That video says it all. About the lady who said that the abortionist told her to "shut up," That's not uncommon at all. I've been to many other sites where women have said the same thing.

Nice plug at the end there Jill!

Soooo, any reactions from the MSM?

Dougs posts from Paris Hilton post:

Doug,

It said brain STEM not brain...and our argument was whether or not a functioning thalamus, which is found in the brain stem, was proof of sentience.

But since we are switching terms (and I'll hold you to that) to consciousness, the point is moot.

Please define consciousness...
Posted by: mk at September 9, 2007 9:56 PM

Doug,

No, MK, it's not a valuation. It's a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it's not a valuation.

How is that NOT a valuation...
You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the "valuation" that this was not a person...
Posted by: mk at September 9, 2007 9:59 PM

On Siamese twins...

"In no way is this just "my valuation." Society is saying it's okay because the unborn are inside the body of a person. Of course some people, you included, disagree with this, but what I said is true - it makes a huge difference that the unborn are inside the body of a person, as opposed to not being there, i.e. born. With birth comes attribution of right to life, etc."

This was in response to the argument we were having with Enigma about the Siamese twins...

I then asked you if it would be different if the babies were carried on the outside like marsupials, and you replied the woman could cut the cord...

Tell me though, if the child was on the outside of the mothers body only attached by a cord, but would die if that cord was cut, you still would not consider the child a person?

Posted by: mk at September 9, 2007 10:27 PM

MK: It said brain STEM not brain...and our argument was whether or not a functioning thalamus, which is found in the brain stem, was proof of sentience.

MK, you asked if he was acting on reflex, and it said most of a chicken's reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem, so Mike was okay. Sounds to me like reflex was the deal.

.....

But since we are switching terms (and I'll hold you to that) to consciousness, the point is moot. Please define consciousness...

How about mental awareness of sensation - an alert cognitive state, as opposed to reflex and our friend autonomic response, courtesy of Laura?

There is "conscious being" and there is being "conscious of something." I think the unborn, late enough in gestation, may be conscious of things, but they don't have the self-awareness for real "conscious being," same as for newborns.

Are true brainwaves there? Alpha, beta, delta, theta....

Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 9, 2007 10:48 PM

"No, MK, it's not a valuation. It's a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it's not a valuation."

How is that NOT a valuation... You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the "valuation" that this was not a person...

Saying the fetus is not sentient to a point in gestation is not a valuation. There can be valuing sentience, of course, but to determine sentience or not is looking at the facts of physical reality, not deeming any worth, not having any perception in the moral realm.

Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 9, 2007 10:52 PM

MK: On Siamese twins...

"In no way is this just "my valuation." Society is saying it's okay because the unborn are inside the body of a person. Of course some people, you included, disagree with this, but what I said is true - it makes a huge difference that the unborn are inside the body of a person, as opposed to not being there, i.e. born. With birth comes attribution of right to life, etc."

This was in response to the argument we were having with Enigma about the Siamese twins...

I then asked you if it would be different if the babies were carried on the outside like marsupials, and you replied the woman could cut the cord...

Tell me though, if the child was on the outside of the mothers body only attached by a cord, but would die if that cord was cut, you still would not consider the child a person?

There's not enough information there for me to say. I don't see the cord or not, or dying or not if the cord was cut, as determining personhood. I've already said that I do see some personhood developing late in gestation, as the fetus becomes conscious, tending toward how most full-term, born babies are. That would be the same were the baby on the outside of the mother's body.

The question of right-to-life remains, here, and it's a different situation from most late-term pregnancies where delivery could end the pregnancy while preserving the baby's life.

If the cord being cut means the baby dies, and the baby has the consciousness I describe, then it's a tough question for me, since there is also the question of the woman's body being used against her will, possibly.

Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 9, 2007 11:04 PM

I just wish they'd said more about the women PP either killed with their quackery, or sent to their deaths elsewhere.

MK, yes, that was nice of Jeff to make that plug!

Wow, that was an excellent video! I am so glad that your friend posted it on youtube because I wasn't able to watch it the day it aired.

I thought Hannity (Foxnews) did a nice job with this.

I don't believe the majority of these people. They sound scripted. Especially the supposed 'previous abortion patient'. I don't buy it. And isn't it sad that PPs are so terrified of pro-lifers that they have to install bullet-proof glass? Oh, and aren't 'surgical recovery rooms' one of those things that you guys are always complaining about the clinics not having?

I don't think it's scripted. I participate in web sites where women talk about rude abortionists. I don't think that many women would lie.

Erin, you had a woman. You experience may have been different.

