From Tom Brejcha, lead attorney at Thomas More Society, comes this news.

At 9:54a this morning, right before Planned Parenthood Aurora was scheduled to open, attorney Peter Breen, on behalf of TMS, filed an appeal of the granting of the occupany permit with the Aurora Zoning Board of Appeals. He filed a copy of the appeal with the Aurora zoning administrator at 9:58a.

Explained Brejcha in an email to me....

TMS was acting on behalf of nearby property owners who are aggrieved by the violation of their rights to have notice and a public hearing on a proper application for a special use permit, which PP never applied for, let alone obtained.

We also filed on behalf of the Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood, other members of which are affected property owners and citizens of Aurora.

Thus Peter accomplished the filing before 10 a.m. when PP said that it would open for business pursuant to the occupancy permit.

This filing, legally speaking, is supposed to trigger an automatic "stay" of the decision by which the permit was granted.

Whether the decision was made by the zoning administrator or by the mayor or by other officials remains to be seen. No finding was made to the effect that any emergency would occur if the stay were honored, and the law provides that absent such a finding the stay of any further proceedings pursuant to the challenged administrative action will be effective immediately.

Again, we are testing whether Aurora will follow the law or fudge it. We're shortly to send copies of the appeal to the lawyers for Planned Parenthood and Aurora's Corporation Counsel and outside counsel.

The thrust of our appeal is rather simple and straightforward: to test whether the rule of law still applies in Aurora, as elsewhere. That is, the question is whether the city is to be run by executive fiat, where the Mayor can read out of the law those provisions that he finds politically or otherwise inconvenient... or whether those entrusted with jurisdiction to make proper planning and zoning decisions in accordance with state law and city ordinances should make those decisions on the merits, without bending the law to suit the demands of cash-rich special interests....

The only rationale I've seen so far for the other side is the zoning administrator's rather flimsy suggestion that the "non-profit" and "charitable" use category in the zoning code is somehow ambiguous (he never explains how it is so), whereas the medical office category is more specific and clear. But if there ever was a "non-profit," it's the massive tax-exempt entity called Planned Parenthood -- a charity and, as such, the beneficiary of millions of dollars in tax-exempt donations as well as government largesse.

And, of course, if our appeal is somehow brushed aside we'll most certainly have "exhausted our administrative remedies" and we'll then proceed to court to seek judicial relief.

UPDATE, 11a: Just spoke with Eric Scheidler at the PP site. "PP opened at 10a," said Eric. "We don't know if any clients have come. They had their press conference; we had ours. Press coverage was huge. All press vans are still here. We have a couple hundred people protesting and praying."

He who laughs last laughs best.

I found this on the openline blog:

"....a red pickup truck that was outfitted with signs on both sides and the back of your truck with the most horrific dead baby photos you should be ashamed of yourself. Yesterday I saw a dozen kids at Blockbuster just start crying when you drove by..."

Would this person support those kids' access to an abortion, say, today at 10:00? Since PP says minors are entitled to have abortions, certainly they should be allowed to see abortions.

Why shouldn't they see it before they "buy" it?

It is education not indoctrination. It is scientific fact.

Hippie,

Is there any concern for the gore and violence kids see in movies and video games? If anything, producers of these movies try to outdo each other in stomach churning gore.
I've even heard of programs that took teenagers to emergency rooms and morgues to see the results of gang violence and drunk driving. Hopefully, it would dissaude these young people from being involved in these activities.

I have been following this story since it broke...not only from a pro-life standpoint, but also from a land development standpoint. My husband and I are both in the Land Surveying industry and our specialty is entitlements and zoning....I smelled a rat the moment the mayor "declared" PP broke no rules and could open today. If this was any other entity that had tried to pull this the city would have shut them down like a sledgehammer and probably ordered demo of the structure. Now, if the permit is allowed to stand after the filing of the appeal then the entire Planning Dept. should be sued ALONG with the "mayor" and each member of the city council....if I owned property within 250 feet of this facility I would have ALREADY filed suit. I understand how this process works and it is NOT ambigous...there is so much corruption here it makes me sick. The only reason this is unfolding like this is PP is greasing the wheels. There is NO OTHER WAY to get around zoning laws. I hope the mayor enjoys his bloodstained sports car/speed boat/Jamacain vacation/summer home that PP just bought him.

After spending over 20 years in the veterinary medicine/animal control feilds, I believe that I can say with complete confidence-

HORSE DEAD! STOP BEATING!

Theresa,

An excellent and informative post. My husband is a contractor and when it comes to obtaining permits for anything, even if you want your basement remodelled, he makes certain every "t" is crossed and every "i" dotted.
Any mistakes or misinformation means a building torn down or an order to stop a remodelling or addition project on someone's home, about which homeowners will not be too pleased, and we would have to absorb the cost.

Laura,
I know you'd probably like that, but all along, it's been about laws being broken. I, an Aurora resident, along with countless thousands of other Aurora residents also, would like to see the truth come out. We'll stop beating the horse when he falls to his deserved demise. :)

Laura,

And we can say with complete confidence, "its not over until its over".

yeah,
I don't hear the fat lady singing yet...

In fact, always keep in mind, that in the grand scheme of things, we know who wins...

Dear Catholic bloggers--

Just bought my mom's birthday present, it is a theology book called Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians." Apparently it got rave reviews from Catholics and non-Catholics alike. At first I thought the title looked harsh but since protestants gave it 5 stars it seemed pretty safe. I thought since mommy is Catholic (obviously) it would be a good read.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898701775/sr=8-1/qid=1191348195/ref=olp_product_details/104-4287644-3707164?ie=UTF8&qid=1191348195&sr=8-1&seller=

Here is the book on Amazon. Anyone here ever read it? Or heard of it?

Heck yeah PIP! That book is fanfriggintastic! It is one of my favorite apologetics books. Keating is very fair, I believe, to our separated brethren. He hits on all the major issues that sill divide us and the "mainstream" fundamentalists. Excellent choice, my friend. God love you.

http://www.saveroe.com/images/Picture%20032.jpg

Laura, after working in horticulture for 7 years I believe I can say in full confidence that it is manure that is spilling from the mayor's mouth, not the truth.

Oh Good! Glad I made the right decision. I'll make an effort to read it after she does :)

PIP,

I just checked out Karl Keating, he looks good. I like him,... I haven't heard of him before.

...now that I like him, are you tempted to take the book back from your Mom? LOL!

Hey PIP,
Why is your Mom Catholic but you're not?

I have been following this story since it broke...not only from a pro-life standpoint, but also from a land development standpoint. My husband and I are both in the Land Surveying industry and our specialty is entitlements and zoning....I smelled a rat the moment the mayor "declared" PP broke no rules and could open today. If this was any other entity that had tried to pull this the city would have shut them down like a sledgehammer and probably ordered demo of the structure. Now, if the permit is allowed to stand after the filing of the appeal then the entire Planning Dept. should be sued ALONG with the "mayor" and each member of the city council....if I owned property within 250 feet of this facility I would have ALREADY filed suit. I understand how this process works and it is NOT ambigous...there is so much corruption here it makes me sick. The only reason this is unfolding like this is PP is greasing the wheels. There is NO OTHER WAY to get around zoning laws. I hope the mayor enjoys his bloodstained sports car/speed boat/Jamacain vacation/summer home that PP just bought him.

...and didn't someone on the Families Against Planned Parenthood website say the Mayor is "Catholic"??

What Parish does he belong to and who is the Pastor of the Parish?

Mike

Hey Jasper. You should like Karl Keating. He's the president of Catholic Answers, catholic.com . They're are very orthodox and faithful to the magesterium, much like our hero Fr. Corapi. I podcast to their radio show everyday. Really great stuff, I've grown amazingly since listening to them. God love you, Jasper.

"I podcast to their radio show everyday"

I'm going to check this out, thanks Bobby -God Bless...

Laura,

About your link. I understand a permit is required to display a banner. Do you know if PP bothered to get one?

Mary -

No, PP didn't get a permit. I called the City (Mayor's office and permits)and supposedly the Mayor told them they needed a permit. I went to the site at about 11:00 - 11:30 and it hadn't been taken down. I spoke with Eric Scheidler about it but I don't know if he's going to try to get the City to enforce the permit requirement.

I've been thinking about this clinic building, it could make a nice Crisis Pregnancy Center. This would really help pregnant women and give them and their children the dignity they deserve....oh well, it's just a pipe dream I guess....

PIP
I own that book. I am a Catholic married to a Fundamentalist (and we both got serious about religion AFTER we were married!)

Keating is an entertaining writer, makes theology easy to read and understand. I would recommend it! Also, he treats all sides fairly, without sensationalism.

Another good book is David Curries Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.

Keating's book focuses on the differences (and similarities) between the faiths; Currie's is his own conversion story to Catholicism.

Kristen,

Thanks for the info. Amazing how PP can thumb its nose at city officials.

"Catholic Answers" is my favorite media outlet. If you never listened to their programs, you are really missing out. They cover every topic imaginable.

