It looks like Amanda didn't exactly get great feedback about her comments on her own blog. She's over reacting.

Prochoicer Zube Girl loves this song. She blogged about it here.

My biggest problem with Ms. Marcottes take on the song, and what made me send a flag up to Jill, was the "suck it up" attitude shown towards fathers.

I can't imagine another situation where we would tell a father who's child was just killed to "suck it up". Marcotte goes so far as to say that any man who doesn't do the "right" thing m and support the abortion at least 98% is a "bad person with control issues".

I can tell you from much personal experience that men are affected when they lose a child prenataly. I think it some ways it's probably even harder for them because they never get to experience actually being pregnant.

As for the song itself, I liked it when it came out and still do. It's very sad, but also very true and I think that it is important to realize that there are more people affected by abortion than just the mother.

I wonder if Amanda has ever aborted. She sure gets abnormally defensive about anything that has to do with abortion.

lauren, of course. I know a lot of men who had no choice in fatherhood. Another PC line "Abortion is between a woman and her doctor." Really? What about fathers, siblings, grandparents? They don't count. I know some "would be" grandparents who have been devestated by abortion. I had an 80 year old man tell me "My daughter had an abortion." "That stupid, son of a b**** husband of hers talked her into it."

I hate the video- it doesn't reflect the realness of the song or the depth of emotion.
It was shallow and fake. Watching women and boyfriends go into clinics for abortions, they are typically quiet and subdued, in pajama pants of very comfy clothes, apprehensive and not talkative.

The song doesn't indicate that they go strolling hand and hand, swinging their arms, go grab a pre-abortion eskimocha at 6:30 and have lots of pronounced chit-chat. Go to a hospital (for crying out loud!) where she stands in the hall, rather than your typical dreary, cold, stand-alone clinic in an urban area- with security guards. By the way, an underage girl hiding an abortion couldn't get one at a hospital like that. The song indicated that "she was not fine" meant that she was an emotional wreck and finally, they "broke down" in front of their parents because they were tired of lying. These are post-abortive high schoolers! I think she was more depressed than slapping her boyfriend around.

This isn't the original video is it? It's been a long time, but I seem to remember it just being Ben Folds singing and drowning in water and the girlfriend really upset.

Ok, I just watched the video, and no it's not the one I remember.

Here's a link to the original. Not good, but substantially better.

On a different note: This chick uses the F word in front of her mom? Someone should smack her!

Jacqueline, you should see how mean she looks in her blog photo.

If you read some of Amanda's responses to her bloggers, her real issue seems to be with men. We call men misogynists. What do you call a woman? She seems to be a man hater!!

Ah, yes that's the one I remember!

I don't think it's really "man-hating" as much as it's "man-resenting" does that make sense?

lauren, I agree. Look at some of the responses she received on her blog. Look at her responses. When people disagree with her, she gets defensive, and she starts cursing. She really doesn't think that we should feel bad for men in a situation like this. She says "It's the woman who is getting scrapped." "Am I supposed to feel sorry for the pric*?"...something on that order.

should say scraped....[[above post]]

“On a different note: This chick uses the F word in front of her mom? Someone should smack her!”

I don’t think women should use the F-word. Years ago, I dated a girl who used it more often than any guy I knew (she was a pretty conservative person otherwise). It always made me cringe.

Yeah, I think the general idea is that since a man isn't the one who has to have the procedure, he can't feel express feeling upset.

I can't imagine someone telling me "I'm going to kill your son, and if you say anything other than "ok", you're a monster." It's insane!

Did you see where Amanda wrote :Abortion is all about HER in the end. LOL! So, nobody else is supposed to be upset? Selfish! At least Amanda does admit that "Abortion is not an easy thing to go through." I wish I could ask her why she feels this way. She's promoting choice, is she not?

I don't understand the point of this post? Can someone help me out?

JM, are you familiar with the song "Brick" by Ben Folds Five?

It's from a man's prospective after his girlfriend has an abortion.

Marcotte was basically saying that the man had no right to express these feelings and that he should "suck it up".

What do you think about the issue? Was Ben Folds "mean" or justified in feeling the way he did after the abortion? Should men have a say in abortion?

http://www.alternet.org/sex/60666/?page=2

Here's the link to the Alternet article referenced by Amanda. It is talking about how men deal with abortions ect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9rWFZesV8s

Totally off topic, but fun. =)

Okay, I have a completely unrelated question to ask of everyone.

Does anyone know what is wrong with a water heater when it starts giving off a horrible smell?

It's either somethings wrong with my water heater, or a giant rat has crawled into somewhere and died.

Uh, I don't know...but my water heater burst into flames when I was a little girl.

Is it a gas heater?

*stares at Joe* I am sounding the sexist alert. Women can't curse! It's fine for guys to, though!

I slip up in front of my parents on occasion, but I always apologize when it happens. I'm usually ranting and it just kind of happens.

Anyhow, I love Ben Folds. I've never read too deeply into Brick, mainly because it isn't one of my favorites. Anyone heard "The Last Polka"? Amazing!

Erin, I don't think that it's flattering for either sex to curse.

