Aurora Beacon:

"Planned Parenthood representatives signed a letter Monday afternoon agreeing... they would only perform first-trimester and early second-trimester abortions...."

Later we will find that this is not true and they will say they had to say it to avoid attack from angry protesters.

"All a government can do is try to treat people fairly, which I believe we have," Weisner said.

Weisner's comment sounds like a basic misunderstanding of his role as an executive in public service.

He thinks he has treated people fairly by listening patiently.

His actual role as an executive is to enforce the rules by which the people of Aurora have consented to be governed.

When his collective boss tells him to comply with the community's rules and he declines, he is failing in his duty to them.

It's kind of ironic that PP facilities are built in neighborhoods where the populations are minorities. It makes me sick.

Why don't they take their $7 million dollar facility and put it in the upscale neighborhoods where all the rich people live.

Since they are rich they can afford their service, why put it where there is poverty?

Oh wait, yes I know...to kill someone's child who believes PP is the only way to turn since they pass out literature stating abortion IS the answer and since your poor it's OK to abort.

I hope PP doesn't stay open for long.

Oh no... It's not true...

Although the coverage seems to be fairly balanced, I did notice a few things. The Fox report from the PP driveway doesn't show the LONG line of people down the street, almost completely the length of the street. I arrived as they were finishing taping and there was a line at least halfway down the block, and there were more people arriving. It wasn't a handful, it was several hundred.

I believe PLAL has a case in regards to the Special Use permit, and it will be interesting to see what happens when this moves into court, which is probably where this belongs anyway.

I can't believe the city's ordinances allow someone like PP to just move in without any public hearings. This is a total fiasco, and I would support any Aurora residents who want to recall this mayor.

Anna,
I clicked on your name. You have a Polish pro-life blog?

In my town, you can't even change your roofline or remodel a garage without going to the city planning commission and then going to the city council for approval. When we proposed an addition to our home we had to take the same measures. Every household within 300 feet of our home had to be notified of our intentions and were invited to review the plans and attend the planning commission meeting and give their input on our project.

How could this happen in Aurora?? I still say dirty politics played a role. What goes around comes around and if I were Mayor Weisner, I would be very very fearful of my future.

"All a government can do is try to treat people fairly, which I believe we have," Weisner said.

I would argue he blatently did the exact opposite.

Planned Parenthood representatives signed a letter Monday afternoon agreeing... they would only perform first-trimester and early second-trimester abortions....

Gee how thoughtful.

I suspect that one good reason Planned Parenthood would build in poorer neighborhoods is because they offer so many health benefits to women who are uninsured and can't afford health care.

When I was uninsured and about to get married, it was Planned Parenthood that allowed me to get an exam provided me with inexpensive birth control. I couldn't afford a $300 doctor visit at the only other place in town, and Planned Parenthood definitely helped me a lot.

Sandy,

Tell me about it. I had to videotape the men pouring concrete for the few extra feet of addition to our home for the benefit of city inspectors, who just couldn't get to our house that day. The workers thought it was a real hoot.
We were also told we couldn't build a combination shed/playhouse for our children on OUR property because of zoning laws. We live on 2.5 acres in a rural area! The people next door to us could because they were zoned differently.

Liz, you do realize that it wasn't PP who helped you but the taxpayers. PP takes millions of dollars from the gov't every year to subsidize those cheaper services, which is a scam because they're just trolling for abortion clients.

Since I subsidized your cheap healthcare, you're welcome.

Yep, I'm aware of how PP works. So on that note, thanks for your help.

Lynn,

As I recall, when medicaid funding of abortion was cut off, we heard how once "government funded" abortion was cut off, the "taxpayer" would be paying millions more in benefits for more poor children who would be born.

There's a local pro-life medical clinic in my town with medical staff that offers $10 Paps and STD testing, etc. What is with this bizarre myth that PP is some benevolent non-profit who "helps" poor women? They are subsidized - they are doing nothing more cheaply.

The next battle is to take these tax dollars away and give them to public health departments and other benign medical entities that truly care about women's health.

Since I subsidized your cheap healthcare, you're welcome.

Posted by: Lynn at October 2, 2007 10:10 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow.
Do you tell returning veterans to thank you for their food, clothing and shelter because you're a taxpayer? Maybe you should go to Walter Reed and have the boys bow and kiss your ring...

Hi Mary!
It is so interesting that you can't even put up a shed/playhouse in your back yard, but this killing mill can be built in a city so far under the under the radar.

