A good conversation was launched from the September 18 post, "Hydration, nutrition, and the persistent vegetative state," and I have been asked to bring it forward to the home page. I'm going to pull a few a few thought provoking comments to continue the discussion....

Erin: [I]f my family didn't let me die, I'd be pretty ticked.... [I]f someone asks to be taken off of life-support, or says in their living will that they do not wish to be kept alive by artificial means, should their request be granted?... Personally, if I had no mental capacity, if I could not move, think, or feel... I would consider that death.

Jacqueline: My doctoral study is on advanced directives.... MK is right - Living Wills are a scientificly-proven disaster. Even if you don't have a moral opposition to them, they fail to accomplish their intended purpose. Doctors don't have to follow them, they are misinterpretted or ignored 99% of the time, they can never predict the details of the situation they speak of, they can be used to condemn you when new, alternative treatments are available - and they tie the hands of your family that will have full knowledge of the situation and your options. Your family might want to consider a new therapy - only they are unable to because you wrote some ambiguous death wish. Furthermore, treatment costs money that states and insurance companies don't want to pay. They'd sooner enforce the Living Will than let your family attempt to help you....

Erin: Eesh. This topic gives me the heebie jeebies. In my mind, being a vegetable is worse than death, which is probably why this topic weirds me out.

Jacqueline: Well, isn't that bigotted. You aren't OWED your brain function and you're not better than someone who doesn't have the same cognitive abilities. You are no better than they are. When people spout this shallow drivel, I hear a child screaming, "If I can't have my pony, I'll just DIE."

Furthermore, no human being is ever a VEGETABLE. Human beings are always human beings. Disabled human beings are human beings. Brain injured human beings are human beings. Premature human beings are human beings. Elderly human beings are human beings. Cognitively disabled human beings are human beings. Ill human beings are human beings. Even dead (heart ceases to beat, turns cold) human beings remain human beings.

Calling anyone a vegetable is an offense to mankind. It offends me more than anything else. It makes me want to kick some a**....

Brother Francis: Erin, I notice here that you are shifting the definition of what death is. Death has long been (and at least for now, still is) considered by the medical profession and by popular consensus to be equated with death of the body. If the body is alive, the person is alive, and vice-versa. However, if the definition of death were shifted to something like not being able to move, think, or feel, a Pandora's box with potential for great evil would be opened....

According to a new definition of death, where people could not "move, think, or feel," this would produce the very odd situation where significant numbers of people in hospitals would be dead and then return to life. And this would be the course which certain serious conditions normally take. The man I described above would have been dead in your account. And so, that would mean nurses and doctors were skillfully caring for a "dead" man for about three days. What would have happened if someone had deliberately ended his bodily life during this time of medically deliberate suspension of consciousness? Could you prosecute someone for killing a dead man?

Jess: If I was in a persistent vegetated state I would not want to be kept alive by any means. Then my family and friends could use their time, money and energy for something that can appreciate it. Like maybe helping an underprivileged child.

But no one really wants to be a martyr anymore....

Jacqueline: First of all, brain death is not death. That false definition of death was conveniently invented when doctors found ways to transplant organs and needed organs to transplant. You can not take an organ from a dead body, so the lesser, weaker, unworthy folks that couldn't defend themselves (i.e. the comatose, the PVS) were sacrificed for the "greater good" of saving better, communicative, ambulatory, worthy people. This is murder. This is bigotry. Essentially we're saying that people with lesser functioning are are lesser than those without and should sacrifice themselves for those "better" people to continue to live their "better" lives....

Brother Francis: The point someone made above about living wills not really doing much to put control in the patient's hands is very true. The problem is the interpretation of the living will. And if the patient has not designated a particular person of his own choice (via a health care proxy/durable power of attorney), guess who gets to interpret what the living will means?--the doctors and the hospital administration. And they do not necessarily have to listen to anyone else, including family and friends of the patient.

Jacqueline:: I'm not going down this path- You people redefine life and death to suit yourselves. It's not life if you want to abort it. It's not life when you want to euthanize it. You have no moral compass- so how can I begin to appeal to your non-functioning consciences?...

I think I need to retire from this conversation. I love Terri and know her family. Listening to ignorant (and morally bankrupt) people defend her 13-day murder is too much for me.

In conclusion, you pro-aborts will attack anyone defenseless if it suits you- the unborn, the elderly, the ill, the disabled. Stop being such cowards! Pick on someone with a fighting chance. Like me, for example. I'd like to see you try that suction machine, currette, starvation crap with me.

Why is it that these people always target the weakest and most helpless of all? Cowards.

Found this online, when I was looking up more information about Kate Adamson:

Kate Adamson appeared on the Fox News Channel program "The O'Reilly Factor" to relate that she was diagnosed as being in a vegetative state and, like Terri Schiavo, her feeding tube was removed, only to be reinserted after eight days after her lawyer-husband threatened to sue the hospital if they did not reinsert it. Adamson also refuted the testimony of Terri's husband Michael Schiavo who suggested that PVS patients do not feel the pain of starvation.

Host Bill O'Reilly asked Adamson, "So you were feeling pain when they removed your tube?" She responded, "Yes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. To say that -- especially when Michael [Schiavo] on national TV had mentioned last week that it's a pretty painless thing to have the feeding tube removed. It is the exact opposite. It was sheer torture, Bill."

If only Terri Schiavo's husband had cared about her, like Kate's husband cared about her. Terri could have come out of her state and lived to tell about it like Kate did.

http://katesjourney.com/articles.html

The doctors said she was PVS too.

Of course, if Terri Schiavo's husband had cared about her, he wouldn't have put her in that state to begin with.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Basing your moral standards on science is a fools path. Yesterdays science is fodder for horror novels. Today's science is tomorrows joke. Tomorrows science is the punch line.

I'm not bashing science, and I recognize the need to build on previous findings. I'm just saying that to base your moral standards on something so changeable is to basically have no moral standard at all.

Some have claimed that the unborn aren't sentient so they are not persons. Yet we have posted new evidence, some which came out just this week, to show that we now believe the unborn are far more aware than we ever thought. This evidence was completely unbiased as it was research for autism and had nothing to do with prolife/prochoice.

In this case, morality was based on lack of scientific evidence. Does new scientific evidence mean new moral standards? If so, then how moral, were the morals before the new evidence.

Human life is sacred. That is not scientific fact. That is just a necessary belief in order to have a civilized and ordered society. Once human life stops being sacred, the next life that becomes expendable could be yours...

Amen, MK!

Thank You Bobby.

Would you mind sending me a "God Love you Mary Kay"?
I could use a boost this morning!

I want a 'God love you' too, it always makes my day.

Well, God love you, Mary Kay! I'll offer up prayers for you as well.

And God love you, your husband, and three beautiful children, Bethany.

Aww thank you, Bobby!! :)

Hey Jacqueline.

"First of all, brain death is not death."

I don't know too much about this stuff, but there is this short article by one of my heroes Father Tad Pacholczyk where he seems to say that brain death is in fact death. I may not be understanding what he or you is saying, but if you get a chance, could you read it and let me know if you agree with it or how you understand things? Like I said, I know nearly nothing about this stuff, so anything you can share is appreciated. God love you, Jacqueline.

Thank you Bobby and God Love you too!

Father Tad is a great man, and I know that I am no one to oppose him, yet, I have had many disagreements in bio-ethics because he doesn't look politically about the implications of isolated incidents. Most notably, he sided with a hospital's attempt to deny care to a sick baby boy (against the mothers' wishes) citing that removal of care was morally acceptable in that boys' particular case. What he forgot was that even in cases where the Church agrees that removal of care is moral, the catechism clearly states that this decision belongs to the FAMILY, not a hospital with vested economic interests. In fact, his support of removing care from Emilio Gonzales was used to thwart a Futile Care reform effort, and because of that, Texans still live in a state where hospitals can deny you food/water/antibiotics/ad nausuem if you cost too much money or "your life just isn't worth living." His research is on bioethics and mine is on euthanasia policy. One is precise and the other is holistic.

cont.

Now, I read Father Tad's article and I disagree completely. Living people are not corpses. If they weren't alive, it wouldn't be necessary to kill them, and killing a living person to procure their organs is morally unacceptable. I am waiting for the Church to make this declaration (like I am waiting for the pro-life movement to oppose egg donation- certain things haven't quite hit our radar).

Case in point: An ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancies can be treated by killing the baby directly and preserving the fallopian tube (for the sake of fertility). Ectopic pregnancies can also be treated by removing the whole tube. The latter is the only morally acceptable answer- because we can not go in and purposefully destroy the baby. This is Catholic teaching. It's 100% correct.

Likewise, even "brain dead" people can not be purposefully destroyed by vivisection. To remove machines and let natural death occur is one thing. To slice open and individual and kill them by removing their heart and lungs is quite another. That is not a natural death. Killing a "brain dead" person is not less reprehensible than killing a terminally ill person than killing a healthy person. We are never allowed to intentionally kill innocent human life.

Like the Church values fertility but can not waiver in the case of ectopic pregnancies to allow the intentional destruction of a child, the Church values of mercy and saving lives through organ donation can not waiver to allow the intentional destruction of a human being.

And I must ask Fr. Tad, why the hurry? If it's only morally acceptable to remove care from truly "brain dead" individuals, and those individuals will die of natural causes in a relatively short period of time anyway, why the hurry to kill them? Why not let nature take it's course? Like I tell pro-aborts and assisted suicide propenents that want to destroy terminally ill human beings, why the hurry to kill them when they are dying prematurely as is? Does their imminent death gives us the license to kill them? I emphatically say NO. Once again, we are never allowed to intentionally kill innocent human life.

I forgot- GOD LOVE YOU, BOBBY! :)

Jacque said: "(like I am waiting for the pro-life movement to oppose egg donation- certain things haven't quite hit our radar)"

Pro-lifers I know oppose it. Concerned Women for America opposes it as exploitive toward women. Do you not think mainline pro-life orgs have taken a stand against it? Maybe they haven't? Maybe they're neutral, like they are on contraception?

Seems like wrongful imprisonment.

If you believe that there is consciousness there, then in what way could that person possible feel anything other than sorrow? They live in a prison where they cannot speak, move, or think. It must be torture.

Do you not think mainline pro-life orgs have taken a stand against it?

Pro-lifers I know are oblivious to it. I've never heard of a pro-life group making any mention of it until now. CWA- I didn't know that they condemned it! Go them! But my reasons for opposing it go beyound exploitation. I oppose it because it creates and kills children (like IVF), which is why I think pro-lifers shoudl oppose it. I'm surprised Feminists for Life hasn't said anything about it.

I can't wait to hear the court decision today. I'm praying!