Go to ...

http://www.catholic.com

Then click on "Radio" and then click on "View Calendar".

------

Look what's coming up on 10-17-07.

"The Great Option of Adoption".

------

Here's a relevant show you can listen to from the Audio Achives on 9-19-07.

"Are You Suffering From Post Abortion Stress"

Mike

"I've been thinking about this clinic building, it could make a nice Crisis Pregnancy Center. This would really help pregnant women and give them and their children the dignity they deserve....oh well, it's just a pipe dream I guess...."

Brilliant Jasper....in fact, it's large enough to house both a crisis pregnancy center AND adoption center. The would even have room for a store-front for a used maternity/children's charity thrift store for raising funds for the centers. Hmmmm, wait a minute...they probably couldn't get past the ZONING CODE

Milehimama,

I just looked at your blog, you have a beautiful baby- God-Bless.

Sorry--I hit a button before I was done typing! Here's my whole comment:

"I've been thinking about this clinic building, it could make a nice Crisis Pregnancy Center. This would really help pregnant women and give them and their children the dignity they deserve....oh well, it's just a pipe dream I guess...."

Brilliant Jasper....in fact, it's large enough to house both a crisis pregnancy center AND adoption center. The would even have room for a store-front for a used maternity/children's charity thrift store for raising funds for the centers. Hmmmm, wait a minute...they probably couldn't get past the ZONING CODE ON THAT ONE. Seeing as how that would be a "non profit organization which would require advanced notice of all contiguous property owners within 250 feet and a public hearing, blah, blah blah..." I wonder if the Zoning Adminisration and Planning Dept. hear only Charlie Brown's schoolteacher when anyone but $$ talks?

I have already put out word to buy the property which is that big field next to Aurora PP and build both an Adoption Agency and Crisis Pregnancy Center.

How many people do you know who would financially support this?

If we did this, we would probably drive Aurora PP out of business.

Mike

"Hmmmm, wait a minute...they probably couldn't get past the ZONING CODE"

LOL, yes, good point Teresa.

Also, if they made it an CPC/Adoption center, the women would leave feeling good about themselves, etc.

As long as we are this far off topic, my favorite Christian book is a novel called The Memoirs of Pontius Pilate:

http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Pontius-Pilate-Ballantine-Readers/dp/0345443500

Another good book is David Curries Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic

Milehimama, that's the book God used to convert me to Catholicism!

Mary,

"Thanks for the info. Amazing how PP can thumb its nose at city officials."

Posted by: Mary at October 2, 2007 2:01 PM

PP is not thumbing its nose at city officials, because the officials support them. Did you see that memo from Bill Weit that Jill posted showing that the mayor was meeting with Planned Parenthood directly months ago? PP and city officials together are thumbing their noses at the citizens of Aurora.

Filing proper permits is for peons not PP.

Those city council meetings are the appearance of propriety, not the actual thing.

This is contempt for democracy. It is a charade.

There is zero transparency.

No one answered my question yet?

Would you support buying the land next to Aurora PP (that big field) and putting a Crisis Pregnancy Center and Adoption Agency there?

Mike

"that's the book God used to convert me to Catholicism!"

Oh cool! I'll be sure to read that one too! God love you, Jacq.

Mike, sounds like a good idea. I'd donate money to help make it happen.

"Would you support buying the land next to Aurora PP (that big field) and putting a Crisis Pregnancy Center and Adoption Agency there?"

yes Mike, of course ... and I would make a good donation and contribute to the cause, etc.

After spending over 20 years in the veterinary medicine/animal control feilds, I believe that I can say with complete confidence-

HORSE DEAD! STOP BEATING!

Posted by: Laura at October 2, 2007 1:07 PM

Oh no, Laura, This has only just begun.

*sigh* Well, I guess some people just can't take a loss gracefully.

I'm pretty sure that this is the end of the line for this center. They're open for business, and they're going to stay open.

It's reality. Sorry.

About your link. I understand a permit is required to display a banner. Do you know if PP bothered to get one?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a VERY stylish church about two blocks from my home. (The architect was nothing short of genius...) Every week they rotate banners with cheerful messages like "Hear the Good News!"

Who's protesting their lack of banner permits?

THAT ONE WOMAN WE ALL HAVE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!

THE ONE WHO PHOTOGRAPHS YOUR TRASH BINS IF YOU LEAVE THEM ON THE STREET OVERNIGHT. THE ONE WHO CALLS THE COPS IF YOUR GUESTS ARE PARKED AT THE CURB FOR OVER TWO HOURS. THE ONE WHO CALLED ANIMAL CONTROL BECAUSE SHE SAID MY DOGS WERE TOO BIG - NOT LOOSE, NOT BARKING - TOO BIG!

Do you REALLY want to be that woman?

Mike - I would also donate. I think there is already something in the works for a crisis pregnancy center near there, it would be great if it was directly in front of PP!

>Would you support buying the land next to Aurora PP (that big field) and putting a Crisis Pregnancy Center and Adoption Agency there?

Mike, what would you say to the women who are just going in for a pap smear and walk into your "CPC" by mistake? "You are wicked for having a vagina! Wicked!"

I think there is already something in the works for a crisis pregnancy center near there, it would be great if it was directly in front of PP!

If it were directly in front of PP, it would no doubt put PP out of business.

Drew Mariani will be talking about PP Aurora on his radio show in a few minutes. In Chicago his radio show is on AM 820 and AM 930 or you can listen online...

http://www.relevantradio.com/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=534&srcid=-2

Mike

Jacq and Milehimama, will check out that book.

Jasper,
My mom converted when she was younger (my grandma is Methodist), and went to Rockhurst, the Jesuit college in Kansas City. My dad is not Catholic (a form of Buddhist), but per their marriage agreement we kids were all raised Catholic, and dad comes to mass on special occasions.

My religious beliefs are sort of a long story (Bobby you know!). But suffice it to say I still believe in God, Jesus, etc. I just don't feel I can go to church again for a while, for various reasons. When I do come back, it will be to Catholicism though no doubt about it, there is no way I could be a Protestant.

Ok, thanks PIP. Good-luck

"Mike, what would you say to the women who are just going in for a pap smear and walk into your "CPC" by mistake? "You are wicked for having a vagina! Wicked!"

News flash to Ignorant Ray from a vagina: Crisis Pregnancy centers offer all types of reproductive health services to women short of abortions and birth control. And guess what: PP is not the only place to get a discount Pap Smear...I got free one's at the County Health Clinic while a starving student for years. Get an education if you can't at least get a life.

To Mike: LOVE the idea....It would be the first geographic face off I'd ever heard of and I would bet a MILLION DOLLARS that PP's clinic would close in less than 2 years.

Thanks Jasper! :)
We think we'll keep him.

If it were directly in front of PP, it would no doubt put PP out of business.

Posted by: Mike at October 2, 2007 3:02 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Uh, people...

You do know that CPCs outnumber abortion clinics at a better than 2-to-one ratio, and that virtually every abortion practice in this country has a CPC within 400 yards?
Fire up your CPC. You can help the women who want to carry a crisis pregnancy, and Planned Parenthood can help those who don't.
Everybody happy!

So, it's come down to a dispute of a Banner Permit. That's big news. What other business in the state has ever been in trouble about a permit for a temporary banner? Holy Cow everyone, this is one clinic out of what, thousands? why are you getting so bent out of shape. No matter how it turns out, this battle over the Aurora clinic building permit will not make abortion more legal, less legal, or anything else. You're not advancing your agenda, and I don't understand your energy you're spending on a side-issue.

Laura,

http://www.saveroe.com/images/Picture%20032.jpg
Posted by: Laura at October 2, 2007 1:35 PM

Our tax dollars at work.

Laura,

There is a VERY stylish church about two blocks from my home. (The architect was nothing short of genius...) Every week they rotate banners with cheerful messages like "Hear the Good News!"
Who's protesting their lack of banner permits?
THAT ONE WOMAN WE ALL HAVE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!
THE ONE WHO PHOTOGRAPHS YOUR TRASH BINS IF YOU LEAVE THEM ON THE STREET OVERNIGHT. THE ONE WHO CALLS THE COPS IF YOUR GUESTS ARE PARKED AT THE CURB FOR OVER TWO HOURS. THE ONE WHO CALLED ANIMAL CONTROL BECAUSE SHE SAID MY DOGS WERE TOO BIG - NOT LOOSE, NOT BARKING - TOO BIG!
Do you REALLY want to be that woman?

NO WAY! They're aborting babies in a church? That's horrible! Of course I'd complain about the banners! The nerve!

Our tax dollars at work.

Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 3:53 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html

That must be the same church that all those dead-horse-beaters attend....

>http://www.saveroe.com/images/Picture%20032.jpg

Thanks, mk. I hadn't seen this yet. It looks great!

Incidentally, while Jesus had a much more open mind than most Christian seem to think, I am sure that even "He" would be opposed to performing abortions in a church, at least for money. He wasn't a fan of the money changers in the temple, and all. Good call!

