*sigh* Persecution complex FTL.

Walk in our shoes, Erin. No brag, just fact.

And I'm afraid to ask, but what's "FTL"?

"For the loss"

It's college web-speak, I picked it up form facebook. Similarly, FTW means 'for the win'

How frustrating! God bless them!

Bah, from*, rather.

And we know that this will make the news, right?

yeah, in your dreams.

I too am sooooo proud of them!

I love the name "Survivors."

I love it that these losers never faced impossible odds, dire conditions, or persecution of any kind yet bestowed victim status upon themselves.

Where I come from, we call those people "Whiners."

By the way, yesterday you were ready to lynch Planned Parenthood for un un-permitted banner display. Show "Survivors" (snicker) the same courtesy...

Jill, thanks very much for posting this.

Look, this is happening today. These citizens had their First Amendment Rights denied and trampled upon. I congratulate their courage in not backing down from the cowardly College Vice-President and the uninformed and liable local yokal police collaborators.

I hope they file a major lawsuit against the college and the Police Dept. They could contact the ACLJ or Thomas More Society for legal assistance and advice.

Will the MSM pick up this story? I doubt it. Even though they would defend our First Amendment rights, since this involves photos of aborted babies, they probably won't report it. It's up to the bloggers to transmit this story.
[Interesting that pornographers's 'rights' are defended to the hilt by the universities, liberals, the American Library Association, etc. Not so for simple young people wanting to peacefully display photos that are otherwise never seen of aborted babies.]
Are we living in a totalitarian regime?

Jill: the Survivors's blog pointed out something interesting from that article: who do the newspaper show in that photo? Just the males who were arrested. From my count, weren't two females arrested at least?

Laura, pardon me, but do you know what your problem is? You're stupid. (Not intended as a put-down, but as a judgement based on what you write.)

These young people have indeed survived being aborted in their mothers wombs -legally (as it were), which is what you promote. Survivor doesn't mean you had to go through dire conditions. It just means you survived a situation that might have taken your life.

They have every right to freedom of speech, whether or not you or anyone else likes their message, as long as it is not libelous. They were on public property showing photographs of the ugly truth of abortion.

The banner question is a completely different issue. If there is an ordinace requiring a permit, then PP should have obtained it from the city of Aurora. Just like they should have obtained a Special Use Permit, as the law requires.

Paul, pardon me, but you know what your problem is? You're a close-minded bigot. (Not intended as a put-down, but as a judgment based on what you write.)

You misspelled judgment. I fixed it in my post.

Insults are uncalled for and I believe against the posting guidelines. Thank you.

Paul

Are you a priest? I was just wondering because of other posts you've written.

Laura,

I think they call themselves survivors because during the time frame they were born in, 25%-30% of pregnancies have been aborted. Since they weren't, that makes them survivors so to speak. I think there is an actual psychological phenomenon called survivors guilt where people in similar situations to those who have died kind of think, wow that could have been me.

While there is no violence in the video, they are arrested and denied the first amendment rights just because people don't like what they are saying.

When I was involved in animal welfare demonstrations we called the police ahead of time and made sure we were on the same page, so we didn't end up arrested. Needless to say many people didn't want to see or hear what we were presenting.

We like they had the right to say it and show it nonetheless.

Survivor's guilt from not being aborted? You've got to be kidding me.

These young people have indeed survived being aborted in their mothers wombs -legally (as it were), which is what you promote. Survivor doesn't mean you had to go through dire conditions. It just means you survived a situation that might have taken your life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excuse me?

There are northward of 4 live births for every abortion in this country.

Maybe they could call themselves "The Way, Way Better Than 80% Secure With A Comfy Margin of Safety Club."

...Or maybe just stop whining.

Survivor doesn't mean you had to go through dire conditions. It just means you survived a situation that might have taken your life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like riding in a car?

I wonder how they campus cowards would respond if they had a display of different colored condems, or the beauty of homosexual sex or signs that said President Bush is a killer or the peacefulness of Islam...

I was born in '62.
The name "Survivors" reminds me of this years' Bucky Covington Country hit "A Different World":
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bucky Covington A Different World Lyrics

We were born to mothers who smoked and drank
Our cribs were covered in lead-based paint
No childproof lids
No seatbelts in cars
Rode bikes with no helmets
and still here we are
Still here we are

We got daddy's belt when we misbehaved
Had three TV channels you got up to change
No video games and no satellite
All we had were friends and they were outside
Playing outside

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

School always started the same everyday
the pledge of allegiance, then someone would pray
not every kid made the team when they tried
We got disappointed but that was alright
We turned out alright

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

No bottled water
We'd drink from a garden hose
And every Sunday,
All the stores were closed.