Our town also wants to renovate an old 1070's type mall using the same land it sits on and it has been in debate with the city for I'm guessing about 4-5 years. It would be a definite improvement to the downtown area, but the city and developers have proceeded very cautiously to ensure the site is built appropriately to the city regulations and will be welcomed by all of the hard working tax paying citizens. If our Mayor had given a blank check approval for this project, he would have never seen his office again.

I agree the Mayor of Aurora sold his soul to PP and got paid hansomely for his decision.

and to sandy
No one got "paid" out of pocket, know why I know. BECAUSE ABORTION IS NOT ILLEGAL YET, and never will be. you need to have a little more then your religion to back up why it is wrong.
health care for ALL WOMEN is not wrong

and to the one who said that Planned Parenthood is only placed in lower economic places.... NO SHIT. it is a HEALTH CARE CLINIC. people in the upper middle class do not need to worry about finding a doctor, oh and AURORA IS HUGE. in both economic stances and education. The west side is upper middle class, same with north aurora, what about the far east side... you know, BY NAPERVILLE? that is a little higher class then Carol Stream and Winfield, and Wheaton.

HERE IS SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT
Higher the socio economic standing, the HIGHER THE STD RATE
the HIGHER THE DATE RAPE
THE HIGHER THE PRE-MARRIAGE SEX RATE
the YOUNGER kids and teens ARE HAVING SEX.
sick and twisted world

America also has the highest suicide rate of all the developed nations
America also has the lowest education rate of all the developed nations
AMERICA ALSO HAS THE HIGHEST MURDER RATE OF ALL THE DEVELOPED NATIONS.

your worried about ABORTIONS?
shit, I knew 8 kids who committed suicide last year
3 kids who overdosed on drugs
20 who joined the military(I can call that suicide right about now, they stated the only reason why they joined is so they can die) start worrying about those who are alive before the ones who are not breathing yet.

"shit, I knew 8 kids who committed suicide last year
3 kids who overdosed on drugs
20 who joined the military"

Hey Amanada, I knew 1.3 million killed in death mills last year.

"PRO LIFERS ARE A HELL OF A LOT MORE VIOLENT AND HATE MONGERING THEN ANY PRO CHOICER THAT I HAVE EVER MET."

really? pro-choicers have killed 50,000,000 , how many have pro-lifers killed?

Per Amanda:
"You know what that smell is? I think it is called freedom!
Sorry you all believe that your choice is determined by some "higher" being, although he gave us the right to do so."
______________--
First, I'm having a hard time understanding your obvious raving rage. The smell here is acutally a stench that was brought on by PP for forcing this killing mill in a neighborhood and city that clearly doesn't want it there. I think the fine folks of Aurora are exercising thier freedom of "choice" to protest against this killing mill. They were never given a "choice" in the matter.

Per Amanda:
"No one got "paid" out of pocket, know why I know. BECAUSE ABORTION IS NOT ILLEGAL YET, and never will be."

____________
Again, A, having a hard time with your logic, but
it would seem to me that since abortion is legal and gives PP a enormous steady income they would be happy to buy off some sappy Mayor so they can continue raking in millions from the killing of the innocents. Think about it.

Oh, and BTW never say never.

per Jasper
"Hey Amanada, I knew 1.3 million killed in death mills last year.

"PRO LIFERS ARE A HELL OF A LOT MORE VIOLENT AND HATE MONGERING THEN ANY PRO CHOICER THAT I HAVE EVER MET."

really? pro-choicers have killed 50,000,000 , how many have pro-lifers killed?"

How is it a killing mill? It is not a child. A child has a fully functioning brain, and a beating heart, and can survive on it's own. Out side of the womb, it will not be able to grow.
you want to know what murdering innocent people is like? what about the war? ALL war? How many wars were fought in the name of "god". all those innocent children... all the innocence raped by pro lifers in the white house? innocence... does it even exist? the only true innocent person was "Jesus" the only sinless... who of you is sinless... who of all of you can cast the first judgment.
how many murdered by the Nazis?
how many murdered in the crusades?
how many murdered in our own country.
how many murdered for our country?
how many murdered at our boarders?
how many murdered?
How many people are put onto death row?
how many people who were accused of something they did not do died at the hand of the state?
how many convicted of something they did not do?
capital punishment is supported by pro lifers.
the right to bare arms is a pro life issue.
how many people are in prison?
how many violent crimes a year is there?
how many children die every moment from starvation?
A Women is raped every time you blink an eye.
those fetuses are not breathing, thinking moving. accept it. they are not alive.
what about the killing fields of Cambodia.
Not all pro choicers will choose abortion as the way that they will go. many of the pro choices are anti- abortion and are still devoted pro choice *in other words* if the problem arose, and they were pregnant, will choose to place the child up for a adoption, will CHOOSE to place the BORN child up for adoption. As will I, But that is MY PERSONAL choice. as the women next to me has a choice as well. It is an option. like life is an option.

