Jill many of us are a disaster away from being homeless. The woman is employable. She'll get back on her feet. I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

What beautiful babies.

Many will say she has nothing to give them.

She gave them their lives.

Well said, Sally.

Additional details about the visit will be made known as soon as they are finalized, meanwhile, if you wish to contact the Papal Visit Office, please call:
212-371-1011 Ext. 7673

http://www.archny.org/news-events/news-press-releases/index.cfm?i=6312

I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

Many would. Many see it as a duty in such situations, like abortion.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

Jacqueline, great post. I agree with you.

I understand where Jill is coming from with this one. We don't want anyone to feel coerced into adoption, and people usually do come to adoption through grief--of infertility and placing a child. But a the same time, adoption is a brave choice that can be positive for everyone. What am I going to tell my daughter, that her birthmom "copped-out" on raising her by "giving her away" (more positive language: "making an adoption plan" "placing for adoption")? No. I'll tell her what firmly believe, her birthmom loved her enough to seek out the family she wished for her to have. She waited two weeks after our baby girl was born, until she was sure she had found the right placement. A single mom already (of a teenage boy) my daughter's birthmom was able to finish college, find a full-time career, and buy a house in the short two years since placing our daughter. When she placed, she was between jobs and on welfare and was at times drinking to excess to suppress her problems. She felt that parenting two children as a single mom, she would stay that way. I know she grieves for the might-have-been, but she made an informed decision to help herself, her son, and our baby girl. And she has told me of her joy in knowing that our baby girl is happy and loved.

I don't mean to say that the mother of triplets in this story should place for adoption. You can't tell another person what their limitations are or what to do with her children, and this mom seems to have the resolve to make this work. I just have to defend adoption. It's been a blessing.

I can't imagine anyone suggesting that she give her children away.

Many would. Many see it as a duty in such situations, like abortion.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 5:15 P
..................................................................

I certainly hope that enough money can be raised to give her and her new family the start they deserve. I most certainly would abort rather than gestate knowing full well I was going to hand the possible infant off like an unwanted puppy.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.

I think we tend to knee-jerk suggest adoption because so much prochoice rhetoric is about how a baby is the most horrible thing than can happen to a woman, that it will totally ruin her life, yada yada yada. So we respond with a "Then let her give the baby to somebody who doesn't think it's vermin."

We have allowed ourselves to get sucked into the "Women abort because babies ruin your life" rhetoric, instead of responding with takes of victorious mothers who overcame.

Sally

Wow. I don't know what to say to that. You just called my daughter an "unwanted puppy." You just compared my daughter's birthmom, a person a respect very much who made the ultimate selfless decision, to a heartless dog owner. You just sought to deliberately invalidate my family. I'm speechless.

EH

I most certainly would abort rather than gestate knowing full well I was going to hand the possible infant off like an unwanted puppy.

Parents make plans in their wills for who would care for their children if they died. They take great care to make sure that somebody would properly look after them. A mother who realistically assesses that she can not provide a baby with what the child needs, and makes arrangements for the child to get that elsewhere, is behaving the same way as a partent who makes such plans in their will. "I can't be there. I'll make sure somebody CAN."

Making an adoption plan isn't like sitting in front of a Wal Mart with the kid in a cradboard box with "Free to good home" written on it in crayon.

I agree it ought not to be used as a permanent solution to a temporary problem -- unemployment or some other rough spot -- but a woman with serious treatment-resistent mental health issues, or who has committed crimes for which she's likely to be incarcerated throughout the baby's childhood, or who has chronic drug or alcohol problems, probably would do well to make an adoption plan.

EH,
That's Sally for you...don't let her upset you...if you look at previous posts on other articles, you'll see what I mean.

I am so happy for you and your daughter! What an absloute blessing she must be for you and this world!!!! God bless her birthmom!!!

Hi Jacque,

this is a real tuffy for Christians ... because in Jesus are we not all 'adopted children of God'? rather than looking only at modern adoption in Western cultures, perhaps we should understand that the huge majority of adopted children were the result of a woman dying in birthing and the Father being unable to raise a family alone.

Personally, I think anything is better than murdering a child! If adoption is the "magical solution" compared to abortion, then bring on adoption! I really don't know what parts of the article I want to pick apart and contest, because I don't know where to start. However, I really haven't given it much thought until I read it, so maybe I'll let it sink in for a while...

Sally

Wow. I don't know what to say to that. You just called my daughter an "unwanted puppy." You just compared my daughter's birthmom, a person a respect very much who made the ultimate selfless decision, to a heartless dog owner. You just sought to deliberately invalidate my family. I'm speechless.

EH

Posted by: EH at November 14, 2007 6:00 PM
................................

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

"I believe it's in the best interests of the children to be with their biological parents, and it's our obligation to come along side those parents and help meet their needs. After all, there are always going to be people with more money, more prestige, more power - but babies aren't sold to the highest bidder."

Can I ask a question? What about people like my cousin who can't have children? Her and her husband plan to adopt in the future. Are they just SOL because "children should stay with their birth parents" I know a couple who became pregnant before they were married, they thought the best choice for everyone was to give the child up for adoption. A few years later they got married and currently have four other children. they have reconnected with her daughter (when the daughter turned 18). When i asked the mother if she regretted her decision she said that she did not.

Personally, I think anything is better than murdering a child! If adoption is the "magical solution" compared to abortion, then bring on adoption! I really don't know what parts of the article I want to pick apart and contest, because I don't know where to start. However, I really haven't given it much thought until I read it, so maybe I'll let it sink in for a while...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:14 PM
............................................................

Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:16 PM

No, you said you would rather abort. How the heck would you know how you would feel..you would kill the child before any feeling raced through your ice cold heart.

Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM

Nice try, Sally.

I can't really say I agree that children should be raised by their birth parents in some cases.

I think a good option would be using "open adoption" so that the birth mother may still have contact with her child(ren) in the future but have the primary care of the child(ren) be done by the adoptive parents. This may ease any guilt of "dumping" their child some birth women may have.

I've heard many, many good things that have come from open adoptions as opposed to closed adoptions.

That's exactly what I would feel if I were to create a child and then hand the responsibility of raising it off to someone else. I would have to be heartless to do so. Sorry if that offends you. You are responsible for your feelings of familial validation. Not I.

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:16 PM

No, you said you would rather abort. How the heck would you know how you would feel..you would kill the child before any feeling raced through your ice cold heart.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM
...............................................

I've been a mother for over 30 years Laura. I would have never given my children away. I would abort an unwanted pregnancy rather than pawn my responsibility off onto another. Actually, I would have liked more children.

Who would suggest murdering a child when an abortion could be had to prevent there ever being a child?

Posted by: Sally at November 14, 2007 6:20 PM

Nice try, Sally.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:30 PM
........................................

Try at what Laura?

Rae,
"I can't really say I agree that children should be raised by their birth parents in some cases"

Yikes! agreed! That's another can of worms tho...

I can hear a chorus of pro-aborts screeching she had no right to bring 3 babies into this world when she can't even take care of herself. I can also hear the still, quiet voices of pro-lifers thinking she should have placed her babies for adoption, as she has no means to care for them.

Perhaps, Jill, but Pro-Choicers are for herchoice.

My bad, Sally..it just seems from your posts that abortion is always the best answer you can give, and any pro-life or anti-abortion comment is argued by you. For what it's worth, I apologize.

Hey, If you can't have more children, there's always puppies!!! (not a dig at you or your comment...people always tell me to have more kids, but I tell them I'd rather have another puppy!!!!Not kidding!)

And for the record, my parents were in the adoption process when my mom finally got pregnant with me. Once they found that my mom was most likely going to carry the pregnancy to term, they quit the adoption process.

I was really sad to hear that, knowing that some where some kid almost had fantastic, loving parents but then I came along and screwed that up for them.

I just don't want to see adoption as the pro-life abortion. A cop-out instead of supporting pregnant women.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't want to support other people's expensive hobbies. Do you want to support mine?
I found a third horse that I'd like, why don't you all scurry to raise the money for vet bills, shoes, feed and board? Heck, why don't you make my mortgage payments while you're at it. That way I could spend all day caring for them properly.
If we're all for denying subsidized medical care for the children of responsible working Americans, we should CERTAINLY cut off funds to this chick.

Wow Laura, expensive hobbies? You are just ridiculous with that. And quite insulting. I wouldn't call my 24 hour job a hobby. But how would you know anything about it? You don't even have children. And comparing owning a pet to having 3 children and being homeless is yet again ridiculous. But that's typical of you PCer's..comparing animals to kids. I, for one, am relieved you don't have any children as you will have no one to pass off your idiotic beliefs onto.

*shrugs*

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm an adopted child. Was adopted when I was 2 months old, closed adoption. My birth mother was 16, I think? I'm not sure. But either way, I have a great life. I love my adoptive parents very much, have a healthy curiosity about my birth parents, but then, don't really place much emphasis on it. I think it's vital that women have all the choices possible. Abortion, adoption, and raising a child are all viable options and all options that I will support.

And before you go off on "BUT IF YOUR MOM HAD AN ABORTION YOU WOULDN'T EXIST"...yeah. I wouldn't. I also wouldn't know or care because I never would have understood or comprehended or felt or anything. I wouldn't have cared.

"I'm PRO-LIFE, I'm not pro-adoption."

Wow, imagine that. Sort of the way that I'm PRO-CHOICE, not pro-abortion.

Rae, 7:16PM

I wouldn't worry. You were blessed with wonderful parents and them with you. Another couple who could not have their own child took the one your parents would have. It sounds like everyone came out a winner.

I also must agree with your 6:41 post wholeheartedly. Bearing children does not make one fit to raise them. I have seen so many children that should have been placed in adoptive homes. Children are often produced and kept to fulfill some emotional need, and when they don't, wind up in foster care or living with unfit parents. There are many more adoption options available these days. I know couples involved in open adoption. The birthmothers selected them. I'm sure these must have been heartbreaking decisions that the mothers, as well as the fathers, made in the best interests of their children. I know what joy they brought to these couples and what wonderful lives and opportunities these children have had. To me, this was the ultimate love and complete lack of selfishness.

First let me say that this is Jacquies post, not Jills. So I don't know whether these are Jill's sentiments or not...

Then let me say, that I love you Jacquie, and I hear you...adoption should not be used as the end all be all for "surprise" babies.

Now let me say...

My mother and father were unable to have children. My mother would have had 12 if she could. She waited 5 years to get my brother. One of the first adopted from Canada. Then she waited another 5 for me. She used to take a baby doll to bed with her at night, praying that when she woke up, the phone would ring and she would have the real thing. She even sent a message to Padre Pio via a priest that was going to see him, to ask if she would ever get a baby.

No child was ever wanted more than I (and my siblings) were.

My birth mother, as I have shared before, is plagued by so many mental illnesses I can't even remember them all, not to mention she is an alcoholic. My birth sister was raped for 4 years by her step father, and my birth mother did nothing to stop it. My birth brother is incarcerated (possibly for life) for repeatedly molesting small children.

Yes, I would hate to see women that could raise their own children with just a wee bit of help, giving their kids away...but I would also hate to see children being kept by parents who are simply not able to raise them with all that they deserve.

I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

Always, always, we must think of what is best for the children.

Sally, the only "good" thing my mother ever did was to hand me over to June and Ward Cleaver. If that means she treated me like a puppy, then throw me a bone.

My birth father got his mistress pregnant at the same time my mother was pregnant with me. The mistress aborted her child. My mother gave me to two of the most wonderful people that God ever created. I don't care what her motives were, she gave me the gift of life, and the gift of an amazing home, and I can never thank her enough!

arf.

MK, Jacque, the baby is coming really, really soon! Please pray, pray pray! Love you all!

Oh Yeah!!!!!! How's it going? I'm sooooooo excited! Tell her to put her chin to her chest. And keep telling her to LOOK IN YOUR EYES....

Bobby, even as an agnostic, I am sending good thoughts to your wife, daughter, and you. Here's hoping....

As sure as anything, you will great parents and your daughter will be a great one.

Best,

Doug

Bobby B., everything will be okay:}

MK, awesome post by you.

YES, BOBBY!!! God bless you, your wife & your little Bambino...You all are in my thoughts & prayers (actually, have been for days!!!)

:)

Why Dougster,

Thanks. (I gotta admit, not that I want to start up again, but every once in awhile, I miss our "debates"...)

Excellent post, MK. Sally, killing the child would be the most irresponsible thing that one could do. Adoption is the most unselfish choice.

Whoooooooo! Good luck to you, Bobby! New baby on the way!!!

mk,
so sad, yet so beautiful! Your mother must be an amazing woman..the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you know! :)

So sad to hear this comment come from a person who councils suffering women in crisis situations.
I feel sorry for the women who are not getting good council/encouragemen to do the right thing
and offer their child a two parent, loving, homes.� There is no easy solution to women who find themselves pregnant and alone. I, as a women whose been through it, agrees that ADOPTION IS THE LOVING OPTION!
Sure, I would have loved to keep my child and live on the mercy of others, but how long will that have lasted? Eventually, mothers must get
employment and the most affordable agency would have raised my child.� How is that good for a child?
These children, if not tossed at the grandparents to raise, usually end up being put into childcare; given to unloving, not really caring persons raise Monday through Friday?� How sad to have to wake a sleeping child up at the crack of dawn and drop it off at daycare only to pick it up at 5 just so one can watch it grow.� Who will teach the child how to love?� Don't children deserve a father? Are they that easily dispensable?� What about the statistics that show single mothers raising male children have a 75% chance of the child being incarcerated before the age of 18.��I thank God every day that I was given the grace to give my son up for adoption to a two parent home. I pity these women who choose to have open adoptions and screw up their child with a third opinion in matters, instead of giving him/her a chance at a normal life. �� Further studies show how a two parent family is beneficial to a child and there are no two ways about it.� I think that is why it was His plan from the start.� Not one, not three, not two men, not two women, he created them male and female.�� I pray that we can raise our children in the faith of the One True Church that He left us. Children need to know from the start that they are loved by Jesus, and He will not leave them. Although life is difficult, He shows us the way through His church. Even though we falter, He is there to pour His Mercy on His penitent children.
God bless all the birth moms who suffer the loss, a micro share of what Our Heavenly Mother must have felt. This pain,like Hers can be offered for all. God bless the birth mom for offering her child to a two parent family and saving them from the sin of masturbating into a test tube. A sin God punished by death in the Old Testament.
God bless the adoptive parents who open their hearts up to these little ones instead of taking matters into their own hands.
May we all live to know, love and serve the Lord, even if there is a little pain.

MK, I don't think we will have any shortage of future debates.

Where you said: I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

-- I certainly agree with that, and there is more than just "looking for argument" - there is also seeing a huge amount of gut-basic truth in your post, and I am grateful for that.

It's fascinating to hear where you come from and where we all come from. And I'm really happy for Bobby and his wife.

Doug

And comparing owning a pet to having 3 children and being homeless is yet again ridiculous. But that's typical of you PCer's..comparing animals to kids. I, for one, am relieved you don't have any children as you will have no one to pass off your idiotic beliefs onto.

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 14, 2007 7:30 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really?
I have a rescue for adult cats and another for German Shepherds. If that homeless woman came to me and asked to adopt on of my charges, do you think I should hand one over to her?
When I was an animal control officer we would often seize the animals from homes that weren't fit for dogs, chickens and goats. When I'd go for the 6-day, 6-week, and 6-month follow-ups, the CHILDREN WOULD STILL BE LIVING THERE. CPS wasn't given the orders to grab them.
Do I compare animals to children? No.
I think we live in a society that is often FAR kinder to animals than it is to kids.

Laura,
I agree! Hey, just wondering...do vets do abortions on dogs? Seriously..I thought about that a while ago & remembered after reading your post @ 8:55. I was going to research it on the web, but it freaked me out a bit...

I wasn't aware that Bobby was expecting a girl. How cool is that?

I can smell spoiled child, and she hasn't even arrived yet. I'm thinkin' diva...

Speakin' of "divas" - I gotta show you all a picture of my niece Isabella. How does one post pictures here?

