I hope they are able to help women get affordable health care and provide good unbiased information for every choice.

"Thank you to every person that stood up for us at City Council..." All 5 of them.

Phooey!

Jess,

Can you show that women in Aurora never had access to affordable health care? However did they manage to get health care before the arrival of PP?

I pray to God none of you show up at the clinic tomorrow to make young women feel bad for getting a PAP smear, taking birth control, getting tested for STIs or screened for cancer, and especially not for choosing to have an abortion.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to voice your opinion. You do. And I encourage you to write to your senators and congressmen to change the laws regarding birth control. Or call your aldermen about building permit laws. Speak to spokespersons from PP or other organizations.

But please, please, don't harrass people for going to the clinic. It's their choice to go there. Be respectful human beings. You're not helping the situation by using itimidation or humilation tatics.

Remember that you have the right to voice your opinion and choose to do what you want with YOUR body.

Remember that other people have the right to voice their opinion and do what they want with THEIR bodies.

That's all.

Jess,

Can you show that women in Aurora never had access to affordable health care? However did they manage to get health care before the arrival of PP?

Posted by: Mary at October 1, 2007 7:23 PM
.........................................

Why don't you do some homework and provide the proof to your assumption that women in Aurora had access to low cost to PAPs, BC........everything else that PP offers before PP?
While all of us 'radical feminists' were fighting to get insurance companies to actually cover PAPS and all that icky women stuff, you were making mud pies and working on taking those that have made your life better and safer for granted. You think that like god did it. @@ Religion has always been all about female health concerns? Of course not. Quit lying.

Edyt - I find it funny that you started that post with "I pray to God..."

Told you so!

PP,

You will have answer for your atrocities some day, believe me, that day is coming. We are only on earth here for a short time. Their crys will not go unheard.

What, I can't have faith? I'm ineligible because of what I believe about abortion and the right to not be harrassed?

I'd like to let God be the judge of that, not you, Kristen.

Thanks.

Another prediction: The libel case against PP will be dismissed.

For all you pro-lifers out there who are disheartened, I'd like to point out that PP's abortion factory was scheduled to open on Sept. 18th. Because of your efforts, it was delayed two weeks. Because of your efforts, it can be surmised that some babies were saved during that timeframe, that some women who were uneducated about PP's agenda of death became informed and make a choice that saved the lives of their babies. PP is a multi-million dollar death factory and by the grass roots efforts of thousands who had nothing to gain by standing up for life you put a stick in the cog of their money-making wheel for two whole weeks. I salute you all.

Sally - as I've said in previous posts. My insurance stinks and I go to the DuPage County health clinic to get my PAPs. It's been there since my college days (longer ago than I care to admit.) Kane County has a health center (although I haven't been there.) I went to a Catholic College so the health center wasn't too keen on giving BC but I know every college has a health center and there are several colleges in the area. (Yes, only current students have that option.) Is that enough proof, I can go on if you need but it'd be pretty boring. They all provide health services, though not abortion services but I think you were just asking about low cost BC, PAPs and screenings. When I've gone I've never waited longer than 45 minutes which I think is better than most doctors’ offices. Would you like the number? They are really nice there.

If you were fighting to get my PAPs covered you did a pretty poor job. I'd go so far as to say a piss-poor job, seeing as how they ARE NOT covered.

What, I can't have faith? I'm ineligible because of what I believe about abortion and the right to not be harrassed?

I'd like to let God be the judge of that, not you, Kristen.

Thanks.

Posted by: Edyt at October 1, 2007 8:09 PM

I'm just saying I think it's funny. What I can't have an opinion? That's right, silly me, only you can.

Why is it funny, then?

It's like an oxymoron. That's just my opinion though.

Sally,

When I was making mudpies you weren't even born yet so put a sock in it. It is up to the posters on this blog who claim that the women of Aurora will finally have affordable and accessible health care to back up their claim by showing how the women of Aurora never had any such access to begin with. I never made any claims of any kind.
Where do you get the bit about religion and how do you know what I think about what God did or didn't do? Since I never discuss religion on this blog, you must be some kind of clairvoyant.

It's funny because you pray to God that people won't "make young women feel bad," which is pretty unimportant compared to praying to God that people "won't kill their babies in this PP, babies that are a gift from you, God." If you profess to believe in such a thing as God.

You sound pretty wimpy, Edyt. The violence of an abortion you can stand - but people praying and counseling in front of the clinic, well who could stand that??????

And for the record, pro-lifers aren't against paps and women's health care - we're specifically against abortions. PP fronts their abortion business and trolls for clients with other services. Plus, PP is not exactly low-cost - it's just taxpayer subsidized.

How is that an oxymoron? Are you talking about me being pro-choice and spiritual, or are you talking about me being a woman with an opinion she voices, considering that's also a no-no in the Bible?

Pick and choose what you believe. In twenty years the next generation's beliefs will be different anyway. And they'll modify what the Bible means to suit their interests. People have been doing it for thousands of years.

You and I are no different, except for the parts we choose to believe.

Lynn, you wrote: "[PP opening] was delayed two weeks. Because of your efforts, it can be surmised that some babies were saved during that timeframe...."

How silly. As if any woman is going to decide to grow her pregnancy because she has to drive a little ways to get her abortion. The idea is ridiculous.

Number of abortions prevented: ZERO.

AMEN Lynn!

Lynn,

For all you pro-lifers out there who are disheartened, I'd like to point out that PP's abortion factory was scheduled to open on Sept. 18th. Because of your efforts, it was delayed two weeks. Because of your efforts, it can be surmised that some babies were saved during that timeframe, that some women who were uneducated about PP's agenda of death became informed and make a choice that saved the lives of their babies. PP is a multi-million dollar death factory and by the grass roots efforts of thousands who had nothing to gain by standing up for life you put a stick in the cog of their money-making wheel for two whole weeks. I salute you all.

In my grief, I'd almost lost sight of that. Thank you.

Perhaps someday the little ones whose lives were saved will make themselves known. To the ones that are about to die, all I can say is, I am so, so sorry. We tried. God knows that we tried.

Edyt,

You and I are no different, except for the parts we choose to believe.

There is not enough paper in the world to list all the differences between you and us.

SoMG it's very clear that when women have waiting periods or time to think less of them go through with the abortion. That's why you pro-choicers and PP are so against 24 hour or other mandatory waiting periods.