per sandy
"NEVER SAY NEVER"
you will not know if you are pro choice or pro life until you are thrown into a problem which might break your heart.

"...will CHOOSE to place the BORN child up for adoption. As will I,..." posted by Amanda.

Amanda, are you pregnant now? Are you planning on putting the baby up for adoption? Or do you just mean if you were pregnant?

per jasper
did you even read my whole post? did you read why I wrote that? Did you read the part where pro lifers attacked me, multiple times, for the same reason? you have the right to your opinion as much as I do.
just because you surround yourself with people with the same views does not mean that it is the only view out there

another quick thing.
If you bring children, or tell children to protest, you will hear a mouthful from me.
they are your children yes, I will not tell you how to raise them, but to brain wash them with hate ideas and never letting them learn is just a bad idea.
CHILDREN DO NOT HAVE A FRONTAL LOBE... for all you uneducated/undereducated people. The brain is split into different LOBES. the frontal lobe is the section the controls the freedom of thought and the freedom of ideas. Thought process and connecting ideas. Why do you think they call it the monkey see monkey do technique. anything they see you do, they will MIMIC. so if you teach them hate, they will hate, if you teach them facts that are not supported, they will used facts that are not supported. why do you think it is harder for you to learn and change after your at least 21?

and why do you think most EDUCATED PEOPLE are pro choice. if you choose a professor at random at a university, they will most likely be pro choice.

~Kristen~
If I were to become impregnated I would put it up for adoption.

"and why do you think most EDUCATED PEOPLE are pro choice."

Pride, selfishness, and arrogance. God love you, Amanda.

Amanda, so the only children who deserve to live are the ones with "fully functional brains".What about the children that become brain damaged through either accident or disease? Would you have us kill the child at that point? Perhaps you would have us give prenatal tests 9 months into the pregnancy to determine if the unborn has a fully functioning brain. If we follow your line of logic, any baby who had neurological abnormalities would then be aborted. I guess you support late-term abortions right up until delivery if there are any neurological abnormalities.

being educated does not mean that you need to be proud, selfish or arrogance.
sorry to say it, I am one of the most selfless people you will ever meet. arrogance contradicts intelligence. and pride is for someone who is truly uneducated. sorry to say it, but you should go get educated. America is the dumbest of the industrialized countries
God watches me while I help others and while I dedicate myself to helping those who need it. I do not need others to tell me that I am a bad person because I believe that choice was given to us by god

Carrie.
Fully functional brain is defined as such "a brain that is comprehensive of it's environment and sends and receives information from neurons to the brain and back to the receptor" consciousness and one that can react to receptors. That does include fetuses that are in the 3rd trimester. Plus, reread what you wrote, "nine months into the pregnancy" umm, you need find some sex ed.. 9 months... thats when you give birth silly.
I do not believe in late forced abortions, but I do believe if the person is psychologically sound, and with a DOCTOR, then an abortion is a choice that is available.
plus, You don't know me, you can not assume anything about me, and or, anything about my personality. Remember that.

Hi Amanda.

"being educated does not mean that you need to be proud, selfish or arrogance."

This is not what I was implying. As you know, all sin is rooted in the capital sin of pride. Abortion is sin, hence it is rooted in pride.

"sorry to say it, but you should go get educated."

Oh I'm working on it. Hopefully I'll have your wisdom someday. God love you.

Amanda,

Why are you yelling? We're right here and can hear you fine. For someone harping about hate and violence you sure do sound angry.

While it is true that God loves all of His children (He would be incapapable of NOT loving His creations. He even love satan and his minions) it is not true that His love is a guarantee of your salvation. He might desire your presence in heaven, but by making certain choices, you make it impossible for Him to allow you entry. Think about that.