NO WAY! They're aborting babies in a church? That's horrible! Of course I'd complain about the banners! The nerve!

Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 3:55 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nah, they hardly ever have abortions there.
(They do, however, have a very cool children's art fair. I buy pieces there so the children can go to a Jesus camp where they DON'T make the children speak in tongues, hold plasic fetuses, and cry. Mostly just food fights and the songs...)

That must be the same church that all those dead-horse-beaters attend....

Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 4:01 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They serve the most tender barbeque there!

Laura,

Wasn't that movie frightening?

Hmm. I was watching the news just now and a psychiatrist has three women accusing him of 'inappropriate touching'. Ouch, a creepy doctor who ISN'T and abortionist. No good for the generalizations about abortion doctors.

Laura,

Wasn't that movie frightening?

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 2, 2007 4:23 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I thought it was abuse.
Breaking children down until they're shrieking and Wailing?
Indoctrinating them into some kind of violent Christian jihad?
Check out "Friends of God." http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/friends_of_god/
I think the doc. replays starting at the end of this month. It features the camp kids and Ted Haggard before they became famous in other venues...

And now, there are baby monkeys on the news. Awwwww...

Speaking of news-
Breaking:

Nation's top court won't hear NJ abortion case
by Kate Coscarelli Monday October 01, 2007, 4:32 PM
The nation's highest court today declined to hear a case involving a former Somerset County woman who sued her doctor after having an abortion.

The court's order offered no reason why the justices decided not to hear the issue of whether Rosa Acuna should be able to sue her doctor, Sheldon Turkish, for wrongful death of her fetus. The case was one on a long list of matters the court said it would not take up as it started its new term.

Both lawyers in the case - John Zen Jackson, who represents Turkish, and Harold Cassidy, who represents Acuna - declined to comment.

Acuna, formerly of South Bound Brook, sued Turkish, who practices in Perth Amboy, claiming he did not give her enough information when he recommended she end her pregnancy in 1996 because it exacerbated a kidney disorder.

The wrongful-death portion of Acuna's lawsuit was dismissed by state courts, and Cassidy went to the U.S. Supreme Court seeking to have it reinstated. Today's denial ends that effort.

Acuna also contends she suffered emotional distress when she came to believe the abortion had killed a child. On Sept. 12, the New Jersey Supreme Court dismissed that claim as well, finding that a doctor does not have to tell a woman seeking an abortion that the procedure would kill a human being.

Last week, Cassidy asked the court to reconsider that ruling, and said if it won't, he'll again go to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Read more in Tuesday's Star-Ledger.

See more in News, Supreme Court

I believe McDonald's has to put "This beverage is HOT" on all their coffee cups for the same idiotic reason.

Laura,

I don't have HBO :/

Is it on video?

I believe McDonald's has to put "This beverage is HOT" on all their coffee cups for the same idiotic reason.

Posted by: JKeller at October 2, 2007 5:00 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While I was stripping out my jungle-like back yard, I had to sign a rental waiver stating that I would not put my limbs or head in the wood-chipper.
(I'll show THEM! I'll throw in nothing but my torso!)

Haha!

Supposedly you can't use your hairdryer in the bathtub, but they didn't say anything about the swimming pool.....

I have been following this story since it broke...not only from a pro-life standpoint, but also from a land development standpoint. My husband and I are both in the Land Surveying industry and our specialty is entitlements and zoning....I smelled a rat the moment the mayor "declared" PP broke no rules and could open today. If this was any other entity that had tried to pull this the city would have shut them down like a sledgehammer and probably ordered demo of the structure. Now, if the permit is allowed to stand after the filing of the appeal then the entire Planning Dept. should be sued ALONG with the "mayor" and each member of the city council....if I owned property within 250 feet of this facility I would have ALREADY filed suit. I understand how this process works and it is NOT ambigous...there is so much corruption here it makes me sick. The only reason this is unfolding like this is PP is greasing the wheels. There is NO OTHER WAY to get around zoning laws. I hope the mayor enjoys his bloodstained sports car/speed boat/Jamacain vacation/summer home that PP just bought him.
Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 1:02 PM

Hmmm. Fascinating analysis, and yet so wrong at the same time. My husband is also "in the Land Surveying industry", although he usually just calls himself a surveyor, and his firm actually did the layout for the PP Aurora facility. According to him, a person who actually did work on the project, PP followed all the rules.

Laura,

per:
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html

I agree that that is terrifying. How do we know it was "our side" that caused those injuries? I'm not saying we didn't, just honestly wondering? Isn't it possible that that is what we are over there trying to stop?

Hmmm. Fascinating analysis, and yet so wrong at the same time. My husband is also "in the Land Surveying industry", although he usually just calls himself a surveyor, and his firm actually did the layout for the PP Aurora facility. According to him, a person who actually did work on the project, PP followed all the rules.
Posted by: Carol at October 2, 2007 5:19 PMCarol,

Of course that is what your husband is going to say. His hands have been all over this mess. Why would we have any reason to believe what he is saying. Could it be that maybe he was lead to believe that the city had all of their bases covered.

Laura,

I don't have HBO :/

Is it on video?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yup, you can Netflix it. They also have "Soldiers in the Army of God."

What motive would her husband have to cover anything up? He works for an independent firm, not PP.

Laura,

Thank you for the post.

http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html

I agree that that is terrifying. How do we know it was "our side" that caused those injuries? I'm not saying we didn't, just honestly wondering? Isn't it possible that that is what we are over there trying to stop?

Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:25 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If this administration was even vaguely interested in stopping injustice and genocide we'd be in Darfur.

Silly Laura, there's no oil in Darfur..........

Laura,

I can't argue with you because after what happened in Rwanda, I have been sickened by our pick and choose approach to war.

I understand that there are terrorists out there, and that obviously we have to protect ourselves, but I do not understand how we could sit by and watch what happened in Rwanda.

I also want to point out that it is graphic pictures like these that drive home the horror of these wars.

Just like it is the graphic pictures of the mutilated unborn that drives home the horror of abortion.

One situation should not cancel the other out. If
we know about these atrocities, be they war or abortion, we must speak out and do all that we can to stop them.

I feel exactly the same things when I see "your" children as when I see "mine"...heartsick.

Of course that is what your husband is going to say. His hands have been all over this mess. Why would we have any reason to believe what he is saying. Could it be that maybe he was lead to believe that the city had all of their bases covered.

Posted by: Sandy at October 2, 2007 5:31 PM

Why should you have any reason to believe what he's saying? Because land surveying is professionally licensed by the state, and they have regulations that govern their behavior in a professional capacity. If they violate the regulations by which they are licensed, they get their licenses yanked. No license = no job.

If he had "smelled" anything funny, he would have had an obligation to do something, and he would have. But there wasn't anything "funny" about any of it, so he didn't have to do anything except his job.

Laura,

Don't get me started on conspiracy theories...I'm just crazy enough to buy into a few of them...

Depleted Uranium is a particular sore spot with me.

http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html

and once again, it's the pictures that best tell the tale.

Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:47 PM

One situation should not cancel the other out. If
we know about these atrocities, be they war or abortion, we must speak out and do all that we can to stop them.
I feel exactly the same things when I see "your" children as when I see "mine"...heartsick.

Then you're doing a lot of pretending. How can you compare the death of an embryo with the unimaginable pain and suffering of those poor victims of war?

Hmmm. Fascinating analysis, and yet so wrong at the same time. My husband is also "in the Land Surveying industry", although he usually just calls himself a surveyor, and his firm actually did the layout for the PP Aurora facility. According to him, a person who actually did work on the project, PP followed all the rules.
Posted by: Carol at October 2, 2007 5:19 PMCarol,

Carol, your sarcasm about my husband says a lot for you...perhaps I should have been more specific: My husband is a LICENSED LAND SURVEYOR who specializes in Zoning, Permitting and Entitlement processes...that means he's not a stick monkey with a lath bag, he's a suit and tie, legalese expert who knows the process better than most PLANNERS that work the counters. And "according to him" who did NOT process the permits, but is parroting what someone who worked on the project said, PP "followed all the rules"...newsflash: I don't care what muni you are in, withholding information/lying on your permit applications is dealt with VERY severely unless (obviously) you are PP. No, I'm not parrotting my husband, I am a project surveyor who has spent 6 years doing entitlements, zoning and developement permits, and title research and if I worked on a project where I'D been lied to by my client I certainly wouldn't be defending their tactics....and I would be distancing myself from them as quickly as possible least my reputation be associated with their tactics. It is clear to me that your husband's firm either employs people who themselves don't understand the process completely, or they are simply trying to save face. I guess repeating a he-said-she-said twice removed from you entitles you to be holier than me.

Libby,

How can you compare the death of an embryo with the unimaginable pain and suffering of those poor victims of war?