If you believe that there is consciousness there, then in what way could that person possible feel anything other than sorrow? They live in a prison where they cannot speak, move, or think. It must be torture.

I'm not implying that there is consciousness there. What I'm saying is that consciousness is completely irrelevant to someone being allowed to live. Conscious or unconscious, male or female, deaf or hearing, sleeping or waking, young or old- humans are humans regardless of their condition. All deserve to live their natural lives.

Hi Jacqueline. Thanks for all the info. Lots for me to think about...

"...pro-life movement to oppose egg donation"

Have you seen http://handsoffourovaries.com/ ? It has both pro-life and pro-choice supporters. There are sooooo many problems with egg donation, and I think if we all really learn the facts, opposing egg donation is something most of us should be able to get behind. God love you.

There is a difference between killing someone and allowing them to die. If a family sees a brain dead person and removes life support, then it will lead them to irreversable cardiac and pulmonary function. But ultimately the cause of death is the cause of the brain death. The cause of death is not the direct action of the person.

"Why is it that these people always target the weakest and most helpless of all? Cowards."

How are we targeting them? Did I put anyone in a coma or vegetated state ever? Why should we be forced to go out of our way to keep someone alive when we know they are suffering without any hope?

I feel that a person's living will should be honored. I will be extremely upset if mine isn't. I'm sorry, but this is how I feel on this issue. My father battled cancer. He wanted to die at home in bed. We allowed him to do so.

I should also add that my dad was in the hospice program.

How are we targeting them? Did I put anyone in a coma or vegetated state ever? Why should we be forced to go out of our way to keep someone alive when we know they are suffering without any hope?

"You" target them because they have no voice. No way of telling you what they want. Just like the unborn children. You decide that you can play God and decide for them that they want death, rather than giving them the benefit of life, when in fact they really may want to live.

That is how "you" (as a collective whole) target them.

It wasn't "going out of the way" to keep Terri alive. Her family was MORE than willing to take care of her (giving her the BASIC needs EVERY human needs to survive) for the rest of her natural life, no matter what the cost.

And they weren't keeping her alive by artificial means either. She was perfectly healthy, and only needed food and water to survive.

There is a difference between killing someone and allowing them to die. If a family sees a brain dead person and removes life support, then it will lead them to irreversable cardiac and pulmonary function. But ultimately the cause of death is the cause of the brain death. The cause of death is not the direct action of the person.

If I took food and water away from my children for 13 days till they died, would I be actively killing them or just "letting them die"?

Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned and some 2,000 other Christians suffered at the time of Stephen's persecution, c. 35 A.D.
James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
Mark was beaten to death.
Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
Saint Jude was crucified.
Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.
(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).
Ignatius of Antioch in 107 A.D.
Polycarp of Smyrna, probably around 160 A.D.
Justin Martyr of Palestine in 168 A.D.
The Martyrs of Scili (in North Africa, about 180 A.D.) The Passio Sanctorum Scilitanorum is regarded as the oldest Christian text in the Latin language.
Perpetua and Felicity of Carthage in 202 A.D.
Origen of Alexandria, about 250 A.D.
Saint Januarius of Naples, Italy in 305 A.D
Saint Philomena of Corfu, Greece (died in Rome) about 305 A.D
Ludmila of Bohemia, 921
King Edward the Martyr, 979
Stanislaus of Szczepanów, 1079
Thomas Becket, 1170
John Huss (Jan Huss), 1415
Jerome of Prague, 1416
Joan of Arc (Jeanne d'Arc), 1431
Diego Botello, Spanish missionary in the Caribbean, 1516
Fernando Salzedo, Spanish missionary in the Caribbean, 1516
Jan de Bakker, 1525
Felix Manz, 1527
Patrick Hamilton, 1528
George Blaurock, 1529
Thomas More, 1535
John Fisher, 1535
William Tyndale, 1536
Carthusian Martyrs
Margaret Pole, 1541
Juan de la Cruz, Spanish missionary to New Mexico, 1542
Luis de Escalona, Spanish missionary to New Mexico, 1542
Juan de Padilla, Spanish missionary to New Mexico, 1542
George Wishart, 1546
Hugh Latimer, 1555
Nicholas Ridley , 1555
Rowland Taylor, 1555
John Hooper, 1555
John Rogers (religious), 1555
William Hunter (Protestant martyr), 1555
Lawrence Saunders, 1555
Thomas Cranmer (Protestant martyr), 1556
Dirk Willems, 1569
Margaret Ball, 1584
Kakure Kirishitan
Francis Taylor, 1621
Magdalene of Nagasaki 1634
Canadian Martyrs, North American Martyrs, 1642 - 1649
Francis Ferdinand de Capillas (Dominican missionary to China), 1648
Feodosia Morozova (Old Believer), 1675
Oliver Plunkett, 1681
Constantin Brâncoveanu, 1714
Lorenzo Carranco, Spanish missionary to Baja California, 1734
Nicolás Tamarál, Spanish missionary to Baja California, 1734
Vicente Liem de la Paz (Tonkinese Dominican), 1773
Luís Jayme, Spanish missionary to Alta California, 1775
Cosmas of Aetolia, 1779
Francisco Garcés, Spanish missionary to Alta California, 1781
Martyrs of Compiegne, 1794
Andrés Quintana, Spanish missionary to Alta California, 1812
Chinese Martyrs (various Christian denominations), 19th and 20th centuries
Andrew Dung-Lac (Vietnamese Catholic), 1839
Korean Martyrs 1839, 1846, 1866
Peter Chanel (Catholic priest), 1841
Andrew Kim Taegon, 1846
Martyrs of Uganda, 1885-1887
Maria Goretti (virgin martyr), 1902
Grand Duchess Elizabeth Fyodorovna, 1918
Nun Barbara (Yakovleva), 1918
Saints of the Cristero War 1926-1927
Miguel Pro, 1927
Toribio Romo González, 1928
José Sánchez del Río 1928
Innocencio of Mary Immaculate 1934
Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War 1934, 1936-1939
Maximilian Kolbe (Polish Franciscan, died at Auschwitz), 1941
Edith Stein (Carmelite nun, died at Auschwitz), 1942
Dusty Miller (Martyr), 1945, a Methodist layman killed as a P.O.W. of the Japanese in Thailand during WWII.
Theodore Romzha, 1947
Zdenka Cecilia Schelingová, 1955
Martyrs of Atlas, 1996
Fr. Ragheed Ganni, subdeacons Basman Yousef Daud, Wahid Hanna Isho, and Gassan Isam Bidawed, 3 June 2007, in Mosul, Iraq.
Bae Hyung-kyu (???), pastor and leader of South Korean volunteer group, Afghanistan, July 2007.
Shim Sung-min (???), former information technology worker, Afghanistan, July 2007.

To name a few who died for Jesus. Christianity is all about sacrifice, and the greatest sacrifice is to die. It really is a religon glorifying death. I don't know why the pro-LIFE movement is associated with them.

Jess, wow. What a twisted way to look at that.

Jess, those people were killed by EVIL men, and yet had hope in a Savior and knew that once they died, they would have a home in Heaven to look forward to.

I am frankly pretty surprised that this is your idea of proof that Christians love death. That others killed us and we love Jesus? That's why we love death?

Christianity is about VICTORY OVER DEATH.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

"If I took food and water away from my children for 13 days till they died, would I be actively killing them or just "letting them die"? "

Bethany, you are missing my point, and I explained it thoroughly on the other thread.

A. In PVS, it is sort of a gray area but I think only the person involved could decide. If there is a living will that said, "If I am in a PVS, please let me die," that should be honored. It's called patient's rights.

B. Schaivo's case I can't comment on b/c I don't know much about it.

C. "Allowing to die" refers to people that are, for lack of a better word, dying, in the near future. For example, if someone has terminal cancer and says "I don't want treatment" then they die of the disease. When you die of the DISEASE you are dying naturally. You are allowing someone to die. If the patient (or proxy is necessary) wants this, we can't make them get treatment.

D. Food and nutrition being withheld is not really the same as allowing someone to die because they die of starvation, not the disease. But, a feeding tube is still a medical treatment, and again, we can't force someone to be treated, and if they express a desire to be removed, we have to honor their wishes.

"Allow me to be eaten by the beasts—that is how I can reach God; I am God's wheat and I am ground by the teeth of wild beasts that I may be found pure bread of Christ.... Pray to Christ for me, that by these means I may become a sacrifice." —Ignatius to the Romans, Ignatius of Antioch.

Martyrs at least were once worshiped. Really, Christianity is about sacrificing as much as you can, women to sacrifice their bodies, men to sacrifice their money and worldly possessions. And I'm not saying be greedy and horde I'm just saying the best thing you can do in Christianity is to die for Jesus. But then you go to heaven so it's ok.

I love it when non-Christians tell me what Christianity is about. LOL

...or should I say anti-Christians.

How am I a non-Chriatian or anti-Christian? Christianity is a lot harsher then you realize. Didn't Saint Peter say suffer not a woman to teach? If you are a Christian don't try to lecture us. Be humble, know your place.

LOL Jess, you are obviously an anti-Christian. That's a no brainer.

Peter? And no, it wasn't Peter who said that, it was Paul, and I've already posted an explanation for that chapter which many take out of context to mean something it doesn't. I can pull that info up for you, if you'd like.

I am a protestant, just to let you know. Never heard of Ignatius till you mentioned him.
I simply believe in the Bible and what it says.

I hate it when people warp Christianity to suit their needs. God is about fear and punishment. Real Christians should be afraid.

I hate it when people warp Christianity to suit their needs.

I agree. I think it's wrong. I wish you'd stop doing it.

The whole Bible, all of it, even the old testament?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:7-11)

1
1 Praise the LORD, who is so good; God's love endures forever;
2
Praise the God of gods; God's love endures forever;
3
Praise the Lord of lords; God's love endures forever;
4
Who alone has done great wonders, God's love endures forever;
5
Who skillfully made the heavens, God's love endures forever;
6
Who spread the earth upon the waters, God's love endures forever;
7
Who made the great lights, God's love endures forever;
8
The sun to rule the day, God's love endures forever;
9
The moon and stars to rule the night, God's love endures forever;
10
Who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, God's love endures forever;
11
And led Israel from their midst, God's love endures forever;
12
With mighty hand and outstretched arm, God's love endures forever;
13
Who split in two the Red Sea, God's love endures forever;
14
And led Israel through, God's love endures forever;
15
But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea, God's love endures forever;
16
Who led the people through the desert, God's love endures forever;
17
Who struck down great kings, God's love endures forever;
18
Slew powerful kings, God's love endures forever;
19
Sihon, king of the Amorites, God's love endures forever;
20
Og, king of Bashan, God's love endures forever;
21
And made their lands a heritage, God's love endures forever;
22
2 A heritage for Israel, God's servant, God's love endures forever.
23
The LORD remembered us in our misery, God's love endures forever;
24
Freed us from our foes, God's love endures forever;
25
And gives food to all flesh, God's love endures forever.
26
Praise the God of heaven, God's love endures forever.