Pride.
no sin is worse the another correct? except the one sin no mortal can be forgiven? that is what is stated in the bible?
some murders do not kill because of pride. that is why there is a disorder called multi-personality disorder(two different personalities found in one persona), and schizophrenia(not knowing the difference between reality and make believe). insanity is --the knowledge of what is right and wrong.--
a true knowledgeable person searches for truth, a smart person is someone who is "given" the truth.
be knowledgeable once you become smart. blessed be Bobby

Amanda,

Slow down, babe. You're not making sense. Are you really young? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, but I can't get past all that anger.

Take a deep breath and try to tell me what your point is. Because right now I can't tell if your upset about the abortion issue, Catholics, Christians, smart people...I'm so confused.

So just take your time and try again. We are willing to listen, but you have to be clearer about what you are trying to get across...
.

Mk- I love you humor :-D I really do.
I just wanted to throw that out there. :-P

"and why do you think most EDUCATED PEOPLE are pro choice." posted by Amanda.

"To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains."
Mary Pettibone Poole

Thank you Amanda.

Now, what are you trying to say in your posts?

And I tried to delete the "f" word in your earlier post and I'm so sorry, but I accidentally deleted the whole post. The rest of the post was fine, just that word...unfortunately, I'm a klutz!

multiple personality disorder has been proven to not exist.

Hi Amanda.

"except the one sin no mortal can be forgiven? that is what is stated in the bible?"

Yes, you are absolutely correct! The unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 is exactly pride. The unforgivable sin is not asking forgiveness. Why? Either because one is too proud to admit they sinned or they believe that the gravity of their sin is greater than God's mercy, which is another form of pride. And every sin, in some way or another, can be traced back to pride. Very, very deadly sin. God love you.

*grins* I am so screwed. Thank you, Blasphemy Challenge.

No, you're not Erin. Despite what the "Rational Response Squad" tells you, it ain't over until it's over. Kelly and that other guy's interpretation of that passage doesn't jive with historical Christianity. You are not screwed. It is not over until you are dead. God love you, Erin.

So...the bible isn't literal? Oooh, but that makes a big mess of conservative ideology...

No, we read the bible literally, i.e. we try and understand what the author of the text was trying to convey. We do not read the bible in a literalistic manner i.e. the words on the page are exactly what they mean. One must take into account idioms, hyperbole, analogy, etc. It must also be read as a whole, interpreting passages in light of other passages. Here the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains both how we are to interpret scripture as well as the senses of scripture much better than I can, paragraphs 112-119. It has nothing to do with conservative ideology. God love you, Erin.

Erin,

It all depends on whether or not you are a Catholic or a Protestant and what kind of Protestant you are.

Catholics believe that church teaching comes from scripture as well as tradition. Protestants don't accept that. They, for the most part, are the ones that read the bible in a literalistic manner.

Some Protestants even go so far as to believe every word exactly as it is written...these are called, I believe, fundamentalists.

I am in Bobby's camp and agree that it ain't over til your dead. But a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step...

For the record, in the Catholic church, your abortion would be a big hurdle to get over. You'd need to make a clean confession to a priest specially chosen to absolve the sins that cause excommunication. Of course, you'd have to be baptized Catholic first. But none of these are brick walls, just steps that you would have to take.

I believe in the Protestant faiths it would be enough to admit that you were sorry.

So providing you don't get struck by lightening tomorrow, and barring any terminal illnesses, you still have time.

and why do you think most EDUCATED PEOPLE are pro choice. if you choose a professor at random at a university, they will most likely be pro choice.

Posted by: Amanda the Egyptian at October 2, 2007 3:49 PM

This statement is beyond ludicrous. Where did you hear this? From some professor at a random university?? Amanda, what is your level of education??

"So providing you don't get struck by lightening tomorrow, and barring any terminal illnesses, you still have time."

Actually, MK, even then, we have no idea the amount of grace that God pours out upon His children in the hour of their death. St. Faustina's diary gives many wonderful and hopeful reasons why this may be true. Of course it is private revelation, so it's not binding, but I think it makes perfect sense in light of God's fatherhood. But I'm not saying that one should "hold out" for an abundance of grace at the last moment either, just that it COULD be true. Man, I love being Catholic; we have so much freedom in our beliefs! God love you, Mary.

You know, one of my theatre teachers has been struck by lightning three times. He was awesome.

And thanks for the support, but I really don't feel any need to become religious. I'm secure in my own self-worth and morality. I don't need to have it backed up by an ancient institution.

