The largest abortion provider in the U.S., Planned Parenthood Federation, recently embarked on a national abortion building campaign.

If you are an abortion proponent who (inexplicably) believes, as the Clintons do, abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare," do you support or oppose PP's expansion program, which will obviously result in more abortions. (As it is said, "If you build it, they will come.")

Why or why not?

Richard Irvin Should resign

Jill, most rank and file PP supporters really believe that PP's Pill-pushing prevents abortions. Though how they can explain that when PP moves into town the abortion rate goes up while still believeing that remains a profound mystery.

Most Planned Parenthood supporters prefer to not talk about the facts, such as the reality that an increase in birth control results in an increase in abortions, not a decrease. When presented with such information, they just say that of course more birth control means fewer abortions, and they will not discuss the matter further. If you persist, they'll resort to personal attacks or go off on irrelevant tangents - anything to avoid the issue at hand.

The PP proponents put their hands over their ears, close their eyes and scream "Lies, lies!" whenever anyone tells the truth about PP. They do the same when they are shown the pictures of fetuses, living or dead, or really anything that they just don't want to think about.

As for abortions increasing when PP moves in to a city, I imagine that our pro-'choice' friends would make one of the following arguments:

-Abortions seem to increase when PP is in a city because women don't have to travel to other cities for their abortions.

-PP decreases abortions, not increases them! Lies, lies!

-Sure, I said that I wanted abortion to be rare, but I was just trying to shut up you anti-choice fascists. A fetus is just a worthless clump of cells, so who cares how rare abortion is?

-Oh yeah?! Well what about anti-choice terrorists??? You're the AmTaliban!!

John,

Hello and welcome. You make a valid point. For at least the past 20 years all we've heard from PP is how their methods will reduce teen pregnancy. Why haven't they worked? I can remember when former PP president Faye Wattleton was a media darling. There was mother Faye, giving us advise on our teenage daughters. Unfortunately she all too often needed only to sit and smile condescendingly while pro-life opponents got themselves worked up debating her. You had to hand it to her, she was dedicated to her cause plus she had the support of a fawning media.
Shouldn't the problem of teen and other "unwanted" pregnancy be long solved by now? It just seems to be ongoing while PP continues to build, expand, and cry for more money to solve a problem they have so far failed miserably to solve.
But this is a familiar pattern. We still hear cries of how abortion will solve the problem of child abuse, drug addicted babies, and poverty. Uh, folks, abortion has been legal for 34 years. Why do these problems still exist? Isn't it obvious by now that abortion will NOT solve these problems?
Our society is one that looks for the quick fix. It takes less time and effort to send a woman to the abortion clinic than it does to solve her drug addiction or eliminate her poverty. Oh, and there's the issue of holding men responsible for their actions, but that's another topic!

As quality of birth control increases, abortions will go down. Abortion rates haven't increased in more than 10 years, according the the CDC. PP also provides services other than abortions. Of course, just like abortions, things like Pap smears and STD screenings are evil!!

John,

"Abortions seem to increase when PP is in a city because women don't have to travel to other cities for their abortions."

True. Think about it really hard. If there was no place (or very few places) in a city to get an abortion, there wouldn't be a very high abortion rate, now would there?

"PP decreases abortions, not increases them! Lies, lies"

PP is working to prevent abortions. How on earth do they increase an abortion? When there's a new clinic, abortions in that area would probably go up, yes, but it'll go down at a different location.

"Sure, I said that I wanted abortion to be rare, but I was just trying to shut up you anti-choice fascists. A fetus is just a worthless clump of cells, so who cares how rare abortion is?"

Stop being so sarcastic, it's bad for you.

"Oh yeah?! Well what about anti-choice terrorists??? You're the AmTaliban!!"

What does this have to do with anything?

@Erin: It doesn't matter what "good" things that they do, they still kill children. Mengele did some fascinating twin studies and discovered many new surgical procedures, but let's ignore the thousands of people he tortured and killed in order to obtain that information.

Erin,

According to PP's own records, in 2005 they performed 269,943 abortions, which is 10,000 more than they performed in 2004 and double what they performed in 1995. So much for PP making a difference in the abortion rate.
Yes they perform other services, but these are usually part of the abortion "service" they provide. They provided pre-natal care to 12,548 women. The report said nothing about adoption services or referrals.

Erin, the argument that as the quality of birth control gets better abortion rates will go down is older than you are. Why isn't abortion virtually non-existent?

1.3 million abortions a year is not rare! How is PP helping anybody? Well, except covering the tracks for sex offenders, that is. Abortion on demand is the wrong way to go. I feel that if we had stricter laws on abortion, people would be less likely to abuse it. Hey, the smoking ban passed in my state. People respect it now. They don't want a citation. If a woman can't run to the abortion clinic, maybe she'll stop acting like a reproductive slob. Maybe pedophilia and incest have also increased thanks to abortion. PP has a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Sick!

Also, if abortion truly solved anything, why isn't it uncommon to see women who keep returning to the abortion clinic? Now a days it's not uncommon to meet a woman who's had more than one abortion. I'm sure that all of the pro lifers here know at LEAST 1 woman personally who's had an abortion. I find this very sad.

Building clinics causes abortions?
Right, and building emergency rooms causes car accidents.

Do you people know what causes pregnancy?
Here, we'll go through it one more time. Sometimes, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...

" the argument that as the quality of birth control gets better abortion rates will go down is older than you are. Why isn't abortion virtually non-existent?"

@Mary: It could be because people are stupid and don't use birth control properly. Of course it could be that perhaps PP is selling faulty BC and the drug companies are selling faulty BC in order to increase the number of abortions.

*shrugs*

Rae,

I'm only saying this argument is older than Erin, as well as you. Like you, I can only speculate on why it hasn't been proven true.

@Mary: I know. :) Speculation is fun, everybody should try it. ^_^

Why doesn't anyone ever address the issue that there are some PP that DO NOT perform abortions? Pro-lifers always ignore me when I say that and rarely respond. The PP I used to go to in MN did not perform them and the next closest PP was two hours away. I received my birth control from PP for two years and never became pregnant.

JM, hi. Hope you are well. There is a PP right down the street from me. I could walk there in 10 minutes. They don't perform abortions either. They all give referrals to their main death camp though. I've said this before. If the only thing PP did was help women with health care needs, I wouldn't care about them one iota, but I believe that the majority of their $$ is made from baby killing. To me, this is not a health care "need."