For the same reasons...
The graphic pictures speak volumes.
And I'm not the one pretending.
How can you compare the death of these tiny little human babies to blobs of cells? To me, these unborn children are victims of a different kind of war. One between mothers and their children.
But a war just the same.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/

Wow, someone is on their high horse.....

Maybe the "suits" should start valuing the "stick monkeys" a little more, lest they be stuck with the undesirable work....

Carol --

I take it you are proud that your husband had a hand in clinic.

In 1940, there were probably several proud surveyors who help construct some camps and furnaces.

Sleep well in your pride.

Of course that is what your husband is going to say. His hands have been all over this mess. Why would we have any reason to believe what he is saying. Could it be that maybe he was lead to believe that the city had all of their bases covered.

Posted by: Sandy at October 2, 2007 5:31 PM

Why should you have any reason to believe what he's saying? Because land surveying is professionally licensed by the state, and they have regulations that govern their behavior in a professional capacity. If they violate the regulations by which they are licensed, they get their licenses yanked. No license = no job.

If he had "smelled" anything funny, he would have had an obligation to do something, and he would have. But there wasn't anything "funny" about any of it, so he didn't have to do anything except his job.

Sandy--thanks for piping up! Carol's response could use a little professional clarification: Yes, the Land Surveying industry is state regulated and they can yank your license for un-professional conduct. These rules are mostly concerned with Surveyor negligance and fraud...ie "I'll pay you more to put my monument over THERE.." The fact that PP lied on their applications doesn't implicate the Engineering/Surveying firm because that firm can simply say "that's what they told us!" It is also possible that "G.O.D." simply did their own applications and did not submit them through the Engineering/Surveying firm, in which case the firm is not subject to any disciplinary action if fraud is found. As for anyone at their firm "smelling anything funny" I'd say the only thing they were smelling was the smell of money. In today's land development market a spendy client like PP isn't going to get too much scruitiny as long as the firm can keep it's hands clean with something akin to "don't ask, don't tell."

Wow, someone is on their high horse.....

Maybe the "suits" should start valuing the "stick monkeys" a little more, lest they be stuck with the undesirable work....

He spent MANY years paying his dues in the field my friend, and is no stranger to lath bags. Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions. My high horse is a direct result of a sarcastic slam on my husband.

"Carol --

I take it you are proud that your husband had a hand in clinic.

In 1940, there were probably several proud surveyors who help construct some camps and furnaces.

Sleep well in your pride"

Amen Betty.

Hey Library Betty,

During the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, there were probably several surveyors who helped the Catholic church erect some buildings with lots of bars and chains and platforms for proudly burning "heretics" at the stake. They strangled them first if they confessed...if not, they burned them alive.

Sleep well in your pride.

I've been thinking about this clinic building, it could make a nice Crisis Pregnancy Center. This would really help pregnant women and give them and their children the dignity they deserve....oh well, it's just a pipe dream I guess....
Posted by: jasper at October 2, 2007 1:58 PM

..................................
Why don't you simply run your CPCs out of your churches and save the overhead? You could provide some free day care with the savings.

have already put out word to buy the property which is that big field next to Aurora PP and build both an Adoption Agency and Crisis Pregnancy Center.

How many people do you know who would financially support this?

If we did this, we would probably drive Aurora PP out of business.

Mike
Posted by: Mike at October 2, 2007 2:15 PM
.............................

Cool! Make a mini mall. Men and women could still visit PP parenthood for the medical needs that they provide. When women get positive pregnancy results from PP and wish to remain pregnant they can toddle over to the CPC for a pat on the head and some free diapers or start negotiations over the price she'll get if she in fact delivers a live baby within the specifications of the adoptees.

Ray --

Times do change, that's true. Such historical cases are not something I am proud of. Reflection, confession and penance by many Catholics has and is going toward such historical calamities.

But at least a heretic got to plead their case and had a life. The Jews of the Holucast as well as the babies killed by PP and other organizations had no chance at living and were innocents. People did profit from their deaths.

The fact that people are proud to profit from the deaths of infants, whether by taking money from the desparate woman or but collecting a check from PP for services rendered makes no difference. Either way they had a direct part in the brutal killing.

I for one didn't burn a heretic in the Middle Ages and I don't take pride in that occurance. I am now standing up and protesting the current abomination that is taking place in my neighborhood. I will never profit from the death of innocents if there is EVER anything I can do to prevent it.

I myself was a desparate single woman, scared about an unplanned preganancy and had people pushing your choice on me. I chose life for my daughter who is a teenager now and my pride and joy. I am the proud aunt of 5 adopted nephews and nieces who were also unplanned or unexpected pregnancies. I take pride in the power of hope and the gifts given by God. Where this is life, there is hope.

Abortion, I realized 16 years ago is a very permanent solution to a temporary problem.

So Ray, what are you truly proud of, what have you done for real, innocent, persecuted life?
Yes, I hope both you and Carol reflect on the idea of pride and profit and wonder at the real costs involved.
Take heart, as long as you have life, you have hope and be sure that I will pray for you and others who are misguided on this issue.

think there is already something in the works for a crisis pregnancy center near there, it would be great if it was directly in front of PP!

If it were directly in front of PP, it would no doubt put PP out of business.
Posted by: Mike at October 2, 2007 3:02 PM

............................

How do you figure?

Sally,

Why don't you simply run your CPCs out of your churches and save the overhead? You could provide some free day care with the savings.

If I ran the world...

Sally- that actually sounds like a great idea. There'd be a lot of problems in terms of the finances on that, though, considering that churches aren't taxed and anyplace that provides medical services often has to charge exponentially to compensate for losses, and so on, and so forth.

"Mike, what would you say to the women who are just going in for a pap smear and walk into your "CPC" by mistake? "You are wicked for having a vagina! Wicked!"

News flash to Ignorant Ray from a vagina: Crisis Pregnancy centers offer all types of reproductive health services to women short of abortions and birth control. And guess what: PP is not the only place to get a discount Pap Smear...I got free one's at the County Health Clinic while a starving student for years. Get an education if you can't at least get a life.

To Mike: LOVE the idea....It would be the first geographic face off I'd ever heard of and I would bet a MILLION DOLLARS that PP's clinic would close in less than 2 years.
Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 3:38 PM
...................

I had no idea that CPCs provided STD screening and treatment, cancer screening etc. Are their doctors volunteers?
I would bet you that million and buy a Starbucks franchise close by for the fanatics that need coffee while they keep count, snap shot license plates, toss around catsup encrusted Betsy Wetsy dolls.........What a hoot!

Mike,

"I have already put out word to buy the property which is that big field next to Aurora PP and build both an Adoption Agency and Crisis Pregnancy Center."

"If we did this, we would probably drive Aurora PP out of business."

Actually you wouldn't. PP offers services other than abortion. Additionally, adoption is not a solution to an unwanted pregnancy. It is a solution to an unwanted child.

Mike
Posted by: Mike at October 2, 2007 2:15 PM

Library Betty,

"But at least a heretic got to plead their case and had a life. The Jews of the Holucast as well as the babies killed by PP and other organizations had no chance at living and were innocents. People did profit from their deaths."

That whole post was an amazingly articulate response to Ray...thoughtful and very well said. Being my first day on this blog, I can't help but notice that the sarcastic and hostile posts are from the "pro-choice" camp.

"Yes, I hope both you and Carol reflect on the idea of pride and profit and wonder at the real costs involved. "

Is is an accident or just coincidence that pride and profit can be abbreviated PP?

Bravo.

I have a root beer float.

It is glorious.

Hey Enigma --

Is PP going to offer Female Circumsion as an additional service?

That is the choice of many people around the world concerning their reproduction rights. It would be something that other providers and the Crisis Pregnancy folks probably won't offer and PP could turn a nice buck on it. After all they really want to get that demographic in the door -- you know the pre-teen minority girl.

I hope they consider it as a business plan. All their decisions are business ones -- no moral limits when it comes to women or children with PP. It could be part of that 90% of services that can be offered at a low cost.

In fact they could put up a banner to attract clients and be proud to offer such service to an underserved population.

Laura,

per:
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html

I agree that that is terrifying. How do we know it was "our side" that caused those injuries? I'm not saying we didn't, just honestly wondering? Isn't it possible that that is what we are over there trying to stop?
Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:25 PM
...................................

Within the first month of the invasion of Irag, a picture was shown in a BBC news article of a pregnant woman running towards a military road block. She was shot dead. Of course it wasn't ascertained until she was dead that she was probably running to them for help rather than a pretend pregnant woman with a crap load of explosives strapped to her abdomen.
I can imagine how frightened the young soldier was in a country where he didn't understand the culture or the language. I can imagine what he must have felt when he pulled the trigger and what he felt when he realized that he had just killed a pregnant woman for no good reason. Hopefully he felt remorse. But then soldiers are trained not to care about those they kill.

"I had no idea that CPCs provided STD screening and treatment, cancer screening etc. Are their doctors volunteers?
I would bet you that million and buy a Starbucks franchise close by for the fanatics that need coffee while they keep count, snap shot license plates, toss around catsup encrusted Betsy Wetsy dolls.........What a hoot!"

