by moderator Jacqueline

A mother in Grand Rapids, Michigan, just gave birth to triplets. This would not be news at all, if this woman weren't homeless and living in a shelter.

From the Grand Rapids Press:

Monica Roberts will admit she has made mistakes. And she figures that in her lifetime, she probably will make more.

Just don't hold it against her three newborns - triplets born last month to a woman who is broke, homeless and uncertain of her future and that of the tiny bundles she refused to abort or give up for adoption.

In true point/counter-point fashion, I can easily see both sides of the abortion debate berating this woman. I can hear a chorus of pro-aborts screeching she had no right to bring 3 babies into this world when she can't even take care of herself. I can also hear the still, quiet voices of pro-lifers thinking she should have placed her babies for adoption, as she has no means to care for them.

I disagree with both. I'm PRO-LIFE, I'm not pro-adoption....

Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-adoption, either. I just don't look at adoption as a magical solution that makes everything alright. Rather, I see adoption as the best choice when other good choices do not exist. Adoption is always a sign something is wrong.

Children are intended to be cared for by their parents. If the parents are unable to care for the child due to age, unfitness, illness, poverty, or death - something is wrong. If parents can choose to care for their children and instead choose not to, something is wrong.

I anticipate a virtually flogging for this because I believe that many pro-lifers have their heads in the sand in this regard. After all, adoption is the loving option. Our signs and stickers declare it. But even when adoption is the best solution in a given situation, it is never without pain for almost everyone involved.

Having worked with both birthmothers and adoptive parents, I see the pain the birthmothers face in grieving the loss of their baby. I worked solely in open adoptions, but even in those cases the birthmothers regret lost motherhood. The children struggle with understanding why their birthmothers chose to place and why their fathers didn't seem to care much at all.

There are identity and abandonment issues as well. Even the adoptive parents struggle with the pain of infertility and inadequacy. Adoption is often a happy ending, but it's not without its price. Every adoption involves at least one broken heart.

Abortion is often a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It is our duty as pro-lifers to ensure that adoption doesn't become the same. I have worked with many birthmothers that placed due to situational issues like finances, only to end up stable a few years later and regret having permanently relinquished their children.

I believe it's in the best interests of the children to be with their biological parents, and it's our obligation to come along side those parents and help meet their needs. After all, there are always going to be people with more money, more prestige, more power - but babies aren't sold to the highest bidder.

While I have the ultimate respect for birthmothers and the noble sacrifices they make for their children, I think it's important to emphasize the role of biological parents in a child's life and the emotional pain both the birthmothers and adoptees endure when a child is relinquished. By placing for adoption you might be giving your child a two-parent home, a bigger house and a seemingly better life, but who would have traded their parents for an easier childhood?

I commend the faith of this woman. While she is homeless right now, she will not always be homeless. However, had she aborted, her babies would always be dead.

Even so, had she placed for adoption, her babies would always be with another family. While societal norms pressure people like her to abort or place for adoption, I admire her thumbing her nose at both.

[HT for triplets story: Jivin Jehoshaphat; photo credit: Grand Rapids Press]

Jill many of us are a disaster away from being homeless. The woman is employable. She'll get back on her feet. I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

What beautiful babies.

Many will say she has nothing to give them.

She gave them their lives.

Well said, Sally.

Additional details about the visit will be made known as soon as they are finalized, meanwhile, if you wish to contact the Papal Visit Office, please call:
212-371-1011 Ext. 7673

http://www.archny.org/news-events/news-press-releases/index.cfm?i=6312

I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

Many would. Many see it as a duty in such situations, like abortion.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

Jacqueline, great post. I agree with you.

I understand where Jill is coming from with this one. We don't want anyone to feel coerced into adoption, and people usually do come to adoption through grief--of infertility and placing a child. But a the same time, adoption is a brave choice that can be positive for everyone. What am I going to tell my daughter, that her birthmom "copped-out" on raising her by "giving her away" (more positive language: "making an adoption plan" "placing for adoption")? No. I'll tell her what firmly believe, her birthmom loved her enough to seek out the family she wished for her to have. She waited two weeks after our baby girl was born, until she was sure she had found the right placement. A single mom already (of a teenage boy) my daughter's birthmom was able to finish college, find a full-time career, and buy a house in the short two years since placing our daughter. When she placed, she was between jobs and on welfare and was at times drinking to excess to suppress her problems. She felt that parenting two children as a single mom, she would stay that way. I know she grieves for the might-have-been, but she made an informed decision to help herself, her son, and our baby girl. And she has told me of her joy in knowing that our baby girl is happy and loved.

I don't mean to say that the mother of triplets in this story should place for adoption. You can't tell another person what their limitations are or what to do with her children, and this mom seems to have the resolve to make this work. I just have to defend adoption. It's been a blessing.

I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

Many would. Many see it as a duty in such situations, like abortion.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 5:15 P
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I certainly hope that enough money can be raised to give her and her new family the start they deserve. I most certainly would abort rather than gestate knowing full well I was going to hand the possible infant off like an unwanted puppy.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

I think we tend to knee-jerk suggest adoption because so much prochoice rhetoric is about how a baby is the most horrible thing than can happen to a woman, that it will totally ruin her life, yada yada yada. So we respond with a "Then let her give the baby to somebody who doesn't think it's vermin."

We have allowed ourselves to get sucked into the "Women abort because babies ruin your life" rhetoric, instead of responding with takes of victorious mothers who overcame.

Sally

Wow. I don't know what to say to that. You just called my daughter an "unwanted puppy." You just compared my daughter's birthmom, a person a respect very much who made the ultimate selfless decision, to a heartless dog owner. You just sought to deliberately invalidate my family. I'm speechless.

EH

I most certainly would abort rather than gestate knowing full well I was going to hand the possible infant off like an unwanted puppy.

Parents make plans in their wills for who would care for their children if they died. They take great care to make sure that somebody would properly look after them. A mother who realistically assesses that she can not provide a baby with what the child needs, and makes arrangements for the child to get that elsewhere, is behaving the same way as a partent who makes such plans in their will. "I can't be there. I'll make sure somebody CAN."

Making an adoption plan isn't like sitting in front of a Wal Mart with the kid in a cradboard box with "Free to good home" written on it in crayon.

I agree it ought not to be used as a permanent solution to a temporary problem -- unemployment or some other rough spot -- but a woman with serious treatment-resistent mental health issues, or who has committed crimes for which she's likely to be incarcerated throughout the baby's childhood, or who has chronic drug or alcohol problems, probably would do well to make an adoption plan.

EH,
That's Sally for you...don't let her upset you...if you look at previous posts on other articles, you'll see what I mean.

I am so happy for you and your daughter! What an absloute blessing she must be for you and this world!!!! God bless her birthmom!!!

Hi Jacque,

this is a real tuffy for Christians ... because in Jesus are we not all 'adopted children of God'? rather than looking only at modern adoption in Western cultures, perhaps we should understand that the huge majority of adopted children were the result of a woman dying in birthing and the Father being unable to raise a family alone.

Personally, I think anything is better than murdering a child! If adoption is the "magical solution" compared to abortion, then bring on adoption! I really don't know what parts of the article I want to pick apart and contest, because I don't know where to start. However, I really haven't given it much thought until I read it, so maybe I'll let it sink in for a while...

Sally

Wow. I don't know what to say to that. You just called my daughter an "unwanted puppy." You just compared my daughter's birthmom, a person a respect very much who made the ultimate selfless decision, to a heartless dog owner. You just sought to deliberately invalidate my family. I'm speechless.

EH

Posted by: EH at November 14, 2007 6:00 PM
................................

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

"I believe it's in the best interests of the children to be with their biological parents, and it's our obligation to come along side those parents and help meet their needs. After all, there are always going to be people with more money, more prestige, more power - but babies aren't sold to the highest bidder."

Can I ask a question? What about people like my cousin who can't have children? Her and her husband plan to adopt in the future. Are they just SOL because "children should stay with their birth parents" I know a couple who became pregnant before they were married, they thought the best choice for everyone was to give the child up for adoption. A few years later they got married and currently have four other children. they have reconnected with her daughter (when the daughter turned 18). When i asked the mother if she regretted her decision she said that she did not.