So you can't talk to a priest unless you've been baptized Catholic? Why not be baptized Protestant, then you could talk directly to God, cut out the middle man....

They say your rear end is the best place to get hit by lightning. Provided you desire to be hit by lightning.....

"So you can't talk to a priest unless you've been baptized Catholic?" No, anyone can talk to a priest. I guess I'm not sure what you mean J...

MK says you can't talk to a priest unless you're Catholic

I'm with you Bobby! It was St. Faustina that was given an "Illumination of Conscience." (For those of you who might not know what that means, it's the ability to see your soul as God sees it. I’m not being patronizing, I just think some may not know.) After the revelation God asked (and I'm paraphrasing) if she wanted to spend a day in the fires of purgatory or suffer a little while on Earth. And SAINT Faustina replied "I want to suffer in purgatory, and I want to suffer also the greatest pains on earth, even if it were until the end of the world."

I think about that all the time. I mean she was a SAINT for cryin' out loud! I hate to think what I'll be looking at come judgment day. I'm hoping for A LOT of mercy! :)

JKeller,

MK says you can't talk to a priest unless you're Catholic

No, MK says you can't go to confession and be absolved of the sin of abortion unless you have been baptized Catholic first.

And MK also said, that if you choose to go the protestant route, you just have to admit that you are sorry.

Why not become a protestant? Good question. And many Protestants have taken your advice.

MK says you can't talk to a priest unless you're Catholic

Posted by: JKeller at October 2, 2007 5:58 PM

Actually MK said you'd have to be baptized Catholic to make a confession. You can go talk to a priest anytime you want, although Monday is their usual days off....you know, Church on Sunday and all.

Kristen,

"I want to suffer in purgatory, and I want to suffer also the greatest pains on earth, even if it were until the end of the world."

And she did this for the conversion of sinners...

Pay attention JKeller and Erin.

Bobby,

I certainly never meant to imply that Erin or anyone else should sit around sinnin' til the last minute.
Just wanted to point out that no sin is too great, and the door is ALWAYS open. Whether it's today, tomorrow or 10 years from now. Provided of course, you're still here. If not, sorry.

I thought Jesus was the only one who had to suffer for other peoples' sins?

JKeller,

If you're looking to talk to a priest I can give you the names of a few great ones...

Naw, I'm good. I go to church with a bunch of Bible wizened folks.

JKeller,

I thought Jesus was the only one who had to suffer for other peoples' sins?

He did. But He also taught us that suffering is imperative. For all of us. Some people voluntarily suffer. They are called victim souls. Some have suffering placed upon them, and they accept it willingly.

Bishop Sheen says, "The tragedy is not there is suffering in the world. The tragedy is that so much of it is wasted."

In dying on that cross, Jesus taught us the redemptive power of suffering. He called us to imitate Him in ALL things, and the greatest thing that He did was to suffer for us.

When we offer up our suffering we climb onto the cross with Him.

JKeller,

Naw, I'm good. I go to church with a bunch of Bible wizened folks.

LOL...cuz us Catholics have never seen what's between the covers of one of those...

You do realize JK, that you wouldn't have a bible if not for the Catholics. We wrote it.

But our suffering is part of our own spiritual journey, because we are sinners and "deserve" it. Jesus never deserved his suffering because he was sinless, his suffering was in order to offer us grace. Our own suffering can never offer grace to others.

Now Jasper,

This would be a good opportunity to share your faith. I believe JK is being sincere. Help out here, will ya? Isn't that what the 15 Hail Holy Queens is all about?

Actually, the church of Satan has a fascinating history behind it. It emphasizes not living a life of subservience. Very interesting.

"I thought Jesus was the only one who had to suffer for other peoples' sins?"

Oh man, JKeller, you've hit on one of my favorite aspects of Catholic theology, and that is suffering. (In fact, just today received Father Corapi's PhD dissertation "The Cross of Christ in the Magisterium of John Paul II" from the library.) I'll give you the short, short version of how Catholics understand suffering. We believe that God actually allows our suffering to be salvific; in other words, we join our suffering to that of Christ on the cross and participate in the redemption of Christ. God actually has the power to raise us up to be co-redeemers with Jesus. It is not by our own power that our suffering is salvific, but by Gods. It is simply incredible. This is one of the reasons that I say that the Catholic faith is too good to be true, because through our suffering, God chooses to apply graces to those who need it. God love you, JKeller.

