I'm so glad she did that, maybe more of them will come to pro-life conventions and switch sides after they hear the truth. Besides pro-lifers are so much nicer anyway.

"Abortion is a moral good and a social good."

That quote should give you guys enought to chew on today.

Rosie, along those lines, I was happy to see pro-aborts at the Aurora City Council meetings, because I thought their hearing us vanilla instead of after being filtered would convert some of them.

I wondered if one reason they always seemed to leave the meetings at the first break was because we were making too much sense and freaking them out.

Jill: "I wondered if one reason they always seemed to leave the meetings at the first break was because we were making too much sense and freaking them out."

Jill with all due respect, none of the pro-lifers on your very fine blog have ever even approached "making too much sense" in my view. I will admit to being freaked out often by some comments here though.

Can you share with us a few of those comments?

This reminds me of Nancy Pelosi's daughter Alexandra came to the Rock for Life Training Weekend in 2006. She videotaped everything, and included some of it in her documentary.

Hal: "Abortion is a moral good and a social good"

finish the sentence,..."to a psychopath, but not to any of his/her victims" Hal, go chew on that one. Savor it. Digest it. It will much better for you, and the rest of the real world, than that bit of toxic misrepresentation you originally posted. Next time put that down the nearest working toilet, which was designed for the disposal of toxic waste. The human spirit was not.

Carder, too busy right now to go search. Basically, the ones claiming to know what God is or what God wants or what God doesn't like, or that there is a "God." And everything Hisman ever wrote.

Flynn: you have a great day too.

THREE presidential candidates? Oh no! ;)

Great article.

Sometimes, it surprises ME that I am pro-life.
I started out in a PL family, but quickly found in college that the other women I found myself drawn to were pro-choice. I, too, took up that position, having an abortion myself at 19. I never thought that it was a moral good though, even in my pro-choice stage.

As time went on, I had the opportunity to watch a friend of mine have a baby at 23 weeks. The baby survived and flourished and I began to question some of my beliefs about abortion.
Although still pro-choice, I could no longer support late second and third trimester abortions, as I KNEW now that those could easily be viable babies.

As I matured and explored, I found it harder and harder to draw the line of exactly when abortion WASN'T killing a child. I came to realize that that was not a distinction that could be made.
And I realized, much to my horror, actually, that I was pretty darn pro-life.
I know some will see my as a hypocrite, heck, I see myself that way sometimes too. I chose abortion once, but I know I wouldn't do it again. Even when faced with the probable diagnosis of Downs in our baby, we knew she had a right to be born, and we had no right to decide what value her life had.

I think it is short-sighted to paint all pro-lifers as religious fanatics, uneducated, birth-control hating, submissive to men, prude people. I don't need a God to tell me that killing an innocent person is wrong, I know it in my being. Just as those in PETA don't generally quote the Bible in their staunch opposition of the mistreatment of animals. Some things, we just know are wrong.

So, I am here, and I am pro-life and I am glad that that shocks and surprises some people. Great!!

Fresa - I'm glad you came over "from the dark side." May the force be with you!

"THREE presidential candidates? Oh no! ;)"

Unless Rudy wakes up and backs up what he says; "I hate abortion"

Fresa: "I think it is short-sighted to paint all pro-lifers as religious fanatics, uneducated, birth-control hating, submissive to men, prude people. I don't need a God to tell me that killing an innocent person is wrong, I know it in my being. Just as those in PETA don't generally quote the Bible in their staunch opposition of the mistreatment of animals. Some things, we just know are wrong."

This is the most rational pro-life post I've seen here ever. (prettyinpink, I think you're pretty rational too) This is an opinion I can respect. If there were more like Fresa, I wouldn't feel the necessity to post here at all.

Hal, I don't think you've been listening.

I have been listening to those who think sex should always be "open" to procreation, that birth control isn't a good idea, that sex should only be in marriage, that gays should not have the right to get married, that health clinics should be closed because of alleged technical errors in a a permit application, that praying accomplishes something, that wives should be submissive to their husbands, that everyone should be submissive to "god.," and that (from Jill) "if there is no God than abortion is not wrong."

If the message is simply "terminating a pregancy is an immoral act of killing an innocent life" I have no objection whatsoever to your position. It's not my position, but it is defensible.
All the other stuff is crazy talk.

