Mmm, classy.

What can you say to this? It's the pro-choice movement at its best.

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion."
— Christopher Reeve.

Quote from the home page of the Universalist/Unitarian church...

From Women Church:

WE BELIEVE:

Women are free moral agents with authority to take full responsibility for their lives. Women create policy; develop and provide feminist ministry and feminist theology; and act as ministers of sacramental life.

Women's spirituality and justice work are essential to being church.

Women are, and of right ought to be, the primary decision makers in matters of reproduction, sexuality and women's health.

(So basically, this is a church that worships sex?)

I'm surprised the church of Doug and the Church of Erin aren't listed...lol

Lets all remeber what Margret Sanger(Founder of PP) said. If you get the churches to sign on, especially in the minority neighborhoods, we can control the minortiy population and the white masses will follow. How true! How true!

And look who signed this statement. None of the Mainline Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, or Bible Churches signed onto it. Unless The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice counts. If you don't know them, check them out. They are very active in trying to get churches into supporting abortion, BPA, no parental notification for minors, "comprehensive sex-ed" and lots more!

Hey did you know that there is a Church of the Sponge Bob Square Pants?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3906687.stm
^ Seriously, check it out!

Maybe we should all switch to this religion to focus on being nice to one another and being creative with our imaginations :-)

Newsflash: "Poking around a little, I found most members of this group are long-standing allies of PP and its agenda, such as promoting comprehensive sex ed, fighting religious hospitals that do not want to distribute the morning-after pill, etc. This is apparently the usual list of suspects PP calls on when it wants to put a collar around abortion."

Planned Parenthood is asking its supporters to support them. hmmmm. Are we supposed to be surprised that the clergy supporting this clinic are Long-standing allies?" Aren't many of the protesters "long-standing critics of planned parenthood?"

This is what happens in a public dispute, your supports support and your critics criticize.

Still, you're left with the problem that you can support abortion (and the rest of the "agenda")while still being a good religious person and even an ordained minister. I guess there's no way to know which side God is on.....

Still, you're left with the problem that you can support abortion (and the rest of the "agenda")while still being a good religious person and even an ordained minister. I guess there's no way to know which side God is on.....

I call those people wolves in sheep's clothing.

Hey did you know that there is a Church of the Sponge Bob Square Pants?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3906687.stm
^ Seriously, check it out!
Maybe we should all switch to this religion to focus on being nice to one another and being creative with our imaginations :-)

oh my goodness! LOL Now, I love sponge bob, but I don't think I'd go that far!

Imagggiinnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaation!

Still, you're left with the problem that you can support abortion (and the rest of the "agenda")while still being a good religious person and even an ordained minister. I guess there's no way to know which side God is on.....

I seriously hope this is a joke. God makes it quite clear what side he's on. Because people become ordained by men in some made-up religion that they misnom as Christian doesn't imply anything bad about Christ- but everything bad about them.

What about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

RAmen!

By the way- pray and ask God to support child sacrifice, deadly sexual immorality, the abuse of women and children, the blastpheme of His name, ad nauseum.

Good luck with that.

Sure, PP, plenty of religions support murder. For example, ancient pagans practiced human sacrifice. Hey, actually, modern pagans do the same thing. They just call it "choice" now.

I'm starting to think that the only good to come out of Unitarian churches is converts to Christianity. Are Unitarians ever on the right side of anything?

"ordained by men in some made-up religion"

Finally, you're starting to see it my way.

By the way- pray and ask God to support child sacrifice, deadly sexual immorality, the abuse of women and children, the blastpheme of His name, ad nauseum.

Good luck with that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here 'ya go.
Your God LOVES abortion, child sacrifice, child abuse, and the murder of women and children:

Abortion:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 1 35:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 1 37:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.

I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.

Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.

Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.

Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.

Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

Child abuse:

Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.

I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other. “This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.

Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.

Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)

Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.

You're right, Laura! The Bible supports abortion! Every Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant interpretation of those verses is wrong. Let us admit our error and all convert to Laurism, because she knows what Jesus REALLY meant.