Quoted in "The Ex Abortionists: They Have Confronted Reality" Washington Post April 1, 1988 pg 21

"You have to become a bit schizophrenic. In one room, you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity in the fetal heart is not important, that she is going to have a fine, healthy baby. Then, in the next room you assure another woman, on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it is a good thing that the heartbeat is already irregular....she has nothing to worry about, she will NOT have a live baby...All of a sudden one noticed that at the time of the saline infusion there was a lot of activity in the uterus. That's not fluid currents. That's obviously the fetus being distressed by swallowing the concentrated salt solution and kicking violently and that's to all intents and purposes, the death trauma. ..somebody has to do it, and unfortunately we are the executioners in this instance..."

--abortionist Dr. Szenes

My above post would explain the behvior of Somg.

Puh-leeeeeeze

I've posted three different "tesimonies" from the Silent No More site that were chock-full of BS. I've got even BETTER BS abortion stories in my private collection.
These chicks lie ALL THE TIME, and their audience encourages it. (Notice how the majority of these stories involve some sort of force? Yeah, THAT happens...)

Ooooooooh!
This one even has GUNS AND VIOLENCE:

Forced Abortion

by Holly Faust

Seven years. It seems like an eternity. I was with someone who I adored although he always wasn't the nicest of guys. He was good looking and smart and when we met, I thought way out of my league. But I truly felt he loved me, and loved me for the real me, not who I was externally but my intelligence and my personality. We had a wonderful few years then things got bad he got abusive, mentally first, then physically and sexually. At first I thought that was the way it was supposed to be. After all my first sexual experience was about the same only to discover what happened then was date rape.

I was always told I would never have children due to severe endometriosis; imagine my surprise when I discovered I was pregnant. I was so excited and couldn't wait to tell him about it. I was about 6 or 7 weeks along. I told him and he seemed very upset. He told me there was no way he was going to have a child. Being totally against abortion, I told him no way. We seemed to get into more arguments, and the abuse seemed to get worse. I was determined to have this baby. I was about 12 weeks or so when the worst came. He told me if I didn't go get an abortion he would kill me. He actually held a gun to my head. We drove to some place in New Jersey.

To this day I still don't know why I agreed, I think it was fear for my life and my family more then anything. His father was a Doctor and this was the office of one of his friends. It was a weekend and it seemed like there wasn't another person on the planet. I was so scared. I begged and pleaded telling him I wouldn't tell anyone it was his. He just told me to shut up and stop being such a baby; this kind of thing happens everyday.

When we got in there I begged the Doctor not to do it. He seemed to ignore me. I cried and begged. I remember having something restraining my arms and that's it. I don't have any actual memories of the procedure itself. The next thing I remember is waking up home in my apartment. Things only got worse from there. I bled so much I thought I was going to die, and I cried so much I eventually became numb. The beatings got worse. Finally, I got the strength to leave. No one knew about what I went through. I just thought if I didn't talk about it, it didn't happen.

I met the man who I would marry a few months later. I had awful nightmares and I told him what they were about. Finally it became real. I had more nightmares and felt awful. After about a month of dating my current husband, I was shocked to discover I was pregnant again. It was only a year since my abortion. I was so scared to tell him. Then finally on the worst night of his life, his best friend's Mom had been killed, I told him I was pregnant. Nine months later we had our first of three children. My firstborn son was very ill when he was born. He ended up spending almost two months in the NICU and had surgery when he was three-weeks-old. I blamed myself; I thought God was punishing me.

We wanted to have more children, so we tried for months and nothing happened. I again thought I was being punished. A mass was found and removed from my right ovary, and I got pregnant again. I was horrified when the doctor gave me my due date, July 17, because my aborted baby was due on July 10th. The depression hit hard again. After my daughter was born on July 10th, I really took a nose dive.

I thought about suicide daily. I just couldn't handle the pain anymore. I thought my daughter being born on my aborted child's due date was a sick joke. I had no faith anymore. For two months I was in and out of psychiatric hospitals; no one knew what to do for me. I was put on med after med, but nothing helped. I attempted suicide three or four times. Then as quick as the feelings came they left. I was on enough psychotropics to kill a horse. Then again I found out I was pregnant and gave birth to my third child. She came a month early and had two dislocated hips. I discovered Rachel's Vineyard four months later while searching the web about abortion.

I looked up the site and found they had retreats. I called the contact person for the area where I grew up, and she told me the retreat was that weekend. I was shocked. I told her I’d have to let her know. She told me I could let her know up until the morning of the retreat. That night when my husband came home, the house was a nightmare. I told him I was going away. I went on the retreat and I discovered that I wasn't alone. I also discovered why for years I had heard two babies crying in my dreams. I was carrying twins. This was acknowledged a year later by my ex's father. I named them Grayson and Hope.