The whole Bible, all of it, even the old testament?

Of course. But not an anti-Christian's interpretation of it.

Why are you a protestant why aren't you Catholic? The original apostles founded the Catholic Church.

"Never heard of Ignatius till you mentioned him. "
Oh Bethany, you're missing out! He's the MAN! Jess gave a beautiful quote by him. You should look into it. One of the very early Christian martyrs, early 2nd century I believe. God love you.

I'm not going to get into a protestant/Catholic debate with you, Jess.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. That's all you need to know.

I hate it when people warp Christianity to suit their needs.

Why? You apparently hate Christianity, so why care if you think it's misrepresented?

By the way, I know God. He is a God of love and mercy. You shouldn't talk badly about someone you do not know.

Thanks Bobby, I'll look into it. :)

Jess- why do you want to invoke a Protestant/Catholic debate when in either case, you're apostate?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I hate who you people just assume I don't pray or believe in God and yes I was baptized Catholic but none of you believe that. I pray often. I think very deeply about religous and moral matters. God knows me, and I know God. God is everywhere, even in me. I'm Gods child too, just like you. Maybe God even cares about me a little extra because I need it. Remember how the shepherd left his flock of 99 to search for the lamb that went missing.

And I was not trying to hurt your feelings or mock your faith.

MSNBC - 2005

Schiavo autopsy shows irreversible brain damage

LARGO, Fla. - An autopsy on Terri Schiavo backed her husband’s contention that she was in a persistent vegetative state, finding that she had massive and irreversible brain damage and was blind, the medical examiner’s office said Wednesday. It also found no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused.

But what caused her collapse 15 years ago remained a mystery.

The autopsy and post-mortem investigation found no proof that she had an eating disorder, as was suspected at the time, Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin said.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after her death on March 31 ended a right-to-die battle between her husband and parents that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.

Schiavo's husband, Michael, said his wife never would have wanted to be kept alive in what court-appointed doctors concluded was a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, doubted she had any such end-of-life wishes and disputed that she was in a vegetative state.

Schiavo died from dehydration, Thogmartin said. He said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

Schindlers unconvinced

Regardless of the autopsy findings, the Schindlers continue to believe their daughter was not in a persistent vegetative state, their lawyer, David Gibbs III, said after Thogmartin’s report was issued. He said they plan to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action. “We are, at this point, examining every option and no decisions have been made,” Gibbs said. George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, said his client “was pleased to hear the hard science and evidence of those findings.”

“It’s a hard fact, it’s a scientific fact that Terri Schiavo was blind,” Felos said. He said Michael Schiavo plans to release autopsy photographs of her shrunken brain in the near future.

I hate who you people just assume I don't pray or believe in God and yes I was baptized Catholic but none of you believe that. I pray often. I think very deeply about religious and moral matters. God knows me, and I know God. God is everywhere, even in me. I'm Gods child too, just like you. Maybe God even cares about me a little extra because I need it. Remember how the shepherd left his flock of 99 to search for the lamb that went missing.

I find that difficult to believe, not because of who you are, but because of the way you openly mocked my beliefs which are based on the Bible, God's word.

I thought you said God was only interested in fear and judgement? Why do you realize his caring side only when it suits you?

I agree with you. God cares a LOT about you. But I don't see how you can say He isn't a loving God in one breath, then say he is in the next.

And I was not trying to hurt your feelings or mock your faith.

Well you did a good job of it regardless of if your intent was to or not. But if this is an apology, I accept your apology.

Remember how the shepherd left his flock of 99 to search for the lamb that went missing.

Isn't that a sweet testimony to God's love for us? Doesn't sound like a God about fear and punishment to me. Sounds like a loving Father searching for his child.

If you know God, stop blastpheming Him by suggesting that He's for killing the weak (unborn, ill, etc.) and claiming that He glorifies death. He DEFEATED death on our behalf. If you know Him, you know none of what you say is true.

Doug, I'm copying and pasting this again for you, so you won't miss it. I posted it in the last one, but it was already in the archives. Sorry it's so long.

I'm going to paste some of the info that a commenter (James) had posted regarding the Terri Schiavo case in the other thread about her. He is an expert on Terri's case, and I think that the information he posted is very important for everyone to read.

******************
We have seen the Clear and Convincing Evidence that used to condemn Terri to death. Of course there some very trouble facts surrounding these alleged wishes:

Michael waited 8 after the fact before stating that Terri Schiavo would not want a feeding tube.

While Michael did say in 1993 depo that Terri wouldn't want to live in such a condition, at around the same time Michael was asked about the prospect of removing the feedinh tube. Michael's response was "I couldn't do that to Terri."

Michael's claims were in direct contradiction to Michael's sworn testimony and commitments said at the 1992 Mal Trial.

Although, Michael claims he still had hope at the time Terri might recover, Michael was suing for 20 Million dollars.

The the value of suit based on the doctor's failure to diagnosis Terri correctly was derived from expert witnesses on Michael's behalf that estimated that Terri would live to around the age of 50. To that end, her condition would require purchasing a special house and van for her needs. Terri would also need expensive rehab and nursing care too. All of this was caculated to be around 20 Million dollars.

When Michael submitted his 1998 petition to remove the feeding tube, Michael had made his intentions clear that intended to marry Jodi.

It was also determined that around $750,000 existed in Terri's trust and Michael was sole heir of it when she died.

GAL Pearse investigated, and discovered Michael's financial conflict. GAL Pearse, not Michael Schiavo suggested he set up a charity offer to separate himself from the conflict.

Michael set up the charity offer but it had special stipulations.

It required the Schindlers to drop their suit and side with Michael.

This was something that Schindler simply would not do and went against their core believe on the removal of the feeding tube.

Michael would not donate the money to charity unless the Schindlers sided with them.

If the court made the decision, which it did, Michael was under no legal obilgation to donate the money.

At the time the decision was made in 2000 (This is a fundemental key point), Michael was set to inherit $750,000 with no legal obligation to donate the money.

Neither the Schindlers or Michael knew the case would last another 5 years. Michael even wrote that he was suprised to learn that the Schindlers could appeal the decision.

As why Michael refused money bribes in 2005.....

To many people became involved in the case and it was about pushing the agenda.

Felos even told Michael when he considered giving up, that case wasn't about Terri anymore...it was about the agenda.

The Doctors and Terri Schiavo
At time of Terri's death, the Schindlers had nearly 40 doctors on the record who stated that Terri wasn't PVS or new testing was needed to confirm her diagnosis.

Many of these doctors relied soley on the video tape clips and their own personal experiences and expertise in brain injury and PVS.

However, several doctors did manage to examine Terri or at least observe her and many did see her medical records (at least some of them). Take Dr. Sara Mele for instance who was able see Terri medical records from Medaplex.

Michael and his confederates undercut the Schindler's 40 docs by stating that many of them never examined Terri and only relied on the video tape clips.

However, Michael neglects one critical fact that was never pointed out; Michael would not let any doctors to examine Terri (Schinder docs).

In fact, Michael got a court order which prevented any Schindler doc from examining Terri or conducting any tests on her.

This was part of Michael and Felos's plan to prevent the Schindlers from upsetting the PVS diagnosis (which was critical in insuring Terri's death) and getting her treatment.

Michael could always use the defense and he did, that they didn't examine Terri when in fact Michael prevented them from examining Terri.

Dr. Hammersfar and several docs wanted to examine Terri in 2001, but Michael prevented it and Dr. Hammersfar was only able to examine her when the Appeals Court ordered it (during that time Michael petitioned 2 times to have Terri killed).

But when we examine the examination factor, we see that it is quite weak. Observe:
Dr. Barnhill - Examined Terri for 10 minutes one time and I believe for 1 hour another time.
Dr. Karp - Examined Terri for 1 hour.
Dr. Cranford - Examined Terri for 45 minutes.
Dr. Greer - Examined Terri for 30 minutes
Dr. Bambakidis - Examined Terri for 30 minutes
Dr. Gambone - Examined her for 1 hour once and 10 minutes every 4 mouths after that.
Total Time of examinations over 4 or 5 year period - A little more than 5 hours.

The earlier docs did examine her (Dr. Barras, Dr. De Sousa) much more extensively in the early years, but back then the MCS wasn't widely known and was never revisited by those docs.

I will agree the early docs probably had great deal insight into Terri's condition. After Dr. Barnhill, examinations of Terri were quite weak and the MCS diagnosis became much more well known. However, Terri was never given to most advanced tests to confirm this diagnosis and the autopsy (Dr. Nelson reported it) did say that Terri could have been MCS.

Several Doctors did observe her and deemed her not PVS or questionalable PVS:

Dr. Cheshire - Obeserved Terri for 90 minutes. Saw her medical records and uneditted video tapes.

Dr. Avery - Obeserved Terri for 30 minutes.

Dr. Carpenter - Observed Terri for 30 minutes

Dr. Young - Observed Terri for 30 minutes.

2 Doctors did run examinations on her:

Dr. Hammersfahr - Examined Terri for over 3 hours.

Dr. Maxfield - Examined Terri for nearly 3 hours. Some argue the Dr. Maxfield was a radiologist conducting a neurological examination. However, Dr. Gambone wasn't a neurologist either and conducted a neurological examination in much less time. Both had full disclosure to Terri's medical history.

Between Hammersfahr and Maxfield Terri was examined longer than all of Michael's other doctors combined.

Also the following caregivers were able to make observations too:

Carla Iyer

Heidi Law

Carolyn Johnson

Trudy Capone

You also have the following people who questioned PVS:

Fr. Molnowski

Bob Schindler, Mary Schindler, Suzanne Schindler, and Bobby Schindler

Pat Anderson, Tom Boderson (speech therapist) and David Gibbs

Michael resisted any testing needed to further confirm her diagnosis even though the Schindlers pleaded adamantly that Terri needed further testing based on dozens of affidavits from doctors accross the country.

Later, Michael claimed he wanted an autopsy to prove to the world the extent of Terri's brain damage.

Michael resisted any and all efforts to have Terri further diagnosised but after she was dead had no problem have different tests performed on her to prove her diagnosis.

Some Argue that Terri's CT Scan showed clear evidence of Terri's PVS Diagnosis. While a CT scan does show structural damage, a CT scan can only provide little into functional ability of a damaged brain. A bad CT scan does not automatically mean a person is PVS.

Some argue that Terri had 3 EEGs and they were all flat. Terri's EEGs were not flat but were abnormal. Several of EEGs may have not been completely accurate because of artifact.