You're right MK, I went back and deleted my comment. sorry JK

jasper,

Go ahead with your sweeping generalizations of people based on their political leanings. I go to Bedford Acres Christian Church, a non denominational Protestant church.

MK,

I never meant that Catholics don't read the Bible, just that you all don't own the patent on Biblical knowledge. If I wanted spiritual advice, why would a priest be the only one that could give it to me, when a Protestant pastor is just as capable?

JKeller- see verses like Col 1:24 and 1 Cor 3:9. 1 Cor 3:9 talks about how we are co-workers with God. Now why would God need co-workers? Can't he get the job done himself? He raises us up to his level, just like a loving Father would.

JKeller,

But our suffering is part of our own spiritual journey, because we are sinners and "deserve" it. Jesus never deserved his suffering because he was sinless, his suffering was in order to offer us grace. Our own suffering can never offer grace to others.

On it's own, no. But united with Christ's it can.

Beautiful isn't it? I tear my ACL and offer up the surgery, pain, therapy, inconvenience...unite it to Christ's suffering...and who knows who might be converted.

Or Valerie bumps her head on a kitchen cabinet and gets a concussion, and immediately says, this is for the conversion of my friends...and who knows?

Anything could happen.

The thing is, as Saint Faustina tells us, Christ's Mercy is bottomless. But it must be asked for. People that reject it are SOL as they say, unless someone else steps in and asks for them...and then offers up cleaning the toilet, or chemotherapy...Jesus' heart is moved, and His grace is poured out on the soul, and a conversion takes place.

This, according to Faustina, is a period of GREAT MERCY. Divine Mercy. But it is not endless. Eventually, the Father's time of Justice will begin. Justice, while beautiful, can also be a tad unpleasant for the uninitiated...

Thank you jasper

I thought Jesus was the only one who had to suffer for other peoples' sins?

Posted by: JKeller at October 2, 2007 6:12 PM

Why would that be? He made us in his image. If he suffered why shouldn't we? He gives us free will to choose - as Saint Faustina did - but doesn't demand it of us.

Erin and J you really should read about the Saints. There is a wonderful book called "The Incoruptables." It's very short stories of some of the Saints. Regardless of the religious aspect it's a good read.

If you're a little curious about the Faith then maybe you should look up Matthew Kelly. He travels around telling about his experiences and is VERY interesting. (And not bad to look at!) Look him up at www.matthewkelly.org.

That just seems silly. People can't inherently just have the strength to get through their own problems? We suffer terrible things because of god? Or Jesus? Or...it just isn't logical. Bad things happen because sometimes bad things happen. You can either deal with it, or not. It's all a matter of individual coping mechanisms. Sometimes Jesus or God or what not helps people cope. Sometimes people have inherent strength that doesn't require the assistance of religion for them to cope.

Doesn't it make the sacrifice of Christ less special if it can be done by anyone? If by simply praying for someone, you could save them from hell, why would you need Jesus in the first place?

JKeller,

I never meant that Catholics don't read the Bible, just that you all don't own the patent on Biblical knowledge. If I wanted spiritual advice, why would a priest be the only one that could give it to me, when a Protestant pastor is just as capable?

The protestant church only has one sacrament. The sacrament of baptism. A few protestant churches consider the Eucharist a sacrament, but the Catholic church does not believe that this sacrament is valid in any but the Catholic Church. The do recognize the sacrament of baptism, however. But the Catholic church has 7 sacraments.

"Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification"

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

Our sacraments are Baptism, Reconciliation (Confession), Communion (Eucharist), Marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing of the sick, and Confirmation.

Holy Orders is the sacrament celebrated when a man becomes a priest.

Each priest can be traced back to Peter. This is called the apostolic succession. A bishop confers the Holy Orders on the priest. A bishop before him did the same. And so on and so on...

A priest can do many things that a lay person cannot. One of them is to change the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of our Lord.

Another is to forgive sins.

"The Argument Against

The most commonly used argument against confession goes something like this: “I can confess directly to God; He knows my sins already. I don’t have to confess to another man. The practice of going to confession was invented by men.” This argument is heard widely among critics of the Orthodox Church. I once actually heard a minister of another faith make a public statement very similar to this! It is, unfortunately, also often heard within the Church. Of course, if we follow this argument to its logical (or rather, illogical) conclusion, we would have to say: “I don’t have to go to church, I can pray to God directly,” or, “I don’t have to be baptized, I can accept Jesus as my personal Savior in my heart,” etc., etc.