I had a difficult time again starting. Depression and thoughts of suicide or injuring myself continued for months. When my youngest child was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy, and a routine MRI showed that she had a rare malformation of her brain. I again went to blaming and hating myself. The one thing that got me through was remembering that one of the women in my retreat group said that God gives special children to special people because he knows they will take care of them. It gave me the strength to go on. Now my children, those living and those in heaven, give me the strength to go on. I now help on the Rachel’s Vineyard Retreats, and I speak out publicly about the pain and shame of abortion. When my children grow up, I hope they won’t even consider abortion to be a choice.

I don't see anything that is difficult to believe, Laura.

P.S. There have been documented cases of abortionists doing things just like this.

Here's one:
Forced Abortion Legal in America
Woman awakes in a closet after coerced abortion

FRONT ROYAL, Virginia, March 9, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com/pop.org) - The Population Research Institute has revealed that coerced abortion is a reality in America. A court ruled that a woman can be forced to submit to an abortion, if, in the opinion of the abortionist, the measure is necessary to "protect the health of the mother." The Jane Roe II vs. Aware Women Center for Choice, Inc. ruling was handed down in January.

The case arose when a young woman who entered an abortion clinic for an abortion changed her mind. The abortionist, William P. Egherman, who has committed over 10,000 abortions, instead of stopping the procedure, called in assistants to hold her down while he continued to dilate her cervix.

"My God, you're hurting me" the woman screamed. "You're killing me, I'll never be able to have babies... Stop!" Despite her pleas, Egherman went in with a forceps, an instrument in court he referred to as "the bear" and began prodding and pulling, and accidentally tore out a piece of her intestines. He advised the ambulance to go slow, without lights or siren, so as not to distress his other clients who were waiting for abortions. The hospital repaired the damage and removed the remains of a dead child.

The woman and her lawyer, former judge, Chris Sapp filed suit in the federal courts, arguing that the abortionist had violated the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE). FACE was passed to guarantee the right of women to receive reproductive health care. But if a woman had a right to enter a clinic to get an abortion, Sapp argued, she also has a right to leave a clinic in order to protect herself and her baby. The suit was lost, but an appeal is planned -- to the US Supreme Court if necessary.

According to Sapp, "This ruling does establish a precedent for forced abortion." An expectant mother receiving a routine gynecological exam, for example, could be held down and forcibly aborted. The abortionist would merely have to argue that the abortion was necessary to protect the mother's health or life, and this would not be a violation of the FACE Act.

PRI recently learned of another forced abortion in America. A 25-year-old Maryland woman, four months pregnant, changed her mind about having an abortion after being taken to the procedure room. She ran back to the clinic entrance where her boyfriend stopped her. "You have to get an abortion", he told her. "I've already paid for it". Three clinic workers and the abortionists surrounded the woman, sedated her by injection, and then took her back into the procedure room. After the forced abortion, she awoke in a closet.

Read the PRI report at: http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=215&r1=2.00&r2=2.00&r3=0.05&r4=0....
Oregon coverage:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/fro...
Massachusetts and Maine coverage:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/067/region/Gay_couples_from_...
New Jersey coverage:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--gaymarriage...
New York coverage:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--gaymarriage...

And also, one of the major reasons, even according to planned parenthood, that women abort, is due to pressure from the family. She was in an abusive relationship...why do you doubt her story?

Kidnap tied to forced abortion attempt
September 18, 2006

SALEM – A Maine couple faces felony charges after allegedly kidnapping their pregnant daughter and driving her across state lines in an attempt to force an abortion on her.

The North Yarmouth couple - Nicholas Kampf, 54, and Lola Kampf, 53 - were arrested by Salem police Friday after their daughter, Katelyn, called 911 saying she had been kidnapped, police said.
Nicholas Kampf, 54, and Lola Kampf, 53

Nicholas Kampf, 54, and Lola Kampf, 53

Sgt. Ron Peddle said the daughter persuaded her parents to untie her so she could use the restroom at a South Broadway shopping plaza.

"While she was in the ladies' room, her father went into the men's room" and she made her escape, dialing 911 on a cellphone, Peddle said. Authorities found Katelyn Kampf behind the shopping plaza, which is across the street from the police station.

Police allege that the parents had bound their daughter with rope around her feet and hands and forced her into their car Friday morning.

The daughter told investigators in Maine that her parents assaulted her after they found out she was pregnant, Cumberland County Sheriff Mark Dion said yesterday. She told police her parents tied her up and were planning to take her to New York state for an emergency abortion, he said.

"No matter what the case is, this is not a rational way to deal with a family issue," Dion said.