Anyway, Laura has shown that the Bible is really pro-abortion, therefore our pro-life beliefs must not be biblical, but instead must be scientific and based on objective evidence. If the Bible is not pro-life, then that's the only possible explanation! So we pro-lifers are on the side of science.

Your "pro-choice" beliefs are the religious ones, apparently. Haven't you ever heard of the separation of church and state? Stop trying to force your biblical view that it's OK to kill children on the rest of us!

By the way, Laura, provide a link to your copy and paste job next time. Nobody likes a plagiarist:

http://www.evilbible.com/god's%20not%20pro-life.htm

Give credit where credit is due. Unless you happen to be the webmaster of "evilbible.com" If that's the case, seek psychiatric help.

"If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die…Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21, 23). And he goes on in verse 32, "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

All these descriptions of God depict him as unwavering in retribution on evil, though he takes no delight in it, and also unwavering in love and encouragement toward those hearts are turned toward him. God's obvious desire is that sinners should repent and live. But there comes a point where evil is finally intolerable and wiped from off the earth.

We must see these terrible retributions in their historical setting. The spread of wickedness was so pervasive that immorality, degradation, and barbarity invaded every facet of life. Children were sacrificed to pagan gods. Male and female prostitution took place right in the temple as part of the religious rites. Idol worship was rife and the society wholly contaminated. This evil was contagious and God's people were in danger of being infected as well. God's awesome judgement was finally unleashed.

Today we have lost that black and white distinction between good and evil. Tolerance is presented as the great religious value. Indeed, tolerance of diversity is a high Christian value, but often today tolerance is taken to mean the virtue of accepting nearly every behavior under the sun. Anything goes - in the name of tolerance! A sweeping moral relativism is the result, and children grow up with fewer and fewer moral absolutes to guide them. We seldom hear the term sin anymore, but instead a dozen much milder words are employed. Surely the Lord will not tolerate this abomination to his holiness forever.

Nor do we like to accept the fact that when evil spreads, the innocent as well as the guilty are hurt. Let's be clear about this stricter and more communal view of justice in the Bible. The Canaanite pagan communities would surely intermarry with the Israelites, and God's people were in danger of succumbing to their sexual perversions and religious degradation. Finally, the danger became just too much

The entire Bible from beginning to end never deviates from this standard of justice as well as grace. Jesus is crystal clear about the punishment of evildoers, for on the day of judgement God will say to the evildoers, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Our society does not much care to hear about pain and punishment, and prefers the meek and mild Jesus of some contemporary writers. But the God of the New Testament is the changeless God of the ages.

http://www.ibs.org/bibles/about/9.php

All these descriptions of God depict him as unwavering in retribution on evil, though he takes no delight in it, and also unwavering in love and encouragement toward those hearts are turned toward him. God's obvious desire is that sinners should repent and live. But there comes a point where evil is finally intolerable and wiped from off the earth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do as I say or I'll kill you?
Your god sounds like a terrorist. I don't obey terrorists.

Your god sounds like a terrorist. I don't obey terrorists.

You don't obey anyone.

We should never have attacked Hitler. After all, who are we to judge. You really don't want to go around eliminating people just because their veiws are different than yours.

Tell me Laura, how did you feel on 9-11 when those buildings went down. Did you not for just a second wish that lightening would strike down every one of the men and women that caused that tragedy?

Would God not have been doing us a favor to have stepped in and cause all of those guys to have car crashes before they got on those planes?

And had the tragedy been avoided, would you then be complaining because God is violent?

These "ministers" are the ultimate apostates.

They have betrayed Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

What about all the priests who vastly misunderstood Jesus' statement- "Let the little children come unto me"

This is probably uncalled for, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

Yeah, Laura is against terrorism. Laura only supports infanticide. She's what you call a "cafeteria neo-pagan".

IT'S A YUMMY FETUS...

http://cgi.ebay.com/UNBORN-FETUS-SWEET-AND-SOUR-PORK_W0QQitemZ160157973518QQihZ006QQcategoryZ1469QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Seriously, that's one of the funniest things I've ever seen on ebay.

You find that funny Erin?

jasper, it's not actually a fetus. So yes. I do.

