Jill: La Shawn Barber links to her Examiner piece, "End birthright citizenship." It questions whether the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause was intended for "babies of people who'd entered and remained in the country in defiance of U.S. law to become Americans simply because they were born on American soil." I question, too.

Me too - in this day and age of illegals entering the country.

Doug

I went to college with Naomi Wolf. Her strategy was to get boned by as many rich people as she could.

If one of your names was Scaife or Rockefeller or Beineke, you could have any part of Naomi.

Yikes... I read the generations for life blog and saw this:

"And on Monday, a 17-year-old girl was shot in the arm by a pellet from a BB gun fired from an SUV. The driver passed by once shouting obscenities, then drove by again and fired at the girl."

About the birthright thing...

I don't know how the US can justify this. My nieces were born in the US in the last few years. Their parents are Canadian-- the dad was "on loan" to the US Navy. They've moved back to Canada.

These two children have never really known the US, yet someday they can a voice in determining your president. That's crazy.

I've seen the story about the 17-year-old getting shot on two different right-to-life blogs.
I can't seem to find a single news story about it.

In California we have a manditory "use a gun, go to jail" law. Even if you use a fake gun in the commission of a crime, you get manditory prison time. Is it OK to shoot teenagers in Illinois?

Is anyone in Aurora bright enough to jot down a license plate number or operate a video camera? Can anyone produce a police report?

We gotta get that girl in England out of there and into the USA so she can have her baby and raise her and go to school here instead of in England where they will try to take her baby away from her within an hour after she is delivered.

Doug, my, my, we agree!

And Zeke... again, we agree!

Wow, Sundays are for miracles... :)

La Shawn Barber links to her Examiner piece, "End birthright citizenship." It questions whether the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause was intended for "babies of people who'd entered and remained in the country in defiance of U.S. law to become Americans simply because they were born on American soil." I question, too.

I haven't completely thought through this, but I'm inclined to agree.

Robert Heinlein suggested that citizenship be earned by service to the country (like military service, peace corps, civilian social service etc.). It makes sense that those who have sacrificed for a country will show greater care in determining its future through voting. There's a greater likelihood that people won't vote just to recieve welfare handouts (since they've worked for the country, not vice-versa). All of those that deningrate the service of our fighting men in Iraq wouldn't be able to pack congress with people that don't understand or appreciate service to the country and consequently attempt to abandon the mission or leave the troops without the resources they need to succeed or survive (since all citizens would have to have served in some fashion.) There would be leaders and citizens more conscientious about entering war and more inclined to support the troops. With voter turnout so low, it's obvious that people don't care about their citizenship.Then, again, I haven't considered the vast implications of such a policy. This is just a thought.

"I haven't completely thought through this, but I'm inclined to agree."

Oh, com'on Jacque, how can you be so heartless, these woman are just coming in illegally because they're starving and trying to find food.

Oh, com'on Jacque, how can you be so heartless, these woman are just coming in illegally because they're starving and trying to find food.

Oh, Jasper- Don't be petty and spiteful (and totally impertinent at that!). It's the Lord's Day, W.A.S.P.!

Nothing about reserving voting privileges to those that earn it is heartless. I am not denying people the right to work and feed themselves. That's your position, remember?

Your extreme bigotry toward the impoverished Mexican workers and my belief that decision-making should be reserved to those that make a stake/vested interest in the well-being of this nation are totally unrelated. Desperate people seeking WORK to feed their families deserve our help. Remember how I said I wouldn't artbitrarily extend voting rights? If you'll actually read what I said, it's all about voting and decision-making, not about working and surviving. You're just carrying over the previous debate because your true colors were shown and now you're just trying to be vindictive. You're only demonstrating further how spiteful and punitive you're shown yourself to be.

So I would let people work and eat, but not shape the leadership of this country. Voting is a privilege reserved for citizens. Working and surviving are a universal RIGHT.

Note: If I were a poor Mexican woman, I would assuredly give birth on American soil so my children would have the right to work in America. Unfortunately, this just gives us migrant American citizens that travel between Mexico and America with their non-citizen parents that identify more with Mexico than America. It's like renting vs. owning. Just because people work in America doesn't mean that they'll invest in the country's future like it's their own. So illegal immigrants are having babies in America (Shoot! I would too! I can't blame them.) but those children consider themselves Mexicans and not Americans. When it comes to determining American's best interest, this is a problem.

The solution is to allow people to work without citizenship or impossible immigration restrictions. Non-Americans have babies on American soil so that those children can have the right to stay and work in America, not because they want their children to be able to vote. If you remove the birthright citizenship, those American-born that care can apply and demonstrate proof of American birth and get citizenship (voting) rights. Those that don't care will not.

That's my proposal. Let people work here, reserve citizenship for those that jump through the hoops.

Check this out: abortion in the Philippines, where abortion is illegal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSMAN29804620070905?pageNumber=1

http://irishanddangerous.blogspot.com/

I found this link on one of those sites. My family gets all of its problems from the Irish side. I'm half irish, maybe that explains it.

Re: SoMG's article

Hmm... interesting how these women believe that abortion is wrong but go through one anyway because of their circumstances...

"http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSMAN29804620070905?pageNumber=2"

That made me feel sick. She's right, it would have been much better if they could use condoms.

Zeke, what about the woman in England? Where did you find that?

I don't think the majority of the Pro-life side is forced pregnancy but in cases of rape it basically is.

Leah, have you ever watched or read Angelas Ashes? Great book. There is a part where her husband is presuring her to do her Catholic duty as a wife and she says she doesn't care anymore if she goes to hell as long as she doesn't have anymore children. Read it it's really interesting in so many ways.

I really don´t understand the immigration problem in the US.