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

It was a different world

Jasper, you seem angry a lot lately.

Modern living got you down? Too much immorality out there? What's the matter, is everyone else having more fun than you? Holy cow, the strangest things get you worked up.

Yes Laura, like riding in a car.

A couple of times I have seen a horrible car accident in progress right in front of me on the freeway. And I really did think, wow it could have been me. I didn't feel any guilt of course, but whatever.

Laura, that is a great song! (Well lyrics, I haven't heard the song.) But I remember doing every single one of those things.

Laura, I was not insulting you. Your comments are at times, many times stupid, meaning they lack reason.

You are the whiner.

We'll abortion does make me angry, after seeing what abortion is. Yes. Hal, I believe some day, after abortion is illegal, we will look back and say to overselves, "how could we let this happen", like the nazi holocoust, slavery, etc. (It may not be in our lifetime, but our childrens)

But in general I'm not an angry person, not at all(we'll.. sometimes my job gets me angry.. but I've been doing it for twenty years...I need a change in direction).

Laura, that is a great song! (Well lyrics, I haven't heard the song.) But I remember doing every single one of those things.

Posted by: Kristen at October 3, 2007 3:35 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can remember riding in the front seat of cars, and how every mom could throw her right arm in front of the kids at any sudden stop.
It was kind of like an illegal "clothesline" in football.
My older sisters SWEAR that that's why they were flat-chested all through High School.

Posted by: Anonymous at October 3, 2007 3:08 PM


Are you a priest? I was just wondering because of other posts you've written.

Thanks for the compliment. No, I'm not a priest. But I have had philosophy and some Catholic theology.

Hi Paul.

"But I have had philosophy and some Catholic theology. "

Yeah, you definitely seem to know your stuff. You also seem very orthodox, which makes me believe you didn't learn philosophy and theology at a Catholic school, hehe. What school did you go to?

Oh, and God love you Paul!

I did the lyrics of that song by Bucky Covington "A Different World." It was a simpler time back then. But we are here and now. Contraception and legalized abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy have changed our world, our society. But morals are absolute. God's laws are absolute. Life is short, 'twill soon be past. Only what's done for Christ will last.

1st Commandment: Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your mind.

2nd Commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself.

And who is my neighbor? (Cf. Luke 10:25-37)

I can remember riding in the front seat of cars, and how every mom could throw her right arm in front of the kids at any sudden stop.
It was kind of like an illegal "clothesline" in football.
My older sisters SWEAR that that's why they were flat-chested all through High School.

Posted by: Laura at October 3, 2007 3:40 PM

Every summer we drove out to Massachusetts in the family truckster. Big silver station wagon with the seats down so we (the 4 girls) could lay in the back while my younger brother sat between my parents in the front - no car seat, no seat belt. We'd slide all over the back cargo area and thought it was the best!

My brother is 9 years younger than me and when I was driving him somewhere I did that "clothesline" to him when someone ran a stop sign. I yell "S#*T!" and then looked at him. He raised his hands and said "I didn't hear a thing." Ah, good memories...

Contraception and legalized abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy have changed our world, our society.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope.
Folks are folks, and human beings haven't changed since time immemorial.
A favorite quote:

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers. What will become of them? This world is truly coming to an end.

- Socrates, 470-399 B.C.

Bobby, among other institutions of 'higher learning', Mount St. Mary's University for a while. And God love you, too.

God love Laura, too!

Socrates notwithstanding, kids will be kids, no matter what millenium. But even if you are pro-choice, you must admit that abortions have increased to an incredible number since it was legalized in 1973.

God love Laura, amen!

Paul, can I ask how old you are? I'm curious because it seems like younger men now-a-days are more orthodox than older men. Did you ever read the book "Good-bye Good Men?" Excellent book and it highlights what was taught to men in seminary during the 60's and 70's. I'm wondering if you are before or after that generation. Or orthodox in spite of being part of it.

Wait, how old are you Kristen?

My brother is 9 years younger than me and when I was driving him somewhere I did that "clothesline" to him when someone ran a stop sign. I yell "S#*T!" and then looked at him. He raised his hands and said "I didn't hear a thing." Ah, good memories...