My point, Anonymous, is that PP is NOT the ONLY free or low cost option for female reproductive healthcare. You all run around chanting it like a mantra when there are thousands of women who get paps, std screenings, birth control, etc. all for little or no cost through the local County Healthcare system...I know because I did. Stop acting like PP is the only place on the planet where these things can be obtained.

Regarding your Starbucks rant: thank you for making my previous point.

Therese,

Welcome on your first day blogging on this site.
I sincerely hope that it won't be your last. New blood, from both sides, is always welcome.

And honestly, many of the pro choice crowd on here are awesome in spite of their one teeny, tiny, little, bitty, HUGE flaw. Most of them are very respectful and quite pleasant to talk with.

A few, like yourself, are new and haven't been "trained" properly (I'm kidding!)...

And trust me, our side has it's nasty side too.
Maybe not as often, and maybe not as nasty, but it's there.

Hmmm. Fascinating analysis, and yet so wrong at the same time. My husband is also "in the Land Surveying industry", although he usually just calls himself a surveyor, and his firm actually did the layout for the PP Aurora facility. According to him, a person who actually did work on the project, PP followed all the rules.
Posted by: Carol at October 2, 2007 5:19 PMCarol,

Of course that is what your husband is going to say. His hands have been all over this mess. Why would we have any reason to believe what he is saying. Could it be that maybe he was lead to believe that the city had all of their bases covered.
Posted by: Sandy at October 2, 2007 5:31 PM

.....................

Good grief Sandy. Land surveyors are not legal specialists. My daughter is a Civil Engineer. Her firm relied upon their lawyers to know the legalities for any specific location.

Laura,

I can't argue with you because after what happened in Rwanda, I have been sickened by our pick and choose approach to war.

I understand that there are terrorists out there, and that obviously we have to protect ourselves, but I do not understand how we could sit by and watch what happened in Rwanda.

I also want to point out that it is graphic pictures like these that drive home the horror of these wars.

Just like it is the graphic pictures of the mutilated unborn that drives home the horror of abortion.

One situation should not cancel the other out. If
we know about these atrocities, be they war or abortion, we must speak out and do all that we can to stop them.

I feel exactly the same things when I see "your" children as when I see "mine"...heartsick.
Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:47 PM

..................

That kinda sickens me mk. To compare an aborted embryo to a raped, murdered, starving to death 3 year old is sick. Imagine how many women are greatfull for miscarrying in these horrid places. Especially the products of inhuman rapists and murderers. Boo hooing over abortion sounds shallow to me.

*waves at Theresa* Like me. I am a good girl. Also pro-choice and an atheist. But I behave! Unless I'm having a bad day. But that happens to everyone, nu?

"Good grief Sandy. Land surveyors are not legal specialists. My daughter is a Civil Engineer. Her firm relied upon their lawyers to know the legalities for any specific location."

Sorry, Anonymous...you are a surveyor? Yes, Civil Engineers do rely on lawyers...guess who the lawyers rely on?

Answer: Surveyors...yes they are specialists in the law when it pertains to zoning, planning, setbacks, land use, etc. That's what surveyors do. They also spend a lot of time on the phone with lawyers explaining those laws to the lawyers. I have met very few land use/real estate lawyers who can understand the Subdivision Map Act without having their hand held by a surveyor.

No, we don't just stand on the side of the road and take pictures with our funny camera.

"Is PP going to offer Female Circumsion as an additional service? That is the choice of many people around the world concerning their reproduction rights."

Many women and young girls are forced to submit to this barbaric practice. Those who are not are deluded by a male patriarchy. Female circumcision provides no health benefits and exposes the woman/child involved to many risks, both from the procedure itself and later in life. It's only purpose is to ensure that women take no pleasure from sex and exist solely for the pleasure of men.

"I hope they consider it as a business plan. All their decisions are business ones -- no moral limits when it comes to women or children with PP."

It's a medical center. I cannot speak to the morality of the individual doctors because morality is something that each individual decides for herself. You do not define morality for the entire population.

Your analogy is crude, offensive, and based on nothing but speculation and misinformation. I would suggest that you read up on FGM before continuing to compare it with a woman's choice to have an abortion.

To mk and Erin:

Thanks for the warm welcome!

mk- speaking of the PL nasty side, did you ever hear from heather? I know she kind of flipped out, but I hope she's all right. I thought maybe some external stressors might have brought it on.

Hey Enigma,

Haven't you ever heard of demonstrating absurdity by being absurd?

Loosen up those chonies a little....

I feel exactly the same things when I see "your" children as when I see "mine"...heartsick.
Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:47 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MK-
1) I don't think that anything under 20 weeks gestation has the physical mechanisms required for suffering.
2) As often as I pimp this picture - and as terrible as this sounds - I wish this kid had never been born, and abortion would have been kinder (contraception better still..):
http://www.bike4sudan.com/files/images/wanting_a_meal.jpg

Theresa,

"Haven't you ever heard of demonstrating absurdity by being absurd?"

Of course. But there is no absurdity to demonstrate.

Laura,

Don't get me started on conspiracy theories...I'm just crazy enough to buy into a few of them...

Depleted Uranium is a particular sore spot with me.

http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html

and once again, it's the pictures that best tell the tale.
Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 5:50 PM
.......................

Do you think that Uranium poisoning is a conspiracy theory? I assure you it isn't. My ex mined uranium right here in -glow in the dark- New Mexico. It's a lot safer to mine it than have a weapon of destruction spew it all over the country side.
Those pictures remind me of the deformities attributed to acid rain and industrial waste upon the great lakes and the impact upon the peoples of the Midwest when I was a child.
mk, you are obviously a thoughtful and caring person. If you want abortion to go bye bye, you really need to address the issues that actually necessitate abortion. Lack of education, available and affordable BC, lack of real support for pregnant women, lack of real support for women with children, rape, domestic violence, incest, chemically damaged sperms and ovums due to harmful chemical exposure either self inflicted, governmentally inflicted or corporate inflicted......I can go on if you like.
If you have a really big problem with abortion you should have an even bigger problem with why women seek them and the people that refuse to fix the problems that precipitate them.

Laura,

While I hear what your saying, I wish that that poor child had never been placed in that situation. Abortion wouldn't solve the problem. It would just eliminate one more victim of it.

Wouldn't you rather get mad and attack the people that put that poor little fella in that place to begin with. I know I would.

So what's the real solution? Tell me. Like I wasn't depressed enough after yesterdays defeat! Sure, just pile on some more desparate souls. And I thought we were friends! :)

Laura,

http://www.bike4sudan.com/files/images/wanting_a_meal.jpg

Posted by: Laura at October 2, 2007 7:43 PM

That picture is so sad. I hope the photographer was able to help.

Situations like that remind me that the number one cause of death worldwide is starvation and the second is violence.

People are most likely to die because of the actions of their fellow human beings.

Love is the answer.

Anonymous,

As I said to Sally...if I ran the world.

Look, I'm just one person. I'm raising a large family. I volunteered for four years at a homeless shelter, and four more on an alzheimers floor at a senior home. (I'm not braggin' here, honestly, just saying that I'm trying!) My son came home with his girlfriend pregnant, and I'm helping to raise their two kids (with a smile on my face), I taught immigrant kids preschool for 12 years, fostered a child from Guatemala so she could have facial surgery and took in a kid from the inner city to get him out of a gang...

For whatever reason, the unborn has been my deepest calling. I can't save everyone. I shouldn't have to. But if everyone did something, whatever their called to do, then there surely would be enough compassion to go around. I don't neglect everyone except the unborn...but I'm just one person.

(And when I said conspiracy theory, I meant that we aren't being told about the atrocities that are government is using in the name of peace. Depleted Uranium is awful! And most people have never heard of it, let alone realize that we are using it all over the world...)

Rotten teenager needs the computer for homework...
what is the world coming to?

Good night all.

Peace.

I really just wanted to share a story about rising STD rates.

The article includes some info about a young man "Anthony" who although he took sex ed classes and was screened for STDs, persisted in risky behavior until he found himself HIV positive. The article tried to end on a positive note by saying he is now trying to use condoms.

Other gems from the article include comments about teens not feeling comfortable telling a partner to use a condom because they don't know their partner well enough.

It is almost surreal. It is out of St. Louis.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/sciencemedicine/story/45E2CAE8329750EF8625734F000CBBB2?OpenDocument

So a "pro-choice" person sees a picture of a person suffering and thinks, "That person would be better off dead." A pro-life person sees a picture of a person suffering and thinks, "How can we help that person live a better life?" This would seem to be one of the fundamental differences between the two groups.

"I had no idea that CPCs provided STD screening and treatment, cancer screening etc. Are their doctors volunteers?
I would bet you that million and buy a Starbucks franchise close by for the fanatics that need coffee while they keep count, snap shot license plates, toss around catsup encrusted Betsy Wetsy dolls.........What a hoot!"