The Kampfs are scheduled to be arraigned on kidnapping charges today via live video feed in Salem District Court, said Salem Police Lt. Mike McGuire. They were being held yesterday on $100,000 bail each in the Rockingham County jail in Brentwood. If convicted, they face 7½ to 15 years in prison. They could face additional charges in Maine.

Police said they discovered the parents driving around the parking lot - apparently looking for their daughter - shortly after they found Katelyn Kampf. They said they uncovered rope, duct tape, scissors and a .22-caliber rifle when they searched their car. Nicholas Kampf was also allegedly carrying a .22-caliber clip in his pocket, the sheriff's department said.

Dion said Katelyn Kampf had been living with her boyfriend in Portland, Maine, and had attended Boston College. Dion said the daughter is traumatized by what has happened.

"I think it's traumatizing any time you're a victim of a crime and your parents are the perpetrators," he said.

She has been interviewed by police in New Hampshire and Maine. McGuire said it was unclear yesterday what she revealed during her interview in Salem. He said the parents allegedly stopped to use a Kmart restroom around 3:30 p.m. Friday.

Because the investigation involved two states, federal authorities may get involved. The oddness of the case makes the investigation more difficult, Dion said.

"It's a pretty dramatic response to her being pregnant, some would say outrageous response," Dion said.

He said it's unclear how the alleged kidnappers expected to get a doctor to perform an abortion against the young woman's will or why the parents acted as they did.

"There may be some other deeper issues," he said. "That's why we have to continue our investigation."

In light of the stage of the pregnancy and the different abortion laws in each state, the Kampfs believed that an abortion should be performed in New York, the sheriff said.

The Kampfs formerly owned the State Theater in Portland and are prominent businesspeople, Dion said. They live in an upscale neighborhood about eight miles from Portland. Dion said the only known contact they've had with police is when they called a few times to complain about speeders in their neighborhood.

This is one of my faves.
Beware! A nurse may come to your bed, spread your legs, and suck out your baby against your will!
There are only about a half-dozen factual and medical innaccuracies in this one. (Stupid people are poor liars.):
Cries of My Heart

By Roxanne Richard

I was in my early 20's when I went to the ER as I couldn't keep anything down. I told them I may be pregnant, and I was on the Pill. Before I knew it, I was admitted for observation, given x-rays, and had my stomach pumped for hours. Come morning, I was met with an angry doctor, who sat down, flipped open my chart, and pointed to the red inked circled around "positive" for pregnancy. My doctor strongly suggested that I have an abortion because of what they had done to me the night before. I CHOSE ABORTION.

I drove for three hours, registered at the clinic in Iowa City, and sat by a wild-eyed redhead who tried to reassure me by saying the procedure was simple and quick. It was her sixth abortion. Lying on the bed, the nurse spread my legs, and before I knew it there was an awful sucking noise. I realized the sound was coming out of me, so I started fighting for them to stop. They calmed me down saying "it was nothing,” and they “would be done shortly." The next thing I knew I was 10 miles from there, puking my guts out on the side of the road, and moaning how wrong it all was. I slept on the way home and awoke to a cold beer and drugs before my pool league started.

I'm here to share how my choice to have an ABORTION affected my life each and every day for over 25 years. I suffered three miscarriages before I finally had my son Jesse, who is now 20 years old. I couldn't put my finger on it, but there was ALWAYS something missing in my life. I was a control freak, a drug addict, and an angry, bitter female, who couldn't look at herself in the mirror. Plagued with constant, self-destructive thoughts, I forgot how it felt to hold my head high. I told myself I was selfish, condemned, and unlovable to anyone, ESPECIALLY myself. My idea of a relationship was a one night stand or being with the guy who had the most drugs at the time. I went to different doctors for different prescriptions month after month, year after year. I was always in a hurry, chasing what I couldn't understand or define.

I praise GOD for using Silent No More Awareness and Rachel’s Vineyard Abortion Recovery Retreats to touch me and heal places I never knew were broken.

My babies have a name; I will never be the same.

Life is not a game, not even for a minute.

Jesus is my lifeline, and I'll NEVER forget it.

More Testimonies

I'm so glad that girl got away from her goofy parents.

I don't believe Erin's story about her abortion. Her story seems so scripted to me. She always seems like she is just saying exactly what PP would want her to say. Just because she states she had a "good" experience, she wants us to all generalize and assume that everyone's story is like hers. I think she is just a big fat liar.

How does that make you feel Erin???

Everytime anyone from the pro-life side whether it be a former abortionist as in the Hannity clip or an abortion patient or statistics you don't believe it. Why do you question these women??

And Laura,
The number is 1-800-GET-HELP

You are pathetic for thinking these "chicks" are somehow lying. What is their motive???
What proof do you have that they are lying??