Posted by: Kristen at October 3, 2007 3:55 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OH, THE VIOLENCE AND PROFANITY!
We should probably make huge banners documenting the suffering and embrace how lucky we are to have SURVIVED! Then let's get a pizza.

Hmmm, not really sure why I told you to wait...

35.

Kristen, I haven't read Goodbye Good Men, but I know the jist of it. Let's just say I'm sort of in-between. But being part of one generation or the next doesn't necessarily correlate to being orthodox in regards to one's Catholic faith. That is a matter of God's grace and our cooperating with it. Thanks be to God. And I can't help this, but, God love you, Kristen!

(Bobby made me do it.)

In my 3:52 pm post, I meant to write:

"I dig the lyrics of that song..."

...and Bishop Sheen makes me do it!

Laura,

Honestly, why do you spend your time berating pro-lifers on a pro-life blog site? Don't you have better things to do?

"But being part of one generation or the next doesn't necessarily correlate to being orthodox in regards to one's Catholic faith."

While this is true, I can only imagine how hard it would have been to stay Catholic in the 60s and 70s, growing up during and after the sexual revolt and having to deal with a changing culture, the "spirit of Vatican II," the music of Marty Haugen and David Haas (I guess we're still living through that). But I think the worst is over as JPII talks about, there is this "springtime" that is going around, renewing the faith and all. I have lots of reasons to be optimistic. God love you.

Matthew- I'd assume she's like me and thrives on debate. It would be a really, really, phenomenally boring world if all we did was reaffirm each other's beliefs all day.

Erin,

Thanks for responding. I am like you. I thrive on debate. But from what I can tell, what she is doing is not debating. All she has engaged in is hyperbole and name-calling. Both Paul and you have skirted the name-calling line as well. A little decorum goes a long way.

"But being part of one generation or the next doesn't necessarily correlate to being orthodox in regards to one's Catholic faith."

My dad went to Quigley South Seminary in Chicago for high school. He didn't like any of the changes of Vatican II. He searched all over our town for a church that still used the communion rail to receive communion, never shook peoples hands at the sign of peach, always knelt at the last blessing, etc... (I don't know if these things were done before VII but that's how he was and he always said that VII diluted the Faith.)

He didn't become a priest (obviously) but his best friend did. When "Father Pat" would come over they would sit at the table and speak Latin. The one reason I took Latin in high school was to figure out what they were saying... Unfortunately all I can remember is In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti...

Bobby,

How old are you?

I grew up in those 60's and 70's and still remember wearing a veil in church and kneeling at the altar rail to receive communion.

The whole school went to First Friday mass, and the whole family went to Stations on Good Friday.

Then the bottom fell out and the guitars and Peter, Paul and Mary entered the church. Out went the veils and in came the mini-skirts. These days you're lucky if there are kneelers, let alone a communion rail.

That ad I showed you for the folsom street fair would never have been allowed, because no reputable printer would have printed it.

But you're right...things seem to be coming full circle. I now go to Eucharistic Adoration weekly, say a daily rosary, and even have a select group of friends that I do an occasional novena with *wink,wink*...

Of course there is still a lot of work to be done.
Do you ever go to RomanCatholicBlog...Have you seen what is going on out in California? The Barney/Halloween mass where Eucharist Ministers gave out communion dressed as witches and devils? Or the bishop who yanked a woman to her feet because she insisted on kneeling to receive communion? Crazy stuff...

And yet, the Latin Mass has been brought back. So I guess there is always hope...

Matthew- in such an emotionally charged debate, there's going to be a lot of line-skirting from everyone. Decorum isn't really what we're about, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that Jill is about providing an open forum for discussion between real world people- we're not politicians, we're not running for office, we're students and parents and employees just looking for a place to discuss our views.

"When "Father Pat" would come over they would sit at the table and speak Latin"

YES! That is soooo cool! I'm so sick of the vernacular at mass...

MK - I agree. I grew up in a very orthodox home. Dad in seminary, two aunts in a cloistered convent, an uncle... I remember wearing a veil to vespers. All of us made our First Holy Communion at the priory.

But it kills me when I see people in church. How they are dressed, how they act. So many churches have the tabernacle in a chapel now but people walk in and out without the slightest notice. No one kneels at the consecration, Communion in 2nd grade but Confession in 3rd. I laugh at their reasoning, "A 2nd grader isn't capable of knowing their sins." No but they're capable of understanding that the wine and host are the true body and blood of Christ.