We need to get rid of quotas and sign up folks in their home countries and do fingerprints, background checks, or whatever and then welcome them. People are a resource. We won´t be overrun. Our economy will grow and change. Jill already pointed out that you could fit the world´s population into Texas.

If it is easy to come in as a guest worker, then folks won´t need to come in illegally and we can be a lot tougher on the illegals, and criminals. As crafty as politicians are, surely they can devise a scheme.

Bottom line, let honest workers in, no quotas. Keep criminals out.

I couldn't agree more with you hippie. This is a nation founded on immigration, immigration IS our nation. Remember what the Statue of Liberty says!

The most prolific abortionist is.... GOD!

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20051001/1243.html

"Up to 20 percent of recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage. However, when women were followed with serial serum human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) measurements, the actual miscarriage rate was found to be 31 percent."

God aborts thirty-one percent of all pregnancies. What a barbarian!

Jess, Frank McCourt was an english teacher at my high school alma mater (Stuyvesant). I never had him but several of my friends did and his teaching was legendary.

That's thirty-one percent of pregnancies IN THE USA.

If you include the Third World, the spontaneous abortion rate is (probably) higher.

SoMG, God doesn't dish out random abortions. That's just a crazy lie MEN made up to make women feel bad. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or any less of a woman, it just means your body was not ready to carry a pregnancy.

And abortion is a woman knowing she is not ready to carry a pregnancy. Or that is only the way I look at it. Just one opinion.

...now I'm a racist and a bigot because I want my government to inforce existing immigration laws. OK. ....I don't know what you mean by W.A.S.P....

Jess, you wrote: "God doesn't dish out random abortions. "

Yes, He does.

no he doesn't.

Heather, you think thirty-one percent of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion AGAINST God's will?

Somg, Miscarriage and abortion are different.

Miscarriage = spontaneous abortion. Abortion caused by God.

Regarding the quote of the day, as long as we're quoting Hitler, we may as well include: "Woman does not own her body. It belongs to God and to the State."

I you really believe the bible God really does do a lot of horrible things to innocent people though. Think of Job. not only did he screw this guy over but he randomly killed his entire innocent family. Then at the end of the story he gives him a new family. But his old family is still all dead.

Ahhhh, SoMG,

If you had been paying attention you'd realize that one of the greatest objections we have to abortion is that women and doctors are playing God.

Much the same way you play at being a decent human being.

The point is, God gets to call the shots. Much like when my seven year old asks for the thirtieth time in an hour why he can't have a hamster, and exasperated because he won't listen to reason, I say "Because I said so"...

31% of pregnancies end in miscarriage because God said so. I don't need to understand why. I don't need to approve. He gets to do this why? Because He's God...Duh!

Now you want God to answer to you? I'm sure if Bethany does one of her drawings and decides to rip it up, she doesn't have to call SoMG for approval. God gives life. God can take it away.
Basically He's the artist and He gets to determine the outcome of his paintings...

"I'm afraid sometimes
you'll play lonely games too,
games you can't win
because you'll play against you"

Dr. Seuss

SoMG: Regarding the quote of the day, as long as we're quoting Hitler, we may as well include: "Woman does not own her body. It belongs to God and to the State."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have many sinister Hitler quotes. Does this one sound eerily familiar?:

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

Adolph Hitler, My New World Order,
Proclamation to the German Nation
at Berlin, February 1, 1933

"31% of pregnancies end in miscarriage because God said so. I don't need to understand why. I don't need to approve. He gets to do this why? Because He's God...Duh!"

It makes me really sad to think that God would just randomly kill anyone.

Why would God randomly kill a fetus?

Just give your kid the hamster mk! Hamsters are smart, clean and helpful. You won't regret it!

What don't you people understand? God gave us free will over our choices in life. You allow someone to sexually USE your body. You become pregnant. Sperm entering your vagina just put you at risk for anything under the sun. Then you guys bi*ch at the government, because you want to kill your mistake. You didn't care much about your body to begin with.

Somg, the beauty of Choice! Would it bother you if I supported Paul Hill? I guess it is my choice.

Hi MK and Jess.

You allow someone to sexually USE your body.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No one has ever "used" my body except me.
Sex isn't "allowed" in my world, it's craved, cherished, and aggressively pursued.

Laura, that's good to hear. You can speak for yourself, but I'm talking about a lot of these women who put the cart before the horse. They allow men to use them as sex objects. Then they head off to the abortion clinic. Then they cry "AAAAAAHHHH, my body, my body!!" "Don't take away my right to choose! Well, why did she choose to have risky sex with him?

These people are harping on "Tell the government to stay out of my uterus" "Keep your laws off of my body." ........How many people have contracted HIV or STD's, and the government now has to foot the bill for your medical expenses. Do you want the government to "pull out?"

They allow men to use them as sex objects.

Well, why did she choose to have risky sex with him?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know of one women who "allowed" herself to be used as a sex object.
As for the second statement, you don't know WHY women choose to have sex?
On my planet, women have sex because they LIKE IT!

My good pal is dying from HIV. The government is paying for his medical expenses. His sexual promiscuity brought on his illness. It was his body, and it was his choice. Should he be asking the government to relinquish his benefits? The government didn't infect him, but the government is taking care of his outlandish medical bills. Doesn't this sound backwards to anyone?

I sure do know of women who were used for sex. They knew it too. A couple of them came a cryin about "Why doesn't he call me anymore?" "I love him." Well, when did you have sex? "On the first date."...........Oh. Forget it then. He never respected you to begin with.

The government didn't infect him, but the government is taking care of his outlandish medical bills. Doesn't this sound backwards to anyone?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fine. Then we don't send another dime to a Wefare mother? We don't treat smokers who get lung cancer? We don't treat fat people with heart disease or diabetes?
I know that I'm responsible for about 99% of the trouble I've experienced in my life - of course, that pretty much true for everybody else, too...