My point, Anonymous, is that PP is NOT the ONLY free or low cost option for female reproductive healthcare. You all run around chanting it like a mantra when there are thousands of women who get paps, std screenings, birth control, etc. all for little or no cost through the local County Healthcare system...I know because I did. Stop acting like PP is the only place on the planet where these things can be obtained.

Regarding your Starbucks rant: thank you for making my previous point.
Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 7:15 PM
................
Starbucks 'rant'? Where did I rant about Starbucks? I mentioned the name of a business. And you have made no point of any kind of rational nature.

Hi Laura.

"I don't think that anything under 20 weeks gestation has the physical mechanisms required for suffering."

Funny you should mention this. I just read an article in the National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly about 2 hours ago that referenced a paper from the British Medical journal that talked about this. From my paper

"According to the British Medical Journal, the neuro-anatomical structures that are needed in order to "feel" pain, i.e. the thalamus and the motor nerves that send a message to the base of the brain, are present in the fetus by the eighth week of pregnancy."

He references
H.B. Valman and J.F. Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Medical Journal (January 26 1980)

Of course, he also goes on to say that it is debated whether or not the fetus ACTUALLY DOES feel the pain, but it looks like there is no debate on whether or not the fetus has the needed structures to feel pain. Pretty interesting stuff. God love you, Laura.

"Good grief Sandy. Land surveyors are not legal specialists. My daughter is a Civil Engineer. Her firm relied upon their lawyers to know the legalities for any specific location."

Sorry, Anonymous...you are a surveyor? Yes, Civil Engineers do rely on lawyers...guess who the lawyers rely on?

Answer: Surveyors...yes they are specialists in the law when it pertains to zoning, planning, setbacks, land use, etc. That's what surveyors do. They also spend a lot of time on the phone with lawyers explaining those laws to the lawyers. I have met very few land use/real estate lawyers who can understand the Subdivision Map Act without having their hand held by a surveyor.

No, we don't just stand on the side of the road and take pictures with our funny camera.
Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 7:34 PM

............................
Reading for comprehension is obviously not your forte. Along with pretending that surveyors understand law.
I think that it is totally groovy that you have found a calling but that doesn't make you an expert in construction let alone zoning legal crap over such construction. Hearsay is just that.

Sally,

Why don't you simply run your CPCs out of your churches and save the overhead? You could provide some free day care with the savings.

If I ran the world...
Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 6:55 PM]
...........................

What would you do mk?

"Reading for comprehension is obviously not your forte. Along with pretending that surveyors understand law.
I think that it is totally groovy that you have found a calling but that doesn't make you an expert in construction let alone zoning legal crap over such construction. Hearsay is just that."

Come again?? If you're going to rant, would you at least try to make it an intelligible one? If you'd like to discuss the fine points of zoning law let's discuss....I'm armed with professional industry knowledge on the subject. You, apparently are only armed with mud.

Sandy--thanks for piping up! Carol's response could use a little professional clarification: Yes, the Land Surveying industry is state regulated and they can yank your license for un-professional conduct. These rules are mostly concerned with Surveyor negligance and fraud...ie "I'll pay you more to put my monument over THERE.." The fact that PP lied on their applications doesn't implicate the Engineering/Surveying firm because that firm can simply say "that's what they told us!" It is also possible that "G.O.D." simply did their own applications and did not submit them through the Engineering/Surveying firm, in which case the firm is not subject to any disciplinary action if fraud is found. As for anyone at their firm "smelling anything funny" I'd say the only thing they were smelling was the smell of money. In today's land development market a spendy client like PP isn't going to get too much scruitiny as long as the firm can keep it's hands clean with something akin to "don't ask, don't tell."

Posted by: Theresa at October 2, 2007 6:16 PM

Theresa,

My this certainly has gotten contentious. I would like to apologize to you for what you saw as an insult. Yes, I am a somewhat sarcastic person, but I honestly just thought your turn of phrase was funny. I've never heard anyone refer to it as the "Land Surveying industry" before, much less put it in caps, and it struck my funny bone.

My husband is also a licensed professional who worked his way up from a field crew to a principal. And for whomever else it was who ripped into me for my "pride" in him, yep, you sure got that right. He kicks butt. He works for a highly reputable firm that he's now a major player in, and I'm pretty darn proud and completely unashamed of it.

But back to the topic of PP's alleged deception. My husband's firm did all of the layout for the building as well as the work for the occupancy permit. PP is in an area zoned for medical use, and that is the purpose for which the development sought permits, and that is the purpose for which it will be used. There is no zoning violation, much less any permitting violations, and you have three separate reports from area attorneys along with the conclusion of the SA to bear that out.

By the way, to "anonymous"....you would be surprised at how much surveyors know about property law that applies to their particular area of expertise.

So a "pro-choice" person sees a picture of a person suffering and thinks, "That person would be better off dead." A pro-life person sees a picture of a person suffering and thinks, "How can we help that person live a better life?" This would seem to be one of the fundamental differences between the two groups.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at October 2, 2007 8:20 PM

Nonsense. Anyone can think it would have been better had a starving child not been born while at the same time wanting desperately to help the unfortunate youngster live a better life. Pro-life, on the other hand, just wants every fertilized egg to be gestated no matter what the living conditions are for the pregnant woman. A large number of pro-lifers want poor, starving women to be denied contraception, punished, guilted, harassed, and/or demonized for seeking abortions under even the most horrible circumstances.

maybe John L. has hit upon something or perhaps he missed entirely,

I've re-read many of the posts here and like MK, I too am saddened and don't quite know where to go next! So maybe, I'll give out a little understanding of the kind of life humans are called to embrace.

One of the oldest stories in the Bible is the story of Cain and Able. Cain kills (his brother) Abel. [This story has always be very poignant for me, because I have 4 brothers ,, 2 older and 2 younger.] God asks Cain (after this event): 'Cain, where is Able?' Cain's reply: 'Am I my brother's keeper?'

It would be very easy to just point fingers about who are the perpetrators and who are the victims. [it becomes even harder to bear when you allow 'others' to be so distant that you can call other folks - 'them'.

This is where MK is. She sees us as family ... brothers/sisters all. Laura's kid (starving to death) is a little son/brother, as is Laura herself. She is that kid's sister and so are the rest of us .... and, we let our little brother die ... of starvation! We are so proficient in saying (like Cain) 'Am I my brother's keeper?' Now, through the magic of PP our brothers/sisters now called fetuses/products-of-conception/non-sentient-beings (to placate our cruelty) will be cut up and some will be put through a garbage disposal >>> 'Am I my brother's keeper?'

Such is bad enough ... but Jesus issued in an even closer tie ... He stated many times a bond of union so tight He said things like 'whatsoever yo do to the least of these, you do to me.' and 'I pray for them Father, that they might be one
as you and I are one.' As Jesus is on His Cross, He is the little starving kid in Sudan + also all the victims of mayhem .... I am too, and so is Laura, and so are we all ... >>> 'Am I my brother's keeper?'

Jesus, says 'yes' and even more 'you ARE your brother' - that's tight.

[little aside - a person in the Cartesian box cannot experience this-pain//this-gift. The 'box' is a safe place to judge the world, not embrace the world.]

How can you compare the death of an embryo with the unimaginable pain and suffering of those poor victims of war? -- Libby

For the same reasons...
The graphic pictures speak volumes.
And I'm not the one pretending.
How can you compare the death of these tiny little human babies to blobs of cells? To me, these unborn children are victims of a different kind of war. One between mothers and their children.
But a war just the same.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/

Posted by: mk at October 2, 2007 6:00 PM

You're pretending if you think banning abortion will magically make the problem of unintended pregnancy and abortion go away. Banning elective abortion won't change the circumstances under which women choose to abort. It won't make life any better for poor, minority young women, which is the group who aborts at 4 times the rate of any other group. Making the abortion procedure illegal might make you feel better, but it won't make it go away.

Libby-

Check out Femenists for Life. We have the same line of thinking. Abortion is a sign that society is not meeting women's needs. Women deserve better than abortion! Women should not have to choose between a career and a child. Making abortion illegal is more than just a law for us, its a holistic change.

Bears repeating:

"Humanity was, for the most part, a matter of personal opinion. But I suppose its acceptable for humanity to be in the eye of the beholder, right?"

Carder: Depends on who you ask, Mary. Doug for example, will wholeheartedly agree with you. The baby/fetus/ organism DOES NOT matter. It's all about mom, will only be about mom, who cares about about anybody/anything else. End of discussion.

Once again, we see the most willful desire to avoid the truth, and the weak attempt to attack the truthful side with straw man arguments.

No, Carder, it is not that the unborn "do not matter." Those are you words, not the words of the Pro-Choice side.

They may matter a great deal. They may matter a massive, enormous, amount. It is up to the woman who is pregnant, and/or the couple who would be the parents.