Personally, I think anything is better than murdering a child! If adoption is the "magical solution" compared to abortion, then bring on adoption! I really don't know what parts of the article I want to pick apart and contest, because I don't know where to start. However, I really haven't given it much thought until I read it, so maybe I'll let it sink in for a while...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:14 PM
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Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:16 PM

No, you said you would rather abort. How the heck would you know how you would feel..you would kill the child before any feeling raced through your ice cold heart.

Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM

Nice try, Sally.

I can't really say I agree that children should be raised by their birth parents in some cases.

I think a good option would be using "open adoption" so that the birth mother may still have contact with her child(ren) in the future but have the primary care of the child(ren) be done by the adoptive parents. This may ease any guilt of "dumping" their child some birth women may have.

I've heard many, many good things that have come from open adoptions as opposed to closed adoptions.

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:16 PM

No, you said you would rather abort. How the heck would you know how you would feel..you would kill the child before any feeling raced through your ice cold heart.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM
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I've been a mother for over 30 years Laura. I would have never given my children away. I would abort an unwanted pregnancy rather than pawn my responsibility off onto another. Actually, I would have liked more children.

Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM

Nice try, Sally.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:30 PM
........................................

Try at what Laura?

Rae,
"I can't really say I agree that children should be raised by their birth parents in some cases"

Yikes! agreed! That's another can of worms tho...

I can hear a chorus of pro-aborts screeching she had no right to bring 3 babies into this world when she can't even take care of herself. I can also hear the still, quiet voices of pro-lifers thinking she should have placed her babies for adoption, as she has no means to care for them.

Perhaps, Jill, but Pro-Choicers are for herchoice.

My bad, Sally..it just seems from your posts that abortion is always the best answer you can give, and any pro-life or anti-abortion comment is argued by you. For what it's worth, I apologize.

Hey, If you can't have more children, there's always puppies!!! (not a dig at you or your comment...people always tell me to have more kids, but I tell them I'd rather have another puppy!!!!Not kidding!)

And for the record, my parents were in the adoption process when my mom finally got pregnant with me. Once they found that my mom was most likely going to carry the pregnancy to term, they quit the adoption process.

I was really sad to hear that, knowing that some where some kid almost had fantastic, loving parents but then I came along and screwed that up for them.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.
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I don't want to support other people's expensive hobbies. Do you want to support mine?
I found a third horse that I'd like, why don't you all scurry to raise the money for vet bills, shoes, feed and board? Heck, why don't you make my mortgage payments while you're at it. That way I could spend all day caring for them properly.
If we're all for denying subsidized medical care for the children of responsible working Americans, we should CERTAINLY cut off funds to this chick.

Wow Laura, expensive hobbies? You are just ridiculous with that. And quite insulting. I wouldn't call my 24 hour job a hobby. But how would you know anything about it? You don't even have children. And comparing owning a pet to having 3 children and being homeless is yet again ridiculous. But that's typical of you PCer's..comparing animals to kids. I, for one, am relieved you don't have any children as you will have no one to pass off your idiotic beliefs onto.

*shrugs*

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm an adopted child. Was adopted when I was 2 months old, closed adoption. My birth mother was 16, I think? I'm not sure. But either way, I have a great life. I love my adoptive parents very much, have a healthy curiosity about my birth parents, but then, don't really place much emphasis on it. I think it's vital that women have all the choices possible. Abortion, adoption, and raising a child are all viable options and all options that I will support.

And before you go off on "BUT IF YOUR MOM HAD AN ABORTION YOU WOULDN'T EXIST"...yeah. I wouldn't. I also wouldn't know or care because I never would have understood or comprehended or felt or anything. I wouldn't have cared.

"I'm PRO-LIFE, I'm not pro-adoption."

Wow, imagine that. Sort of the way that I'm PRO-CHOICE, not pro-abortion.

Rae, 7:16PM

I wouldn't worry. You were blessed with wonderful parents and them with you. Another couple who could not have their own child took the one your parents would have. It sounds like everyone came out a winner.

I also must agree with your 6:41 post wholeheartedly. Bearing children does not make one fit to raise them. I have seen so many children that should have been placed in adoptive homes. Children are often produced and kept to fulfill some emotional need, and when they don't, wind up in foster care or living with unfit parents. There are many more adoption options available these days. I know couples involved in open adoption. The birthmothers selected them. I'm sure these must have been heartbreaking decisions that the mothers, as well as the fathers, made in the best interests of their children. I know what joy they brought to these couples and what wonderful lives and opportunities these children have had. To me, this was the ultimate love and complete lack of selfishness.

First let me say that this is Jacquies post, not Jills. So I don't know whether these are Jill's sentiments or not...

Then let me say, that I love you Jacquie, and I hear you...adoption should not be used as the end all be all for "surprise" babies.

Now let me say...

My mother and father were unable to have children. My mother would have had 12 if she could. She waited 5 years to get my brother. One of the first adopted from Canada. Then she waited another 5 for me. She used to take a baby doll to bed with her at night, praying that when she woke up, the phone would ring and she would have the real thing. She even sent a message to Padre Pio via a priest that was going to see him, to ask if she would ever get a baby.

No child was ever wanted more than I (and my siblings) were.

My birth mother, as I have shared before, is plagued by so many mental illnesses I can't even remember them all, not to mention she is an alcoholic. My birth sister was raped for 4 years by her step father, and my birth mother did nothing to stop it. My birth brother is incarcerated (possibly for life) for repeatedly molesting small children.

Yes, I would hate to see women that could raise their own children with just a wee bit of help, giving their kids away...but I would also hate to see children being kept by parents who are simply not able to raise them with all that they deserve.

I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

Always, always, we must think of what is best for the children.

Sally, the only "good" thing my mother ever did was to hand me over to June and Ward Cleaver. If that means she treated me like a puppy, then throw me a bone.

My birth father got his mistress pregnant at the same time my mother was pregnant with me. The mistress aborted her child. My mother gave me to two of the most wonderful people that God ever created. I don't care what her motives were, she gave me the gift of life, and the gift of an amazing home, and I can never thank her enough!

arf.

MK, Jacque, the baby is coming really, really soon! Please pray, pray pray! Love you all!

Oh Yeah!!!!!! How's it going? I'm sooooooo excited! Tell her to put her chin to her chest. And keep telling her to LOOK IN YOUR EYES....

Bobby, even as an agnostic, I am sending good thoughts to your wife, daughter, and you. Here's hoping....

As sure as anything, you will great parents and your daughter will be a great one.

Best,

Doug

Bobby B., everything will be okay:}

MK, awesome post by you.

YES, BOBBY!!! God bless you, your wife & your little Bambino...You all are in my thoughts & prayers (actually, have been for days!!!)

:)

Why Dougster,

Thanks. (I gotta admit, not that I want to start up again, but every once in awhile, I miss our "debates"...)

Excellent post, MK. Sally, killing the child would be the most irresponsible thing that one could do. Adoption is the most unselfish choice.

Whoooooooo! Good luck to you, Bobby! New baby on the way!!!

mk,
so sad, yet so beautiful! Your mother must be an amazing woman..the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you know! :)

So sad to hear this comment come from a person who councils suffering women in crisis situations.
I feel sorry for the women who are not getting good council/encouragemen to do the right thing
and offer their child a two parent, loving, homes.� There is no easy solution to women who find themselves pregnant and alone. I, as a women whose been through it, agrees that ADOPTION IS THE LOVING OPTION!
Sure, I would have loved to keep my child and live on the mercy of others, but how long will that have lasted? Eventually, mothers must get
employment and the most affordable agency would have raised my child.� How is that good for a child?
These children, if not tossed at the grandparents to raise, usually end up being put into childcare; given to unloving, not really caring persons raise Monday through Friday?� How sad to have to wake a sleeping child up at the crack of dawn and drop it off at daycare only to pick it up at 5 just so one can watch it grow.� Who will teach the child how to love?� Don't children deserve a father? Are they that easily dispensable?� What about the statistics that show single mothers raising male children have a 75% chance of the child being incarcerated before the age of 18.��I thank God every day that I was given the grace to give my son up for adoption to a two parent home. I pity these women who choose to have open adoptions and screw up their child with a third opinion in matters, instead of giving him/her a chance at a normal life. �� Further studies show how a two parent family is beneficial to a child and there are no two ways about it.� I think that is why it was His plan from the start.� Not one, not three, not two men, not two women, he created them male and female.�� I pray that we can raise our children in the faith of the One True Church that He left us. Children need to know from the start that they are loved by Jesus, and He will not leave them. Although life is difficult, He shows us the way through His church. Even though we falter, He is there to pour His Mercy on His penitent children.
God bless all the birth moms who suffer the loss, a micro share of what Our Heavenly Mother must have felt. This pain,like Hers can be offered for all. God bless the birth mom for offering her child to a two parent family and saving them from the sin of masturbating into a test tube. A sin God punished by death in the Old Testament.
God bless the adoptive parents who open their hearts up to these little ones instead of taking matters into their own hands.
May we all live to know, love and serve the Lord, even if there is a little pain.