*shrugs* The concept of 'bad words' is silly to me. People give words their meaning. In my mind, cursing is simply a way to add emotion into a phrase. Honestly, say you stub your toe really badly. Which will more adequately express how you feel? Yelling "poop!" or something perhaps a little more vehement? They're just words. It's not like they have any power beyond that which you give them.

No, but society has given meaning to words. I'm not claiming to have a mouth of ivory, but I don't think it's appropriate for either sex to lace unnecessary expletives throughout their speech.

It's one thing to say a four letter word when you stub your toe, and quite another to say "Yeah, I went to the f-in store and got an f-in apple."

In general, I believe we should speak respectfully to one another. Littering speech with cuss words serves no real purpose but to make the speaker sound "harsh".

Again, I have been guilty of this, and Jacque can tell you that when I get going there are certain words that pour out. However, overall, I don't think this a good practice.

"Does anyone know what is wrong with a water heater when it starts giving off a horrible smell?"

If it's a gas heater, you may want to call the gas-company. Is it a gas smell. Do you have hot-water from the faucet? .....Is the pilot lit? ....Is it like a sulfer smell.

Lauren, look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqrEw901KXE

Guiliani calls a man crazy, in need of psychiatric help for owning ferrets.

Actually, in the song it doesn't seem to be the death of the child he's mourning so much as the fact that the abortion destroyed the girl, and turned their relationship into nothing but a living reminder of pain, but he can't leave her because to do so would be to abandon her to a pain they created together.

The chorus -- which according to the Wikipedia article was written by a different man -- actually seems to me to be a bit off-kilter from the tone of the rest of the song.

Jacque- HAHAHAHA

"Your obsession with little weasles is disturbing!"

What in the world could have the ferret man have said?

Jacque, lauren, that ferret guy had been evidently pestering Rudy for a long time. Yeah, Rudy lost it, but it wasn't like the video makes it seem -- as if Rudy went off on some random caller. They had a history, and that ferret guy is a nut.

I don�t think women should use the F-word. Years ago, I dated a girl who used it more often than any guy I knew (she was a pretty conservative person otherwise). It always made me cringe.

It's a radical feminist thing. They seem to be trying to prove that they can be as piggish as some men are.

I thought abortion was a miracle restorative, that women were washed over with nothing but waves of relief, that it was so totally liberating and empowering.

You'd think there'd be more songs reflecting that....

*rolls eyes* Tony and Joe, get together and rant about how women should all be submissive little angels who never experience the extent of powerful emotions that cursing invokes. Of course! I should always be quiet and reserved and never say things I actually think! How silly of me to want to live in the liberated 21st century!

You guys were born in the wrong century.

Lauren: Was Ben Folds "mean" or justified in feeling the way he did after the abortion? Should men have a say in abortion?

I'd say his feelings aren't "justified" or not, then simply are. Looks like the girl's not right for him.

Doug

JK - Jasper is right - you gotta watch out for gas leaks.

Alternately, it may be something getting hot that's not supposed to - wiring, insulation, etc. High odds it means that something is wrong.

Doug

Amanda Marcotte, among other things is an anti-Christian, anti-Catholic, pro-abortion zealot. Some of her ramblings on Pandagon, like this example on Catholics and the Plan B pill:

"Q: What if Mary had taken Plan B after the Lord filled her with his hot, white, sticky Holy Spirit?

A: You'd have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology."
by a leading DEMOCRAT running for president. John Edwards...

A: You'd have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology."

Ha. Love it!

It's actually an electric water heater, and the smell is more of a rotting kind of smell, that's why I think it could possibly be a dead rodent.....it really stinks, I'm exhausting my supply of febreze trying to cover it up.

JK, sounds like a dead mouse to me.

Avast Ye Rodents!

I like Ben Folds, and I like this song. I was never a big enough fan to look into many of their lyrics.

Wow. It kind of makes me love them so much more. Not necessarily because of what we are debating, just that the subject matter makes it more emotional and deeper. But then again I've been emotional today for no reason. I felt myself choking up to this episode that I have on DVD and have watched tons of times! It was sort of ridiculous.

Oh and guys--if you are going to make a blanket statement, like "I don't think girls...."
Please remember that if it something behavioralistic it would be a teensy bit sexist to want a behavior out of women but not expect the same for men.
How about, "I don't think people should curse" instead? huh?

And I totally want you to do a post on the 2 episodes of Weeds, season 2, involving Silas' girlfriend's abortion.

There are some issues in them.

However, it is hard to find any videos that either splice the two storylines together without the rest of the drama there (I mean, you dont' have to watch the whole episode to get the storyline)...or even accessable back to back episodes you can thumb through!

"Q: What if Mary had taken Plan B after the Lord filled her with his hot, white, sticky Holy Spirit?
A: You'd have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology."
Jasper: by a leading DEMOCRAT running for president. John Edwards...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WRONG!
John Edwards never said that, and he FIRED the woman who did.
You seem to misquote an awful lot.

Laura, I was just skimming the posts. I thought I was the only addicted psycho up at this hour E.T. ....Oh, you're on Pacific time, right?..............Laura, just teasing:}

Yes, Laura, I know how you feel.

Pip, you're here too? It's 4:11 AM here.

It's 3:11 here.