Or can I count on you to support the next 24 hour waiting period law that is proposed since it doesn't impact the number of abortions according to you?

SoMG,

Do you go to funerals and tell people to buck up! You could've told 'em ol' mike was gonna kick the bucket?

When you look the word despicable up in the dictionary, it says SoMG.

Good psychopaths know how to mimic empathy. Apparently, you're not even very good at being a sociopath.

You and I are no different, except for the parts we choose to believe.

Posted by: Edyt at October 1, 2007 8:30 PM

Now there I have to differ. I hear a lot of people say "Morals change, they evolve." No. they erode when society becomes more selfish.

I agree that in 20 years things will be different. My hope is that the younger generation will see the error of OUR ways and work to correct it if we haven't succeeded, instead of moving further in the other direction. Wrong is always wrong just as right is always right. Public opinion has very little to do with that.

It's funny because you pray to God that people won't "make young women feel bad," which is pretty unimportant compared to praying to God that people "won't kill their babies in this PP, babies that are a gift from you, God." If you profess to believe in such a thing as God.

Pretty unimportant? Sure, we can debate abortion, but what makes me angry is that you're saying it is acceptable to abuse, belittle, harrass, and impose guilt, fear, and misery on women who HAVE LEGAL RIGHTS TO CHOOSE TO GO TO THIS CLINIC.

I know full well pro-lifers harrass people who go to PP regardless of the reason that person is there. And for a woman going to get a PAP smear, she doesn't deserve that treatment, nor does anyone else. No one deserves to be mistreated the way pro-lifers tend to mistreat them.

You sound pretty wimpy, Edyt. The violence of an abortion you can stand - but people praying and counseling in front of the clinic, well who could stand that??????

It's not just prayers, Lynn. People are emotionally abused. And it's not wimpy for me to hope and pray that those people are not scarred by your efforts to "save lives." If we as a community were more supportive, perhaps people wouldn't turn to abortions. But you, and other pro-lifers out there who harrass them, make them feel even more alone.

What we need to do is educate this country about all the options. Not one or two of them. ALL of them. Let people make their own decisions.

It is interesting that a federal judge, 50 miles away from Aurora, can see evidence of civil fraud but our mayor is blind to it when it is right under his nose.

Whenever something looks fishy, look for the money trail and follow it.

The Abortion Industry is a trillion dollar industry.

Mike

Edyt,

Speaking of abortion...

No one deserves to be mistreated the way pro-lifers tend to mistreat them.

No one deserves to be mistreated the way pro- abortionists tend to mistreat them...(the unborn that is)

Pick and choose what you believe.
Posted by: Edyt at October 1, 2007 8:30 PM

That's the other thing that's different. I DON'T pick and choose what I believe. I don't say "That's not convenient for me right now, but maybe in 5 years I'll give it a whirl." It is what it is.

Do you think that it's easy to accept everything my faith teaches me? I believe that God is my Father. And just like my biological father he does things that sometimes I don't like because He knows what is best for me. That is faith. Not a cafeteria where I can pick my religion to suit my wants and desires.

Shoot! That was from me. Forgot to sign.

MK - thoughts like that are the ones that promote hatred and violence.

Maybe I could be considered a radical because I actually accept people and their beliefs.

Like I said before, I wouldn't choose to have an abortion, but I respect the opinions of others to have one. And I would accept a young teen mom who chose to keep her baby too.

I would be just as supportive to both people. And maybe that's the big dividing line between us.

Kristen, like I mentioned earlier (I must have been too vague), if you listen to your faith through the Bible and what it tells us from God, then you must also believe that women are to be subservient to men. You must relinquish your right to have this debate with me right now.

Culturally, that's how life was, and that's how life was presented in the Bible as the "right" way to live. You should not have the right to choose who you want to marry, but your family should decide the right man and he will get a part of your family's fortune. You, after all, are just another piece of property.

Do you believe that?

If not, then what makes it wrong? The Bible says it's okay.

Edyt,

I would be just as supportive to both people. And maybe that's the big dividing line between us.

No kidding.

Edyt said...

Like I said before, I wouldn't choose to have an abortion, but I respect the opinions of others to have one.

------

Replace "Slavery" for "Abortion"...

Like I said before, I wouldn't choose to have a SLAVE (SLAVERY), but I respect the opinions of others to have SLAVES.

Typical Pro-Abort nonsense!

Mike

Edyt,

Thoughts like what? The fact that I believe you and pro lifers are so different in how they view the world and morality that it would take reams to write it all down?

Why would this incite hatred?

Do you disagree? You think we're alike?

The fact that when it comes to morals we have nothing in commons does not make me "hate" you.

The fact that it causes feelings of hatred and violence in you, would be just one more reason I would need lots of paper.

Edyt, personally I'd much rather save babies' lives than hurt your fragile feelings. People standing in front of clinics don't "impose fear, guilt and misery" on women - only a woman could impose such things on herself. The truth really does hurt, doesn't it? And you seem really confused about what causes emotional distress - you are aware of post-abortive stress syndrome of course? You are grossly over-exaggerating what protesters do in front of a clinic.

Yes women have a legal right to walk into the PP clinic, and we have a legal right to stand in front and protest. If you don't like it, tough.

And I find your last line humorously ignorant. Are you aware that PP does almost 200 abortions for every adoption referral? That they do not counsel about all options, want women to have time to think an abortion over, or provide pre-natal care if the woman opts to choose life? Yes, choosing to have the baby is actually an option!!!!!

that is to say, to "NOT" hurt Edyt's fragile feelings.

The Bible says a "righteous man" which, it is plain to see, you are not. As it was in the Bible, Mary's righteous father picked her husband and Mary was subservient to him.

I am subservient to my husband but he is also righteous and would not ask anything of me that is not moral and good. He does not dictate my life and while I expect many "feminists" to laugh and say I'm less than intelligent, it does not bother me. I love him and because of the way he has treated me over the course of our marriage makes me love him all the more. THAT is what God intended and what the passage in the Bible means.

Ever hear the line "I will keep my philanthropies ever before my eyes."? That was said by the Pharisees who would go around with a book, literally before their eyes, where they would record every good deed they did. The problem was they didn't record the bad things, which far outweighed the good. And that is how you interpret the Bible. By using the words against God to make a point that was not intended.