Laura,
I agree! Hey, just wondering...do vets do abortions on dogs? Seriously..I thought about that a while ago & remembered after reading your post @ 8:55. I was going to research it on the web, but it freaked me out a bit...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 9:01 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We spay pregnant animals every day at our practice. No animal is allowed to leave a California shelter for adoption unless it's spayed/neutered.
It's lookin' like November 2008 will bring a new law that says you can't OWN an intact housepet in California unless you have a kennel/cattery license. I lobby like a madwoman.

In our society we say we embrace diversity, but in many ways we don't. There is this notion that if you do this or that "right" you will be in control of your life. However, as Sally pointed out many are just a disaster away from homelessness.

I feel many people are derided for not being in control of everything. Similarly people are pressured to make things work that are not working. I know a couple who got married and used birth control and still had three kids in five years. One of their family members said they were foolish and couldn't afford that. They tried to control the situation but couldn't. They were good parents but their plans were not effective. Their life didn't fit someone else's ideal. Several years after I got married we decided to start our family and about two years later, our son was born. We thought soon we would have another, but nothing ever happened so we figured, oh well. Until after 17 years of marriage, surprise! I felt totally out of control. I even sought counseling. So now we are pushing 50 and we have a one year old. My brother got married a month before I did. His daughter is in college. My son is in diapers. My aunt wondered why I would arrange my life that way. But I didn't arrange it that way. My pregnancy was a big wake up call to my friends who knew it could have happened to them. Two of them went back to using contraception. After years of good planning, I realized that I was not in control. Control is an illusion.

Clearly the mother of triplets recognizes she is not in control and accepts it. I know we all wish her well, although there was a time not too long ago when I might also have thought she should have been more in control. Now I know better.

We spay pregnant animals every day at our practice. No animal is allowed to leave a California shelter for adoption unless it's spayed/neutered.
It's lookin' like November 2008 will bring a new law that says you can't OWN an intact housepet in California unless you have a kennel/cattery license. I lobby like a madwoman.

Posted by: Laura at November 14, 2007 9:06 PM

That is great! We have to get that law here. People don't know that it costs the gov't and private agencies a ton of money to collect, destroy and dispose of the millions, yeah millions of unwanted cats and dogs. Prevention is better than cure.

Laura,
Dumb question, I know, but are you lobbying for or against this law?

Bobby, Good-Luck!

Having worked with both birthmothers and adoptive parents, I see the pain the birthmothers face in grieving the loss of their baby. I worked solely in open adoptions, but even in those cases the birthmothers regret lost motherhood. The children struggle with understanding why their birthmothers chose to place and why their fathers didn't seem to care much at all.

Jill, this is a great topic. I had a girlfriend in Canada back in 1993, and she had given a boy up for adoption years before, when she was still a teenager. The rules were that when he ws 18, he could look up his birth mother - and that time was a year away and my girlfriend was worried about it.

I could understand her being worried what would happen, but I sure can also understand wanting to find out who one's real mom and dad are.

And - no question about it - that feeling of "why didn't my mom and dad want me?" must surely be brutal for many adopted kids. In the end I think it's better for them to know, if they want to know.

Great, great movie - "Antwone Fisher." Have you seen it?

Doug

And Hippie - great post from you too!

Doug said "I had a girlfriend in Canada back in 1993, and she had given a boy up for adoption years before, when she was still a teenager. The rules were that when he ws 18, he could look up his birth mother - and that time was a year away and my girlfriend was worried about it."

Don't leave me hanging....did he ever look her up???

Laura,
Dumb question, I know, but are you lobbying for or against this law?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 9:11 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm working to pass the law. My experiences with backyard breeders are not good.

In 1982 I was single and pregnant and at that point my boyfriend and I vascilated for a few days between adoption and keeping our baby. I decided to keep him altho he wanted me to put him up for adoption. This was in the 1st trimester and I made that decision, never looking back, focusing on the new life I was bringing into the world. Mind you, we were considered "unwed mothers" back then and it was much harder on me with peoples' predjudices to go thru during my pregnancy than it is for single moms from this generation.
I would never stress to a single mom that her only option was to give up her child. We are such fragile beings and I could never live with myself if I had given up my son.

Laura, my girlfriend dumped me before I found out if her son found her.

I think it's a good law....a license would show responsibility & one would have to be educated in the responsibility to get the license, right?

I think we need "mother's license, too!" (sorry, couldn't help myself!)

Doug,

I'm sorry :(
Didn't mean to pry....

Ha! Laura - I agree with that, to a large degree. Having kids, like getting married, is a huge deal IMO and I think it's hard to know yourself and your partner enough to be sure it's a good thing, so at the least you better be darn sure beforehand....

Laura, not a problem - it was long ago. She and I will both be 50 in 2009, and I've thought of calling her up to see what happened.

Rather a strange and sad story - she had one younger brother who had a girlfriend, and in late 1992 he secretly took one of their dad's guns (the father was a prominent member of the city police) and went for a drive with his girlfriend, eventually pulling over and telling her he wanted to watch him kill himself. He never fired the gun, and eventually the girl persuaded him to call the cops. Royal Canadian Mounted Police came, and tried to talk him out of the car. He wouldn't do it but eventually consented to talking to his parents. Later, he let the girlfriend go and surrendered.

The girlfriend had been a volunteer for "SSAV" - something like that, which stood for Services for Sexual Assault Victims. She ended up suing him (I think with considerable urging from some other women at SSAV) and in the court hearings it came out that he had been sexually abused by an uncle when he was 6 and 7 years old - the uncle being the brother of his mother.

This was played out in the newspapers and it was a horrible thing for the family. My girlfriend was consumed with hatred for her uncle, and she was rather a "hard" person anyway. It was tough being with her.

Not to say I hadn't made mistakes with her - I surely had and looking back it's no surprise now that we broke up - I think it would have come even without all the bad stuff in her family. I feel it's a good thing we didn't get married.

You never know what's going to happen....

Doug

*claps for Diane!*

Doug,
wow..that really is sad. Maybe instead of looking her up you should leave well enough alone. But, hey, what do I know? I can't believe it was played out in the papers like that. Tough for the family in the first place w/o the whole country knowing! Life is funny like that, isn't it? It's definately like a box of chocolate!
I try not to take it so seriously, though. A woman I work with with once said, "it's not worth worrying about if it's not going to matter in 100 years, anyway!

Hello all. Thank you so much for all your kind words and support. We had our baby! She is PERFECT! We named her Gianna, 7.3 lbs. The delivery was intense! My wife went from 2cm to 9cm in less than an hour! Then it was just an explosion of excitement. So we're just chillin now. I'll talk to ya'll later. God love ya'll!

^5 Bobby!

(High-Five)

Bobby, Congratulations! I love that name!!

WOOO HOOOO GO BOBBY, THERE'S A NEW BABY IN THE BLOGS!!!

I BETTER GET TO SEE SOME PICTURES. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

*dances around*

NEW BABY NEW BABY NEW BABY!!

Heather, it's a Hebrew name, mebbe Greek too. "God is gracious."

Congratulations Bobby!

Whewhew Bobby!!! Thank you God for perfect little Gianna!!! Really love the name! Get some rest & post some pics soon...ENJOY!!!!

Doug, thank you.

femi-nazi humor video.

http://feministing.com/archives/008088.html

I would have kicked this guys butt.

Bobby, on night my first daughter was born, I couldn't let her leave. I slept with her on my chest and listened to her breath all night. It was probably the happiest moment of my life, and we are still close today, despite the challenges of the teenage years.

So, the years go by so fast, enjoy every moment you hold her in your arms..

I think this is a great post. I've been coming to the same difficult conclusion about adoption over the years. Yes, sometimes parents really *can't* take care of their children, so adoption does have a place. But the arguments about trying to help women improve their life circumstances so they don't feel the need to abort apply to adoption as well.

There was an article about international adoption in the most recent Mother Jones that was absolutely heartbreaking. It was from the perspective of an American family wondering if they'd "stolen" their daughter from her Guatemalan mother, who loved her very much but was just too poor to raise her the way she felt the girl deserved. I thought about my baby girl while I was reading it, and just cried and cried.

One of the points made in the article was that parents spend many thousands of dollars on these adoptions, when a fraction of that would be enough to allow the child to stay with his or her parents (in some cases). That's tragic.

OHHHH BOBBY...I'm so glad for you! Gianna is a GORGEOUS name! I bet she's adorable...and what a blessing!!! I'm glad everything went great AND fast..lucky lucky! I second Lyssie's request for pictures. I love babies...cherish this age..you go to sleep one night and wake up the next morning and they're all grown up!! It's heartbreaking and glorious all at the same time!

Heather ~ thanks: *claps for Diane!*

He is now 25 with a 5 year old son of his own.
I am really proud of him. Right now he is in New Orleans helping Hurricane Katrina victims with rebuilding their homes and their lives.
I raised him alone too.

What is the moral of the story of Doug and the "hard person girlfriend"?
1, When the going gets tuff, Doug gets going.
2. The girlfriend didn't need a pessimistic personality around her any longer,she was gloomy and sad from her adoption decision. And her brother being possibly incarcerated over his suicide attempt . Who needs a another pessimist around her, she thought.
3. Doug couldn't stand her pessimism and left her from not needing to hear anymore pessimism about her brother and uncle. Much less her anxiety about her previous life decisions coming back to either love her or berate her, and Doug always saying, I don't know, Maybe soo, who cares, I'm agnostic, except for the right of women to become murderers.
4.The sex got pessimistic for Doug, and he left.
5.The sex was always pessimistic for the girlfriend, from Doug reminding her about abortion being a right decision to have offered to women. Doug was being Doug, unable to think beyond his principles and how they emotionally affect people.
6. No one needs a self proclaimed skeptic, not being skeptical about women having the choice to become murderers of their own flesh and blood.
7. Doug is a hypocrite and she couldn't stand hypocrites being around her anymore. Especially a pompous hypocrite who does not think he is a hypocrite when his agnosticism vanishes completely concerning his allowing women to become baby killers.
7. She became a Christian, and left Doug for one who is not such a pessimistic personality about not knowing for sure. But knowing for sure, without a doubt, that women should be allowed to kill.
8.Doug is a realistic hard person and knows how to manipulate a hard person to get what Doug wants. She wasn't, and left Doug in a flash of vanishing agnosticism about Doug.
10. Obviously she never wanted to see or hear from Doug again.
Realistic enough for ya Doug? Or is that pessimistic enough for ya Doug?

Notice the JOY we experienced when The Kid announced Gianna's arrival?

Yay!!!

Contrast that with the sober faces coming out of the abortion facilities.

*sigh* What we lose out on sometimes...

Bambino,
Gianna. Any connection to St. Gianna?

yllas: When the going gets tuff, Doug gets going.

Nope - it was her decision.

yllas, despite your pessimism, the fact remains that for some women having an abortion is the best thing in their particular situation.

I agree with Jacqueline when she says that we should also try to help people in difficult circumstances(financial) so that they can kept their child. I agree with Rae,Mary,and Rosie that some children are better off being adopted. I don't think we should sacrifice a child's wellbeing for the sake of keeping a biological family together. For example, I grew up in a horrible home and I often wished that I would have been given up for adoption. On the same token though, I also fantasized that my parents weren't my biological parents and that my biological parents would come and rescue me.

Morning everyone! Again, thank you all so much for your words, prayers, and experiences that you have shared. Yes Carder, we did name her after St. Gianna, a very pro-life saint. I'll try and post a couple pics later in the day if that's okay with Jill. God love you all.

Congratulations Bobby and Wife! I'm so happy for you both!

Please do post pictures, Bobby! :)

Praise God!

Another Gianna!

My Confirmation name!

Congrats!

Congratulations Bobby!!

jasper, that guy needs an arse whupping, and he also needs a psychiatrist.

You could have continued the relationship Doug, but your a person who leaves when the going gets tuff. You wanted her to quit the relationship because the going got ruff Doug. You sly devil, Doug.
There was nothing to gain for you Doug, after you discovered her problems in life were not your problems, being a realist, that you are Doug. True or false Doug? And being realistic, Doug, writing with all realism one must have, what motivated you to have a relationship with such a person? Her intellect or bubbly personality which exuded optimism. Or her pessimism which you shared with her and fed off each other? Bet it was the sex, Doug. And when that was weighed againest her problems in life, you did the most realistic thing a narcissistic, pessimistic person could decide to do, make life more miserable for her until she left you.
My list of realistic reasons for your failure of being with another person still stands, except for reason #3.
I stand by reason #4, because Doug did leave for reason 4, which can't be admitted in public. It makes Doug, less of a Doug, in the public eye of Doug.

Maybe the moral of the story should be.
Doug is a tuff realist, taking on such a women with such problems in life. Or, then again, what type of person would even begin a relationship with such a person with such problems in life and think it would last. Maybe that was the point of why Doug began the relationship in the first place.

jasper, that guy is just the type that SOME pro aborts love.

Can I ask a question? What about people like my cousin who can't have children?

There is no fairness, rhyme or reason with infertility. Why the crack prostitute can get pregnant and leave her baby in the dumpster while loving, stable couples can't conceive is a sad thing. But no one "owes" their baby to your cousin. Like I said, they'll always be someone better off to raise a family- more money, for instance. But that doesn't mean that the poor, the single, the young OWE it to the infertile to place their babies with them.

By the way, there are foster children waiting for homes right now. Even INFANTS. The problem with the 10 million waiting couples is that they want a healthy WHITE infant. Something that looks like them, that they can mold into their image. If you cousin wants children to love and raise, there are PLENTY.

Her and her husband plan to adopt in the future.

Good for them! There are many AIDS orphans who need homes.

Are they just SOL because "children should stay with their birth parents"

Adoption is for parents who absolutely can't raise their children. It's not legal abandonment. It's not "giving a baby away." I feel the pain your infertile cousin feels, but once again, he/she is not OWED a child.

I know a couple who became pregnant before they were married, they thought the best choice for everyone was to give the child up for adoption.

The right language is PLACE for adoption.

A few years later they got married and currently have four other children. they have reconnected with her daughter (when the daughter turned 18). When i asked the mother if she regretted her decision she said that she did not.

Good for the mom. There are many birthmoms that made the hard, RIGHT choice to place. I'm not downplaying that. But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad.

I don't think we should sacrifice a child's wellbeing for the sake of keeping a biological family together.

I agree, Carrie. But I think there is some intrinsicly valuable about biological ties. Especially since adoptees, no matter how great their adoptive home always inevitably wonder, "Mom, Dad, why didn't you want me?"

I agree, EH:

We don't want anyone to feel coerced into adoption, and people usually do come to adoption through grief--of infertility and placing a child. But a the same time, adoption is a brave choice that can be positive for everyone.

I think it's important that people see reality- that adoption is not a magical process. There is always grief from someone in the adoption process.

yllas,
I think your being a bit hard on Doug. When I first met some of the losers I dated, they didn't disclose all of their "issues". It always seemed like a "match made in Heaven". The issues just came out as time went along, and I realized the relationships were not what God intended for me. If Doug made a decision to bail on a relationship that wasn't going to work out, God bless him! Why stay in a relationship that is just going to make you miserable? That's no way to live! Life is way too short! God wants us to be happy.

Jacqueline...I totally agree with you. If people were more willing to adopt children of different races...there would be a lot less foster kids. My daughter is bi-racial (I'm sure you've seen the pics) and I think not wanting a child because of the color of their skin is DUMB. They must not really want a child that badly, because all children are wonderful. There's a couple 2 houses down that have 2 black twin sisters who are adopted obviously and THAT brings such joy to my heart. I wish people could get over their stupid issues and look at the big picture. ALL children need somebody to love them, no matter what race they are.

Go check out the new movie Bella, in theatres this weekend! It's an edifying story of the unmitigated value and dignity of human life.

Elizabeth, I agree.