Yeah, I'm up late because I went to a party at the German House tonight. I met so many cool people (but most of them I had already met before). Time just sucks you in, I guess.

I got home an hour ago and am trying to sober up a little bit before I take my sleeping medication...otherwise it might be a sight.

Psst...my roommate has brought her boyfriend to spend the night. I wonder if they are "sleeping" together...so awkward here in the other room. My other roommate and I are talking in hush hush voices and it's a lot of fun.

I was cussed at in the blog about the World Clock. And by a girl!

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/09/world_abortion.html

Just because it is super late, I am going to whine here. Feel free to delete this mods if you want to.

I wanna boyfriend!

Just to put this out there,

cussing is not the end of the world.

Its like elementary school, when you hear someone say a cuss word and you're like "aaaaahhhhhhhh.......i'm TELLING!!!!"

*snicker*

BTW, I think my strange smell might have disappeared. Either that or I've gotten so used to it I can't differentiate it anymore...

"WRONG!
John Edwards never said that, and he FIRED the woman who did.
You seem to misquote an awful lot."

I didn't word it correctly, John Edwards hired Amanda Marcotte....who said that. She stepped, down, Edwards refused to fire her when pressed.

Amanda Marcotte is a disgusting pig! She puts women in a bad light.

Erin,

You call this the “liberated 21st century”. Since women have been “liberated” we ALL have had more of our freedoms removed than ever before. All it did for us was to remove our mothers from the home and force the children into mass compulsory education. And no one is happier for it. Do you know how many people are on anti-depressants these days? If this liberation you talked about was a good thing, MORE people would be happy, not less.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (Her degree is in economics) made the case at the CINTA conference hosted by the Pro-Life Action League, that women’s lib forced women into work instead of making it an option. Actually it was probably more of contraception forced women into work.

I think women who make the decision to work instead of stay home don’t like to be free. If you think about it, when you work your employer gets to tell you exactly what to do for 40 hours a week. A housewife gets to do whatever she wants for the vast majority of every day. Granted… There are kids to take care of, but within that context it is whatever she wants. I think this is a pretty good deal. Women who prefer to work, would really prefer to be a servant that a queen. Being a queen is just too hard.

Joe

Joe,

Being a queen is friggin boring.

Has it ever occured to you that women work because they like to work and WANT to work because they like their job? Or to work is actually a lot more fun than moping around at home all day?

I'm a stay at home mom...I want my rights! I want a chance to lie around moping! Or was that mopping?

'Course you can stay at home! Didn't say that you couldn't. Just saying that some women don't want that.

What I meant by the moping (not mopping =)) was that after kids are at school and gone away for college, you don't have much to do at home. Lots of women (like my mom) plan to go out and work again or find a new baby to focus their attention on (like my mom and our dog ^^)

Abortion as a Moral Good?

Amanda Marcotte, the blogger who worked for John Edwards campaign before she fell victim to the "right wing noise machine", has an interesting take on abortion:

To see that abortion is moral, you just need to look at women as human beings with lives that have value. When a woman chooses abortion, she?s not indulging some guilty pleasure, like sneaking in a round of adultery at lunch, to bring up a genuinely immoral action that should not be criminal. She is probably thinking about her family?s well-being and yes, her own well-being. Taking your own well-being into consideration is called ?selfish? by anti-choicers, but I think valuing yourself is a moral good, even if you are female. In fact, especially if you are female, since you live in a world where having self-esteem can be an act of moral courage that requires some defiance. If I got pregnant, I wouldn?t even have to suffer much mental strain to realize that abortion would be the best choice for myself, my family, and my relationship. Abortion, not just the right to abortion but the actual procedure, is a moral good that helps women and families and should be honored as such. Women who get abortions should be recognized as people who can accurately weigh their choices and make the most moral one.
In fairness, most abortion advocates are not as morally deranged as Marcotte. Some even consider abortion to be "morally questionable", a position Marcotte claims is a "huge insult":

Updated to add: Also, saying that abortion is morally questionable, even if you?re pro-choice, is a huge insult to the brave men and women who risk life and limb to perform them. Being an abortion doctor is a pretty thankless task, because a bunch of ?Christian? men who have emasculation issues are gunning to kill you in hopes that brings their huevos back.
Again, let me be clear that I don't think Marcotte represents most pro-choicers. Marcotte is a special breed of crazy: a paranoid misandrist with a persecution complex and a broken moral compass. John Edwards must be thanking his lucky stars that this poor disturbed woman quit and skulked away before her extremist statements completely destroyed his already Quixotic campaign. (HT: Mirror of Justice)

I agree with this article!

sorry about those ?? in my post. I don't know how they got there.

Being a queen is friggin boring.

All depends on the king and the kingdom...

I swear a lot. Frequently in front of my parents. Everybody of both genders swear on my mom's side of the family and the same goes for my dad's side. I had *great* role models growing up. I don't see the big deal about swearing, though I do try to tone it down by finding "funny" words to replace the cuss words:

Shiz/Shiv = "S**t"
Fuzz = "F**k"

Etc.

And as for the song, I have no opinion on it as I've never really listened to it and I'm not a Ben Folds' fan. I also think Amanda makes women in general look bad.