Some argue that the autopsy proved Terri's brain was mush. While autopsy did report severe brain damage,it did report the cognitive areas of Terri's brain were intact. Dr. Thogmartin also could not determine what effect 13 days of dehydration had on the shrinkage of Terri's brain or her brain damage.

It should also be noted that Karen Ann Queilan was also PVS. However, her brain damage was focused on her thalmus and not the cerebral cortext. With Terri it was reversed. Terri's cerebral cortex was damaged, but Terri's thalmus was fairly intact (there was still damage). Scientists are beginning to understand that the Thalmus might play more active role in human consciousnes.

In a final note, Terri was never examined again after the 2002 trial even though radical new testing had become available that could have answered many troubling questions experts voiced about her condition.

Terri's wishes - Everyone is saying that there was Clear and Convincing Evidence that Terri Schiavo would have wanted the feeding tube to be removing. However, reviewing these facts put heavy clout on Terri's so-called wishes.

1. Terri Collapses in 1990.

2. In 1992, the Mal Trial is held.

3. Michael testfies the following - "I believe in the vows that I took with my wife,

___
28

1 through sickness, in health, for richer or poorer. I

2 married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the

3 rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that."

4. It during this time Michael states to 3 different people (Trudy Capone, Cindy Shook, Fran Casler) that he does not know what Terri's wishes are or even what he should do with her (what are his future plans).

5. Michael is awarded $300,000 LOC and Terri is awarded $750,000.

6. Michael and the Schindlers have a fight.

7. Michael goes to Terri's doctor. He says she isn't going to recover.

8. Micheal gets a new girlfriend and is the inheritor of Terri's $750,000.

9. Michael now believes that Terri Schiavo doesn't want to live in her condition and orders a UTI refusal pursuant to her death (Under the doctor's advice).

10. When Michael is asked about removing Terri's feeding tube, Michael responds - "I can't do that to Terri."

11. Between 1993 and 1995 the first guardianship suit occurs.

12. Days after the suit ends in 1995, Michael does the second UTI refusal. He is unsucessful.

13. At the end of 1995, Michael contacts George Felos through his attorney Deb Bushnell.

14. For the next 1.5 years, legal actions are taken. Michael signs a contact with Felos.

15. July 1997 - Michael mom dies.

16. August 1997 - Felos sends a letter to Bob Schindler about Terri's feeding tube removal.

17. May 1998 - The first petition is submitted.

18. GAL Pearse investigates - He askes Michael; "We there others"(Terri's wishes). Michael says no.

19. December 1998 - GAL Pearse submits his report. Michael is conflicted and his claims are not credible.

20. June 1999 - GAL Pearse is discharged on advice from Felos. No other GAL is appointed.

21. September 1999 - Scott and Joan Schiavo come forward and state they know Terri's wishes after being contacted by Felos.

22. 2000 Trial - Scott and Joan and Michael testify to Terri's wishes. Scott and Joan claim they never told Michael anything over the 9 year period.
Posted by: james [TypeKey Profile Page] at March 31, 2007 7:54 PM

The Following is review of the Clear and Convincing Evidence used to condemn Terri to death:

Michael Schiavo:

Train Trip wish - Terri told Michael when she was 22 years old that if she ever became a burden (disabled), she wouldn't want to live like that. The substance of what Terri's actually said, varies from the different testimonies Michael has given.

TV Wish - A couple of times when watching TV, Terri said to Michael - Who would want to live like that (referring to life support programs.)?

Scott Schiavo:

Terri shared her opinion at a luncheon with Scott that she objected being ever put on ventilator is she at the end of her life (she is dying).

Joan Schiavo:

Was watching a TV program with Joan about a man in coma after diving accident a reportly voiced objection about being allowed to live in such a state. Interestingly, while Joan claimed to discuss elements of the movie, Joan testifed 3 different times that could not remember the movie.

This is all the Clear and Covincing Evidence that there was.

Terri never made any mention of not wanting to be kept alive in PVS state.

Terri never asked for a feeding tube to be removed.

The Clear and Convincing standard is very high.

David Bryer was a patient in Pinellis County, Florida who exactly like Terri Schiavo. He was PVS and I believe his wife went to court to remove the feeding tube.

In 2002, David Bryer died. I do not know if his feeding tube was removed or he died of natural causes.

Apparently though, there was trial on this matter in front of Judge Seth Walker (now retired).

Judge Walker was a pro-life judge and refused to remove his feeding tube.

Diana Lynne in her book Terri's Story presents a piece of his opinion."You feed goldfish.""This court must give deference to human life, no matter its state. The lack of medical ["probability"] of neurological improvement is insufficient to command its termination. We must feed David Bryer."

I don't know if the Clear and Convincing evidence was met in that case but it should be noted that Felos believed the feeding tube should have been removed anyway from Terri Schiavo in light of best interest (In case the Clear and Convincing evidence did not exist.)

It should also be noted that Judge Seth Walker was known for his pro-life religious views. Judge Walker was in the St. Petersburg Division.

In 1997, Felos sought to get case taken out of the St. Petersburg division and placed in the Clearwater Division.

This probably because Felos did not want to take a chance of Judge Walker preciding over the Schiavo case.

Felos was successful and ultimately the case was heard in front of Judge Greer instead of Judge Walker.

Too bad for Terri Schiavo.

She may been spared if Judge Walker heard the case.

http://www.centerforajustsociety.org/uploads/terri012905.mp3

This is an old interview in which Ken Connor talks to John Sipos. 20 Minutes long. Very Good

Talking Points

- Terri has not recieved due process equal to that of convicted mass murderers and yet has recieved a death sentence.- Terri Schiavo never recieved independent counsel

- Terri death sentence is cruel and unsual punishment that would be unconstitutional if given to a death row inmate.- The Florida Supreme court never reviewed to case related to removal of the feeding tube (Judge Baird Order related to it) only the constitutionality over Terri's Law - They were trying to protect their own turf.- Ted Bundy recieved more due process than Terri Schiavo.- Terri never had a GAL at the time the decision was made to remove the feeding tube.- Judge Greer served as advocate and adujucaitor in the Guardianship court - The Schindler's lawyers weren't able to challenge or cross examine Judge Greer.

Connor ends on the note that Terri Schiavo never received independent counsel or a trial by Jury.

http://theempirejournal.com/extras/siposanderson052905.mp3

Pat Anderson Speaks after Terri Schiavo's death. About 30 minutes long.

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=wo_02182005.rm

David Gibbs and Bob Schindler are interviewed in February 2005. About 1 hour long. Very good.

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=wo_06172005.rm

Bobby Schiavo and Lawyer Michael Gayor discuss Terri after she dies and the legalities and problems with it.
Posted by: james at March

Under Felos's examination, Joan testified to the following:

A. Yeah, We watched a movie one time on television. It was about somebody. I don't remember. I don't remember the movie.

Joan testfied that she and Terri watched a movie but Joan says she doesn't remember the movie.

Given that Joan Schiavo suddenly remembered the movie memory after 9 years, this is not suprising.

However, in the testimony paragraph, Joan seems to give contradictory statements regarding her statement that she said she didn't remember the movie

"It was about a guy who had an accident and he was in a coma. There was no help for him"

This statement directly follows her statement that she didn't remember the movie. This sound contradictory.

Later when being questioned by Campbell, Joan's memory suddenly starts to improve despite her repeated claims that she doesn't remember the movie

Q. Can you describe the scene in the movie with the man and the tubes?
A. He was a younger man. I don't remember the movie. If I'm not mistaken, it was diving accident in the pool. He passed away at the end of the movie of the movie. I don't remember the movie. I really don't remember the movie.

Joan repeatly claims she doesn't remember the movie and yet she can recall the it was a diving accident and the man died at the end. Joan also recalls other details about the movie

A. In the movie he was in a hospital setting.

Q. Do you recall where the tubes were coming from?

A. His mouth. He had some in his arm.

Joan just testified she didn't remember the movie. I find very convenient and suspect that Joan could only recall the part where Terri made her alleged comments. This was after 9 years.

During that time I gently spoke to her, built rapport and trust, sang
to her, played music for her, and encouraged her to vocalize. Over the
twenty days or so that I visited with Terri, I observed that, while
Terri is distrustful of strangers, she gradually warmed up to me (and
not so gradually after Bob, Mary and I sang "Those Were the Days" to
her as a trio!). Terri responds to a variety of stimulii, including
responding to both her mother's and my voices, both in person and over
the phone, by fixing her attention and frequently by laughing. When I
sang to her, she often VOCALIZED, in her best effort to sing along with
me. She recognizes and takes great pleasure in certain singers and
songs which ARE her favorites (most especially John Denver
singing "Country Roads"). She learned to love several songs I sang to
her with which she didn't seem to be familiar with, but others she
never learned to appreciate (just not her cup of tea, obviously). She
responded to gentle requests if given time and patience, such as
lifting her right leg (three times out of four requests, the other time
she lifted her left leg instead). While she does not have consistent
control over her eyes to blink or look this way or that, she has
excellent control over her breathing, diaphram and voice, and will
vocalize
in various patterns if asked. While trying to work out a yes/no system
with sounds, Terri initially answered the question "Terri, are you ten
feet tall" by moaning twice, which is the response for "No," then she
spontaneously whispered the word "No" in response to the question
"Terry,
are you purple?". At that point I abandoned the sounding system and
started
trying to teach her to say "Yeah" as best as she could. Bob Schindler
has several recordings of her sort of saying the word "Yeah" shortly
after that.

Unfortunately, I was then taken off Terri's visitors list, but on
successive occasions (as recently as last October, approximately two
years since I last saw her in person), when her father placed
a phone to Terri's ear so I could talk to her, she laughed as soon
as she heard my voice, andtried to sing along with me when I sang
to her over the phone.

Terri is not just "in there," she is very responsive, she loves music,
and she is my friend.
Posted by: james at March 31, 2007 7:52 AM

Five Different Stories

Michael has given 5 different stories regarding Terri's collapse. Lets look at each story.

Story #1 1992 Depo

Michael says he came home around 12:30am or 1:00am. He says that Terri was not up and woke up when he climbed into bed. Terri says good night to him. Next Michael claims he was getting out of bed FOR SOME REASON around 5:00am and hears Terri collapse. He runs to her sees her lying ON HER BACK. Michael says he was holding Terri trying to wake her up but couldn't. Michael goes and calls 911. He goes back continues to hold Terri. Next Michael calls Bobby Schindler andhe arrives few minutes later. The paramedics arrive shortly after that.

Story #2 1992 Mal Trial

Michael says he came home around 11:30pm or 12:00am. Now Michael claims he doesn't recall whether Terri was up or not and whether he talked to Terri or not.