A member of a people group targeted for extermination who was spared that fate has every right to be called a survivor. Since Hitler's intention was to eliminate all Jews, then any Jew living since then qualifies as a survivor.

Roe v. Wade & Doe v. Bolton legalized killing innocent people based on their age/phase of development and place of residence. How many of them? As many as possible; so all of them were at risk, as members of a deliberatly targeted sector of society. Yes, the survivors are just that.

Car rides don't, generally, deliberately kill people unless the car is driven by an Al Quaeda member on a "mission", then that is different, but under normal circumstances, deaths from car wrecks are called accidents because they are unintended. Induced abortion INTENDS to kill an innocent human being.

A society guilty of a holocaust (the deliberate, systematic, widespread destruction of a people group deemed "expendable" by the holocaust perps and their sympathizers) will naturally try to suppress graphic evidence of their atrocities.

The Third Reich was characteristically strenuous in their efforts to suppress any graphic evidence of their genocidal handiwork, as William Brennan points out in his excellent book, “The Abortion Holocaust, Today’s Final Solution”:

“The Nazis issued special communiqués to prevent soldiers, the media, or anyone from taking and distributing pictures of the exterminated victims. “To every normal person,” read one such order, “it is a matter of course that he does not take photographs of such disgusting excesses.”

It's hardly surprising that in America, where the body count of our abortion holocaust has long since dwarfed that of the Third Reich, there will be efforts to suppress/discredit graphic evidence of our bloodguilt, especially by those who most enthusiastically support it.
(Will those redfanged predators ever stop whining just because some of their quarry escaped, and is shining the light of truth on their slaughter in order that more may be spared?)

Speaking of public exhibits, what a perverse set of priorities are exhibited by those who seek to suppress graphic evidence of the deliberate, systematic and widespread slaughter of children in the womb in that they take greater umbrage at the exposure of this bloodbath than at its perpetration. Plus ca change...

IF SOMETHING IS SO HORRIFIC THAT WE CAN'T STAND TO LOOK AT IT, THEN PERHAPS ITS TIME WE STOPPED DENYING, RATIONALIZING, JUSTIFYING, AND TOLERATING IT.

Posted by: Kristen at October 3, 2007 4:40 PM

Unfortunately all I can remember is In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti...

That's a good start. If you're interested, there are Latin classes offered in Chicago at St. John Cantius parish and to be offered in Naperville at Ss. Peter and Paul. (I am not a Latin student, but I know a little and can sing and pronounce it well.)

Hey Mary.

"How old are you?"

I'm 26.

"I grew up in those 60's and 70's and still remember wearing a veil in church and kneeling at the altar rail to receive communion."

Oh, I've been meaning to ask someone about this. When you were growing up, at what age did you start to wear a veil? I like them, and I'd like to get my daughter to start wearing them once she's born.

"even have a select group of friends that I do an occasional novena with *wink,wink*..."

Oh yeah! :)

"The Barney/Halloween mass where Eucharist Ministers gave out communion dressed as witches and devils?"

Oh MK, check this page out. It's a splinter "Catholic" group, but this collection that they have of ALL the liturgical abuses is huge. Very funny, yet very sad. Yet funny. There is a Tridintine Mass being offered about 40 minutes from where I live starting this Saturday, actually. I'm pretty excited. I might go to it every once in a while. It is so beautiful, and there is such reverence for Christ in the Eucharist. Actually, to be honest, I just want to go to a mass where people don't start yapping the second the recessional hymn ends.

But I must imagine the whole change must have been really hard for you. It was hard on my parents as well. But things are looking up again. Much hope. God love you MK.

That's a good start. If you're interested, there are Latin classes offered in Chicago at St. John Cantius parish and to be offered in Naperville at Ss. Peter and Paul. (I am not a Latin student, but I know a little and can sing and pronounce it well.)

Posted by: Paul at October 3, 2007 5:00 PM

Are you kidding!!! I just started attending Sts. Peter and Paul! When will they start? I had heard they were going to do a Tridentine Mass but haven't seen anything yet.