Don't worry. I don't expect you to agree.

Edyt,

Perhaps in your supportive role for all opinions you might want to take a look around and realize that many people on this site are hurting right now.

Overflowing with compassion as you are, I'm surprised you haven't recognized that now might not be the best time to approach the subject of baby slaughter. Perhaps tomorrow would be better.

But of course, you know that, because you are the epitome of charity.

Phooey, Phooey and more Phooey.

Anyone can take any bible verse out of context as Edyt is going, but the fact remains that the whole context reveals that it is always wrong to kill your baby, a gift from God, and there are no major religions that say abortion is OK so Edyt cannot use the bible to argue for abortion. Been tried, doesn't work.

Lynn,

You would think that if "support and compassion" did not dictate that Edyt should run while she can, intelligence would.

Perhaps she is lacking in both.

I feel bad that we are using her as our whipping boy, but sheesh, what kind of fool would walk into a tiger's den and then act surprised when she gets bitten.

Sorry Edyt, we're pissed, you're here saying all the wrong things, and we are reacting badly.

I think I'll quit whilst I'm only slightly behind.

Edyt,
So women have the right to do what they want with their own bodies...unless it involves praying outside a PP clinic?

Guilt comes from shame. And what do they have to be ashamed of? Think about it.

Sally,

When I was making mudpies you weren't even born yet so put a sock in it. It is up to the posters on this blog who claim that the women of Aurora will finally have affordable and accessible health care to back up their claim by showing how the women of Aurora never had any such access to begin with. I never made any claims of any kind.
Where do you get the bit about religion and how do you know what I think about what God did or didn't do? Since I never discuss religion on this blog, you must be some kind of clairvoyant.

Posted by: Mary at October 1, 2007 8:28 PM
...............................................

Mary, if you are over 50 and in fact older than I, you probably weren't encouraged to make mud pies. If your choice of being anti choice isn't religously based, what the hell are you doing supporting this blog?

Finally, took them long enough. Glad its opened, seems as if my prediction has come true, at least at this point.

I'm glad its open. Say whatever you want to say to me, but its true and its unlikely to change anytime soon. PP has every right to open its doors wherever zoning laws allow it to, just as any other organization does, whether its a clinic, CPC, PP, a campaign, an adult book store, a convenience store, a computer shop, or any other service.

Just because the citizens don't like it doesn't mean it should be denied use of the property that it bought and paid for and zoned for the business it will be conducting. You don't want it to say? Don't go there, and eventually it will close its doors. That simple.

But of course, you're worried that PP will detract from every other source of affordable health services in the area, and provide abortions to boot.

BTW, sorry I haven't been on more often. The college application process + school really sucks.

If your choice of being anti choice isn't religously based, what the hell are you doing supporting this blog?

Posted by: Sally at October 1, 2007 9:18 PM

Sally you really are dense. There are plenty of non-religious people that think abortion is wrong. You have GOT to stop making these really dumb statements. Google “atheist against abortion” only 1.4 MILLION results show up. Can you please check your facts first?

Mary - not that I think your an athiest or anything... But if you are I'm good with that. Although I'll pray for you. ;)

From this morning when the site had problems:

Does that mean they are cookies when Doug says so? Or when the 10 minutes are up and Doug is still eating cookie dough?

MK, they are cookies when I say so.

And what's so bad about eating cookie dough? I'm just trying to beat that woman's record - the one Erin said drank four bottles of vanilla extract.

Old Scottish toast:

Here's to you,
As good as you are,
And here's to me,
As bad as I am.
But as bad as I am,
And as good as you are,
I'm good as you are,
As bad as I am.

"I cannot believe his audacity in thinking he can unilaterally make such a monumental decision with national eyes watching sans input from the City Council or the people of Aurora."

He probably learned that kind of behavior from the Governor of Illinois.

Attention pro-aborts: Please show me where in the Bible it says that it's wrong to kill babies. I don't believe it ever does, at least not clearly. No matter how often we point to this fact, or the fact that we oppose abortion simply because it kills what is scientifically a living human being and the most basic ethical code informs us that slaughtering defenseless innocents is wrong, you always go back to saying that we're just trying to force our religion on you.

The problem with the pro-abortion position is that rather that being based on thought and reason, it's based on a retreat from both thought and reason. It's all about changing the subject, pretending that there's no child, ignoring science, and arbitrarily declaring that your opponents hate women.

Sally you really are dense. There are plenty of non-religious people that think abortion is wrong.

And there are a lot of religious people who think denying a woman the right to an abortion is wrong. This swings both ways.

And there are a lot of religious people who think denying a woman the right to an abortion is wrong. This swings both ways.

Posted by: Leah at October 1, 2007 9:35 PM

Right. Like Edyt apparently.

Sally - as I've said in previous posts. My insurance stinks and I go to the DuPage County health clinic to get my PAPs. It's been there since my college days (longer ago than I care to admit.) Kane County has a health center (although I haven't been there.) I went to a Catholic College so the health center wasn't too keen on giving BC but I know every college has a health center and there are several colleges in the area. (Yes, only current students have that option.) Is that enough proof, I can go on if you need but it'd be pretty boring. They all provide health services, though not abortion services but I think you were just asking about low cost BC, PAPs and screenings. When I've gone I've never waited longer than 45 minutes which I think is better than most doctors’ offices. Would you like the number? They are really nice there.

If you were fighting to get my PAPs covered you did a pretty poor job. I'd go so far as to say a piss-poor job, seeing as how they ARE NOT covered.

Posted by: Kristen at October 1, 2007 8:19 PM
...................................
Honey, if any establishment has a health care clinic you can thank me. I'm sorry if your Catholic institution doesn't bother with well care/prevention of possibly terminal disease because that disease might involve your icky poo poo satanistic body parts. If your idiotic faith based medical facility won't be bothered with what might kill you, PP will.

Sally you are too dumb for words. I didn't say they wouldn't treat you for health issues (including STDs) but they wouldn't prescribe birth control to students. The students went to the County Health Department to get it.

And WHY am I supposed to thank you "if any establishment has a health care clinic." It's for men as well. I thought feminists drew the line there.

I thought I was supposed to thank you for my PAPs being covered by my insurance. You'll have to wait until that actually happens for my "thank you."

