What's wrong with the United Church of Christ? It's not like the worship an imaginary god-like creature who proports to be all-powerful and all-knowing is it? Oh, never mind...

Hey they took down the video. It says there is no video available.

Hal: Well, the UCC has it's imaginary God that thinks abortion is a good thing.

Indeed, Gary. It's taking the Lord's name in vain when we attribute the works of the devil to the Lord. God love you, Gary.

Is the good reverend an example of a left wing religious extremist?

"It's taking the Lord's name in vain when we attribute the works of the devil to the Lord."

Funny thing is, I'm sure they could say the exact same thing about you. Ain't religion grand?

Hi Hal.

"I'm sure they could say the exact same thing about you."

Indeed. Black is white, up is down, right is left, homology is cohomology, good is evil. The phrase "This is my body" is simultaneously used to convey the most self-giving act in all of human history as well as the most selfish. What can ya do? God love you, Hal.

Since WHEN does your god frown on abortion?

Abortion:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child. (Ergot is the arbortifacient used.)

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Hi Laura. Well, the question is, do I trust some guy from the internet's interpretation of the passages you quoted above or the magesteriums? Of course I go with the magesterium because scripture is difficult and as the person you quoted has shown us, one can be prove anything using scripture. So while it's a clever thing that he/she has done, it doesn't square with everything else in Christian tradition. One can't simply take some passages, rip them out of context, and absolutise them. I'm not accusing you of doing that, I'm just sayin. God love you, Laura.

I call guys like this "pretend pastors" because they don't even function as pastors. They just put a Rev before their name to fool some of the massa idiotica into respecting them.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are also pretend pastors.

Ugh, I think the rcrc types are even worse than planned parenthood. Planned Parenthood doesn't pretend to be religious, they freely admit they're humanist ideals.

Rcrc, on the other hand, tells people that what they're doing is not a sin. It would be like a church telling parishaners that adultery was a-ok in God's mind.

It's very dangerous and foolish doctrine.

Laura, God allows and even comands people of every age to be killed, but that doesn't change the fact that He is the author of life.

Oh yeah. You are correct, Lauren. In some senses, groups like RCRC and Catholics for a Free Choice are even more evil than PP. It breaks my heart. God love you, Lauren.

Religious people with different doctrines than yours are "evil" and "pretend pastors." Enjoy your one true faith. You can't imagine how silly you look from the outside looking in.

Hi Hal.

"You can't imagine how silly you look from the outside looking in."

No I can imagine it. If you can't laugh at yourself, well, you know the rest. God love you.

Well I gotta get home to the fam. God love ya'll.

Wouldn't really be faith if we didn't believe it would it, Hal?

"It is such sloppy journalism to have missed that. Googling the name indeed immediately draws Doubet-King's connection to PP."

Jill, I bet it was intentional.

Bobby, I like your attitude. You are always pleasant.

Lauren:
"Wouldn't really be faith if we didn't believe it would it, Hal?"

I don't know. I don't understand the whole concept to be honest with you. Apparently some people consider it a virtue to believe in things without evidence (or common sense). I must be missing the "god gene." So, "faith" is a good thing? Ok.

Hal, "common sense" tells us that there is a god of some sort involved in some way in our lives. I'm sure that you know that one of the markers of an early civilization was if it had some sort of belief in a higher being.

Aside from that, I think you've missed my point a bit. Alot of people become quite aghast when someone claims that their religion is the ONE TRUE RELIGION. I understand this reaction, but it makes little sense when we actually look to what Jesus taught. He said that the only way to salvation was through Him. If we claim to follow Him, yet disregard his teaching, are we really following Him?

I used to be terribly cynical, but something far stronger than "faith" pulled me out of my cynicism. Because of this, "faith" became much more than a general belief. I don't know how to explain this, but having the Holy Spirit work in your life really changes the way you look at things.

The best part? All you have to do is ask. You say you don't have the "faith gene", well maybe you just don't have the Holy Ghost. God says in luke 11:13

"13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him"

Earlier in the passage he shows us how to pray- Luke 11

When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3Give us day by day our daily bread.

4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

"

Ask for God's Holy Spirt to descend upon you and for It to give you wisdom and understanding.