Well AB,
I am just being a realist, just as Doug is.
Fact are facts. Doug did nothing but leave a women who was in the middle of issues which define you as a person.
People lash out at other people when they are having "issues". Fact is, those issues which are mentioned by Doug, will have, and have become the past. Ever been around people who are sick? Get away, leave me alone, let me die.
What we have seen from Doug, is the person who leaves such people in the middle of their suffering. Get out Doug. Leave me alone, Doug.
And sure enough, right in the middle of her suffering, Doug took the easy way out.
Maybe AB, you missed the point about Jesus.
Now, if one is a Christian, one must suffer for another, for the true good of another,or one is just a sunshine Christian.
When the cross was coming for Doug, Doug got out as fact as Doug could take his agnostic, narcissistic, pessimistic personality, outta there. One does not leave another with "issues" such as Doug faced. Every "issue" was not Doug's problems, which made the "getting out" a blessing for Doug. He was going to be blessed with happiness from getting away from a suffering women.
You think about It AB.
Ever met such a man?
After the fog clears and you review what happen, you look around and Doug is gone.
Which is why she never wanted to hear or see from that silly agnostic again. Only that silly agnostic Doug, is sure and dogmatic about allowing women to kill. What a insult Doug was to her, and her child who might not love her, when they met. She knew exactly what Doug was. When the going got tuff, Doug got going.

jasper, that guy needs an arse whupping, and he also needs a psychiatrist.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 8:51 AM
jasper, that guy is just the type that SOME pro aborts love.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 9:01 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have either of you morons ever seen Da Ali G Show? Ever seen Borat?
The guy in the video clip is Sasha Baron Cohen, he's hysterical, and the whole thing was for a laugh.
You two REALLY need to get out more...

I like Borat.

Laura, that ugly goof went to a pro life rally, and deliberately insulted people. Kind of like "Stuttering John" from Howard Stern.

yllas,
That's quite a stretch! What an assumption..I don't recall Doug ever specifying WHY the relationship ended or who called it off for that matter. Give the guy a break!

Besides, it's not funny to joke about the death of unborn children. I'd say that guy needs to get out more. C'mon, he's hanging out at abortion rallies????

Laura, that ugly goof went to a pro life rally, and deliberately insulted people. Kind of like "Stuttering John" from Howard Stern.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 10:18 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was funny when Chris Rock slammed pro-choice rallies, and it was funny when Cohen slammed pro-life rallies.
When those ladied started singing that hymn and he broke into beatbox, I almost DIED...

Well, Chris Rock did say that he goes to PC rallies to pick up tramps. I did crack up at that one.

At least Chris Rock goes for a reason. He's looking for a "loose" chick.

Heather,
So Chris Rock's comments are proof that many PC'ers are sleazes, huh?

When those ladied started singing that hymn and he broke into beatbox, I almost DIED...

Posted by: Laura at November 15, 2007 10:24 AM*************************************************************************************************** Did you see how calm they were? Pro lifers are very tolerant.

AB Laura, the PC crowd just loves him.

Doug,
"Heather, it's a Hebrew name, mebbe Greek too. "God is gracious."

It is the female version of "John" in Italian.

rosie, thank you.:}

Maybe the dorky rapper was hoping to find a date.

AB Laura, Hey. If any of us were to say that abortion patients were "tramps," we would really get it with both barrels. Let Chris Rock say such things, and it's a royal SCREAM!

The women who was suffering called it off according to the dogmatist Doug.
In the middle of her mental anguish, despair, hopelessness about her brother,seeing her child she gave away, and her future, she gave a reality check to Doug.
She checked his reality, and he failed her miserably, which made her know exactly what she was bedding down with.
So maybe the moral of the story is;
When your suffering, tell a loved one to get out, and if they do, call Doug, he knows what being a man is all about.

Heather,
I notice that people aren't as quick to confront people who are out-spoken like Cris Rock. Pro-lifers are so docile, who would think twice about screaming at them?

Bobby,
Congradulations! Having a girl is absolutely wonderful! Buying clothes for them is so fun,lol!

rosie, right!

AB Laura, Hey. If any of us were to say that abortion patients were "tramps," we would really get it with both barrels. Let Chris Rock say such things, and it's a royal SCREAM!

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 10:48 AM

How 'bout it! But the good news is, is that usually these contraversial PR stunts come back to bite them in the "you know what". Judgement Day is going to be a hoot, huh?

yes, indeed!

I hope Bobby's baby is doing okay!

Hey Heather. She's doing very well, thanks. She is currently attempting to nurse, although she seems to prefer to suck her own hand. What a silly little gal!

Bobby, I just had a girl in April. It's scary at first, but you will be okay.

BOBBY! You must be soooooo happy...I'm happy for you guys! Thank you so much for keeping us posted...I kept getting chills when I would read your posts. That was so nice of you to include us in your tremendous experience. You're going to be such a great dad!
Thanks again!

Jacqueline,

Please don't put words in my mouth.

1. I never said my cousin was infertile. I said she couldn't have children. If she became pregnant, it would more than likely kill her.

2. I never said that anyone "owed" my cousin and her husband anything. I just got the sense from your post that you believe birth mothers should keep their children no matter what. I think that is untrue when there are more responsible people out there to raise a child.

3. I never said she wouldn't adopt a child of another race, nor a child that wasn't an infant. I am not sure what her and her husband plan to do.

4. I also never said that poor people who become pregnant need and must PLACE (happy now) their child up adoption and give them to .

5. I also never said it was anyone's duty to "give" my cousin a child.

"But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad."

Wrong, it says they looked at their life and thought to themselves, right now we feel the best choice for our child is for them to be with parents than can support them better than we can. It's not like they became pregnant and said, "we're young, ummm not married, not finically stable, so i guess its our "duty" to place our child up for adoption. "

Lastly Jacqueline, is there a reason you didn't address MK's beautiful post?

Congrats Bobby! How excited you must be!

Hello there JM. Have you driven home yet?

Bobby,
When she is hungry she will eat, she may just want to suck on something but not be hungry. I was really concerned about my daughter eating enough at first but not anymore, she is 7 months and 18 lbs!

rosie, I didn't know you had a 7 month old!! I do too!

Wow, Heather...your daughter is already 7 months! How time flies.

Bethany, hi. Yes. On the 19th.

I remember when I was nursing mine, and he didn't want to eat right away. The Dr. told me that babies have a "stockpile" of food in them to last a few days after they're born ...so, don't worry!!!

Okay, JM-

1. I never said my cousin was infertile. I said she couldn't have children. If she became pregnant, it would more than likely kill her.

Same thing.

2. I never said that anyone "owed" my cousin and her husband anything.

Good. Because they aren't.

I just got the sense from your post that you believe birth mothers should keep their children no matter what.

Then don't put words in my mouth. I've worked in adoption and agreed with the rationale behind most of the placements. I just see coercion behind adoption like their is coercion behind abortion.

I think that is untrue when there are more responsible people out there to raise a child.

And who's the judge of that? Should someone who is not responsible enough to pay their bills on time then supposed to place their child with those that do? See the line you're walking?

3. I never said she wouldn't adopt a child of another race, nor a child that wasn't an infant. I am not sure what her and her husband plan to do.

My point is that they's NOT SOL as you claim. If they don't want a pink, healthy infant, they have a myraid of options.

4. I also never said that poor people who become pregnant need and must PLACE (happy now) their child up adoption and give them to .

No, but you said, "But what about those that can't have children!" as if it's the duty of those that can to provide children to those that can't.

5. I also never said it was anyone's duty to "give" my cousin a child.

It's implied. If people don't give your cousin a child, they're SOL, right? That's what you said.

"But this value that says that young, poor or single people have the DUTY to give babies to married, richer, older people is both sick and sad."

Wrong, it says they looked at their life and thought to themselves, right now we feel the best choice for our child is for them to be with parents than can support them better than we can.

Or, it says that they feel desperate that their only option for their children is placement. In that case, they need SUPPORT.

It's not like they became pregnant and said, "we're young, ummm not married, not finically stable, so i guess its our "duty" to place our child up for adoption. "

No- it's pressed upon them, much like abortion.

Lastly Jacqueline, is there a reason you didn't address MK's beautiful post?

I'll do that right now.

I agree with MK completely! I'm not making a blanket statement against adoption (In fact, Jill and I debated about the headline because that's not the point of my post).

I'm not condemning adoption. I love adoption. But people pressure birth mom's into it in situations where it's not needed because they think it's best for the baby and---it's easier than helping the birthmother out. And that traumtizes mother and child. There is also an idea that married, stable people "deserve" babies and unmarried, unstable people to not. That's not true. No one deserves children- it's a gift of God that He gives as He sees fit. As my mother explained when I asked as a child while the best would-be moms and dads couldn't have kids, she said, "God reserves those people to adopt all the children in most need of those parents."

Adoption is for such situations where the parents can not parent, not when the parents feel like a bigger house or more money is better for their child than their biological family. MK's birthmom was not down on her luck- she was mentally ill and not capable of raising a child (as evidenced by MK's birthsister's trauma).

Placing MK was a wonderful, heroic act. Most adoptions are. My heart pains for those that AREN'T.

I need to respond to the issues of race in adoption that are going around. My daughter is AA, and yes, we did have an easier time adopting because of her race. But, there are a lot of issues here. I am approached weekly, sometimes even daily, by people who want to talk about adoption or talk about race or even talk about my infertility issues. I am confident in talking about all of this with strangers, but it is simply not for everyone. Wanting to have a family that "matches" may not mean you are racist, it may just mean that you are not ready to be a "conspicuous family." Also, if you have racist family members it would not be responsible to adopt transracially knowing that your child would be subjected to repeated racism from those close to you. I wrote a detailed article on this subject for my blog wwww.kiddobeans.com, so check out my additional comments there.

Re: foster care. This is a completely different situation from open infant adoption. Making a decision to adopt is not the same as making a decision to foster to adoption from DCFS. The goal of DCFS is to keep biological families together. This could mean years of uncertainty as court cases go back and forth and the biological family does or does not meet the criteria set for them to resume guardianship. Even if adoption does take place, it is after years of stress and uncertainty. If the biological family is actually qualified to parent, that is hard enough, but suppose they are not? The child, who has been YOUR child for years, could be right back in the system. You are also facing parenting children with various levels of abuse, abandonement issues, and neglect. DCFS also tries to keep siblings together, so available children may come in groups of 2 or 3 or 5 of various ages and abilities. Are you ready to jump right in to parenting a teenager as a first time parent?

DCFS's goal of keeping biological families together is admirable, but the system takes years to work things out, and it is the children who suffer. It is simply not the same as a permanent adoption dating from infancy. They are not interchangeable. It takes a very special family to foster through DCFS.

EH

for Jill's Mom ....

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ re. Linus Pauling

Mathias Rath is another!

John, How is Jill's mom?

EH-

You're right. I worked with many adoptive parents that couldn't adopt outside of their race because of racism in their families. There are also the concerns you've mentioned.

However, with a state adoption, after birthparents rights are terminated, they're terminated. It's very much like a closed adoption then. Of course, this means that infants are toddlers before they are legally adoptable because of all the chances the stae gives parents to "get it together", but after that, there is no back-and-forth.

So while it takes a special family to foster, I don't think adopting through the state takes additional strength, only the willingness to work with an older child and acclimate him/her to their new, forever family.

Hey, did you guys hear the Angelina Jolie's adopted baby girl is wanted back by her birthmom now?

EH-

I LOVE your blog! Those costumes are precious!

Have you considered adopting again when your itty bitties are a little bigger?

Making an adoption plan isn't like sitting in front of a Wal Mart with the kid in a cradboard box with "Free to good home" written on it in crayon.

Damn right! It's a lenghty, often agonizating labor of love and self-giving. It's not a "cop out."

Hey, did you guys hear the Angelina Jolie's adopted baby girl is wanted back by her birthmom now?

This is precisely my point. These parents relinquished their children out of desperation (fear of starvation). If these celebrities donated .0000001 of what they make in ONE DAY to the parents, those children could stay with their families and not be treated like a fashion accessory in a fish bowl.

Jacqueline:

I am so glad that you have such a positive view of foster care/adoption. I would like to adopt through the DCFS in the future, but the two families I know who did successfully adopt the children in their family took years to resolve as various (unfit) family members put in their claim for guardianship. One friend just had to relinquish the four-year-old she had been parenting since birth. My sister-in-law wants to adopt through DCFS, but was basically told that, as she already has a toddler, she'd be at the bottom of the list. Altogether, its been a disheartening picture. Maybe if I just jump into it, I can see for myself and find out if I do have that "special person" in me.

EH

EH,

I'm sorry to hear about the pain your friend is facing. Sadly, bureaucracy is social services is painful for all, children and families. I don't think I could foster-adopt. I'd simply adopt, but utilize the foster system to make it faster/cheaper.

Here's my strategy for adopting through the state vs. a private agency (This is how it is in Texas, and it is likely different from state to state.)

1. Sign up to foster and let the state pay for your homestudies and prep.

2. Adopt a fully-relinquished child with minimal delay (you're already set up) and let the state pay the expenses.

3. The adoption was free and you get an income tax credit as well. The child also gets free state college tuition.

Most families struggle with the 25k to adopt. This way they can provide adopt, removing a child from an institutionalized life without a nearly insurmountable expense. If I ever am blessed enough to adopt, this is the route I'm taking. :)

Jaque,

"I'm not making a blanket statement against adoption (In fact, Jill and I debated about the headline because that's not the point of my post)."

Speaking for myself, reading the headline automatically registered a negative towards adoption in my brain. I was puzzled. But now that you have clarified yourself a bit, then I would have to agree that the title was just a wee bit misleading.

You're a wizard with words, so maybe another title would have given the matter a more positive light.

Bi-racial babies? They're probably the prettiest babies around. I tend to confuse them with hispanic babies.

Good insights, all of you.

Good for you! I'll look into it when my kids (now 1.5 and 2 years) get older. FYI, my adoption was only $11,000 (cheaper because it was transracial--there is truth in the fact that AA children are harder to place, but the reasons are more complicated than just "hey, you're racist")

EH

EH,
Are DCFS out of their mind?? Taking away a 4 yr. old so late in the game to go to a biological family just for the sake of biology? Don't they even have a clue how devastating that will be to the pre-schooler? Are they THAT clueless and cruel?
Why couldn't they just leave her with who she knows as family and be done with it?

I'm so sad...

AB Laura, I hadn't heard that. Is she going to pursue it?

My bad, Sally..it just seems from your posts that abortion is always the best answer you can give, and any pro-life or anti-abortion comment is argued by you. For what it's worth, I apologize.

Hey, If you can't have more children, there's always puppies!!! (not a dig at you or your comment...people always tell me to have more kids, but I tell them I'd rather have another puppy!!!!Not kidding!)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 14, 2007 6:56 PM
.......................................................

No offense taken Laura. I'm 50, my SO is 51 and has been snipped. No more pegnancies here! I have two grand puppies. No grandkids yet. They are a lot of fun. I'm thinking that I would like a Wheatland Terrior. I don't have SO convinced yet.
And Laura, I am completely PC. Mostly due to the trajic pregnancies I have witnessed. No one should have to experience such heartbreak unwillingly. Does that better explain where I am coming from?

Heather,
I heard it on the news this morning....However, when I went to get you a link to an article, the story is now being de-bunked.

I'm not posting anymore celebrity crap from now on!

-my apologies

And Laura, I am completely PC. Mostly due to the trajic pregnancies I have witnessed. No one should have to experience such heartbreak unwillingly. Does that better explain where I am coming from?

Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 1:33 PM

Well, yes & no....but I can better understand you now. Thanks :)

AB Laura, that's okay.

Now let me say...

My mother and father were unable to have children. My mother would have had 12 if she could. She waited 5 years to get my brother. One of the first adopted from Canada. Then she waited another 5 for me. She used to take a baby doll to bed with her at night, praying that when she woke up, the phone would ring and she would have the real thing. She even sent a message to Padre Pio via a priest that was going to see him, to ask if she would ever get a baby.

No child was ever wanted more than I (and my siblings) were.

My birth mother, as I have shared before, is plagued by so many mental illnesses I can't even remember them all, not to mention she is an alcoholic. My birth sister was raped for 4 years by her step father, and my birth mother did nothing to stop it. My birth brother is incarcerated (possibly for life) for repeatedly molesting small children.