Posted by: Kristen at October 3, 2007 4:54 PM

Kristen, may I suggest to you to find a church that offers the extraordinary form of the Latin rite, (aka the Traditional Latin Mass), and you will avoid all those abuses you mentioned. If you are in the Chicago area there are already some well-established opportunities to attend the Latin Mass weekly if not daily and there are more and more churches beginning to offer the Latin Mass on at least an occasional bases. St. John Cantius, the Shrine of Christ the King, St. Thomas More, St. Peter in Volo, all have at least Sunday Latin Masses, and there are more to come. Also check out http://www.ecclesiadei.org/ for a list of Latin Masses. (It may not be complete, but its a start.)

Flynn,

Great Post...

Bobby,

I think she can wear a veil or hat whenever you want her to. I don't remember an actual "moment" when mom put one one me. Just remember wearing it!

Kristen, someone will begin teaching Latin at SS. Peter and Paul in the near future. Call the parish office for details, and God love you, again! Oremus pro invicem!

Bobby - I just looked at that list. Terrible. I still receive Communion only by mouth. Old habits die hard and all... Anyway I've had Eucharist ministers wait for me to put up my hand for the host. I just tell them I will not receive by hand and I've had people roll their eyes at me. Whatever.

PJII (I heard) would not give a host to anyone unless it was by mouth. I figured that if he was doing that I wasn't going to take it any other way.

Roe v. Wade & Doe v. Bolton legalized killing innocent people based on their age/phase of development and place of residence. How many of them? As many as possible; so all of them were at risk, as members of a deliberatly targeted sector of society. Yes, the survivors are just that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, you ARE a shrieky little drama queen.

No one has ever suggested wiping out all fetuses, not even "as many as possible."

There is no fetal genocide.

You look foolish when you've done nothing but wallow in comfort and privledge and THEN declare yourself a "survivor." Victim status is not earned by whining. It's earned by enduring real-life hardship, oppression or trauma.

Hey Kristen. Yeah, it is almost inconceivable that that kind of thing is happening at a mass. Didn't these priests spend 7 years in seminary and devote their entire lives to God? And they STILL insist of wearing a styrofoam cheese head while performing the consecration? I'm glad I've never been to a mass where something like that happens.. I don't know what I'd do.

"Anyway I've had Eucharist ministers wait for me to put up my hand for the host."

I learned to avoid this situation all together and always get into the line that goes to the priest. It takes some planning ahead, and sometimes you have to sneak into another line, but I mean, come on, most of the time the extra ordinary ministers of communion shouldn't even be there. That's why they're EXTRA ordinary. God love you.

IF SOMETHING IS SO HORRIFIC THAT WE CAN'T STAND TO LOOK AT IT, THEN PERHAPS ITS TIME WE STOPPED DENYING, RATIONALIZING, JUSTIFYING, AND TOLERATING IT.
Posted by: flynn at October 3, 2007 4:59 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What? Mismatched synthetic plaids? Black socks with sandals? White shoes after labor day? Low-rise jeans with thong panties?

Laura,

Do you realize how long some of us have waited for low rise pants to come back!

Laura,

Do you realize how long some of us have waited for low rise pants to come back!

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 5:38 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
My hips are too soft and my legs are too short.
I get a muffin-top perched on stumps...

Laura wrote,

Nope.
Folks are folks, and human beings haven't changed since time immemorial.
A favorite quote:

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers. What will become of them? This world is truly coming to an end.

- Socrates, 470-399 B.C.

Posted by: Laura at October 3, 2007 3:57 PM

I can tell you from teaching immigrants English, people in other cultures have vastly different values. Gobbling food notwithstanding.

I remember once teaching high school English as Second Language class. The students wrote about the themes in Romeo and Juliet and while half got what I was teaching from the book about the tragedy of continuing the family feud, a full half of the class wrote that since they disobeyed their parents, they deserved to die.

Laura, one third of them were killed. I'd say that they were survivors.

YOU may think that killing off a third of somebody's generation is a trivial thing, and that having a third of your siblings and classmates killed is trivial, but these young folks are right. They're survivors. It's sheer dumb freaking luck that they were concieved to parents who had a capactity to love their children in the face of a society telling them children are vermin.

Laura, your callous disregard for human life comes shining through. "So? Only one in four of their age mates were killed. They had really good odds of coming out alive!"

These kids had siblings killed. PUT TO DEATH by their own parents. And you trivialize it.

I think it's great that the young people are standing up and telling their parents' generation, "It was WRONG to treat our brothers and sisters like garbage, and we're not going to allow the next generation to be treated that way."

Wow, that was great that they got the video! It just goes to show how often the truth gets skewed in the news stories. We need more people to be ready with the video evidence!