JM,

There may indeed be PPs that do not perform abortions but the fact remains the bulk of PPs millions of dollars of income comes from abortion. They don't get it exclusively from providing the services you mention, as well as prenatal care, to low income women.
I believe SOMG, on another thread, pointed out that since pre-natal care can lead to lawsuits, PP is less than enthused about providing it. SOMG is welcome to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Rae,

10:51am post. An excellent post and a very good point.

Mary- PP may be doing more abortions. The abortion rate has not increased. The CDC studies note this conclusively.

@Mary: I've always read how doctors/OB-GYNs are almost "suction happy" when a woman's baby/fetus is found to have an abnormality (fatal or not). Could it be because of the risk of lawsuits if that baby was born abnormal (even if the woman was informed of the possible problem)? I've heard of doctors that were sued because the baby was predicted to be a boy and it was born a girl (which is completely retarded) or if a baby was predicted to be healthy but once born it was found the baby has cerebral palsy.

Erin, hi there. Do you have a link to this source? I'd be interested in reading it.

@Erin: How can PP be doing more abortions, but the abortion rate hasn't increased? I suck at statistics...

Erin, me too. Hi Rae. How's the new place?

I'll be back in 20 minutes or so. I've got to run to the Dollar Store.

Yes. I do. *sigh* I've posted these studies like 50 times, I should just save these links somewhere.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5109a1.htm

I know the 2002 study is floating about somewhere out there...give me a bit to find it.

@Heather: Oh, it's fine. I'm getting used to it. I'm at work right now because I don't have internet at home. :( I've been cooking and I think I've come up with some very yummy recipes...mmmmm basmati rice is the best rice evar. :)

How have you been?

Rae- you have to take population increase into account in terms of abortion rates. More abortions may be being performed, but there are also more people in the country. Therefore, percentagewise, there hasn't been any increase. Also, many people are going to PP rather than standard OB/GYNs for abortions because of convenience and price.

Found the bugger.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm

"Overall, the annual number of legal induced abortions in the United States increased gradually from 1973 until it peaked in 1990, and it generally declined thereafter"

Erin, the cdc numbers from 1998 on are very flawed. They fail to take into account several states, which results in a 400,000 difference between their numbers and AGI's. Valerie has those statistics on her site.

Thank you Erin. :)

But I have another question, how can the population be increasing so much if the birth-rate in the US is on the decline (from what I've heard)?

Lauren- every study of the CDC since 1990 has reported these facts. And mine were from 1999 and 2002. Not 1998.

Rae- with the amount of people in the world, it doesn't take a lot of babies to increase the population. You have 6 billion people in the world, not all of them need to be having babies to keep the population growning. Heck, it's probably GOOD that not all of them are having babies. The birth rate in the US is on the decline, but so are instances of infant mortality, and people are living longer, and so on, and so forth. In general, population is always increasing unless more people are dying than are being born. Birth rate is only a tiny piece of population in general. Statistics are tricky blighters, aren't they?

Rae,

Its my opinion that our society expects perfection. We have a strong sense of entitlement. If an outcome is not perfect, someone has to be to blame. People can't trip over their own feet or spill coffee on themselves anymore without suing someone. Cerebral palsy is as old as the human race, but doctors are sued today. OK, the doctor couldn't know the baby would have an anamoly or a genetic disorder, but he/she should have considered the possiblity. We expect OB/GYNs to be prophets. Even the best pre-natal diagnostic tools will not pick up every possible anamoly, nor will they always be 100% accurate. Sympathetic and medically ignorant juries are easy to find, and any good lawyer will play on the sympathy factor for all its worth.
When all my pregnancies occured in the early to mid eighties, ultra-sound was used only under limited circumstances. Now its routine. I have my own theory about the rampant use of ultrasound and the skyrocketting rate of autism, but I have nothing to back it up, its just my opinion. I'm not convinced ultrasound is all that safe and I wonder if our efforts to produce more normal children is resulting in these children suffering a disability later in life. Again, my opinion only.
I have noticed over the years Rae that the more prenatal testing available, the more perfection people demand and the greater the number of lawsuits as a result. I can remember when there was no prenatal testing of any kind, lawsuits were a rarity and it was accepted that children would be born with anomolies, tragic as they were. Oh, and autism was very rare as well.

Erin,

Me too, I can't do basic arithmetic.

@Mary: I think it's pathetic how people sue over such STUPID things, it's a wonder why people become doctors anymore knowing that nobody appreciates what they do for us and are only looking for the doctors to mess up so they can sue. It's actually the big reason why I'm not going into medicine anymore, I don't want to deal with my patients suing me for more or less doing my job.

It's horrible how people feel they are entitled to things they do not deserve. It drives me absolutely bonkers to hear these frivolous lawsuits.

My opinion on autism is that it is being over-diagnosed...it seem as though they diagnose any socially stunted child with autism and then that kid becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Erin, every study by the cdc *since* 1998.

Mary,

When was autism rare and how do you know this?

Elizabeth

Rae,

Good point about over-diagnosis. I have the same opinion of ADHD and other so-called childhood psychiatric disorders.
I base my comment about ultrasound on the fact that years ago, x-rays were touted as perfectly safe, as is ultrasound now, and babies were x-rayed while in the mother's womb, if you can imagine! Obviously only a skeletal outline could be seen. Anyway, there followed a huge increase in the incidence of childhood leukemia. It was finally determined that x-rays were the culprit, that x-ray radiation can in fact be cancer causing, and people began treating x-rays with the respect and fear they deserve.
I know a couple of women who work with autistic children that think its just being better diagnosed. What we thought years ago were just quirks or oddities may have in fact been some form of autism. In my opinion, it doesn't explain the skyrocketting rate of autism though.

Lauren, what about the studies from the previous years which stated the same things? The rate stabilized in 1990 and started to decrease the very next year.

1991-
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00038049.htm

"In 1991, 1,388,937 abortions were reported -- a 2.8% decrease from 1990."

1992-
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041486.htm

"In 1992, 1,359,145 abortions were reported -- a 2.1% decrease from 1991."

1993
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00040686.htm

"In 1993, a total of 1,330,414 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC (Table_1), a decrease of 2.1% from the number reported for 1992"

1994
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00045043.htm

"In 1994, a total of 1,267,415 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC (Table_1), a decrease of 4.7% from the number reported for 1993"

1995
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053774.htm

"In 1995, a total of 1,210,883 legal abortions were reported to CDC, representing a 4.5% decrease from the number reported for 1994."

1996
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4804a1.htm

"In 1996, a total of 1,221,585 legal abortions were reported to CDC, representing a 0.9% increase from the number reported for 1995"

1997
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4911a1.htm

"In 1997, a total of 1,186,039 legal abortions were reported to CDC, representing a 3% decrease from the number reported for 1996."