What happened to separation of church and state?
What in the world are abortion advocates doing calling on clergy to support them? Aren't these the very people who scream that clergy have no business speaking out against abortion, that this violates the separation of church and state. But when clergy speak out for abortion, why, that's just fine. Quite an interesting double standard wouldn't you say?

ll these descriptions of God depict him as unwavering in retribution on evil, though he takes no delight in it, and also unwavering in love and encouragement toward those hearts are turned toward him. God's obvious desire is that sinners should repent and live. But there comes a point where evil is finally intolerable and wiped from off the earth.

We must see these terrible retributions in their historical setting. The spread of wickedness was so pervasive that immorality, degradation, and barbarity invaded every facet of life. Children were sacrificed to pagan gods. Male and female prostitution took place right in the temple as part of the religious rites. Idol worship was rife and the society wholly contaminated. This evil was contagious and God's people were in danger of being infected as well. God's awesome judgement was finally unleashed.

Today we have lost that black and white distinction between good and evil. Tolerance is presented as the great religious value. Indeed, tolerance of diversity is a high Christian value, but often today tolerance is taken to mean the virtue of accepting nearly every behavior under the sun. Anything goes - in the name of tolerance! A sweeping moral relativism is the result, and children grow up with fewer and fewer moral absolutes to guide them. We seldom hear the term sin anymore, but instead a dozen much milder words are employed. Surely the Lord will not tolerate this abomination to his holiness forever.

Nor do we like to accept the fact that when evil spreads, the innocent as well as the guilty are hurt. Let's be clear about this stricter and more communal view of justice in the Bible. The Canaanite pagan communities would surely intermarry with the Israelites, and God's people were in danger of succumbing to their sexual perversions and religious degradation. Finally, the danger became just too much

The entire Bible from beginning to end never deviates from this standard of justice as well as grace. Jesus is crystal clear about the punishment of evildoers, for on the day of judgement God will say to the evildoers, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Our society does not much care to hear about pain and punishment, and prefers the meek and mild Jesus of some contemporary writers. But the God of the New Testament is the changeless God of the ages.

http://www.ibs.org/bibles/about/9.php

Posted by: mk at September 17, 2007 6:26 PM
............................
Honey, if the Bible didn't digress, there wouldn't have been the Protestant movement. Lead by RCC Bible scholars. Where do you find Christian 'truth'. The back of a Kellog's box/the internet?

What happened to separation of church and state?
What in the world are abortion advocates doing calling on clergy to support them? Aren't these the very people who scream that clergy have no business speaking out against abortion, that this violates the separation of church and state. But when clergy speak out for abortion, why, that's just fine. Quite an interesting double standard wouldn't you say?

Posted by: Mary at September 17, 2007 8:08 PM

Hmmm. You have a problem with those that have actually studied Christian Theology and don't find abortion as some klnd of sin and don't wish to mix their theological beliefs with law to influence the American Constitution less than our forefathers?
Get thee to history class.

Sally,

You are the one who needs to get yourself to a history class, and fast. The movement to legalize abortion used the argument of separation of church and state in an effort to silence religious opposition, especially from the Catholic church. By the way Sally, the Catholic Church was singled out by abortion advocates as a common enemy against which abortion supporters could rally, and against whom they could rally the American public. Its not that the Catholic Church opposed abortion any more than other religions, its that they had a hierarchy against whom abortion advocates could rally supporters. Very convenient. Something like how the KKK selected Jews and blacks as scapegoats to rally supporters to their cause. Having a scapegoat in common works wonders, as any hate group will tell you.
However, clergy speaking out for abortion was never deemed a violation of the separation of church and state.
I'm sure you would agree Sally that if it is deemed a violation of church/state seperation for clergy to speak against abortion, then it is no less a violation of church/state seperation for clergy to speak in support of abortion.
Perhaps you should remind abortion advocates of this.

"jasper, it's not actually a fetus. So yes. I do."

you have a twisted sense of humor.

Mary, excellent post. jasper, I agree with you.

AMERICA - Not a Christian Nation!

The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity:

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

More Jefferson:

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible?

Dunghill.