I know you think this is foolish, but God has brought you here for some purpose. What hath a man if he gains the world, yet loses his soul?

I, too, will pray for your understanding and conversion.

Lauren, thanks for your kind suggestions. A few years ago, during a rough patch, a friend of mine sent me the Book of Mormon, and told me how it had helped him. Very nice gesture. We're friends to this day (I forgot about him when I earlier posted that I don't even know anyone who goes to Church).

I will, however, respectfully decline your invitation to ask God's Holy Spirit to descend upon me. It's just not me.

Maybe the "purpose" I was brought here for was to speak my message to you guys......Wouldn't that be ironic

Hal, may I ask why you don't want God's Spirit?

I don't know how to phrase it in a more "enlightened" way, because it really is a simple question (with very complicated answers!)

Were you in the unlikely situation of never having met someone who professed to follow Jesus, yet found the Word of God, would you still feel the same way? What I mean is, were in not for what man has done to religion, would you be more willing to accept God?

I'll try to answer as respectfully as you have asked.

It's such a foreign question from the outside. (How I got on the outside I have no idea) This is why I kept using Zeus as an example a few months ago with Hisman. If I asked you, "why don't you want to worship Zeus," what would you say? Would it help if I told you how much my belief in Zeus has enriched my life and made me a better person, parent, and citizen? You would never seriously entertain the idea, you just couldn't imagine thoroughly changing your worldview in such a way that would allow you to believe in something that to you has no reality at all. I know no one likes the analogly, but that is EXACTLY how I feel about Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. I understand why some believe, like you can unde(rstand why some believed in Zeus so very long ago. You could change it to Mohammad, or Budda, or whoever.)

Don't you think the sincere worship of Zeus by so many, as you look back through the ages, was a bit quaint, a bit primative, and bit *wrong?*

As certain as you are that there was never actually a god named Zeus who did all the great things so many people honestly believed he did, that is how certain I am that the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim God (or Gods) does not exist. Yes, I'm that certain.

So, why don't I want "God's Spirit?" Because there simply is no such thing. Sorry. It might bee kind of interesting if there was.

(and now I have to go see the kids, so I'm not ignoring you if I don't further engage today in this interesting discussion)

Hal,

Earlier today, JK made a joke about Scientology and I had to look it up to get something to throw back at her. I've read about scientology before, but decided to reread a little again.

I know what you mean about being on the outside looking in. I have an easier time with Zeus. I mean these people believe that space aliens are trapped and possessing people...it is too weird to even contemplate. And then I had the insight to realize that Christians, but especially Catholics, with their miracles, and Eucharist and stigmata and saints and visions, must sound truly crazy to those that don't understand...

I'm sure we look like superstitious,cannibalistic,
magical thinking freaks!

All I can say is that before I threw out Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and paganism, I researched them first. I honestly gave them a fair shot. I have always been drawn to the spiritual and mystical, so maybe that explains it, but I never just dismissed them before I took the time to try and understand them. Even Scientology!

Of course, you can never fully understand them until you live them, but I gave it a shot.

My point is, have you ever looked into Christianity with an open mind. Tried to come in from the outside for just a moment or two? Tried to walk in our shoes, so to speak, before you decided we were all fruit loops?

If not, then how can you be so sure that what you're throwing away, might not be the best thing that ever happened to you?

Great thinkers and intellectuals have come in and found the water fine...it's not only for fools and drunks.

Try seeing things through a childs eyes. You might be surprised to find out that Santa Claus isn't outside the realm of possibility. His real name was Nicholas.

Hal, I understand Quaint. I was a UU, before coming to God. I was quite disdainful of my fellow UU friend who decided to become Moravian. "How could she go back to that foolish, patriarchal (although moravians are pretty egalitarian) religion?!" I thought.

I *knew* that all the followers of whomever were foolish and childish. I believed there was probably some higher force, but it didn't give a flip about me.

My husband, on the other hand, was Pentecostal. Talk about QUAINT! I made it very clear to him, that though I loved him dearly, I would not be attending church with him. He told me I could do what I wanted, but he was going to a Pentecostal church. God bless him for standing his ground!

I did go to church with him a few times, and I did like the people and the pastor. Said they are all so misinformed, I thought. Gradually, my heart got a little softer for the Pentecostals, and though I didn't consider myself one, I did start going to church with my husband.