Why do you have a personal collection of stories from these "chicks". That's scary. Why don't you support them in their grief instead of calling them liars??

They may not have all of the medical facts correct, but that is obviously because they are not medical professionals who perform abortions for a living. They are women who tell their story as they know it from the side of a patient.

The real fraud here is PP who blatently lied on documents to build their abortuary. Where is your condemnation of them??

I personally feel that it's almost criminal to spread fear into the hearts of women who want abortions but are scared out of getting them by stories like these. Women who can end up actually killing the babies they give birth to.

Bethany: SALEM – A Maine couple faces felony charges after allegedly kidnapping their pregnant daughter and driving her across state lines in an attempt to force an abortion on her.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That story has nothing to do with abortion, and everything to do with PSYCHOPARENTS! (When I listen to my friends' stories, I thank the fates for my annoying but grounded, functional parents...)
Did they really believe that they were going to *drag their bound daughter into a clinic and nobody was going to notice? That she wasn't going to say something once the staff got her alone?

* In my head I can see the parents carrying her in gamebearer-style - you know - with her hands bound together, feet bound together, and a post run through her limbs and bourne on her parent's shoulders.

Most police are good therefore all who claim brutality are lying.

Most clergy are good therefore all who claim abuse are lying.

Most doctors are good therefore all who claim malpractice are lying.

I think such arguments are inherently fallacious.

That story has nothing to do with abortion, and everything to do with PSYCHOPARENTS!

Laura, pay attention. It has everything to do with responding to your post which sarcastically said:

"(Notice how the majority of these stories involve some sort of force? Yeah, THAT happens...)"

Yeah, that happens.

It has everything to do with abortion. The baby was going to be biracial, so the parents wanted her to abort! The girl never made a claim about them tying her up on any other occasion. Perhaps in the parent's goofy minds, the abortion clinic WOULD have taken her in kicking ad screaming.

I personally feel that it's almost criminal to spread fear into the hearts of women who want abortions but are scared out of getting them by stories like these. Women who can end up actually killing the babies they give birth to.

Posted by: Erin at September 10, 2007 4:55 PM

Erin,
I personally feel it's criminal to spread lies into the hearts of women who trust these "quacks"......it's just a blob, it's just like getting your tooth pulled, there is no such thing as PAS, it won't affect your fertility. Women can acutally wind up committing suicide because of their decisions to abort.
The former abortion worker on this tape ADMITTED they try to get teens to abort multiple times so that abortion will be their birth control method.
Why do you not believe her?

Go to this site "The Real Choice" these are women who have died in America's abortion clinics! These are not the back ally days. These are the front ally days. Included is the "Cemetery of Choice"......there are a few women who killed themselves shortly after expressing their post abortive pain to loved ones.

Suicide Risk Greater After Abortion

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Women who have an abortion are more likely than other women to commit suicide, a new study suggests.

On average, about 15% of deaths that occur in women of childbearing age are due to suicide -- a rate equal to 11 deaths per 100,000 women, according to the study of Finnish death certificates published in the current issue of the British Medical Journal. But, researchers found that the suicide rate for women who gave birth was only 6 per 100,000 women, while the rate after miscarriage was 18 per 100,000, and the rate after abortion was 35 per 100,000 women.

"This suggests that childbearing prevents suicide, or that women capable of giving birth are not at high risk for suicide," according to lead study author Mika Gissler, a researcher at the National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health in Helsinki, Finland. "The only exception might be teenage mothers, whose suicide rate associated with birth was three times the general rate in this age group."

"The risk associated with birth was higher among teenagers, and that associated with abortion was increased in all age groups," he said.

In the study, Gissler and colleagues looked at death certificates for 9,192 women aged 15 to 49 and matched them to detailed medical birth registers and abortion registers. Overall, 73 -- or 5% -- of deaths were associated with pregnancy or child birth in the previous year.

"In total, 30 suicides were committed after women gave birth (42%), 29 after an abortion (40%), and 14 after a miscarriage (19%)," Gissler said.

Depression after an abortion may contribute to the suicide risk, according to the report. "Another explanation for the higher suicide rate after an abortion could be low social class, low social support and previous life events, or that abortion is chosen by women who are at higher risk for suicide because of other reasons," Gissler wrote.

"Women who had committed suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy," he said.

It is impossible to determine from the study why women may be more likely to kill themselves after an abortion.

"Our data clearly show, however, that women who have experienced an abortion have an increased risk of suicide, which should be taken into account in the prevention of such deaths," Gissler concluded.