I am talking about these people who don't want the government's intervention. The day I see a smoker holding a sign that reads "Keep Your Laws Off Of My Lungs" Okay. They don't want any help. Don't ask for any when you get COPD.

Heather appears to be drunk again.

Somg, I think it's you. Don't you have anything to contribute other than that?

@Heather: I've read many editorials that have the "Keep your Laws Off my Lungs" theme to them in the St. Paul Pioneer Press, my local newspaper. You see, Minneapolis and St. Paul have smoking bans in all public restaurants and bars. This pisses off smokers because they feel they have the right to smoke where ever they please (particularly in bars...) and they feel that these bans on smoking are violating their rights.

Yeah. :)

Rae, we have the ban in my state too. However, it's a law now, so the smokers here have become more compliant.

I agree that many pi$$ed and moaned about it at first. Some were downright defiant. However, that passed after a few months. You still have a right to smoke, but you can only smoke in designated areas.

Ours still whine about it. Every month or so we get about 5-6 editorials whining about the ban.

I on the other hand like being able to go into restaurants and not having to gasp to breathe and then choke/cough on the smoke. I used to work in a restaurant in South Dakota that allowed smoking and gaaaawd...I think working there cut a few years off my life (as I always worked on the smoking side because as much as I hate smoking, the customers on that side were always nicer than the non-smoking folk).

Rae, I smoke once in a blue moon. I buy a pack, and they will sit here for a month. I may smoke two out of the pack, if that. I think the "clean air act" [ that's what they call it here ] is a good thing. I can already smell the difference in restaurants.

Somg, do you have a problem with a person drinking an occasional beer? My body, my liver, my choice. Do you only believe in choice on some issues and not others? BTW, drinking is legal as is abortion, so don't dig your hole any deeper. Okay?? *winks*

Somg, is drinking a moral wrong? Please elaborate. What if I wanted to drink myself into oblivion every night? Isn't that a personal decision? Isn't it my body? Why would you care? How convenient of you. Always avoiding the answer when you're on the hot seat.

Jess: I have never read that book, but I have heard of it. I'll look it up! It's been a while since I've read a good fiction book (barring, of course, Harry Potter--yeeah!)

Heather said: I'm talking about a lot of these women who put the cart before the horse. They allow men to use them as sex objects. Then they head off to the abortion clinic. Then they cry "AAAAAAHHHH, my body, my body!!" "Don't take away my right to choose! Well, why did she choose to have risky sex with him?

Wow, Heather. Either you have been in the same room as a lot of the women here during some rather personal moments, or you're being very judgmental and making HUGE assumptions. No one ALLOWS themselves to be used as a sexual object. In fact, a lot of women looking for casual sex think they're using the men just as much as the men think they're using the women. Women are not helpless things just lying on the bed and letting the man do his thing. We are in the 21st century, here. I like to think that when I'm getting into any sexual situation that I have as much control as my partner. I'm sure anyone here would agree.

@Rae and Heather: When I was in France, a law was passed against smoking in public places (except restaurants and bars--that provision goes into effect this coming February). There were a few weak protests, but I was surprised--for the number of smokers in France, the law was passed rather without event.

Heather said: Somg, is drinking a moral wrong?

I'm not SoMG, but...

No. I do not believe drinking to be a moral wrong. Nor smoking. My problem is when other people start getting hurt because of it, eg: drunken rages that result in physical abuse, or drunk driving, or secondhand smoke (which is why I'm okay with banning smoking in public places--just not banning smoking altogether). As long as someone goes into a situation knowing they could get hurt, that's okay--just don't hurt anyone else in the process.

Because I can smell smoke where I've set a fire, I'm going to say this before someone attacks me for it: my philosophy on abortion is COMPLETELY different, so no I would not regard sex/abortion in the same light.

Oops. That was me. Sorry.

which is why I'm okay with banning smoking in public places--just not banning smoking altogether
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fine with me.
How about we don't ban abortion, we just ban abortions performed in bars and restaurants?

Alright, Laura. That's okay with me. I suppose I have to compromise something. :)

Oh, well that sounds logical. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't ever seen an abortion performed at a bar or restaurant.

Laura, LOL!

Sorry everyone else, but when I read that had I been drinking milk it would have shot out of my nose....

Heather,
Your friend gets healthcare from the government? I was unaware you could get that.

Well, Somg is a hypocrite. He/it supports and promotes abortion. That's pro choice. Why do you bash my choice to have an occasional beer?

J Keller, yes. He is too ill to work, and the drugs he takes for his HIV are quite expensive. He's also been hospitalized numerous times for opportunistic infections. How else could he afford to live?

Heather, dear... SoMG only asked. No bashing happened.

Leah, He did say that I must be "drunk again."..Bashing!

I only asked because health insurance is so rarely handed out by US government. I'm surprised they would give it to someone who was so at risk of making claims.

*off topic* Is anyone watching 'Rock of Love' with Brett Michaels? ...Cheesy!

JKellar, yep. It's a disability check.

Is it on the E channel? Lots of cheesy shows seem to be on the E channel.

Sorry to harp on this, but I'm amazed that they would pay disability to someone with HIV/AIDS.

Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not trying to say you're lying, I'm just really amazed by this....for some odd reason...

EEEWWW, Scott Baio is 45 and single. Yes, and he will probably stay that way. Brett is looking for true love. Why does he keep kissing all of these girls on the mouth?

He's a rock star, that's what they do.

:-)

JKellar, who is paying for it then? What would I have to gain by lying? AIDS patients are quite ill. If you can't work, then how on earth are you going to survive? Who pays out the disability? SSD? It's the government! The taxpayers.