So, there are the statistics as far as you're willing to acknowledge are accurate. Tell me, what now makes them so inaccurate, and what cause to you have to think that the statistics have radically changed, lauren?

Hey, can a mod put up that big ol' list of links I jsut posted, please? Grazie.

its up there now Erin...

Yup, thanks.

"In 1997, a total of 1,186,039 legal abortions were reported to CDC, representing a 3% decrease from the number reported for 1996."

Yes, abortion rates have been declining. It is also not the raw numbers that tell the whole story. The population of the US continues to increase, so even were the abortion numbers themselves holding steady, the rate per person would still be going down.

There is also the matter, unknowable to some degree, of what would be the numbers if there wasn't birth control.

Doug

Elizabeth,

I recall in the 70's a doctor advising an intern to come and see an unusual sight, an autistic child. The intern was told he would unlikely see another autistic child in his career. We have always had autism certainly, but we did not see it to the degree you do now. To know or hear of anyone who had it was rare.
I'm basing what I say on what I've observed since the 1950's. The same way one would observe that polio is rare today. Even in the early to mid eighties you didn't hear of it like you do now. I have also been following reports of the disorder and the increased incidence over the years, as well as a close friend of mine, a special ed teacher for over 30 years who acknowledges that autism was rare, but she is convinced the increased incidence today is just better diagnosis and a wider range of what is considered autistic. I have formed what I emphasize is my own theory.
One could argue that ADHD has been around forever but just not diagnosed. Personally I'm not convinced ADHD really exists, and if it does, its grossly overdiagnosed. Again, my opinion.

Erin, Doug,

why do you care if there are less abortions? This is freedom of choice were talking about here...plus, they are fetuses that are not capable of thinking, etc. So, why does it even matter?

Doug,

While I have you here, there's another "old story" that I wrote on the "Better off dead" (September)thread, knowing that you enjoy them. I hope you had a chance to read it, if not I hope you do.

Ah, but jasper, that's not what we're talking about. Jill said that we aren't making abortions more rare, which is not true. Safe, legal and rare- and with numbers dropping, it's becoming more rare. Which is what just about everyone wants. Of course a woman will still be able to choose to abort- but she won't be faced with the decision as much1.

Erin, Doug,

why do you care if there are less abortions? This is freedom of choice were talking about here...plus, they are fetuses that are not capable of thinking, etc. So, why does it even matter?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the same reason we believe in fewer root canals.
They're uncomfortable, expensive, and anytime you have an invasive procedure like that the risk of death from infection or anesthesia is very real.
It's always best to avoid them if you can, but you must have access to them - just in case.

Erin, I'm not arguing that abortion is not going down, just not at the rates the says

Look at this table

1995 1,363,690 1,210,883
1996 1,365,730 1,221,585
1997 1,365,730 1,186,039
1998 1,365,730 884,273*
1999 1,365,730 861,789*
2000 1,312,990 857,475**
2001 1,303,000& 853,485**

*excludes NH, CA, AK, OK
**excludes NH, CA, AK

The left side is AGI, the right is cdc. If we look at the cdc numbers, it looks like abortion decreased dramatically from 1997 to 1998. However, if we look at the AGI numbers, it is clear these numbers were exactly the same.

Obviously, lack of reporting in some states has vastly skewed accuracy.

(Thanks Val, for the statistics)

Mary: I recall in the 70's a doctor advising an intern to come and see an unusual sight, an autistic child. The intern was told he would unlikely see another autistic child in his career. We have always had autism certainly, but we did not see it to the degree you do now. To know or hear of anyone who had it was rare.
I'm basing what I say on what I've observed since the 1950's. The same way one would observe that polio is rare today. Even in the early to mid eighties you didn't hear of it like you do now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is just my personal observation - I don't have the education, background or credentials to be an expert here-
Ever since we've been using sonic imaging more and more in veteriary practice, we are seeing a sharp increase in a veterinary version of an autism-like syndrome.
When we were just using the sonic imaging to diagnose illness and injury we really didn't see it, but now that every animal breeder on the planet wants to prenatal images of their champion's offspring, we're seeing it all the time.
Like I said,I am CERTAINLY NOT an expert - and I couldn't hope to explain why it would affect some and not others - I'm beginning to get really suspicious.

Totally off topic:

I am trying to create word problems for my students using positive and negative numbers. For example: The temperature was 30 degrees then the temperature dropped 40 degrees. What is the temperature now?

I am having writers block and can not think of any good word problems... anyone have any ideas?

OK, I've got one.

Johnny breaks a window when he is playing baseball with his friends. Johnny's parents say that he must pay for the cost of a new window. A new window costs $67, Johnny only has $41 in his savings. How much more will Johnny owe for the window?

I hope this is kind of what you're looking for.

Laura,

Thank you for your input. That's very interesting. Like you, I don't know why it would effect some babies and not others. Maybe the level of development, frequency of the sonograms, or the type of machine used. I have read that the "safety" of sonograms is being called into question. Can we be certain that bombarding a fragile developing fetus, human or animal, with soundwaves is harmless? I understand the intrauterine noise of the sonogram is very loud as well. What kind of damage can that cause? As I pointed out, during my pregnancies, the use of sonogram was restricted to diagnostic use only. I only had one with my third child, and that was because of a possible miscarriage. Once the doctor determined I was still pregnant, he never sonogrammed me again. Now, they're as routine as prenatal visits.
I mentioned in a previous post that "perfectly safe" x-rays did a lot of damage before it was determined they could be carcinogenic. This was a new toy and it was fun to look inside the human body and uterus. I'm concerned we may finally be seeing the damage caused by "perfectly safe" sonograms as well.

why do you care if there are less abortions? This is freedom of choice were talking about here...plus, they are fetuses that are not capable of thinking, etc. So, why does it even matter?

Jasper, if pro-lifers are falsely pretending there are "more" abortions, then I'm probably going to argue with stuff like that.

Doug

Jkeller- Thats what I am looking for...! Thanks!

I am trying to find a word problem where the students would have to do something like this 35-(-10) any suggestions?

JM,

I'm still trying to figure out what Johnny would owe!

Hmmm...that's a tough one to put into words.

Maybe something like this:

Rob sells apples at the farmer's market. Rob has 35 apples that he can sell to his customers. However, yesterday he took an order from his friend Steve for 10 apples. Steve will be picking up his apples today so Rob has brought them to his stand to sit with the other apples he has for sale. How many total apples does Rob have on his stand today?

JKeller,

I won't even tackle that one!! Now, let me see, if Johnny.......

In other news.....

How much does Notre Dame suck this season? They're down 24-0 early in the second quarter to much-maligned Michigan.

IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO STAND BEHIND
OUR TROOPS, PLEASE, PLEASE, FEEL FREE...
TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!!

What if people with autism/things on the autism spectrum such as Aspergers, were just put into "homes" for people with mental retardation? I don't know, I'll have to look into it more. But it's possible that such people were just referred to as "idiots" and sent away, thus there would not be a record of it per se.

Laura,

Do you people know what causes pregnancy?

Do you?

Here, we'll go through it one more time. If you have sex, it can lead to pregnancy. If you don't want to get pregnant, avoid sex.

MK,

Nice adage.

Did someone here insult the troops?

Erin,

Mary- PP may be doing more abortions. The abortion rate has not increased. The CDC studies note this conclusively.

California, the state with the most abortions does not report to the CDC so the abortions provided there, are not counted.
Val just sent me an email on this, but I think I deleted it. I'll check.

Also, with the availability of the morning after pill, the count would go down, because those aren't counted as abortions.

No,

I just got it in an email...thought I'd share...

Rae,

Speaking of stupid law suits, this just came in an email...(getting lots of crazy emails today)

Stella Awards

Time once again to review the winners of the Annual "Stella
Awards."
The Stella Awards are named after 81 year-old Stella Liebeck who
spilled hot
coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonald's (in NM). That case
inspired the Stella Awards for the most frivolous, ridiculous,
successful
lawsuits in the United States

Here are this year's winners:

5th Place (tie):

Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, was awarded $80,000. by a
jury of
her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was
running
inside a furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably
surprised at the verdict, considering the misbehaving little toddler
was Ms.
Robertson's son.

5th Place (tie):
19-year-old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical
expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr.
Truman
apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car when
he
was trying to steal his neighbor's hubcaps.

5th Place (tie):

Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he
had
just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the
garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was
malfunctioning. He
couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and
garage
locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and M r.
Dickson
found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a
case of
Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the
homeowner's
insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The
jury
agreed, to the tune of $500,000. In my opinion this is so outrageous
that it
should have been 2nd Place!

4th Place:

Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500. and

medical expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door
neighbor's beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced
yard.
The award was less than sought because the jury felt the dog might
have
been just a little provoked at the time by Mr. Williams who had climbed
over
the fence into the yard and was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet
gun.

3rd Place:

A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of
Lancaster, Pennsylvania, $113,500. after she slipped on a soft drink
and
broke her coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms.
Carson had thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an
argument.

2ndPlace:

Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner of
a
night club in a neighboring city when she fell from the bathroom
window to
the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms.
Walton was trying to sneak through the window in the ladies room to
avoid
paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental
expenses

1st Place:

This year's runaway winner was Mrs. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma
City,
Oklahoma. Mrs. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor
home.
On her first trip home, (from an OU football game), having driven onto
the
freeway, she set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the
driver's
seat to go into the back & make herself a sandwich. Not surprisingly,
the RV
left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Mrs. Grazinski sued Winnebago
for
not advising her in the owner's manual that she couldn't actually do
this.
The jury awarded her $1,750,000. plus a new motor home. The company
actually
changed their manuals on the basis of this suit, just in case there
were any
other complete morons around.

MK, I posted that email :)

Lauren,

Which one, the Stella awards or the email from Val about the CDC?

Are we agreed that some people just *shouldn't* breed?

Especially OU fans....

(PS my I have a friend who's a diehard OU fan, he would not find this funny)

And if there were NO abortion clinics would we really be giving woman a choice? And I think the fact that someone would have a child just because they didn't feel like driving a few hours to an abortion clinic is a horrible reason for having said child. It's saying, "I only had you because I was too lazy to abort." On the other hand I don't really think anyone would get pregnant because an abortion clinic was nearby. It would be a lot cheaper and easier to just not get pregnant.

Heather, I have not had sex two weeks now. So am I abstinate yet? Lol

The cdc one, MK. I just posted the statistcs, not the whole email.

I saw that...thanks.

That plus the morning after pill would do quite a number on the statistics.

Also, there is disparity between Guttmacher and the CDC.

AGI = Guttmacher Institute
CDC = Center for disease control
***number of abortions per year

(AGI) (CDC)
1973 744,600 * 615,831
1974 898,600 * 763,476
1975 1,034,200 * 854,853
1976 1,179,300 * 988,267
1977 1,316,700 * 1,079,430
1978 1,409,600 * 1,157,776
1979 1,497,700 * 1,251,921
1980 1,553,900 * 1,297,606
1981 1,577,300 * 1,300,760
1982 1,573,900 * 1,303,980
1983 1,575,000 * 1,268,987
1984 1,577,200 * 1,333,521
1985 1,588,600 * 1,328,570
1986 1,574,000 * 1,328,112
1987 1,559,100 * 1,353,671
1988 1,590,800 * 1,371,285
1989 1,566,900 * 1,396,658
1990 1,608,600 * 1,429,577
1991 1,556,388,937
1992 1,528,900 * 1.359,145
1993 1,500,000 * 1,330,414
1994 1,431,000 * 1,267,415
1995 1,363,690 * 1,210,883
1996 1,365,730 * 1,221,585
1997 1,365,730 * 1,186,039
1998 1,365,730 * 884,273*
1999 1,365,730 * 857,475**
2001 1,303,000& * 853,485**
2002 1,293,000&
2003 1,293,000&&
2004 1,293,000&&

&AGI estimate
&&NRLC base figure
*excludes NH, CA, AK, OK
**excludes NH, CA, AK

Abortions just aren't reported accurately...

I'm just glad no one else was hurt by the winnebago lady. What was she thinking?

"Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, was awarded $80,000. by a jury of her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was
running inside a furniture store. "

That is why toddlers should be kept in boxes.

"He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food."

In times like this we can only hope he gets food posioning and dies.

"Mr. Williams who had climbed over the fence into the yard and was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet gun."

So he really has no right to get upset if I run up to him and slap him with a used tampon.

"The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson had thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an argument."

I hope he dumped her.

"Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner ofa night club in a neighboring city when she fell from the bathroom window to the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. "

On the bright side she's toothless.

"Mrs. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor home."

Isn't it illegal for women to drive?