MK, I don't think we will have any shortage of future debates.

Where you said: I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

-- I certainly agree with that, and there is more than just "looking for argument" - there is also seeing a huge amount of gut-basic truth in your post, and I am grateful for that.

It's fascinating to hear where you come from and where we all come from. And I'm really happy for Bobby and his wife.

Doug

And comparing owning a pet to having 3 children and being homeless is yet again ridiculous. But that's typical of you PCer's..comparing animals to kids. I, for one, am relieved you don't have any children as you will have no one to pass off your idiotic beliefs onto.

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 14, 2007 7:30 PM
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Really?
I have a rescue for adult cats and another for German Shepherds. If that homeless woman came to me and asked to adopt on of my charges, do you think I should hand one over to her?
When I was an animal control officer we would often seize the animals from homes that weren't fit for dogs, chickens and goats. When I'd go for the 6-day, 6-week, and 6-month follow-ups, the CHILDREN WOULD STILL BE LIVING THERE. CPS wasn't given the orders to grab them.
Do I compare animals to children? No.
I think we live in a society that is often FAR kinder to animals than it is to kids.

Laura,
I agree! Hey, just wondering...do vets do abortions on dogs? Seriously..I thought about that a while ago & remembered after reading your post @ 8:55. I was going to research it on the web, but it freaked me out a bit...

I wasn't aware that Bobby was expecting a girl. How cool is that?

I can smell spoiled child, and she hasn't even arrived yet. I'm thinkin' diva...

Speakin' of "divas" - I gotta show you all a picture of my niece Isabella. How does one post pictures here?

Laura,
I agree! Hey, just wondering...do vets do abortions on dogs? Seriously..I thought about that a while ago & remembered after reading your post @ 8:55. I was going to research it on the web, but it freaked me out a bit...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 9:01 PM
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We spay pregnant animals every day at our practice. No animal is allowed to leave a California shelter for adoption unless it's spayed/neutered.
It's lookin' like November 2008 will bring a new law that says you can't OWN an intact housepet in California unless you have a kennel/cattery license. I lobby like a madwoman.

In our society we say we embrace diversity, but in many ways we don't. There is this notion that if you do this or that "right" you will be in control of your life. However, as Sally pointed out many are just a disaster away from homelessness.

I feel many people are derided for not being in control of everything. Similarly people are pressured to make things work that are not working. I know a couple who got married and used birth control and still had three kids in five years. One of their family members said they were foolish and couldn't afford that. They tried to control the situation but couldn't. They were good parents but their plans were not effective. Their life didn't fit someone else's ideal. Several years after I got married we decided to start our family and about two years later, our son was born. We thought soon we would have another, but nothing ever happened so we figured, oh well. Until after 17 years of marriage, surprise! I felt totally out of control. I even sought counseling. So now we are pushing 50 and we have a one year old. My brother got married a month before I did. His daughter is in college. My son is in diapers. My aunt wondered why I would arrange my life that way. But I didn't arrange it that way. My pregnancy was a big wake up call to my friends who knew it could have happened to them. Two of them went back to using contraception. After years of good planning, I realized that I was not in control. Control is an illusion.

Clearly the mother of triplets recognizes she is not in control and accepts it. I know we all wish her well, although there was a time not too long ago when I might also have thought she should have been more in control. Now I know better.

We spay pregnant animals every day at our practice. No animal is allowed to leave a California shelter for adoption unless it's spayed/neutered.
It's lookin' like November 2008 will bring a new law that says you can't OWN an intact housepet in California unless you have a kennel/cattery license. I lobby like a madwoman.

Posted by: Laura at November 14, 2007 9:06 PM

That is great! We have to get that law here. People don't know that it costs the gov't and private agencies a ton of money to collect, destroy and dispose of the millions, yeah millions of unwanted cats and dogs. Prevention is better than cure.

Laura,
Dumb question, I know, but are you lobbying for or against this law?

Bobby, Good-Luck!

Having worked with both birthmothers and adoptive parents, I see the pain the birthmothers face in grieving the loss of their baby. I worked solely in open adoptions, but even in those cases the birthmothers regret lost motherhood. The children struggle with understanding why their birthmothers chose to place and why their fathers didn't seem to care much at all.

Jill, this is a great topic. I had a girlfriend in Canada back in 1993, and she had given a boy up for adoption years before, when she was still a teenager. The rules were that when he ws 18, he could look up his birth mother - and that time was a year away and my girlfriend was worried about it.

I could understand her being worried what would happen, but I sure can also understand wanting to find out who one's real mom and dad are.

And - no question about it - that feeling of "why didn't my mom and dad want me?" must surely be brutal for many adopted kids. In the end I think it's better for them to know, if they want to know.

Great, great movie - "Antwone Fisher." Have you seen it?

Doug

And Hippie - great post from you too!

Doug said "I had a girlfriend in Canada back in 1993, and she had given a boy up for adoption years before, when she was still a teenager. The rules were that when he ws 18, he could look up his birth mother - and that time was a year away and my girlfriend was worried about it."

Don't leave me hanging....did he ever look her up???

Laura,
Dumb question, I know, but are you lobbying for or against this law?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 9:11 PM
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I'm working to pass the law. My experiences with backyard breeders are not good.

In 1982 I was single and pregnant and at that point my boyfriend and I vascilated for a few days between adoption and keeping our baby. I decided to keep him altho he wanted me to put him up for adoption. This was in the 1st trimester and I made that decision, never looking back, focusing on the new life I was bringing into the world. Mind you, we were considered "unwed mothers" back then and it was much harder on me with peoples' predjudices to go thru during my pregnancy than it is for single moms from this generation.
I would never stress to a single mom that her only option was to give up her child. We are such fragile beings and I could never live with myself if I had given up my son.

Laura, my girlfriend dumped me before I found out if her son found her.

I think it's a good law....a license would show responsibility & one would have to be educated in the responsibility to get the license, right?

I think we need "mother's license, too!" (sorry, couldn't help myself!)

Doug,

I'm sorry :(
Didn't mean to pry....

Ha! Laura - I agree with that, to a large degree. Having kids, like getting married, is a huge deal IMO and I think it's hard to know yourself and your partner enough to be sure it's a good thing, so at the least you better be darn sure beforehand....

Laura, not a problem - it was long ago. She and I will both be 50 in 2009, and I've thought of calling her up to see what happened.

Rather a strange and sad story - she had one younger brother who had a girlfriend, and in late 1992 he secretly took one of their dad's guns (the father was a prominent member of the city police) and went for a drive with his girlfriend, eventually pulling over and telling her he wanted to watch him kill himself. He never fired the gun, and eventually the girl persuaded him to call the cops. Royal Canadian Mounted Police came, and tried to talk him out of the car. He wouldn't do it but eventually consented to talking to his parents. Later, he let the girlfriend go and surrendered.

The girlfriend had been a volunteer for "SSAV" - something like that, which stood for Services for Sexual Assault Victims. She ended up suing him (I think with considerable urging from some other women at SSAV) and in the court hearings it came out that he had been sexually abused by an uncle when he was 6 and 7 years old - the uncle being the brother of his mother.

This was played out in the newspapers and it was a horrible thing for the family. My girlfriend was consumed with hatred for her uncle, and she was rather a "hard" person anyway. It was tough being with her.

Not to say I hadn't made mistakes with her - I surely had and looking back it's no surprise now that we broke up - I think it would have come even without all the bad stuff in her family. I feel it's a good thing we didn't get married.

You never know what's going to happen....