I also plan to go to college and get a job and work for a living because otherwise I would be intellectually unstimulated and therefore, bored. I don't want to be a "housewife" because *I* have no interest in it, I would be bored. There is also no point in me ever being a "housewife" because I can't have children anyway.

*shrugs*

And women can still choose to be a housewife (a "free woman") if they want to. Nobody's stopping them. They still get a lot of respect. It's not like there are other women saying, "NO, you must get a job!"

I agree with PiP. My mom was very content to be a housewife/stay-at-home mutti. However, now that my brother and I are at college and the only sibling left is 12, so she doesn't need to be home all the time and she now has a part-time job as a barista.

I'm just not one to be content with staying at home. :)

Joe-

I don't care if some women live at home and take care of kids. I want my job. I like my job. I like learning things. What, kids should only go to school if they want to? No kid wants to go to school. Or maybe only boys should go to school? That's right, according to all that middle age philosophy, girls don't have the same capabilities of learning as boys do. Silly, dumb me! I can't help it, I'm just a GIRL!

@Erin:

"Just A Girl" by No Doubt

Take this pink ribbon off my eyes
I'm exposed
And it's no big surprise
Don't you think I know
Exactly where I stand
This world is forcing me
To hold your hand
'Cause I'm just a girl, little 'ol me
Don't let me out of your sight
I'm just a girl, all pretty and petite
So don't let me have any rights

Oh...I've had it up to here!
The moment that I step outside
So many reasons
For me to run and hide
I can't do the little things I hold so dear
'Cause it's all those little things
That I fear

'Cause I'm just a girl I'd rather not be
'Cause they won't let me drive
Late at night I'm just a girl,
Guess I'm some kind of freak
'Cause they all sit and stare
With their eyes

I'm just a girl,
Take a good look at me
Just your typical prototype

Oh...I've had it up to here!
Oh...am I making myself clear?
I'm just a girl
I'm just a girl in the world...
That's all that you'll let me be!
I'm just a girl, living in captivity
Your rule of thumb
Makes me worry some

I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?
What I've succumbed to Is making me numb
I'm just a girl, my apologies
What I've become is so burdensome
I'm just a girl, lucky me
Twiddle-dum there's no comparison

Oh...I've had it up to!
Oh...I've had it up to!!
Oh...I've had it up to here!

*cringes* That song is awful! Terrible music. I never knew who sang it. I think that a lot of women do want careers. That's fine. I think it's also okay to be a stay at home mother. Whatever you can afford.

I love that song--that was No Doubt.

Ever since then it's gone downhill and unsubstantial.

I like Gwen Stafani [sp?] I liked her remake of "It's My Life" I sort of like "Holler Back." I don't get this marching band type music she's been doing lately.

"Has it ever occured to you that women work because they like to work and WANT to work because they like their job? Or to work is actually a lot more fun than moping around at home all day?"

Ignorant Liberal comment.

"I also plan to go to college and get a job and work for a living"

Another ignorant liberal comment.

...like Mom's who stay at home don't work and sit around all day....and just because somebody can't concieve doesn't mean they can't be parents. adoption.

jasper, great point! I know plenty of women who balance career and family!! You don't have to choose one or the other!

Hi Heather,

I actually meant that Moms who stay home, do work.

I love that song--that was No Doubt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The guitar riff on that piece is nothing short of genius.

jasper, yes. I got that after I wrote. Being a mother is a full time job. I really respect stay at home mothers.

Actress Patricia Heaton's reply to the women who signed the "We Had Abortions" petition in Ms. Magazine. One woman said "I didn't want a baby." "I had an abortion so I would have something to do with my time....school/career." Patricia said, "Parenting a child IS giving women something to do with their time."...Point taken.

Laura- most definately. Holla-Back is an example of how unsubstantial Gwen has become. Back then, the band was bada**, and so was she. I remember really liking her music videos too when I was younger.

Jasper--

You show more ignorance in your comments than we do. We respect the women who want to work at home. But we also respect the women who want to work in a certain field--because they like it and want it. Why would I be studying medicine, and going to school for so long, if I didn't genuinely want to go into that career?
To say that all women should want to do is work at home is ignorant, and misogynistic. Why do men want to work at certain places. Some men like business, others like science, and all inbetween. How would you like it if I said that all men should want to be a farmer? Hey, they get to work outdoors, and it doesn't require many years at college. You want to be a business man? What an ignorant liberal statement!

Step out of the middle ages, guys. Women are people, remember?

Heather has the right idea...career does not mean no family.

@Heather: I love old-school No Doubt. But once "Rock Steady" was released and Gwen left to do her thing, I lost pretty much all respect for her. She sold out and her music nowadays is terrible.

But I love, love, love the song 'Just a Girl', it's always been a favorite of mine. :)

Right on, Rae

Rae, I agree. Her music sort of stinks. I think the irritating part of that other song for me is that "wawawawawa" type of rhythm. Ah, to each his own.

Hi5 PiP. :D

But you see...I don't have a problem with stay-at-home moms or housewives. My mom was a housewife/stay-at-home mutti because she wanted to be. She wanted nothing else but to be a mother. But now that her kids (my siblings and myself) are pretty much all grown up, she has nothing more to do. She has no messes around the house to clean up, not as many play-dates or activities to haul her kids to. So in order for something to do, she got a job that she loves.