Anyone who makes the claim that there is no foundation for the practice of confession of sins before a priest in the Bible, reveals an abysmal ignorance of what is actually written in the Bible. Several statements of our Lord unmistakably and directly command the Apostles to forgive sins in His name and with His authority. Several statements of St. Paul are also extremely direct in this matter.

The most obvious statement of Christ in regard to the Sacrament of Penance is found in the Gospel of St. John. After His Resurrection, Jesus confers authority upon the Apostles and tells them: “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I send you. . . Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you do not forgive, they are not forgiven.” (Jn 20:22-23) What could be more obvious than this statement? How anyone could say the Sacrament of Penance is man’s invention after reading this passage, would require some amazing verbal acrobatics! Note that the Apostles were commanded to forgive sins. How were they to forgive sins and judge which sins to forgive or not forgive, unless they know the sins? If a man’s sins were to be forgiven, they, therefore, had to first be revealed."

http://tinyurl.com/23o46q

Bobby,

When Paul is speaking of his suffering, it sounds to me like he is speaking of it more as a setting of an example than an actual act of saving souls in itself. I believe the main role of the apostles were to be a strong example. So people could say "look at what they are enduring, and they are still strong in their faith. We're only experiencing a fraction of their suffering, why aren't we keeping the faith?"

But our suffering is part of our own spiritual journey, because we are sinners and "deserve" it. Jesus never deserved his suffering because he was sinless, his suffering was in order to offer us grace. Our own suffering can never offer grace to others.

Posted by: JKeller at October 2, 2007 6:20 PM

That's just it! Our suffering can alleviate the suffering of others.

My dad died back in '93. I loved my dad more than anyone but he did a lot of things he wasn't proud of doing. After the funeral I was given a package of letters he wrote to his mother. I couldn't do anything but cry when I read them. He was very worried about his soul and what he had done. I know that he confessed before he died and was given the last rights but I was still worried about him suffering. (See although God is merciful he is also just and there is some suffering involved in reaching Heaven.) I offer up my suffering, sometimes doing the laundry - which I HATE doing, sometimes a physical pain, etc. Nothing is wasted and when my dad is in Heaven, hopefully already, my suffering will help another soul.

Christ redeemed us. Period. It is because of his sacrifice, and his sacrifice alone that salvation is even possible. But he allows us to participate in his sacrifice. Our suffering could be meaningless, but Christ allows it to have meaning, if we offer it up. So even though Christ allows us to suffer with him, it in no way takes away from his once for all sacrifice on Calvary that only he could achieve. In fact, it glorifies him even more because it shows that he has the power to make the suffering a bum like me salvific. Think about this in terms of the verses I suggested above.

Also, it isn't prayers of people per say that save people from hell, but it is God's grace. So actually prayers can confer grace, but only the person can actually choose if they are for or against God. I hope this clarifies the Catholic understanding more. God love you, JKeller.

JKeller,

Doesn't it make the sacrifice of Christ less special if it can be done by anyone? If by simply praying for someone, you could save them from hell, why would you need Jesus in the first place?

Well first off, who do you think we are praying to?

We don't save anyone. He does. But He taught us that Sacrifice is necessary. It was this way all through the old testament, and it still is today. The difference is, the covenant Jesus made for us is forever. The old covenants could be and were, broken. This covenant cannot be broken. But it is up to us to keep up our end. One of the ways we do this, is to act like Jesus. And He suffered. He sacrificed. So we suffer. And we sacrifice.

Matt. 10:38 - Jesus said, "he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Jesus defines discipleship as one's willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 - Jesus said, "if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 - Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 - Jesus said, "whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.

John 7:39 - Jesus was first glorified on the cross, not just the resurrection. This text refers to John 19:34, when Jesus was pierced on the cross by the soldier's lance.

John 12:24 - unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone and bears no fruit. Jesus is teaching that suffering and death are part of every human life, and it is only through suffering and death that we obtain the glory of resurrection.

Rom. 5:2-3 - Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 - Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 - the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 - Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/suffering.html

"When Paul is speaking of his suffering, it sounds to me like he is speaking of it more as a setting of an example than an actual act of saving souls in itself."

I think a lot of what you are saying is true. But we should never limit ourselves to just one meaning of a given text. Think about his phrase "...I complete what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ..." What in the world is lacking in Christ's afflictions? We believe that it is our suffering. God love you.

Wow, MK, you're hardcore! God love you!