Story # 3 2000 Trial

Michael claims he came home late. Now Michael claims that Terri woke up and heard him. Terri says good night to him. Next Michael claims he was getting out of bed FOR SOME REASON and he hears Terri fall. He goes over to her and he says she is ON HER STOMACH. He rolls her over. He can't wake her up. Michael goes and calls Bobby Schindler and then goes back to Terri. He holds Terri. He rocks her. A few minutes later Bobby Schindler shows up.

Story #4 Larry King Interview 2003

Michael claims he came home around 2:00am. Michael climbs into bed. Terri wakes up and says good night to him and gives him a kiss. Next Michael claims around 4:30am, he woke FOR SOME REASON and he hears Terri fall. He goes over to Terri and rolls her over. He holds her in his arms and tries to shake her up. He calls 911. He calls Bobby Schindler. A few minutes later the paramedics arrive.

Story #5 Michael's Book

Michael claims he arrives home around 12:30am or 1:00am. Michael climbs into bed. Terri wakes up. Terri says Hello and says "I love you." She kisses him and says good night. Around 5:30am, Michael wakes up TO USE THE BATHROOM. He hears Terri collapse. He goes over to her. He rolls her over. He goes and calls 911. He goes back to Terri. Now Michael claims HE CALLED TERRI'S PARENTS. He goes back to Terri. Next Michael calls Bobby Schindler. He goes back to Terri. A few minutes later, Bobby Schindler shows up.
Posted by: James at March 31, 2007 7:49 AM

Michael seems to have altered the testimony of both Scott and Joan Schiavo in his book. I assume this was done to give his book just right impression he wanted and possibly to get additional sympathy.

Scott Schiavo:

pg. 144 Michael writes:"Scott recounted what he told Judge Greer had happened back in February 1988....""Basically, she was gone, and we had to sit there for - it was Friday, and it was almost two days that we sat there and watched this machine blow air into her and suck it out, until she passed away."

However, Scott Schiavo actually testfied to the following:

Q. How long was your grandmother on the ventilator?

A. From the early morning hours till mid afternoon of the same day.

That's certainly not 2 days. Maybe, several hours. Flaw #1."We went to lunch afterward at a restaurant called the Buck Hotel."

But Scott testfied to the following:

A. Yes, there was. At the luncheon that we had, you know, my family, friends, and stuff.

Q. Kind of describe that for us.

A. We went to a, its called a country club but we went there for a luncheon afterwards.

Buck Hotel is not a country club. Flaw #2

"And Terri was sitting right to the left of me, and she turned around and looked me right in the eyes, and she said,'Not me, I would never want to be left that way. Don't ever let them do that to me.'"

However Scott testfied to the following:"And Terri made mention at that conversation,"If I ever go like that, just let me go. don't leave me there. I don't want to kept alive on a machine."

Joan Schiavo:

Pg. 159

"Joan and my brother Bill lost their first child, a little girl, who was born with the umbilical cord around her neck. In that same conversation with Terri about the patient in the movie, Joan began talking about their experience with the death of the baby, and it's a story she also told Judge Greer."We were just sitting and talking about the baby. If she had stayed alive - because of the cord being wrapped around her neck - she probably would have been brain dead, and my husband and I would have to make that decision, if we were faced with it, if we wanted to keep her alive like that or not. And as we were talking, I said that as hard as it would be, it would be a decision where we'd probably pull the plug, because I couldn't stand to see her like that.'Cause it wasn't a life for her, she only a little baby. And Terri agreed with me."

This is a complete fabrication filled half truths.

Observe what really happen. Joan testified to the following:

A. A friend of mine and her husband had a baby. It was their first baby, and the baby was born sickly. They had to put the baby on a ventilator or machines to keep the baby alive. And they had to make that decision if they wanted to take the baby off the tubes and all.

Later joan testfies the following:

Q. The movie on television was that, that occurred before or after the -- did you testify that occurred before the conversations you had about the baby? Let me ask it again. The conversation you had with Terri about a TV show and the diver not wanting be on life support, was that before or after the situation came up with your girlfriend?

A. After.

This definitely reflected in George Greer Ruling:"Into the former category the court places statements regarding Karen Ann Quinlin and the infant child of the friend of Joan Schiavo."
Posted by: James at March 31, 2007 7:45 AM

Below are numerous accounts that showed that Terri was aware of her environment in a very primitive way.

In 1991 PT session Therapists reported that Terri was saying word "stop"

In the Mal Trial video, behaviors where shown to the court that showed Terri was apparently discomforted to some of things that happening to her.

Carla Iyer reported that Terri would say help me, mom, pain numerous times.

Heidi Law reported that Terri would follow her around the room with her eyes.

Fr. Molanowski and Frank Pavone reported Terri was very receptive to prayer.

Numerous caregivers reported that Terri would often laugh at jokes.

David Gibbs saw Terri try to say "I love you." to Mary Schindler.

Bobby Schindlers reported that Terri smiled and laughed when he mentioned he attended a Bruce Springsteen concert.

Tom Broderson discovered that Terri has distinct likes and dislikes to certain types of music.

Some caregivers reported that Terri would fuss if the radio station was changed to music she did not care for.

Terri reacted different to Mary than she did to Bob Schindler and would often put on a "Lemon Face." for Bob.

Suzanne and Barbara Weller reported that Terri tried to say "I want to live."

Terri tried to get out of her chair when she was told on the phone that she was going to be starved to death.

Terri followed Dr. Hammersfahr's commands to open her eyes.

Terri laughed when she was told about her "Lazy Eye"
Posted by: James at March 31, 2007 7:38 AM

Posted by: Bethany at September 20, 2007 8:04 AM

More....

Reasons why Congress intervened

While I won't deny that some involved themselves purely for political purposes, below are some of the reason why Congress felt that they should have involved themselves in the Schiavo case.

When it was discovered that an innocent, disabled young woman was going to be starved and dehydrated to death by the order of a court, Congress decided to step in. Upon entering the arena many discovered some disturbing facts that prompted Congress to create federal involvement from the court level.

1. Some realized that Terri wasn't dying. She wasn't being kept alive artificially. She was receiving the provision of food and water because she had trouble swallowing (remember she could swallow but docs feared aspiration so no attempts were made). This wasn't a right to die case. Terri was disabled. Many looked at this from a disability POV.

2. Some looked at the video tapes claiming she was PVS, Comatosed, or brain dead. After seeing evidence of an aware person and consulting neurologists who examined her and consulting the Schindlers and dozens of doctor affidavits, Congress clearly become concerned. There was more the shadow of doubt to doubt Terri's PVS diagnosis.

3. When Congress saw that a human was going to be starved and dehydrated to death and realized that death row inmates were protected from this by the 8th amendment, Congress really became concerned. They further became concerned when they realized that this act couldn't be done to an animal without persecution.

5. Many became concerned based on Terri's wishes on the fact that there was nothing in writing. They became concerned when a adultorous husband was making the decision and the parents only wanted to care for her. Further troubling were caregivers affidavits claiming that Michael was not as sincere as we were lead to believe. Further troubling was fact that when Michael had submitted his 1998 petition to remove Terri's feeding tube, he poised to inherit $750,000 and was poised to marry his financee Jodi.

6. Many became concerned when they discovered that Terri had no lawyer and that Judge Greer acted as the Judge, Jury, and Executionor in the case. They realized that even death row inmates were entitled to legal representation. Terri never had any legal representation. The Schindlers were represented, Michael was represented but Terri was never represented.

7. Congress became concerned that Terri was being sentenced to death when a great deal of doubt was there concerning her condition. Some were disturbed by the cursory examintions by docs claiming she was PVS (1 hour or less). Others realized that Terri wasn't recieving the best medical tests available (no fMRI or PET scans). Further they saw that Terri hadn't been examined in 3 years. They also took note that Terri never had a swallowing test in over 10 years even though GAL Pearse and many other strongly urged Terri to undergo swallowing tests.

8. Some realized the care of Terri was horrible liking being lock up in a hospice room for 3 years.

9. Congress also realized that Terri never recieved a federal review or a trial by jury, 2 things entitled to death row inmates.

Just some reasons why Congress probably got involved.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 10:07 PM

GOOD GOD!!! I DID NOT SAY ONE FRIGGIN DEROGATORY THING ABOUT TERRI SCHAIVO OR HER BROTHER PEOPLE, GET OFF MY A**!!!!
Posted by: Q at March 30, 2007 10:22 PM

The worst of these cases of which I am aware is the tragic dehydration of Marjorie Nighbert. Marjorie was a successful businesswoman until a stroke left her disabled. She was unable to swallow safely, but not terminally ill. She was moved from Alabama to a nursing home in Florida where she would receive rehabilitation to help her relearn how to chew and swallow without danger of aspiration. A feeding tube was inserted to ensure that she was properly nourished during her recovery.

Marjorie had once told her brother Maynard that she didn’t want a feeding tube if she were terminally ill. Despite the fact that she was not dying, Maynard believed that she had meant that she would rather die by dehydration than live the rest of her life using a feeding tube. Accordingly, he ordered all of Marjorie’s nourishment stopped.

As she was slowly dehydrating to death, Marjorie began to beg the staff for food and water. Distraught nurses and staff members, not knowing what else to do, surreptitiously snuck her small amounts. One staffer—who was later fired for the deed—blew the whistle, leading to a hurried court investigation and a temporary restraining order requiring that Marjorie receive nourishment.

Circuit Court Judge Jere Tolton appointed attorney William F. Stone to represent Marjorie and gave him twenty-four hours to determine whether she was competent to rescind the general power of attorney she had given to Maynard before her stroke. After the rushed investigation, Stone was forced to report that Marjorie was not competent at that time.(She had, after all, been intentionally malnourished for several weeks.) Stone particularly noted that he had been unable to determine whether she had been competent at the time the dehydration commenced.

With Stone’s report in hand, Judge Tolton ruled that the dehydration should be completed! Before an appalled Stone could appeal, Marjorie died on April 6, 1995.

Wesley Smith's Research
Posted by: James at March 30

*************************

I have always wondered what happen to the 20 minute Terri Schiavo video that was shown at Mal Practice trial in 1992.
It is interesting that that video was never mentioned again and was never used in the 2000 or 2002 trial as video evidence. The video is never mentioned again in any future affidavit or motion that I could find.

The video was very important for several reasons. Based on the testimony by Michael Schiavo, it showed that Terri was alert, aware, could feel pain, and could swallow.
In it the video shows Terri swallowing at times. It shows Terri reacting to pain. And it shows Terri has feelings and is alert and aware. This all based on Michael's testimony. Observe:

1992 Testimony

A. Right here, basically, you can see she's dressed,

11 she's already had her shower and everything. We would get

12 her dressed, put her shoes and socks on. I'm trying out her

13 hands there. You have to keep the inside of the hands,

14 since she's contracted, you have to keep them dry because

15 infection can set in, and I usually do a little bit of range

16 of motion with her.