Anyone, feel free to jump in if I'm wrong.

I call it playful banter, Heather, but if you want to get offended and take it all personally, that's your prerogative.

Who is Eligible for Social Security Disability?
If you work long enough at a job, which is covered under the provisions of the Social Security Act, and become disabled, you are probably eligible for Social Security Disability benefits.

According to the Social Security Administration, a "disability" can be physical, or emotional, or some combination of both. In order to win benefits, you must have a disability severe enough to keep you from working in any regular paying job for at least 12 consecutive months.

The test for eligibility for Social Security Disability benefits is not whether you can go back to a job you have lost. It is not whether you have been able to find a job recently. The test is whether you are physically and emotionally CAPABLE of doing a job that is generally available in the national economy.

Furthermore, to obtain Social Security Disability benefits, you must have a doctor state that you are disabled. Your doctor's opinion should be supported by clinical findings and/or laboratory findings. Unfortunately, many genuinely disabling conditions are difficult to diagnose by objective testing. In cases like that, it is up to us to present your doctor's reports properly, and to convince the government that you deserve your Social Security Disability benefits.

Charles E. Binder puts it this way: "We take care of the government. You have enough to worry about."

America's Most Successful Social Security Disability Advocates?

There you go.

Leah Angelas Ashes is not fiction, it is his autobiography.

"You didn't care much about your body to begin with."

I care very much about my body. I care very much about who I have sex with and I don't consider the sex I have as being "risky" because I've been having sex for a year and I haven't got pregnant yet. Honest question, do you guys (um...the pro-lifers who were just talking about sex) view it as a chore that has to be done or do you really want it? You don't have to answer if it's too personal, I'll understand.

Jill: Doug, my, my, we agree!

And Zeke... again, we agree!

Wow, Sundays are for miracles... :)

Ha! Amazing, innit? The immigration situation is a big deal that's not going to go away, IMO. It's somewhat prominent now, although I see it as merely smoldering compared to what I think is coming.

The stage is set for some economic "bad times" to have a lot of repercussions in the social and cultural mood.

Doug

Jess,
I'm confused. Why did you link to my blog? Are you saying it's bad or good? This blog here seems to be a pro-life blog, yet many of the commenters appear to be pro-abortion.

I am strongly pro-life. If being pro-life is considered a "problem from the Irish side" then by golly, I am a pretty problematic.

If this comment is ofensive sorry, but just to add: I love sex. I love his body and how it's big and strong and hairy. I love feeling him inside of me and how it make my whole body tingle. I just really enjoy everything about it.

Jess, do you think I live in a cave? I have male friends. We talk. If you put yourself at risk for an unplanned pregnancy, you have also put yourself at risk for an STD. Boyfriends stray.

I think you must of misread the part where I said I wasn't accusing you of lying, I totally 100% believe what you have said is actually true.

It's tough enough when some people can't get disability and they've been hurt on the job. As you have stated, your friend brought his infliction upon himself per his promiscuous lifestyle, something totally unrelated to his job (unless he practices the world's oldest profession...)

Jess: Wow! I did not even know that. Even better--I prefer nonfiction (I'm boring that way--cheers to male psychology books!). I've heard it's a very profound book.

SoMG: The most prolific abortionist is.... GOD!

Interesting question - if there is an all-knowing deity, then it's already known who is going to abort, and when, and who's going to have miscarriages too.

If nothing else, going with the idea of gods or a god, it seems obvious that if they are all-powerful then they don't want every pregnancy to continue.

Doug

Jess, I appreciate your crash course in sex ed, but frankly I think that's TMI. Ya, I am a woman, and I know the feel of sex.

Rawr.

SoMG: Heather appears to be drunk again.

Heather: Somg, I think it's you.

HEY you two! Don't be hoggin' all the booze.

Woah, woah... I want in on the party!

Husbands can stray also. I believe my guy isn't going to cheat. I think we are very open with each other. I told him how I cheated on my last two boyfriends (please don't judge me, it really is a long and complicated story that involves death) and when I asked him if he ever cheated he said no. And told me if I ever cheated on him he wouldn't deal with it and just leave me. Because he respects himself I respect him and I haven't cheated and don't even want to. And he knows if he cheats on me there will be hell to pay.

Leah, I don't care to engage in "playful banter" with a creep who makes death threats. That's not for me. JK, I'm not mad, just sayin. If the man wanted to hold up a sign that read "Keep Your Laws Off Of My Penis." FINE! Just remember where your bread and butter is coming from now. If you despise our government that much, then don't ask them for a hand out.

My last boyfriend didn't care that I cheated on him. He said as long as he was with me he didn't care what I did. Maybe that's why it didn't work out. He was sort of spineless. I need a strong (in more ways then one) partner.

Rae: I always worked on the smoking side because as much as I hate smoking, the customers on that side were always nicer than the non-smoking folk.

Rae, that's funny, but it's also often my experience, too.

I don't smoke regularly, but will bum one here and there, ending up with 0 to 10 a week, I'd say.

I live in Ohio and my employer is headquartered in WV. Around the whole area, smoking bans have been coming in, with some exceptions - like casinos and "poker rooms" in bars, wherefrom many a state tax Dollar originates.

Some of the smaller towns have what I consider sensible rules, where if an establishment's primary operation is serving food, or is clearly a family-oriented place, then no smoking.

If it's a true tavern or the corner bar, then smoking is okay.

Doug

In some ways it's weird because he recently told me he respects me and he can be really critical so I know he meant it and now I feel compelled to keep his repect.

Death threats? I missed something. Well, whatever. It's your issue, not mine. I just thought you were overreacting and I hate to think of anyone's blood pressure being higher than necessary.

Jess... I like you...