I, on the other hand don't want to be a housewife, and I don't have any intention of being a stay-at-home mutti (much less a mutti in the first place). I don't care if other women do, more power to them if they want to do that, but I don't and I don't see why anybody should feel the need to try to make me feel guilty for wanting to be educated and working a 9-5 (well...not sure if my future career will actually be 9-5, but whatever) until I die (retirement is for sissies :-p).

"To say that all women should want to do is work at home is ignorant, and misogynistic. "

PIP, I didn't say that? I never refered to "all women"

""I also plan to go to college and get a job and work for a living"

Another ignorant liberal comment."

....Um....there.

jasper, help me out upstairs, would ya?

@Jasper: Generalizations about liberals ftl. I could have sworn you were finally getting beyond the whole, "blame liberals" and instead recognizing it's not the fault of an ideology but of individuals.

Oy.

One post up.

Rae-

Sweeping generalizations are his style.

@PiP: I know... I was just hoping that he'd learn that sweeping generalizations are not cool and instead of making a point they just make him look foolish.

*sigh*

Well, I must depart again (as I must traverse back to my webber-net deprived apartment).

Cheerio!

By Rae! See ya later.

I like working too! I'm not a mom but hope to be someday, I'm a teacher which I always thought would be a great job for being able to be a mom, I also like working with kids and learning. I know teachers who take several years off when they have their babies and then return once their kids are in school, it's perfect because many of them have kids in the very school they teach, they can be off when their kids are off in addition to summer break. I haven't been teaching this past 2 years actually because I got really sick - I've had 3 abdominal surgeries in the two years because of a disease called Endometriosis - girls if you want to know more about this please ask, because not many people know about it and it's a very difficult disease, it's not an STD or anything that you can catch from another person, but it affects women and causes pain and sometimes infertility, actually they don't know why certain people get it and others don't - and currently there is no cure. Anyway, I've been out of work for the past 2 years because of my health and plan on going back to teaching as soon as I feel healthy again (I just had surgery this past august, so hopefully it will be soon), but since I have had the experience of pretty much being forced to stay home for the past couple years I'll be so happy to go back to work, I definitely think it's important for women, especially moms to at least have the opportunity to work and have safe work environments that offer a fair and livable wage. And actually if it were up to me, I would classify being a mom as a full time job, stay at home moms (and stay at home dads) should be paid just like any other job! (obviously tax payers probably wouldn't vote to pay moms but it's nice to admit that being a mom is a full time job) But, regarding the comment of how many don't like their jobs, and yes, I think a lot of women who work do feel like they are a slave to their employer and feel little difference between them and an indentured servant, and certainly many many women are forced to work out of necessity...But this is also true for men too! Many many men also hate their job and work for employers who may treat them poorly and are underpaid and overworked. I think, however, there are many women (and men) who are now choosing alternatives to the standard 9-5 jobs. I know many moms who have successfully been able to run their own start-ups from home, whether its day care, crafts or classes, there are definitely more options out there than there were 20 years ago. There are also many moms who are joining together to create cooperative businesses and other organizations, some are dedicated to advancing family values and quality of life issues for families, women and children, and pushing for legislation that would help these issues. Just my little two cents on the issue...But yes, I think both points are valid. But I think in today's world it is important that women at least have the option of working and having an equitable job that pays a fair living wage...I do think there should be more support for mothers, like the problem of uninsured children in this country because it's difficult to find a job (especially part-time jobs) that offers health insurance. but, yes parenting IS a full-time job.

What about women who *gasp* don't have husbands? They pretty much have to work for their livelihoods. You can't stick to your "traditional role" if doing so puts you out on the street. Women can have careers and also take care of their families, they are some of the strongest people you will ever meet.

As for me, I'd rather have the financial freedom that comes with having a career, to me it's more important than just the freedom to plan my day as I wish (and this is really not true if you are taking care of kids, cleaning house, cooking meals). It gives a better peace of mind knowing that I'm not depending solely on someone who could end up dumping me for a "newer model"

""Has it ever occured to you that women work because they like to work and WANT to work because they like their job? Or to work is actually a lot more fun than moping around at home all day?"

Ignorant Liberal comment."

Why was it a ignorant "liberal" comment, Jasper? First off, it's not even a liberal comment, and its stupid that you think it is.

Second, I probably should have put in "SOME women" instead of just "women", but this comment is true. Like I said, I know many mothers who have careers, and still raise a family. I also know mothers who stay at home.

They can do both, but it's rather silly to say that a mother likes being a servant rather than a queen (Joe's words) just because she wants to work. She might want a career, or fill in time while her kids are at school, or just might enjoy what she does.

It also never hurts to have money that you can set aside for yourself, in case you would ever want to treat yourself, or say, if your husband dumps you or if, god forbid, he dies without adequate life insurance.

PIP, you say that no one is telling housewives to get jobs, but that simply isn't true.

Try telling someone that you don't want work and see how it goes over. I'm a bit sensitive on this issue because I am constantly told that I should do somethin that requires more "brain power" and that sort of thing.

Homemakers are definitely looked down upon by a good portion of society.