SOURCE: British Medical Journal (1996;313:3-12)

The former abortion worker on this tape ADMITTED they try to get teens to abort multiple times so that abortion will be their birth control method.
Why do you not believe her?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, because 3% of Planned Parenthood's business is abortion services, while about 70% of their business is providing contraception.
The first time I went to a Planned Parenthood for a cheap gyn checkup I walked out the door with 400 condoms. I had no boyfriend at the time. I think they threw tham at me...

"Women who can end up actually killing the babies they give birth to."

Posted by: Erin at September 10, 2007 4:55 PM

Or actually killing the babies they DIDN'T give birth to, to spin it the other way.

Erin: Were you told when your due date would have been had you continued the pregnancy?

Laura,
Again. Play ignorant. It has been stated over and over and over and over that abortion is their cash cow. Why don't you believe the woman on the tape??

Carder- that would be a fetus, not a baby. And no, I wasn't. Didn't really care, either, to be honest.

And either way, very pregnant me would not have been able to land the lead role I just did at college. I would like to see me try and swing dance with a fetus in me.

Laura,
Again. Play ignorant. It has been stated over and over and over and over that abortion is their cash cow. Why don't you believe the woman on the tape??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because donations and state and federal subsidies are Planned Parenthood's greatest source of revenue. That's because we're all SO PLEASED by the job they do:

"Planned Parenthood's total income for 2002-2003 was $766.6 million.

Planned Parenthood's sources of revenue are worth noting. From clinic operations, Planned Parenthood brought in $288.2 million, and pro-abortion donors contributed over $228 million. Taxpayers at the state and federal levels are responsible for $254.4 million of Planned Parenthood revenue."

"No, MK, it's not a valuation. It's a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it's not a valuation."

MK: How is that NOT a valuation... You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the "valuation" that this was not a person...

Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm.

Doug

Erin, I ended up a prolifer because of what my babysitter told me -- privately, not as part of some Silent No More campaign or prolife rally -- about the abortion her mother forced her to have and how PP went along with it.

You may live in some sort of Utopia where abortionists are saintly and no woman ever submits to an abortion she doesn't feel happy about. Most of us live in the real world, where the women walking into those places are crying and feeling trapped.

Valuation is deeming worth. Seeing if sentience is there or not is just trying to determine physical reality, not saying any of the good/bad/right/wrong of the moral realm.

It is YOUR VALUATION that if the physical reality is a certain way, then people don't deserve the "absolute" right to life. That is YOUR VALUATION.
OUR valuation is different, OUR valuation says a human has worth and value regardless of stage of development.
How are you not getting this?

How can you sit there and tell us that all of our deductions concerning the physical reality of the unborn are valuations, but then to claim that yours are not?

Laura -

"Oh, because 3% of Planned Parenthood's business is abortion services, while about 70% of their business is providing contraception."

I've explained this before, but it is worth a second explaination:

There total service for the 2005 report was 10,112,642

However they only had 3,051,144

Now - Most abortion patients HAVE to have a pregnancy test. Most go home with some sort of birth control. Most come back for a PAP.

You see, the abortion patients are the ones that have the most multiple services.

Yes - There services are 3% abortion, however up to 20% - 30% of the clients can be abortion patients. Because of medical privacy they do not have to provide an itemization of clients that have duplicate services.

It has been estimated - This is from a biased source - I am checking to see if they obtained the information correctly - that over 50% of their clients are previous abortion patients. When I have the information on this, I will post it.

Bethany -

don't you just love how the group that says they are for womens rights and that they care about women are the ones that turn their backs when the woman says something they disagree with?

It's like hypnosis or something. Imagine a watch being rocked back and forth in front of you with some deep voice saying "You will enjoy your abortion. There is nothing better than abortion. Anyone who regrets abortion are liars. Anyone who changes their minds at the last minute are hysterical. It is impossible for a woman to regret this decision or have a bad experience."

Thank you Valerie!

So far, no acutal question I have asked the PCers on this site has been answered directly.
Again, all smoke and mirrors.

Nice Erin. You ended a life your created for your chance to swing dance in a starring role in a play that no one will remember next semester. Bravo. How incredibly selfish.

Nice Erin. You ended a life your created for your chance to swing dance in a starring role in a play that no one will remember next semester. Bravo. How incredibly selfish.

You took the words right out of my mouth...but from Erin's point of view, this was what was good for her and the idea of giving up 7 months of her life to save someone elses, simply does not compute.
This idea is so foreign to me, that I can't quite grasp it. That a child died so Erin could dance...and to describe it as "I would like to see me try and swing dance with a fetus in me", just makes me think that Erin is wrestling with more than she lets on.

We've have already shown that fetus and baby are synonymous, but have been told that the dictionary is not a reliable source...the lengths that the pro-choice side will go to, to avoid the truth is astounding.