Hal,

Am I to take it that that means that you are here hoping to change our minds? Cuz, from what I see, you mostly watch, listen, and occasionally comment. While our arguments may not seem ultra rational to you, at least they are arguments...what exactly have you brought to the table?!?

Fresa,

Welcome, Welcome and Welcome...

Good question MK. What I've brought to the table are clever potshots at crazy beliefs. Someone, somewhere, will read enough of them and perhaps to decide to adopt a rational view of the world. If not, at least I had some fun getting Jasper all riled up.

Seriously, though, what I think I may have added of value to these discussions is the perspective of someone who's wife had two abortions. Not all abortions are single irresponsible people, not all take place at abortion "mills," and not all regret the decision. Reading the posts when I first came here, they didn't seem to acknowledge certain aspects of the debate,and I hope my personal experiences might have humanized those previously demonized.

I have to admit that one of the "problems" I have with this blog is the anti-homosexual aspect. I really want to connect with other pro-lifers, but I have no problem with homosexuality, that, in my opinion, really is none of my business.
So I do see Hal's point. Sometimes, I cringe when I see or hear anti-homosexuality comments made in the context of other pro-life messages, because I hate thinking that people assume I believe those things too.
For the record, I think abortion is wrong. I think the death penalty is wrong. I have mixed opinions on euthanasia (I lean towards believing that if a person is able to make the decision for themselves, I don't really have a problem with it, but think it is so sad), I don't have a problem with birth control, I think kids should refrain from sex for a myriad of reasons, mostly of the germ a phobe variety, I am torn because I know that embryos are destroyed in IVF, but know I would have gone to any lengths to have a baby, and think that what happens between consenting adults in the privacy of their bedroom is none of my business.
So there, that is what I believe.

Welcome, Fresa. You and I share the same views on many subjects, not just abortion. I have no issue with homosexuality and I have no issue with birth control. They haven't kicked me off the blog and I've been posting for about 2 weeks(lol). Glad you are here.

Fresa,

Welcome. I'm not certain what you mean by the anti-homosexual aspect. I've seen little if anything said about homosexuality on this blog, or maybe I have just missed certain posts. Personally, I have no strong feelings for or against gay people, and really don't see how the two issues even relate.
I will say that the one gay nurse I do know is far more discreet about her sexual activities than some of the straight people I hear sitting in the lounge. Folks, there are things I just don't need to know.

Fresa,

The loudest voices in the anti-abortion movement always seem to be anti-gay, anti-birth-control, and pro-death-penalty, but I think those voices represent fewer pro-lifers than most people think. :) I'm always looking to connect with other like-minded pro-lifers too.

Fresa - you sound a lot like me in the evolution of your thinking (except for the "having had an abortion" part, which I can ascribe to nothing more than "there but for the grace of God go I")

I'm not a regular poster here, but posting tonight while the kidz watch "Thomas"! So anyway, from an infrequent poster, "hi"!

I guess the comment that sticks in my mind was in the article about men with lower voices having more children.
I have a hard time reconciling my disdain for abortion with my other rather "liberal" views.
Anyway, I am feeling welcome here and am looking forward to making some new friends.

Then I guess y'all haven't heard about the Atheist and Agnostic Prolife League: http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

I hear a lot of complaints regarding the "anti-choicer" being white, middle class, heterosexual Christian male. There are prolifers out there that don't fit that mold and I'm glad they're around.

Hal,

Seriously, though, what I think I may have added of value to these discussions is the perspective of someone who's wife had two abortions. Not all abortions are single irresponsible people, not all take place at abortion "mills," and not all regret the decision. Reading the posts when I first came here, they didn't seem to acknowledge certain aspects of the debate,and I hope my personal experiences might have humanized those previously demonized.

Fair enough. But I still think you take more potshots than actually debate. Not that I'm complaining. I'm glad you're here. I just found it interesting that you criticized people for having "crazy" life views, then implied that you stick around to talk some sense into us, and yet you rarely "talk"...and do you honestly believe that disrespectful quips will win us over to your "rational" view?

Fresa,

You will find that the best thing about this site is that virtually everyone is welcome. The conversations can and do get heated, but we respect each others differences and celebrate each others similarities. The "rules" have only recently been posted on the right side of the screen. They are few.