Here's an example-

"I also plan to go to college and get a job and work for a living because otherwise I would be intellectually unstimulated."

Rae

I think that was more of an example of how Rae would feel than her feelings about women on the whole. The ways in which people find fulfillment are always different. Some people need business and academic settings to feel intellectually stimulated, others can find intellectual stimulation by imparting wisdom to children, juggling family schedules, or even watching Jeopardy.

Sure, JK, But imagine hearing constantly "well, I would never be happy being a teacher, I need something more intelectually stimulating."

I don't think Rae meant any ill will, but it was just a good example of what I hear every day. It *is* hurtful.

I don't doubt that it is hurtful to you, but it is also hurtful to hear people say they believe women who work outside the home are selfish and people who don't homeschool don't love their children and want their children to be wild and stupid. Several people I know are a kind of "militant housewife" who believe that if a man is capable of holding any job whatsoever, his wife is being incredibly selfish for wanting to do her part in the breadwinning category instead of doing her "Christian duty" of staying home. Their remarks always leave me incredibly offended because (besides the fact they are implying that my mom is not a good Christian) if my mom didn't work outside the home, I wouldn't have many (if any) of the things and opportunities I have today.

I understand that it goes both ways, but I am just responding to the contention that housewives are never shamed for their decisions.

JK is right. I definitely don't think housewives should feel pressured to get jobs, but it goes both ways. People that say it is wrong to desire an outside job is just as hurtful to us.

haha lauren, I think we posted about the same thing at the same time.

Addressing your previous comment--

When I said "noone" I meant noone here is promoting that thought system. I don't doubt that other people do that. There are always people that do that sort of stuff..

Oh, Ok PIP. Yeah, I agree that people here are pretty accepting in this area on both sides of the so called "mommy wars."

My take on the whole homemaker persecution. I apologize in advance if it insults anyone.

I fully intend to raise my children if I ever birth or adopt any. That means that I am their primary caregiver. When they fall down and scrape their knee, they come to me for comfort and care. When they've colored a picture they're proud of, I'm the one there to praise it and tack it proudly on the fridge and instill in them some self-efficacy. When they ask a question about a theological or moral issue, I'm there to answer it and shape their consciences and characters into Godly ones. You can't get this from a daycare. Kids need parents. Kids need MOMS.

I paid my way through college and grad school as a pre-school teacher with 2's and 3's. The children did not know their parents. Mom and Dad dropped them off at 6:30, picked them up at 6:30 and had only a hour or two before bed. Kids would cry and cling to me and not want to go home. These aren't parents working two jobs to get by- they each had their own Mercedes SUV. In fact, on their days off work, they still brought the children to me so they could use the time as they pleased. And I can say without stuttering: They valued money, comfort, and THEMSELVES more than their children.

It's all about priorities. My mother, a nurse, was full-time at home but always worked in some capacity beyond the home. She ran our after-school program at our private school to pay tuition. She worked from the kitchen table as a small business manager. And I never lacked a parent. There are ways to both have a career and parent without sacrificing your children. But selfish women that want a baby to cuddle but don't want it to interfere with their worldly ambitions have babies at their baby's expense.

Amen Jacque!

@Lauren: I apologize if what I said hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it to. I was trying to just convey how I felt based on my experiences with my mom and how I go about doing things.

I am easily bored. If a job is too easy, I get bored. If a class is too easy, I get bored. When I get bored, I get very angry/bitter. I know what my mom used to do when she would care for us chitlins. I know that I would not want to do that because I personally would become very resentful of my kids (I'm soooooo surprised my mom didn't end up hating my brothers and I). I need to do something that keeps me on my toes intellectually. Now I'm not saying kids don't keep you on your toes, because they most certainly do, but I have no interest in being a mother (mostly because I'd probably SUCK at it). I want to work with pathogenic viruses and bacteria. I want to study infectious diseases. I want to teach about HIV/AIDS prevention and study better ways to convey this. I want to travel around the world to study bizarre new illnesses. Because of these goals, I have no intention of having children.

I don't appreciate people telling me that these are bad goals and that I am "missing something" by not wanting to have kids, because to me, I'm not. To me, I'd be "missing something" because I wouldn't be able to "follow my dreams" and my kids would be lacking because they would have a mother who was constantly angry/bitter and that wouldn't be fair to them and it would not be fair to me.

*ahem*

But, here's my homemaker persecution caveat-

Soap operas and bon bons, children poorly behaved, house a wreck, take-out every night of the week- Your husband works 40+ hours a week. but what exactly is it that you do?

I've seen homemakers that ask for their husband's help with the laundry, etc. and I want to throttle them- "That's your job! That's ALL you do." Mowing the lawn, fixing the plumbing-that's different. But if many of these homemakers were running your home as a paying job, with a boss, they'd get fired. Someone's not pulling their weight. I think the same of homemaker with cooks and maids. You're paying someone to do your job.

I could never be completely at home, because I would feel so isolated. I would need to do some volunteer work, school, sell Avon- SOMETHING. But that's just me.

Jacquie-

I believe that parents cand be wonderful parents, even if they both worked two jobs.

Most jobs don't take 12 hours daily--and those that do (most nurses and other health care pros) have more days off during the week to spend with their children.