Yes, I would hate to see women that could raise their own children with just a wee bit of help, giving their kids away...but I would also hate to see children being kept by parents who are simply not able to raise them with all that they deserve.

I just don't think you can make a blanket statement one way or the other.

Always, always, we must think of what is best for the children.

Sally, the only "good" thing my mother ever did was to hand me over to June and Ward Cleaver. If that means she treated me like a puppy, then throw me a bone.

My birth father got his mistress pregnant at the same time my mother was pregnant with me. The mistress aborted her child. My mother gave me to two of the most wonderful people that God ever created. I don't care what her motives were, she gave me the gift of life, and the gift of an amazing home, and I can never thank her enough!

arf.

Posted by: mk at November 14, 2007 8:10 PM
...............................................
I completely understand how greatful adoptive families are for their adopted children. I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created. If circumstances for me were so dire that I was unable to raise a child, I would abort.
Coinicidentaly, my mother's first husband knocked up a 16 year old when mom was pregnant with my oldest sis. Sis has a half sis a few months younger than herself. She lives on the same street but they have not seen each other since they were babies. (That's a whole nother story!)
Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Excellent post, MK. Sally, killing the child would be the most irresponsible thing that one could do. Adoption is the most unselfish choice.

Posted by: heather at November 14, 2007 8:32 PM
........................................................

I completely disagree. I would find myself incredibly selfish to pawn of my responsibility onto another. I would abort before consideering such a thing.

Hello all. Thank you so much for all your kind words and support. We had our baby! She is PERFECT! We named her Gianna, 7.3 lbs. The delivery was intense! My wife went from 2cm to 9cm in less than an hour! Then it was just an explosion of excitement. So we're just chillin now. I'll talk to ya'll later. God love ya'll!

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 14, 2007 10:11 PM
.........................................................

CONGRATULATIONS! Where are the cigars?

Sally,

I completely disagree. I would find myself incredibly selfish to pawn of my responsibility onto another. I would abort before consideering such a thing.

No offense, but I'm sure glad you weren't my mother then. I'm thrilled that she was "selfish" and "irresponsible"...otherwise the world would not have been blessed with my humble self :)

Sally,

Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Sure, I can understand that. It's weird sometimes feeling two opposite things at the same time. I know I'm so grateful that my birthmom relinquished me, but I also feel horrible that my sister had to grow up in that house. And I'm grateful that I wasn't aborted, but feel guilty because my sibling was.

Being a believer, this is when we would say that God turns all evil into good if only you cooperate. What happened with "Web" was terrible, but good came out of it. And not just for you, but for your mom AND your dad. Sounds to me like Web is the one that got shafted. lol.

I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created.

But killing a child you created- that's just fine!

Sally~You would rather kill your baby than give it to a family who can responsibly take care of it?Talk about selfish....

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must
die so that you may live as you wish"
~Mother Theresa

Bobby, Tell your wife I am sending her some good thoughts/prayers that breastfeeding is successful! It was the greatest experience for me and my daughter..and now at almost 2 years old we are almost done. (she still likes to nurse sometimes in the middle of the night though) DO NOT let the nurses give your baby formula though..or else that will make breastfeeding much more challenging cause the baby will get confused! They gave my daughter formula once and then getting her to nurse was rough..but I did it..and she stayed in my room the rest of our stay!

JM,
Thank you for those kind words.

Jacquie,

I think I see what you're saying. You're saying that while abortion is wrong the one thing both sides agree on is that it should never be done because the woman felt coerced into doing it. Like she didn't have a real choice. While we think it should never be done, I think that prochoicers and prolifers alike agree that it would be even worse if "Big Brother" was deciding who would have abortions and who wouldn't.

You're saying that the same applies to adoption. While we are all for adoption (as are most prochoicers) we can also agree that it should be the womans choice whether to place her child or not, and it sometimes seems like "Big Brother" is deciding who should keep their children or give them away.

I spent three long years on the internet searching for my birth family (as much time as I spend on here...day after day, hour after hour) and I can't tell you the stories that you hear.

Many woman had their children snatched from their arms for the sole reason that they weren't married.

And I hate to say it (I mean I REALLY hate to say it) but Catholic Charities was one of the worst culprits. You should browse the adoption boards sometime. The stories are horrible.

So to recap...adoption is good if the woman chooses it freely. But if there is a chance that a few bucks and roof would make or break the deal then that should be the first choice...

Did I get it right?

"Have you considered adopting again when your itty bitties are a little bigger?"

Jaqueline:

Thanks for the kudos on my site. Yes, in fact we are absolutely going to adopt again. We always wanted to, and moreover, we firmly decided when we adopted Little Miss that we would adopt another AA child (studies show transracial adoptees feel less isolated if they have siblings of the same race). We were able to definitively explain that to Little Miss' birthmom as well, and I know that made her happy and affected her choice to place Little Miss with us. We really don't know whether my pregnancy with Little Man was a fluke or not, but even if we have other biological children, we will adopt again. We're just not sure whether it will be a DCFS situation or another transracial infant adoption.

EH

Sally, how about not having sex to begin with?? If you choose to do so, be prepared to deal with a possible pregnancy. You have no right to kill that child via abortion.

EH,

Thanks for explaining that! I was going to ask, but didn't want to be tacky. I know our agency had 2 AA babies that needed home but had no parents.

I'm praying for your family.

Heather,
"rosie, I didn't know you had a 7 month old!! I do too!"

Awesome! Don't you love it? She is starting to make some really funny noises, my husband taught her how to growl, he says "growl like a wolf" and she goes "grrr". Sometimes she just laughs at him because she knows it is funny. It is so cool when they start to show their personalities. I want another one!

Jaqueline:

If they're in IL, we'll begin the process right now! (But, probably not, huh?)

EH

yllas: When the cross was coming for Doug, Doug got out as fact as Doug could

As usual, you are false. It was her decision. I would not have broken up with her then.
......

Which is why she never wanted to hear or see from that silly agnostic again.

Wrong again. We've talked since, but not for some years now.

When confronted by superior arguments you appear to be able to do nothing but make up silly baloney and slink around the periphery trying to pick at people.

Doug

rosie, when was she born?

Sally,

Any way, I can't exactly say that I am greatful that Web cheated on mom making it possible for mom to meet and marry dad. I don't feel comfortable being greatful for someone's pain just because it benefits me. Can you understand that?

Sure, I can understand that. It's weird sometimes feeling two opposite things at the same time. I know I'm so grateful that my birthmom relinquished me, but I also feel horrible that my sister had to grow up in that house. And I'm grateful that I wasn't aborted, but feel guilty because my sibling was.

Being a believer, this is when we would say that God turns all evil into good if only you cooperate. What happened with "Web" was terrible, but good came out of it. And not just for you, but for your mom AND your dad. Sounds to me like Web is the one that got shafted. lol.

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 2:12 PM

...........................................................

I don't see life as quite that black and white. I think that Web's cheating saved mom from many years of a unhappy marriage. Webs' parents were Salvation Army officers as was my grandma. Mom and Web were pretty much expected to marry. I'm not sure that it was really their idea.
Web married the 16 year old and they had 5 more children. By all accounts a happy enough marriage.
Mom had 8 more pregnancies from which she has 2 children. Dad died in 1974. Afraid of being alone, Mom married a man who was emotionally abusive. He died last year. She had brain surgery the year before and doesn't remember being married to him. Most days she doesn't remember having children. Mom's life has been a mixture of good and bad. As I'm sure that Web's was. I don't attribute any of it to God.

I simply could not and would not give away a child that I had created.

But killing a child you created- that's just fine!

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 15, 2007 2:12 PM
.............................................................

Don't be ridiculous. My children are alive and well. You may fantasize embryos to be itty bitty babies just needing to grow but I know better. I had no children until I gave birth. That's reality.

Sally,

So Web (sans getting a sixteen year old pregnant when he was "with" your mom) turned out to be a pretty okay guy? Actually it sounds like everyone got something out of the deal...

I've heard you talk about your moms hard time with her pregnancies, but the full impact just hit me. She had 8 pregnancies but only two survived? That is really heavy. It's funny because on the one hand you dismiss pregnancy as not involving a child and yet you are fiercely protective of your children. Do you think your mothers losses sort of hardened you, because it was so painful to deal with? I know I'm playing armchair shrink here, but that many deaths must have had some kind of effect. I can't imagine if I had to watch my mother lose 6 of her "children"... and it would explain your incredible loyalty to your own children. (Both the living ones and the ones "You would never give away)...

Sally--

What did you say when you were pregnant and people asked "How's your baby?"

EH

ally~You would rather kill your baby than give it to a family who can responsibly take care of it?Talk about selfish....

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must
die so that you may live as you wish"
~Mother Theresa

Posted by: gg at November 15, 2007 2:16 PM
...............................

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

Guys,

Don't beat up on her. She doesn't believe that they are babies. Let's deal with that, but attacking her isn't cool. I'm more interested in where these feelings are coming from.

So, Sally, you really don't believe that the embryos are babies that just need a little more time to develop? Why is that?

Sally,

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

No you don't seem like it. For all your bravado and hip shootin' you actually sound very sensitive. You're extremely proud of your two kids. I don't believe for an instant that if you thought these were actually babies, that you'd kill them.

Some prochoicers DO argue tho, that baby or not, they have the right to kill them because they are living inside of them. Do you feel that way, or is your support of the abortion choice based on the fact that you do not view them "babies"?

MK, who's beating up on her?

Sally, how about not having sex to begin with?? If you choose to do so, be prepared to deal with a possible pregnancy. You have no right to kill that child via abortion.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 2:33 PM
....................................................................................

Heather, how about you running your life and managing your pregnancies as you see fit. I have every right to run my life and manage my pregnancies as I see fit. Abortion prevents children.

Sally, Prior to coming to Jill's blog, I never knew people who questioned whether an unborn child was human or not. I'm serious, so please forgive my shock over the matter. Even women I knew who have aborted KNEW what they were doing. They knew that they were aborting a human being. Usually this was for convenience.

Heather,

Nobody yet...but I feel it comin' on. lol.

Actually, I probably shouldn't have said anything, it's just that I was having an epiphany and didn't want to get distracted...

Carry on...sorry for buttin' in.

Abortion prevents children?...See. I knew you knew the truth!

Okay, I'm off to work.

Sally,

So Web (sans getting a sixteen year old pregnant when he was "with" your mom) turned out to be a pretty okay guy? Actually it sounds like everyone got something out of the deal...

I've heard you talk about your moms hard time with her pregnancies, but the full impact just hit me. She had 8 pregnancies but only two survived? That is really heavy. It's funny because on the one hand you dismiss pregnancy as not involving a child and yet you are fiercely protective of your children. Do you think your mothers losses sort of hardened you, because it was so painful to deal with? I know I'm playing armchair shrink here, but that many deaths must have had some kind of effect. I can't imagine if I had to watch my mother lose 6 of her "children"... and it would explain your incredible loyalty to your own children. (Both the living ones and the ones "You would never give away)...

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:21 PM
..................................................

Life and reality can 'harden' us MK. Although, I feel that putting away romantic fantasies to be a sign of maturity rather than becoming hardened.
Let's see if I can explain this to you. Mom didn't loose children but rather didn't gain the children hoped for. Terribly dissapointing for mostly dad who really craved a large family. He built a house with 5 bedrooms. Very hard on mom and her body.
I realize today that many believe doctors to be miracle makers and every pregnancy will absolutely produce a child. It's become easy to put the cart before the horse and declare every conceptus a child. It's easy to ignore the very real necessity for the woman's body to succesfuly create and deliver for there to be an actual child and the woman become an actual mother.
I know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Besides my children, I feel fiercely protective over a woman's right to control her own reproduction. No woman should be forced to to take risks with her life or her emotional well being by being forced to gestate.
I don't think that I'm hardened MK. I think compassion should be exhibited to women and their reality of gestational experience respected.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss my feelings and views on the subject.

Sally--

What did you say when you were pregnant and people asked "How's your baby?"

EH

Posted by: EH at November 15, 2007 3:21 PM
.......................................

I cannot recall anyone being so rude to me when I was pregnant. How's my 'baby' what? Developing? Duh, the usual way?
Jeesh! A show of caring would be to inquire after my health and well being. No me. No baby.

I know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Shattered fantasies of what? What the child will become? I'm not following.

I feel fiercely protective over a woman's right to control her own reproduction. No woman should be forced to to take risks with her life or her emotional well being by being forced to gestate.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Forced to gestate? Not following again...sorry, I must be slow today! (and maybe every other day for that matter!)

Guys,

Don't beat up on her. She doesn't believe that they are babies. Let's deal with that, but attacking her isn't cool. I'm more interested in where these feelings are coming from.

So, Sally, you really don't believe that the embryos are babies that just need a little more time to develop? Why is that?

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:25 PM
..........................................................................

Forgive the buliding analogy. Grandpa was a lumber jack/carpetner and my daughter is an architect. Having stated this---
Let's compare the building of a fetus/baby to that of a structure. An architect meets an architect/builder and they colaborate on a building. To me, this is a sperm and ovum meeting and implanting. DNA/blueprint finds constuction sight. The embyonic stage could be likened to the aquiring of the building materials. The fetal stage would be the actual building of the structure. Birth, the building inspection permitting accupancy.
I liken an embryo to a blueprint and some building materials. Perhaps a hoped for baby, an anticipated baby but not a baby yet.

Sally,

Killing babies is illegal. I'm not the criminal type.

No you don't seem like it. For all your bravado and hip shootin' you actually sound very sensitive. You're extremely proud of your two kids. I don't believe for an instant that if you thought these were actually babies, that you'd kill them.

Some prochoicers DO argue tho, that baby or not, they have the right to kill them because they are living inside of them. Do you feel that way, or is your support of the abortion choice based on the fact that you do not view them "babies"?

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 3:28 PM
................................................................

My support of choice is because I deeply believe that no woman should ever be forced to risk their lives, health and well being the way they once were.

Sally, Prior to coming to Jill's blog, I never knew people who questioned whether an unborn child was human or not. I'm serious, so please forgive my shock over the matter. Even women I knew who have aborted KNEW what they were doing. They knew that they were aborting a human being. Usually this was for convenience.

Posted by: heather at November 15, 2007 3:33 PM
...............................................................

What species are these people saying that a human conceptus belongs to? You are referring to a human conceptus when using the term unborn child are you not?
I aborted to avoid a very inconvenient and possibly very dangerous miscarriage. Do you presume to judge who is and who is not to be allowed conveniences?
I say that your computer, cell phone, washer, dryer, microwave, auto and refridgerator must go. No conveniences for you!

Heather,
"rosie, when was she born?"

March 24th

Sally,
"I say that your computer, cell phone, washer, dryer, microwave, auto and refridgerator must go. No conveniences for you!"

That would really suck, but I would live.

know that the PL use emotionally laden terms believing that fantasizing about the possible child to be, will encourage women to gestate. I fear that it sets many women up for harsh dissapointment and shattered fantasies.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Shattered fantasies of what? What the child will become? I'm not following.
................................................

What the child might be like if the pregnancy produces one.

I feel fiercely protective over a woman's right to control her own reproduction. No woman should be forced to to take risks with her life or her emotional well being by being forced to gestate.
Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 4:16 PM

Forced to gestate? Not following again...sorry, I must be slow today! (and maybe every other day for that matter!)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 15, 2007 4:22 PM

...................................................................

Continue an unwanted pregnancy.

Sally,
"I say that your computer, cell phone, washer, dryer, microwave, auto and refridgerator must go. No conveniences for you!"

That would really suck, but I would live.

Posted by: rosie at November 15, 2007 4:48 PM
...................................................

Ever srubbed diapers in the bathtub with a scrub board? It's murder on the knuckles. You'd have step over my lifeless body to get my washing machine.

You may fantasize embryos to be itty bitty babies just needing to grow but I know better.

This is a 6 week baby. Little hands and feet. This is the earliest an abortion can be performed. If Sally doesn't kill him/her, he/she will be born:

How is that not a little bitty baby needing to grow?