We have people here who are Christian, Catholic Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Pro Life, Pro choice, ambivalent about homosexuality, anti- homosexuality, pro death penalty, anti death penalty, pro war, anti war, pro bush, anti bush, old, young, from Canada, Germany, France, liberal, conservative and of course our resident sociopath, SoMG...

There is basically no view that you could hold that would get you "thrown off". In 6 months of moderating, I can count on two hands how many comments have been deleted. Mostly due to foul language.

We all have different ways of expressing our views. Some you will find enlightening, while some you will find infuriating...but that's what makes it interesting.

I disagree with a good many folk on a good many issues here, but I try (with the exception of abortion), to explain my position rather than point fingers.

I think even Hal will agree, that while he hates what I preach, he doesn't have too much problem with how I preach it.

Anyway, I am one of the moderators here. Jasper is another, as well as Val, Bethany and Lauren.

Lauren is MIA as she has been moving across country this month, Val is writing a book and disappears from time to time, but pops in when you least expect it, Bethany is usually on more, but she is painting a mural in her kitchen this week and Jasper you have met.

The Aurora issue has brought a rash of Newbies these last few weeks, so we can all get to know each other together.

Welcome to all of you....
Hope to see more of you...
MK (Mary Kay)

Yeah, I actually live in Oakhurst and so this issue is hitting really close to home right.Way to close to home.
I really had no idea how much it would upset me to drive by this place every day.
Even though I abhor what they are doing there, I think there is a reason it was slapped right in the middle of our seemingly perfect little community. I think maybe some of us needed a real wake up call to action.
But, that is just what I think....

I agree that Aurora has been a wake-up call, not just for Illinois, but prolifers everywhere. I know what you mean about getting upset just driving by a mill. After I pray outside of one, I am emotionally drained. It takes alot out of me.

"Bader couldn't quite keep the surprise out of her voice when she reported that those at the NRLC Convention were "smart, educated, beautiful and articulate."

Al least she disagree's with Erin that all pro-lifers are stupid.

I don't think all lifers are stupid. I think they're generally illogical.

"prettyinpink, I think you're pretty rational too)"
Aw thanks :)

"but I have no problem with homosexuality, that, in my opinion, really is none of my business."
Where have you been?! Wanna be my buddy?

" I've seen little if anything said about homosexuality on this blog"
Are we counting Zeke?

They don't need to spy. They can just show up. We don't say or do anything differently based on whether or not prochoicers are present.

Compare what prochoicers find out when they spy on a prolife meeting, versus what prolifers find out when they spy on a prochoice meeting.

The stuff that I heard on National Abortion Federation meeting and Risk Management Seminar tapes would curl your hair. If we could make those tapes available in every university library in America, the abortion lobby would be shaking in their shoes. A few examples:

1. Michael Burnhill ripping Steve Lichtenberg a new asshole for "playing Russian roulette" with patients' lives by doing risky abortions in an outpatient setting and treating life-threatening complications in an outpatient setting instead of transferring the patient to a properly equipped hospital.

2. Michael Burnhill chewing out an abortionist for saying that when he pulled loops of the patient's bowel out through her vagina, he'd just stuff it back in, watch her extra in recovery, send her home without even telling her what he'd done, and "keeping [his] fingers crossed." After chewing him out, Burnhill asked for a show of hands for how many others present did the "cross your fingers" approach, and SIX of them raised their hands and admitted to it, even after Burnhill had reamed the first guy out.

3. Warren Hern chewing his fellows out for quackery, telling them that the way to avoid being sued is to stop committing malpractice.

Why don't rank and file prochoicers spy on their own organizations? They'd get an eye opener, that's for sure!

Christina,

How does one obtain copies of that tape?

I recall Fr. Pavone commenting on a how-to presentation on late-term abortions. You know, the graphic language that step-by-step describes the proper method of removing limbs, body cavities and so forth. He said at the end of the presentation the audience burst into applause.

He called it "The Applause From Hell".

Pretty in Pink: I think we would make fine buddies;)
Thanks for asking!

MK: "and do you honestly believe that disrespectful quips will win us over to your "rational" view?"