Jess, I know you may not believe this, but I swear it on my daughter's life. "Husbands stray." Yes. I know! My gay pals had a few of them over to their house for a little extra curricular activity. One of them is now sick with HIV.

Hi Doug!

Jess, I know you may not believe this, but I swear it on my daughter's life. "Husbands stray." Yes. I know! My gay pals had a few of them over to their house for a little extra curricular activity. One of them is now sick with HIV.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You seem to hve about 830,000 friends, and not ONE of them is healthy, happy, or normal.
Why is that?

I know I don't have it, I've been tested. Also I required him to get tested to before we um, "did it". One of the best ways to keep from having sex is to talk about sex.
(Making out, half naked)
Him - you are so hot
Me - so have you ever had an HIV test?
Him - yeah, the last time I was in the hospital, it was negative.
Me - so how many girls have you slept with? And did you get any of them pregnant? Get any STDS? What would you do if I get pregnant? What...

I'm her friend and I'm happy and healthy. A complete nut case but happy and healthy : )

Leah, yes. Somg is nuts. He has an odd obsession with abortion. He claims to be a NP who performs abortions. He has made numerous death threats directed at Paul Hill's family. Paul Hill shot and killed abortionist, John Britton. He has been executed for this crime. He has also stated that he wants Shelly Shannon's family killed.

Define "normal"

Jess, give it time. Men like the thrill of the chase. Most guys are honest in saying so. Sorry. I see you 2 talk a lot. Ever talk about marriage?

Aren't there 1.3 million abortions annually? How could I NOT know women who have had abortions?

Since I'm away at school we won't even be seeing each other for at least a month. We talk on the phone almost every day. If we can do that, just talk, no sex, for a month then I guess the relationship is solid. I will take your advice and run the next time we meet. We're both runners, it will be interesting.

No! jk, no I know what you mean though thanks. He often brings up how he wants someone to settle down with, he's past the point of flings in his life so... I don't know I'll keep you posted.

I have 840,000 friends. I just added Jess.

Not all men are in for the thrill of the chase (thank God). But the really good ones are rare, aren't they? ((sigh...))

Jess, yes pro-lifers like sex, of course. I (we) believe that the proper place for sex is within marriage...for many reasons.

I don't know Jasper. it seems as though people don't take marriage seriously anymore.

Why thank God? If a guy can bang you without marriage, he will! Been there/done that/got the T-shirt and threw it out. *snaps fingers*

It's not always a guy thing, Heather. Because, you know, not all women who have sex outside of marriage are raped. It's our choice too.

"I don't know Jasper. it seems as though people don't take marriage seriously anymore."

I agree Jess, and it's not good, sex should be respected within marriage, it's a special thing you should only share with someone you love very much.

I'm not man bashing. My name is not Amanda Marcotte.........Thank God! There are good men. There are good women. There are also plenty of distrustful people out there. B Careful.

Oh, and if anyone says that that makes a woman loose or whatever... I swear...

Leah=not in the mood for that crap tonight.

helloooooooo jasper!

That kind of seems like prostitution. "Either marry me or no sex". What next? "Buy me this car or no sex!"

Cheers, Jess.

I think young people who choose to take the abstinence road a lot of the times rush into marriage so they can have sex without thinking what the responsibilities of being married are. They see it as the magical event in your life that suddenly makes sex okay.

Hi Heather...

Jess: "Either marry me or no sex". What next? "Buy me this car or no sex!"

No jess

" In regard to the physiological side of things, it's very dangerous for a young single woman to be sexually active. Because a teenage girl's reproductive system is still immature, she is much more susceptible to STDs. In fact, early sexual activity is the number one risk factor for cervical cancer, and the second is multiple sex partners. A girl's heart, like her body, is not designed to handle multiple sexual partners.

http://www.catholic.com/chastity/q1.asp

Jess, I give you a lot of credit for stickin around. I hope you keep coming back. You seem really open minded. I'm going to read jasper's article. Jess, I like you too!

@JK: That is soooo unfortunate that anyone would see that. I also think it's sad when people say "My virginity will be the greatest gift I can give to my husband."

What about your company? What about intimacy? What about love, for heaven's sake?

Sex is great, yeah--but love is so much better--love is the true gift that someone should bring to a marriage.

One of our priest got kicked out or something because he slept with a woman. Well he was like the "cool" priest and I really don't know what they did with him.

Hi Heather!

Hi Leah! I once found this website that said that women who were raped are unmarrageable (sp). Also women who were on anti depressents or over 30. It was a very sad site.

Jasper--your goal is to persuade members of the opposing side of your points of view, yes? You don't need to convince anyone who shares your beliefs, am I correct?

Let me tell you now, you will NOT accomplish that by citing biased sources from sites like catholic.com. If I wanted to prove a point to you and I would cite that because I know that you would take that seriously.

And let me ask: what about a man's body? Is a man's body designed for multiple partners?

Jess,

are you Catholic ?

Jess--

Oh my gosh... that is HORRIBLE!

Hi Doug!

Hi Heather, how's it going?

I'm working in a dirty old steel mill, in WV down by the Ohio River at the bottom of Ohio, a place that makes me think of Charles Dickens' description of "dark, satanic mills."

It had been shut down for years, but now some Ukrainians own it, and have gotten it going again, though on a comparitive shoestring.

OSHA is apparently giving them a break in the hope of more business in the area (not enforcing all safety and health regulations), and the smoke, soot, and heat are not to be believed.

We service electrical transformers, and this place is pretty high up there on the "Nasty" list.

I just have to survive through Thursday, then Friday morning I'm on a plane to the Georgia coast and the Party of all Parties.

Doug

Doug. Seriously. Stop bogarting all the parties.