Doug

*claps for Diane!*

Doug,
wow..that really is sad. Maybe instead of looking her up you should leave well enough alone. But, hey, what do I know? I can't believe it was played out in the papers like that. Tough for the family in the first place w/o the whole country knowing! Life is funny like that, isn't it? It's definately like a box of chocolate!
I try not to take it so seriously, though. A woman I work with with once said, "it's not worth worrying about if it's not going to matter in 100 years, anyway!

Hello all. Thank you so much for all your kind words and support. We had our baby! She is PERFECT! We named her Gianna, 7.3 lbs. The delivery was intense! My wife went from 2cm to 9cm in less than an hour! Then it was just an explosion of excitement. So we're just chillin now. I'll talk to ya'll later. God love ya'll!

^5 Bobby!

(High-Five)

Bobby, Congratulations! I love that name!!

WOOO HOOOO GO BOBBY, THERE'S A NEW BABY IN THE BLOGS!!!

I BETTER GET TO SEE SOME PICTURES. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

*dances around*

NEW BABY NEW BABY NEW BABY!!

Heather, it's a Hebrew name, mebbe Greek too. "God is gracious."

Congratulations Bobby!

Whewhew Bobby!!! Thank you God for perfect little Gianna!!! Really love the name! Get some rest & post some pics soon...ENJOY!!!!

Doug, thank you.

femi-nazi humor video.

http://feministing.com/archives/008088.html

I would have kicked this guys butt.

Bobby, on night my first daughter was born, I couldn't let her leave. I slept with her on my chest and listened to her breath all night. It was probably the happiest moment of my life, and we are still close today, despite the challenges of the teenage years.

So, the years go by so fast, enjoy every moment you hold her in your arms..

I think this is a great post. I've been coming to the same difficult conclusion about adoption over the years. Yes, sometimes parents really *can't* take care of their children, so adoption does have a place. But the arguments about trying to help women improve their life circumstances so they don't feel the need to abort apply to adoption as well.

There was an article about international adoption in the most recent Mother Jones that was absolutely heartbreaking. It was from the perspective of an American family wondering if they'd "stolen" their daughter from her Guatemalan mother, who loved her very much but was just too poor to raise her the way she felt the girl deserved. I thought about my baby girl while I was reading it, and just cried and cried.

One of the points made in the article was that parents spend many thousands of dollars on these adoptions, when a fraction of that would be enough to allow the child to stay with his or her parents (in some cases). That's tragic.

OHHHH BOBBY...I'm so glad for you! Gianna is a GORGEOUS name! I bet she's adorable...and what a blessing!!! I'm glad everything went great AND fast..lucky lucky! I second Lyssie's request for pictures. I love babies...cherish this age..you go to sleep one night and wake up the next morning and they're all grown up!! It's heartbreaking and glorious all at the same time!

Heather ~ thanks: *claps for Diane!*

He is now 25 with a 5 year old son of his own.
I am really proud of him. Right now he is in New Orleans helping Hurricane Katrina victims with rebuilding their homes and their lives.
I raised him alone too.

What is the moral of the story of Doug and the "hard person girlfriend"?
1, When the going gets tuff, Doug gets going.
2. The girlfriend didn't need a pessimistic personality around her any longer,she was gloomy and sad from her adoption decision. And her brother being possibly incarcerated over his suicide attempt . Who needs a another pessimist around her, she thought.
3. Doug couldn't stand her pessimism and left her from not needing to hear anymore pessimism about her brother and uncle. Much less her anxiety about her previous life decisions coming back to either love her or berate her, and Doug always saying, I don't know, Maybe soo, who cares, I'm agnostic, except for the right of women to become murderers.
4.The sex got pessimistic for Doug, and he left.
5.The sex was always pessimistic for the girlfriend, from Doug reminding her about abortion being a right decision to have offered to women. Doug was being Doug, unable to think beyond his principles and how they emotionally affect people.
6. No one needs a self proclaimed skeptic, not being skeptical about women having the choice to become murderers of their own flesh and blood.
7. Doug is a hypocrite and she couldn't stand hypocrites being around her anymore. Especially a pompous hypocrite who does not think he is a hypocrite when his agnosticism vanishes completely concerning his allowing women to become baby killers.
7. She became a Christian, and left Doug for one who is not such a pessimistic personality about not knowing for sure. But knowing for sure, without a doubt, that women should be allowed to kill.
8.Doug is a realistic hard person and knows how to manipulate a hard person to get what Doug wants. She wasn't, and left Doug in a flash of vanishing agnosticism about Doug.
10. Obviously she never wanted to see or hear from Doug again.
Realistic enough for ya Doug? Or is that pessimistic enough for ya Doug?

Notice the JOY we experienced when The Kid announced Gianna's arrival?

Yay!!!

Contrast that with the sober faces coming out of the abortion facilities.

*sigh* What we lose out on sometimes...

Bambino,
Gianna. Any connection to St. Gianna?

yllas: When the going gets tuff, Doug gets going.

Nope - it was her decision.

yllas, despite your pessimism, the fact remains that for some women having an abortion is the best thing in their particular situation.

I agree with Jacqueline when she says that we should also try to help people in difficult circumstances(financial) so that they can kept their child. I agree with Rae,Mary,and Rosie that some children are better off being adopted. I don't think we should sacrifice a child's wellbeing for the sake of keeping a biological family together. For example, I grew up in a horrible home and I often wished that I would have been given up for adoption. On the same token though, I also fantasized that my parents weren't my biological parents and that my biological parents would come and rescue me.

Morning everyone! Again, thank you all so much for your words, prayers, and experiences that you have shared. Yes Carder, we did name her after St. Gianna, a very pro-life saint. I'll try and post a couple pics later in the day if that's okay with Jill. God love you all.

Congratulations Bobby and Wife! I'm so happy for you both!

Please do post pictures, Bobby! :)

Praise God!

Another Gianna!

My Confirmation name!

Congrats!

Congratulations Bobby!!

jasper, that guy needs an arse whupping, and he also needs a psychiatrist.

You could have continued the relationship Doug, but your a person who leaves when the going gets tuff. You wanted her to quit the relationship because the going got ruff Doug. You sly devil, Doug.
There was nothing to gain for you Doug, after you discovered her problems in life were not your problems, being a realist, that you are Doug. True or false Doug? And being realistic, Doug, writing with all realism one must have, what motivated you to have a relationship with such a person? Her intellect or bubbly personality which exuded optimism. Or her pessimism which you shared with her and fed off each other? Bet it was the sex, Doug. And when that was weighed againest her problems in life, you did the most realistic thing a narcissistic, pessimistic person could decide to do, make life more miserable for her until she left you.
My list of realistic reasons for your failure of being with another person still stands, except for reason #3.
I stand by reason #4, because Doug did leave for reason 4, which can't be admitted in public. It makes Doug, less of a Doug, in the public eye of Doug.

Maybe the moral of the story should be.
Doug is a tuff realist, taking on such a women with such problems in life. Or, then again, what type of person would even begin a relationship with such a person with such problems in life and think it would last. Maybe that was the point of why Doug began the relationship in the first place.

jasper, that guy is just the type that SOME pro aborts love.

Can I ask a question? What about people like my cousin who can't have children?

There is no fairness, rhyme or reason with infertility. Why the crack prostitute can get pregnant and leave her baby in the dumpster while loving, stable couples can't conceive is a sad thing. But no one "owes" their baby to your cousin. Like I said, they'll always be someone better off to raise a family- more money, for instance. But that doesn't mean that the poor, the single, the young OWE it to the infertile to place their babies with them.

By the way, there are foster children waiting for homes right now. Even INFANTS. The problem with the 10 million waiting couples is that they want a healthy WHITE infant. Something that looks like them, that they can mold into their image. If you cousin wants children to love and raise, there are PLENTY.

Her and her husband plan to adopt in the future.

Good for them! There are many AIDS orphans who need homes.

Are they just SOL because "children should stay with their birth parents"

Adoption is for parents who absolutely can't raise their children. It's not legal abandonment. It's not "giving a baby away." I feel the pain your infertile cousin feels, but once again, he/she is not OWED a child.

I know a couple who became pregnant before they were married, they thought the best choice for everyone was to give the child up for adoption.

The right language is PLACE for adoption.