Elizabeth,

I have no doubt there was a great deal of misdiagnosis. Hearing impaired children would be misdiagnosed as retarded. Autistic children could easily be misdiagnosed as retarded. There was a time when children with anomolies of any kind would be put in institutions and kept a dark family secret, my cousin with Down's Syndrome being one of them. My friend who is a spec.ed teacher picked up a misdiagnosis on one of her students. The student had been diagnosed as retarded when she was in fact autistic, and intelligent.
High functioning autistics could have been labelled as "quirky" or "eccentric", but still manage to function in every day life. We've probably encountered plenty in our lifetime.
I think you would find Laura's post on the use of sonograms on animals and what she's observed as a result very interesting, if you haven't already read it.
I can only go by what I've observed over the years working in the medical area and studying psychology and autism in the early 1970's in college, a subject I found fascinating.
It may be as Rae suggests as well, over-diagnosis, which I believe to be the case with ADD and ADHD. It just seems to me a sudden increase in children who are severely autistic, children like the son of my friend who must be put into a group home now that he is older and his parents can no longer manage him. We just didn't see this number and severity years ago.

I read a study a while ago that said the morning after pill isn't effective at the population level. I.E. it doesn't actually prevent any abortions.

I just did a google and found a quote from one of the researchers. I'll try to track down the study, but I'm in the middle of moving so it might be a while!

"Our review is really about the effectiveness of advance provision as a strategy to reduce unintended pregnancy at a population level. The review is not about the effectiveness of EC; that is a separate matter", she explained.

In 2001, roughly 50 % of pregnancies in the US were unintended and there is an effort to lower them to 30 % by 2010. "Easier access to emergency contraception will not slow the rate of unintended pregnancy in the United States. For individual women, it is definitely a last chance to prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex. But it is not going to have a major population impact because people will never use it enough," said Princeton University demographer James Trussell.

Who knew you actually have to steer when you drive?

Mary,

I have to agree with you that autism is more prevalent these days. While it would be possible to overdiagnose ADD/ADHD because underdisciplined children can definitely appear ADHD, I think it would be harder to overdiagnose autism and is it a much more serious disease with very specific symptoms. When children throw things at their parents to get what they want and then are labeled ADHD, it's a cop out, but when a child doesn't speak by the time he's five, or spins objects or doesn't make eye contact, it's pretty hard to misdiagnose. Don't you think.

Also have you read where there is a disproportionate amount of autistic kids in the silicon valley?

In the Barretts' home state of California, for instance, the number of autistic children seeking social services has more than quadrupled in the past 15 years, from fewer than 4,000 in 1987 to nearly 18,000 today. So common are cases of Asperger's in Silicon Valley, in fact, that Wired magazine coined a cyber-age term for the disorder, referring to its striking combination of intellectual ability and social cluelessness as the "geek syndrome." Wired went on to make a provocative if anecdotal case that autism and Asperger's were rising in Silicon Valley at a particularly alarming rate — and asked whether "math-and-tech genes" might be to blame.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020506/scautism.html

I hate when parents give their four year olds coffee. It's like they're FOUR they don't need caffine!

Lauren,

I didn't mean the morning after pill...I do that a lot. I meant RU486...the abortion pill...sorry!

Jess,

No way! You know people who give their 4 year olds coffee? Is that before or after they smoke a joint with them? What are they, nuts?

Heather-
I am doing well, thanks for asking. I had a good week with the students. The 7th grade science teacher finally snapped though. Walked out in the middle of a class and said "I quit"

"What are they, nuts?"

Why yes mk, yes they are nuts.

MK,

Thank you for the additional info. Yes I did read that about Silicon Valley and have heard the argument about "math and tech genes". I frankly think its a crock. Laura presented a very interesting post on what she's observed in some animals who have had sonograms. I just have my strong suspicions, especially after reading what I have that sonograms may not be so safe and we are definitely overusing them on very fragile and developing fetuses at an earlier gestational age. Vaccines are another possiblity I'm open to.

Jess,

When I was four I used to sneak coffee out of my mother's cup. I love it, and still take it the way she did. I could NOT wait until I was old enough to drink it. I was allowed one cup at dinner when I turned 14. I was in 7th heaven.

When i was in college I watched a video about a family that had twin boys, but were autistic. The family had a third child. They were autistic too. They were terrified when they became pregnant for the fourth time. That child was not autistic. If i remember correctly the statistic for having an autistic child are 1 in 137 births.. something like that. If you have one child that is autistic it increases your chances of having a second. They are coming close to identifying what could be the cause of autism. I think they have some ideas. Possibly some foods...? Did you know that when autism first started to appear they blamed the mother. They said they didn't love the child enough. Pretty crazy huh?

Discover Magazine had an interesting article about autism a couple of months ago too.

Well I have a few errands to run. ciao!

They *always* blame the mother!

JM,

If I recall it was some psychologist or psychiatrist named Bettelheim, known affectionately later on as Beetlemind, who blamed the mother for autism. In fact mothers were blamed for mental illness as well. The father could be a real skunk but that was beside the point, it had to be something the mother did.
How many mothers tormented themselves needlessly over autistic and mentally ill children because of this mentality?

test

Mary,
I agree completely. I can't even imagine what it must have felt like!

It seems pretty obvious to me that the more PP's around the less unintended and therefore less unwanted pregnancies resulting in abortion will abound.
It's as obvious as the nose on your face but you'd rather obsess about that wart on your nose. Not pretty but a natural outcome of having human skin that can be invaded by a wart.

JM,
"They are coming close to identifying what could be the cause of autism. I think they have some ideas. Possibly some foods...?"

I have heard that when autistic children are taken off wheat products they have seen a noticeable difference...
http://www.autismweb.com/diet.htm

Sally,

It might seem obvious but that hasn't been the case. I pointed out in a previous post that PP has been increasing the number of abortions it does. Obviously its doing nothing effective to stop unplanned pregnancies.
I mentioned also that for the past 20 plus years we have been told by PP their methods would curb unwanted pregnancies. Don't you remember the days when PP president Faye Wattleton was a media darling, forever fawned over by the media or are you too young? If ever there was a time PP was getting its message out,it was then. So why do we still have unplanned pregnancies and why hasn't the number of abortions performed at PP clinics decreased by now?

Also, if abortion truly solved anything, why isn't it uncommon to see women who keep returning to the abortion clinic? Now a days it's not uncommon to meet a woman who's had more than one abortion. I'm sure that all of the pro lifers here know at LEAST 1 woman personally who's had an abortion. I find this very sad.

Posted by: heather at September 15, 2007 11:03 AM

Now a days? I have a cousin who still in high school back in the late 70s confided in me that she had 2 abortions. I asked what she was doing for BC and she said nothing. Her mother might find it and punish her.
While you might enjoy the idea of my cousin being punished by being forced to gestate, I find it perfectly understandable that a child would rather risk the need for an abortion than have the 'sex talk' with a fundie Christian parent berating them til the end of time for having sex before the parent gave their 'blessing'.