This is a great conversation, and I hate to run out on it, but I gotta go. Good journey and God love ya'll.

Bobby,

I'm just madly in love with Church. She is so deep, so beautiful. And you are hard core too. All is takes is the first step. I get dizzy sometimes.

Last week a few things happened and the joy that I felt was almost painful. I kept thinking, no wonder we aren't always allowed to feel this. It would kill us. Joy is powerful. And so strong. Way different than the happiness most people strive for.

I'm tellin' you, it actually hurt!

Protestant churches do preach the suffering and crucifixion of Christ, along with the resurrection. The resurrection is the symbol for the grace of God and the fact that he does fulfill his promises. What would be the promise of the "light at the end of the tunnel" of our suffering if God did not prove that he fulfills his promises. It's been said that Jesus actually went to hell while he was dead and the resurrection is the triumph of Jesus over death and Satan.

I agree with Bobby! MK your last few posts taught me more than my 4 years at Catholic high school!

JKeller,

Protestant churches do preach the suffering and crucifixion of Christ, along with the resurrection. The resurrection is the symbol for the grace of God and the fact that he does fulfill his promises. What would be the promise of the "light at the end of the tunnel" of our suffering if God did not prove that he fulfills his promises. It's been said that Jesus actually went to hell while he was dead and the resurrection is the triumph of Jesus over death and Satan.

Yes this is all true. There was never any chance of God not fulfilling His promises.

In the Old Testament, it was men that broke the covenant. But the new covenant is such that even if we break our end, the covenant still stands.

Christ was the ultimate Lamb, the final perfect offering.

But like Him, we will not reach Easter, til we have experienced our own Good Friday. While protestants believe that it is enough to believe, we believe that faith and works are not separate things... and part of those works are taking up the cross with Christ. We can do this by offering up little and big sufferings, feeding the hungry, loving our neighbor or biting our tongues.

A story.

A man has been given his cross to carry. He hates it. Claims he got gypped and wonders if he is carrying the largest cross on earth. After weeks of moaning Jesus appears to him and says, here let me help. See that room over there? Leave your cross here, and go into the room. Take any cross you like.

So the man goes into the room and looks around. There are crosses of every conceivable size and weight. Huge ones, Towering ones, and over in the corner is a little bitty tiny one. This is the one the man chooses. He picks it up and goes back out to Jesus.

"I thought you were going to get a new cross" Jesus says, when He sees him.

"I did" says the man.

"No you didn't. That's the same cross you left with me. After you left, I put it back in the room!"

We are ALL asked to carry our cross. But from God's stand point, even the hugest cross to us, is but a sliver to Him.

Kristen,

Nonsense. I just went to a Catholic Website to get the scripture references. I've heard them all before, but unlike Bethany, I couldn't quote 'em to save my soul...pun intended.

MK, us Protestants are expected to carry the cross as well, doing good deeds an practicing what we preach. I dislike televangelists for presenting the front you describe, "with a call and a one time donation of $59.97 you can hand your life over to Jaaaaaayzus". We believe equality with Christ is something to be strived for but never attained.

Anyway, I have to be going. I hope you understand why I defend Protestantism, and it is not that I hate Catholicism or think it is wrong. The sacraments as you describe them seem (to me) like rituals, the kind of rituals that the new covenant was supposed to abolish. Protestantism was born (ideally) because of the desire for people to pull away from a Church that many felt had been corrupted by men. Yes, many Protestant churches are now corrupt today (Southern Baptist Convention anyone?) but all Christians share the same desire to be Christ-like, procedures shouldn't exclude anyone.

JKeller,

You confuse cooperating with being equal to..

We will never be "equal" to Him.

And we aren't buying our way to heaven.
We just don't separate the two.

When you were young, did you obey your parents to earn their love? Or did you obey them because you loved them?

Likewise, we do good things for Him gladly, because we love Him.

JK,

Of course I don't mind that you stick up for protestants. Any more than you mind that I defend the Catholic Faith.

I'm more concerned about your take on the right to life...lol.

We can talk more later. It was really a pleasure.
God Bless and Good night.

CARDER - yes I'm from Poland and read Jill's Blog every day

Amanda,

you wrote.

America is the dumbest of the industrialized countries

Posted by: Amanda the Egyptian at October 2, 2007 4:01 PM

Part of my graduate studies was in educational measurement.

American students don't always compare favorably to other countries on academic measures because we include literally everyone in the measure. Most other countries including Europe only count their better students.