." I have seen any number of such obfuscations if not worse."

http://www.crossroadsprc.org/development.php = a good, general, and unbiased site.

"Says, "taste buds form" in week 24. Not to mention that the taste center in the brain isn't connected, developed or operational enough until the weeks late in the 20s."

MK: It also says:

Week Thirteen Her hands are functional - Your baby may start playing with her fist.

Week Fourteen Your little one may have learned to suck his thumb by this point!

Week Nineteen Your baby has the same awake and sleep patterns of a newborn. He has a favorite position for sleep and recognizable active and rest periods.

Week Twenty Your baby may react to loud sounds, as she can hear noises outside of the womb. Familiar voices, music, and sounds that baby becomes accustomed to during her development stages often are calming after birth.

This is ALL off of YOUR website... Sounds pretty sentient to me...

We are again just disagreeing on the definition of the word, then. There's nothing there that's really conscious. Thumb-sucking = reflexive (or perhaps we should say 'instinctive'?) Sleep patterns and sleep positions and time cycles are not necessarily indicative of mental awareness, either. Same for reacting to loud sounds.

However - I realize that there is at least an argument about some of that. There are some gray areas which make for good discussion. I have no problem with those.

But then there is also the "brainwaves at six weeks" crowd....

Doug

MK: Sometime in the last few days, the first detectable brain waves went coursing through your baby's head. What kind of thoughts might she be thinking? She's nearing an inch in length, about a big as your pinky toe.

This is stretching the meaning of "brainwaves" to the breaking point.

"MK, I do think we should let women have the freedom they now do in the matter. I've never claimed that my desire/opinion/valuation is "external" or "absolute" unlike some people, however. I say that we ought to have a darn good reason for infringing on somebody's liberty, and pregnant women are "somebody" without doubt - thinking, feeling people. I know you and many others feel the unborn are "somebody" too and that legal abortion infringes on their lives, but the "thinking, feeling people" is certainly at least in doubt to a point in gestation, and I give the nod to women."

Bethany: But your valuation is that a sentient mind makes a person "somebody" and you believe that THAT valuation takes precedence over ours, simply because you believe it is better that way.

It is simply a valuation (as you say) and it is not any more valid than ours.

Hey, that's pretty good, but I don't say my valuation necessarily takes precedence over yours. I want it to, sure, because I want the choice left to the woman herself. But I'm not saying it "has" to be my way in any external way.

Doug

"MaryKay, I like you and Bethany a lot, and I imagine you despair at me/of me, and that there are people like me."

B: I'm more weary with the circular arguments than your views themselves, Doug. We keep coming back to the same points again and again, and you refuse to acknowledge things that are clear as day, it seems just so that you can be right and have the last word.
You seem to always have to be right, even though you claim "it's all about valuation". Then you try to prove that your views aren't about valuation after all. It's very frustrating.

Bethany, can you explain exactly what you see as circular?

What things that are clear as day do I not acknowledge? I do not have to be "right" as you say or imply. Sometimes there is no external "right," and it really is just a matter of opinion.

Good grief - as to what is really at argument with respect to abortion, stuff which is not a matter of physical reality - my views are certainly valuation or about valuation. No question about it.

........

By the way, when did you first come to your pro-choice views? Was it before or after you got married? And, what were your parents views on the subject? And I can see why a lot of your beliefs are the way they are with a humanist father and quaker mother.

My dad is pretty much against abortion. He doesn't like it - those are his exact words. He goes to a Methodist church - I think for over 20 years now - and he believes in the Christian God in a pretty "normal" way, so to speak. There is a good bit of humanism in him, too.

I was married in 2000, and it was in 1996/1997, when I started arguing abortion online, that I really felt "pro-choice." I hadn't thought about it much before that, and actually was probably vaguely pro-life, feeling that if ya didn't want to be pregnant ya shouldn't have gotten pregnant. The more I thought about it, however, the more I felt that there's not a good enough reason to deny what the pregnant woman wants, be it to end a pregnancy or to continue one.

......

Did your mother ever tell you, "Don't steal, it's wrong", or did she tell you that it was simply a valuation, depending on how much the item being stolen would be missed?

I don't remember any such statements. She likely did say the "it's wrong" stuff when we kids were really little, but I have no recollecton of it. People do need to learn how to get along in society, if they want to be in society, after all, and my parents did pretty well with us.

Doug

Heather: It must be difficult to keep up that PC "front" lie after lie after lie. I'm sure some folks will go to the grave believing in their cause, but those are people who continue to lie to themselves. The people who can't accept that an unborn fetus is just as human as we are.

Heather, the lying here is saying that people can't accept that the fetus in the argument is "just as human as we are."

It is. The DNA is there. That's not the argument.

Doug

Thanks for responding, Jill. I'm up early fetching more news stories of the 9-11 ACC meeting for our blog, and I enjoy your writing of this nature very much ... however, I think your reasoning for this post and others like it is akin to having a tough day at the office, so you come home and kick the dog. My daughter responded this way when I asked her opinion of this post (she's been active in the Aurora rallies right along with me and so she's aware of your drive for life) ... she said "That's just like dad throwing up a big headline/post on Fighting Irish Thomas that says "Ryan Seacrest is Gay!" (Now you guys are probably laughing, right? I laughed too because of how ridiculous that would be.) Okay, now that comment regarding this post was from a teenager. So it's like my daughter who IS a teenager is less "teenage" than you who are not. But as I said, I really do enjoy your pro-life posts ... it's MY fault (not yours!) that I put you up to the level of Mother Teresa. But it still was disappointing to find out you're like many in America who make fun of certain people (because they are somehow less human?). Like an unborn person, Britney IS in fact human. Do you see how you confused me with this post? God bless your work for the unborn, Jill. That vein of your work I fully understand.

Doug and Bethany,

Moved to the breastfeeding post!

IMO - This is the kind of stuff we need. Most of us here are on a good portion of the day. We are exposed to things that we never could have imagined. This type of thread helps us to keep our energy. It gives us an opportunity to meet each other without the arguments. It helps us help each other. It may be petty, but something that is really needed here. It helps us to breath....

did that make sense? Basically, it helps us keep the good fight, as odd as that may be.

Valerie ... thanks for your explanation ... I think I'm just out of my territory by coming to this site. I was only here to get good up-to-date info on the Aurora Battle, and Jill supplied that. We, regrettably, have taken her links off our site, though. Because we like consistency in the authors we feature. But in regard to Britney, she seems to be going through some pretty tough stuff ... and to give anyone a hard time that is already having hard times just seems ... well ... cruel. If that helps you guys to breathe, well, again ... I just don't understand that in connection to the pro-life cause.