Siamese twins can't separate because they have always been united?

A fetus is not a baby?

Abortion is only 3 per cent of their services?

Nobody kills babies past viablility?

Joe Scheidler was convicted of violent crimes?

Planned Parenthood doesn't create the problem so that it can then fix it?

Babies are never born alive?

There is no such thing as PAS?

On and on and on...

No matter how much evidence is given to the contrary, they deny, deny, deny...

So sad.

don't you just love how the group that says they are for womens rights and that they care about women are the ones that turn their backs when the woman says something they disagree with?
It's like hypnosis or something. Imagine a watch being rocked back and forth in front of you with some deep voice saying "You will enjoy your abortion. There is nothing better than abortion. Anyone who regrets abortion are liars. Anyone who changes their minds at the last minute are hysterical. It is impossible for a woman to regret this decision or have a bad experience."

Valerie, no kidding! It's amazing how quickly these people turn their back on the women they supposedly support when the women show any shred of actual emotion.

And either way, very pregnant me would not have been able to land the lead role I just did at college. I would like to see me try and swing dance with a fetus in me.

I was very flexible and very active when I was pregnant, especially in the last trimester, Erin. As much as you might hate to hear it, you're wrong. Unless there was something medically wrong with you, and if you are a generally healthy person, you should not have any problems dancing while pregnant. Remember that video Jill posted of the pregnant woman belly dancing?

Erin, really... What are you trying to do here, trying to hurt us more? Trying to stab us in the heart, twisting the knife, by showing us how heartless you are? You tell us you named your baby Lileth, then you murdered your baby girl. You talk about how happy it made you, so that you could do a stupid dance that you could have easily done pregnant. Even if you couldn't, it's a lame excuse to kill a child, born or unborn. The incredible selfishness of it all just overwhelms me.

Good Morning Valerie and MK!
Great responses. These women are indoctrinated into a line of thinking where they are not allowed to question or think outside of the warped, sad, little tiny box they live in. Their claim to fame is always that pro-lifers don't care about women. PCers have proven over and over and over again that they are in fact the side that does not care about women. They are willing to throw women under the bus so they can keep their right to abort at will for their own selfish convenience. It just makes it all the more diguisting. If they cared so much about women they would all be running to the sides of women who had terrible experiences and help them, instead these women are called liars.

Morning Bethany!

Good morning Sandy!

Erin, these pregnant women look like dancing is such a struggle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ezd6M4ZuHz4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPYx-dVh2g0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0bnsYEf9s&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW-TNliIubY&mode=related&search=

There's tons more on youtube.

Oh look...it's a pregnant dance teacher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT8d8C6dKZk&mode=related&search=

Good morning all. You go girls!!..to the dancing preggos.

"And either way, very pregnant ME would not have been able to land the lead role I just did at college. I would like to see ME try and swing dance with a fetus in ME."

It's all about...
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

Remember that post that His Man posts a lot. Abortion has turned women against their children. There's your proof.

Another thing. I worked through all 3 of my pregnancies.

Asesome videos Bethany!!

Sorry, Awesome videos Bethany!

***

"However they only had 3,051,144"

oops...just noticed this. It is 3,051,144 Clients.

Well, Laura seems to think that every post abortive woman who expresses any type of sorrow after abortion, is just plain nutty. However, Laura also says that she's never had an abortion, herself. So, how could you know? I've never had kidney stones, but people tell me they hurt like hell. Why would I disbelieve them. There is something strange about a woman who's NEVER aborted, preaching about the lack of emotion women should show after abortion.

What should I say to the person who tells me that their migraine headaches are terribly painful? ............you're crazy?

Heather,
Great points. Laura acts like she is such an expert on the subject. Are all of these PAS groups formed because women decided to get together and lie about their experiences?

I think anyone who is pro-choice should spend a year in an abortion clinic and witness first second and third tri-mester abortions so they can really get some experience on the issue. They are all big talkers. It is one thing to be so noble to escort women into clinics or hold up their crazy signs, it would be quite another to work in a clinic and really understand what they are supporting.

They should then go to a Rachel's Vineyard retreat and listen and understand what post abortive women feel like.

You guys aren't really getting it. The kind of life that I am enjoying now would not be possible if I were 8 months pregnant at this point. I chose to continue along the path that I wanted. If someone else chooses to keep their fetus to term, that's fine too.

I don't care right now anyway. My cervix hurts. Biopsies blow. I'm going to bed.

We do get it Erin. What you did was selfish. You could have been enjoying your eigth month of pregnancy and brining a baby into the world soon. There is no greater gift than that. Did you really name your baby?? Why did you do that if you are so certain it was only a blob of nothing. I am confused.