Stephanie, you seem to have missed the point. We were asked to give the pro-choice reasons why PP is good when PP building a clinic increases abortions in a city, and pro-choice folks supposedly want abortion to be "rare".

And so I gave the four pro-choice reasons. You, being pro-choice, more or less agreed with my first two reasons.

As for my last two reasons, you said I was being "sarcastic" when I said that pro-choice folks are disingenuous about why abortion should be "rare". Why in the world should abortion be rare if abortion is benign? Abortion can only be justified if the fetus is not a living human being, and if it isn't, who cares how many abortions there are?

My final reason was typical pro-choice argumentation. Comparing pro-lifers with terrorists, the Taliban, Nazis, etc is a normal, common pro-choice "argument". It's a way of changing the subject.

@Erin: It doesn't matter what "good" things that they do, they still kill children. Mengele did some fascinating twin studies and discovered many new surgical procedures, but let's ignore the thousands of people he tortured and killed in order to obtain that information.

Rae, EXCELLENT point!

BTW, Where have you been? Or have I just missed your posts, since I haven't been posting as much as usual? I hope that you're enjoying your new place (did you move in yet? I can't remember). :) Hope you're doing well!

John, you wrote : "Abortion can only be justified if the fetus is not a living human being"

That's wrong. Abortion can be justified EVEN IF the fetus is a living human being.

"As quality of birth control increases, abortions will go down."

"PP is working to prevent abortions. How on earth do they increase an abortion? When there's a new clinic, abortions in that area would probably go up, yes, but it'll go down at a different location."

" Safe, legal and rare- and with numbers dropping, it's becoming more rare."

..yea, those numbers are really going down

The fact is, even with birth-control becoming more widely available, the percentage of woman having abortions had virtuly stayed the same. Installing more death mills isn't going to help, just like installing more crack houses isn't going to reduce crack addicts.

Alan Keyes to the rescue (Hat tip: Instapundit)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57661

"Abortion can be justified EVEN IF the fetus is a living human being."

only in the eyes of the devil.

The abortion rate will continue going down REGARDLESS of whether or not new clinics open, because the baby-boom is aging past its reproductive years.

No, Jasper. Being a human person does not entitle the fetus to remain inside its mother's body without her continuing consent.

Heavenly Father, in Your love for us, protect against the wickedness of the devil, those helpless little ones to whom You have given the gift of life. Touch with pity the hearts of those women pregnant in our world today who are not thinking of motherhood. Help them to see that the child they carry is made in Your image -- as well as theirs -- made for eternal life. Dispel their fear and selfishness and give them true womanly hearts to love their babies and give them birth and all the needed care that a mother alone can give. We ask this through Jesus Christ, Your Son, Our Lord, Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, on God, forever and ever, Amen.

With a goo goo goo
And a gah gah gah

My final reason was typical pro-choice argumentation. Comparing pro-lifers with terrorists, the Taliban, Nazis, etc is a normal, common pro-choice "argument". It's a way of changing the subject.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at September 15, 2007 10:03 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course!
...And the Aurora clinic was installing bullet-proof glass just in case militant Girl Scouts launched a violent cookie jihad.

(I sort of enjoyed the thin mint fatwa. Tall glass of ice tea, YUMMY!)

jasper, A most excellent point about the crack houses! I loved it. jess, good for you. I am proud of you!! Try to stay that way. You have a bight future ahead of you as a pro LIFER! Laura, I hated your cyber guts when you first came here. Sometimes you let the real you shine through. I just loved your Budweiser/horse video!! I'm rather glad you've stayed. I used to have a thoroughbred. I also love horses. Laura, I just wish you would care about unborn children as much as you do your beloved animals. Perhaps one day we'll help you to see.????

One of my biggest issues this year is health care.

The most outrageous comment I have heard so far on the subject:

"The thing is, when we start caring for the poor, the rich might not get much better treatment than anyone else."

Though these have very nearly taken the cake:

"I just hate obese people. They are part of the problem. I mean, it's all about self-control."
[to which a friend's reply came: Well, A---, you don't help your case by snickering at fat people while handling an alcohol problem yourself"]

Statement: "Capitalism is the only thing that works."
Rebuttle: "Even in matters like giving everybody decent health care in a civilized society?"
S: "Of course. Nothing should ever be socialized. Look at Europe. Not many of those countries are truly standing, except maybe Sweden and Finland."
R: "You do know that free education and health care are provided in Finland by having bigger taxes, right?"
S: "Well, I'd have to take a closer look at the figures."

"Our health care system is fine. I mean, when there is a true emergency, the ER has to take them right?"

"I hate the fact that the government helps pay people who are disabled and don't have jobs. If you can walk you can work. Even if you can't walk, you can probably press buttons on a keyboard."

"There is no excuse for not going to college or getting a job where there is health insurance. I don't get paid that well to go to college because I am a rich, white male. I'm sure you will get enough if you are poor enough."
["even if they don't have enough money to even cover leftover expenses given they might not get an academic scholarship?" "Well they can get a job with health insurance if they really want to"]

"It's called bootstraps. Pull them. Look at that Will Smith guy in that movie. He can do it, everyone who can't is just lazy. Get your a-- up and go to work."

With a goo goo goo
And a gah gah gah

SoMG,

That's the most intelligent thing you've ever said on this site...

Hey Laura,

Look! The Herman's Hermits really were in Aurora!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIUV4Ilqafo

MK, LOL! PIP, what are the odds? I was just thinking of you and the Dave Chappell videos. Got one handy? I need a good laugh!

"Wired went on to make a provocative if anecdotal case that autism and Asperger's were rising in Silicon Valley at a particularly alarming rate � and asked whether "math-and-tech genes" might be to blame."

@Mary: I think to an extent, that it's probably true that "math and tech" geeks are more likely to be autistic or have Asperger's because of the social problems. A lot of the "math and tech" geeks are very socially inept, and so their kids aren't "socialized" properly and they learn the same poor social skills and are thus diagnosed as "autistic" or "Asperger's". There is also the little bit with Asperger's where they have obsessive tendencies about certain topics (like math or something) to the point where they are almost a savant at that topic yet they couldn't have a conversation with somebody.

Anywho. It's possible there is a "link" but it may not necessarily be a "causative" one. If anything, it's a correlation.

"Rae, EXCELLENT point!

BTW, Where have you been? Or have I just missed your posts, since I haven't been posting as much as usual? I hope that you're enjoying your new place (did you move in yet? I can't remember). :) Hope you're doing well! "

@Bethany: I have moved into my apartment. I haven't been posting as much because I don't have internet in my apartment so I can only be on a short period of time during the day (often when I'm at the lab), so I don't post as much. That and I got a little sick of the liberal/atheist/agnostic/deist bashing that goes on, so I did take a break.