Around this time my pregnancy took a turn for the worst and I was hospitalized. I had very little to do for 7 weeks but knit and read and pray. So I did. During that time I began to see that though I had turned my back on God, he had not left me. I found comfort in that thought even through the terror of those days.

After my son was born, I thought little of God. Honestly, I thought little of anything. I was so caught up in the world of the nicu, nothing seemed to penetrate me.

When our little man finally came home, and we got back to "normal" I began to realize how much I called upon God. One night, while praying, I asked for God's wisdom and strength. I began shaking and laughing (unconciously) and praying in tongues. I had NEVER thought to do this, and in fact thought that it was very absurd. I can't explain all that happened that night, but it was very profound.

My entire life changed in that instant. I didn't "find God", he touched me and brought me out of Hell.

Anyways, this was longer than I really meant it to be, and I fear I still haven't represented everything as the miracle it really was. I was finally able to read scripture and garner knowledge. I was finally able to break through all of the chains that had tied me to my past. I was finally able to understand just what that "mean spirited" (i.e. did not back down from the Word) man who I once heard speak was really saying.

I finally had the "faith gene" that had been so long missing from my life. I have stood on the outside, and it was not a place where I would like to return. I found that as I stepped out in faith, God caught me and finally placed me where I could stand.

I didn't win a million dollars, or never fight, or become a perfect parent, but I had peace. For that I am thankful. Sometimes the quaint is the most profound.

Why do we hear nothing about seperation of church and state when clergy support abortion? We certainly do when clergy oppose abortion.

Why do we hear nothing about seperation of church and state when the Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are actively involving themselves in politics?

A double standard here perhaps?

"Maybe the "purpose" I was brought here for was to speak my message to you guys......Wouldn't that be ironic"

what is your message Hal? keep "choice" legal?

hal blathered:

"Religious people with different doctrines than yours are "evil" and "pretend pastors." Enjoy your one true faith. You can't imagine how silly you look from the outside looking in."

Pastor denotes a specific FUNCTION. Just because someone has a degree or some sort of certificate they had mailed to them for a few $ doesn't mean they are a pastor.

Pastor means shepherd. That old murderous fart isn't "shepherding" any congregation, he just sits on the board of a baby murdering group in the Chicago area for the purpose of making them seem as if they have some sort of religious credibility when promoting the violent slaughter of babies.

Get it now that I spelled it out for you?

Sharpton doesn't have a congregation he pastors. Neither does Jackson. They are not pastors and are not to be revered.

"Magesteriums."

Bobby - awesome word!

Doug

What makes your interpretation of the bible and of God any more correct than someone else's interpretation?
__________________________________________________

Lauren--I know these comments aren't addressed to me, but I'm responding to them anyway.

""common sense" tells us that there is a god of some sort involved in some way in our lives."

This is a value statement that expresses your views and beliefs of the world. This does not mean that they hold true for everyone else.

"Alot of people become quite aghast when someone claims that their religion is the ONE TRUE RELIGION."

Many religions have claimed that they are the true religion. How does one decide which of these claims is true?

Setting aside all denominational differences and political bias, I have one simple question...

Do you HONESTLY believe in your heart that Jesus Christ would approve of abortion?

Hi Enigma.

"Many religions have claimed that they are the true religion. How does one decide which of these claims is true?"

This is a good question, and a HUGE question. I don't want to really get too into it, though, just because it doesn't seem like the proper place to do so. But if you, or Hal, or Midnite, or anyone else is interested, I'd like to recommend the book "College Apologetics" by Anthony Alexander. It isn't completely exhaustive, but it gives a lot of good evidence based on reason, logic, and history to try and build the case for God, Jesus, and Catholicism starting from the beginning i.e. reasons to believe God exists using only reason. I don't want to pressure anyone or anything like that, but if you ever want a solid introduction from the "other" point of view, I think that is a great book. And if anyone has any suggestions for me (or the other "religious"), I'll read anything. I'm open to the truth, whatever it may be. So it's just an idea, take from it what you will. God love ya'll.

I double posted? Hmmm, now the real question is "do we take advice from a guy who can't even post correctly on a blog?"