You may fantasize embryos to be itty bitty babies just needing to grow but I know better.

This is a 6 week baby. Little hands and feet. This is the earliest an abortion can be performed. If Sally doesn't kill him/her, he/she will be born:

How is that not a little bitty baby needing to grow?

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 15, 2007 5:03 PM

...........................................

It's an embryo. It requires futher materials supplied by a woman to become a 'baby'. Which of course is a term of endearment. I suppose if you feel an emotional attachment to this photo and wish to call it a baby, it's your perogative.

You may fantasize embryos to be itty bitty babies just needing to grow but I know better.

This is a 6 week baby. Little hands and feet. This is the earliest an abortion can be performed. If Sally doesn't kill him/her, he/she will be born:

How is that not a little bitty baby needing to grow?

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 15, 2007 5:03 PM

.....................................................

Oh, and if an embryo should be 'born', it will die. Nature's way of practicing itty bitty baby genocide dontcha know.

Sally,

I completely disagree. I would find myself incredibly selfish to pawn of my responsibility onto another. I would abort before consideering such a thing.

No offense, but I'm sure glad you weren't my mother then. I'm thrilled that she was "selfish" and "irresponsible"...otherwise the world would not have been blessed with my humble self :)

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 2:07 P
............................................

Since I would have liked more children, you would neither have been aborted or adopted out. And my kids think that I'm a fab mom. You could do much worse for a mother. ; )

Yes, in fact we are absolutely going to adopt again. We always wanted to, and moreover, we firmly decided when we adopted Little Miss that we would adopt another AA child (studies show transracial adoptees feel less isolated if they have siblings of the same race). We were able to definitively explain that to Little Miss' birthmom as well, and I know that made her happy and affected her choice to place Little Miss with us.

EH, I think that is just great. You sound like an EXCELLENT parent.

Doug

Sometimes if a baby is born prematurely, at let's say, 30 weeks, it can die. Does this mean that it was not actually a human child, if this happens, in your opinion?

Oops, that was directed at Sally's post:

"Oh, and if an embryo should be 'born', it will die. Nature's way of practicing itty bitty baby genocide dontcha know."

Jacqueline: Have you considered adopting again when your itty bitties are a little bigger?

What does breast size or breast enlarrgement have to do with it?

Sometimes if a baby is born prematurely, at let's say, 30 weeks, it can die. Does this mean that it was not actually a human child, if this happens, in your opinion?

Posted by: Bethany at November 15, 2007 6:04 Pm

...........................................

If it survived birth, I would consider it a child. You know, child is one of those words like baby having many meanings. A child to me is a fetus that has survived birth.

---The children struggle with understanding why their birthmothers chose to place and why their fathers didn't seem to care much at all. There are identity and abandonment issues as well.---

As an adult adoptee in reunion with a younger sibling, I resent that statement very much.

Adoptee/Adoption means absolutely NOTHING to me or to my life-- It has NEVER defined who I am or where I came from. My life, my culture, my family came from my parents who raised me, not from the woman who birthed me.

I never questioned where I came from, why I was placed for adoption, what my birthparents looked like, what they did for a living.. It does not matter one speckle of dust and has absolutely NO bearing on who I am today!

There are many adoptees- and I would say a vast majority of us- who have absolutely NO issues with identity and abandonment. I have met hundreds of adoptees and birthmothers through various groups and travels. Most of those who have issues are those who never quite "fit" in to their adoptive families.

Personally,I dont care what caused my birthmother to place me, I am EVER so greatful for her COURAGE to do so. It is one of the most unselfish acts that any woman can make. She did it because she loved me, it will never make me think of her in a bad way. I respect her more for giving me the life that she could not provide. I dont see that as a failure on her part, I see that as tremendous gift to ME!

I AM PRO-ADOPTION..it's not an easy way out ...

If it survived birth, I would consider it a child. You know, child is one of those words like baby having many meanings. A child to me is a fetus that has survived birth.

So a mother that lost her baby at 30 weeks, how would you console her for her loss?

And also, if not a baby or a child, what about a human being?

Here is a 30 week old baby.

If this baby hadn't survived, are you saying you wouldn't consider this baby a child, or a baby? What is so special about surviving birth? What if a baby survived birth only to be hit by a car on the way home?
What is the difference?

By the way, I have to say, I REALLY appreciate being able to discuss this with you civilly, Sally, even if we don't agree. Thank you...

If it survived birth, I would consider it a child. You know, child is one of those words like baby having many meanings. A child to me is a fetus that has survived birth.

So a mother that lost her baby at 30 weeks, how would you console her for her loss?

And also, if not a baby or a child, what about a human being?

Posted by: Bethany at November 15, 2007 6:43 PM
.................................................................................

A big hug and a available ear. Unless gestated by another species, human is redundant. To me being is a verb implying life. A stillborn would be human but not a being.

In 1982 when I first found out I was pregnant, the Reagan Administration cut me off of disability as they did across-the-board for all those on disability unitl 6 months later when the whole mess was declared as unconstitutional and my benefits were reinstated. I was on disability due to back injuries.
Anyway, for 6 months of my pregnancy I had no income and was able to tap into available resources in my community, as well as from my then boyfriend, and my family. I was living in affordable housing so I wasn't homeless. By the time my retroactive disability check arrived I was a week away from giving birth. I lived in the housing until 1991 when I was able to put a downpayment on a home. I had that home until last year when I sold it because I could no longer keep it up due to my worsening health issues.
During my son's early years I was a college student, got a degree, and ran several single mother support groups. If given the opportunity to a mentor such as me, a pregnant young woman can raise a child very effectively. All one needs is someone to take an interest and help them through the process. It is a shame that so many are quick to discount that a single mom raise a child successfully.
Five years ago my niece was pregnant and was in the process of giving her baby up for adoption and I offered that I would take her baby in until she could stand on her feet again. At that point she decided to keep her baby. She is now a full time college student and yesterday she found out that she is getting a full scholarship to a university. I am very proud of her and she is a great mother.

Here is a 30 week old baby.

If this baby hadn't survived, are you saying you wouldn't consider this baby a child, or a baby? What is so special about surviving birth? What if a baby survived birth only to be hit by a car on the way home?
What is the difference?

Posted by: Bethany at November 15, 2007 6:46 PM
......................................................................

I would consider it a stillborn fetus, and yes quite sad. What is special about surviving birth? The ability to sustain life/functional life support systems.
What if a baby/child/newborn infant was killed in a car wreck? That would be very sad and the infant would become a human corpse. The difference between a fetus and an infant is that the infant has survived birth. A fetus has not yet.

In 1982 when I first found out I was pregnant, the Reagan Administration cut me off of disability as they did across-the-board for all those on disability unitl 6 months later when the whole mess was declared as unconstitutional and my benefits were reinstated. I was on disability due to back injuries.
Anyway, for 6 months of my pregnancy I had no income and was able to tap into available resources in my community, as well as from my then boyfriend, and my family. I was living in affordable housing so I wasn't homeless. By the time my retroactive disability check arrived I was a week away from giving birth. I lived in the housing until 1991 when I was able to put a downpayment on a home. I had that home until last year when I sold it because I could no longer keep it up due to my worsening health issues.
During my son's early years I was a college student, got a degree, and ran several single mother support groups. If given the opportunity to a mentor such as me, a pregnant young woman can raise a child very effectively. All one needs is someone to take an interest and help them through the process. It is a shame that so many are quick to discount that a single mom raise a child successfully.
Five years ago my niece was pregnant and was in the process of giving her baby up for adoption and I offered that I would take her baby in until she could stand on her feet again. At that point she decided to keep her baby. She is now a full time college student and yesterday she found out that she is getting a full scholarship to a university. I am very proud of her and she is a great mother.

Posted by: Diane at November 15, 2007 6:57 PM
............................................

In 1982 my ex finished up his 6 year term in the AF. Regan cut off unemplyment benefits for those exiting the military and then recinded it 6 months later. Great guy!
Single moms have to be willing to put in much extra effort to make it. Willing being the important word here.

By the way, I have to say, I REALLY appreciate being able to discuss this with you civilly, Sally, even if we don't agree. Thank you...

Posted by: Bethany at November 15, 2007 6:47 PM
................................................................

I REALLY appreciate the few of the PL that are willing to follow where I am coming from without casting aspertions upon my character or making presumptions.
It isn't important to me that we all agree. It is important to me that everyone see the complexities to the issue of abortion and the ramifications of outlawing it. Thank you for considering my views.

Willing, yes, as long as there is opportunity, which is why I want to start a Single Mom's For Life group so it can be another alternative option to help pregnant women so they will have the strength to resist the temptation of abortion being their only option.

Willing, yes, as long as there is opportunity, which is why I want to start a Single Mom's For Life group so it can be another alternative option to help pregnant women so they will have the strength to resist the temptation of abortion being their only option.

Posted by: Diane at November 15, 2007 7:19 PM
........................................................................

Seems to me if a woman is a single mother, abortion was not her choice. I wonder if your title of Single Mom's For Life would discourage PC single moms from coming to your organization for help?
What kind of help are you hoping to offer your single moms?

this is just early in the process, the name isn't finalized. It would be a place for single pregnant women to come to receive support and be in a peer-led situation with older, successful single moms as mentors. This could be an adjunct to programs such as the Gabriel Project and other support networks who provide food, clothing, access to jobs, housing, etc...

@Sally,

going to comment on your post with Bethany ... an unborn child and a born child are both living beings and since babies are species-specific ... horses birth horses; dogs birth dogs ...on and on ... humans birth humans. We can make living creatures dead, but we do not make a dead being live. Bethany is even more correct in saying a 'human being' because it is alive. A stillborn child had to go through a process to die. A dead child is not animate and has no intrinsic rights.

"It is important to me that everyone see the complexities to the issue of abortion"

There is nothing complex about. It's killing human-life.

Sally,

Sorry, I jumped ship there. Went to see Bella again with a good friend.
Then went to dinner and whatever I ate made me sick...but I just felt like I couldn't leave this hanging. I won't be able to debate much, just want a cup of tea and bed, but I wanted to say that I'm glad we're actually talking with each other instead of at each other.

My son Johnny has a hard time sitting still. We just went to parent teacher conferences and it was really hard to hear that your kid is disrupting class. He so badly wants to be a good boy. When I got in the car he looked at me with a great big smile and those huge eyes and said "What did my teacher say? Was I good?" and I just wanted to die. He's not a bully, not mean, not disrespectful...he just can't sit still and has a hard time staying on task.

Then I went to see Bella. The guy in the movie never judges the girl, never chastises her, never puts her down. Just walks with her and holds out his hand, knowing that it must be up to her whether or not she takes it...

It all got me thinking about Heather and her "friends" and the words that she and Jackie had yesterday....

Johnny is just Johnny. The girl in the movie is just who she is. Heather has friends that don't make the same choices that Jacquie or I would make. You see things differently than the pro lifers on this site.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can't wait for people to change so that we can love them. We need to love them first, then the changes will happen.

I'm glad we're getting to be friends. Not that I won't throw out my zingers when I have to...but sometimes you have to realize that what people believe is not necessarily who they are. It's just a piece of who they are. If I believe in God, and I do, then I must be willing to see Him in ALL people, not just the ones that are easy.

And when I hear you talk about your kids, or your mom, or your friends...I see Him in you and it feels right.

Now back to the war...

Sally,

Sorry, I jumped ship there. Went to see Bella again with a good friend.
Then went to dinner and whatever I ate made me sick...but I just felt like I couldn't leave this hanging. I won't be able to debate much, just want a cup of tea and bed, but I wanted to say that I'm glad we're actually talking with each other instead of at each other.

My son Johnny has a hard time sitting still. We just went to parent teacher conferences and it was really hard to hear that your kid is disrupting class. He so badly wants to be a good boy. When I got in the car he looked at me with a great big smile and those huge eyes and said "What did my teacher say? Was I good?" and I just wanted to die. He's not a bully, not mean, not disrespectful...he just can't sit still and has a hard time staying on task.

Then I went to see Bella. The guy in the movie never judges the girl, never chastises her, never puts her down. Just walks with her and holds out his hand, knowing that it must be up to her whether or not she takes it...

It all got me thinking about Heather and her "friends" and the words that she and Jackie had yesterday....

Johnny is just Johnny. The girl in the movie is just who she is. Heather has friends that don't make the same choices that Jacquie or I would make. You see things differently than the pro lifers on this site.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can't wait for people to change so that we can love them. We need to love them first, then the changes will happen.

I'm glad we're getting to be friends. Not that I won't throw out my zingers when I have to...but sometimes you have to realize that what people believe is not necessarily who they are. It's just a piece of who they are. If I believe in God, and I do, then I must be willing to see Him in ALL people, not just the ones that are easy.

And when I hear you talk about your kids, or your mom, or your friends...I see Him in you and it feels right.

Now back to the war...

Posted by: mk at November 15, 2007 8:21 PM
.............................................................................................
Oh my! Not food poisoning! That's the worst. Get yourself better. We can certainly exchange views later.

...so in the meantime, here is a pic taken last night of little Gianna.

Doh!

his is just early in the process, the name isn't finalized. It would be a place for single pregnant women to come to receive support and be in a peer-led situation with older, successful single moms as mentors. This could be an adjunct to programs such as the Gabriel Project and other support networks who provide food, clothing, access to jobs, housing, etc...

Posted by: Diane at November 15, 2007 7:43 PM
...............................................................

I think it's great! Maybe a group of volunteer babysitters. Career clothes drives. Financial planning assistance. Nutritional guidance. Play groups. Educational assistance. Volunteer car mechanics and handy persons. There is much that can be done to help single moms. Good luck with the project!

Bobby, I really want to see those pictures! :)

The reason they aren't showing up is because you are posting the URL to your local files, your documents folder. I can help you upload them to a website server if you'd like. Just send me the pictures via email. :)

Ah! I thought that might be the problem. Okay, so I'll send you a few? Cool, thanks Bethany!

@Sally,

going to comment on your post with Bethany ... an unborn child and a born child are both living beings and since babies are species-specific ... horses birth horses; dogs birth dogs ...on and on ... humans birth humans. We can make living creatures dead, but we do not make a dead being live. Bethany is even more correct in saying a 'human being' because it is alive. A stillborn child had to go through a process to die. A dead child is not animate and has no intrinsic rights.

Posted by: John McDonell at November 15, 2007 8:02 PM
...............................................................

If you want to use technically specific terms, human ebryo, human fetus etc would be more appropriate than the vagueness of 'human being'.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by a stillborn going through a process to die?

Jacqueline:

I must agree with you that adoption is not a simple solution and should not be pushed on mothers just b/c someone feels that abortion is wrong.

I think this might be one topic we actually agree on...

Sally,

Human embryo, human fetus are accidental terms. Human being is a substantial term. The former describe the apperence and observable properties of a being, the latter refers to what the being is ontologically. Human being is a precise metaphysical term.

"It is important to me that everyone see the complexities to the issue of abortion"

There is nothing complex about. It's killing human-life.

Posted by: jasper at November 15, 2007 8:11 PM
....................................................

Well Jasper, not always. The 'life' may not be alive. When considering outlawing the abortion procedure, one needs to realize that abortion can be medically necessary. This makes a doctor's position governed by lawyers as to when and how s/he can perform one. This is just one of the complexities to the issue.

Sally,

Human embryo, human fetus are accidental terms. Human being is a substantial term. The former describe the apperence and observable properties of a being, the latter refers to what the being is ontologically. Human being is a precise metaphysical term.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 15, 2007 10:11 PM
....................................................

Gestational development is not a metaphysical/theological process. Nothing mystical about it. The RCCs philopsophical pronouncements are imaterial to the discussion. That is where you are coming from is it not?

No, that is from a purely philisophical point of view. This is a distinction that even atheists make. Even christopher hitchens in "god is not great" admits that the embryo is a human being (more or less. I can't remember the exact quote but it is something to that effect.) Above you were discussing how abortion is complex. Well, because it is complex, we need not only biology to tell us that we were all once embryos, but we need philosophy to decide what it means to be a person.