Jasper, I was informed by someone on this site that I am NOT a Catholic. Don't tell that to my hardcore Catholic family though. Yeah we're SUPER Catholic. My Mom even works for our church doing office stuff. My family has been members of our congregation for over one hundred years and many of the priest are like family to us. And usually when new priest come over for missionary work my Mom and I take them out and show them around.

Leah,

If you have a problem with Catholic.com, your problem is with Jesus, not me.

I have no problem with catholic.com--but it is not an unbiased source.

You have no place to tell me where my problems lie--especially in accusing me of having problems with Jesus. I have an incredibly spiritual life and I feel very close to all aspects of God, especially Jesus. You have no right to say otherwise.

"Yeah we're SUPER Catholic"

Your kidding me Jess.....what are you not practicing your faith? why bother even being a Catholic?

Jesus won't get out of my life. He's always popping up, making me feel guilty for not visiting the elderly preist more. God I really do feel guilty about that. Would it really have killed me to spend an hour or two with them?

Guilt Jasper, guilt. Ok, I'm not super catholic but my family is.

Jess: I once found this website that said that women who were raped are un-marriageable. Also women who were on anti depressents or over 30. It was a very sad site.

Jess, it's a pleasure reading your posts.

I have to laugh - that site must have been put up by youngsters, or by somebody who has given up hope for themself, and by extention to everybody else that old or older.

Didn't get married myself until I was 41, and my wife was 38 at the time. That was 7.5 years ago, and it's been great.

On the "straying," I promised my wife I would not do it, and I haven't and I won't. If there is one thing I do, it's keep a promise.

Doug

I'm Sorry Leah, but you have to face the Truth, stop rejecting Jesus.

Jess:
Taking sexual love outside the context of marriage is contrary to the dignity of each person and of marriage. Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, lamented the decline in respect for marital love in his encyclical The Gospel of Life:

"Sexuality too is depersonalized and exploited, from being the sign, place and language of love, that is, of the gift of self and acceptance of another, in all the other’s richness as a person, it increasingly becomes the occasion and instrument for self-assertion and the selfish satisfaction of personal desires and instincts"

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0206.html

Doug. Seriously. Stop bogarting all the parties.

Leah, I'm having a mini one right now hee hee hee....

You, know, compared to many of the Popes we've had in the past I'm a saint.

Doug: Stop it--this is not fair. There you are having mini-parties and Party of all Parties... and I'm doing my psych homework. Will you take me with you to Georgia?

Jess,

I'm not here to condemn you.

Jasper--

STOP IT. Don't you DARE say that I reject Jesus--I embrace Jesus and love his philosophies and love the person and teacher he was. You do not know me, you know nothing about me. You have NO RIGHT and you have NO PLACE to say such a thing. If you are anything resembling a man, you will get off your high horse (where you certainly DO NOT belong) and apologize to me for you unfounded accusation.

Jess, okay. You talked about the FEELING of sex. That's where the devil puts us into a "trick bag." feels soooo good, right? This is why we have heartache, abortion, and STD's. Most of the time, it's just lust that we feel. We confuse this with love. Jess, would you be willing to try a little abstinence with this guy? If he loves you, then there is no need to worry. If he splits, you have your answer.

What if she doesn't want to practice abstinence?

Ok, I'll apolize for sounding harsh, I don't mean to disrespect you in any way, you're probably a very nice person.

But Leah, It is not unfounded, you believe in the legalized killing of human beings (unborn babies).

..Do you believe in the divinty of Jesus.

I am only making a suggestion. She doesn't have to take my advice.

Jess, I am not here to condem you either.

Jess,

Pope Alexander VI had 4 illegitimate children, one of them was Cesare Borgia.

Wonder how that vow of celibacy worked out for him?

Nice post heather @10:38 PM, right on.

I just realized that when I come home next month for my Grandma's birthday I'll have my period. So I guess I'll be abstient anyway : /

Ok I'm going to bed. Night all and sweet dreams!

*gives Jess an A for effort*

Ok, Jasper. I'll bite.

I believe in Jesus as an entity that I can pray to for strength (serenity, courage, and wisdom, to be precise). I believe he was one of the greatest teachers in the world (my personal role model, me being a future teacher). I believe his love inspired many, his teachings inspired many, and his life inspired many. I also believe many of his words to be misinterpreted by a great number of people, because it is my firm belief that Jesus preached only love.

But I do not believe he was the literal Son of God. Was he the son of God the same way I am the daughter of God and we are all the children of God? Absolutely--obviously.

I believe he was divine, but in a different way than you mean.

Thank you jasper. Goodnight Jess.

And yes, Jasper, saying that I reject Jesus is completely unfounded and is very personal to me.

"But I do not believe he was the literal Son of God."

That's the problem Leah. ....if Jesus is not the Son of God, then he is a fraud, a liar.... See, it can't be both ways, if you do not believe in the divinty of Jesus, then you are not a Christian. I'm sorry, but thats the Truth.

....and to all here, before I met my wife, I had pre-marital sex, I was a Catholic who didn't practice his faith at all, but I wish I should have.

I disagree, Jasper, and this is where your rigidity gets me. Why can you not accept my beliefs as mine? Why can you not even entertain the possibility that there is something outside of your narrow line of thought?

And I never claimed to be Christian, did I? Much like I don't identify with a political party, I do not identify with a religion. I call myself theist--I believe in God.

I believe in Jesus and his teachings and his wisdom. It is so rare to find someone so young with such incredible knowledge--someone so wise beyond their years. I have known one such person in my lifetime and he is going to be a teacher too. My perspective on Jesus is just as valid as yours or anyone else's.

jasper, That's how we live and learn. So many people think that we Catholics are self righteous, goody 2 shoes. That's simply not the case. I'd prefer to tell you that I have screwed up and been burned. I don't want anyone to feel that horrible pain. I speak from experience.