Sally, do you realize that the notion that Catholics find certain body parts to be "icky" or "evil" is fallacious, defamatory, and the result of ridiculous distortions and oversimplifications of Catholic teaching? Nowhere in the Catechism of the Catholic Church will you find anything about certain body parts being inherently bad.

The same goes for your notion that those of us who are pro-life oppose PP because of their supposed health services. No, we oppose PP because they kill babies. We don't care what else they do. They kill babies, so we're against them. It's really that simple.

f your choice of being anti choice isn't religously based, what the hell are you doing supporting this blog?

Posted by: Sally at October 1, 2007 9:18 PM

Sally you really are dense. There are plenty of non-religious people that think abortion is wrong. You have GOT to stop making these really dumb statements. Google “atheist against abortion” only 1.4 MILLION results show up. Can you please check your facts first?

Posted by: Kristen at October 1, 2007 9:26 PM
...................
Kristen, I'm not an atheist. Can you find your buttocks with both hands? Jumping to conclusions is all you PL folks have. And they are based on presumptions. Would you like to pretend that you would know a fact if it splapped you upside the head?

Lynn, you wrote: "SoMG it's very clear that when women have waiting periods or time to think less of them go through with the abortion."

Clear to whom? Cite a reliable source, please, when you say something like this. To me it seems counterintuitive--I can't imagine a pregnant woman who wants an abortion saying to herself "Oh dear, if I have to wait 24 hours between the time I first consult the abortion doc and the time I get the abortion, I'm going to grow the pregnancy, endure labor and delivery, and bear a child I don't want instead in order to avoid the inconvenience of a 24 hour delay." Maybe I lack imagination but I just can't picture anyone seriously reasoning this way.

You added: "That's why you pro-choicers and PP are so against 24 hour or other mandatory waiting periods."

No, it's because mandatory waiting periods inconvenience some women (those who have to travel for their abortions) and infantilize all women.

Sally - SHOW ME THE POST WHERE I SAID YOU WERE AN ANTHIEST. I'm not the one jumping to any conclusions. YOU are the one that asked if Mary wasn't religious why in hell was she supporting this blog.

You concluded that Mary was religious because she was supporting the blog. I gave you clear evidence of non-religious people against abortion.

Maybe you need to lie down and take a load off. The pressure is getting to you.

And so it goes. Unfortunately, I think those of us who have a foot in reality knew that the time would come when this travesty of a business would be allowed to open its doors. Money speaks. Period.

I am exceedingly disappointed in our mayor. He has not acted in an honorable manner in that he has not honored his promises to keep this process open and public. It would appear he's had enough of this already and made the decision on his own. What comes around goes around. In due time he will learn from his mistakes. Unfortunately again, it is in God's time, not ours.

Meanwhile, back in my neck of the woods, I get to worry about the death of innocents, the traffic invading my neighborhood, and oh yeah -- that bulletproof glass. Sure wish someone had asked ME how I felt about all of this before they surreptitiously built this death trap.........

Sally,

I made my share of mudpies and sand cakes.

Your assumption that all people who oppose abortion are religious is baseless, as Kristen points out. Also, I'm anti-abortion, not anti-choice. There are plenty of choices I support the right of people to make, such as religion.
Abortion is not a religious issue, its a moral and ethical one. Religious people vehemently opposed slavery, the first anti-slavery organization in this country was formed by Quakers, and clergy thundered from the pulpit against the evils of slavery. This did not make slavery a religious issue.
The civil rights movement was also very religiously oriented, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a minister. Clergy of all faiths marched in civil rights demonstrations. This did not make civil rights a religious issue.
Slavery, civil rights, and abortion are all MORAL issues. People of all faiths, and no faith, can agree on these issues.
We hear all this howling about separation of church and state but if you review our country's history you will find that religious people have long played an active role in social change and justice. There is also an interesting double standard with the separation of church and state. There's one standard for the Rev.Pat Robertson, and another for the Rev. Jesse Jackson.
My opposition to abortion is not religiously based. Neither is my support of civil rights nor my opposition to slavery and segregation.

Kristen,

Thank you for your kind remarks, they are very much appreciated.

SoMG said: "No, it's because mandatory waiting periods inconvenience some women (those who have to travel for their abortions) and infantilize all women."

Well, we certainly wouldn't want to infantilize their unborn children... oops, I mean, meaningless clumps of cells. How long are we going to pretend that there's no baby involved in a pregnancy?

MK, you wrote: "Good psychopaths know how to mimic empathy. Apparently, you're not even very good at being a sociopath."

I understand how you feel.

Clear to whom? Cite a reliable source, please, when you say something like this. To me it seems counterintuitive--I can't imagine a pregnant woman who wants an abortion saying to herself "Oh dear, if I have to wait 24 hours between the time I first consult the abortion doc and the time I get the abortion, I'm going to grow the pregnancy, endure labor and delivery, and bear a child I don't want instead in order to avoid the inconvenience of a 24 hour delay." Maybe I lack imagination but I just can't picture anyone seriously reasoning this way.

You added: "That's why you pro-choicers and PP are so against 24 hour or other mandatory waiting periods."

No, it's because mandatory waiting periods inconvenience some women (those who have to travel for their abortions) and infantilize all women.

Posted by: SoMG at October 1, 2007 9:50 PM

Here is a credible source. I can send you the link if you like, and several others to boot.

"You are going to see, as we all share our testimonies, that every abortion clinic is unique in the fact that they are all different, even
though they do the same thing. In this particular abortion clinic, when the girl set up her appointment, IF THE GIRL SOUNDED EVEN THE LEAST BIT ANXIOUS TO MAKE THE APPOINTMENT FOR THAT DAY, THEY DID NOT WANT HER TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE HER MIND or to have someone talk her out of it, or the possibility of her going to another abortion clinic."

It's just my opinion but a 24 hour waiting period isn't too much to ask if it will save some girls/women the grief of a wrong decision. Or is the pro-women thing only for the woman being "inconvenienced?"

SOMG,

Any patient having surgery must first visit the surgeon, be assessed and advised on risks and alternatives, and then go home and make a decision. Even patients who have travelled great distances and are being greatly inconvenienced. I've never heard anyone squawk that this is infantilizing patients or causing them great inconvenience, which sometimes it is. This is considered the a standard of patient care and safety, something that apparently shouldn't, and does not, apply to the abortion industry.