17 Q. And while you're doing that, do you talk to her?

18 A. Yes, I am talking to her right now telling her

19 it's okay.

20 Q. She doesn't like that very much?

21 A. No, she doesn't. She does feel pain.

Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Does she like that kind of

5 treatment very much?

6 A. No, she does not. Here I'm trying to bend her

7 leg.

Q. I notice, Michael, you're holding her head back.

25 why are you doing that?

___
19

1 A. Because she'll fall forward, and if she falls fast

2 she gets excited. It's -- I was told by a doctor she was

3 getting the feeling she's falling.

Q. You hoping he can get her to the point where she

15 swallows?

16 A. Yes. You see here rubbing the bottom of her

17 throat, that's, I don't know what the word is, gets them to

18 swallow when you rub the bottom of their throat. She just

19 swallowed that time.

Q. Does she express discomfort when some of these

9 things are happening to her?

10 A. Yes. Yes, she does.

11 Q. How does she do that?

12 A. She'll moan and groan.

I like to get her outside for fresh air.

This is a video that was never released but shown at the Mal Trial. It showed 4 things about Terri to seems to refute PVS based on Michael's testimony.

1. It shows Terri reacting to pain.

2. It shows Terri has feelings.

3. It shows Terri alert and aware.

4. It shows Terri can swallow to some degree.

Addition, if Terri condition progressed over the years, one can assume that was because of Michael's neglect to get Terri further therapy and rehabilitation.

Michael sarcasticly writes in his book that Schindlers went looking for doctor after doctor until they could find someone that would give Terri a chance.

Finally, Michael remarks that he would bring Terri outside for fresh air. By the time Terri arrvied at hospice, Terri was pretty much jailed in her room for the last 4 to 5 years of her life.

Michael threatened to arrest anyone who attempted to bring her outside or have her attend any social function.

Of course Michael claims he was protecting Terri's right to privacy but I don't buy it. Michael hired a private security guard to protect Terri. Michael could have taken her anywhere and her body guard could have been there to protect Terri's privacy.

post this post from time to time to allow new lurkers to see it. It is important to understand to evilness of Michael's actions and behaviors by studying his famous Malpractice trial testimony. This testimony is basically the root of Michael's evilness and served as basis of fact in many future motions in the attempt to save Terri's life from the clutches of Michael Schiavo. Under heavy emotional stress, Michael made 4 critical promises at the malpractice trial. These promises were made to jury, to the Schindlers, and most importantly to Terri. After the conclusion of malpractice trial, Michael didn't fulfill even one of these promises and proceeded on his quest to have Terri killed. Observe:

Promise #1 - 25 Q. Why did you want to learn to be a nurse?
1 A. Because I enjoy it and I want to learn more how

2 to take care of Terry.

Michael promised to become a nurse for the goal of taking care of Terri. Michael really did not do this. Shortly after he made this promise, Michael sought to have Terri killed by refusing her treatment for UTI infection. This happened when Michael barley gotten started in his nursing career. Eventually he did become a nurse, but only after repeated attempts to have Terri killed.

Promise #2 - 8 Q. Where do you want to take care of your wife?

9 A. I want to bring my wife home.

10 Q. If you had the resources available to you, if you

11 had the equipment and the people, would you do that?

12 A. Yes, I would, in a heartbeat.

Michael never brought Terri home. Michael later coped out saying it was too much work. Michael failed to point out that he had $750,000 for Terri's care and another $300,000 that Michael recieved. Addition, Michael also had $250,000 from an earlier settlement and $10,000 that he squirreled away. Finally, both the Schindlers and Schiavos could have contributed which would helped out in the cost. Later, Michael used his money instead to help Jodi purchase a house for both of them. According to Michael, his reason that taking care of Terri was too much work, was reached before the avent of the Malpractice trial. Go figure.

Promise #3 - 13 Q. How do you feel about being married to Terry now?

14 A. I feel wonderful. She's my life and I wouldn't

15 trade her for the world. I believe in my -- I believe in my

16 wedding vows.

Yet another promise broken by Michael. Shortly after the malpractice trial, Michael found Jodi and started an intimate realtionship with her. Later in 1994 Michael proposed to Jodi and started calling her his finacee. Even later, Michael didn't have the decentcy to mention Terri in either of his parent's obituaries. Even worse is when he was making this promise, Michael was having intimate relations with Cindy Shook.

Promise #4 - 25 A. I believe in the vows that I took with my wife,
1 through sickness, in health, for richer or poorer. I

2 married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the

3 rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that.

This is by far the most important promise that Michael broke. Shortly after he recieved the money, Michael posted a DNR on Terri's chart and later tried to kill her by refusing her treatment for a UTI.

No where did Michael make the promise that Terri was to be killed in accordance with her wishes not to be kept alive artificially. In fact, Terri was supposed to live another 30 years. Even more distrubing is when Michael was asked about removing the feeding tube from his doctor he stated "I couldn't do that to Terri."
Posted by: James at March 30, 20

In 1997 Clara Schiavo, Michael Schiavo's mom died. Her obituary is shown below:
Clara M. Schiavo
Former Levittown Resident
Clara M. Schiavo (nee Henkell), passed away Wednesday, July 2, 1997. For the past five years she was a resident of Seminole, Fla., living formerly for 30 years in Junewood, Levittown. She was the assistant personnel manager for the Gimble Department Store, formerly located in the Oxford Valley Mall, for ten years. She was a member of Hope Lutheran Church in Levitttown for 30 years. She was the beloved wife of William F. and the devoted mother of William F. Jr. and his wife Joan of Mayfair, Stephen O. and his wife Pamela of Fairless Hills, Brian J. and his wife Donna of Newtown, Scott E. and his wife Karen of Indiana and Michael R. and his fianc� Jodi of Fla. She was the dear grandmother of William J., Aleen C., Steven G., Kelly M., Scott R., Lisa M. Thomas M. and Ryan A. She is also survived by her sister, Joan May Enoch of Delran, NJ. Relatives and friends are invited to her viewing Mon., 10:30 a.m. until noon and to her funeral service at noon in the Campbell & Thomas Funeral Home, 905 Second St. Pike (at Old Bustleton Pike), Richboro. Her interment will take place in Sunset Memorial Park.
You will see that Terri Schiavo is not mentioned in the obituary. Jodi Centonze is mentioned instead as Michael's fiance. Michael claims his dad wrote this obituary and her knew nothing about until later. But I do not believe Michael! I think Michael knew exactly that Terri wasn't going to be in the obituary but had his father write it up to get him off the hook.
This seems quite logical when one looks at Michael's dad's obituary in 2002, 5 years later and sees that Terri is still not mentioned. Michael was primary trustee and executor of his dad's estate and inherited over $30,000 when his dad died. The dad's obituary is shown below:
Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) and Philadelphia Daily News (PA)- April 18, 2002
Deceased Name: William F. Schiavo Sr.
PA United States SCHIAVO WILLIAM F. SCHIAVO, SR., April 15, 2002. For the past 10 years he was a resident of Seminole, FL, living formerly for 30 years in Junewood, Levittown. Engineer Associate at AT&T for 35 years and was a member of Hope Lutheran Church in Levittown for 30 years. Beloved husband of the late Clara M. Schiavo (nee Henkell), devoted father of William F. Jr. and his wife Joan of Mayfair, Stephen G. of Fairless Hills, Brian J. and his wife Donna of FL, Scott E. and wife Karen of Levittown and Michael R. and his fiancee Jodi of FL. Loving grandfather of Margaret M., William J., Aleen C., Steven G., Kelly M., Scott R., Lisa M., Thomas M. and Ryan A.; also survived by his sister Helen Hillman and brother Richard Schiavo. Relatives and friends are invited to his service Sat. April 20, at Hope Lutheran Church in Levittown, 2600 Haines Rd., cor of Haines Rd. and Millcreek Pkwy at 9 A.M. Interment Sunset Memorial Park.
Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) and Philadelphia Daily News (PA)
Date: April 18, 2002
Record Number: 298823
Copyright (c) 2002 The Philadelphia Inquirer
You still see Jodi listed instead of Terri. Many have claimed that this was an oversight as the obituaries are virtually identical in structure and that is was a simple copy and paste the funeral home did.
This not entirely true as one can see the obituary has been updated to reflect new information. Observe:
1997 - Stephen O. and his wife Pamela are mentioned but in 2002 Pamela is left off. Stephen's middle initial is also changed to G.
1997- Brian and his Donna lived in Newtown, but in 2002 it was changed to FL.
1997 - Scott and Karen lived in Indiana but in 2002 that had changed to Levittown.
It seemed that the funeral home did go out and seek new information to update the obituary and yet Terri was never mentioned in either one.
What a kind and loving husband Michael Schiavo would mention Jodi over Terri in both obituaries.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 9:39 PM

In 1993, Michael sought to have Terri killed by refusing treatment for her UTI after he promised the courts and the Schindlers that he would take care of Terri for the rest of his life. It only took one doctor's advice to convince Michael Schiavo to take that action. Of course, Michael fails to point out in his book that he would have inherited $750,000 of Terri's money and makes no mention that he was going to donate it to charity. He didn't even tell the Schindlers of his plans to end Terri's life.
In 1998, after several failed attempts to end Terri's life, Michael submitted his petition to court to pull Terri's feeding tube claiming that is what Terri would want despite his sworn testimony in the mal trial. At this point there still almost $750,000 that Michael would have inherited upon Terri's death. Michael said he wasn't interested in the money but makes no effort to offer any charity donation of the Terri's money.
GAL Pearse conducts his investigation and finds Michael is severely conflicted on the financial end due to Terri's outstanding trust fund. Pearse, not Michael, suggests that he setup a charity offer.
Knowing that he is caught up in financial conflict of interest, Michael and Felos devise a legal tactic by setting up a charity offer with very special stipulations.
First, Michael makes the offer valid for only 10 days. Second, Michael says he will only donate the money if the Schindlers side with him and give up the fight.
It appears that Michael puts a stipulation in his offer that knows that Schindlers will not accept and that goes against the Schindlers core position on Terri's feeding tube removal. It is clear this was legal ruse in effort to create the illusion that he was not after the money.
However, in 2001 when Terri's feeding tube is removed, Michael knows he will not have to donate a penny because the Schindlers refused his offer. If Terri had died in 2001 (a very real possibility since the Schindlers got extremely lucky in finding Cindy Shook) Michael would have inherited hundreds of thousands of dollars of Terri's money knowing that he had no legal obilgation to donate it to charity.
Michael continued to make his offer always having the stipulation that Schindlers must accept it otherwise he wouldn't donate the money.
It was clear his offer was bogus. Michael would always make the offer to Schindlers and not the court.
If Michael really was going to donate the money he could made an offer in the following way. I am sure the court would have accomadated this offer.
The the Court:
As the inheritor of Terri's trust fund, if this court finds by clear and convincing evidence that the petition to remove Terri''s feeding is granted, the inheritor of Terri's Trust fund shall pledge the fund to go toward charity.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 9:37 PM

Below is a reply I got from a doctor who submitted an affidavitt on behalf of Terri's life. I recieved it a couple of months ago. I not revealing the doctor's identity for privacy reasons. But, I can tell this was valid correspondence.