Oh, one last thing. Before Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris became popular, probably the most famous atheist was Antony Flew (and probably the most scholarly atheist as far as atheism goes). He is a philosopher. Recently, though, he has converted from atheism to deism. Apparently he most convinced from the argument by design. I guess he goes through this argument and others in his new book "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" which comes out Nov. 1. This may be worth looking into. He has debated people like William Lane Craig who is THE man when it comes to debating God's existence. But anyway, Flew was very, very set in his intellectual understanding and arguments that God does not exist, but has now intellectually convinced himself otherwise. So maybe check that out too. I guess I wrote a lot more than I said I would. Oh well.

Hi Doug.

""Magesteriums."

Bobby - awesome word!"

Yeah, um, I actually meant that to be possessive, but seeing as how I don't know apostrophes or the English language functions, it didn't come out that way. Hmmm, probably shouldn't have told you that... would have seemed a lot cooler otherwise...Oh well, I'm a mathematician, that's my excuse for everything. God love you, Doug.

Zeke "Get it now that I spelled it out for you?"

No, you make no sense at all. Rev. Randall Doubet-King devotes his life to Christ and to the people of Chicago, and he gets your scorn? Apparently the Devil speaks through you.

(wow, it's easier then I thought being a religious warrior. All you have to do is profess you know what God wants and accuse anyone who disagrees of beingt "evil.")

Bobby,

I'd consider reading it if I had the time but unfortunately I do not. Life has gotten quite hectic lately.

I don't need an introduction from the "other point of view." I was raised Presbyterian. I knew the reasons and I knew the arguments. In the end, they simply weren't enough. They didn't make sense to me.

"Recently, though, he has converted from atheism to deism. Apparently he most convinced from the argument by design. I guess he goes through this argument and others in his new book "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" which comes out Nov. 1."

Conversion stories, whether they deal with atheists becoming believers or believes becoming atheists, do not provide convincing evidence that there is or is not a God. Simply because someone (albeit a famous someone who argued strenuously about the superiority of his view) has changed his mind and embraced a different belief does not mean that he has found the truth. I will keep an eye out for that book, however, always assuming that the hectic nature of my life settles down.

Hi Enigma. My hope is that Flew's new book isn't so much about HIS personal journey as it is the arguments and evidence that convinced him otherwise. So I hope it does provide convincing evidence.

"Simply because someone... has changed his mind and embraced a different belief does not mean that he has found the truth."

Yeah, I understand, certainly not. But perhaps he addresses some of the bigger, more convincing arguments for atheism. I don't know. It helps (at least me) to try and read the better scholars on all issues, but like you implied above, just because "I'm intellectually convinced" doesn't necessarily make it so. Truth is truth and it's a tough job to try and figure out what that is. Not sure what my point is. Ah well. God love you.

Bobby,

"My hope is that Flew's new book isn't so much about HIS personal journey as it is the arguments and evidence that convinced him otherwise."

It isn't always possible to separate those two. I know with me that I could tell you the logical reasons why I'm an atheist, but in truth those reasons are simply support. They had no bearing on my initial decision.

"But perhaps he addresses some of the bigger, more convincing arguments for atheism."

It wasn't an argument about the merits of atheism that convinced me that there wasn't a god.

Oops, I forgot to sign that.

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Enigma, I think you misunderstood what I meant by "common sense". By this I simply mean what the general concensus is within a group of people. In most every society, there is a theory on some type of higher being. Thus, it is "common sense" that there is a god of some sort.

Hope that clears up my meaning.

May I ask what is your main reason for being an atheist if not logical deduction?

Lauren,

That may be what you meant by common sense, but that is not the dictionary definition of what common sense is. Common sense does not refer to a general consensus among groups of people. Common sense is "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence." It has nothing to do with how many people believe a particular opinion.

Oh my later reasoning is extremely logical and rational. I've even studied the arguments so that I can support my position more effectively if challenged.

I still must admit, however, that my original reasoning was not entirely rational. Decisions born equally of pain, anger, and fear seldom are.

"normal native intelligence"

This is what I described.

Perhaps that is what you meant to describe but that is not how you described it. It still has nothing to do with the prevalence of a certain view in society.

Universality of ideas does not make them true in any case.

Hey Bobby,
I've never thought about "This is my Body" in that way before. Point to ponder. Thanks.

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