John L: Please show me where in the Bible it says that it's wrong to kill babies. I don't believe it ever does, at least not clearly. No matter how often we point to this fact, or the fact that we oppose abortion simply because it kills what is scientifically a living human being and the most basic ethical code informs us that slaughtering defenseless innocents is wrong, you always go back to saying that we're just trying to force our religion on you.

The problem with the pro-abortion position is that rather that being based on thought and reason, it's based on a retreat from both thought and reason. It's all about changing the subject, pretending that there's no child, ignoring science, and arbitrarily declaring that your opponents hate women.

John, the Bible doesn't prohibit abortion, certainly. People were having abortions back then, and it's pretty farfetched that nothing would be said if the writers of the bible were against it, considering all the detailed stuff in Mosaic law, etc.

Yes, "scientifically a living human being." - agreed. But you're wrong about it being wrong to have an abortion. There is no "most basic" thing that says that. I know you don't like abortion, but that's far from the whole deal here. There is also the woman to connsider, for one big and important deal.

Nobody is telling you that the unborn "have defenses" or are "guilty." There's no capacity for guilt, is there?

Not to say that religion or philosophy is "bad" per se, but you are inserting your opinion as if it's some external truth, and that is not the way things really are.

"Child" is subjective. There is the physical reality of the unborn, however, and that really is not at issue. It's not lacking in thought or reason to note that people have been having abortions for thousands and thousands of years. If there was a demonstrable, real *need* to further restrict or ban abortion, it wouldn't even be much of an argument, but it's not that way.

This is your wishes against the wishes of pregnant women. I don't think we should force abortion on women, nor force gestation nor adoption. I don't see your desire trumping the desires of the people who are actually pregnant. I say let them make their own best choice in this matter.

Doug

Kristen, you wrote: "It's just my opinion but a 24 hour waiting period isn't too much to ask..."

Not too much to "ask", but yes too much to FORCE on the patient.

You continued: "...if it will save some girls/women the grief of a wrong decision. "

Who are you to say which decision is wrong? I think she gets to decide that for herself.

You don't know which decision will cause her more grief.

Mary, that's because abortion (early in pregnancy), unlike surgery, does not involve cutting the patient and does not incur serious risk to her health.

Take heart....

From Martin Luther King:

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Sally,

Honey, if any establishment has a health care clinic you can thank me.

Don't flatter yourself. My college had a health care clinic when you were barely out of diapers. It treated STDs, did every kind of exam, male and female, and yes dispensed birth control. It also had an area to treat students on an inpatient basis when necessary, usually when a student needed IV therapy.

SOMG,

That's debatable. There are risks as there are with any type of surgical procedure.

Library Betty,

Thank you for the inspiring words by Dr.King.
Now there's a man who had every reason to throw his hands up in despair. Thankfully he never did.

Kristin, by "source" I don't mean quoting what a religious right-to-life convert says was PP's policy. I mean a study that counts the number of women who enter an abortion doc's office or clinic, are told they must wait 24 hours before the abortion, and actually change their minds, as compared with women who don't have to wait 24 hours.

the Bible doesn't prohibit abortion, certainly

Doug,

What part of the 5th commandment don't you understand...

"Thou Shall Not Kill".

or do you need to see pictures?

Mike

Mike, the commandment says "Thou shalt not commit murder." It does not say "Thou shalt not kill."

"Thou Shall Not Kill"

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/fifth.html

Mike, that's a mistranslation. Human error, not the Bible's words.

Pro choice and Pro women's health win.

forced gestation anti choicers - zero

I am not a lawyer, but here is how I see this, and what I see playing out.




Let's start with -




I agree that the land is zoned for B2 as Luetkenhans found




I agree that a medical clinic is a allowed in a B2 district




I agree that Gemini - being the owner if the building will be granted occupancy as Luetkenhans suggested.




I agree with Martens that on page 8 of his memo where he indicates that "any owner or authorized agent who intendeds to construct ... or change the occupancy of a building, must obtain the required permit." As we know, Gemini is the owner - Planned Parenthood is the tenant; therefore Gemini is granted the occupancy, but to allow for Planned Parenthood to occupy, they must apply for a new permit - as this would be a "change the occupancy of a building."




I agree with Martens that Gemini is a for profit entity and the owner of the property.




I agree with Martens that he is unable to determine if Planned Parenthood has a lease with Gemini (in the future they will need one)




So given this, and if I understand the building codes correctly - let me start with an example.




If I want to construct a strip mall in a B2 district I would need to obtain all the permits to do so. Once those permits were obtained, and the building is finished, and all occupancy permits have been approved, tenants we allowed to lease and occupy the building under the conditions of the B2 zoning; and they would have every right to do so. Then in the future, another company comes to me requesting to lease space in order to put a bowling alley in the building. Since this is a change in the occupancy of a building (from vacant to new tenant) they are required to file for a new permit for their type of business. Now since a bowling alley is allowed in B2 they have every right to be there. However, bowling alleys are required to follow the special use permitting procedures (under the category 5200 Special purpose recreational institutions). Now, before this bowling alley can occupy my space they are required to obtain the special use permit, they can however, install the lanes, pins, counters etc. at their own risk. But in doing so, they run the risk of denial from the permit approvals. If they pass the approval process, the occupancy permit for their special use is granted in the name of the tenant and not the building owner.




In this situation we have a direct parallel. Gemini is the owner of the building. All of the documentation included in the reports state this. The area is zoned for B2. Gemini can operate a medical clinic in its building. Now, Gemini wishes to lease the building to its new tenant, Planned Parenthood. Since the occupancy of the building will change, due to this leasing arrangement (from Gemini to Planned Parenthood), the must apply for a new permit. Now, since Planned Parenthood is a not-for-profit organization they fall into the category of "6630 Social Service Agencies, Charitable Organizations, Health Related Facilities, and similar uses when not operated for pecuniary profit" As such, in order to operate in a B2 district they are required to file for a special use permit for their occupancy - as they fall into a different category as they are a separate entity from Gemini (one being not for profit and the other being for profit)




To me this is a simple A to B to C.




Planned Parenthood is required to follow the special use permitting process if they wish to occupy and use Gemini's facility.