A few years later they got married and currently have four other children. they have reconnected with her daughter (when the daughter turned 18). When i asked the mother if she regretted her decision she said that she did not.

Good for the mom. There are many birthmoms that made the hard, RIGHT choice to place. I'm not downplaying that. But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad.

I don't think we should sacrifice a child's wellbeing for the sake of keeping a biological family together.

I agree, Carrie. But I think there is some intrinsicly valuable about biological ties. Especially since adoptees, no matter how great their adoptive home always inevitably wonder, "Mom, Dad, why didn't you want me?"

I agree, EH:

We don't want anyone to feel coerced into adoption, and people usually do come to adoption through grief--of infertility and placing a child. But a the same time, adoption is a brave choice that can be positive for everyone.

I think it's important that people see reality- that adoption is not a magical process. There is always grief from someone in the adoption process.

yllas,
I think your being a bit hard on Doug. When I first met some of the losers I dated, they didn't disclose all of their "issues". It always seemed like a "match made in Heaven". The issues just came out as time went along, and I realized the relationships were not what God intended for me. If Doug made a decision to bail on a relationship that wasn't going to work out, God bless him! Why stay in a relationship that is just going to make you miserable? That's no way to live! Life is way too short! God wants us to be happy.

Jacqueline...I totally agree with you. If people were more willing to adopt children of different races...there would be a lot less foster kids. My daughter is bi-racial (I'm sure you've seen the pics) and I think not wanting a child because of the color of their skin is DUMB. They must not really want a child that badly, because all children are wonderful. There's a couple 2 houses down that have 2 black twin sisters who are adopted obviously and THAT brings such joy to my heart. I wish people could get over their stupid issues and look at the big picture. ALL children need somebody to love them, no matter what race they are.

Go check out the new movie Bella, in theatres this weekend! It's an edifying story of the unmitigated value and dignity of human life.

Elizabeth, I agree.

Well AB,
I am just being a realist, just as Doug is.
Fact are facts. Doug did nothing but leave a women who was in the middle of issues which define you as a person.
People lash out at other people when they are having "issues". Fact is, those issues which are mentioned by Doug, will have, and have become the past. Ever been around people who are sick? Get away, leave me alone, let me die.
What we have seen from Doug, is the person who leaves such people in the middle of their suffering. Get out Doug. Leave me alone, Doug.
And sure enough, right in the middle of her suffering, Doug took the easy way out.
Maybe AB, you missed the point about Jesus.
Now, if one is a Christian, one must suffer for another, for the true good of another,or one is just a sunshine Christian.
When the cross was coming for Doug, Doug got out as fact as Doug could take his agnostic, narcissistic, pessimistic personality, outta there. One does not leave another with "issues" such as Doug faced. Every "issue" was not Doug's problems, which made the "getting out" a blessing for Doug. He was going to be blessed with happiness from getting away from a suffering women.
You think about It AB.
Ever met such a man?
After the fog clears and you review what happen, you look around and Doug is gone.
Which is why she never wanted to hear or see from that silly agnostic again. Only that silly agnostic Doug, is sure and dogmatic about allowing women to kill. What a insult Doug was to her, and her child who might not love her, when they met. She knew exactly what Doug was. When the going got tuff, Doug got going.

jasper, that guy needs an arse whupping, and he also needs a psychiatrist.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 8:51 AM
jasper, that guy is just the type that SOME pro aborts love.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 9:01 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have either of you morons ever seen Da Ali G Show? Ever seen Borat?
The guy in the video clip is Sasha Baron Cohen, he's hysterical, and the whole thing was for a laugh.
You two REALLY need to get out more...

I like Borat.

Laura, that ugly goof went to a pro life rally, and deliberately insulted people. Kind of like "Stuttering John" from Howard Stern.

yllas,
That's quite a stretch! What an assumption..I don't recall Doug ever specifying WHY the relationship ended or who called it off for that matter. Give the guy a break!

Besides, it's not funny to joke about the death of unborn children. I'd say that guy needs to get out more. C'mon, he's hanging out at abortion rallies????

Laura, that ugly goof went to a pro life rally, and deliberately insulted people. Kind of like "Stuttering John" from Howard Stern.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 10:18 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was funny when Chris Rock slammed pro-choice rallies, and it was funny when Cohen slammed pro-life rallies.
When those ladied started singing that hymn and he broke into beatbox, I almost DIED...

Well, Chris Rock did say that he goes to PC rallies to pick up tramps. I did crack up at that one.

At least Chris Rock goes for a reason. He's looking for a "loose" chick.

Heather,
So Chris Rock's comments are proof that many PC'ers are sleazes, huh?

When those ladied started singing that hymn and he broke into beatbox, I almost DIED...

Posted by: Laura at November 15, 2007 10:24 AM*************************************************************************************************** Did you see how calm they were? Pro lifers are very tolerant.

AB Laura, the PC crowd just loves him.

Doug,
"Heather, it's a Hebrew name, mebbe Greek too. "God is gracious."

It is the female version of "John" in Italian.

rosie, thank you.:}

Maybe the dorky rapper was hoping to find a date.

AB Laura, Hey. If any of us were to say that abortion patients were "tramps," we would really get it with both barrels. Let Chris Rock say such things, and it's a royal SCREAM!

The women who was suffering called it off according to the dogmatist Doug.
In the middle of her mental anguish, despair, hopelessness about her brother,seeing her child she gave away, and her future, she gave a reality check to Doug.
She checked his reality, and he failed her miserably, which made her know exactly what she was bedding down with.
So maybe the moral of the story is;
When your suffering, tell a loved one to get out, and if they do, call Doug, he knows what being a man is all about.

Heather,
I notice that people aren't as quick to confront people who are out-spoken like Cris Rock. Pro-lifers are so docile, who would think twice about screaming at them?

Bobby,
Congradulations! Having a girl is absolutely wonderful! Buying clothes for them is so fun,lol!

rosie, right!

AB Laura, Hey. If any of us were to say that abortion patients were "tramps," we would really get it with both barrels. Let Chris Rock say such things, and it's a royal SCREAM!

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 10:48 AM

How 'bout it! But the good news is, is that usually these contraversial PR stunts come back to bite them in the "you know what". Judgement Day is going to be a hoot, huh?

yes, indeed!

I hope Bobby's baby is doing okay!

Hey Heather. She's doing very well, thanks. She is currently attempting to nurse, although she seems to prefer to suck her own hand. What a silly little gal!

Bobby, I just had a girl in April. It's scary at first, but you will be okay.

BOBBY! You must be soooooo happy...I'm happy for you guys! Thank you so much for keeping us posted...I kept getting chills when I would read your posts. That was so nice of you to include us in your tremendous experience. You're going to be such a great dad!
Thanks again!

Jacqueline,

Please don't put words in my mouth.

1. I never said my cousin was infertile. I said she couldn't have children. If she became pregnant, it would more than likely kill her.

2. I never said that anyone "owed" my cousin and her husband anything. I just got the sense from your post that you believe birth mothers should keep their children no matter what. I think that is untrue when there are more responsible people out there to raise a child.

3. I never said she wouldn't adopt a child of another race, nor a child that wasn't an infant. I am not sure what her and her husband plan to do.

4. I also never said that poor people who become pregnant need and must PLACE (happy now) their child up adoption and give them to .

5. I also never said it was anyone's duty to "give" my cousin a child.

"But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad."

Wrong, it says they looked at their life and thought to themselves, right now we feel the best choice for our child is for them to be with parents than can support them better than we can. It's not like they became pregnant and said, "we're young, ummm not married, not finically stable, so i guess its our "duty" to place our child up for adoption. "

Lastly Jacqueline, is there a reason you didn't address MK's beautiful post?

Congrats Bobby! How excited you must be!

Hello there JM. Have you driven home yet?

Bobby,
When she is hungry she will eat, she may just want to suck on something but not be hungry. I was really concerned about my daughter eating enough at first but not anymore, she is 7 months and 18 lbs!

rosie, I didn't know you had a 7 month old!! I do too!

Wow, Heather...your daughter is already 7 months! How time flies.

Bethany, hi. Yes. On the 19th.

I remember when I was nursing mine, and he didn't want to eat right away. The Dr. told me that babies have a "stockpile" of food in them to last a few days after they're born ...so, don't worry!!!