1. Terri was NOT a dying patient, and providing food and water
for her was part of normal care appropriate to her condition, it
was NOT heroic treatment. Without food and water, all of us
would die. Thus, Terri's cause of death was NOT her condition
(brain damage), but intentional dehydration, which could have
easily been prevented. If you killed your cat or dog by the
same kind of slow dehydration -- you would go to jail!
2. From the information and the video's that I had seen of
Terri, it is clear that she was not unconscious, and it appears
that she was able to follow some instructions and responded to
other people in the room -- thus whether her diagnosis was
correct is still a big question -- but it is completely false to
say that the autopsy confirmed ANY diagnosis except the fact
that there was significant brain damage and brain atrophy.
However, it is impossible to correlate the appearance of the

brain with the degree of functional impairment. Some patients
with even greater degrees of brain damage (either posthumousely
verified by autopsy or prospectively by MRI imaging) are awake
and responsive.
3. However, the important point is that id DOESN'T MATTER
whether she was truly in the "persistent vegetative state" or
not, it is perfectly clear that she was NOT DYING (not terminal)
and that providing food and water for her was ordinary care and
the intentional removal of food and water (without even ever
trying to find out if she could be fed by mouth) was clearly
intended to cause her death -- and thus, to put it simply, was
HOMICIDE. Even worse, it was a homicide committed with the
complicity of the medical profession and the judicial branch of
government.
4. You cannot "allow someone to die" who is not otherwise dying.
Thus this was NOT a case of "end of life" decision making
involving the removal of treatment which could only prolong the
process of dying, i.e."heroic" treatment -- it was a case of
willfully and intentionally "ending her life".

Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 6:37 PM

Michael has said on 2 occasions at public events that Terri was his personal property and she was to do with as he saw fit.

The first incident was when Michael appeared at the biased Terri Schiavo symposium in PA this past May.

Michael was approached by Brandi Swindell, a strong pro-life advocate.

Brandi Swindell of Generation Life went into the conference to ask a question of Michael Schiavo but was not recognized during the question time. Brandi approached Michael after the conference to ask him about statements he has made about Terri being his property. Michael told Brandi that “Terry is his property,” he said “I own her.” Brandi then asked him as he was standing next to his new wife, if he owned her also?

The second incident came when Michael appeared in Colorado. Linda Shepherd asked Michael about Terri's parents. Michael yelled at her too:

When he finished his tirade, with congressional candidate Paccione by his side, I raised my hand and said,"I'm the mother of a handicapped child. What about Terri's mother and father - weren't they her family too?"

Schiavo turned his full attention on me and with angry passion told me Terri's parents had lost their rights to her when she married him.(In other words, she was his property to be disposed of.)
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 6:27 PM

This is supported by the letter sent to Bob Schindler on August 20, 1997 by George Felos.

The written including the following important information:"In addition, I am also trying to gather information regarding what Theresa's wishes would be in this situation, if she were able to express them."

I wonder where Scott and Joan Schiavo were at this time and why Michael or Felos didn't seek them out?

This is a key question.

2 years later after the GAL investigation and report stating that Michael's claims were questionable, Scott and joan suddenly come forward.

Apparently Scott was elicited by George Felos by simple phone call.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 6:24 PM

The Great Bambakidis

Michael's book Pg. 203

"Each of the five doctors examined Terri individually. All but Dr. Greer allowed their examinations to be videotaped, and the unedited videotapes were provided to the court"

Pg. 208
"The judge tooka full month to evaluate all the doctor's testimonies and, as he did in the previous trial, he carefully reviewed the videotapes that accompanied all but Dr. Greer's presentation."

Michael Schiavo makes two separate remarks that indicate the Dr. Bambakidis videotaped his examination with Terri Schiavo.

However, in court Dr. Bambakidis testfied the following:

1 Q. But, in any event, it was not

2 videotaped?

3 A. It was not.

Dr. Bamabakidis testified he had no objection to his exam be videotaped. Ultimately it was not according to Bambakidis.

Obviously someone is lying! It's either Michael Schiavo or Dr. Bambakidis.

I think it is probably Dr. Bambakidis. Its clear from many of his answers that he was biased toward the Schindlers and was likely he was selected by Felos even though he was supposed to be a neutral doctor. Observe some of Bambakidis's troubling answers.

Q. Who initiated that first conversation?

3 A. Well, Mr. Felos contacted me.

4 Q. I see.

It seems Felos was contacting a neutral doctor.

22 wanted somebody for -- I believe his comment was

23 that they wanted somebody who worked for the

24 Cleveland Clinic.

25 Q. Who is they?
277

1 A. I don't know. You would have to ask

2 the judge.

A very troubling answer. Just who is "They"?

23 Q. And do you recall that I asked you at

24 the conclusion of the hearing if you wanted to go

25 back down to Hospice in the presence of the

389
1 parents?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you had to make your flight?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, the arrangement had been for Mr.

6 and Mrs. Schindler to be present during your

7 examination, correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And the way you knew that was that you

10 had a copy of my letterhead, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you could have called me, right?

13 A. Well, I could have -- my anticipation

14 when I went to Hospice was that they were there

15 and I fully intended to take a history from them.

16 Then it turned out that they had gone. Was I

17 supposed to call you at that time?

18 Q. After July 10th, after you had returned

19 to Cleveland, you could have taken a history from

20 them over the telephone, couldn't you?

21 A. I could have.

22 Q. And why didn't you call me to get their

23 phone number?

24 A. Well, you know -- I mean, I didn't know

25 what their particular perspective would have been

390

1 with regard to this whether they were able to or

2 not. Certainly if they expressed a desire to do

3 that I would have gladly done that.

4 Q. They did, they expressed a willingness

5 to be present during your exam?

6 A. Ms. Anderson, I mean, this is I could

7 have called them, they could have called me. I

8 would have been happy however it could have been

9 done to obtain a history from them.

Obviously Dr. Bamabakidis wasn't willing to accept the responsibility of what he was called to do.

It's also been reported that Dr. Bambakidis's brother knew Felos. Dr. Bambakidis's brother, Gust Bambakidis belonged to same organization that George Felos belonged to.

I think a videotaped examination was conducted. It probably provided proof to Terri's cognitivness which why is was sealed by Judge Greer and not shown in court.
Posted by: james at March 30, 2007 6:16 PM

Other Schindler Docs

10. Dr. Ralph Akenman - A psychiatrist from Ohio. Specializes in treatment of brain injured patients. Did not observe or examine Terri but says his therapy could possibly help her. Submitted her affidavit in March of 2005. Just a helpful affidavit in my opinion.

11. Dr. Beatrice Engstrand - A neurologist from New York. Did not examine Terri or her medical records. Did state that she could help Terri because of similar patients she has delt with. Disputes PVS. However, she did study under Dr. Plum, the pioneer doctor of the PVS state, so her conclusions may be credible. Urged for a PET scan and fMRI. Submitted affidavit in March of 2005.

12. Dr. Alyse Eytan - A psychairtrist from Chicago. Has followed the Teri Schiavo case in the news. Basically a doctor offering her expert opinion based what she has read and seen. Sounds like a moral POV affidavit. Submitted her affidiavit in March 2005.

13. Dr. Goldsmith - is a regular doctor. Has not examined Terri but has seen the video tape. Questionable on PVS. Believes his therapy could help Terri. Encourages further testing and therapy.

14. Dr. Carolyn Heron. Is a regular doctor from Chicago. Has followed the Teri Schiavo case in the news. Basically a doctor offering her expert opinion based what she has read and seen. Has seen the video tapes. Disputes PVS based on her expertise. Urged additonal testing.

15. Dr. David Hopper - A psychologist specializing in brain injury. Disputed PVS. Recommended further tests.

16. Dr. Lawrence Huntoon - A neurologist from New York. Did view the so called edited video clips. Disputes PVS based on his expertise and knowledge and on the video clips. Believed Terri to be MSC. Stood by his affidavit later by refuting the autopsy results.

17. Dr. Hyink - Speech Language Pathologist from Colarado. Did view the so called edited video clips. Offers her expert medical opinion based what she knows of the case. Urged communication therapy. This patholgist is Laura Shepherd's patholgist, the disabled daughter of Linda Shepherd.

18. Dr. Jill Joyce - Speech Language Pathologist. Did view the so called edited video clips. Disputes PVS based on her expertise and thevideo clips. Offers her expert medical opinion based what she knows of the case. Urges additional therapy.

19. Dr. Phillip Kennedy - A neurologist. Offers his expertise in the case. Urged Terri to undergo a fMRI.

20. Dr. Ricardo Senno. A regular doctor from Illinois - Offers his insight on what he has seen and his expert medical opinion. Only saw photos of Terri on the internet. Conclusions based on this sound weak. It more of moral stand he takes. Urged further testing.

21. Dr. Stanley Terman - A neurologist from California - Reviewed info on Terri including the Wolfson GAL Report. Recommends further testing such as fMRI.

22. Dr. Michael Uszler - A doctor from California. Questions testing done on Terri.

23. Dr. Richard Weidman - A doctor from Washington D.C. Disputes Terri is PVS based on what he ha seen and heard. Urged more testing.

24. Dr. Thomas Zabiega - A neurologist from Illinois. Viewed videos of Terri and other info. Also reviewed the audio recording of Terri. Said the following about the audio recording of Terri Schiavo: believe she is making verbalizations on the tape. In fact, around 45 seconds, when she is asked "How are you doing" she definitely changes her voice and says "good". She appears to say "yeah" several times... then at the end of the tape when she is asked "do your ears hurt" she definitely says "no". Even if none of the words were discernible, the fact that her voice changes during the tape to different questions suggests she is understanding what is being said to her. A patient in PVS does not respond and does not have any changes in verbal output. Disputed PVS. Urges for further testing.