I believe that both of these attorneys were given clear instructions to look into the process with respect to Gemini's dealings with the City. This however, fails to address the undeniable truth that Planned Parenthood will occupy that building, and there will be a leasing agreement between the two entities. I also believe that this is why the attorneys narrowly focused their investigation and memos on Gemini and not Planned Parenthood. Also, I think both of them knew this was coming and provided us with the road map within their findings.




Once Planned Parenthood has the lease and is occupying the building, I believe the City will have all the evidence it needs to force Planned Parenthood into following the special use permitting process to use the building; otherwise their occupation will be unlawful.




Perhaps the Mayor is smart, because I assume that he knows this, and will take the actions necessary, once the City's zoning laws are violated. Planned Parenthood may not have broken any laws yet. But once they occupy that building, and begin business they will.

Please note the footer at the bottom of the Memo from Phillip A Luetkehans.

"Given the expedited time frame within which a report was due because of federal court litigation, this report is a summary of our findings and research. We have not yet received all the information requested from City staff."

Now didn't the Mayor promise the public that this would not be rushed?

Here is the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ7J_59XOpE

Just heard the great news through a friend. Glad to see there are still sane people in this world who both support a woman's right to choose and the right to bodily autonomy.

Only 5 showed, huh? At least they stood against adversity. Sounds kind of like those 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermapolyae. Good for them.

People are all for free speech, until somebody pushes their buttons.

Two hands working can do more than 1000 hands clasped in prayer.

A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?

Hypocrisy is the lubricant of society

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

Most people on here = idiots.
Idiot, noun: a member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. This is exactly why I never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

You little lemurs absolutely do not know when to quit. But, just to end this on a good note, I have a saying for you. *Erhem*

"Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win AND never quit are IDIOTS."

Bon soir!

I love how you have made the leap from the mayor's press conference, at which he said this:

"As elected officials, we are sworn to uphold the law regardless of our personal emotional or even religious beliefs," said Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner at a press conference at City Hall. "Based upon the opinions of these three attorneys, the city of Aurora has no legal basis to deny Planned Parenthood an occupancy certificate."

...to this:

It really does appear as if the fix was in between Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner and Planned Parenthood.

Is everything Planned Parenthood does a conspiracy?

Is everything Planned Parenthood does a conspiracy?

Posted by: Ray at October 2, 2007 3:29 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't you remember when they shot Kennedy, kidnapped Hoffa, took over Area 51, broke the DeVinci code and piloted those planes into the World Trade Center Towers?
Don't mess with 'em man! They'll pull you into their matrix!

Yeah, not to mention the conspiracy by pro-life organizations to blow up abortion clinics!

SoMG,

MK, you wrote: "Good psychopaths know how to mimic empathy. Apparently, you're not even very good at being a sociopath."
*

Much better. I knew you could do it.

Pro-life organizations blowing up abortion clinics?
That is SO 1985 - but then, so is this article.
(I love that John Burt was mentioned in this article. This was back when he was a pro-life OUTLAW, you know, before he was jailed for molesting a 15-year-old girl at his home for unwed mothers...)

Explosions Over Abortion
Time Magazine

The pressure on the President had been building for months. Despite a score of bombings and torchings of abortion clinics across the U.S. last year, Ronald Reagan, a firm foe of abortion, had remained silent. FBI Director William Webster had claimed that the violence was not the result of a conspiracy and thus did not constitute a form of political terrorism that his agency could investigate. Pro-choice leaders contended that the federal silence was encouraging the violence. Asked Judy Goldsmith, president of the National Organization for Women: "Where is the great advocate of law-and- order?" Then came three bombings on Christmas Day in Pensacola, Fla., and one early New Year's morning in Washington, D.C. Goldsmith dashed off a telegram to the President, urging him to condemn "the terrorist acts in the same strong terms you condemn the attacks of international terrorists upon American citizens."

In the wake of these attacks--making 15 in the past four months--the President last week finally removed any doubt about how he viewed the abortion bombings. "I will do all in my power to assure that the guilty are brought to justice," he said. "I condemn, in the strongest terms, those individuals who perpetrate these and all such violent, anarchist activities." He ordered Attorney General William French Smith to make sure that federal agencies work cooperatively to investigate and prosecute the crimes.

One focus of controversy has been the FBI's reluctance to label the bombings as terrorist acts and take charge of the cases. In fact, the bombings at abortion clinics have been investigated actively and effectively by the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which has legal jurisdiction in federal cases involving explosives. It has thrown fully 500 of its 1,200 agents at the abortion-clinic incidents. The FBI has backed BATF with help on fingerprints and psychological profiles of likely suspects. Declared Webster last week: "If someone wants to call this a terrorist act in a semantical term, I'm not going to quarrel with it. I have offered the full resources of the FBI."

The federal presence has not stemmed the antiabortion violence. There were three bomb or arson attacks on abortion facilities in 1982, two in 1983, but 24 last year. Still, the BATF agents, working with local police, have an impressive record. Nearly half of all the crimes are considered "solved," meaning that there have been either arrests or convictions. In sentencing the bombers or arsonists, judges have ignored pleas that the acts were motivated by religion or politics and harmed only property. (No one has been injured in any of the attacks.) The sentences have been stiff.

Two Texas men were sentenced to 30 years in prison for the 1982 bombings of two clinics in Florida. One of them had been joined by the other man's brother in the kidnaping of an Illinois doctor who performed abortions and the physician's wife. The three men claimed they belonged to the Army of God, a group that investigators insist had only the three members, although anonymous callers claiming responsibility for later attacks have used the same name. Curtis Anton Beseda, an unemployed roofer, confessed his guilt while on trial for four arson attacks last year on clinics in Everett and Bellingham, Wash. He said he had done the torchings "for the glory of God." He was sentenced to 20 years and ordered to pay $298,000 for the damage he had caused. Says John Killorin, spokesman for the BATF: "We don't buy the defense that this is just property damage. The natural consequence of a bomb is loss of life."

+ The explosion that ripped through the Hillcrest Women's Surgi-Center in Washington, D.C., last week shattered 230 windows in two nearby apartment buildings. "It sounded like a war was going on," said one woman after watching her bedroom window collapse at 12:10 on New Year's morning. A caller claiming to be a member of the apparently nonexistent Army of God took responsibility for the bombing attack.