Fetus to term???
My friend is having a baby. I guess I will send out Fetus shower invites. Why is it that with my two healthy pregnancies all of the medical professionals asked me when my baby was due, or tell me through ultrasounds that the baby was fine and through the delivery process that my baby was doing just fine, or my baby was in distress or my baby was moving down the birth canal. At what point Erin do you consider the unborn a baby???

You are wrong if you think that getting the star role in a play (that no one will remember next semester) even compares to the joy that a new life would bring to you and your family or someone else and their family who would be greatful to adopt a baby.

Y

Erin -

Did I miss something? "My cervix hurts. Biopsies blow. I'm going to bed."

I'm not on here on a regular basis anymore (trying hard to change that!) and can't read everything.

Are you okay?

"Fetus to term???"

Sandy, they use the term "fetus" to dehumanize the unborn baby. It makes it easier to kill.

Sandy- at this point in my life, my greatest joy is continuing my education, working with fun people at my job, and being on stage. A kid isn't what I wanted right now and therefore I decided not to let a fetus inhabit my body until I gave birth.

Look, I'm going to take a break, because I'm feeling rather tempermental. Questions like this usually don't bother me, so feel free to ask me at some future junction.

Valerie- I'm in the middle of a screening process for cervical cancer. Tests keep going screwy for some reason and they are getting inconclusive results. The colposcopy and biopsy I had today should be the last test I need but I'm stressed out and cramping pretty badly.

Talk to you guys tomorrow.

Erin -

My friend just went through this. She ended up having cancer, but they did some sort of "freezing" (I can't remember the right word) done and everything seems to be okay now.

Let us know how everything goes...

You have my e-mail (in the moderator section.) If you need anything........

;-)

Erin,
I hope the test results are good ones for you. I'm sorry to hear about the need for these tests :-(

Now, from one Music Theatre major to another (I know you're not but you're heavily involved so I'll just refer to you as a fellow Friend of the Theatre)...

At the conservatory I attended, I personally knew five gals in both the theatre and Opera departments who had abortions. Among their reasons for aborting, the standard "it would interfere with my education/career" was on their list. I can assure you with utmost certainty that NOT ONE of those ladies have hit the Hollywood/Broadway/Metropolitan Opera Big Time, and at this point it's highly doubtful that they ever will.

As with every show, the lights go out and it's time to take down the set. The point? Vanity, fame, self-glory, they are all so fleeting.

Of the five post-abortive gals, I know three were extremely distraught about their experiences when given the opportunity to express themselves. A career in the spotlight meant more than a precious infant they could have gazed upon or gifted to another couple. I wish I could ask them, "So, how successful is your performing arts career now??"

"Didn't really care, either, to be honest."

Please save those words on paper, Erin. Some day you might look back and read them and wonder. I read them now, shake my head, and wonder...

The reason I asked about the due date was because I vaguely remember MK alluding to March. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

At the conservatory I attended, I personally knew five gals in both the theatre and Opera departments who had abortions. Among their reasons for aborting, the standard "it would interfere with my education/career" was on their list. I can assure you with utmost certainty that NOT ONE of those ladies have hit the Hollywood/Broadway/Metropolitan Opera Big Time, and at this point it's highly doubtful that they ever will.

As with every show, the lights go out and it's time to take down the set. The point? Vanity, fame, self-glory, they are all so fleeting.

Of the five post-abortive gals, I know three were extremely distraught about their experiences when given the opportunity to express themselves. A career in the spotlight meant more than a precious infant they could have gazed upon or gifted to another couple. I wish I could ask them, "So, how successful is your performing arts career now??"

Carder, sure, but you don't need them to give up on their dreams and desires, regardless of what success they later have. It's not up to you, any more than your choices are up to them.

Douug

Doug,

Carder, sure, but you don't need them to give up on their dreams and desires, regardless of what success they later have. It's not up to you, any more than your choices are up to them.

The difference between us is that you are taking the side of a group of people that could have prevented the tragedy to begin with, by refraining from performing the action that leads to pregnancy, and the group that has a voice.

We, on the other hand, are taking up the cause of the group of people that are in no way culpable, for the circumstances that they find themselves in. Nor do they have a voice.

It's like blaming the rape victim for the rape.

And while you say we are trying to subvert the will of women to our own wills as the slave owners did to the slaves, I would say that you are submitting the unborn to the same bondage, even to the point of ending their lives.

If you take away the right to life, then all other rights become void of meaning. They become valueless. While other places have removed the right to wear what they want, watch what they want and say what they want, without the right to live, what does that matter?

moved the above comment to the Britney post...