No. I don't. Sometimes I can't help myself. The "talking" about the issue doesn't get too far usually. We can agree on certain issues, but the core issue is quite a conversation stopper. I have no objection to abortion, in theory or in practice. You guys think it's the worst thing happening in society. Not much to talk about is there?

Hal,

And yet here you are!

Hmmmm....

But stick around. One of us is bound to turn the other!

Hal writes: "I have been listening to those who think sex should always be "open" to procreation, that birth control isn't a good idea, that sex should only be in marriage, that gays should not have the right to get married, that health clinics should be closed because of alleged technical errors in a a permit application, that praying accomplishes something, that wives should be submissive to their husbands, that everyone should be submissive to "god.," and that (from Jill) 'if there is no God than abortion is not wrong.'"

Hal, speaking for myself only:

1. I'm not crazy about the contraceptive mentality that equates becoming pregnant with contracting a venereal disease, so put me on the side that favors natural family planning over creams, pills, and sponges. That said, if a contraceptive is a TRUE contraceptive and not something that is also abortafacient by nature, I'm certainly not LEGALLY opposed to it. When you say that some are "anti-birth control," it's difficult to tell whether you mean they want to BAN all contraception, or simply that they eschew them themselves. If it's the latter, is that REALLY a problem for you?

2. I have zero problem at all with gays and lesbians living their lives, marrying, and adopting children. I fail to see how allowing gays to marry is somehow "anti-marriage" or how it will have any sort of adverse effect on, say, my parents' marriage.

3. My opposition to abortion is similar to my opposition to rape, or to abusing one's wife or husband. Religion has nothing to do with it; science tells us that a life begins at the moment of fertilization, and so it really doesn't matter if some don't think the embryo/fetus doesn't "look like a baby."

4. I believe in equality for all. Women shouldn't be subservient to men; men shouldn't be subservient to women, either. Men aren't from Mars and women aren't from Venus; we're all from earth and our difference derive from the fact that each human being is unique -- not because of alleged differences between the genders.

Hope this helps.

Seriously, though, what I think I may have added of value to these discussions is the perspective of someone who's wife had two abortions. Not all abortions are single irresponsible people, not all take place at abortion "mills," and not all regret the decision. Reading the posts when I first came here, they didn't seem to acknowledge certain aspects of the debate,and I hope my personal experiences might have humanized those previously demonized.
Posted by: Hal at October 3, 2007 3:57 PM

Hal,
Your posts have done nothing to humanize anything about this issue. If anything, you have dehumanized the issue even further for me.
Why? Because two married people in love who created two children out of love decided to "get rid of them" for a matter of convenience.

What sickens me is that you have no regret about the decisions you made to "pick and choose" the children that fit conveniently in your life. You are so unphased by what you did, you have demonized yourself beyond women who regret their abortions and struggle with their decisions.

What also makes me feel like you are so completely far removed from the issue of abortion is that you tend to not want to acknowlege that millions of women did not have the same "privileged" experience you and your wife had. They didn't get their abortion in a clean, tidy and "gee how wonderful atmosphere" in their own super duper nice doctor's office.

They were herded into a filthy mill like a cattle, had their business hanging out all while the first and only time they met the doctor who maybe said hello, (but never introduced him or herself) and were then aborted with filthy instruments and then left to cry in a room full of post-abortive women to stale eat cookies.

You support and stand up for clinics in which women have been permanently maimed and killed instead of speaking out against them.

Sandy, what an excellent post!

Hal, how could you possibly know how a woman having an abortion feels? I've known a few women who had their abortions performed by their private gyno's. Was the doctor's office cleaner? Of course, but the end result was the same. They had their children sucked from their womb. Abortion=death.

Kelli,
His wife is there to tell him.

I've asked this before, Hal, but I didn't catch the answer if you threw it at me, but would it be out of bounds for us to discuss with your wife her own feelings on the matter? Not that I don't trust what you say. It would be interesting to see how husband/wife agree on a shared experience such as abortion.

And I promise I'll be nice to her. :-)

carder, I'll bet her version is much different than his.

"You support and stand up for clinics in which women have been permanently maimed and killed instead of speaking out against them."

I don't think I ever supported a clinic that permanently maimed or killed a patient.

"Hal, how could you possibly know how a woman having an abortion feels?"

Oh, I don't know, by living with one for the past 15 years. By talking to other women who are happy they had access to legal abortions.