"Humanity" means different things. To some extent the unborn qualify, and to other extents they do not. No, Carder, it is not necessarily only about Mom - most Pro-Choicers are okay with the restrictions per the Roe decision.

Doug

Libby-

Check out Femenists for Life. We have the same line of thinking. Abortion is a sign that society is not meeting women's needs. Women deserve better than abortion! Women should not have to choose between a career and a child. Making abortion illegal is more than just a law for us, its a holistic change.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 3, 2007 12:08 AM

I'm familiar with FFL. Contrary to what the website says, making abortion illegal only serves to punish women.

Jill, thank you for existing and doing what you do. That's all.

anonymous,

A large number of pro-lifers want poor, starving women to be denied contraception, punished, guilted, harassed, and/or demonized for seeking abortions

No, we want them to be fed, clothed, safe and free so that all of their children will be born into a place where they don't have to worry about starving or being killed.

We DO NOT want them to feel guilty, which is why we DO NOT want them to kill their children. Death is not an answer to life's problems. And as for harassing, that would be a little difficult since the only other countries I have ever been to are Ireland and Canada. Hard to harass someone from 3,000 miles away!

Libby,

You're pretending if you think banning abortion will magically make the problem of unintended pregnancy and abortion go away.

No one here EVER claimed that banning abortion would magically make unintended pregnancy go away. Only the parties involved in illicit sexual relations have that kind of control.

Abortion would simply make the legalized murder of 15 million babies go away. No more, no less.

Libby,

You're pretending if you think banning abortion will magically make the problem of unintended pregnancy and abortion go away.

You mean, just like you're pretending, that bringing abortion to these countries will suddenly make poverty and destitution go away.

Abortion is not the answer. To any question. Ever.

Only the parties involved in illicit sexual relations have that kind of control.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh yeah.
Married people never have abortions.

John McDonell,

but Jesus issued in an even closer tie ... He stated many times a bond of union so tight He said things like 'whatsoever yo do to the least of these, you do to me.' and 'I pray for them Father, that they might be one

I don't think I tell you often enough, just how much I love you!

The fact that there are children in the world like the little boy in the picture Laura posted, says more about me than it does about him.

You are so right John! We ARE family. And my brothers and sisters are in trouble. The poor will always be with us. We will never eliminate poverty. BUT...this is a chance for us to practice charity and be Christ to the world. If we feed that little guy, he will be replaced by another little guy...true...but in the eternal picture, eventually we will all end up in the same state...and when asked what we did to alleviate his suffering, I want to be able to say "Everything in my power" and not "I eliminated him". This life we have been given is a spiritual test. We will all suffer and we will all die. We cannot change God's will, but we can cooperate with it. He watches, and suffers when He sees the wee ones living like our boy, but he suffers more when He watches us ignore him. Or worse yet, desire that he go away by killing him.

Wouldn't decency dictate that we treat the creation of life with the utmost respect? Doesn't looking at that little boy make you cherish life all the more? Don't images like that make you ashamed to use sex purely for personal pleasure instead of treating it with the dignity it deserves. Reverting to animalism is what brings about hunger and unwanted children, war and poverty. Human beings, unlike beasts, have the power to control their urges, whether it is raping a woman simply because you are a man in a country where women are considered less than human, or rutting here in the US because it "feels good"...

We are all responsible for the life we create, and when life is created irresponsibly, then we are responsible for the life that others create. We are family. And family takes care of it's own. Or at least it should.

Instead of pointing fingers at each other, and trying to make the "bad feelings" go away, we must ask ourselves "What am I doing to make things better?"

Laura,

If a married couple is having sex without being open to life, then in my mind they too are having illicit sex. Sex without openness to life, ceases to be a life affirming act of sharing and becomes a selfish act of self-pleasuring. Which is irresponsible whether you are married or not.

Doug,

"They may matter a great deal. They may matter a massive, enormous, amount. It is up to the woman who is pregnant, and/or the couple who would be the parents."

You've proven my point. At the end of the day, it boils down to the wishes/desires of the pregnant woman. It MAY matter a great deal, it COULD matter a massive, enormous amount.

But if she says, "Nope", then it's time for us to back off and let her exercise her choice. In fact, Pro-choice SUPPORTS that choice. It's not for us to make the decision for her.

Once the switch is flipped and the contents of her uterus emptied, one can only stare at the remains and say with whatever emotion the wind blows that day, "IT didn't matter."

The Down's baby that Jill comforted didn't matter.

Neither did the 4,000 terminated organisms from yesterday didn't matter.

And the 4,000 non-sentient, pain-free blobs that will be terminated today won't matter.

To repeat your valuation:"It is up to the woman who is pregnant..."

And that's all that matters.

Doug,

" most Pro-Choicers are okay with the restrictions per the Roe decision."

Doug

Posted by: Doug at October 3, 2007 12:14 AM

What restrictions, specifically are they okay with?

It seems to me that every restriction has been fought and that none of the restrictions in the Roe decision are meaningful, partly because of the Doe vs. Bolton case.

Do you know of any restriction that Planned Parenthood, NAF or NARAL have supported?

where's my buddie Heather?

Anonymous wrote,

"A large number of pro-lifers want poor, starving women to be denied contraception, punished, guilted, harassed, and/or demonized for seeking abortions under even the most horrible circumstances."

Posted by: Anonymous at October 2, 2007 10:24 PM

If you look worldwide, access to abortion is widespread among the most affluent nations, who were affluent before they legalized abortion. If there are fewer poor, the rich don't need to feel guilted or demonized for not sharing with them.

The people of the world's most desperately poor countries cry out for food, safety and justice, not for abortion. It is the outside agencies who come in and see abortion as a way to reduce the number of poor and their burden on the rest of us. I think this is misguided, at least. When offered abortion, do they take it? Sure, because their needs haven't been met, because they aren't offered what they need. They also drink polluted water because it is all they have.

Laura,

If a married couple is having sex without being open to life, then in my mind they too are having illicit sex. Sex without openness to life, ceases to be a life affirming act of sharing and becomes a selfish act of self-pleasuring. Which is irresponsible whether you are married or not.

Posted by: mk at October 3, 2007 6:30 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MK, I am going to be 45 in November.
I've been sexually active since the age of 21, had my tubes tied at 23, and am with the third sexual partner I've had in my entire life. We will have been together 10 years next 4th of July. (The shortest sexual relationship I ever had was almost 7 years)
I think branding my behavior as "illicit" or "irresponsible" would be a little harsh, even though none of my sexual activity ever involved marriage or reproduction. (I did the 80's in a big way, but any of my girlfiends would have referred to three sexual partners as "a weekend in Cancun" - not a lifelong sexual history...)

Laura,

Then I guess I wasn't talking about you. Obviously if you're tubes were tied, then the possibility of bringing an "unwanted" child into the world was eliminated.

I would still call your relationships illicit, but that would be coming from a strictly Catholic point of view. Ideally, from where I sit, all marriage would be treated as sacred and a sacrament.

But coming from a secular point of view, your sexual history, while "illicit", would not fall under the "irresponsible" heading. Good work.

Surely, tho, you know what I'm talking about. Since you have never set foot in an abortion clinic, you don't qualify as someone that is willing to "eliminate" the result of your sexual relationships. But many, many, many women are.

To me, even from a secular standpoint, these women are acting irresponsibly. If you can't stand the heat, you get out of the kitchen. You don't demolish it.

If you can't accept the natural consequences of your actions, then stop practicing the behavior. Don't kill the results.

I'm sure the same thing applies in your line of work. If you can't take care of a puppy, don't get one. Getting one and then killing it would be nuts! Think before you act. Can you afford to feed it? Will you take it for walks? Will you get it vaccinated? If not, then stay out of the pet store! (Actually, stay out of the pet store if you want a puppy to begin with, but that's a whole other debate).

Laura,

I no longer entertain the idea of astrology, but if I did, I'd find it curious that both of us are Scorpios...

Hippie,

Sure, because their needs haven't been met, because they aren't offered what they need. They also drink polluted water because it is all they have.

Excellent points!!!!!

Laura,

Maybe you have some insight into the availability of female sterilization for the under 25 crowd.

I have heard some say it is hard to get.

What have you heard?

I have heard some say it is hard to get.

What have you heard?

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 7:40 AM

I'm curious too hippie. I have a 26 year old neighbor that just had her second child and wanted her tubes tied. The doctor refused because of her age. She said that it was common practice to wait until after 30. It could have changed since Laura had it done.

Laura,

In Catholicism, we believe that God has given us many gifts which are meant to be enjoyed. However, in our sinfulness, we often abuse these gifts and turn them in something that they were never meant to be.

There are seven sins, called the seven deadly sins, that are so grave, and pervert their opposites, the seven holy virtues, to such a degree that they warrant condemnation to hell.

We are given good things to eat. We are meant to enjoy them. We should not feel guilty because we have good food to eat.

However, when this gift is perverted, we have the deadly sin of gluttony, or over indulgence.

It's polar opposite, the holy virtue of temperance, is the self control it takes to monitor our intake of these gifts and avoid their abuse.