Okay, JM-

1. I never said my cousin was infertile. I said she couldn't have children. If she became pregnant, it would more than likely kill her.

Same thing.

2. I never said that anyone "owed" my cousin and her husband anything.

Good. Because they aren't.

I just got the sense from your post that you believe birth mothers should keep their children no matter what.

Then don't put words in my mouth. I've worked in adoption and agreed with the rationale behind most of the placements. I just see coercion behind adoption like their is coercion behind abortion.

I think that is untrue when there are more responsible people out there to raise a child.

And who's the judge of that? Should someone who is not responsible enough to pay their bills on time then supposed to place their child with those that do? See the line you're walking?

3. I never said she wouldn't adopt a child of another race, nor a child that wasn't an infant. I am not sure what her and her husband plan to do.

My point is that they's NOT SOL as you claim. If they don't want a pink, healthy infant, they have a myraid of options.

4. I also never said that poor people who become pregnant need and must PLACE (happy now) their child up adoption and give them to .

No, but you said, "But what about those that can't have children!" as if it's the duty of those that can to provide children to those that can't.

5. I also never said it was anyone's duty to "give" my cousin a child.

It's implied. If people don't give your cousin a child, they're SOL, right? That's what you said.

"But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad."

Wrong, it says they looked at their life and thought to themselves, right now we feel the best choice for our child is for them to be with parents than can support them better than we can.

Or, it says that they feel desperate that their only option for their children is placement. In that case, they need SUPPORT.

It's not like they became pregnant and said, "we're young, ummm not married, not finically stable, so i guess its our "duty" to place our child up for adoption. "

No- it's pressed upon them, much like abortion.

Lastly Jacqueline, is there a reason you didn't address MK's beautiful post?

I'll do that right now.

I agree with MK completely! I'm not making a blanket statement against adoption (In fact, Jill and I debated about the headline because that's not the point of my post).

I'm not condemning adoption. I love adoption. But people pressure birth mom's into it in situations where it's not needed because they think it's best for the baby and---it's easier than helping the birthmother out. And that traumtizes mother and child. There is also an idea that married, stable people "deserve" babies and unmarried, unstable people to not. That's not true. No one deserves children- it's a gift of God that He gives as He sees fit. As my mother explained when I asked as a child while the best would-be moms and dads couldn't have kids, she said, "God reserves those people to adopt all the children in most need of those parents."

Adoption is for such situations where the parents can not parent, not when the parents feel like a bigger house or more money is better for their child than their biological family. MK's birthmom was not down on her luck- she was mentally ill and not capable of raising a child (as evidenced by MK's birthsister's trauma).

Placing MK was a wonderful, heroic act. Most adoptions are. My heart pains for those that AREN'T.

I need to respond to the issues of race in adoption that are going around. My daughter is AA, and yes, we did have an easier time adopting because of her race. But, there are a lot of issues here. I am approached weekly, sometimes even daily, by people who want to talk about adoption or talk about race or even talk about my infertility issues. I am confident in talking about all of this with strangers, but it is simply not for everyone. Wanting to have a family that "matches" may not mean you are racist, it may just mean that you are not ready to be a "conspicuous family." Also, if you have racist family members it would not be responsible to adopt transracially knowing that your child would be subjected to repeated racism from those close to you. I wrote a detailed article on this subject for my blog wwww.kiddobeans.com, so check out my additional comments there.

Re: foster care. This is a completely different situation from open infant adoption. Making a decision to adopt is not the same as making a decision to foster to adoption from DCFS. The goal of DCFS is to keep biological families together. This could mean years of uncertainty as court cases go back and forth and the biological family does or does not meet the criteria set for them to resume guardianship. Even if adoption does take place, it is after years of stress and uncertainty. If the biological family is actually qualified to parent, that is hard enough, but suppose they are not? The child, who has been YOUR child for years, could be right back in the system. You are also facing parenting children with various levels of abuse, abandonement issues, and neglect. DCFS also tries to keep siblings together, so available children may come in groups of 2 or 3 or 5 of various ages and abilities. Are you ready to jump right in to parenting a teenager as a first time parent?

DCFS's goal of keeping biological families together is admirable, but the system takes years to work things out, and it is the children who suffer. It is simply not the same as a permanent adoption dating from infancy. They are not interchangeable. It takes a very special family to foster through DCFS.

EH

for Jill's Mom ....

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ re. Linus Pauling

Mathias Rath is another!

John, How is Jill's mom?

EH-

You're right. I worked with many adoptive parents that couldn't adopt outside of their race because of racism in their families. There are also the concerns you've mentioned.

However, with a state adoption, after birthparents rights are terminated, they're terminated. It's very much like a closed adoption then. Of course, this means that infants are toddlers before they are legally adoptable because of all the chances the stae gives parents to "get it together", but after that, there is no back-and-forth.

So while it takes a special family to foster, I don't think adopting through the state takes additional strength, only the willingness to work with an older child and acclimate him/her to their new, forever family.

Hey, did you guys hear the Angelina Jolie's adopted baby girl is wanted back by her birthmom now?

EH-

I LOVE your blog! Those costumes are precious!

Have you considered adopting again when your itty bitties are a little bigger?

Making an adoption plan isn't like sitting in front of a Wal Mart with the kid in a cradboard box with "Free to good home" written on it in crayon.

Damn right! It's a lenghty, often agonizating labor of love and self-giving. It's not a "cop out."

Hey, did you guys hear the Angelina Jolie's adopted baby girl is wanted back by her birthmom now?

This is precisely my point. These parents relinquished their children out of desperation (fear of starvation). If these celebrities donated .0000001 of what they make in ONE DAY to the parents, those children could stay with their families and not be treated like a fashion accessory in a fish bowl.

Jacqueline:

I am so glad that you have such a positive view of foster care/adoption. I would like to adopt through the DCFS in the future, but the two families I know who did successfully adopt the children in their family took years to resolve as various (unfit) family members put in their claim for guardianship. One friend just had to relinquish the four-year-old she had been parenting since birth. My sister-in-law wants to adopt through DCFS, but was basically told that, as she already has a toddler, she'd be at the bottom of the list. Altogether, its been a disheartening picture. Maybe if I just jump into it, I can see for myself and find out if I do have that "special person" in me.

EH

EH,

I'm sorry to hear about the pain your friend is facing. Sadly, bureaucracy is social services is painful for all, children and families. I don't think I could foster-adopt. I'd simply adopt, but utilize the foster system to make it faster/cheaper.

Here's my strategy for adopting through the state vs. a private agency (This is how it is in Texas, and it is likely different from state to state.)

1. Sign up to foster and let the state pay for your homestudies and prep.

2. Adopt a fully-relinquished child with minimal delay (you're already set up) and let the state pay the expenses.

3. The adoption was free and you get an income tax credit as well. The child also gets free state college tuition.

Most families struggle with the 25k to adopt. This way they can provide adopt, removing a child from an institutionalized life without a nearly insurmountable expense. If I ever am blessed enough to adopt, this is the route I'm taking. :)

Jaque,

"I'm not making a blanket statement against adoption (In fact, Jill and I debated about the headline because that's not the point of my post)."

Speaking for myself, reading the headline automatically registered a negative towards adoption in my brain. I was puzzled. But now that you have clarified yourself a bit, then I would have to agree that the title was just a wee bit misleading.

You're a wizard with words, so maybe another title would have given the matter a more positive light.

Bi-racial babies? They're probably the prettiest babies around. I tend to confuse them with hispanic babies.

Good insights, all of you.

Good for you! I'll look into it when my kids (now 1.5 and 2 years) get older. FYI, my adoption was only $11,000 (cheaper because it was transracial--there is truth in the fact that AA children are harder to place, but the reasons are more complicated than just "hey, you're racist")

EH

EH,
Are DCFS out of their mind?? Taking away a 4 yr. old so late in the game to go to a biological family just for the sake of biology? Don't they even have a clue how devastating that will be to the pre-schooler? Are they THAT clueless and cruel?
Why couldn't they just leave her with who she knows as family and be done with it?

I'm so sad...

AB Laura, I hadn't heard that. Is she going to pursue it?