John Adams:

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

Also Adams:

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Here's Thomas Paine:

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals.The price of Liberty is constant vigilance. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention.Editor's Note: This page was first posted in 1995. Since then we've received volumes of mail from politically conservative Christians supplying us with quotes from public speeches made by the authors above. While most of these author politicians were diplomatic in their public expressions concerning religion, in their private conversations, voluminous writings and correspondences they expressed contrary beliefs.Which beliefs are true? If a politician appears one way in public and another in private, which do you think better represents their true beliefs? How do you reconcile the inflamatory writings above with various pro-Christian statements that the same men made in public over the course of their careers? Could it be called "politics," an attempt to appease Christians while ensuring a more rational government based on the separation of church and state? It certainly seems that way.In addition, the Editor does not recognize any religious intentions of the so-called "Founding Fathers" as relevant to discussions of political process today. As a descendent of Native Americans the editor understands that America had already been "found." The "Christian" beliefs of a handfull of landed, white, male aristocracy enslaving blacks and murdering Native Americans hold little credibility and should be dumped along with the notions of slavery we so wisely dispensed with on January 1, 1863.

Erin-

That's SOO weird! If I saw that in my plate at a restaurant I would totally be grossed out too.

ally,

You are the one who needs to get yourself to a history class, and fast. The movement to legalize abortion used the argument of separation of church and state in an effort to silence religious opposition, especially from the Catholic church. By the way Sally, the Catholic Church was singled out by abortion advocates as a common enemy against which abortion supporters could rally, and against whom they could rally the American public. Its not that the Catholic Church opposed abortion any more than other religions, its that they had a hierarchy against whom abortion advocates could rally supporters. Very convenient. Something like how the KKK selected Jews and blacks as scapegoats to rally supporters to their cause. Having a scapegoat in common works wonders, as any hate group will tell you.
However, clergy speaking out for abortion was never deemed a violation of the separation of church and state.
I'm sure you would agree Sally that if it is deemed a violation of church/state seperation for clergy to speak against abortion, then it is no less a violation of church/state seperation for clergy to speak in support of abortion.
Perhaps you should remind abortion advocates of this.

Posted by: Mary at September 17, 2007 9:19 PM

I would be trying to remind Christians of where they come from in this country. You don't know much about this and you make that evident.
There hasn't been a Catholic in my family since the Reformation. You know, those Catholic scholars that dared to tell the people that the world is actually round. And got themselves inquistioned for their intelligent honesty over RCC God dictatates? I need a history class? Sorry honey, you couln't make through kindergarten Sunday School with me.

Laura really should stop plagiarizing nonsense:

http://freethought.homestead.com/America.html

I ***love*** how the anti-theists say that the Founding Fathers were a bunch of anti-Christians... but those folks who owned slaves and killed the Native Americans? Why those were all Christians, of course! What a riot. Did not Thomas Jefferson own slaves?! I am incapable of rolling my eyes sufficiently to indicate the ridiculousness of these anti-theists.

Congratulations Sally, you've revealed that a very large, very complicated book called the Bible can have more than one interpretation.

I can understand it if people don't consider abortion to be a "sin". However, only an ignorant buffoon who knows nothing about science could argue that abortion is not homicide.

Sally,

I'll try to be nice here. You're not making any sense, nor are you addressing what I said in my post. You might want to try again.

John, you wrote: "only an ignorant buffoon who knows nothing about science could argue that abortion is not homicide."

Abortion is JUSTIFIABLE homicide.

Erin,
I'm sorry to hear about the precancerous cells. What day and time is surgery scheduled? I would like to keep you in my thoughts and prayers at that time, if it's okay with you.

Somg,One day abortion will be illegal.

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that is my religion."
? Christopher Reeve.

Quote from the home page of the Universalist/Unitarian church...

From Women Church:

WE BELIEVE:

Women are free moral agents with authority to take full responsibility for their lives. Women create policy; develop and provide feminist ministry and feminist theology; and act as ministers of sacramental life.

Women's spirituality and justice work are essential to being church.

Women are, and of right ought to be, the primary decision makers in matters of reproduction, sexuality and women's health.

(So basically, this is a church that worships sex?)

I'm surprised the church of Doug and the Church of Erin aren't listed...lol

MK, Christopher Reeve was a good guy.