Anywho, I'm doing fine, my classes are going well and my apartment is not as bad as I was thinking it was going to be. It gets a little lonely at times because I honestly don't have any "real-life" friends, they're all online and with no internet, I have no way of communicating. I'm at my parent's house right now, and I plan to...borrow...the camera so I can take a few snapshots of the apartment so y'all can see my home away from home. :D

How have you been lately?

Rae,

A good point. Thanks.

John, you wrote : "Abortion can only be justified if the fetus is not a living human being"

SoMG: That's wrong. Abortion can be justified EVEN IF the fetus is a living human being.

There isn't any "justification" needed, in the first place. Not every pregnancy is wanted - that's the bottom line; and it's up to the woman who is pregnant.

Doug

Statement: "Capitalism is the only thing that works."
Rebuttle: "Even in matters like giving everybody decent health care in a civilized society?"
S: "Of course. Nothing should ever be socialized. Look at Europe. Not many of those countries are truly standing, except maybe Sweden and Finland."
R: "You do know that free education and health care are provided in Finland by having bigger taxes, right?"
S: "Well, I'd have to take a closer look at the figures."

........

PIP - interesting stuff. I don't see anything "wrong" per se with the "European" way - but it's one choice among many.

I would say that capitalism works the best, due to human nature. When we really go for the "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability," then most individuals don't find nearly so much incentive to produce, resulting in a lot less to go around.

Pure capitalism certainly leads to its own "excesses." There isn't going to be even distribution of wealth - capital tends to accumulate in the hands of the few, not the many. Eventually the populace gets bummed out, and more socialistic legislation comes forth. The markets and economic systems are studies in human emotion going from one extreme to the other, and there is always change at work, even if at a slow pace.

Doug

Get ready for this, Heather!

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjO1cKBiXeE

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZtZV2a2_Tg

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJrlA0dQg8c

4.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9T7beIAo3I

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7cqww5fsaY

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6rOEybSuH0

7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMhibfbmTSA

8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ygJEgBRGlw

9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Hf6L1eQBc

10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCCjFbFXn8

11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJGcrUk2eE

12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjXkYjHADk0

Here's the thing doug,

We dont' have to adopt a complete system, just the good things about each one that fit with our culture. We can find a way to blend capitalist elements while providing everyone with health care.

Capitalism has to be moderated, or the world will turn into "The Jungle" again. Have you read that book? Yikes.

We dont' have to adopt a complete system, just the good things about each one that fit with our culture. We can find a way to blend capitalist elements while providing everyone with health care.

Capitalism has to be moderated, or the world will turn into "The Jungle" again. Have you read that book? Yikes.

PIP, yes indeed, and obviously in practice our brand of capitalism is quite restrained.

Yeah, read the book in high school..

I wish everybody had health insurance, but question how good a job the gov't would do in providing it. Seems to me that when the gov't does something, it's usually much more inefficent and expensive that it has to be.

Doug

The private companies aren't doing a great job. They run for profit. Their job is to turn you down when they can.

PIP, thanks! Gotta run....I'm late for work. I'll watch them later.............

There isn't any "justification" needed, in the first place. Not every pregnancy is wanted - that's the bottom line; and it's up to the woman who is pregnant.

There isn't any "justification" possible, in the last place. Not every pregnancy is wanted - but every pregnancy does involve a human life. The bottom line; it's up to the women that don't want to be pregnant not to get pregnant in the first place, and to own up to their carelessness if they do.

Heather,

I hope you enjoy them. There are several different comedians/skits there so you can enjoy a variety of humor, but I must warn you, my sense of humor is very irreverent :)

"There isn't any "justification" needed, in the first place. Not every pregnancy is wanted - that's the bottom line; and it's up to the woman who is pregnant."

MK: There isn't any "justification" possible, in the last place.

A moot point.

......

Not every pregnancy is wanted - but every pregnancy does involve a human life. The bottom line; it's up to the women that don't want to be pregnant not to get pregnant in the first place, and to own up to their carelessness if they do.

Nope, same deal, MK - somebody else's decision to end a pregnancy doesn't need to be cleared with you, and they don't owe you any "owning up." Yes, human life is there, but that does not mean that the pregnancy has to be continued. It's up to the woman to not get pregnant, or to get pregnant, and if the pregnancy is unwanted then it can be ended.

Doug

Rae: Erin: How can PP be doing more abortions, but the abortion rate hasn't increased? I suck at statistics...

There may be different things under consideration. There is the raw number, where more is simply "more," and then there is the rate per number of people (or the given chance that the average individual will have an abortion), which doesn't necessarily tend to increase with a higher population.

Doug

Doug,

Nope, same deal, MK - somebody else's decision to end a pregnancy doesn't need to be cleared with you, and they don't owe you any "owning up." Yes, human life is there, but that does not mean that the pregnancy has to be continued. It's up to the woman to not get pregnant, or to get pregnant, and if the pregnancy is unwanted then it can be ended.

Are you saying that's how it is or that's how it should be...

Because obviously that's what the law says now, but only a person with a seared conscience would say that's how it should be.

Doug,

Aren't you supposed to be getting drunk with grandma?

"but I must warn you, my sense of humor is very irreverent :)"

@PiP: Have you ever watched Eddie Izzard?

Hello my Rae,

How goes all things? I miss hearing from you. I miss you. I miss. Imus in the morning. Imus be suffering from a schizophrenic moment. Imus going to shut up now...

Lol @ MK

You are silleh. :D I'm doing pretty good. I just bought the new Birthday Massacre album, and oooooh, so far so good. I'm at home right now for a bit (came home to do laundry). I tried to do a li'l clothing shopping but man was that depressing! I couldn't find ANYTHING!

How are you? What have you been up to? My puppy says hi. :)

Rae,

What puppy? The one at your moms house? The little Pom?

I have to get something to wear for a wedding next week and I'm sick. First off most of the clothes out there are more revealing than what Britney wore on Jill's video...second, after six kids, the tummy sort of hangs to the knees and anything with waist that fits is made for the fat lady at the circus. My gut is the only thing huge on me. Oh and my feet! I have no chest, so I'd have to stuff most waist fitting dresses with cateloupes!

I hate clothes. Hey, that's it! I'll go naked!

Nah, that would mean nobody could eat, and it would be a sin to waste that much food...

what to do, what to do!

PS When did the dog learn to talk?

@MK: He's a very smart dog, for a pom (I consider most pomeranians to be the "blondes" of the dog world). Tee-hee.