Some people are very self-righteous--and, yes, this includes some Catholics. But no one is saying anything about All Catholics.

"I disagree, Jasper, and this is where your rigidity gets me. Why can you not accept my beliefs as mine?"

Ok Leah, those are your beliefs.

"Why can you not even entertain the possibility that there is something outside of your narrow line of thought?"

Unbelievers almost always say he was a good man, not a bad man; that he was a great moral teacher, a sage, a philosopher, a moralist, and a prophet, not a criminal, not a man who deserved to be crucified. But a good man is the one thing he could not possibly have been according to simple common sense and logic. For he claimed to be God. He said, "Before Abraham was, I Am", thus speaking the word no Jew dares to speak because it is God's own private name, spoken by God himself to Moses at the burning bush. Jesus wanted everyone to believe that he was God. He wanted people to worship him. He claimed to forgive everyone's sins against everyone. (Who can do that but God, the One offended in every sin?)

Now what would we think of a person who went around making these claims today? Certainly not that he was a good man or a sage. There are only two possibilities: he either speaks the truth or not. If he speaks the truth, he is God and the case is closed. We must believe him and worship him. If he does not speak the truth, then he is not God but a mere man. But a mere man who wants you to worship him as God is not a good man. He is a very bad man indeed, either morally or intellectually. If he knows that he is not God, then he is morally bad, a liar trying deliberately to deceive you into blasphemy. If he does not know that he is not God, if he sincerely thinks he is God, then he is intellectually bad—in fact, insane.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/christ-divinity.htm

A great deal many Catholics are very honest about their faith and also about their own faults.

They do, though, have kind of a hard time differentiating the metaphorical from the literal. Jesus told Peter "upon this rock I will build my church". To many that would mean merely than Jesus had put Peter in charge of spreading around his teaching and converting believers after he had gone. The Catholics literally built the world's largest church *directly* on top of his remains.

*shrugs*

Here's my very own picture of it:
http://jk1003.deviantart.com/art/Walk-From-St-Peter-s-64544208

Okay, Jasper. Whatever. I don't know if you are trying to make me believe that Jesus was a bad man or that he was crazy or whatever. I just believe many of his words to be misinterpreted or (could it be possible???) misquoted? He, after all, did not write the gospels himself, did he?

But, who knows? I could be wrong. But you could be too. We'll find out someday, eh?

As a matter of fact, I believe God wants us to be agnostic--in fact, I'm sure of it:

"If God showed up to every person and proved his existence in each of their eyes' then there would be no faith. No trust. You don't 'trust' gravity, you know it's gonna work. God on the other hand needs a little more faith, a bit more trust, and allot more respect because of it. You can't take God for granted, you can't know he'll help you, you have to believe, to hope, to have faith. It is believed that in fact having faith in God brings you closer to Him... makes his influence more real, and allows you to truly understand what you need to know and feel. So instead of asking about the little simple stuff, you can just pray or meditate or whatever you're into."

I didn't say that, but a very wise person I have been blessed to know told me this. I find it very profound--very true.

At the risk of sounding pretentious--

Sexual pleasure most likely arose via evolution-the people that enjoyed sex the most had the most babies. Because of our more developed nervous system and the many complexities of evolutionary development, it seems to have evolved quite nicely. I mean, look at the anatomy. I like to brag that the female anatomy is much more complex than the males. Maybe God plays favorites.

It still makes me giggle to picture Satan pulling tricks out of bags and snickering. I know what you were getting at Heather but my mind went straight for the literal vision, and then it evolved into a South Park thing..

Slightly off-topic trivia fact re: PIP...

Humans and dolphins are the only animals to mate for pleasure.

Yeah, I heard about the dolphin thing.

When I think about it though, I can't help but think my puppy is an exception. Anything remotely shaped like a penis, and she starts humping it. She is particulary fond of pillows and this one stuffed toy we got that looks like 10 penii coming out from the center...her own personal phallic....plaything!

Regarding the woman in England whose child the social services want to remove from her custody at birth, can you say sexism?

Honestly, would they issue a permanent injunction against a father with no prior history of abuse?

It has sexism all over it. It is a double standard, women have to be better than in order to be good enough.

Everyone has flaws, mothers included.

If social services cares so much, they need to sign her up for sessions with a psychiatrist and double check their diagnoses and give her a proper hearing with legal representation, like you know, due process.

They are so confident in doubting her, they should be doubting their own methods.

The article doesn´t mention her legal options for appeal etc. That could be quite expensive. There must be some way out, you know like are available to celebrities and the rich, like expensive lawyers and good old fashioned bribery.

Heather,

I want you and others to hear this, but there are guys out there, teens, twenty somethings and others who are normal, straight and looking for marriage, who run from women who want sex outside of marriage. They are repelled by them. It makes sense to them. They honestly believe in waiting and tend to be some of the strongest, hardest working and disciplined people you will ever meet. Oh, and a lot of them are quite good looking.

Different strokes for different folks.

These guys are just as normal as people who don´t wait for marriage. They just have different priorities.

We say we celebrate diversity, but I am sure someone will deride these guys for making their decision to wait for marriage. Sometimes we are more tolerant of those whose decisions make us look good by comparison.

Jess,

Just give your kid the hamster mk! Hamsters are smart, clean and helpful. You won't regret it!

Hamsters might be smart, clean and helpful...but my son isn't!

I have over the last 27 years had 6 dogs, 2 rabbits, 11 hamsters, 2 ferrets, 4 gerbils, 2 cats, 2 lovebirds, numerous goldfish and a partridge in a pear tree...the animals are not the problem. The seven year old is!