I don't see what was said there as meaning that sex is worshipped. It's giving the opinion that women should be the ones to decide for themselves about (their own) sexuality.

Tell you what - I bet the Church of Erin would be very cool.

Myself, I like The Church of the Second Chance. I don't credit for making that one up, either.

Doug

Doug,

I never said Christopher Reeve was promoting sex. Just watered down, touchy feely, whatever feels good is good philosophy.

Oh Laura, must we really drag this old disproved theory up again?

I'm replying to your copy and paste with a copy and paste of my own.

***********************8

Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
______________________________________________________________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Laura loves copy and pastes! So I've got another one for her, Re: abortion and the Bible:

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The Bible and Abortion: The Biblical Basis for a Prolife Position
by Rich Deem
Introduction

The Bible declares that God values all human life and that He wants all people to come to repentance to inherit eternal life.1 The Bible explains that the entire life of a human - from the beginning to its natural end - is sacred, since God determines the length of those days.2 When does human life begin? This page will examine that question from a biblical perspective.
When does life begin?

Many Christians believe that the Bible is silent in regard to God's view on life before birth. Although the Bible does not specifically define when life begins, it does give us enough information to formulate a solid biblical position.
The sayings of Jesus

Jesus demonstrated the love of God for children often during His ministry. In one passage, Jesus took a child to him and sat with him. He said, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10). Jesus tells us not to despise or look down upon the least powerful and significant (by human standards) of humans. It is ironic that the most helpless humans are those inside the womb. Of all the risks that we must face in our lives, the most dangerous place we can be is in the womb, since fully one third of all human babies are aborted in this nation - over one million every year. Greater than 98% of all abortions are done for non-medical reasons.
Old Testament law

The Old Testament provides most of the information on God's view of life before birth, since it gives us the law. The law specifically addresses the issue of taking the life of a fetus in the book of Exodus:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)

Therefore, the law tells us that a man who induces an abortion or miscarriage is to be punished, indicating that God values life before birth. A verse from Hosea3 says that abortion is a punishment for sin, indicating God views it as bad. Likewise, God expressed His disgust for the Ammonites, who "ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead".4 When does this life begin?
Human life begins in the womb

The Bible tells us God is involved in our creation from the womb:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:13-16)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)

Human vs. animal

God distinguishes between human life and animal life, since the killing of animals has been allowed by God from as early as just after the fall.5 It would be helpful to first define what makes human life different from that of the animals. The Bible says that God created three kinds of creatures:

1. Creatures which possess bodies (Hebrew - basar, Greek - swma) only
2. Creatures which possess bodies and souls (Hebrew - nephesh, Greek - psuchay)
3. Creatures which possess bodies, souls, and spirits (Hebrew - ruach, Greek - pneuma)

Most of God's creatures possess bodies only. These creatures include the insects, worms, fish, etc. God defines the creatures possessing souls as being the birds, the whales, the predatory and domesticated land mammals, and human beings (Genesis 1:20-27). Creatures which possess a soul have the characteristics of having a mind, a will, and emotion. Most of us who have cats or dogs realize that these soulish creatures have all these character traits.

Therefore, the difference between human life and animal life is that, in addition to having a body and soul, we are endowed with a spirit, (1 Thessalonians 5:23), by which we can communicate with, love, and worship God. The Bible tells us that God forms this spirit within us,6 and we are endowed with a spirit before birth (Luke 1:15), which makes us fully human before we are born.
Prophets called from the womb

In addition, there are a number of great men of God (and Jesus) who were called to be God's servants from the womb:

Samson:

Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

Jesus (prophecy):

Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. (Isaiah 49:1)

And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), (Isaiah 49:5)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

Jeremiah:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

John the Baptist:

"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)

Paul:

But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15)

In addition, the Bible tells us the wicked are estranged or enemies of God from the womb:

The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. (Psalms 58:3)

What is murder?