The Christmas explosions in Pensacola damaged the Ladies Center Inc., an abortion facility, destroyed the rented offices of Dr. William Permenter, a gynecologist who devotes only about 10% of his practice to abortions, and damaged the clinic of Dr. Bo Bagenholm, an obstetrician who performs some abortions. Permenter said he would stop his abortion practice. "You can't get an office, because people don't want their buildings burned down," he explained of the climate that has been created. "This has become a nightmare." Bagenholm, though, has found new office space and vows to carry on. Said he: "The only way I'll stop doing abortions is if the laws are changed. I'm not going to give in to terrorism. You expect right-to-lifers to be nonviolent."

BATF agents soon arrested four young people and charged them with violating federal firearms and explosive laws: Matthew Goldsby, 21, a construction worker; Kaye Wiggins, 18, his fiancee; James Simmons, 21, a glass-company worker; Kathy Simmons, 18, his wife. Wiggins said at a press conference that the bombings were meant to be "a gift to Jesus on his birthday." Pro-life leaders in Pensacola, anxious to dissociate themselves from the violence, said that the four had not been active in their movement.

Some antiabortion activists admitted to having mixed emotions about the bombings. "This isn't terrorism," insisted the Rev. David Shofner, pastor of West Pensacola Baptist Church and a frequent picketer at abortion clinics. "This is destruction of property. History will prove that the bombers will be the heroes because they stopped the killing of babies." Declared John Burt, head of Our Father's House, a Pensacola home for unmarried mothers: "I don't approve of the means, but I'm glad that the killing has stopped. Upwards of 350 babies are killed each week in Pensacola."

The overwhelming majority of anti-abortion activists nationwide, however, have come out strongly and clearly against the clinic bombings. When Washington Mayor Marion Barry said that "the Jerry Falwells of the world ( ought to condemn this type of terrorist activity," Falwell heatedly noted that he had. Said the Moral Majority leader: "The bombings are criminal and terroristic and very damaging to the cause of the unborn." Joseph Scheidler, executive director of the Chicago-based Pro-Life Action League, has been arrested six times for illegal picketing of abortion facilities and has written a book called Closed: Ninety-Nine Ways to Shut Down the Abortion Industry. Yet last week he said of the violence, "We understand why it occurs. Still, I reject it. I don't think it is helpful, or that it will work to change anything. We prefer persuasion."

While falling far short of bombings, the protest activities of antiabortion militants have become increasingly and unquestionably nasty. Patients visiting many of the roughly 800 clinics and 900 doctors' offices where abortions are performed have been harassed by pickets, who push them away from entrances for "sidewalk counseling" that often involves showing them photographs of nearly full-term fetuses. The recorded cries of infants have been sent into clinics from outside. Women seeking abortions have been videotaped, the license plates of cars delivering them have been noted and calls made to their homes. Tires of autos at the clinics have been deflated and car windows smashed. After a San Diego clinic was fire bombed last September, Director Carol Roberts got a note saying, "Death stalks at your job, murderous bitch." Said she: "Every time the phone rings, I go into sheer panic." Some protesters have berated pregnant women within the clinics while pretending to be patients who have changed their minds about an abortion.

"This may not be violence in the strict sense," says Barbara Shaw, information coordinator at Chicago Planned Parenthood, "but it is mental menace that inspires fear, and that certainly is a form of terrorism." A few of the bombings have followed intensive picketing activity; some pro- choice advocates contend that the connection is not coincidental. "People feed on their own charged rhetoric and bloody fetus posters," argues Janet Pelz, Washington State director of the National Abortion Rights Action League. "And that gives rise to the violence we are seeing nationwide."

Pro-life and pro-choice forces are bracing for competing observances on Jan. 22, the twelfth anniversary of the Supreme Court decision, Roe vs. Wade, that struck down most legal restrictions on abortion. The right-to-life movement hopes to draw more than 50,000 for its march up Pennsylvania Avenue. Leaders expect to meet with Reagan in the morning and distribute roses, the symbol of their crusade, to Congressmen in the afternoon. Falwell has called for a "national day of mourning" and is asking his followers to wear black armbands "in remembrance" of all aborted babies. Among the demonstrations planned by pro-choice activists is one in Florida's Broward County, where the local chapter of NOW plans a giant birthday party for the members of the Supreme Court. "We will extend our hope that they will all outlive this Administration," said Amy Greenman, president of the chapter.

With reporting by Reported by Patricia Delaney/Washington and B. Russell Leavitt/Pensacola, with other bureaus

I hope they are able to help women get affordable health care and provide good unbiased information for every choice.

They'd have to actually start WANTING to do that. They're gonna do what they always do -- lie, bamboozle, and make money hand over fist while keeping the "undesirables" from breeding.

I pray to God none of you show up at the clinic tomorrow to make young women feel bad for getting .... not for choosing to have an abortion.

You gotta be freaking kidding! The only way a woman goes to PP and ends up NOT getting an abortion is if somebody was asleep at the switch, or she had zero intent of aborting in the first place and walked into PP by mistake.

You gotta be freaking kidding! The only way a woman goes to PP and ends up NOT getting an abortion is if somebody was asleep at the switch, or she had zero intent of aborting in the first place and walked into PP by mistake.

Posted by: Christina at October 2, 2007 6:14 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Funny, only 3% of Planned Parenthood's business is abortion-related.
I've walked into Planned Parenthood many times, and I've never had an abortion.
(Actually, I've never had an abortion BECAUSE I went to Planned Parenthood...)

"Sounds kind of like those 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermapolyae."

The REAL battle of THERMOPYLAE had more than 3000 Spartans and allies. Please know your history instead of ignorantly believing what a Hollywood movie puts in front of you.

It's raining here in Central Florida. Perfectly fits the mood I'm in upon hearing the tragic news.

Is the current mayor of Aurora seeking re-election? If so, when are the elections?

Maybe he'll get the hint then.

Laura,

I read the article. Where does it say there is a conspiracy to blow up clinics by pro-life organizations? If anything, the article points out legitimate pro-life leaders and organizations condemned the bombings.
It names a few people involved as belonging to the Army of God. Otherwise they don't name anyone so one can only make assumptions as to who is responsible.
The environmental and animal rights movements also have their extremists who set fires, vandalize, and threaten and harass people. People like this are found in all political and religious causes.
Also, if this is such a problem, can you find something a little closer to 2007? Time magazine was also not the most unbiased source you could have chosen.