Story:

Our first rabbit, Ponyboy (named after a character in the outsiders) was madly in love with our dog, Rosie. As a consequence, I could let the dogs out with rabbit and they would sit on the front lawn (not fenced in and on a busy street) for hours. The dogs never left the lawn (collies) and wherever Rosie went, so went Ponyboy. I would call them in, and all three would come...crazy.

I also had a hamster that you could take out into the yard and let run free and he always stayed on the woodchips...never ran away.

The cat would follow me (ducking behind trees and cars so we wouldn't see him) when I took the dogs for a walk. And he loved the hamster.

The point is, all of the animals got along with each other.

Well, the boys begged for ferrets. I gave in against my better judgment (mostly due to the smell). At the same time someone "gave" us two gerbils.

The boys were of the belief that ALL animals in our house would get along. One day the oldest who was about 10 at the time, let the gerbils out to "play" with the ferrets. He came down stares a few minutes later in tears. It seems one of the gerbils was missing an eye and the other was permanently missing!

I got out the dictionary and showed them the definition of "ferret"...

# hound or harry relentlessly
# hunt with ferrets
# black-footed ferret: musteline mammal of prairie regions of United States; nearly extinct
# domesticated albino variety of the European polecat bred for hunting rats and rabbits
# ferret out: search and discover through persistent investigation; "She ferreted out the truth"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Poor gerbils. Needless to say, the ferrets went bye-bye and we replaced the gerbils. Lucy and Ethel lived a long happy life.

However, this has led me to believe that 7 year olds are not quite ready to be responsible for a pet...maybe next year.

Jess,

Why would God randomly kill a fetus?

I think the key phrase here is randomly.

And the question you should really be asking is why would a mother kill her fetus. Or why do I care if God kills a fetus since I don't believe in Him, and believe that a fetus is not a person anyway.

hippie, thank you!! You put it into the very words I was looking for. Some men really don't want sex. It depends on the person!

hippie, dang. My post just dropped. Thank you for your excellent post!

I want you and others to hear this, but there are guys out there, teens, twenty somethings and others who are normal, straight and looking for marriage, who run from women who want sex outside of marriage. They are repelled by them. It makes sense to them. They honestly believe in waiting and tend to be some of the strongest, hardest working and disciplined people you will ever meet. Oh, and a lot of them are quite good looking.

Hippie, I agree! If men like this didn't exist, I wouldn't have ever met my husband.

Doug,

I don't smoke regularly, but will bum one here and there, ending up with 0 to 10 a week, I'd say.

Mooch! Cigarettes in Chicago are 7 dollars a pack!

I've known women to be the aggressors when it came to sex. The guy was like "No thanks." I also know a very smart woman who refuses to put out. She does not lack men who want to date her. I've talked to some of the guys about her. One said "The fascinating thing about her, is the fact that she's not "easy."

I agree wholeheartedly with hippie. There are many kinds of guys out there and saying "If a guy can get sex out of marriage--he'll take it" or whatever (something similar) is only perpetuating a negative stereotype we have of men in our society.

True, there are those guys who don't want marriage and want to be swingin' bachelors until they're of the age where women only want them for their money (kidding...), and there are those men who have different one night stands every day of the week and never call women afterwards.

But... what about the men we fall in love with? The ones who teach you about life? The ones who will stay up until 2 in the morning watching chick flicks with you and even willingly admit that they like them? The ones that cook for you? The ones that teach you how to dance? The ones that inspire you and change the very person you are? The ones that bring up marriage without you even dropping any hints about it, or whatever?

Are those men who will take what sex they can get and run? No. Are all the men that fall into that category going to wait until marriage to have sex? Hell no!

Cheers to what hippie said--let's embrace diversity. And men who can dance better than I can.

Bonobo chimps can be added to that list of dolphins and humans...they practically have sex in their sleep!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

MK--

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, if you are to keep a chimp, bonobos are the way to go. While regular chimps tend to get aggressive, bonobos are more likely to try to mate with you ;)

PIP,

While regular chimps tend to get aggressive, bonobos are more likely to try to mate with you ;)

Sounds like a great topic for a post on Jill's site! lol

When my dog Lady was getting up there in age, she made friends with the cat we had at the time, Sammy. They used to always eat together, him standing under her between her legs, it was really cute to watch. There was a stray cat that looked EXACTLY like Sammy, you could hardly tell the difference. Lady knew the difference and she would always bark and growl at the stray cat and not at Sammy.

All my pets have been extremely intelligent (I guess I rub off on them....hehe)

MK

haha! That would be an entertaining post!

But seriously, does anybody know how to torrent? I'm on a mac, and don't know how to do it. Then we can do that post about Weeds.

Doug: Stop it--this is not fair. There you are having mini-parties and Party of all Parties... and I'm doing my psych homework. Will you take me with you to Georgia?

Leah, reading this board is a good measure of "Psych homework" as well.

On taking you to Georgia, when I get right down to it, it might raise some eyebrows. So, uh....

Doug

"I don't smoke regularly, but will bum one here and there, ending up with 0 to 10 a week, I'd say."

MK: Mooch! Cigarettes in Chicago are 7 dollars a pack!

Good grief, MK, and how much of that is tax?

I remember people saying, "I'm going to quit when it gets to fifty cents a pack."

Used to take cartons to Canada for the guys I worked with up there, since cigarettes were much more expensive up there at the time. 1991 - a carton of Marlboro Lights was $11.15.

Doug

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, if you are to keep a chimp, bonobos are the way to go. While regular chimps tend to get aggressive, bonobos are more likely to try to mate with you ;)

PIP, you appear to be saying that some of my past girlfriends were chimps and some were bonobos.

"Bonobos" backwards is "sobonob." Cool.

Doug