Achieving professional success does not mean you abandon your children, as long as they are a top priority. (Obviously some do it but that doesn't mean all do). Both my parents had jobs, and our family is very stable.

Oh--forgot to add.

If I decide to have children, I would wait a year or two probably to go back to work if I can.

Those first couple years are important, and I think to raise a child to be well-rounded they should form a bond with mother and mother should help the child learn things early in life.

I think that it's a perfectly reasonable statement to say that a certain job you would find mentally non-stimulating. Different people need different levels and areas of experiences in order to be content. In the same light that some people dislike math but love English, or dislike science but enjoy history, people utilize different ways to get what they need out of their life. Sometimes it will involve being a homemaker, sometimes it won't. It's all a matter of of personal choice. I don't care if you're a stay at home mom or a nuclear physicist, as long as you're happy. Unhappy parents probably damage their children psychologically too.

Achieving professional success does not mean you abandon your children, as long as they are a top priority. (Obviously some do it but that doesn't mean all do). Both my parents had jobs, and our family is very stable.

Absolutely- two of the parents I admire most have always worked. My boyfriends' mother had 6 kids, all in parochial school. She worked as the school librarian to support that. She was always there to parent. She was never absent. In fact, it should be known that my patroness saint, whom I aspire to be like, was a working mother (a OBGYN and Pediatrician) that had 4 children. Her children were her first priority, insomuch as she died to save her youngest. Working and motherhood aren't mutually exclusive, but today's working world is so demanding that you must find alternatives if you want to care for your own children.

My belief is that children are meant to be parented by their parents- and having two working parents during the years when kids are not yet in school and need exceptional care (diapers, for example) is unnatural and a second-best choice for children.

I need to be more careful with such blanketed value statements. I hope I haven't offended you.

I think that it's a perfectly reasonable statement to say that a certain job you would find mentally non-stimulating.

I think so, too. I think the problem is that we deningrate motherhood and homemaking into a "brainless" non-job. It doesn't matter if you work as a checker at a grocery store, a fast-food drive-through cashier or a janitor, you're automatically a better person than a housewife. Just the word "house" has a negative conotation- housewife, housecat- it makes something unstimulating, domestic, and ordinary.

It's not that being a mother and running a home wouldn't satisfy me- it's that working were you live is isolating. So I would want something to take me out into the world so I'm not confined.

There are obviously ways to find stimulation if you're a housewife. I believe Bethany is a stay at homeThere are lots of ways to excercise your mind, it's just up to you how you want to do it.

Jacquie--

I agree. You haven't offended me-actually, I was wondering whether the post implied that women should parent as homemakers or just be a parent in general.

But I absolutely agree. I think a lot of violence and criminal behavior generally can be stemmed back to a lack of parenting. I think children actually (sometimes subconsciously) crave boundaries because it means that their parents care about them. One of my best friends had a parent that was more self-interested and essentially let her children do as they pleased. My mother and I have noticed that a few of them that now have kids of their own also don't set many boundaries for their children, and others lack aspiration for goals they can easily achieve.

To answer your question, PIP, I am definitely sexist. Young children need mommies. Stay at home daddies can change diapers, cook meals, etc. But they can't be mommies. And Mommies can't be Daddies. Since women have breasts to feed young children, there is an initial Mommy-dependence from conception to weaning. I don't think the emotional dependence ends at weaning. I think children need Mommies as primary caregivers until they are school age (when they still need parenting after school.) Besides, I think women are intelligently designed as caregivers/nurturers and men are likewise designed as protectors/providers. So it's a role reversal to have a Dad as a primary caregiver, although between a Dad and a female nanny, the Dad is the handsdown choice.

So I think women need to be primary caregivers, whatever that entails. Naturally, since she's already home with the child, it makes sense that should would run the household- because caregiving involves cooking, cleaning and laundry. And since I resent SAHM's that hire out these chores, by default, I am saying women with very young children should be homemakers.

"I could never be completely at home, because I would feel so isolated. I would need to do some volunteer work, school, sell Avon- SOMETHING. But that's just me. "

"It's not that being a mother and running a home wouldn't satisfy me- it's that working were you live is isolating. So I would want something to take me out into the world so I'm not confined."

what?? you just said.......somethings not right here, or somebody is not being truthful...

what?? you just said.......somethings not right here, or somebody is not being truthful...

None of that's inconsistent.

You go out to work, and then you come home. A SAHM/Housewife stays at home to work and stays at home after work. See how isolating this can be? I could never have a home that is all I do. No pro-life work, no church bakesales, no GirlScout camping. I would go insane.

Some of the best SAHM/Housewives I know are sidewalk counselors, students, independent beauty consultants, etc. They do something beyond the home that doesn't interefere with caregiving. They aren't isolated. I could never be isolated.

Read about Saint (Dr.) Gianna Molla. She raised her own children while running a private practice-and eventually became a saint.

Impressive?

"No pro-life work, no church bakesales, no GirlScout camping. I would go insane."