When it comes to sex, we were given one of the most beautiful gifts that God had to give. The opportunity to unite with one another on the spiritual as well as physical plane and to culminate this union with the opportunity to share in God's creative powers, by producing new life.

But like all of His gifts, Chastity too, has become perverted. Of course we are supposed to find pleasure in the sexual act. We are supposed to find pleasure in all of His gifts. But when we seek that pleasure without accepting the act of creation that goes with it, we pervert it and make it something it was not meant to be.

Sex is good. Sex for the wrong reasons? Not so good...

"Lust (Latin, luxuria)
*
Lust is usually thought of as involving obsessive or excessive thoughts or desires of a sexual nature. Unfulfilled lusts sometimes lead to sexual or sociological compulsions and/or transgressions including (but obviously not limited to) sexual addiction, adultery, bestiality, and rape.
*
Dante's criterion was "excessive love of others," which therefore rendered love and devotion to God as secondary. However, lust and love are two different things; while a genuine, selfless love can represent the highest degree of development and feeling of community with others in a human relationship, Lust can be described as the excessive desire for sexual release. The other person can be therefore seen as a "means to an end" for the fulfillment of the subject's desires, and becomes thus objectified in the process. In Purgatorio, the penitent walks within flames to purge himself of lustful/sexual thoughts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

I had my tubes tied in 85.
I had to get a court-ordered waiver stating that I wouldn't litigate if I changed my mind later. (I notice that they don't make you get one in order to have a child...)
I had to obtain and pay for a psych. evaluation.
I had to pay court costs and pay for the procedure.
I had the judge ask me if I had discussed my plans with my boyfriend and my father(!?)

Nothing has changed except for the fact that the society has become even MORE litigious, and now it's even HARDER to get a tubal or a vasectomy if you're under 35 or have fewer than three children.

I personally believe that if you're over 18 and know what you want, then it should be a personal choice.
Heck, you can get a tattoo, a piercing, new boobs, or even a BABY at that age, you should be able to get something like a tubal!
(I think it's a little silly that I was issued a shotgun in my line of work at that time, but I was apparently too stupid to own and operate my own uterus without supervision...)

hippie

Right on! Exactly my point.

Anonymous-

We simply disagree on this point. I think abortion exploits women because it is promoted as a solution to all of your problems. Killing your child is never a solution. Women should not feel like they have to have an abortion. The answer is meeting the needs of pregnant women and women with children. Killing is never the answer.

The answer is meeting the needs of pregnant women and women with children.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Great, but what are you going to do for women who no longer wish to be pregnant nor have children?
I've known plenty of affluent, educated women who have had abortions.

Laura,

I agree. It's weird that they are so adament about that. If a woman truly wants it, that is her choice. We can avoid more abortions if such procedures were more available, I think.

mk,

Even people who use contraception and sterilization can be open to life.

Many of my friends have children due to contraceptive failure. They love and cherish these children and figure that is what was meant to be.

Remember also the lady who was over 50 and had her tubes tied years before, yet went on to unexpectedly have twins. She was open to life, despite being sterilized.

I don't want you to think I am arguing against your personal religious beliefs because I am not. That is personal.

I just want to point out that many contraceptive users are open to life. Some may even be using contraceptives for the most selfish, irresponsible, and illicit reasons (such as prostitution), yet accept pregnancy and love their children.

PIP,

"Women deserve better than abortion! "

I agree. But I also believe that outlawing abortion is not the way to go.

Hippie,

I second MK on your excellent post. We wealthy nations, when dealing with poor nations, always assume WE know what's best for THEM. Talk about patronizing. Do we ever think to ask these people what they think is best for them? In fact, some of the methods of birth control that we so caringly push on them might be dangerous for the ignorant, malnourished, anemic woman who's only access to medical help is a day long ride on a donkey to some dilapidated "clinic".
As you say, we don't address the real problems of poverty, inequality, abuse, disease, or ignorance. We also do not take into consideration the cultural and religous differences of people in poorer nations, people who, unlike us, do not see children as the problem and in fact greatly cherish children.
I remember reading what one poor woman said. That if you take her children away, you will not cure her poverty, she will still be desperately poor. Her children are her only joy.

I agree. It's weird that they are so adament about that. If a woman truly wants it, that is her choice. We can avoid more abortions if such procedures were more available, I think.

Posted by: prettyinpink at October 3, 2007 8:35
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've always thought the argument was pretty lame myself.
I've never heard anyone ask a pregnant women "what if you change your mind in ten years and don't want it anymore?"
It's doubly puzzling now that the technology has improved. I had my tubes tied because the women in my family are as fertile as wharf rats. I bet I could have successful IVF if I so chose, and strangely, my insurance would cover it.

Laura,

I totally agree with birth control, and tube tying and what have you. I think that preventing pregnancy in the first place is a big part of it.

John,

"I've re-read many of the posts here and like MK, I too am saddened and don't quite know where to go next! So maybe, I'll give out a little understanding of the kind of life humans are called to embrace."

How are you so certain that humans are called to do anything? What makes your interpretation of life or 'higher' life more correct than someone else's?

In fact, some of the methods of birth control that we so caringly push on them might be dangerous for the ignorant, malnourished, anemic woman who's only access to medical help is a day long ride on a donkey to some dilapidated "clinic".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yikes!
Would you have that woman carry a full-term pregnancy and go through labor and delivery?
How about we let her decide.
(Frankly, I don't know how these women watch their kids starve one after another. ONCE would be too much for me.)

"I've never heard anyone ask a pregnant women "what if you change your mind in ten years and don't want it anymore?""

Haha, exactly. Now that we have more technology and it is safer, readily available, etc. there really is no reason why not.

Good grief Sandy. Land surveyors are not legal specialists. My daughter is a Civil Engineer. Her firm relied upon their lawyers to know the legalities for any specific location.

Posted by: Anonymous at October 2, 2007 7:20 PM

That was my point.

Laura,

That is a rough situation. I do think we should focus on humanitarian efforts though, and not abortion. If this means distributing birth control, go for it.

MK,

"Sex without openness to life, ceases to be a life affirming act of sharing and becomes a selfish act of self-pleasuring. Which is irresponsible whether you are married or not."

Sex is not an illicit act if the individuals involved are not "open to life." There's absolutely nothing wrong with having sex for purposes other than procreation. Heck, if the only purpose of sex was procreation, humans would never have sex except when the woman happened to be fertile (approximately 4 days out of a 28 day cycle.)

Simply because someone sees something differently than you do does not mean that he/she is wrong.

Do you REALLY want to be that woman?

If my neighbors are killing babies, then hell yeah, I want to be that woman.

Laura,

What you went through is atrocious, and an absolute affront to women's rights and dignity. I have to say how disgusted I am at the paternalistic attitude of the legal and medical profession. This truly is an undue burden and prevents at least some women from exercising their reproductive rights. If they want sterilization instead of some other method, there shouldn't be a group of men (or women) standing in their way.

Why do they act like anyone who wants to make this choice is an idiot? You sign a consent form for every medical procedure, this should be no different.

Even if one changes her mind, it was her choice. She can still adopt or perhaps get a reversal or IVF etc.

Bravo to you for standing up for yourself.
And shame on them for standing in your way.

Laura,

How about we do something to truly improve her life situation so that she doesn't watch a child starve? We replace dangerous pregnancy and childbirth with dangerous methods of birth control? How kind of us. Let her decide? Sure, let's ask her what we can do to truly improve her life instead of assuming that WE know what's best for HER.
Also Laura, its been shown that where the standard of living improves, the birth rate stabilizes, even declines. Women are inclined to have fewer children when they do not have to worry about losing children to disease and starvation. This comes with improved standard of living.

Laura,

you wrote

"(Frankly, I don't know how these women watch their kids starve one after another. ONCE would be too much for me.)

Posted by: Laura at October 3, 2007 8:46 AM

So true and so tragic. Unlike those of us in the west, many of these women, however have practically no choice in refusing sexual activity. They are controlled from birth to death by men.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having sex for purposes other than procreation.

If you're not manipulating the sex specificly to avoid procreation. If you are, you are perverting the act. Many couples have sex not to concieve, but to enjoy eachother- but they are open to conception if it occurs (and they don't break their bodies or use devices to take what they want from sex while denying God the opportunity to bring about what He wants from sex).

You're right about the limited fertility window. This is because God intended for spouses to have sex for love, bonding, fun, and physical pleasure-not just the procreation (although the creation of human life is His most prized achievement). But when you say, "No, 28 days is not enough! I must have 30 days of non-procreative sex. So in yo' face, God!" I hear a child say, "More! I want more. If I don't have more I'll just DIE!"

Then again, what I'm saying only makes sense if you are a God-loving Christian. If you support the slaughter of the unborn, I don't expect you to care about offending God in lesser ways.

"....a red pickup truck that was outfitted with signs on both sides and the back of your truck with the most horrific dead baby photos