"What also makes me feel like you are so completely far removed from the issue of abortion is that you tend to not want to acknowlege that millions of women did not have the same "privileged" experience you and your wife had. They didn't get their abortion in a clean, tidy and "gee how wonderful atmosphere" in their own super duper nice doctor's office."

Yet when Planned Parenthood tried to open a nice new clean tidy and wonderful atmosphere clinic, you guys go nuts.

and to bmmg39, I have no objection to people who don't want to use birth control, only those that are against it in gerneral.

"Because two married people in love who created two children out of love decided to "get rid of them" for a matter of convenience."

Sandy, I just don't think the government should be involved in any way with judging whether a woman's reasons for deciding to terminate a pregnancy are "good enough?"

What you call "convenience," someone else might call "necessity."

carder, she is not well and would not enjoy the sport of this site as much as I do. I'd rather not bug her about it. I think I mentioned we don't discuss the abortions anymore (ancient history) but I do know she is still very very pro-choice politically. She's a fairly traditional Democrat (with some exceptions)

Per Hal
"I don't think I ever supported a clinic that permanently maimed or killed a patient."

Yes you do. You stated you would more send money to PP to support thier efforts. They have maimed and killed women.

Per Hal:
"Yet when Planned Parenthood tried to open a nice new clean tidy and wonderful atmosphere clinic, you guys go nuts."

Yes. Because they maim and kill women. Oh yes, and the millions of innocent unborn.

Per Hal:
"What you call "convenience," someone else might call "necessity."

Just what was the necessity in your case Hal?

"Just what was the necessity in your case Hal?"

That's my point. You, or the government, don't get to ask or judge, we don't have to justify our decision to you or the government.

Hal and his wife don't discuss the death of their children anymore? Cold and disturbing.

Hal,

"Just what was the necessity in your case Hal?"
*
That's my point. You, or the government, don't get to ask or judge, we don't have to justify our decision to you or the government.

How can you claim to be on here to enlighten us about your "choice" and then not tell us what led you to your choice?

See what I mean about not bringing "a covered dish" to the party?

Here's a question. If you are totally comfortable with your decision, and have no regrets, then why would you have a problem stating your reasons? If you liken an abortion to a tooth extraction (not saying that you ever did, just using it as an example), I assume you'd have no problem telling us that you had nerve damage and needed the tooth pulled.

Similarly, if you find nothing wrong with abortion, because it's not a baby, just a bunch of tissue, then why would you have a problem sharing your reasons for getting rid of the tissue.

And peoples reactions shouldn't really matter. No matter how many people told me that I shouldn't have pulled my tooth because it is morally wrong, I wouldn't care. Because it is, afterall, just a tooth.

There could be entire "anti-tooth removal" groups, and if I went to their website, I'd have to be prepared to defend my pulled tooth. Primarily by giving my reasons for doing so.

The fact that you don't share your reasons, tells me that there is some part of you that feels you did something unsavory...or there would be no need for hiding them.

Also, you said your wife is not well. Do you mean she has the sniffles, or that she has Lupus or MS?

If it's the sniffles, I hope she feels better soon, but if it's something more serious, then I will be praying (ahhhhh, quit yer bellyachin'! It can't hurt and it might help!) for her and you.

My father is quite ill and I know the toll it takes on the my mother. Watching someone you love, suffer, is so difficult. Anyway, just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you both.

I know people who are elderly, and they have never gotten over the deaths of their children. They are still very grief stricken, no matter how many years have passed. I suppose that's the difference between the one who treasures their child, or one who can toss them away like day old trash.

Hal, I hope it is nothing serious with your wife.

Hal, likewise.

"and to bmmg39, I have no objection to people who don't want to use birth control, only those that are against it in gerneral."

Again, "against" is a pretty broad word. Against like being against the designated hitter rule, or against as in "we want to outlaw the Today's Sponge"? There are actually a lot of good reasons to avoid contraceptives, and so I don't think advising others to do so doesn't make one a zealot.

Sometimes, I cringe when I see or hear anti-homosexuality comments made in the context of other pro-life messages

Me, too. It makes the assumption that all pro-lifers hold the same religious or moral ideologies. Furthermore, it takes away from the purpose of saving lives. I don't think an unborn child who is about to be dismembered, when coming upon someone trying to save their lives would say, "Hey, wait! Are you for or against homosexuality?" Babies don't care! Any effort to save lives is appreciated, periphery viewpoints aside.