Of course, stay at home mom's should be able to do these things, agreed.

jasper- my mother experienced a similar type of thing. I think what Jackie is saying is that many stay-at-home mothers have to make a bit more of a concerted effort to get out and be social with people of their own age, because they aren't naturally exposed to it as much. It's not really a disadvantage unless you let it be. It is very easy for a stay-at-home mom to let themselves become socially isolated, simply because it's not as out there as other life paths. But again, it's only a real disadvantage if you let it become one.

"Of course, stay at home mom's should be able to do these things, agreed."

Able? As in, you'll *allow* them to do those things. Those things are approved activities?

Jacquie-

You say you are sexist? But a part of FFL? ;)

Tee-hee.

Yes, I believe in differences in the sexes, some of which present certain advantages and disadvantages.

Por ejemplo, I believe men have the advantage in physical height and muscle mass. Men are on average taller and physically stronger than women. While there are some weak men and strong women, when it comes to determining who can fight fires, if there are fewer women on the squad because fewer are able to lift the hose, I don't count that as discrimation- I count that as reality. And I count myself lucky that I don't have to depend on someone too weak to save my life in a fire. Now, between a strong woman and a weak man, the woman should win. It's content of quality, not gender.

Likewise, women are more relational than men are and care about others feelings. Men are often oblivious to such things and are "straight business" while women have their hand on the pulse of human emotions. This is what I think makes a majority of women crappy-@ss negotiators when it comes to determining a pay scale. I'll admit- I suck at that, because I don't want to come across as ungrateful for the opportunity or pushy. And I am a highly marketable and successful lady- and underpaid, because I don't want a confrontation. I know countless women that fail to advocate for themselves for this (and I think it's partly this, not systematic sexism or a glass ceiling, that accounts for the pay discrepancy between males and females).

Of the flipside of not wanting an ill-equipped fire fighter trying to rescue me, I wouldn't want someone that doesn't know how to comfort a crying child working in children's home. Odds are strong that it will be more women teaching kindergarten, nursing, as social workers than men- because they're naturally better equipped.

The problem is to be "gender blind" in the workforce and judge based on qualifications, not gender. This is where anti-discrimination and equal opportunity comes into play.

Along the whole, male/female advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages of Women-

Look nice naked, all the body parts curve together smootly, rather than screwed together in pieces like a GI Joe.

Advantages of Men-

Can write their name in the snow.

Advantages of Women-

Knows how to clean and sanitize, whereas men dump an entire bottle on pine-sol in a sink of hot water while at work, so the house will "smell clean."

Advantages of Men-

Knows how to use powertools, change tires, and fix leaks.

Just a few that come to mind. Mind you, this is not scientific.

Hey, PIP-

Look what I found! Weeee!

Haha....I can't clean or sanitize anything (you should see my apartment) but I can use power tools (at least, several different types of power saws).....

JKeller-

And now, you can write your name in the snow.

This is friggin' GREAT!

Silly!

That doesn't mean you are sexist it means you know reality.

Reality generally says--the best person for the job wins.

Sexism generally says--here is the woman's place. Stay there.

A woman's place is in the mall.

That was fun!

Reality also should say, though, that if there is a woman that's fully qualified for a job that's generally a 'man's job', she should still be able to do it. For example, when my mom needs something built for her classroom, she has me do it. She made the mistake of having my dad try and build her a set of bookshelves ONCE. All four shelves in her classroom were built by me. Carpentry not so much a girly thing, but I can build. The problems happen when exclusivity comes into play. Most doesn't mean all, and people are often too willing to make that jump.

I wish I could pee int he snow. I actually tried once. I couldn't get past the "K"

I almost couldn't believe this when I read it:

"In Islamic tradition, breast-feeding establishes a degree of maternal relation, even if a woman nurses a child who is not biologically hers. It means the child could not marry the nursing woman's biological children.

Attiya - the head of Al-Azhar's Department of Hadith, or teachings of the Prophet Muhammad - insisted the same would apply with adults. He argued that if a man nursed from a co-worker, it would establish a family bond between them and allow the two to work side-by-side without raising suspicion of an illicit sexual relation. "

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708655924&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Erin--

Of course. I think that is what we are trying to say. Qualified=job. No matter what sex it is.

"I wish I could pee int he snow. I actually tried once. I couldn't get past the "K" "

LOL!!

"I almost couldn't believe this when I read it:"

Riiight.

I think it is interesting in a way, but that's about it. I take it you find it "negative"?

Wow, Jasper, that is crazy!!!!

I wish I could pee int he snow. I actually tried once. I couldn't get past the "K"

After a track meet in high school, the coach had the bus pull into a Dairy Queen where we were gonna get some treats.

The immortal Ricky Cress then proceded to "write" an exceedingly rude slogan on the back of the place - the wall was dry concrete block, and it worked well. Hey - he really had to so.

He hadn't finished for ten seconds when here comes a state trooper, parking right by that spot on the wall. We were pretty much comatose with combined fear and the urge to laugh ourselves to death.

He gets out of his cruiser, gives us a look that said, "You little so-and-so's.." and went and got himself a milkshake.

Once he was out of sight we were absolutely hysterical.

Doug

Jacqueline: A woman's place is in the mall.

I know it's still summer, but the weather is changing in many places across our great country.

With winter coming on, I'd just like to remind everybody that

many are cold, but few are frozen.