You misspelled judgment. I fixed it in my post.

Posted by: Erin at October 3, 2007 3:08 PM

Actually, both spellings of judgement/judgment are correct...just another freaky thing about the English language...

Paul-

These young people have indeed survived being aborted in their mothers wombs -legally (as it were), which is what you promote. Survivor doesn't mean you had to go through dire conditions. It just means you survived a situation that might have taken your life.
............................
Absolutely ridiculous. What's next? Miscarriage survivors because the woman managed to complete gestation when there was never any question that she legally could?

Laura,

I think they call themselves survivors because during the time frame they were born in, 25%-30% of pregnancies have been aborted. Since they weren't, that makes them survivors so to speak. I think there is an actual psychological phenomenon called survivors guilt where people in similar situations to those who have died kind of think, wow that could have been me.

While there is no violence in the video, they are arrested and denied the first amendment rights just because people don't like what they are saying.

When I was involved in animal welfare demonstrations we called the police ahead of time and made sure we were on the same page, so we didn't end up arrested. Needless to say many people didn't want to see or hear what we were presenting.

We like they had the right to say it and show it nonetheless.

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 3:11 PM

...............................
Okey Dokey. I'm sure that there are scads of 50 something men that have survivors guilt for not being drafted and sent to Nam. Not.

Yes Laura, like riding in a car.

A couple of times I have seen a horrible car accident in progress right in front of me on the freeway. And I really did think, wow it could have been me. I didn't feel any guilt of course, but whatever.

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 3:31 PM
.......................................
Doesn't make you a car crash survivor now does it. You'd actually have to be involved in a car crash to claim survival of one now wouldn't you.

I was born in '62.
The name "Survivors" reminds me of this years' Bucky Covington Country hit "A Different World":
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bucky Covington A Different World Lyrics

We were born to mothers who smoked and drank
Our cribs were covered in lead-based paint
No childproof lids
No seatbelts in cars
Rode bikes with no helmets
and still here we are
Still here we are

We got daddy's belt when we misbehaved
Had three TV channels you got up to change
No video games and no satellite
All we had were friends and they were outside
Playing outside

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

School always started the same everyday
the pledge of allegiance, then someone would pray
not every kid made the team when they tried
We got disappointed but that was alright
We turned out alright

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

No bottled water
We'd drink from a garden hose
And every Sunday,
All the stores were closed.

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world

It was a different world

Posted by: Laura at October 3, 2007 3:29 PM
.....................................................

I started school in '62. There was no prayer in school. 'Under God' had recently been added to the pledge and some classmates were excused from the recitation for religous reasons.

Matthew- in such an emotionally charged debate, there's going to be a lot of line-skirting from everyone. Decorum isn't really what we're about, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that Jill is about providing an open forum for discussion between real world people- we're not politicians, we're not running for office, we're students and parents and employees just looking for a place to discuss our views.

Posted by: Erin at October 3, 2007 4:46 PM
.......................................................
Very nicely put. What happened to the day when exchange of opinion was an art form, heartily encouraged and never used to bludgeon fellow humans? Oh that's right. Never. In this infantile country.

Roe v. Wade stripped legal protection from all the unborn; therefore none of them are legally protected from being murdered in utero, therefore all of them are in danger... but it doesn't have to be spelled out like that for an intelligent person to grasp the entailments of it.

From your posts, you definitely have no room to call anyone else shrieky, little, or drama queens!

Who else but an out-of-touch-with-reality, sick, shrieky little drama queen would even think of comparing the carnage of millions of slaughtered children with mismatched plaids? Of course you will trivialize the seriousness of the bloodbath you support; it's so easy to be pro-"choice" when you aren't the one getting killed, isn't it?

Of course you will trivialize the seriousness of the bloodbath you support; it's so easy to be pro-"choice" when you aren't the one getting killed, isn't it?

Posted by: flynn at October 3, 2007 8:42 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey flynn- you weren't killed either. You must be pro-choice!
Hey, I thought of a song for you, too:
Billy Joel, "Angry Young Man":
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Theres a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl,
Hes always at home with his back to the wall.
And hes proud of his scars and the battles hes lost,
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on his cross-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Give a moment or two to the angry young man,
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand.
Hes been stabbed in the back, hes been misunderstood,
Its a comfort to know his intentions are good.
And he sits in a room with a lock on the door,
With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

I believe Ive passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage
I found that just surviving was a noble fight.
I once believed in causes too,
I had my pointless point of view,
And life went on no matter who was wrong or right.