My problem with finding clothes is that I gain all my weight in my tummy, and even with surgery I still have a very large...chest region. I can't wear button down shirts because the size that fits every where else (chiefly in the tummy and shoulder regions) don't fit in the chest region (it puckers and the button looks like it's about to fly off). Arrrrrrgh.

I would go nekkid too, but that would be against everybody's favorite 10th Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". :-p

But think of it this way, if nobody would eat that food, it means more for you! I kid, I kid (though I don't like sharing my chocolate oatmeal cookies...).

Okay,

so here's what we'll do...
You give me some of your extra chest region, and I'll give you my chocolate oatmeal cookies...now, what size shoe do you wear?

Oh and I'll throw in my dog...she's smart as anything. But pees on the rug and attacks other dogs (we'll tell her your pom is a cat)...

Did I mention that I have a son...never mind.

@MK: I wear a size 7 shoe. I can't have a dog at my apartment, no pets allowed (though I do have a "Chia pet" hahahahaha). :(

I'm gonna take pictures of the apartment tonight, they'll be on my art website by tomorrow.

Yeah...about the picture not the shoe size...

I wear an 11, but if you tell anyone, I'll deny it!
So can I give you a shoe size or two...?

Does the Chia pet talk? We can always cover Gracie with grass seed and tell your landlord she's the worlds largest Chia pet! Heck we can cover Danny with grass seed too. Probably be an improvement! Did I mention he pees on the rug too? Oooooh, I promised him I'd never tell anyone that...pretend I didn't say anything.

*snicker*

In all honesty, it's not even an animal or head Chia Pet. It's a tree.

I think I could use slightly larger feet, small feet are muy mal.

Oooooh! I found an X-Files episode! Wheeee!

Rae--

Of course! I plan on buying his stand up soon.

@PiP: Get "Dressed to Kill" and "Glorious". Those are examples of his best stuff. ^_^

Rae--

Dressed to Kill is on my Amazon wish list.

I have not heard of glorious.

is it any good?

"Nope, same deal, MK - somebody else's decision to end a pregnancy doesn't need to be cleared with you, and they don't owe you any "owning up." Yes, human life is there, but that does not mean that the pregnancy has to be continued. It's up to the woman to not get pregnant, or to get pregnant, and if the pregnancy is unwanted then it can be ended."

Are you saying that's how it is or that's how it should be...

That's a matter of opinion - yours against that of the woman who is actually pregnant. I go with the opinion of the woman who is actually pregnant, not you.

......

Because obviously that's what the law says now, but only a person with a seared conscience would say that's how it should be.

Wrong. That you feel a compulsion to have the will of the woman subverted to your will is the "searing," if any is present.

Doug

MK: Doug, Aren't you supposed to be getting drunk with grandma?

Well, she's 70 years old and doesn't really get hammered....but still, done that a couple times already - fear not.

Doug

Wrong. That you feel a compulsion to have the will of the woman subverted to your will is the "searing," if any is present.

It's not about our will - their will, Doug. It's about a human individual who's life is at stake.

What you're saying is like saying to someone who opposes rape, "That you feel a compulsion to have the will of a man who feels the need to rape, to be subverted to your will, is "searing"."

Rae:

@Bethany: I have moved into my apartment. I haven't been posting as much because I don't have internet in my apartment so I can only be on a short period of time during the day (often when I'm at the lab), so I don't post as much. That and I got a little sick of the liberal/atheist/agnostic/deist bashing that goes on, so I did take a break.

Well I'm glad to see you back whenever you get the chance! :) We miss you when you're away! :)

Anywho, I'm doing fine, my classes are going well and my apartment is not as bad as I was thinking it was going to be. It gets a little lonely at times because I honestly don't have any "real-life" friends, they're all online and with no internet, I have no way of communicating.

Rae, I know the feeling. It's the same for me as well. I'm sorry you're getting really lonely. Have you been drawing a lot lately? Before I had kids and I was staying at home all day, I would spend hours upon hours just drawing and drawing.

I'm at my parent's house right now, and I plan to...borrow...the camera so I can take a few snapshots of the apartment so y'all can see my home away from home. :D

I am looking forward to seeing the pictures! :)

How have you been lately?

I've been doing really good...just been busy painting...and tomorrow I've got voice lessons and have to go to the pregnancy center.

Noah's in the bathtub calling my name, so I guess I gotta run! :P

"Wrong. That you feel a compulsion to have the will of the woman subverted to your will is the "searing," if any is present."

Bethany: It's not about our will - their will, Doug. It's about a human individual who's life is at stake.

Yes it is, Bethany. Your will is that abortion be banned or further restricted. If that was not the case, you wouldn't be arguing.

.....

What you're saying is like saying to someone who opposes rape, "That you feel a compulsion to have the will of a man who feels the need to rape, to be subverted to your will, is "searing"."

Nope. Is the rapist inside the body of the rapee? Of course not. Is a woman (or man) who could be raped a thinking, feeling person? Of course, and no doubt about it.

Doug

Bethany: It's not about our will - their will, Doug. It's about a human individual who's life is at stake.

Yes it is, Bethany. Your will is that abortion be banned or further restricted. If that was not the case, you wouldn't be arguing.

So if I was to argue that it was wrong to rape a woman, I would merely be arguing my will against the rapists will, and not right vs. wrong?
Baloney.

Nope. Is the rapist inside the body of the rapee? Of course not.

It's your valuation that that makes a difference.

Is a woman (or man) who could be raped a thinking, feeling person? Of course, and no doubt about it.

It's your valuation that that matters.

Bethany: It's not about our will - their will, Doug. It's about a human individual who's life is at stake.

"Yes it is, Bethany. Your will is that abortion be banned or further restricted. If that was not the case, you wouldn't be arguing."

So if I was to argue that it was wrong to rape a woman, I would merely be arguing my will against the rapists will, and not right vs. wrong?
Baloney.

Nope, didn't say that. First of all, in your example there is the will of the woman to consider, and it's not a case of either being inside the body of a person. If you are looking for right and wrong that is external to your or my perception - we can see what society's position is, or the opinion of various groups, etc.

......

Nope. Is the rapist inside the body of the rapee? Of course not.

"It's your valuation that that makes a difference."

Agreed, and the same for many people and the same for society and every society on earth for all time, as far as I know.

.....

"Is a woman (or man) who could be raped a thinking, feeling person? Of course, and no doubt about it."

It's your valuation that that matters.

Sure, and certainly it matters - the Birth Standard is age-old, even though I grant that you and others don't like it. And while we can argue about sentience or not for the unborn at various stages of gestation, with the woman it's not in doubt, and in general we want people to have liberty, not to suffer, etc.