All of the above verses tell us God considers us to be human before we are born, but they don't answer the question of when we actually become so. I propose there is a way to know what God considers the latest point in development at which we must consider a fetus to be a living human. Even before God gave Moses the law, when He gave Noah and his family all the animals for food (in addition to the plants), He told them, "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood" (Genesis 9:4). At the same time, God gave the law and penalty for murder (described as the shedding of "man's blood").7 Therefore, God considers blood to be the basis for life and the shedding of human blood, which results in death, to be murder. Science tells us that the heart of the human fetus begins to form 18 days after conception.8 There is a measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception.9 Since blood is flowing at this point, it is likely that blood formation begins well before day 21 (I could find no reference for the date at which blood formation begins). Therefore, this represents the latest date at which we must consider the fetus to be human (according to biblical standards), which is only 7-10 days after a women would expect to begin her menses. Most women have cycles that can vary by this amount, and therefore do not discover they are pregnant until after this point. For all practical purposes, from a biblical perspective, abortion at any point must be considered murder by Bible-believing Christians.
Final words

I did not write this article with the intent to condemn those who have aborted their babies or participated in decisions to do so. Praise be to God that He has provided a way for all of us to escape the condemnation we all rightfully deserve.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Related Pages Top of page

1. Abortion and the Early Christian Church
2. Early Church Fathers and Abortion
3. Is Abortion Biblical? by Casey Carmical from Casey's Critical Thinking
4. Science and Abortion- The Scientific Basis for a Prolife Position
5. D & X (Partial Birth) Abortions
6. Testimony of Gianna Jessen, Hearing on H.R. 4292, the "Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2000", House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, July 20, 2000
7. Testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN, Hearing on H.R. 4292, the "Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2000", House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, July 20, 2000

References Top of page

1. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
2. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:16)
3. Give them, O LORD-- what wilt Thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. (Hosea 9:14)
4. Thus says the LORD, "For three transgressions of the sons of Ammon and for four I will not revoke its punishment, Because they ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead In order to enlarge their borders." (Amos 1:13)
5. And Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; (Genesis 4:4)
6. The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zechariah 12:1)
7. "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man." (Genesis 9:6)
8. University of Pennsylvania web site: "http://www.med.upenn.edu/embryo_project/heart/heart.html"
9. "Life Before Birth" Life Magazine Educational Reprint 27, April 30, 1965, page 6.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html#n04

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Oooh, look...it uses many of the same references she used in HER argument!

I never said Christopher Reeve was promoting sex. Just watered down, touchy feely, whatever feels good is good philosophy.

MK, I don't think he meant whatever feels good is good. I think he was right in line with all or almost all the exceedingly common moral feelings that people have around the world.

Doug

Again Doug,

Whatever. Not going to argue with you. I was pointing out that these "So-called" churches have nothing to do with following God and have everything to do with following "self". Thus, their validity as Christian organizations is not justified and teie stance on abortion should not be put forward as a Christian tenet. Nothing more. Nothing less.

MK: I was pointing out that these "So-called" churches have nothing to do with following God and have everything to do with following "self". Thus, their validity as Christian organizations is not justified and teie stance on abortion should not be put forward as a Christian tenet. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Okay, your opinion.

"Somg,One day abortion will be illegal."

Maybe yes, maybe no. But everyone who wants one will still get one. What will you have accomplished?

The way to reduce abortions is to improve the technology of birth control. That will happen, probably in the next 10 to 15 years. People being people, there will still be some unwanted pregnancies. So, I assume they will also perfect the "abortion pill."

Hal, let them get their abortions then. If they break the law, they should go to prison with the rest off the murderers. I still don't understand why women weren't held accountable in the back ally days. They should have gotten prison time, not sympathy!

Heather, that brings up a problem, though - if you want those women sent to prison, what if they already have kids? Is it really good for kids to lock up their mom?

Doug

Yes Doug,

My opinion. And the Catholic Churches opinion. And any number of other legitimate Christian denominations opinion. Happy?

Hal,

Maybe yes, maybe no. But everyone who wants one will still get one. What will you have accomplished?

I doubt that 45 million illegal abortion will be performed. I doubt that 4000 woman daily will have an illegal abortion.

And what it will accomplish is that just like rape and murder, we are a society of human beings and not animals, and don't accept behaior from our citizens that says otherwise. We are a nation that takes responsibility for it's actions and a nation that takes care of and protects it weakest members. It will be on record that we are a noble nation. A caring nation. A CIVILIZED nation and not a hedonistic society. It will make me proud to put American before my name. That's what it will accomplish.