And theres always a place for the angry young man,
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand.
And hes never been able to learn from mistakes,
So he cant understand why his heart always breaks.
But his honor is pure and his courage as well,
And hes fair and hes true and hes boring as hell-
And hell go to the grave as an angry old man.

I think it's great that the young people are standing up and telling their parents' generation, "It was WRONG to treat our brothers and sisters like garbage, and we're not going to allow the next generation to be treated that way."

Posted by: Christina at October 3, 2007 6:19 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Young people who disagree with their parents?

ALERT THE MEDIA! NOTHING LIKE THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED BEFORE!

Sure, Laura, you'll go on thinking of songs and other impudent, impertinent non sequiturs to avoid facing the reality of the slaughter of innocent children that you support. Justlike two year olds who put their hands over their own eyes and then declare that no one can see them. If anyone contradicts them, they sometimes start singing stupid, mean-spirited little songs to drown out the truth.

Being alive doesn't make a person necessarily pro-abortion (falsely called "choice" by cowards who don't want the horror of childslaughter exposed).
But it is hypocritical for you to wish something on others that you would not want done to you. Especially in the name of "choice"; babies don't choose abortion, they resist it. The evidence is at silentscream.org and elsewhere...as if someone like yourself, who equates mass slaughter with poor taste in fashion will give a merry damn about a trifling thing like evidence.

Grow up; the sheer novelty of the experience should give your life just the boost of positive energy you seem bereft of in your posts.

If anyone contradicts them, they sometimes start singing stupid, mean-spirited little songs to drown out the truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That song WAS pretty mean. (tee hee...)

I only sang it to drown out your whining.
My eardrums were statring to bleed.

Sally,

The use of the word survivor is really no big deal.
You see the wording, "survived by his wife, children, grandchildren" "Surviving heirs"

It does not imply they endured some ordeal, just that they are living.

It is just a way to say still living vs. those dead.

"Surviving heirs"

Use of the term 'survivor's guilt', though, is, hippie.

Erin,

I didn't come up with the idea of survivors guilt. I am just repeating it. I have heard a guy talk about how a friend died of AIDS and how he felt so bad because he knew himself to be the one with the risky lifestyle and yet his friend was the one who died and it was very emotional for him. There are people who empathize, perhaps overly so, and do wonder why it happened to someone else.

I don't think it is typical, but that doesn't make it fake.

It's a diagnosable symptom of PTSD. I get touchy about PTSD. 'Survivor's guilt' is particular. General guilt is generally a symptom of depression and allied diseases, completely different mental conditions.

Sally,
...............................
Okey Dokey. I'm sure that there are scads of 50 something men that have survivors guilt for not being drafted and sent to Nam. Not.