MK...your post was just great about what you took from the movie Bella! It takes much grace in a person to be able to love first in order to help them change. (if they wish to) I find I struggle with this everyday. I have a friend who I love to death, but just can not comprehend why she does the things she does or is the way she is. I often feel frustrated because I am trying very HARD to make something of myself and she just seems to be content having nothing for her and her daughter. (She is a single mom as well) I lately have just been distancing myself from her because I just feel as though she brings me down. I WISH that I could help her and I have tried oh so hard to help her in a loving way, but now I just feel it is time for us to go our separate ways. This makes me sad as we have known each other since high school and we were quite good friends. But I can't change her. I can only change myself...and unfortunately I think that means letting go of some people to do so. But what else is there to do really?

Sally, you have been quite nice this evening..{is it really you?]...KIDDING! Actually, it's nice to see you in a calmer state. MK, thank you for the Bella review/post. It was nice to read. I think I'll lay low for a while on some things. Besides, some of my "friends" could always read this, and ya know....figure out that I've been "outing" their privacy. Not likely, but stranger things have happened. Elizabeth, it was also nice to read your post. Same situation for me. I'll explain later. Bobby, I cannot get to the picture of your baby.

Doug,
Your the one who brought up some story about some women you knew. I give some moral lessons which may be gained from your making her life public again, with every wart of her life mentioned . Spin away Doug, you made sure to make known her suffering at the time you knew her, was once again brought forward in your story.
I never found out if she met her child, AB Laura is all you had to write Doug, she left me AB Laura.
Not Doug, he splatters around her life with mentions of suicide, assault, molestation and every embarassment of her life you knew about.
Think she was proud of those facts of her life Doug? Why mention them Doug? Think she was suffering anguish and despair Doug.
Yep, when the going get tuff, old Doug gets going, simply because she was a typical person, who tells loved one's, those close to her, "to leave her alone and let her die". Hear those words from her, Doug? Oh, that's right, Doug even had to give a character description of her, being a "hard person anyway". How loving Doug. Not a redeeming quality offered of her in your love story, Doug. Or maybe the only quality that redeemed her, was between her legs for Doug. Be realistic Doug, be a man Doug, admit at least she serviced your lust with a mention of her ability to satisify something in ya Doug. After all Doug, you've damn well destroyed her character and personality , why not her sex life too. Why Doug, are you soo narcissistic to not know she might have committed suicide? Being realistic, she might have a had a realtive tell her to leave you Doug, from your pessimistic personality, increasing her chances of killing herself.
But, it gets better from Doug the silly agnostic.
AB Laura ask you to not leave her hanging and "did he ever look her up"?
Which is when you enjoy giving every detail of her embarassment, despair, and suffering life again for others to read about.

Now, you reply to me that you have have spoken to her Doug.
So inquiring minds still want to know Doug, "Did he ever look her up"?
Forget to ask her if her adopted child got in touch with her Doug?
Or, your speaking to her, was within the first year she left you Doug, and you knew she was not in touch with her adopted child, from those state laws you mention.
I would say the last time you spoke to her was all about you Doug, some property, or bill being payed. And Doug was denying any, and all monetary responsibility between you and the suffering woman , who told you Doug, get out Doug, from being a moral mute. Say a month or two.
Right Doug?
Just being realistic Doug.
And you knew everything, about her suffering she was going through Doug, or else how did you know about her suffering? Which makes you statement about "not having broken up with her then" a lie Doug.
Or a amazing conversation between you and her, within a year of her telling you to "get out of her life, where her suffering was revealed to Doug.
And yet you still did not ask her about her adopted child "looking her up".
Or if you did, you forgot her answer, and avoided answering AB Laura her one and only question to you Doug.
Fact is Doug, your offering "baloney", you "slink around" doing character assassinations on past women in your life, who you have judged a "hard person". You make up your own intelligence, and think you confront others with your self made "superior arguments", which are summed up in a short statement; You allow women killing their creation. Now, that's some intellect Doug, some argument Doug. Hear about the Nazi doktors who allowed some women to choose life, if they allowed the docktor to take their twins and advance medical science? Your relatives, HERR Doug? After all, a person who doesn't know that "Gianna" is the feminine Italian for "Johnnie", might be making a superior fool out of himself.

Bobby just sent me the pictures....Wow, it's so great to put a face with a name! Bobby, you and your wife make such a beautiful couple. And she was GORGEOUS for just having delivered a baby.
And of course, your baby Gianna is just plain adorable!!

Well Jasper, not always. The 'life' may not be alive. When considering outlawing the abortion procedure, one needs to realize that abortion can be medically necessary. This makes a doctor's position governed by lawyers as to when and how s/he can perform one. This is just one of the complexities to the issue.

Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 10:12 PM

As stated by Alan Guttmacher, abortions to save a woman's life are exceedingly rare. Doctors certainly have the expertise to document these very few cases. My friend had a stroke from pregnancy related hypertension. A doctor could explain an abortion in the case like that. It is not too complex for someone to understand. Also, no one here has been advocating continuing a pregnancy in a case of spontaneous fetal demise.

I love baby yawns...

Yvonne,

Nothing I said is meant to be offensive, and if you read a little closer, you'll see that it's not.

For example, you said, "I AM PRO-ADOPTION..it's not an easy way out ..."

I never said that. Adoption is not an easy way out for birthparents at all! I said that many push adoption on birthparents as a cop-out for not supporting birthparents.

Adoption from the birthparents' perspective is a labor of love and self-giving. For birthparents, particularly birthmoms, it's the hardest thing I've seen people endure. They grieve the loss of a baby that's still alive, the loss of motherhood, so much. So it's a unique grief, which in many ways makes it more difficult.

Adoptee/Adoption means absolutely NOTHING to me or to my life-- It has NEVER defined who I am or where I came from. My life, my culture, my family came from my parents who raised me, not from the woman who birthed me.

I never questioned where I came from, why I was placed for adoption, what my birthparents looked like, what they did for a living.. It does not matter one speckle of dust and has absolutely NO bearing on who I am today!

There are many adoptees- and I would say a vast majority of us- who have absolutely NO issues with identity and abandonment. I have met hundreds of adoptees and birthmothers through various groups and travels. Most of those who have issues are those who never quite "fit" in to their adoptive families.

That may be true, since I only worked with the adoptees seeking reunion with their birthparents. But from my experience, you are the exception, not the rule. I'm not saying adoptees aren't happy and fulfilled, but so many feel that for the sake of their adoptive families whom they love more than anything, they can't look for a birthparents at the risk of hurting the adoptive families' feelings. Many wait until the adoptive parents pass away before they feel comfortable searching.

Personally,I dont care what caused my birthmother to place me, I am EVER so greatful for her COURAGE to do so. It is one of the most unselfish acts that any woman can make. She did it because she loved me, it will never make me think of her in a bad way. I respect her more for giving me the life that she could not provide. I dont see that as a failure on her part, I see that as tremendous gift to ME!

I agree. My contention was that she should have had the support to have raised you herself if she had wanted.

I'm trying not to be annoyed with people reading one to two lines of my post and putting words in my mouth. I'm not anti-adoption. I clearly stated that.

P.S. Most birthfathers sign papers. That's the extent of their involvement in the adoption. Children rightly wonder why their birthfathers weren't more involved.

Bethany,

Thank you so much for posting those pics! What and absolutely gorgeous family! Congrats to Bobby, wife & Gianna again!

Anonymous: No, that is from a purely philisophical point of view. This is a distinction that even atheists make. Even christopher hitchens in "god is not great" admits that the embryo is a human being (more or less. I can't remember the exact quote but it is something to that effect.) Above you were discussing how abortion is complex. Well, because it is complex, we need not only biology to tell us that we were all once embryos, but we need philosophy to decide what it means to be a person.

Right - there is the physical reality - human, alive, an organism, etc., and then there are considerations and definitions of "person."

Doug

yllas: So inquiring minds still want to know Doug, "Did he ever look her up"?

We didn't talk about it. Just didn't get to it, and I never thought to ask at the time. I'm guessing he did not, figuring she would have mentioned it if he had, but of course I can't be sure. If I talk to her again, I'll ask.
......

Doug even had to give a character description of her, being a "hard person anyway".

You have some skill at taking things out of context, but to an extent she was hard, yes, and she'd see through somebody like you, with your childish agenda, in about five seconds, and dismiss you as damaged goods.

And as far as somebody like you telling pregnant what to do, she'd just laugh.

yllas, you do have a somewhat-fascinating way of stringing things together, even though they are mostly conjured up from your own psyche, and I can count on you to put a smile on my face.

Doug

That's right, Doug. The considerations of the definition of person is indeed, the main crux of this whole debate. Anonymous was me, BTW. I keep forgetting to type my name. Take care, Doug.

Bobby, you look good as "Anonymous," too. Congratulations again.

Thank you kindly, Doug.

Whatever Doug has to write about abortion and "person qualities", it is to affirm his belief in women are permitted to kill.
Simple minds think simple thoughts for killing.
Kill the fetus.
Kill the human being.
Kill it.
A killing professional, who does not get his hands dirty, the brainiac, Doug.
A dogmatist for allowing others to kill. It is that simple.
Hey Doug, remember the movie Caine Mutiny?
You remind me of Quigg.
Ahh, but the strawberries, that's........that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond a shadow of doubt and with.... geometric logic... that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist, and I'd had produced that key had they not pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know they were trying to protect the baby in the womb..
All the while Doug is rolling those steel balls in his hand.
On the other hand, maybe Doug, fits the personhood of Lt, Tom Keefer, always pushing for others to do the "dirty work" Doug is pushing for.
Ever have a women throw a drink in your face Doug, after she figured you out Doug?

Bobby,

Your family is absolutely beautiful!! And I agree with Jacqueline..baby yawns are the cutest..next to baby sneezes.

OMG, thanks for the piccys, Bethany. That baby is beyond gorgeous!!

You assassinated her personality, character, life, and anything else she was Doug. It's your words Doug. Maybe you should think before you reduce another human to what you think was her content and context of character. Who do you think your foolin Doug? Yourself again? Be real Doug. Get a modest sense of what you wrote about that "hard person".
Then again, your the brain for reducing humanity in others is well known, Doug.
You didn't think to ASK?
Which is why I listed a realistic reason why you didn't, Doug. The only conversation you had with her, was about you, Doug. You, and your money, Doug.
Which is why you didn't answer the one question posed to you about that women who you failed at her time of carrying her cross.
Not even ask Doug? What does that say about your character Doug? We know her character,personality, family disgrace, and anxiety about her adoption coming back to either love her, or abandon her, to think about her actions of adoption gaining her more grief.
Not even ask the women "did your son look you up?
Gee, Doug, at all those motel's you stay at, and you have a conversation with a manger(who you have met many times before, from being on the road over and over ad nauseum) who mentions she has a son that she gave away years ago might contact her. And you leave before she finds out that emotional episode in her life is concluded.
I bet you would think about her and send her a email to ask if the episode turned out for the better. Or the next time you stayed at that motel, ask her if her son contacted her and if it was a joyful reunion.
And even if it didn't turn out good and graciously, you could console her with your wisdom about having the choice to murder her adoption years before and no such grief would have come to her.
Or, you could call on the principle/law of Laura, and simply said, Well, what goes around comes around.
Dudette, that's some bad karma.
Being realistic, your the hard person Doug.
Fact is, a real man would have contacted the women whose time to bear a cross had come, and was abandoned by Doug, like Peter abandoned Jesus.
Well similar to Peter, since Peter knew shame and guilt about his abandonment of Jesus from knowing what he had done, unlike Doug.
She was a hard person. And the cock crowed.
She was a shame to me with that family history.
And the cock crowed for Doug.
I never asked her about her hole in her heart, when I talked to her again. The cock crowed the third and final time for Doug.
Well Doug, a realistic man, a man who values life, who respects others, who one assumed, Doug loved, would acknowledge and express regret or ask for pardon from offending that suffering women.
Anything less is a mark upon you Doug.
And a person with less pride would acknowledge your offense against me for my being realistic, and express regret and ask my pardon, Doug.
The whole board is waiting Doug!!!!

yllas- no they aren't. It's just you.

Jacqueline,

Yes, it is a unique grief and much more work must be done in that area. Especially in today's modern world, we have come to know and learn about the effects of adoption on both sides. The Adoption community has expressed this need with great urgency. We still find that there are very few psychologists and professionals that soley dedicate their practice to all facets of adoption. There are folks out there who are working diligently to change that, Praise God!

Many women were pressured to place their child for adoption. We do not see that as much as we did in the 60's- early 80's. We have open adoptions and semi-open adoptions which contribute greatly to the healing process. It works out for the vast number of people. But it also comes with a lot of consequences for child, adoptive families and birth families. We really wont know the effects for another few years as the open-adoption children are now entering adulthood. One of the main problems of open or semi-open is the reality of co-parenting and it leads to major issues between the families.

Closed adoption is still a selected choice by many birthmothers.

Absolutely mothers should have the support to raise their own children instead of placing them! Unfortunately there are organizations/agencies that prey on birthmothers and young unwed women to place their children up for adoption. I could go on and on about my experiences with this. Some in the community have given up on ethics and seek only monetary gain. This is ESPECIALLY true of International Adoption as well as some Domestic agencies .

I would greatly suggest to all involved in pregnancy crisis counseling to meet with adoptees, birthparents who have placed, and adoptive parents. Sit in on a local support group to gain the knowledge of all sides of the process. Read books so that you can minister to these ladies and be able to answer all and any questions that they may have.

If you are working with a Adoption Agency at your CPC, see how they operate, what do they provide before, after, during the entire process. Many times CPC's just pull off a list of what they think are "credible" agencies only to hear horror stories later. CPC's must avoid that.

Its a MUST to collaborate with a Ethical agency and CPC's should very much be involved in that process- and not just give the ladies a number and let them decide. The knowledge must be gained by CPC staff so they can help the girls make the right decision without force.

For more information and lots of insight, articles, links to books see www.adoption.com

Yvonne

@Sally,

Well Jasper, not always. The 'life' may not be alive. When considering outlawing the abortion procedure, one needs to realize that abortion can be medically necessary. This makes a doctor's position governed by lawyers as to when and how s/he can perform one. This is just one of the complexities to the issue.
.................

Many do take for granted that there is a difference between living and being dead. But not too many do not understand that this difference is also noted on a biochemical basis .... often it is 'all-at-once' .... so every one of a body's 30 billion cells will receive the same signal to die in unison. (all living entities are but a massive collection of individual cells.)

Often in any biological process there are enzymes present to give a process its character. Life or 'living' has one(actually several) set(s) of enzymes; dead tissue (in the process: apoptosis and necrosis) has quite another series of sets. To be 'developing' a human fetus is in a living process .... the notion of 'developing' assumes a living entity.

In summary, while there are multiple processes only a living being 'develops'. Abortion is about terminating this process. Pregnancy also is about living. Abortion is about TERMINATION of a living fetus. If the operation is about REMOVAL of dead tissue, then the use of the word 'abortion' is a faulty use of the word.

I have a question for you: How can you say HUMAN zygote; HUMAN fetus on one hand and deny HUMAN rights on the other, if you know these are both HUMAN and living?

Erin, your a hypocrite.
All that can be said about you.
When a cock crows for hypocrites, they hear a crow calling for them to eat what remains of their honesty.

John,

As usual, an excellent post. I'm always so confused when people don't understand that fetus/embryo are simply words that describe a time period in a person's life. They are descriptive words and do not define what a human life is. Only where it is in it's long journey.

It's like being on a train. Sure, you can be in the dining car, or the caboose or the engine or the passenger car...but you're still on the train.

To claim that you are not on the train, but are in the passenger car is, well, nuts.

Diane,

Your group sounds very interesting! Is there a web site or something where we could read more about it?

Very good analogy, MK! :)

No, that is from a purely philisophical point of view. This is a distinction that even atheists make. Even christopher hitchens in "god is not great" admits that the embryo is a human being (more or less. I can't remember the exact quote but it is something to that effect.) Above you were discussing how abortion is complex. Well, because it is complex, we need not only biology to tell us that we were all once embryos, but we need philosophy to decide what it means to be a person.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 15, 2007 11:46 PM
..............................................................................