25. Dr. Peter Morin - A neurologist from Maine. Studied info about the case. Raised many moral questions.

26. Dr. Peter Luca - A doctor from Michigan. Addresses his moral POV of view regarding Terri's situation.

27. Dr. Paul Harch - A doctor from Louisana. Sided with Dr. Neubeur to have Terri undergo HBOT treatment.

28. Dr. Peter Brunner - A speech patholgist from Florida. Urged Terri to undergo Vitalstim treatment.

29. Dr. David Coulter - A doctor from Boston. Urged more testing for Terri.

30. Dr. Kyle Lakas - A speech patholgist from Texas. Urged Terri to undergo Vitalstim tretment.

31. Dr. Rodney Dunaway - A neurologist from Texas. Viewed videos. Disputed PVS. Urged further testing.

32. Dr. George Isajiw - A doctor from Pennsylvania. Viewed videos. Disputed PVS. Urged further testing

33. Dr. Leonard Rybak - A doctor from Illnois. Viewed Videos. Disputed PVS. Conferred with Dr. Hammesfarh's diagnosis. Urged Further testing.

34. Dr. Myra Stinson - A speech patholgist from Florida. Viewed videos from 2002 trial and audio recordings of Terri. Disputes PVS. Urged for more swallowing tests.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 6:06 PM

The Best Schindler Doctors

1. Dr. Jacob Greene Ph. D. - A neurologist from Jacksonville, Florida. Submitted his affidavit in May of 2001. He examined her medical records and the video (from the 2000 trial) not to the so called edited ones. Disputes PVS based on the video and her medical records. Submitted another affidavit in February of 2005 in which he Believed she was MCS (became recently known) and recommended further tests. Believed she should have had an FMRI which Terri never received. Did not examine Terri. Greer threw his affidavit out and he was not given the chance to examine Terri. Greer ignored credible medical testimony and advise from credible medical sources (medical records and video tapes). He wasn't even disposed.

2. Dr. Alexander Gimon. - A PHd Neuropsychologist from Florida. Has studied the video clips presented at the October 2002 Medical Evidentiary Hearing. Gives an in dept analysis on each one of the videos. Also reviewed the audio recording. Disputes Terri is PVS. Offered his expert medical opinion based on the tapes and audio clip. Is credible testimony. Greer threw his affidavit out. He was not given the chance to examine Terri. Greer ignored credible medical testimony and advise from credible medical sources (video tapes and audio tapes). He wasn't even disposed.

3. Dr. Richard Neubauer - A specialist doctor from Florida. - Viewed the actual video tape (From 2000 trial).Recommended hyperbaric Therapy for Terri. Seems to be credible medical information. Greer did not consider. He was not given the chance to examine Terri. Submitted his affidavit in May of 2001. Submitted another affidavit in March of 2005 and urged that Terri be given a chance at HBOT.

4. Dr. William Russell - A retired neurologist from Florida - Has reviewed the medical records of Theresa Marie Schiavo, a videotape of her (From 2000 Trial), the trial testimony of Dr. Barnhill, the affidavits of Drs. Carpenter and Young and that of Bishop Larkin filed in her guardianship court file, the motion for rehearing, and various letters from Ms Schiavo?s family members. Disputes PVS. Believed Terri to be more aware than Ronald Reagan. Was not given the chance to examine her. Greer did not consider. Greer ignored credible medical testimony and advise from credible medical sources (medical records, video tapes, medical testimony, affidavits, and info from family members). Vouched for Dr. Hammesfahr. Submitted his affidavit in May of 2001.

5. Dr. Webber - A specialist doctor from Florida - Has looked at her medical records covering the period from 1991 to 1999. Also, has studied the videotape of Terri and her mother, apparently taped in 1999 or 2000. Disputes PVS. Not given the chance to examine Terri. Greer dismissed credible medical testimony and advise from credible medical sources (medical records and video tapes). He wasn't even disposed. Submitted his affidavit in May of 2001.

6. Dr. James Avery - A medical doctor from Florida - Observed Terri for 30 minutes. Questioned PVS diagnosis. Recommended swallowing tests. Greer ignored credible medical testimony from a credible medical source (observation). Submitted his affidavit in February of 2000.

7. Dr. Cheshire - A neurologist from Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida - Observed Terri for 90 minutes, Reviewed her medical records and the video tapes (not the edited ones). Disputes
PVS. Submitted a lengthy affidavit in March of 2000 and believed Terri was misdiagnosised and was MCS. Greer ignored medical testimony from credible medical sources (observation, medical records and video tapes).

8. Dr. John Young - A medical doctor from Florida. - Observed Terri for 30 minutes. Questioned PVS diagnosis. Recommended swallowing tests. Submitted his affidavit in February of 2000.

9. Dr. Sara Mele - A Ph.D. speech pathologist from Chicago - Reviewed her medical records along with all of her records about her therapy at Mediplex. Also reviewed the video tapes and audio recordings. Gives an in-dept analysis of the videos. Disputes PVS. Was not given the chance the to examine Terri. Greer ignored credible medical testimony from various sources.
Submitted her affidavit in 2004.
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 6:03 PM

Compelling Stories of people in similiar situations like Terri Schiavo.

Only one difference - They weren't starved and dehydrated to death.

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/1896.article

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/Carrots_Dont_Cry.asp

http://www.debramoretta.com/detailed-story.asp
Posted by: James at March 30, 2007 5:58 PM

It has been suggested that 9 out of 11 neurologists who examined Terri determined her to be in PVS state. This is a fallacy. There only 7 neurologists who examined Terri and deemed her PVS and most of those neurologists are questionable:

Dr. Garcia DeSousa
Dr. Thomas Harrison
Dr. James Barnhill
Dr. Jeffery Karp
Dr. Melvin Greer
Dr. Ronald Cranford
Dr. Peter Bambakidis

That is 7 neurologists.

Dr. Thomas Harrison - He only interpreted Terri's EEG. It is unknown if Dr. Harrison examined her. It is also unknown if Dr. Harrison ever examined Terri again.

Dr. James Barnhill - Was Felos's personal Death Doc. Examined Terri for about 1 hour the first time. Examined Terri the second time for about 10 minutes. Ordered no tests.

Dr. Jeffery Karp - Examined Terri for about 1 hour. Deemed her PVS. Never examined Terri again.

Dr. Ronald Cranford - Examined Terri for about 45 minutes. Very biased. Did very few tests except for some balloon tracking trials.

Dr. Melvin Greer - Examined Terri for about 30 minutes. Deemed her PVS. His examination seemed incompentent. Didn't remember the color of her eyes and couldn't answer some of his own examination questions.

Dr. Peter Bambakidis - Examined Terri for 30 minutes. Deemed her PVS. Although neutral, there is evidence to suggest that Bambakidis was selected by Felos and biased toward the Schindlers.

Total examination time with 7 neurologists:

About 5+ hours over a 10 year period.

Dr. DeSousa is about the only neurologist who can be deemed credible in examing Terri as he is probably the only neurolgist who examined the most over the years.

Suprisingly, Dr. Desousa was never asked to testify in the 2000 trial.

Now lets look at the Schindler's side:

Dr. Hammesfahr - Examined Terri for over 3 hours and deemed her MCS. Hammesfahr's examination was longer than Cranford, Greer, and Bambakidis combined. Hammesfahr's examination was much more extensive.

Dr. Cheshire - Observed but did not exam Terri for 90 minutes. Based on his observations and review of her medical records, and the video tapes, Terri was MCS.

Dr. Jacob Greer - Reviewed her medical records (or at least some of them) and the video tape from the 2000 trial. Deemed her MCS. The reactions shown on the video tape were not consitent with PVS.

Dr. Alexander Gimon - Did an extensive anlaysis of the 2002 video tapes. Deemed her MCS. Reactions on the video tapes not consistent with PVS. Also

Jess, actually I don't believe anything either way about you being baptized Catholic.

BTW, being baptized Catholic and actually practicing Catholicism, along with the constant re-conversion of the heart and rededication to Our Lord, are entirely different things.

And I think God does extend extra mercy on His children who are lost and hurting. Whether they accept that grace, however, is up to them.

Jess, it's true that Christians believe our reward does not come in this life, but the next. I don't understand why the notion that there is more than just this time on earth is so disturbing for you.

I'm sorry you are hurting.

If you ask me which one of my children is my favorite, I'd reply it's whichever one needs me most right then. I don't see why Our Father would not be the same way.

That's only half of it, but you can go to the other thread if you want to see the rest. I doubt you'll need to. lol

Sorry you guys, I know that's long.

Ok....God like a parents who needs maybe not fear but respect. If you believe in one thing the bible says you should believe in all of it. That is why I fear for my soul. I mean sometimes I think I can be vain and proud and that will send you straight to hell unless you confess. Although I am hesitent to confess until I feel truely repentant. And I don't know how long that will take. One of the things I pray most for myself is to be humble.

There is perfect contrition (sorry for your sins, because you offended God) and imperfect contrition (sorry because you don't want to go to Hell). Either is good enough to be forgiven.

And, I don't anyone who doesn't confess the same sin more than once... I have a particular cross that seems to make it into every single confession I make. But I am sorry, and I *do* try. And I reconcile with God when I sin.

Jess, do you believe that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross? Our righteousness is as filthy rags. There is nothing we can do to earn eternal life. That was what the point of His death on the cross was.
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8)

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures ... he was buried ... he rose again the third day according to the scriptures ... he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once" (1st Corinthians 15:3-6)

~ "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.'" (John 14:6) (emphasis added on the)

"But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12)

We Receive Christ Through Faith ~ "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Sorry, I pushed post before I completed my thought. It is a miserable feeling, thinking that you must keep working in order to keep your salvation. For what meaning would Jesus have died if you had to pay for your own sins? Indeed, our works show that we have faith, and without works our faith is dead, but no where in the Bible does it ever say that we must work to achieve salvation.
Jesus paid it all, we accept salvation as a gift. (hugs)

But what caused her collapse 15 years ago remained a mystery.

The autopsy and post-mortem investigation found no proof that she had an eating disorder, as was suspected at the time, Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin said.

It was her husband that claimed she had an eating disorder. To explain why she collapsed. To hide the fact that he choked her?

Here's another one, but there are many more. I hope you do not mind me posting them, as you probably have already read them. But I just felt that they might help give you some comfort.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jess,

The parable of the lost sheep was last Sunday's Gospel. I thought of all of you when I heard it. Then I placed each one of you on the altar, and imagined you with robes and crowns. Then I cried. Then I prayed. Very hard. Who knows. Maybe you are being searched for, even as we speak. Bleat a little louder. Come home Jess. Your Mother cries all the time and your Father is worried sick. Your whole family misses you. One sincere confession, and you'll be good as new. Mercy and Grace. For the asking.

Doug, I'm copying and pasting this again for you, so you won't miss it. I posted it in the last one, but it was already in the archives. Sorry it's so long.

I'm going to paste some of the info that a commenter (James) had posted regarding the Terri Schiavo case in the other thread about her. He is an expert on Terri's case, and I think that the information he posted is very important for everyone to read.

Bethany, I'm not saying that her husband was perfect,