Posted by: Sally at October 3, 2007 7:27 PM
`````````````````
Well, I do know scads of men in this age group and they appreciate very clearly what it meant to survive that call up.
Those that lost friends are very emotional about the friends they lost. Logically they know why it wasn't them, but not emotionally. I think their feeings are valid even if they are not rational. Everyone has a right to their feelings.

Posted by: Sally at October 3, 2007 7:25 PM

Absolutely ridiculous. What's next? Miscarriage survivors because the woman managed to complete gestation when there was never any question that she legally could?

Miscarriage is another word for spontaneous abortion. This is normally a natural occurrence. An induced abortion is the one we usually mean when we use the word abortion.

It is perfectly possible for let's say one of a set of twins to die in utero and the other to SURVIVE.

In fact, there are cases of one of a set of twins that survived an induced abortion.

In fact there was a news story very recently about just such a case. The mother had twins, but one had, I think Down's Syndrome. She wanted that child killed. The doctors performed the abortion, killing one of the twins. Only problem, they killed the "normal" baby. The Down's Syndrome baby was the SURVIVOR!

One thing I feel fairly sure of, is that this child probably WON'T have the survivor's guilt syndrome you so terribly despise. It will only have Down's Syndrome. Down's Syndrome children and adults are God's special people. They are always loving and accepting, simple and unique.

God love them and you, Sally!

I'm confused.

I always thought college campuses are public properties, but the Vice-President (or President, Chancellor, whatever, the people of authority) has the power to order off anyone they want.

The thing is, public schools are public property as well, yet the teachers and principals/authority people have the right to order off anyone who is off the campus. Why is it different for a college campus?

Stephanie, in primary schools and secondary schools the students are children, not adults. They need to be protected from outsiders. They are not public forums for debate, as are universities. Adults don't need to be protected from peaceful free speech. I am absolutely certain that these college students, the Survivors of the abortion holocaust, were very respectful of others on campus and only came in peace and love to make their statement and show the graphic photos of abortion.

This of course, would not be appropriate at a public school. Unless of course, the parents wanted it and only those students whose parents wanted it were allowed to attend. But that is not the point.

The point is that these adult citizens had their First Amendment Rights denied them by a tax-payer supported, public institution of higher learning. Boy do they have a good case for a law suit.

These people are survivors of abortion like I'm a survivor of polio and juvenile diabetes. If they came from pro life parents, what odds did they really have of being aborted?

These people are survivors of abortion like I'm a survivor of polio and juvenile diabetes. If they came from pro life parents, what odds did they really have of being aborted?

Jk, the odds are probably pretty high. Just because one is pro-life NOW doesn't necessarily mean they always were. I think that my mom considered abortion (she mentioned something once- she is pro-life now though), Jasper said that his mother had considered abortion. There are many pro-life people who's parents considered abortion and for some reason decided to keep them.

JKeller,

You might feel differently if you brother or sister had actually contracted polio and were now crippled while you somehow avoided the disease and were untouched by it.

You would have survived and might feel guilt every time you looked at your sibling hunched over...

I've told the story of how my birth mother kept me while the mistress of my father aborted her baby.

Which means I too am a survivor. Came "this" close! I can't say I lose sleep over it, but that's because until three years ago, I'd never met these people, but it does bother me. I have a brother or sister somewhere that was killed the same year I was born...creepy feeling to say the least.

"my eardrums were starting to bleed"
-------------------------------------------

sounds like a whine and a lie to me! surely you went straight to the E.R. about this (ha, ha. didn't anyone ever tell you the story about the little girl that cried "wolf"?

I hope they sue. They weren't harming anyone. They were doing the Lord's work.

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

sometimes where you stand depends on where you sit

"Remember When" - Alan jackson

Remember when
I was young and so were you
and time stood still and love was all we knew
You were the first, so was I
We made love and then you cried
Remember when

Remember when
we vowed the vows
and walked the walk
Gave our hearts, made the start, it was hard
We lived and learned, life threw curves
There was joy, there was hurt
Remember when

Remember when
old ones died and new were born
And life was changed, disassembled, rearranged
We came together, fell apart
And broke each other's hearts
Remember when

Remember when
the sound of little feet
was the music
We danced to week to week
Brought back the love, we found trust
Vowed we'd never give it up
Remember when

Remember when
thirty seemed so old
Now lookn' back it's just a steppin' stone
To where we are,
Where we've been
Said we'd do it all again
Remember when

Remember when
we said when we turned gray
When the children grow up and move away
We won't be sad, we'll be glad
For all the life we've had
And we'll remember when

Doug, you sound pro life to me.

Kelli, I'm all for women being free, as they are now, to make their own best choice in the matter.

I sure do like that song, though.

Doug

Doug, good song. Come on over to the PL side. We could use you.

Doug, good song. Come on over to the PL side. We could use you.

Kelli, just the first few mandolin notes can get my tear glands working.

The abortion debate is a great argument, one that takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all make.

I know that many people feel the unborn lives are sacred, that they should be saved, etc., but when I look at a pregnant woman with an unwanted pregnancy, I ask, "Is that a good enough reason for her not to be able to choose"? Gotta say no.

Doug

Sally,

The use of the word survivor is really no big deal.
You see the wording, "survived by his wife, children, grandchildren" "Surviving heirs"

It does not imply they endured some ordeal, just that they are living.

It is just a way to say still living vs. those dead.

"Surviving heirs"

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 9:48 PM
................................

That's quite shallow hippie. Surviving the death of a loved one includes suffering. Sometimes to a debilitating extent.
It is riduclously insulting to those that have experienced death, for these drama freaks to pretend they were ever in danger of not being born due to their mother's ability to legally access abortion. The whole premise is foolish. They could more easily rail against 'god' for murdering all their possible siblings.

Laura,

Do you realize how long some of us have waited for low rise pants to come back!

Posted by: hippie at October 3, 2007 5:38 PM

................................................

And now they are on there way back out. Glory while you can/