Let's start with biology before we wander into intangible theological rhetoric.

yllas- you know, I'm pretty sure your grammar is off. I think needlessly repeating people's names clutters your speech. Many of your sentences also seem to be non sequiturs- they do not follow any remote form of logic. Let's take this last sentence.

"When a cock crows for hypocrites, they hear a crow calling for them to eat what remains of their honesty."

First of all...just...wth? Secondly, a cock and a crow are very different. Also, hypocrisy has to do with illogical expectations that reflect unfair judgment. It has nothing to do with honesty.

Also, it's 'You're'. 'You're' a hypocrite. Not your.

Lets see if you can take this lesson and write up a scathing response with your new grasp of the English language?

But Sally, this is actually the foundational point. The biology should inform our philosophy, not the other way around. Did you read what Doug wrote above? In fact, look at your quote of the day. You are making a philisophical observation. None of this is theological. Sure we use these same terms in theology, but this has nothing to do with it.

Well Jasper, not always. The 'life' may not be alive. When considering outlawing the abortion procedure, one needs to realize that abortion can be medically necessary. This makes a doctor's position governed by lawyers as to when and how s/he can perform one. This is just one of the complexities to the issue.

Posted by: Sally at November 15, 2007 10:12 PM

As stated by Alan Guttmacher, abortions to save a woman's life are exceedingly rare. Doctors certainly have the expertise to document these very few cases. My friend had a stroke from pregnancy related hypertension. A doctor could explain an abortion in the case like that. It is not too complex for someone to understand. Also, no one here has been advocating continuing a pregnancy in a case of spontaneous fetal demise.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2007 7:22 AM
.......................................................

Ok, lets say you've just outlawed abortion. How are laws going to be worded to allow an illegal procedure? Will a hearing be necessary? Where will doctors be trained to perform illegal procedures? Let's start with the bare bones basics of practical application of such a law. Who gets to decide exceptions to the law and who gets to decide what type of procedure can be used?

@Sally,

Well Jasper, not always. The 'life' may not be alive. When considering outlawing the abortion procedure, one needs to realize that abortion can be medically necessary. This makes a doctor's position governed by lawyers as to when and how s/he can perform one. This is just one of the complexities to the issue.
.................

Many do take for granted that there is a difference between living and being dead. But not too many do not understand that this difference is also noted on a biochemical basis .... often it is 'all-at-once' .... so every one of a body's 30 billion cells will receive the same signal to die in unison. (all living entities are but a massive collection of individual cells.)

Often in any biological process there are enzymes present to give a process its character. Life or 'living' has one(actually several) set(s) of enzymes; dead tissue (in the process: apoptosis and necrosis) has quite another series of sets. To be 'developing' a human fetus is in a living process .... the notion of 'developing' assumes a living entity.

In summary, while there are multiple processes only a living being 'develops'. Abortion is about terminating this process. Pregnancy also is about living. Abortion is about TERMINATION of a living fetus. If the operation is about REMOVAL of dead tissue, then the use of the word 'abortion' is a faulty use of the word.

I have a question for you: How can you say HUMAN zygote; HUMAN fetus on one hand and deny HUMAN rights on the other, if you know these are both HUMAN and living?

Posted by: John McDonell at November 16, 2007 11:19 AM
.........................................................

John you do not get to rewrite medical terminology. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy whether the conceptus be dead or alive. Ignoring the existance of the woman serves no purpose beyond dehumanizing her.
Extending 'human rights' to a conceptus negates the human rights of the woman. The woman does not gain life through the conceptus rather the other way around.
To say that pregnancy is about living is projecting your personal concepts of mysticism upon the process. Obviously if the woman isn't living there is no development of human life for the conceptus. If a conceptus never develops a brain, is it still 'living'? Is it a 'human life'? How can it die if it never had the ability to live?

Uh, now we can sum up the ignorance of Erin and the bible. Not knowing a cock crows reveals your prejudice too Erin.
Try looking in the bible before you're(!!!!! for you hypocrite Erin) soo sure of a what your writing about, hypocrite. I think you should look up Matthew 26. It might be the first time you ever looked at a bible. I can excuse your ignorance Erin of the bible,, but it does show a certain ignorance of culture and customs of Western English and common expressions. Are you under 25 years old Erin? Most under 25 years old are ignorant of the expression, the cock crowed three times. It is a form of forced cultural prejudice from being raised in a secular house.
Are you a atheist Erin? A second generation atheist? No, wait, atheist know the bible from always using quotes and snipets(gee, did I spell that right Erin, the hypocrite?) of the bible to confirm their hate of Christians.
I bet your just ignorant from your Humpty Dumptyism definitions you make up constantly to refuse your hypocrisy.
"Verily I say unto You", that before Erin uses a dictionary to define the word hypocrite, that this day, "before the cock crow", Erin shalt deny the definition thrice.
"Before the cock crow three times", Erin will become Humpty Dumpty and make a foolish hypocrite out of herself again. And she, Erin, "went out", and "wept bitterly".

Now Erin, using a poetic mind and that may be beyound(uh ho, a "u" in beyound) your capability, what is a crow known for in poetry, and maybe in the bible, to signify, represent, or image?
You know, starting with the natural actions of a animal or bird in this case, what do they do?
A lion is strong. A Japanese "stork"(used on JAL) represents faithfulness and life long commitment, from being "married" to one stork their whole life. A crow eats. A crow eats eyes of the dead humans in the killing fields of mankind. Get the picture yet Erin the hypocrite?
Read it again Erin. Think Erin. Think again Erin.
Does a hypocrite contain honesty? Honesty; Truthfulness; sincerity. Houghton Miflin.
A hypocrite thinks he is being honest,such as you Erin. But, that comes from thinking a cock is a crow, from making up Humpty Dumpty definitions to avoid what has been eaten out of their character, their honesty.
Be honest Erin, post the definition of hypocrisy, from a dictionary Erin. Look it up please Erin.
But, post the dictionary definition to me Erin to show me my ignorance of the word.
Meanwhile till then Erin. Your still a hypocrite who preaches for the practice of self love and does not practice the act. HYPOCRITE.

Yvonne,

WELL SAID! That's exactly what I believe.

What I saw as a undergraduate social work intern sickened me to the core. I served in a domestic adoption agency, open adoptions only (they were very self-righteous about that and condemning of agencies that did closed and semi-open adoptions. They even refused to work with birthmoms that weren't comfortable with open adoptions). They said that they thoroughly counsel the women on the parenting option because "When that baby is born, the woman is thinking, "What can I possibly do not to be separated from this person?" so we make sure she knows she's incapable of parenting beforehand so she doesn't decide to parent at the hospital."

So basically, their "counseling" was to seal the deal. They crack out a whiteboard and do a budget with the birthmom. They write down all of the costs associated with having a baby, have her go to the store and price items so she'll come to the realization that she can't afford that child. That is then hammered into her mind. Never does the social worker explain student aid for women of dependant children, never do they explain state childcare subsidies, supplemental nutrition programs and ways that birthmom can get the help she needs. While a girl is pregnant, her rent, bills and other expenses are paid. If a girl decides to parent, she's dropped. And when I say dropped, there is no follow-up casework to help her with the child she felt she couldn't parent. The client of the adoption agency is solely the baby and in their mind, the babies are better off with a homestudied, stable, referenced Christian couple rather than a woman in crisis who thinks placing is the best option.

Serious judgements are placed on these ladies. I was co-facilitating a support group for birthmoms when the exercise asked them to talk about their dreams and plans post placing their babies. When someone responded "have fun," the evil bitch of a social worker said, "Well, I think the girls in here have had a little too much fun and that's why they're birthmoms." The girl next to me, a girl in foster care and a rape victim, started crying. My classmate who I'd been in college with for over a year and just got the courage to tell me she was a birthmom had joined my group to encourage the girls about following their dreams (we were graduating together in a month). I was offended on her behalf. This was 4 years ago, but I still want to smack that social worker in the face. My thoughts at the time where, "No, they're birthmoms because they cared enough about their babies to give them life, even life with another family. They could have aborted and not had to take any crap from you!"

There is still coercion. It's still heartbreaking and I think people only see the adoptive parent's side, not the birthparents.

*sigh* Some people just can't be taught.

It is really simple Sally. Post the definition from a medical dictionary for the word ABORTION.
Being one who is for truth and honesty in discussions about Abortion. Do us all a favor, Post a medical dictionary definition of the word Abortion. And the complete definition please. Don't cheat. Paste it, cut it, but do something to make us aware of the medical dictionary definition of abortion.

Still waiting for a official dictionary definition for the word hypocrisy, Erin. Post it hypocrite Erin. Your personal definitions are Humpty Dumtyism defined.

Sigh, Some people can't use a dictionary. Some people can't be taught to use a dictionary.

I don't own a medical dictionary. I am not a doctor.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion

Whatever Doug has to write about abortion and "person qualities", it is to affirm his belief in women are permitted to kill.

yllas, they are permitted to have abortions, to a point in gestation, anyway. That is not a matter of "belief," that is external fact. You may not like it, but it is fact.

In your great quest of expressing your personal nastiness, which is all that you are apparently capable of, rather than addressing the issues, can you at least not start every post of yours with a falsehood?

A fairly humble request.

Doug

Why are you a hypocrite to me Erin?
Remember what you preach for Erin?
You publicly affirm/preach/ for masturbation.
Yes or no. And if my memory is correct, everyone here is preaching for masturbation, which includes you Erin.
Did you not write to me, you do NOT PRACTICE masturbation? Yes or no?
Which is why I remembered your name Erin.
It was soo amazing to see such hypocrisy in a person being admitted soo freely. And with a certain pride in their hypocrisy.
You played the shy and shocked gambit, to deflect your self admitted hypocrisy.
Sigh.
Another hypocrite who denies being a hypocrite for nothing more then what Erin? Why do you deny your self admitted hypocrisy where you preach for masturbation, and does NOT PRACTICE masturbation.
Why Erin? Why do you deny such a minor character flaw?

Do you profess that women may kill their fetus Doug? Yes or no.
Belief. Mental acceptance of a conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something. Houghton Miflin.
Do you belief in allowing women to kill their fetus, baby, human being,? Yes or no.

Do you NOT BELIEF in ALLOWING women to kill their fetus,baby, human being, non person tissue growing as a parasite? Yes or no.
In your great quest for expressing your personal nastiness towards women by allowing them to kill, could you at least apologize to me for that rant about some women you knew, which you enjoyed character assassinating on this post board? Or start with apologizing to her, for leaving her in her hour of need and then remembering her sooo fondly to those who did not need to know your selfish story.

yllas: You assassinated her personality, character, life, and anything else she was

Nonsense. yllas, women have the freedom they do in the matter of abortion, and you have no persuasive argument against that. You have nothing demonstrable as to why your opinion should be legally forced on pregnant women. I don't think you have even made the attempt to put such forth.

Rather than even make the honest attempt, you instantly retreat into childish ad hominems. This may be a forum for you to express your own personal unpleasantness, but that is no substitute for rational discourse. We've all seen message board trolls, and at least one po-lifer has already called you a nutball.

Earlier this month Ray said to you,

Again with the ranting, Yllas. You keep throwing out seemingly rhetorical attack questions, but I still have no idea what point you are trying to make. Please compose a paragraph that clearly expresses your thoughts.

I am guessing you are not capable of that.

Doug

Erin, look up "echolia" or "echolalia" along with schizophrenia. The repeated words - as if chanting - the circular logic and the elaborate stories and personal details she creates about people she's never met are pretty much textbook.

Erin: yllas- no they aren't. It's just you.

Easy for you to say, Erin - you're a full-fledged "Vicelord," while I only made it to "Pessimist." ; )

Erin, to yllas: Lets see if you can take this lesson....

Erin, Laura thinks yllas is the former "Jenntito," from other message boards, and if so then there's no hope - that one gained total Fruitballoon status (and in fact is a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame). She sanctified herself with a sanctimony of self-fruitification.

Maybe yllas isn't her though.

Doug

Let's start with biology before we wander into intangible theological rhetoric.

Sally, do you think that biology is really the argument, though?

Doug

Why Doug, does anybody have a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in the matter of abortion?
ANYBODY?

When are you going to apologize Doug? To much of man, unable to apologize to a women who was suffering through "hard times"?
Cat's in the cradle Doug.

yllas: Do you NOT BELIEF in ALLOWING women to kill their fetus,baby, human being, non person tissue growing as a parasite?

That's not what you were saying, Homie. Jenntito, is that you? : ) Anyway, it is not a matter of belief that women are legally allowed to have abortions in some cases.
......

Whatever Doug has to write about abortion and "person qualities", it is to affirm his belief in women are permitted to kill.

"yllas, they are permitted to have abortions, to a point in gestation, anyway. That is not a matter of "belief," that is external fact. You may not like it, but it is fact."

If you want my opinion about something, you have but to ask for it. I imagine you have already been able to glean that, though, after your calm and assiduous reading of the messages here.

Doug

yllas: When are you going to apologize Doug?

If you can do no better than conjure up falsehoods, do you seriously expect anybody else to apologize for them?

Express some regret, ask pardon, for a offense Doug.
How many times you been married Doug?
But, does anybody have a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the fredom to do what they want in the matter of abortion?
ANYBODY?

yllas 3:14PM

What's with the attack on Erin? Really, this is getting tacky. I'm almost embarassed for you. I have to wonder if Laura has a valid point in her 3:40pm post.

How many times you been married Doug?

Just once. Didn't do it until I was 41 years old. Glad I waited that long. Met her in an AOL chatroom, she in New Mexico, me in Ohio. Nov. 22, 1996 - anniversary coming up.

Prior to getting a computer and being online, I would have scoffed at the idea of meeting somebody like that. Things moved fast - I went out and visited her right after Christmas 1996, and again in January, then she came and stayed with me in Baltimore where I was working in February.

She moved in with me April 2, 1997, and almost three years later to the day we got married - 4-1-2000, no foolin'.

I was working in Mobile, AL, until today and now I'm at our place in GA, southwest of Atlanta, for perfect weather and still-beautiful tree foliage, while winter plots against the North. My wife got home and is working out, and I don't go back to work until the Sunday after Thanksgiving, so it'll be a great time.

Doug

et's start with biology before we wander into intangible theological rhetoric.

Sally, do you think that biology is really the argument, though?

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2007 3:47 PM
.............................................

Only in the sense that the woman's biology is most definately necessary for the creation of a new 'human being' Doug. Religionists often insist upon superimposing their mystical beliefs over biological fact.

Bobby just sent me the pictures....Wow, it's so great to put a face with a name! Bobby, you and your wife make such a beautiful couple. And she was GORGEOUS for just having delivered a baby.
And of course, your baby Gianna is just plain adorable!!

Posted by: Bethany at November 16, 2007 6:50 AM
......................................

Look at all that hair! My kids were bald. Again congrats Bobbie!

But Sally, this is actually the foundational point. The biology should inform our philosophy, not the other way around. Did you read what Doug wrote above? In fact, look at your quote of the day. You are making a philisophical observation. None of this is theological. Sure we use these same terms in theology, but this has nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 16, 2007 1:21 PM
....................................................................

Yes Bobbie, if one feels it necessary to philosophize over biology it should follow biological accuracies. I completely fail to find anythink mystical about my post. Theology is philosophy.

Religionists often insist upon superimposing their mystical beliefs over biological fact.

Sally, I really don't see that much of that, because I don't see those facts as the issue.

There are side arguments about fetal pain, sentience, etc., but I see the real argument boiling down to different desires, even if from mysticism or from what others have told us.

Doug

How many times you been married Doug?

Just once. Didn't do it until I was 41 years old. Glad I waited that long. Met her in an AOL chatroom, she in New Mexico, me in Ohio. Nov. 22, 1996 - anniversary coming up.