Doug, it should teach them to have some self control and responsibility. Doug, like it , or not, we have plenty of incarcerated women who are parents. Sorry. Murder is murder. You and I can't do it. W'ell go to the poky for life. Why should they be any different?

Doug, it should teach them to have some self control and responsibility. Doug, like it , or not, we have plenty of incarcerated women who are parents. Sorry. Murder is murder. You and I can't do it. W'ell go to the poky for life. Why should they be any different?

Because as of now abortion is not illegal, and because the kids deserve consideration, too - my opinion. There isn't any rational debate about them not being able to suffer, etc.

Having kids doesn't keep a woman out of jail, no, but we are thinking about all the pros and cons of abortion and possibly illegal abortion here, and it's part of the mix.

Doug

This ad of theirs is absolutely embarrasing! That are a lauging stock trying to embrace "religion".

I agree, Liza. They should be embarrassed.

SoMG said: "Abortion is JUSTIFIABLE homicide."

What further need is there for discussion? The pro-abort admits that abortion is homicide.

Hal -

"The way to reduce abortions is to improve the technology of birth control. That will happen, probably in the next 10 to 15 years. People being people, there will still be some unwanted pregnancies. So, I assume they will also perfect the "abortion pill."

Contraception have been improving year after year after year for decades. We have more and more and more different forms even. Care to explain why the numbers kept going up?

AGI = Guttmacher Institute
CDC = Center for disease control
***number of abortions per year

(AGI) (CDC)
1973 744,600 615,831
1974 898,600 763,476
1975 1,034,200 854,853
1976 1,179,300 988,267
1977 1,316,700 1,079,430
1978 1,409,600 1,157,776
1979 1,497,700 1,251,921
1980 1,553,900 1,297,606
1981 1,577,300 1,300,760
1982 1,573,900 1,303,980
1983 1,575,000 1,268,987
1984 1,577,200 1,333,521
1985 1,588,600 1,328,570
1986 1,574,000 1,328,112
1987 1,559,100 1,353,671
1988 1,590,800 1,371,285
1989 1,566,900 1,396,658
1990 1,608,600 1,429,577
1991 1,556,500 1,388,937
1992 1,528,900 1.359,145
1993 1,500,000 1,330,414
1994 1,431,000 1,267,415
1995 1,363,690 1,210,883
1996 1,365,730 1,221,585
1997 1,365,730 1,186,039
1998 1,365,730 884,273*
1999 1,365,730 861,789*
2000 1,312,990 857,475**
2001 1,303,000& 853,485**
2002 1,293,000&
2003 1,293,000&&
2004 1,293,000&&

&AGI estimate
&&NRLC base figure
*excludes NH, CA, AK, OK
**excludes NH, CA, AK

In 1998 when the CDC's number go down, that is because California (responsible for 17% of america's abortions according to the Guttmatcher institute) wasn't included in the numbers. And after 2000 the AGI only report "estimates".

BC keeps improving. Abortion numbers increase or stay the same. When, exactly, will the abortion numbers go down based on better contraception?

Oops...that didn't copy and paste very well. I had that saved and forgot to put in the website address I got it from...I will get it in just a minute....

Okay - Can't find the website I got it off of....

Does anyone know how to look up the history by day and not by - "3 weeks ago"... I went through alot of website that week!

BC keeps improving. Abortion numbers increase or stay the same. When, exactly, will the abortion numbers go down based on better contraception?

Valerie, I'd say the rate per person or given number of people is going down. There are more and more people every year.

Doug

Double standard indeed!

Abortion and Christianity have NOTHING to do with one another, get serious now..."If it talks like a duck"?

Jesus Christ is a Loving God, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". I'll save all of the "preaching" for the Word of God/NIV Bible to overtake your struggling hearts.

For all the fellow Christians out there; God is IN control...be THE Light in the lives of others!!! That is all we can do...until the enemy is bound! Rejoice in the days ahead!
Let God and Let God...He knows best, he created us all.