"Perhaps the Mayor is smart, because I assume that he knows this, and will take the actions necessary, once the City's zoning laws are violated. Planned Parenthood may not have broken any laws yet. But once they occupy that building, and begin business they will."

Charles,
Please clear this up for me. Does your statement mean that the mayor expects to have to go through another round of battles once PP starts? As I understand it, PP has already started business, so we should be seeing another flurry of we did not/yes, you did skirmishes, like NOW.

You do have to feel sorry for people who are happy when a death clinic opens.

I could be wrong but, I think there will be another legal matter before the city, and the Mayor, very shortly. I think he has to let this play out for a little bit.

Doug said: "Not to say that religion or philosophy is "bad" per se, but you are inserting your opinion as if it's some external truth, and that is not the way things really are."

Actually you have it completely backwards. The pro-abortion side is inserting the opinion that unborn life doesn't matter in place of the external, objective truth that innocent human life is not to be killed. You play word games, and say that a child is not necessarily a child. It's preposterous. We say that a child is a child is a child. It is a self-evident reality which pro-aborts 'choose' to ignore. The only time you acknowledge the life of the child is when you weigh it against the convenience of the mother, and you always side in favor of the convenience of the mother over the life of the child.

Sure, abortion has been around for centuries. So have slavery, rape, and murder. Do you justify those by saying that they've been around since the beginning of humanity? Should we just throw up our hands and go ahead and legalize slavery, rape, and murder, because after all, our laws banning them aren't stopping them? Or do we continue to fight against them?

SoMG said: "Mike, the commandment says "Thou shalt not commit murder." It does not say "Thou shalt not kill.""

What difference does it make? Unless you want to argue that because under the law of the United States abortion is currently not considered murder, that makes it OK by the Ten Commandments. But that would be like saying that in God's eyes, the murder of slaves is OK as long as society doesn't recognize them as full persons. Sorry, but stupid fads and the degradation of society don't change objective truth.

the Bible doesn't prohibit abortion, certainly

Doug,

What part of the 5th commandment don't you understand...

"Thou Shall Not Kill".

or do you need to see pictures?

Mike

Oh come on, Mike. The Old Testament is chock-full of killing. Orders to kill, rules for killing, situations when killing was called for, etc.

The real meaning of the Commandment, as well as the actual wording in several Bible versions, is "Thou shalt nor murder," and abortion was not held to be murder in biblical times.

John L: Actually you have it completely backwards. The pro-abortion side is inserting the opinion that unborn life doesn't matter in place of the external, objective truth that innocent human life is not to be killed. You play word games, and say that a child is not necessarily a child. It's preposterous. We say that a child is a child is a child. It is a self-evident reality which pro-aborts 'choose' to ignore. The only time you acknowledge the life of the child is when you weigh it against the convenience of the mother, and you always side in favor of the convenience of the mother over the life of the child.

Wrong. "Doesn't matter" is not the deal. That is you saying that. A pregnancy may matter a huge, HUGE deal. It's up to the woman or couple involved. "Innocent" doesn't matter in the absence of the capacity for guilt. If you see somebody saying the unorn are "guilty" of something, then you've got an argument. But with the Pro-Choice position you do not. Yes, "child" is subjective. Heck, you can call the unborn anything.
......

Sure, abortion has been around for centuries. So have slavery, rape, and murder. Do you justify those by saying that they've been around since the beginning of humanity?

Nope - with regard to those others, there really isn't significant disagreement about them. Of course, there are the relatively few people who would be for slavery at this time (presumably picturing themselves among the masters, rather than the slaves), same as there are some people who would have their will forced over the will of pregnant women.
......

Should we just throw up our hands and go ahead and legalize slavery, rape, and murder, because after all, our laws banning them aren't stopping them? Or do we continue to fight against them?

Of course not - those "shoulds" you mention are not supported by any significant amount of people, when you get right down to it. With respect to abortion rights, it is of course a much different deal.
.....

SoMG said: "Mike, the commandment says "Thou shalt not commit murder." It does not say "Thou shalt not kill.""

What difference does it make? Unless you want to argue that because under the law of the United States abortion is currently not considered murder, that makes it OK by the Ten Commandments. But that would be like saying that in God's eyes, the murder of slaves is OK as long as society doesn't recognize them as full persons. Sorry, but stupid fads and the degradation of society don't change objective truth.

Abortion was okay under the Ten Commandments, period. Abortion was not held to be "murder" in biblical times.

Doug

Kristin, by "source" I don't mean quoting what a religious right-to-life convert says was PP's policy. I mean a study that counts the number of women who enter an abortion doc's office or clinic, are told they must wait 24 hours before the abortion, and actually change their minds, as compared with women who don't have to wait 24 hours.

Posted by: SoMG at October 1, 2007 10:40 PM

So she must be lying since she's now a convert, of course! How silly of me. Boy, you guys won't believe PLs or ex-abortion workers, but you'll continue to blindly follow anything PP and their ilk ram down your throat!

Posted by: Laura at October 2, 2007 6:21 AM

Funny, only 3% of Planned Parenthood's business is abortion-related.

I've walked into Planned Parenthood many times, and I've never had an abortion.

(Actually, I've never had an abortion BECAUSE I went to Planned Parenthood...)

There's nothing funny about killing babies. 3% or 10% or whatever percent you may say, PP killed over 250,000 children last year. This is genicide on the scale of the Nazis.

As far as Laura never having had an abortion: You may never have had a surgical abortion, but if you are taking chemical contraceptives and you are engaged in a sexual relationship with a man (vs. a woman) then you very well may have killed your unborn children through the use of the chemical contraceptives which are all abortifacients. Deny it all you want, but it's the truth and someday, either in this life or in the next, you will know that truth. Better you realize it now and ask God's forgiveness and stop living an immoral life.

Does anyone know what god looked like?

Does anyone know what god looked like?

Tommy Chong, of Cheech and Chong, famously claimed to have played Black Sabbath at 78 rpm, and "saw God."

He may have just been joking, though.

Doug

Haha, God rides a Harley Davidson chopper with ape-drape handlebars, has a long beard like ZZ Top, and listens to Slayer.