On that note, I haven't seen homosexuality discussed on this blog in an presumptuous way. In fact, I haven't seen it discussed as a moral issue AT ALL.

About a birth control stance: Contraception and abortion are linked. Especially considering that chemical contraceptives are abortives themselves. So this discussion will come up in abortion debates, always from the choice side, that "if we handed out the pill like m&ms abortions would cease." This forces us to address the abortion/contraception link, abortifacients and sexual morality.

Something that needs to be said: From a PR standpoint, pro-lifers focus on abortion, not the death penalty, not birth control- because we have 4400 children murdered each day. However, This is a pro-life blog. Therefore you can expect the comments to be less about political strategy and more about the values and ideolgies behind why the writer and readers are predominantly pro-life. Note that you won't find active campaigns against birth control from the pro-life movement- but you will find individuals who will articulate why it is immoral. You'll also find that there's not a movement to outlaw non-abortive BC- others sex lives are not our concern- only when a baby is killed do we feel obligated to intervene.

Hal- killing one's own children is the more irrational thing one can do. The Greeks even wrote plays about such things.

This is an opinion I can respect.

To claim that you, who paid someone to injure your wife (twice) and kill two of your children, are somehow the bastion of rationality is assanine or psychotic (perhaps a little of both). None of your clever potshots qualify as clever. They're simply juvenile, which you admit, for your intent is to annoy. You think our beliefs are crazy- as if you have authority to judge that.

I want take condascention from the murderer of two little people that you were charged to PROTECT and instead killed for reasons so petty you can't bear to mention them.

Your support for killing your own children is the most atrocious and unrespectable opinion there is- therefore your lack of respect for my moral beliefs is of no consequence to me. I have no respect for you.

jacque, I second the motion. Real men don't put their wives in danger, and they don't kill their children.

Pro-aborts are mentally and spiritually defective and become more and more so over time.

This should be expected.

PLUS pro-lifers are having pro-life children!

[well, marginally pro-life children anyways]

Pro-aborts are mentally and spiritually defective and become more and more so over time. This should be expected.

Zeke, when one's argument is as weak as yours, that kind of silliness is to be expected.
......

PLUS pro-lifers are having pro-life children! [well, marginally pro-life children anyways]

Some are, sure, and some aren't. Many a woman has an abortion where previously she would have said she is "pro-life," even "born-again" or "evangelistic" or "fundamentalist christian," etc. When a given person is actually in the situation, it may be clear that ending the pregnancy is for the best, despite what the prior opinion was.

Doug

So this discussion will come up in abortion debates, always from the choice side, that "if we handed out the pill like m&ms abortions would cease."

Actually, that's mostly a strawman from anti-contraception advocates. No thoughtful pro-contraception advocate, whether pro-life or pro-choice says, "if we handed out the pill like m&ms abortions would cease." We *do* say that contraception can be a part of responsible sexuality, should be available to anyone who is having sex, and can cut down on the abortion rate.

Note that you won't find active campaigns against birth control from the pro-life movement

I completely disagree, unless you're talking about campaigns to make it illegal. I see campaigns all the time to discourage people from using contraception, to keep kids from learning about it in sex ed, to claim that it doesn't work, to claim that it leads to abortion, etc.

And the sad thing is, the anti-contraception forces are a minority of pro-lifers, but they absolutely dominate the major pro-life organizations. Even groups like Democrats for Life and Feminists for Life have caved; they're not actively anti-contraception, they just won't talk about it at all.

"Note that you won't find active campaigns against birth control from the pro-life movement..."

"I completely disagree, unless you're talking about campaigns to make it illegal."

Well, yeah, that is what we're talking about. I see no push to make barrier (i.e. completely non-abortafacient) methods of contraception illegal. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to be a proponent of them, though. One can go without pointing fingers at friends who happen to use contraceptives, while still eschewing them oneself, and while being wary of the contraceptive mentality that equates a child with a venereal disease, and uses "nice" words ("responsible," "careful," "smart") for not having a baby, and "not-so-nice" words ("irresponsible," "careless," "mistake") for having one.