My bad, Sally..it just seems from your posts that abortion is always the best answer you can give, and any pro-life or anti-abortion comment is argued by you. For what it's worth, I apologize.

Hey, If you can't have more children, there's always puppies!!! (not a dig at you or your comment...people always tell me to have more kids, but I tell them I'd rather have another puppy!!!!Not kidding!)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:56 PM
.......................................................

No offense taken Laura. I'm 50, my SO is 51 and has been snipped. No more pegnancies here! I have two grand puppies. No grandkids yet. They are a lot of fun. I'm thinking that I would like a Wheatland Terrior. I don't have SO convinced yet.
And Laura, I am completely PC. Mostly due to the trajic pregnancies I have witnessed. No one should have to experience such heartbreak unwillingly. Does that better explain where I am coming from?

Heather,
I heard it on the news this morning....However, when I went to get you a link to an article, the story is now being de-bunked.

I'm not posting anymore celebrity crap from now on!

-my apologies

And Laura, I am completely PC. Mostly due to the trajic pregnancies I have witnessed. No one should have to experience such heartbreak unwillingly. Does that better explain where I am coming from?

Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 1:33 PM

Well, yes & no....but I can better understand you now. Thanks :)

AB Laura, that's okay.

Now let me say...

My mother and father were unable to have children. My mother would have had 12 if she could. She waited 5 years to get my brother. One of the first adopted from Canada. Then she waited another 5 for me. She used to take a baby doll to bed with her at night, praying that when she woke up, the phone would ring and she would have the real thing. She even sent a message to Padre Pio via a priest that was going to see him, to ask if she would ever get a baby.

No child was ever wanted more than I (and my siblings) were.

My birth mother, as I have shared before, is plagued by so many mental illnesses I can't even remember them all, not to mention she is an alcoholic. My birth sister was raped for 4 years by her step father, and my birth mother did nothing to stop it. My birth brother is incarcerated (possibly for life) for repeatedly molesting small children.

Yes, I would hate to see women that could raise their own children with just a wee bit of help, giving their kids away...but I would also hate to see children being kept by parents who are simply not able to raise them with all that they deserve.

I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

Always, always, we must think of what is best for the children.

Sally, the only "good" thing my mother ever did was to hand me over to June and Ward Cleaver. If that means she treated me like a puppy, then throw me a bone.

My birth father got his mistress pregnant at the same time my mother was pregnant with me. The mistress aborted her child. My mother gave me to two of the most wonderful people that God ever created. I don't care what her motives were, she gave me the gift of life, and the gift of an amazing home, and I can never thank her enough!

arf.

Posted by: mk at November 14, 2007 8:10 PM
...............................................
I completely understand how greatful adoptive families are for their adopted children. I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created. If circumstances for me were so dire that I was unable to raise a child, I would abort.
Coinicidentaly, my mother's first husband knocked up a 16 year old when mom was pregnant with my oldest sis. Sis has a half sis a few months younger than herself. She lives on the same street but they have not seen each other since they were babies. (That's a whole nother story!)
Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Excellent post, MK. Sally, killing the child would be the most irresponsible thing that one could do. Adoption is the most unselfish choice.

Posted by: heather at November 14, 2007 8:32 PM
........................................................

I completely disagree. I would find myself incredibly selfish to pawn of my responsibility onto another. I would abort before consideering such a thing.

Hello all. Thank you so much for all your kind words and support. We had our baby! She is PERFECT! We named her Gianna, 7.3 lbs. The delivery was intense! My wife went from 2cm to 9cm in less than an hour! Then it was just an explosion of excitement. So we're just chillin now. I'll talk to ya'll later. God love ya'll!

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 14, 2007 10:11 PM
.........................................................

CONGRATULATIONS! Where are the cigars?

Sally,

I completely disagree. I would find myself incredibly selfish to pawn of my responsibility onto another. I would abort before consideering such a thing.

No offense, but I'm sure glad you weren't my mother then. I'm thrilled that she was "selfish" and "irresponsible"...otherwise the world would not have been blessed with my humble self :)

Sally,

Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Sure, I can understand that. It's weird sometimes feeling two opposite things at the same time. I know I'm so grateful that my birthmom relinquished me, but I also feel horrible that my sister had to grow up in that house. And I'm grateful that I wasn't aborted, but feel guilty because my sibling was.

Being a believer, this is when we would say that God turns all evil into good if only you cooperate. What happened with "Web" was terrible, but good came out of it. And not just for you, but for your mom AND your dad. Sounds to me like Web is the one that got shafted. lol.

I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created.

But killing a child you created- that's just fine!

Sally~You would rather kill your baby than give it to a family who can responsibly take care of it?Talk about selfish....

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must
die so that you may live as you wish"
~Mother Theresa

Bobby, Tell your wife I am sending her some good thoughts/prayers that breastfeeding is successful! It was the greatest experience for me and my daughter..and now at almost 2 years old we are almost done. (she still likes to nurse sometimes in the middle of the night though) DO NOT let the nurses give your baby formula though..or else that will make breastfeeding much more challenging cause the baby will get confused! They gave my daughter formula once and then getting her to nurse was rough..but I did it..and she stayed in my room the rest of our stay!

JM,
Thank you for those kind words.

Jacquie,

I think I see what you're saying. You're saying that while abortion is wrong the one thing both sides agree on is that it should never be done because the woman felt coerced into doing it. Like she didn't have a real choice. While we think it should never be done, I think that prochoicers and prolifers alike agree that it would be even worse if "Big Brother" was deciding who would have abortions and who wouldn't.

You're saying that the same applies to adoption. While we are all for adoption (as are most prochoicers) we can also agree that it should be the womans choice whether to place her child or not, and it sometimes seems like "Big Brother" is deciding who should keep their children or give them away.

I spent three long years on the internet searching for my birth family (as much time as I spend on here...day after day, hour after hour) and I can't tell you the stories that you hear.

Many woman had their children snatched from their arms for the sole reason that they weren't married.

And I hate to say it (I mean I REALLY hate to say it) but Catholic Charities was one of the worst culprits. You should browse the adoption boards sometime. The stories are horrible.

So to recap...adoption is good if the woman chooses it freely. But if there is a chance that a few bucks and roof would make or break the deal then that should be the first choice...

Did I get it right?

"Have you considered adopting again when your itty bitties are a little bigger?"

Jaqueline:

Thanks for the kudos on my site. Yes, in fact we are absolutely going to adopt again. We always wanted to, and moreover, we firmly decided when we adopted Little Miss that we would adopt another AA child (studies show transracial adoptees feel less isolated if they have siblings of the same race). We were able to definitively explain that to Little Miss' birthmom as well, and I know that made her happy and affected her choice to place Little Miss with us. We really don't know whether my pregnancy with Little Man was a fluke or not, but even if we have other biological children, we will adopt again. We're just not sure whether it will be a DCFS situation or another transracial infant adoption.

EH

Sally, how about not having sex to begin with?? If you choose to do so, be prepared to deal with a possible pregnancy. You have no right to kill that child via abortion.

EH,

Thanks for explaining that! I was going to ask, but didn't want to be tacky. I know our agency had 2 AA babies that needed home but had no parents.

I'm praying for your family.

Heather,
"rosie, I didn't know you had a 7 month old!! I do too!"

Awesome! Don't you love it? She is starting to make some really funny noises, my husband taught her how to growl, he says "growl like a wolf" and she goes "grrr". Sometimes she just laughs at him because she knows it is funny. It is so cool when they start to show their personalities. I want another one!

Jaqueline:

If they're in IL, we'll begin the process right now! (But, probably not, huh?)

EH

yllas: When the cross was coming for Doug, Doug got out as fact as Doug could

As usual, you are false. It was her decision. I would not have broken up with her then.
......

Which is why she never wanted to hear or see from that silly agnostic again.

Wrong again. We've talked since, but not for some years now.

When confronted by superior arguments you appear to be able to do nothing but make up silly baloney and slink around the periphery trying to pick at people.

Doug

rosie, when was she born?

Sally,

Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Sure, I can understand that. It's weird sometimes feeling two opposite things at the same time. I know I'm so grateful that my birthmom relinquished me, but I also feel horrible that my sister had to grow up in that house. And I'm grateful that I wasn't aborted, but feel guilty because my sibling was.