Prior to getting a computer and being online, I would have scoffed at the idea of meeting somebody like that. Things moved fast - I went out and visited her right after Christmas 1996, and again in January, then she came and stayed with me in Baltimore where I was working in February.

She moved in with me April 2, 1997, and almost three years later to the day we got married - 4-1-2000, no foolin'.

I was working in Mobile, AL, until today and now I'm at our place in GA, southwest of Atlanta, for perfect weather and still-beautiful tree foliage, while winter plots against the North. My wife got home and is working out, and I don't go back to work until the Sunday after Thanksgiving, so it'll be a great time.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2007 5:31 PM
.......................................................

Does your wife miss green chilli?

Religionists often insist upon superimposing their mystical beliefs over biological fact.

Sally, I really don't see that much of that, because I don't see those facts as the issue.

There are side arguments about fetal pain, sentience, etc., but I see the real argument boiling down to different desires, even if from mysticism or from what others have told us.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 16, 2007 8:56 PM
.....................................................................

I agree. But it is really interesting to understand where others are coming from. What their personal issues are about abortion

Doug.

Is there anybody at this post board who has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Sally.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Erin the hypocrite.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Mary.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Bobby Bambino.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should have freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Laura.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Jen R ~ Re: Diane,

Your group sounds very interesting! Is there a web site or something where we could read more about it?
----------------------
I am just in the beginning stages of developing such a group. I have no web site at this time. I will most likely work along with a church or non-profit to implement this proposed group. This would be an excellent response as counter to the abortion clinic which just opened here in Aurora, IL.

Erin.
Are you Sally using another name?
I asked you for a dictionary definition of the word, HYPOCRITE from you, ERIN.
I asked Sally for the medical dictionary definition of ABORTION.

yllas,

In all seriousness, some of your posts are rational, others are irrational. You seem fixated on Erin.
Actually, Laura's 11/16 3:40PM post is something I've thought about as well.
Its not unusual with mental illness to function rationally one day, and be irrational the next. Have you considered any kind of assessment and possible treatment by a good mental health professional?
I say this out of concern, not meanness, because quite honestly, some of your posts have struck me as bizarre, while others have made more sense. Also, your fixation on Erin is not healthy. I hope for your sake more than anything you will look into this possibility and I wish you every success in getting the help you may need.

Diane-

I am a single mother myself and think your idea is a GREAT one. I would love to help in any way I can.

Does your wife miss green chilli?

Ha! Oh yes, Sally, and she makes a great Green Chile Stew. We last went to NM in 2005 and had the green stuff probably 15 out of 20 meals.

yllas: Is there anybody at this post board who has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

There are some who think they do, but you've done nothing in that area, just made lame attempts at insult.

Doug

Just like Laura has a bizarre fixation on ME! She may wish to seek help also.

Does your wife miss green chilli?

Ha! Oh yes, Sally, and she makes a great Green Chile Stew. We last went to NM in 2005 and had the green stuff probably 15 out of 20 meals.

Posted by: Doug at November 17, 2007 11:40 AM
.........................................

Do they even sell Bueno where you are? I'd be lost without my green chilli fix.

Sally.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Posted by: yllas at November 16, 2007 10:03 PM
..........................................................

Ceratainly not you backwards sally. Your rantings are that of a raving loon.

Sally.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that a women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want concerning abortion.?
IF you cannot answer this simple question, your simply here to spend time playing with yourself and others willing to read a person whose mind is bigoted and closed.

Doug.
Is there anybody here, at this post board that has a persusive argument that a women should not have the freedom to do what she wants concering matters of abortion?

Your ability to not answer the above question , is not a mark of intelligence, but a simple fact your a propagandist for abortion, and everyone here knows that Doug.
By not answering the above question to you Doug, which has been asked twice, reveals your closed mind for abortion by reason of allowing women to chose to kill a developing human being within a woman.
Which brings up the question, what are you doing here at this post board? Your mind is closed and made hard from being a hard person, Doug. Your a lonely person Doug, and you must find a site where you may get your strokes and pokes at people.

Mary.
Is there anybody at this post board that has a persuasive argument that a women should NOT have the freedom to do what she wants in matters of abortion?
Mary.
If you are reading my post and consider me beneath you by reason of mental illness, then what does that make you for reading the post of a person you have judged mentally challenged?
But, may I suggest, not reading them Mary.
If my post are not addressed to you Mary, then your reason for addressing me is nothing more then the need to do what Mary?
Express your opinion to me concering Erin?
My opinion of Erin is based upon a person who simply is a hypocrite, which is just my opinion from the fact that Erin is.
Kind of the reasoning of Doug. Facts, facts, and more facts which are just based on a belief that women can kill their off spring.

But, since you could not answer a simple question, as Doug and Sally could not, your here to just play with yourself and use others for your loneliness for conversation.

yllas,

Please take my advise, it is given with the best intentions.

Mary.
Does Jill Stanek have a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

Yes, many have been persuaded by Jill Stanek's arguments about abortion. There are always those that will not be persuaded (regardless of the soundness of the argument), but her arguments definitely are persuasive to many.

yllas: Is there anybody at this post board who has a persuasive argument that women should NOT have the freedom to do what they want in matters of abortion?

"There are some who think they do, but you've done nothing in that area, just made lame attempts at insult."

Your ability to not answer the above question , is not a mark of intelligence, but a simple fact your a propagandist for abortion, and everyone here knows that Doug.

yllas, I am fine with everything you say. "Everyone knows"? I agree with that, but what they know is not what you want to hear.

I could give you different answers, but they would not be the truth. You apparently want to hear what is not the truth.

I'm pro-choice. If nobody wants to end pregnancies then I'm not "for abortion." Beyond that, as if the noose isn't tight enough on you yet, I'm content to let you hang yourself.

Doug

Doug, your answers are totally confusing. No offense, but do you even know what the heck you're talking about?

Doug, your answers are totally confusing.

No.
......

No offense, but do you even know what the heck you're talking about?

None taken, Heather; and yes.

What, specifically, are you confused about?

Out of curiosity, noting the earlier conversation, why do any of you think people are more humane with animals than people?

I, personally, have witnessed many atrocious acts upon animals. Are any of you familiar with dog fighting? It's brutal, cruel and inhumane. Many people are abusive to their animals without even batting an eye, because they're "animals." They yell at them, hit them, kill them, and so on, and no one ever investigates. Many of the dogs and cats that are abused end up in shelters, where they're put down because they're unfit to live with humans. Because of what humans did to them--which are some of the same acts we do to children.

As far as humanity toward pregnant cats/dogs... sure, they let the mother breed and don't abort the kittens/puppies. But if those kittens or puppies don't get sold within a certain timeframe, what happens? That's right, they're killed. As will the mother, if she isn't adopted.

In Chicago, every animal that goes into a shelter is spayed or neutered so that it can't produce any "unwanted" animals. Compare to human society. Should everyone who would produce unwanted children be sterilized? Perhaps permanently? Why are we okay denying our pets the "wonderful opportunity of motherhood/fatherhood," when human beings are discouraged from vasectomies, tubal litigation, hysterectomies, and by many pro-lifers--birth control?? Wouldn't we solve the problem of unwanted kids/kittens if we sterilized everyone?

Even no-kill shelters in Chicago are so full that they often end up sending the animals to other kill shelters where the animal inevitably ends up dead.

Don't try to tell me that animals are treated more humanely than human beings. No one would protest the forced sterilization of a cat or the murder of her kittens. But they would protest an abortion chosen by the woman carrying the child.

For the record, both of my cats were adopted. I never buy kittens from pet stores because I know how close the lives of shelter cats are to death.

Five years ago my niece was pregnant and was in the process of giving her baby up for adoption and I offered that I would take her baby in until she could stand on her feet again. At that point she decided to keep her baby. She is now a full time college student and yesterday she found out that she is getting a full scholarship to a university. I am very proud of her and she is a great mother.

Diane, you hit on exactly the point that would turn me pro-life. If there were people like you in the world that were willing to help raise a child (all children) when the mother was unable to, I think no children should be aborted.

Fact is, we don't have those support systems, and everyone is becoming more and more selfish as time goes on.

Yeah, it's easy for people to be pro-life. It's not easy to be the type of person who will take care of another person in need of help. Nor is it easy for a mother/father to relinquish their pride and ask for help.

I admire you for taking that step. I've always said, once I get older and a little more stable, I'm going to offer a home to young people who've been kicked out of their own homes. I'm fortunate enough to have friends who've taken care of me, so I'm going to repay the favor. In fact, I kind of do that now, but it means you've gotta sleep on the mattress on the floor and buy your own meals, 'cause I don't have a lot of money!

Anyway, that's besides the point. What we need in America and around the world is a structurally sound support system in which no one needs to worry about where a child will live if his or her parents can't take care of him (whatever the reason.)

P.S. Everyone else who keeps implying pro-choicers are slutty--I've known more than a few pro-lifers with an awful lot of lovers. It's easy to give someone a bad label because of a belief you don't agree with, but that doesn't make it right, nor does your stereotyping help create a better community. Perhaps if you were a lot less judgmental, more people would come to your side. But one of the big reasons I (and others I know) left religion is because of the people in it, so keep that in mind when pushing your beliefs on someone while stereotyping them.

Edyt said:
But one of the big reasons I (and others I know) left religion is because of the people in it, so keep that in mind when pushing your beliefs on someone while stereotyping them.

I really don't recall anyone "pushing" beliefs on someone. We all express our own unique opinios here. If you take my religious beliefs as being "pushed" on you, I do apologize. God is a HUGE part of my life, so I tend to talk about Him in some of my posts. .

However, if you left a "religion" because of the people in it, perhaps you were in the wrong religion. I do not belong to any religious organization, nor do I attend church. I read the Bible and let God speak to me through his word.

I do agree with you that no one should be jugdged by another. I mean, who are we to judge someone else? "Those without sin may cast the first stone".

Hang in there, Edyt, be your own person with your own beliefs, but please do not give up on God....He surely hasn't given up on you!

Hang in there, Edyt, be your own person with your own beliefs, but please do not give up on God....He surely hasn't given up on you!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 18, 2007 9:12 PM
.......................................................................

Portraying God as a stalker isn't exactly appealing Laura.

Hi Laura & Edyt,

there is little doubt that Laura has hit upon something in scripture, but I personally find God very difficult to comprehend most of the time. So, going to church and being bored out-of-my-tree, can be a such a restful pause. I do not even have to take an interest - I can be bored like the rest of the congregation!

This is facetious; but I do find regular work and school very limiting by comparison! And most PC ideas lame ... and I do know 'lame'!

Edyt,

I would certainly protest the murdering of kittens. I love kitties. A kitty showed up on my door last year (somebody just left it there)..and now we have one. We were more of a "dog family" but now we have 2 dogs and a cat.
-----------------------------------------------
Anyway, that's besides the point. What we need in America and around the world is a structurally sound support system in which no one needs to worry about where a child will live if his or her parents can't take care of him (whatever the reason.)

-----------------------------------------------

What you are describing Edyt, is a perfect world. A world without hunger, pain, suffering, etc. And I hate to burst anyone's bubble on this one..but that won't ever happen. There will always be people suffering. There will always be injustice..there will always be people who can't or just plain refuse to take care of their kids. All you can do is try to help your fellow humans. And that is what I believe, as a pro-lifer I am trying to accomplish. If these unborn are at least given a CHANCE at life, think of what they could do with it. They could change the world. Even if their life isn't PERFECT, it can still be something wonderful. My life isn't perfect, and I don't have everything I want (yet), but my life sure is wonderful. Because that's how I CHOOSE to look at it. Taking that choice away from an unborn baby just because of their age is unjust and wrong. And I will pray and protest until their is no more breath in my body to do so, in hopes that maybe lives will be saved somewhere along the line.

P.S. Everyone else who keeps implying pro-choicers are slutty--I've known more than a few pro-lifers with an awful lot of lovers. It's easy to give someone a bad label because of a belief you don't agree with, but that doesn't make it right, nor does your stereotyping help create a better community. Perhaps if you were a lot less judgmental, more people would come to your side. But one of the big reasons I (and others I know) left religion is because of the people in it, so keep that in mind when pushing your beliefs on someone while stereotyping them.

----------------------------------------------

I've never implied pro-choicer's are slutty. And I'm sure there are a few pro-lifer's who are slutty. We all make mistakes and we all have our shortcomings. I do not think it is right to put anyone else in a categorical box because of their knowledge of SOME of their actions. Do our actions define us as human beings? No. They are only a fraction of who we are as people and who we can become. Truth be told, nobody really has room to judge another person unless they are perfect themselves. But we're all humans, so someone being judgemental of others is a common shortcoming we all have to learn to overcome. I hope you will not hold it too much against some of us, this topic is an emotional one, and name-calling on both sides has happened a bit.

Doug, There are times when your posting is VERY confusing. Sorry. I just don't get what you get what you find so funny at times.

*oops* it's supposed to read...I just don't get what you find so funny at times......Typos.

Doug, I don't find abortion a laughing matter.

I think what Heather might be confused about, or at least one of the things she is having a problem with, is this comment:

"I'm pro-choice. If nobody wants to end pregnancies then I'm not "for abortion.""

I mean, would it sound right to you, if someone said,

"I'm pro-*choice* to steal. If nobody wants to steal, then I'm not "for stealing".

Or
I'm pro-*choice* to murder. If nobody wants to end other people's lives then I'm not "for killing with premeditated malice".

Bethany: I mean, would it sound right to you, if someone said, "I'm pro-*choice* to steal. If nobody wants to steal, then I'm not "for stealing".Or, I'm pro-*choice* to murder. If nobody wants to end other people's lives then I'm not "for killing with premeditated malice".

Well, who really is "pro-choice" for stealing? I don't want people to steal. I'm not worrying about what they want, there. Different from being for what the pregnant woman wants.

Well, who really is "pro-choice" for stealing? I don't want people to steal. I'm not worrying about what they want, there. Different from being for what the pregnant woman wants.

Doug, why don't you care what they want? What if they desire it greatly? What if they are stealing as their only means to survive?

By the way, as hard as it may be to believe, there actually ARE people who are pro-choice to steal.

I anticipate a virtually flogging for this because I believe that many pro-lifers have their heads in the sand in this regard. After all, adoption is the loving option. Our signs and stickers declare it. But even when adoption is the best solution in a given situation, it is never without pain for almost everyone involved.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Adoption may not be the best option in all cases, nor would I want to see any mother, whatever her life situation to be pressured to give up her children. However, in my case (closed adoption, which I advocate), I wasn't affected badly, my parents don't appear to be affected badly, and I rarely, if ever, think about my birth mother except to offer thanks for the gift of life. I never think about the sperm donor.

I will never use my opinions of the quality of life of a child to either kill him or her in the womb, or take him or her away from his mother.

However, I don't believe that I'm unique in regard to having a blessed life experience by being adopted.

Doug,

How about pro*stealing* depending on the "value" of what's being stolen?

I mean is stealing gum okay, but not stealing diamonds. If it's all valuation, wouldn't the greater desire for stealing the gum overide the smaller desire not to have a lousy 25cent pack of gum stolen?

If we're going to weigh things by "valuation" then why not here?

Doug,

I think the problem here is that we would both agree stealing is wrong and that there is no "degree" of worse stealing and better stealing.

And that is what you do with life. You make degrees of life have different degrees of value.

If an action is wrong, is it wrong, or is it wrong in degrees?

Is taking human life based on degrees? Or is human life, human life?

And why does a pregnant womans desires rate, while a theif's do not. Why is she given special dispensation to end human life, simply because she has the desire to do so, while a thief is not given the same leeway?

I mean is stealing gum okay, but not stealing diamonds. If it's all valuation, wouldn't the greater desire for stealing the gum overide the smaller desire not to have a lousy 25cent pack of gum stolen?

Thank you, MK...excellent point!

Sally said,
"Portraying God as a stalker isn't exactly appealing Laura. "

Posted by: Sally at November 18, 2007 10:09 PM

Then Sally, I encourage you not to portray Him as such!

"Well, who really is "pro-choice" for stealing? I don't want people to steal. I'm not worrying about what they want, there. