150 years ago it became known as Bloody Kansas for violence erupting between pro-choice slavery supporters of the Kansas-Nebraska Act and anti-slavery abolitionists.

Now the state known as the abortion capital of the world thanks to infamous late-term abortionist George Tiller is at the center of identical opposing ideologies, erupting in nationwide warfare against the US's largest preborn baby killer, Planned Parenthood.

Columnist Robert Novak reported today....

National anti-abortion leaders Wednesday put finishing touches on a letter to be sent to all members of Congress urging suspension of more than $300 million in federal funding of Planned Parenthood until a massive criminal case brought in Kansas against the abortion rights organization is settled. That launches an attack against the nation's largest purveyor of "reproductive health care" - including abortions.

On Oct. 16, Kansas District Judge James F. Vano in suburban Kansas City reviewed a 107-count grand jury indictment against Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri Inc. and decided there was probable cause to proceed. Allegations of unlawful late-term abortions and other abortion-connected crimes were brought by Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline, a pro-life hero nationally who is viewed as a fanatic by abortion rights advocates. The prosecution alleges violation of state and federal laws and falsification of documents to justify it.

This opens a new front in the endless abortion wars. The offensive against abortion now takes dead aim at Planned Parenthood and attempts to expand a Kansas criminal prosecution into a nationwide assault....

[A]nti-abortion strategists are aiming at Planned Parenthood and its 860 facilities nationwide. Concerned Women for America and other pro-life organizations signed this week's letter to members of Congress asking for suspension of more than $300 million in federal funding, about one-third of the organization's budget.

While the Democratic-controlled Congress surely will not defund Planned Parenthood, it will be pressed to fulfill its oversight mission with congressional hearings. The socially conservative Family Research Council called Wednesday for a Justice Department investigation. And Republican presidential candidates - who proceed gingerly on abortion -- will be called to combat in this war.

Trigger

Per the Associated Press, October 17:

Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline charged the Overland Park, Kan., [Planned Parenthood] clinic with 107 counts, 23 of them felonies. Besides 29 misdemeanor counts of providing unlawful late-term abortions, the clinic is charged with multiple counts of making a false writing, failure to maintain records and failure to determine viability.

Added the Kansas City Star, October 17:

After Kline filed the complaint Wednesday, District Judge James F. Vano found probable cause for the charges, a step that allows the case to proceed. Planned Parenthood is scheduled to appear in court Nov. 16.

The specific charges, according to the Kansas City Star, October 17:

23 felony counts: Submitting false pregnancy termination reports.

26 misdemeanors: Failing to maintain termination reports.

29 misdemeanors: Failing to perform viability tests on fetuses.

29 misdemeanors: Unlawful late-term abortion....

The 23 felony counts filed Wednesday allege that Planned Parenthood submitted false pregnancy termination reports to a court on Aug. 21 in response to a subpoena. Planned Parenthood said the reports were copies of original reports kept in patient files and sent to the state, the district attorney’s office alleges.

Twenty-six misdemeanor counts allege that Planned Parenthood failed to maintain termination reports for 26 cases from 2003.

The clinic also is accused of performing illegal late-term abortions in those same cases and in three others that took place that year, accounting for 29 misdemeanor counts. Those abortions allegedly were done without a finding that they were medically necessary.

Kline also filed 29 misdemeanor counts accusing Planned Parenthood of failing to perform viability tests on the fetuses.

Added ABC News in an otherwise terribly biased story, October 22:

[W]omen's reproductive rights activists are beginning to wonder whether Kline might deliver a big blow to abortion rights not only in Kansas but across the country.

Other related outbursts

... against LS AG Paul Morrison. The Kansas City Star reported October 22:

Now that Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline has filed charges against Planned Parenthood, three Johnson County lawmakers want to know why charges weren’t filed earlier. They submitted a letter Monday to Attorney General Paul Morrison asking him to explain why he cleared Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri of any criminal wrongdoing.

Last week, using the same records available to Morrison, Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline filed charges - 107 counts in all - alleging that Planned Parenthood's Overland Park clinic falsified, forged and failed to maintain records and performed illegal late-term abortions.

Rep. Ben Hodge, an Overland Park Republican, and Reps. Rob Olson and Mike Kiegerl, both Olathe Republicans, submitted the letter Monday.

... against the liberal media. Brent Bozell, president of Media Research Center, wrote yesterday:

As much as liberals decry major corporations that act as if they're above the law, there's always quiet when the subject is Planned Parenthood, America's No. 1 corporate provider of abortions. During its 2005-2006 fiscal year, the Planned Parenthood Federation of America performed a record 264,943 abortions, reported a tidy profit of $55.8 million — and received a record high in taxpayer funding of $305.3 million.

This is one corporation the media hold in the highest regard.....

[T]he press studiously avoids scrutiny of its liberal sacred cows — or focuses its guns on that person who would dare to get in their way. They'd lionize a state official attacking crisis-pregnancy centers that try to talk women out of abortions. But investigate the abortion industry, and you're a national disgrace....

Planned Parenthood is a formidable force in national (and state) politics. One major reason is networks like ABC, news outlets that don't really care whether this corporation plays by the rules, as long as the abortion assembly line keeps running.

... against Planned Parenthood of Overland Park (KS) by another route. Reported the Kansas City Star, October 21:

Organizers of a petition effort seeking a grand jury investigation of Planned Parenthood of Overland Park allege wrongdoing beyond the charges filed last week by District Attorney Phill Kline.

What's more, they say, the work of a grand jury could have national implications. They contend the Overland Park clinic is breaking the law and what is happening there probably is happening at all Planned Parenthood clinics....

On Sept. 30, [Troy] Newman announced that Operation Rescue was teaming up with two other groups to start a petition drive to seat a grand jury in Johnson County....

The petition alleges wrongdoing in other areas. Like Kline, they allege that the clinic is performing illegal abortions and providing false information to government officials. The organizers also allege that the clinic fails to report suspected child abuse, that it participates in the illegal trafficking of fetal tissue, that it fails to comply with parental consent requirements and that it fails to enforce the required 24-hour waiting period.

Planned Parenthood has not yet recovered from its PR hemorrhage thanks to the ongoing fight against the Aurora Planned Parenthood as well as the revelation this summer that 41-year-old Adam Gault's 15-year-old kidnap victim got an abortion at Planned Parenthood in West Hartford, CT, in May without its apparently notifying authorities of suspected sexual abuse.

[Photo credits: Bloody Kansas scene, National Constitution Center; Phill Kline, ABC News]

Good grief, they will label anyone who is against abortion, a PL fanatic. @@

Explain to me why falisfying records is a felony, while killing 29 viable babies is a misdemeanor...

Here is a copy of the charges filed:

http://da.jocogov.org/documents/Planned%20Parenthood%20Complaint.pdf

I think something very important to remember about all of this is that this is the very same Planned Parenthood that is fighting being an Ambulatory Surgical Center. They maintain that it would cost them 2 million (or was it 1.5 million, no wait its well over 2 million, no wait it will be 1 million - it depends on what newpaper article you read how much it would cost, even though the newpapers interview the same few people) to make the standards of an ASC. They said this money was ONLY for building updates to meet the standards. Even though the only building standards that are in the Code of Federal Regulations title 42, Public Health, Part 416 Ambulatory Surgical Services only states that the building must meet fire code standards. So, Planned Parenthood doesn't even meet fire code standards? or is it that they don't want to be forced to keep appropriate medical records and have qualified people performing the jobs of their qualifications instead of unqualified people doing something they have no clue about?

The TRUTH about PP's operations are coming out of the woodwork.....and they (PP and their allies) don't like it one bit...

Pro-choice slavery supporters. How true. People were fully witin their legal rights to make the choice to own a slave, what gave anyone the right to tell them they couldn't? If slavery was against your moral or religous beliefs, no one was forcing you to own a slave were they?
Imagine the nerve of those abolitionists, feminists, and underground railroad people trying to force their morality on others!

Imagine the nerve of those abolitionists, feminists, and underground railroad people trying to force their morality on others!

I love you, Mary!

To All,

I will be in Aurora Saturday for the big rally...if any of you are going to be there and would like to connect (I believe Jill will be there too), just email me and we'll pick a rendezvous spot!

Wait, I am confused. What does slavery and abortion have to do with eachother?

MK: I'll be in Sin City USA this weekend (NOLA) haveing a blast!

Jacquie,

I posted some more Ron Paul stuff on that post.
(Keep in mind I'm not supporting him...just not ruling him out)

I basically knew nothing about him till that post.
Let me know what you think...I value your opinion.

Want to skip the rally and come party with me in New Orleans??

It'll be fun!!

Valerie,

An excellent post. Would any other facility, be it a veterinary clinic, tattoo parlor, or the local restaurant, be able to whine and cry about the costs of meeting state standards? Does the state care if its going to cost or if they consider the standards unreasonable? If you can't meet the standards, you're SOL. Close down until you can.
As a member of the public, I find it very reassuring that there are standards that must be met and maintained at all times. I personally don't care about the cost or inconvenience to anyone. By the way that applies to me in licensing and recertification costs in order for me to practice.

About qualified people. They cost money. Tiller has gotten away with uncredentialled people supervising patient care and administering drugs. Isn't there some licensing and regulation board in Kansas? Under any other circumstances this would be unthinkable. Your veterinarian wouldn't get away with this kind of shoddy practice, yet this is an acceptable standard for women?

Midnite,

I'm reading a trashy novel about New Orleans as we speak! Have fun, but no thanks. One of the few places in the US I have NO desire to visit...although those cemeteries do fascinate me.
But I can see awesome cemeteries in South Carolina.

Jasper,

I haven't told you in awhile how impressed I am with your quotes of the day...excellent job!

Phill Kline already got himself SERIOUSLY demoted and humiliated.
He won't quit until he's unemployed and poverty-stricken.

Obessive-compulsives are SO annoying.

Aw, MK you're no fun! The cemeteries in South Carolina do not compare to the ones in New Orleans. I cant believe you've never visited there! It is fascinating with all the history!

History, casino's, and Bourbon Street, ooooh I am SOOOOO excited!

Interesting how the ABC story doesn't really discuss the merit or lack of merit of the charges filed.

The whole thing is a profile of Kline.

Let's see if they write an article on the actual topic of the charges themselves.

Laura,

Tell me about this "serious" demotion and how it came about...

Aw, MK you're no fun

AM TOO! Why just yesterday, I cleaned out my closet!

"Why just yesterday, I cleaned out my closet!"

You're too wild for me, MK.

Phill Kline already got himself SERIOUSLY demoted and humiliated.
He won't quit until he's unemployed and poverty-stricken.

Obessive-compulsives are SO annoying.

Posted by: Laura at October 25, 2007 9:26 AM

Some people just don't follow the crowd.

Yeah, you probably would not have fun in New Orleans, but at least I invited you :-)

I am still going to come to Chicago at some point. Might wait until it warms up a bit. I am a Southerner by birth after all, and don't I don't do so well in extreme cold temperatures..

Midnite,

Slavery and abortion, as well as civil rights and the Vietnam War were, or are now, pressing moral issues. They were emotionally charged and very divisive. While people whine about abortion dividing our nation this is certainly nothing new.
People on both sides were determined about the rightness of their causes. In the case of slavery, one group of human beings, if you even agreed they were human, were denied rights and viewed as the possessions of another. One could say the same about abortion. Even in the civil rights era, you had the mentality that one group of people, African Americans, weren't quite equal, were subhuman, or at least in no way equal to whites, and thus could also be denied their rights. Even killings were acceptable since these blacks weren't for certain equal to whites and certainly didn't have rights or legal protection.

Jacqueline, 9:15AM

Thank you!! I'm glad someone does.

I am still going to come to Chicago at some point. Might wait until it warms up a bit. I am a Southerner by birth after all, and don't I don't do so well in extreme cold temperatures

The door is always open...except of course for when the heat is on...but just knock or ring the bell!

Bobby,

You're too wild for me, MK.

You should see me clean a toilet! look out!

Some people just don't follow the crowd.

Posted by: hippie at October 25, 2007 9:36 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kansas has serious meth and gang issues (I'm not kidding. It's like Arkansas...)
Kansas has violent crime.
Why is this moron, Kline, spending all his time on victimless paprwork misdemeanors?
He already lost one job in disgrace. It's time he lost another.

Laura,

Tell me about this "serious" demotion and how it came about...

Posted by: mk at October 25, 2007 9:33 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He was voted out of office and replaced by a militantly pro-choice Attorney General. People were tired of Kline wasting the Attorney General's Office on trivial crap like clinic paperwork issues.

hehehehe

MK: I am about to die in B'ham right now, it is 49 degrees and I am FREEZING!!

I know that it is even colder in Chicago (probably right now) during the winter, so I shall wait until it is Spring and not so cold. I like having my "Southern Glow" and I think the cold weather in the north would kill it...

MK,

According to the article by Novak cited above by Jill, here is how Kline got himself demoted.

Kline's vigorous prosecution of alleged abortion offenses made him the principal national target of the abortion industry.

It pumped an estimated $1.5 million into the 2006 campaign for attorney general of Paul Morrison, the pro-choice Republican Johnson County district attorney who turned Democratic to run against Kline. Tiller contributed $121,000 to his ProKanDo PAC, which spent $322,680 in the campaign against Kline. An affiliated nonprofit group, Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection, spent more than $400,000 on ''educational mailings'' obviously aimed against Kline.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

$2.5 million for AG in Kansas? Why spend so much money if the charges are baseless? The judge would just throw it out.

midnite,

do you work at an abortion clinic?

How did the public know that Kline was wasting time and resources investigating clinics?

I am not informed about every action taken by my state's attorney general. How can I get tired of him wasting time and resources if I don't know about it?

Laura wrote:
Why is this moron, Kline, spending all his time on victimless paprwork misdemeanors?

Then Laura wrote:
trivial crap like clinic paperwork issues

Once again Laura provides entertaining posts, and insight into proabort thinking. Keep posting Laura, you are too amusing.

Laura,

How do you know that Kline isn't persuing cases against gangs and meth labs/traffickers? Do you get updates from the Johnson County DA's office?

What makes you think it takes all his time to file one case?

So the man was a hero, and went down for our cause and this makes you think he was humiliated?

Okay, I think I've got the scenario now...thanks Laura.

And thank you, Hippie.

Abortion is victimless? Malachi would disagree with you:

For the sake of his sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Amen, Bobby.

PP first says it believes in the good judgement of Kansas citizens and then goes on to say that it is seeking to block enforcement of a law passed by those same Kansas citizens.

"This matter is in the hands of the court, and Planned Parenthood has immense confidence in the integrity of an independent judiciary in Johnson County and the good judgment of the Kansas citizens."

"Planned Parenthood Fights New Abortion Regulations
Seeks Injunctive Relief from Federal Court

Kansas City, MO – Today, Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri went to court to protect women's access to abortion care in Missouri. In a brief filed in Federal court, the health care agency asked for an injunction to stop a state law from being enforced against its health centers while the court decides if the law is constitutional."

http://www.ppkm.org/

Jasper:

That is about the most idiotic question you have ever asked me.

No, I do not. I work at a Limousine Company in B'ham, AL.

Do you work at an abortion clinic smart ____?

Okay, I see my mistake. They respect the judgement of Kansas citizens not Missouri citizens. Sorry for the error.

Question to our resident pro-choicers:

Can you look at Malachi's sweet little face and say,

"I supported the choice to dismember you."

How you, now, after seeing Malachi identify themselves as pro[that]choice?

If yes, how do you rationalize this to yourself?

The tax cuts combined with the war are about $1 trillion. Before that we were 2 trillion in the hole, now we are almost $9 trillion in the hole. So of course the tax cuts are not all of it.

"Those figures don't jive with reality. The $9 billion sounds like it takes some unfunded liabilities into account, while the $2 billion does not."

Hard as it may be for any of us to say the word trillions in relation to debt. The numbers I gave are indeed trillions.

:: copiously smacking self upside the head :: Sorry about that, Hippie - yes, trillions for sure.
......

I don't have figures anymore. I am quoting a group of congressmen calling themselves Blue Dog Democrats. They wrote a letter to the editor of the Wall Street Journal. Those numbers were the numbers from the letter to the editor.
They are trillions, not billions and they don't include future debt.

It is indeed a little over $9 trillion now, but it was almost $6 trillion as 2000 ended. The tax cuts were phased-in over a few years, after Bush signed the first bill in 2001. The site I got the figures from only had them back as far as 1993, and as that year began the debt was a little over $4 trillion.

Doug

The point the Dem senators were making to the WSJ was that before the Bush tax cuts, congress had whittled it down to $2 trillion. After, the war and tax cuts it shot back up far faster than its previous trajectory.

I don't vouch for the numbers, but they are the numbers the senators noted in the letter to the editor of the WSJ.

"I supported the choice to dismember you." How you, now, after seeing Malachi identify themselves as pro[that]choice? If yes, how do you rationalize this to yourself?

Jacqueline, there was no "him" there as far as having any conception about any of this stuff. There was nobody to address as that "you" which was mentioned. There was a human fetus, there, certainly, but your questions imply quite a bit of personification. That you do it doesn't mean that everybody does.

If anything I'd say that it'd be better to have the abortion sooner, for the woman, and presumably for the people who feel "sorry" for "Malachi."

Doug

There are some 860 PP clinics in the US if I understand correctly.

One is being investigated.

No offense, but the contention that PP is so perfect that not even one of 860 could possibly be violation strains credulity.

the Senate's response is to pass a bill saying that the public can't exercise their First Amendment rights to warn women about the dangers of abortion.

Geez, having to stay 35 whole feet from the property is just totally going to prevent people from expressing themselves, huh? @@

If people want to yell at women who are soon to give birth, I don't imagine that keeping the yellers at some distance is such a bad thing. Same for abortion protesters.

Doug

Jacqueline, 10:38

I saw an interesting documentary last nite. A North Korean defector told of his experiences as a concentration camp guard in his native country.
He said the first instruction given him was to view the men, women, and children, often the families of "enemies of the state", who enter the camp as non-human. These are not human beings, period. Maintain that mentality at all times.
This would make brutality, starvation, torture, neglect, and killing much easier to inflict on these inmates.
Maybe that's what makes little Malachi's death easier to tolerate as well.

Re: PP-KS and the charges brought up against them...

Hang 'em high!

Falsifying records, not reporting statutory rapes, etc. - hang those wretches! For the damage they have caused and the lives they have ruined, they more than deserve it.

MK,

The human race is noted for its lack of empathy.

You will always be able to find someone to defend even the most egregious cruelty and brutality.

I wish it weren't so, but as you see here, that lack of empathy is alive and well.

A true poverty of spirit to feel so little regard for the helpless.

It is the worst pandemic.

Hey midnite. I think Jasper might be thinking of you volunteering at a PP? I read that in a post yesterday, correct? So that might be where he got it from.

Oh, BTW, what's with this whole "I'm not participating in No-shave November" business? I thought for sure you'd be in! :)

Doug 10:50am

Excuse me, but I clearly see a "him" lying there dismembered. How do you know he had no sense of what was being done to him? At one time premature babies were operated on without anesthetic because great thinkers thought they had no sensation. We have since learned different.
The mother should have aborted sooner? Why Doug, what difference does it make? Because the humanity wouldn't be so apparent?
Malachi's personhood is a matter of opinion? Does that apply to your personhood as well Doug?

Bobby:

No I do not volunteer at PP. Never have, and probably never will. Jasper knows that and is trying to be a smart _____

Oh that wasn't you? I wonder what I was thinking of...

You might be thinking of Amanda. She hasnt been on here in a while though. She used to volunteer at PP in NY.

The point the Dem senators were making to the WSJ was that before the Bush tax cuts, congress had whittled it down to $2 trillion. After, the war and tax cuts it shot back up far faster than its previous trajectory.

I don't vouch for the numbers, but they are the numbers the senators noted in the letter to the editor of the WSJ.

Hippie, I have to laugh - I'm not defending Bush Jr's actions, I just know those numbers aren't right.

If those Democratic senators really said that, they they are wrong. There was no "whittling down" going on - the debt has not declined in a long, long time, since 1959 (I think). Go Eisenhower.

Clinton had no surpluses. Calling some expenditures "off-budget" and then declaring "we have a surplus!" is silly. I'm not defending the Slickster, either - he was the one who promised $2 in spending cuts for every $1 in increased taxes. What we got was $12 in increased taxes for every $1 in spending cuts.

http://fms.treas.gov/fr/index.html This place puts out a yearly report in which the true cost of the government is given. My link to the 2006 report isn't working today, and neither will the .pdf files on that page open, but the information is there. The true cost of gov't has been running $300 billion or $400 billion more a year than the "official" gov't deficits.

Doug

I just can't believe that we do this to our children. A Nation That Kills It's Children Is A Nation Without Hope.

Well, I definitely thought I remembered reading it yesterday, so it probably wasn't Amanda, but I can't find it now. I must be nuts. This must be part of the transition to fatherhood; the losing your mind stage.

I just can't believe that we do this to our children. A Nation That Kills It's Children Is A Nation Without Hope.

Actually, killing your child is infanticide, it is illegal and it is punishable by a court of law and a jury of your peers. Abortion is the removal of a z/e/f, and it is still legal.

Midnite,

# a young person of either sex; "she writes books for children"; "they're just kids"; "`tiddler' is a British term for youngsters"
# a human offspring (son or daughter) of any age; "they had three children"; "they were able to send their kids to college"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# A child (plural: children), has two distinct meanings: the offspring, of any age, of two people, or an individual who has not yet reached puberty, though there might be a differing legal definition (see below).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

I clearly see a "him" lying there dismembered.

Mary, but not anybody that has any conception, etc. There was certainly a fetus, but it's a stretch with the "him" stuff.
......

How do you know he had no sense of what was being done to him?

Because his cerebral cortex, where such cognition takes place, was not nearly developed enough.
......

At one time premature babies were operated on without anesthetic because great thinkers thought they had no sensation. We have since learned different.

Agreed that we haven't always known everything, and that we still do not. However, it is at the very least certainly up for argument. If pain is a concern then there is anesthesia. Yet for empathy there needs to be emotion on the part of the subject, and that's even more farfetched than pain at 21 weeks would be.
......

The mother should have aborted sooner? Why Doug, what difference does it make?

It makes a big difference to many people. Put up a picture of a zygote, and the deal is going to be different.
......

Because the humanity wouldn't be so apparent?

"Humanity" is a good question. "Human" is a given, and that applies to the zygote and embryo too - it's not at issue. It was a human fetus, for sure. If we are merely saying that human DNA is present, that's one thing. "Humanity" as far as the state of being humane, etc., is quite another.
......

Malachi's personhood is a matter of opinion?

No, not real personhood with attributed rights. Anybody can say anything, but the real deal is granted at birth. A pretty decent argument can be made for limited attribution after viability, but 21 weeks isn't that.
......

Does that apply to your personhood as well Doug?

Nope, birth changes that.

Doug,

http://fms.treas.gov/fr/index.html This place puts out a yearly report in which the true cost of the government is given. My link to the 2006 report isn't working today, and neither will the .pdf files on that page open, but the information is there. The true cost of gov't has been running $300 billion or $400 billion more a year than the "official" gov't deficits.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at October 25, 2007 11:19 AM

Did you look at the Gokhale Smetters report commissioned by the US treasury and yanked at the last minute from the budget appendix specifically to conceal the state of the gov't money management.

I will post it again.

http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030723_SmettersFinalCC.pdf

Jacqueline, there was no "him" there as far as having any conception about any of this stuff.

He has a little face, Doug! A little FACE. Fingers. Toes. He was a little BOY. He is definitely a him. For you to look at him and say that he doesn't exist is delusional.

If you can look at a dismembered baby and say, "That's just fine." then you are beyond evil and there is little hope for you.

Put up a picture of a zygote, and the deal is going to be different.

Okay:

That's a human embryo. This is the earliest that babies can be surgically aborted.

I still see a little face.

Jacqueline:

That resembles a cat fets at the same time. Are you sure that isnt a little kitty??

Abortion is the removal of a z/e/f, and it is still legal.

And you can look at those "removed" z/e/f's I've posted and say, "You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, little dismembered one."

Actually, killing your child is infanticide, it is illegal and it is punishable by a court of law and a jury of your peers. Abortion is the removal of a z/e/f, and it is still legal.

So let's say Malachi wasn't aborted. Let's say that he was born premature. And then his parents, rather than seeking medical care for him, instead cut him into the pieces you see here. Should that be punishable by a court of law and a jury of their peers?

**fetus

So let's say Malachi wasn't aborted. Let's say that he was born premature. And then his parents, rather than seeking medical care for him, instead cut him into the pieces you see here. Should that be punishable by a court of law and a jury of their peers?

They would be charged with murder & possible child abuse. That is illegal, it is called murder.

That's just a stupid analogy Jacque

Denial, equivocation, justification, but not mercy, love, concern, empathy.

That resembles a cat fets at the same time. Are you sure that isnt a little kitty??
Posted by: midnite678 at October 25, 2007 12:40 PM

How rude.

That resembles a cat fets at the same time. Are you sure that isnt a little kitty??

Would it make you feel better to think so? Do you support chopping up little unborn kitties? I know I don't.

I just handraised an orphan kitten that's 4 months now. It involved getting up several times a night, mixing and heating a bottle, etc. Then there was litter training and weaning. People asked why I was doing that and the answer was because if animal control gets an animal too young to survive on it's own, they kill it. Albeit it's a lethal injection (far more humane than any way humans are aborted), but I didn't want this little one to die. She's precious. While I'm picture happy, here's one of us the day Janis was born:

So, the only way it would make a difference whether or not that's a human embryo or a kitten embryo is if you're for killing the unborn of all species. At least you'd be "equal opportunity."

That's just a stupid analogy Jacque

No it's not. The only difference in a crime versus a "choice" is the location of the baby. If Malachi were born and then dismembered, it'd be a crime. But since Malachi was dismembered while in his mother, it's "choice."

And you don't see the inconsistency?

Jacqueline, obviously, when I and the other ladies on this board miscarried, we were actually miscarrying what could have easily grown to be a kitty cat! I can't believe it...all that time, I was only pregnant with a cat fetus. I shouldn't have grieved at all- midnite678 says so!

Midnite,

I thought you mentioned yesterday that you interned at a clinic? didn't you?

Bethany:

That is not what I meant, and you (of all people) should know that. But in all seriousness, a cat fetus and a baby fetus resemble each other very much so in early pregnancies.

I am very sorry for any woman who has miscarried, I would never wish that on anyon;, nor would I tell someone how they should or should not grieve.

And I was not trying to be rude. I was being a smart ____, but not trying to be rude or a bitch. I simply pointed out something that not a lot of people know.
---------------------------------

Jacqueline :

Time, manor and location are three important factors when determining if a crime has been committed. If you have a problem with that, take it up with your State and Federal Government. It also depends on the reasonable person.

And FYI, if cats want to start having abortions, I will let them have the choice if they so want it.

Jasper:

No, I have never said I interned at a clinic. Where do you get this stuff. Maybe you should pay more attention to the words I type.

I have never interned at PP, and I probably never will intern at PP. I don't wish to subject myself to PL's yelling names at me or worse stuff. I don't have patience or the anger level to put up with that nonsense.

They would be charged with murder & possible child abuse. That is illegal, it is called murder.
That's just a stupid analogy Jacque

How in the WORLD is that a stupid analogy?? Please explain the difference.
The only difference is the location of the baby...why is one abuse and the other isn't? You are making no sense!

I had a point in talking about Janis.

The tiny, weak, sick, vulnerable should be cared for, not killed because it might inconvience the bigger, stronger, healthier that can fend for themselves. That's the mindset of prolifers. The mindset of prochoicers is that the bigger, stronger and healthier are God, and they can destroy the defenseless.

Hey, Pro-Lifers:

I was at the 40 Days vigil last week when I saw a praying lady pick up something from the street and place it gently on the grass. Before I left I approached her and said, "What did you save?" It was a caterpillar about to have gotten run over. As one that takes bugs outside rather than stepping on them and rescued turtles from the street, I got some joy out of seeing someone else like me. That afternoon I was filling the food bowl for this stray dog behind my office when my coworker caught me and said, "What's with you and animals? It's because they're defenseless, isn't it?" And that's when I realized that's the thread that ties us pro-lifers together: we step in the gap to help the underdog (no pun intended. :). We don't use the weakness and oppression of other beings as license to exploit them for our own gain.

I'm so grateful to count myself among your ranks. And from a self-interested standpoint, you are the type of people I'll be glad to know when I become weak or ill. I wish choicers realized that they're not impervious to their own medicine. They may not can be aborted anymore, but they can be neglected and euthanized. When that day comes, they'll be glad that there are people like us.

That is not what I meant, and you (of all people) should know that. But in all seriousness, a cat fetus and a baby fetus resemble each other very much so in early pregnancies.

And your point is? That an unborn child is no different than a cat fetus?

I am very sorry for any woman who has miscarried, I would never wish that on anyon;, nor would I tell someone how they should or should not grieve.

What's so sad about it, if it's just as important as a cat fetus?

"Jacqueline, there was no "him" there as far as having any conception about any of this stuff."

He has a little face, Doug! A little FACE. Fingers. Toes. He was a little BOY. He is definitely a him. For you to look at him and say that he doesn't exist is delusional.

Yes, J, a face, fingers, etc., but the delusion here is on your part. I didn't say those weren't present. What I said was that there was no "him" (as in a personality) there that had any conception of anything.

Agreed that an embryo can be said to have a face as well. But if there's no suffering then there's no suffering, and there is also the emotion of the woman to be considered. The emotion we know is at work is hers, as well as yours, here; it's what you want against what she wants, and if she's the one pregnant then I say we go with what she wants.

Doug

I can't believe it...all that time, I was only pregnant with a cat fetus.

Well, don't you feel like idiot?! /sarcasm

Well, don't you feel like idiot?! /sarcasm

Totally! lol

Time, manor and location are three important factors when determining if a crime has been committed.

I'm asking you if you see a difference between a late-term baby dismembered within his mother and one dismembered outside of his mother- the law aside. Is there a difference? Because one you support and the other you abhor- why is that?

http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/embryo/embryoflash.html

Among all vertebrates, embryos can look pretty similar at times.

Midnite,

from yesterday in the other thread, you said:

For all of you out there who think that the bare-bones government funding that Planned Parenthood recieves is funding abortions, or anyone who is just curious about what PP is all about, I hope this might eliminate some of the erroneous assumptions that pro-life propaganda has spread about PP. The following is the list of services the center I intern at provides, in alphabetical order:

..or maybe you cut and pasted it from another website?

OK, Bethany,

I am sorry. You should know that I did not mean it the way you took it. Apparently you're having a bad day or something (and I am in a good mood), so I shall leave (so I don't piss you off anymore); b/c apparently nothing I do today is right in your eyes or will make you happy.

Once again, I am sorry. I did not mean it they way you took my comment
------------------------------------------
And as I said above, location is a huge key in determining if a crime has been committed. When you're in a better mood, I'll come back and explain more, but as of now I am off.

Toddles!

I can't believe it...all that time, I was only pregnant with a cat fetus.

Bethany, are you saying that Halle Berry should not have been given that one role?

Doug

Doug,

How do you know there are no emotions, and since when do emotions define humanity? I have a moody little dog that gets sad when I leave and happy when I arrive. Is she a human?

Thinking that Malachi deserved to remain in one piece and live out his natural life is not delusional. Note that it takes you extreme efforts and depersonification to justify Malachi's killing.

Jasper, I cut and pasted from another website, didnt know it had that on there, no I do not intern at PP

well, thats good.

A conversation between Jesus and Mohammad as they read each other's holy books:

Mohammad: I don't understand the Christian pro-life position, In Exodus 21.22, it says that if a man causes a woman to miscarry, he should be FINED- not executed, which is the biblical punishment for murder.
Jesus: Yeah, but it's STILL taking a life.
Mohammad: Not if you use the BIBLICAL defintion of life, which is breath- like when God BREATHED life into Adam in Genesis 2.7. Embryos don't breathe, so life must begin at BIRTH, not conception. After all, Christians are "born again", not "conceived again"
Jesus: OK, I admit it. The anti-abortion thing has nothing to do with the bible. It's all about keeping women under control
Mohammad: Now THAT I can understand.

Midnite, it may not be what you intended, but maybe you need to choose your words more carefully and think about the ramifications of posting such absurd and hurtful things. If we're only as human as we "look" then people who slightly resemble baboons shouldn't be entitled to personhood either. It's just ridiculous that people like you make that kind of argument and expect it not to be hurtful or challenged by anyone.

And yes, I am in a pretty bad mood right now. I wasn't a little while ago though. :-(

Notice that all abortion debates end up with someone trying to defame Jesus? And notice it's never the pro-lifers that do it.

I reitterate:

I'm so grateful to count myself among your ranks, pro-lifers.

For all of you out there who think that the bare-bones government funding that Planned Parenthood recieves is funding abortions, or anyone who is just curious about what PP is all about, I hope this might eliminate some of the erroneous assumptions that pro-life propaganda has spread about PP. The following is the list of services the center I intern at provides, in alphabetical order:

Posted by: midnite678 at October 24, 2007 4:43 PM

This is why people think/thought you volunteered at a PP. I don't think anyone who thought this was off base. Maybe it's not a PP but they do abortions.

Notice how if all I'm doing is defaming, you should actually be able to make a valid counter-point rather than just crying about the fact that I made fun of Jesus?

Doug and midnite,

"Among all vertebrates, embryos can look pretty similar at times."

Yes true. However, we have science to tell them apart. For example, someone could be diagnosed with cancer and you could look at them and say "you look awfully healthy to me." Yet the fact remains that science tells us that they have cancer and are not totally healthy. Similarly, while many organisms may look the same during the early stages of life, we can scientifically tell them apart. The embryo/fetus of a women has human DNA, which a cat fetus does not. There are so many differences on the level not visible to the naked eye that to claim that they are the same is anti-scientific. I'm not claiming that you said this directly, but your comparing of the two does somewhat imply it.

Bethany, I'm sorry that your mood is down. I have also been subjected to some very heartless and cruel attacks. I won't mention any names. It was so nice to hear that my son was a "product" of a dysfunctional relationship. Also so nice to hear that I brought children into my "dysfunctional life." But, I won't mention any names.

Erin, I think you need to make a valid point to begin with. The evilness of abortion has nothing to do with the bible or Mohammad. It's evil because it's the taking of an innocent human life.

Notice how if all I'm doing is defaming, you should actually be able to make a valid counter-point rather than just crying about the fact that I made fun of Jesus?

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 1:39 PM

A counter-point to what? I think it was just stupid. Of course stupid is as stupid does.

According to the bible, which is the source of the majority of your morality, it seems obvious that a fetus is not a human life of equal value, because it's termination does not, in the bible, merit the same punishment as murder, and because life begins when breathing does- at birth. If you say, oh, lets stay away from the religious argument, I say, then morality is obviously relative and you guys have no place to go.

One more thing. I don't recall ever claiming to be a saint. I shared my story. I told the truth to show that I wasn't perfect. I never will be, but I did the best I could.

How do you know there are no emotions, and since when do emotions define humanity? I have a moody little dog that gets sad when I leave and happy when I arrive. Is she a human?

No, Jacqueline - being human is not necessary to have emotions. But if there are no emotions there, then I am saying it's vastly less of a "somebody" than if there are. I realize there is argument about 21 week fetuses - what can be said is that there is no proof of emotions then, while later on in gestation there is. I don't think the brain is sufficiently developed, operational or connected at that point - my opinion.
......

Thinking that Malachi deserved to remain in one piece and live out his natural life is not delusional. Note that it takes you extreme efforts and depersonification to justify Malachi's killing.

Nope, personhood is not attributed, and thus it's not illegal to have an abortion. There's no "depersonalization" going on; it's just not there yet. There is also no "justification." It's not up to me nor you unless we are the ones pregnant.

I don't blame you for thinking that the fetus should live. Yet there are miscarriages and abortions all the time, the world over, and, to viability, anyway, I see nothing more compelling than what the pregnant woman wants.

Doug

Bethany- I'm sorry we hurt your feelings. But at the same time, you guys don't have a very powerful penchant for putting things as gracefully as possible either. But, of course, it's different when YOU GUYS do it because, ZOMFSM, WE IS PROTEKTING TEH BEBIES...

*sigh* I guess that some people believe that my children would be better off dead.

Notice how if all I'm doing is defaming, you should actually be able to make a valid counter-point rather than just crying about the fact that I made fun of Jesus?

Whatever, Erin. You know exactly what you were doing. You pulled that bs out of nowhere. Nowhere were we discussing religion, Christianty, Islam, or any of the above. Choicers just like to pull that out are take cheap shots at us by taking cheaper shots at our Lord and Savior. That's precisely what you did. You know what you did. It's childish and infuriating.

I could type verse after verse where the Bible defends the sanctity of human life before birth. I could do that. I don't feel like it. So instead I pointed out the fact that choicers like to exhaust us by focusing our attention on defend the Name of our Lord rather than talking about abortion itself.

So coming back at me with "boohoo, I made fun of Jesus..." when the whole purpose was to distract and offend- I refuse to indulge you.

Similarly, while many organisms may look the same during the early stages of life, we can scientifically tell them apart. The embryo/fetus of a women has human DNA, which a cat fetus does not. There are so many differences on the level not visible to the naked eye that to claim that they are the same is anti-scientific. I'm not claiming that you said this directly, but your comparing of the two does somewhat imply it.

Bobby, no doubt. Yet people were not saying that they "are the same." If we're putting up pictures for emotional impact, then there are some stages of embryos where other species than human look more like "people."

I guess what I really want to know is if the cat fetus can see in the dark.

Doug

I don't think the brain is sufficiently developed, operational or connected at that point - my opinion.

Yes. Your opinion. What if you're wrong? Don't you think you shouldn't be gambling with lives that aren't yours based on your opinion?

Nope, personhood is not attributed, and thus it's not illegal to have an abortion.

Personhood is not something imbued. It's a state of being a human being. Whether you declare me a non-person or not, my human DNA says that I am a human and have basic human rights" the least of which is to remain INTACT.

Like Dred Scot was denied the arbitrary bullsh!t classification known as personhood, he was a human being and deserved rights. Because you deny Malachi and all other unborn humans the arbitrary bullsh!t classification known as personhood doesn't change the fact that killing them is wrong.

When are human beings NOT people? When Doug wants to kill them!

I know that it's from a political cartoon that I couldn't link to because membership is required.

I am talking about abortion. I am talking about the most basic facts of the pro-life standpoint. That it is almost entirely religion based, but even that religion based argument can't withstand the contradictions it makes to itself. Anti-choice position is all about keeping women in a powerless role, a helpless victim of their reproductive system, because the government is patriarchal and will never be able to incubate a fetus, and because there are too many women who are willing just to follow along and say, yes, men, you know exactly what it's like. You totally have the right to impregnate us and tell us we have to deal with it for 9 months.

A woman shouldn't have a child until she actually wants one. If you do, great, good for you. If you don't, I will never in my life tell you too bad, you get one anyway!

Doug 1:32am

Just so you know, the "him" was genetically determined at conception and has nothing to do with personal opinion, mine or anyone's.
I'm certainly glad we agree that we have not always known everything and do not now. So you cannot say with absolute certainty when a fetus will feel pain and you can't say for certain Malachi had no sense of what was being done to him. A premature baby will not have much in the way of emotion, most can barely cry. Will you have no empathy for that baby?
Concerning the mother aborting sooner, so you agree then that the less human they look the better.
Exactly what is the state of being human?
There's no question of your personhood because you're already born? Don't make me laugh Doug. Open a history book. Humanity, personhood, and rights have been denied time and again throughout history to people of various races,religions, and ethnicities and continue to be to this day. How else could slavery, brutality, and genocide be "justified"? Easy, just strip the victims of personhood. Just count yourself lucky Doug.

I guess that some people believe that my children would be better off dead.

Heather, I hope that it could never be that way. Nothing against you personally here, but we do sometimes see nasty descriptions of pro-choicers or women who choose to have abortions, and it can work both ways.

Doug

Erin,

This is not from the bible:

"We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal ... with certain inalienable rights, among them life,..."

That was written a while back, but they weren't idiots back then.
They knew, and we know that a human is created at conception not birth.

We created a nation to protect the rights of everyone, not just those with the power to secure their rights.

We are still working on it.

It is not conservative politics.

This is the most liberal idea in human history.

Erin,

You seem like a very nice person, and you are much more knowledgeable about myth and the history of early "cults" and religions than I am, but you really don't have a solid grasp on Christianity. You can't simply take one passage out of context and absolutise it. Here is a nice article explaining Exodus 21:22.

Now it seems that you are arguing that if God doesn't exist then there is no morality. If this is the case, then rape is a matter of choice, slavery is a matter of choice, you name it, no one can hold anyone to anything. It's pretty far out there, but in no way does it back us into a corner. In fact, it would back you into a corner by having to admit that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with rape. Are you willing to admit this?

Mary, it's nice to see you!

Bethany- I'm sorry we hurt your feelings. But at the same time, you guys don't have a very powerful penchant for putting things as gracefully as possible either. But, of course, it's different when YOU GUYS do it because, ZOMFSM, WE IS PROTEKTING TEH BEBIES...

Erin, you didn't hurt my feelings. I expect comments like that from you. With Midnite, I was disappointed, because for some reason, I didn't expect it.

Bethany, Heather (& who ever else:

I did not imply that anyone on this board was pregnant with a cat fetus nor did I imply that anyone miscarried a cat fetus. I merely pointed out a scientific fact.

I have never told someone that she should not grieve for a child that she miscarried (nor would I tell that to someone who aborted a z/e/f).

I would not tell a woman that she should not have brought a child into a dysfunctional family or that a child was conceived in dysfunction. Those are horrid things to say to a woman and I would never in my life stoop to that level.
-------------------------------
Now on the other hand; I've had many a PL's tell me that I should not be able to have children (b/c I am PC), and if I do ever get pregnant, that God will cause a miscarriage b/c of my sin of being PC.

Now how in the hell do you think that makes me feel?

I have the first stages of Cervical Cancer. I am having surgery (again, this will be my fourth) in December. It will make it very hard for me to pregnant and if I do I'll have an 85% chance of miscarrying.

If this surgery does not work (which I pray that it does), I'll either have to have a hysterectomy, or go through chemo and radiation. Either of those options will kill any chance of my having a biological child of my own.

Once again, how the hell am I supposed to feel when someone from yalls camp says these things to me?

I am only 23 years old, and the chance of me having children is getting yanked away from me, without my consent or concern. Who is going to want to marry a woman who can not have children?

Put yourselves in my shoes for a second...

Bobby- I'm not saying that without religion there is no morality. I am saying without religion, there is no ABSOLUTE morality. There are going to be things that are ALMOST always bad and ALMOST always good. But absolutes are silly. In my mind, is rape always bad? Yes. In a culture where rape is an intrinsic way of life and where men have grown up learning and being indoctrinated with the fact that it is OK to rape women, and women are taught that they are sexual objects...I don't know. Honestly, if that's the way they function, if that's their preferred method of survival, then fine. Do I agree with it, no. Do I think it's wrong, and that they are bad people for doing it? No.

I was reading on another site about a young girl who had a PBA. She told her heart sick mother "I could hear him whimpering.".....I was just sick!

midnite and Erin, My comment wasn't directed at you 2. I think you both know who I'm talkin about.[but I won't mention any names]

I'm waiting for someone to say that I made that up, but I really did read it.

midnite- that's terrible! I had my own cervical cancer scare just about a month ago. I hope that everything goes all right, I got lucky when a cone biopsy got all of the mess.

Mary, agreed that male or female is there at conception, but that is not the only consideration when we are talking about "somebody." There's a lot more to it than that. Past viability there is an increasingly good argument for pain perception, but at 21 weeks it's much weaker. Sure, the negative - "pain is not there" - cannot be proven, but it's illogical to lean on that as a reason to take away the freedom that women have in this matter.

It's certainly possible that a viable, born baby would not yet be able to feel pain. In general, almost all are capable of it, and I do indeed have empathy for them - I think emotion is there, the capability to suffer, etc.

Concerning the mother aborting sooner, so you agree then that the less human they look the better.

If it is pictures of a 21 week fetus that gets people worked up, then yes, although you are misstating it. It's not "less human." It's less like a person.
......

Exactly what is the state of being human?

Having human DNA. Being of human origin. Of or pertaining to humans. Nothing more than that required.
......

There's no question of your personhood because you're already born?

Nope. That's the way things are. It does not "have" to be that way, i.e. it could be different, but as things are now that's the deal.
......

Don't make me laugh Doug. Open a history book. Humanity, personhood, and rights have been denied time and again throughout history to people of various races,religions, and ethnicities and continue to be to this day.

"Denied" is not really the right word. Either rights are granted or not. Same with personhood. If personhood had not been attributed to me at birth, I would not claim that it had. No, birth is not the end-all of personhood, but the Birth Standard is incredibly prevalent the world over, past and present; it's human nature to do it that way.

Doug

Midnite,

I really got choked up at your story.

Please know that we are all pulling for you.

Hopefully your treatment will be successful and you will have a fresh outlook.

I hope someday you can look back on these hard times and feel that you are stronger.

Keep your chin up!

And off I go!

Anti-choice position is all about keeping women in a powerless role

Erin, I have power. I have power out the ass and I don't have to oppress with inch-long child in order to have it. In fact, I have more power than women that do under anesthesia and lie their helpless and unable to move while the babies are ripped from their wombs. Abortion is not empowering- it's the chosen wounding and exploitation of women.

a helpless victim of their reproductive system

Such self-loathing. I LOVE my reproductive system. Midnite loves hers, too, else she wouldn't be lamenting the thought of it not working properly.

Helpless? How do you think women get pregnant? It's not by swallowing a watermelon seed. It's not a bee sting. You are not helpless nor a victim. Own your choices!

You totally have the right to impregnate us

No one has the RIGHT to impregnate me. I give men the opportunity if I choose to have sex with them. Once again, own your choices.

midnite, I wish you good health. Erin, you too. I don't wish illness or death on anyone! I pray for the opposite. Erin, do you think you will ever want children some day?

heather, I'm sure you did, and perhaps she did hear that, but it's quite likely it was psychosomatic.

heather- right now? No. Maybe when I get a lot older and settle down(if I ever settle down), I'll change my mind. Right now, no.

Jacque- any time any part of your body messes up on you, it's terrifying. It could be your liver, your heart, or your cervix. It doesn't matter. It's still your body and it's betraying you.

Also, yeah, it's tough if you can't have biological kids. That's what adoption is for. Yay adoption!

I have power out the ass

Ha! Jacqueline, regardless of any and all arguments, that was well-said!

Doug

Thank you Heather. And I am not sure who said those things to you, but he/she should feel ashamed of themselves.

OK, I've got to go to the airport to catch my flight to New Orleans. I hope everyone has a better day, and a great weekend.

I shall return on Sunday...

Consent to sex doesn't equal consent to pregnancy. How about a woman who has a condition that prevents her from being able to ever deliver or incubate a fetus, like some higher types of endometriosis? Should she never have sex?

midnite,

"I've had many a PL's tell me that I should not be able to have children (b/c I am PC), and if I do ever get pregnant, that God will cause a miscarriage b/c of my sin of being PC."

Those people are sick bastards. Authentic Christianity condemns such stupidity. I'm sorry they told you that.

Erin,

Thank you for explaining your thinking. I hope I wasn't too nasty above :)

that God will cause a miscarriage b/c of my sin of being PC.

This is a lie. God doesn't work that way. I rebuke this lie in Jesus' name!

I am only 23 years old, and the chance of me having children is getting yanked away from me, without my consent or concern.

I'm sorry, Midnite. Infertility is painful. I worked in adoption enough to see that pain. I pray that you'll never go through it.

I would never wish a miscarriage or infertility on anyone. That's evil. I do however see a sense of injustice when a woman who works so hard to save babies can't have any, while a woman that has killed several of hers in the womb can have kids without trouble.

What I don't understand is, how can you recognize the sorrow of not being able to have children while at the same time supporting the right of people to kill the kids they are lucky enough to be able to conceive?

Erin,

You wrote,

"In a culture where rape is an intrinsic way of life and where men have grown up learning and being indoctrinated with the fact that it is OK to rape women, and women are taught that they are sexual objects...I don't know. Honestly, if that's the way they function, if that's their preferred method of survival, then fine. Do I agree with it, no. Do I think it's wrong, and that they are bad people for doing it? No.

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:11 PM

There are plenty of young men here in the US who have such poor role models that they practically see all girls as objects. There are girls who see themselves that way. Would you think it reasonable to present them with an alternative view, or should we just let them do what they want and not try to lift their ideals?

"I don't think the brain is sufficiently developed, operational or connected at that point - my opinion."

Yes. Your opinion. What if you're wrong? Don't you think you shouldn't be gambling with lives that aren't yours based on your opinion?

Jacqueline, not to the extent that we take away the freedom that women have in the matter.
......

"Nope, personhood is not attributed, and thus it's not illegal to have an abortion."

Personhood is not something imbued. It's a state of being a human being. Whether you declare me a non-person or not, my human DNA says that I am a human and have basic human rights" the least of which is to remain INTACT.

Wrong. There is physical reality - "human" and "living" and "organism" etc., and then there is status, then there are societal constructs like personhood. Different deals. What I say does not affect your physical reality, no, but it was society that attributed personhood to you.

Doug

Jacque- a guy can get away with having no-holds-barred sex. No possibility of consequence, except perhaps an STD. Not a fetus that uses his penis as an incubator for 9 months. I choose to put myself on an equal playing ground. That's power to me.

any time any part of your body messes up on you, it's terrifying. It could be your liver, your heart, or your cervix. It doesn't matter. It's still your body and it's betraying you.

But there's a special pain associated with infertility, Erin. Ask your mom.

Ha! Jacqueline, regardless of any and all arguments, that was well-said!

Class-y, eh? Thank you!

Jacque, amen.

"Notice that all abortion debates end up with someone trying to defame Jesus? And notice it's never the pro-lifers that do it.

I reitterate:

I'm so grateful to count myself among your ranks, pro-lifers."

Me too, especially when I look at that picture of Malachi - I am so happy to have seen the light!

Consent to sex doesn't equal consent to pregnancy.

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:25 PM

Overeating doesn't equal consent to obesity.

hippie- that's not the kind of culture I was referring to and you know it. That's a radical case, and in our kind of culture, someone cannot help but be exposed to the thousands of antithesis viewpoints. Have any of you guys read Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart? You should.

Guys cannot get away with sex without consequences. My male friend is dying of AIDS. Proof.

Midnite,

I'm so sorry to hear of your situation. I really wish there was something I could say or do. I can only say how sorry I am for you.
For anyone to say anything of such appalling ignorance to you is indefensible. These are the same ignoramuses who think they read God's diary and know exactly who is going to hell or heaven, who God loves, who He loves more, etc. I was enraged to hear a man who calls himself Christian tell a group of people they were an embarassment to God, they were a rather motly looking bunch, and not welcome to attend a religious gathering. Just what gave him the right to say that?? Now they know who God let's have children or why and can even foresee miscarriage? I respect people's beliefs or lack thereof, but this type of thing is intolerable to me.
Excuse Midnite, but I'm a little infuriated. PLease continue to take the very good care of yourself you have been and keep us posted on how your are doing. We are all your friends here and we love and care about you.

Heather,

Thank you, it is good to see you as well.

That's power to me.

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:28 PM

Yes, legal abortion is all about the powerful exercising power over the powerless.

Yet for empathy there needs to be emotion on the part of the subject, and that's even more farfetched than pain at 21 weeks would be.

Posted by: Doug at October 25, 2007 11:32 AM

How is pain at 21 weeks farfetched? It's pretty well known that a premature baby has an underdeveloped nervous system and is in a lot of pain.

My friend had a premie and they weren't allowed to hold or touch her for quite awhile because of the pain. The doctors and nurses told them the best they could do was to talk and sing to her so she would thrive. Today she's a very happy healthy 5 year old.

Jacque- yeah, sure there is. I know how hard it was for my mom. I also know how much now that she doesn't care. She has two children that ARE her own children.

Also, my mother is a baby-serial-killer. She had about two years of IVF. Oh noes!

Jacqueline

I don't know if you've ever seen my post on this, but here I go again (& then I must leave for the airport):

I would not have an abortion if I were to get pregnant tomorrow. The only way I would ever have an abortion is if I was raped, or my life was in danger (i.e. I would die as a result).

Personally, I am PL, but politically I am PC. I don't think that my morals, my opinions or my reasons fit everyone; I don't think I (or anyone) has the right to tell another human being what he/she can or cannot do with their own body. It is not place to tell an adult what is best for them. B/c what may be best for me in a given situation could be detrimental to another person in the same situation.

I cant remember who said this, but I think it fits perfectly: "If you cant trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with a child?".

Does that make any sense to you at all??

heather- that's nauseating. You don't deserve to be considered someone's friend if you think that a terrible disease is being inflicted on them because they deserve it.

Also, I'm so glad that you think that AIDS is god's punishment for gay people. Way to go.

"Have any of you guys read Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart?"

Believe it or not, I actually have in college, although I can't remember a single thing from it...

Yay adoption!

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:23 PM

Our point exactly, Erin.

Are you one to talk.

OOOOHHH Erin, big misunderstanding here. Who do you think went over and nursed the man while he lay on the couch vomiting? ME! I didn't say he deserved it, but he suffered consequences from gay sex.

Erin,

I don't mean this rudely, but I don't quite understand what you wrote. I thought you were giving a hypothetical example. I was giving a similar but no so radical example plus suggesting that society supplant the situation with education. My question is should we try to convince others or just ignore differences and not influence others?

"Jacque- a guy can get away with having no-holds-barred sex. No possibility of consequence, except perhaps an STD."

Really? Do you think there are really no consequences? I think there are consequences - they are just not as visible. And, maybe just think about it this way. Women get a *positive* consequence of sex... they get to bear and shape the next generation. That is a great power. I sometimes feel sorry for men that they miss out on such beauty and creative power. Anyway, isn't abortion itself a consequence? I mean, it's not a walk in the park, I don't think. What about the women who are scarred physically and mentally by it? No matter how you look at it - God or Nature or whatever has created it such that women (or females of any species, really) ALWAYS bear the greater consequences of sex no matter what they do.

"Not a fetus that uses his penis as an incubator for 9 months."

That would be so awesome! I would LOVE to see that!

"I choose to put myself on an equal playing ground. That's power to me."

So do I - that's why I educated myself and work to make good money. However, to be equal, I should not have to negate a key part of my creativity and strength as a woman (i.e., the ability to bear children). Having abortion on demand makes it so much easier for society to demand that women become "like men" to become equal. Rather than having to change to accomodate both our equality and our female-ness.

What's right for one person isn't right for everyone, carder.

Bobby- you should read it again without the pressure of doing it for a class. It's full of things that we can find reprehensible morally, but when you see how incredible their culture is and how violently downhill everything goes when people start trying to interfere, there's no way you can just say that they're wrong.

Jacqueline, not to the extent that we take away the freedom that women have in the matter.

So the right to ill-gotten freedom supersedes the right to life?

Erin,

Jacque- a guy can get away with having no-holds-barred sex.

Only because you let him! And women like you let men do this to you. Guess what, Erin: No guy gets away with having no-holds-barred sex with me! Anyone that gets to have sex with me must first vow his fidelty to me and support for life. Then we slip on wedding rings and sign a legal document declaring our union. There is a price to get between my thighs. Now that's POWER. In that regard, I'm the friggin' Princess of Power (She-Ra!).

No possibility of consequence

Erin, my sex partners consequences are having to care for and provide for his own child. You let him out of this consequence when you run to the abortion clinic. Once again, men are only able to have no-holds-barred, consequence-free sex because you let them. You let men treat you like an inflatable doll. If you want real power, demand to be treated like a woman with a functioning body and the ability to bear a child.

Not a fetus that uses his penis as an incubator for 9 months.

No degrading to women to say that carrying and nurturing one's own child turns them into an Easy Bake Oven. Men are at a disadvantage for not being able to experience that level of closeness with another human being. This is an asset women have that is unique to us. Why hate it? I embrace it!

I choose to put myself on an equal playing ground. That's power to me.

No, Erin, you choose to lower yourself to those men you lament that can have consequence-free, no-holds-barred sex without carrying a child. Sex was never intended to be consequence-free. Self-respecting people accept and embrace the wonderful consequences of having a child. Letting men have sex consequence free (basically, giving them irresponsibility) and then killing your own kids so you can have it consequence-free (being irresponsible yourself) just makes you both equally LOW. You're both powerless.

Erin, I was pointing out that men suffer too.

Okay, I will definitely add it to the list of books to read (which is quite packed).

heather- just the way you phrase it says it all, hun. He suffered the consequences of GAY sex. Not just sex, but GAY sex. You know, the biggest population of HIV-positives is African heterosexual WOMEN.

hippie- I'm suggesting that as long as a certain way of life isn't interfering with our own, we let it prosper and develop on its own.

"heather- just the way you phrase it says it all, hun. He suffered the consequences of GAY sex. Not just sex, but GAY sex."

She didn't say "gay sex" she said "sex": "Guys cannot get away with sex without consequences. My male friend is dying of AIDS. Proof."

Okay, correction then. He is suffering from casual sex. He even admits it.

Erin,

Remember western culture from way back and how over time people have agitated for improvement, and how things have improved?

I think of myself as progressive. Our culture needs to improve and so do others. Sometimes good intentions don't have good outcomes, but we need to seek improvement nonetheless.

Ohohoho, better take it easy, Jacque. You're about a step away from calling me a whore. And that don't fly with me.

For different people, power means different things. I don't want to get married at all right now. I sure as blazes don't want a kid. I'm not an 'inflatable doll' for enjoying sex. Sex is natural, just like polyamoury relationships are. we can choose to go against it as much or as little as we want. You don't have any right to tell me that my body doesn't equal my choice. I choose to have sex. I can choose whether to incubate a fetus.

Thank you for that quote midnite, I always forget about it!

Midnite,

I wouldn't personally abuse a child, but far be it for me to oppose that morality on others! See the ridiculousness of that statement? There is a reason why I woulnd't abuse a child: Because it's wrong and children have a right to protection. That same reason mandates my beleif that all children should be free from abuse.

I cant remember who said this, but I think it fits perfectly: "If you cant trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with a child?".

Does that make any sense to you at all??

The choice you're talking about is the choice to kill a child. No one should be trusted with that choice. This bumper sticker essentially says, "If you can't trust me to kill me child, how can you trust me to raise her?"

Think about it.

"but he suffered consequences from gay sex."

When I said proof, I meant casual sex. Not that gays deserve that, but he is gay. That is a fact.

Brought from the "Annie Leibovitz" thread from Oct. 22:

Mary: So be it. Though I'm sure PC feminists and gays would have an issue with this.

If they feel like the implication is that they are bad or their group is bad, then yeah, it could very well be. Yet if they really are pro-choice then it's hard for me to think they'd be against a woman choosing to have an abortion, regardless of her reasons.
......

I remember years ago PC columnist Ellen Goodman was writing on sex selection abortion. While she acknowledged sex selection abortions in Asia were disposing mostly females, she insisted they were "very rare" here in the United States. Since she obviously needed some updating, I sent her a copy of Dr. Mendelsohn's article. She wrote back that while yes they may occur here, sex selection abortions are the "rarest of the rare" in the US. I wrote back and asked how she knew this for certain, since no woman has to give her reason for an abortion, much less sign any sworn statements. Did she have any studies or statistics to back her claim as to the "rarity" of sex selection abortion? Apparently it was little more than wishful thinking on her part since I never got an answer. I don't recall that she named a source in her original article either. It certainly is easy to understand how a dedicated PC feminist such as Ms. Goodman can find this situation a tad awkward.

Could be there as well. Do we know how many sex selection abortions are done in the US? I confess I don't - and would think it's indeed a miniscule number, but maybe I'm wrong.

Doug

hippie- forcing change on a culture is counterproductive. Imperialism PROVED that. If you force changes on a culture, they start to resent it, that resent forces them to hang on to things that under a lack of pressure, they would have eventually let go of themselves. History will always push civilizations towards change, but only if they are left to individually find that change at the right pace for themselves.

Ohohoho, better take it easy, Jacque. You're about a step away from calling me a whore. And that don't fly with me.

I don't use those words, although they don't bother me. It's because I know they don't apply to me. I'm telling you- it's nice.

Sex is natural

And sharp instruments up your vagina and in your cervix is natural, too?
You don't have any right to tell me that my body doesn't equal my choice.

I never said that. I said your baby's body isn't yours to dismember.

Doug,

Humanity and personhood have been denied to people time and again, by those more powerful and in a position to do so, as well as in a position to strip others of their rights. Not all agree that personhood is something endowed upon us at birth, well not all of us anyway. You'll notice Doug its always been WE who are persons and THEM that are not.
So its irrelevent if there is pain and sensation, you'll just completely ignore it for the sake of "rights". What happens if and when science proves the fetus can indeed feel pain and emotion, and much earlier than thought? Remember what I told you about the great thinkers and premature babies?
I can remember when pregnant women reported their unborn babies sudden startled movement when an alarm clock went off. Of course these women were laughed at by their male doctors. What would women know of these things? Its been shown that these women were right, that the fetus could sensate more than was thought at the time.
Oh excuse me, it looks less like a person when you abort earlier. That makes all the difference.
Having human DNA, being of human origin, or pertaining to human. Sounds like you and the unborn have a lot in common.

Erin,

you wrote:

" I'm suggesting that as long as a certain way of life isn't interfering with our own, we let it prosper and develop on its own."

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:45 PM

Abortion is illegal in some countries yet foreigners go into those countries and try to get it legalized. Their way of life isn't interfering with those foreigners. Would you be against foreigners trying to change laws here? or there?

If it's in mine, it is. And it's a fetus.

You're good with those subtle insults, by the way, Jacque.

Kristen: How is pain at 21 weeks farfetched? It's pretty well known that a premature baby has an underdeveloped nervous system and is in a lot of pain.

Kristen, because the thalamus and the cerebral cortex are not connected much yet, then. Conscious sense perception takes place within the cortex. There is some argument about this - as with some people with severely damaged cortexes who apparently "feel pain." In the vast majority of brains, however, cognition occurs in the cortex.
......

My friend had a premie and they weren't allowed to hold or touch her for quite awhile because of the pain. The doctors and nurses told them the best they could do was to talk and sing to her so she would thrive. Today she's a very happy healthy 5 year old.

Being premature and being 21 weeks may have a lot of difference between them. I've done the pain argument for fetuses so much....

Doug

Erin,

you wrote,

hippie- forcing change on a culture is counterproductive. Imperialism PROVED that. If you force changes on a culture, they start to resent it, that resent forces them to hang on to things that under a lack of pressure, they would have eventually let go of themselves. History will always push civilizations towards change, but only if they are left to individually find that change at the right pace for themselves.

Posted by: Erin at October 25, 2007 2:52 PM

Imperialism was simply exploitation. Of course it was destructive. Countries went in stole everything of value and used people as slaves. Those who tried to establish colonies brought their own people to be the new establishment.

You're completely missing my point hippie. Grrr...this is so frustrating. It can't really apply in the western world. We're too globalized of a civilization. In a lot of ways, you know, it doesn't matter anymore, because the damage is done. A lot of countries, especially in Latin America and Africa, are going to be messed up for a very long time because of imperialist practices. I'm saying that interference on the most basic level- like messing about with tribes that have never seen a white man before, and the like, has permanent negative consequences on developing civilizations.

Maybe it's just a history buff thing. I'm serious though- Chinua Achebe. Things Fall Apart. One of the TIME top 100 novels. Amazing.

OK, I have to go to work. Later.

Mary, rights may be attributed and other people may still harm a given person, certainly. Personhood is still an idea, still a status which is conferred, or not, and that's why we have the abortion debate in the first place.

I never said that pain or sensation determined personhood.
......

Oh excuse me, it looks less like a person when you abort earlier. That makes all the difference.

Your words there, not mine. That it makes somedifference to many people is plain to see. The more developed the unborn are, the more people personify them.
......

Having human DNA, being of human origin, or pertaining to human. Sounds like you and the unborn have a lot in common.

Of course - nobody told you different.

Doug

Being premature and being 21 weeks may have a lot of difference between them. I've done the pain argument for fetuses so much....

Doug

Posted by: Doug at October 25, 2007 2:59 PM

Another friend had a little boy at 22 weeks, same thing, no touching/holding. He has had difficulties but is almost 6 and is making great strides. The doctors were very frank with her and said he wouldn't be "normal" and probably wouldn't survive but she and her husband insisted they do everything to save him.

My friend with the little girl had her at 28 weeks.

Mary, are you still here?

You're completely missing my point hippie. Grrr...this is so frustrating.

Above posted by Erin.

I think he completely got your point. It's not okay for us to tell other cultures to stop raping but it's okay for us to tell them it's okay to abort. Very clear.