Being a believer, this is when we would say that God turns all evil into good if only you cooperate. What happened with "Web" was terrible, but good came out of it. And not just for you, but for your mom AND your dad. Sounds to me like Web is the one that got shafted. lol.

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 2:12 PM

...........................................................

I don't see life as quite that black and white. I think that Web's cheating saved mom from many years of a unhappy marriage. Webs' parents were Salvation Army officers as was my grandma. Mom and Web were pretty much expected to marry. I'm not sure that it was really their idea.
Web married the 16 year old and they had 5 more children. By all accounts a happy enough marriage.
Mom had 8 more pregnancies from which she has 2 children. Dad died in 1974. Afraid of being alone, Mom married a man who was emotionally abusive. He died last year. She had brain surgery the year before and doesn't remember being married to him. Most days she doesn't remember having children. Mom's life has been a mixture of good and bad. As I'm sure that Web's was. I don't attribute any of it to God.

I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created.

But killing a child you created- that's just fine!

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 15, 2007 2:12 PM
.............................................................

Don't be ridiculous. My children are alive and well. You may fantasize embryos to be itty bitty babies just needing to grow but I know better. I had no children until I gave birth. That's reality.

Sally,

So Web (sans getting a sixteen year old pregnant when he was "with" your mom) turned out to be a pretty okay guy? Actually it sounds like everyone got something out of the deal...

I've heard you talk about your moms hard time with her pregnancies, but the full impact just hit me. She had 8 pregnancies but only two survived? That is really heavy. It's funny because on the one hand you dismiss pregnancy as not involving a child and yet you are fiercely protective of your children. Do you think your mothers losses sort of hardened you, because it was so painful to deal with? I know I'm playing armchair shrink here, but that many deaths must have had some kind of effect. I can't imagine if I had to watch my mother lose 6 of her "children"... and it would explain your incredible loyalty to your own children. (Both the living ones and the ones "You would never give away)...

Sally--

What did you say when you were pregnant and people asked "How's your baby?"

EH

ally~You would rather kill your baby than give it to a family who can responsibly take care of it?Talk about selfish....

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must
die so that you may live as you wish"
~Mother Theresa

Posted by: gg at November 15, 2007 2:16 PM
...............................

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

Guys,

Don't beat up on her. She doesn't believe that they are babies. Let's deal with that, but attacking her isn't cool. I'm more interested in where these feelings are coming from.

So, Sally, you really don't believe that the embryos are babies that just need a little more time to develop? Why is that?

Sally,

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

No you don't seem like it. For all your bravado and hip shootin' you actually sound very sensitive. You're extremely proud of your two kids. I don't believe for an instant that if you thought these were actually babies, that you'd kill them.

Some prochoicers DO argue tho, that baby or not, they have the right to kill them because they are living inside of them. Do you feel that way, or is your support of the abortion choice based on the fact that you do not view them "babies"?

MK, who's beating up on her?

Sally, how about not having sex to begin with?? If you choose to do so, be prepared to deal with a possible pregnancy. You have no right to kill that child via abortion.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 2:33 PM
....................................................................................

Heather, how about you running your life and managing your pregnancies as you see fit. I have every right to run my life and manage my pregnancies as I see fit. Abortion prevents children.

Sally, Prior to coming to Jill's blog, I never knew people who questioned whether an unborn child was human or not. I'm serious, so please forgive my shock over the matter. Even women I knew who have aborted KNEW what they were doing. They knew that they were aborting a human being. Usually this was for convenience.

Heather,

Nobody yet...but I feel it comin' on. lol.

Actually, I probably shouldn't have said anything, it's just that I was having an epiphany and didn't want to get distracted...

Carry on...sorry for buttin' in.

Abortion prevents children?...See. I knew you knew the truth!

Okay, I'm off to work.

Sally,

So Web (sans getting a sixteen year old pregnant when he was "with" your mom) turned out to be a pretty okay guy? Actually it sounds like everyone got something out of the deal...

I've heard you talk about your moms hard time with her pregnancies, but the full impact just hit me. She had 8 pregnancies but only two survived? That is really heavy. It's funny because on the one hand you dismiss pregnancy as not involving a child and yet you are fiercely protective of your children. Do you think your mothers losses sort of hardened you, because it was so painful to deal with? I know I'm playing armchair shrink here, but that many deaths must have had some kind of effect. I can't imagine if I had to watch my mother lose 6 of her "children"... and it would explain your incredible loyalty to your own children. (Both the living ones and the ones "You would never give away)...

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:21 PM
..................................................

Life and reality can 'harden' us MK. Although, I feel that putting away romantic fantasies to be a sign of maturity rather than becoming hardened.
Let's see if I can explain this to you. Mom didn't loose children but rather didn't gain the children hoped for. Terribly dissapointing for mostly dad who really craved a large family. He built a house with 5 bedrooms. Very hard on mom and her body.
I realize today that many believe doctors to be miracle makers and every pregnancy will absolutely produce a child. It's become easy to put the cart before the horse and declare every conceptus a child. It's easy to ignore the very real necessity for the woman's body to succesfuly create and deliver for there to be an actual child and the woman become an actual mother.
I know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Besides my children, I feel fiercely protective over a woman's right to control her own reproduction. No woman should be forced to to take risks with her life or her emotional well being by being forced to gestate.
I don't think that I'm hardened MK. I think compassion should be exhibited to women and their reality of gestational experience respected.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss my feelings and views on the subject.

Sally--

What did you say when you were pregnant and people asked "How's your baby?"

EH

Posted by: EH at November 15, 2007 3:21 PM
.......................................

I cannot recall anyone being so rude to me when I was pregnant. How's my 'baby' what? Developing? Duh, the usual way?
Jeesh! A show of caring would be to inquire after my health and well being. No me. No baby.

I know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Shattered fantasies of what? What the child will become? I'm not following.

I feel fiercely protective over a woman's right to control her own reproduction. No woman should be forced to to take risks with her life or her emotional well being by being forced to gestate.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Forced to gestate? Not following again...sorry, I must be slow today! (and maybe every other day for that matter!)

Guys,

Don't beat up on her. She doesn't believe that they are babies. Let's deal with that, but attacking her isn't cool. I'm more interested in where these feelings are coming from.

So, Sally, you really don't believe that the embryos are babies that just need a little more time to develop? Why is that?

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:25 PM
..........................................................................

Forgive the buliding analogy. Grandpa was a lumber jack/carpetner and my daughter is an architect. Having stated this---
Let's compare the building of a fetus/baby to that of a structure. An architect meets an architect/builder and they colaborate on a building. To me, this is a sperm and ovum meeting and implanting. DNA/blueprint finds constuction sight. The embyonic stage could be likened to the aquiring of the building materials. The fetal stage would be the actual building of the structure. Birth, the building inspection permitting accupancy.
I liken an embryo to a blueprint and some building materials. Perhaps a hoped for baby, an anticipated baby but not a baby yet.

Sally,

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

No you don't seem like it. For all your bravado and hip shootin' you actually sound very sensitive. You're extremely proud of your two kids. I don't believe for an instant that if you thought these were actually babies, that you'd kill them.

Some prochoicers DO argue tho, that baby or not, they have the right to kill them because they are living inside of them. Do you feel that way, or is your support of the abortion choice based on the fact that you do not view them "babies"?

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:28 PM
................................................................

My support of choice is because I deeply believe that no woman should ever be forced to risk their lives, health and well being the way they once were.

Sally, Prior to coming to Jill's blog, I never knew people who questioned whether an unborn child was human or not. I'm serious, so please forgive my shock over the matter. Even women I knew who have aborted KNEW what they were doing. They knew that they were aborting a human being. Usually this was for convenience.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 3:33 PM
...............................................................

What species are these people saying that a human conceptus belongs to? You are referring to a human conceptus when using the term unborn child are you not?
I aborted to avoid a very inconvenient and possibly very dangerous miscarriage. Do you presume to judge who is and who is not to be allowed conveniences?
I say that your computer, cell phone, washer, dryer, microwave, auto and refridgerator must go. No conveniences for you!

Heather,
"rosie, when was she born?"

March 24th

Sally,
"I say that your computer, cell phone, washer, dryer, microwave, auto and refridgerator must go. No conveniences for you!"

That would really suck, but I would live.

know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Shattered fanta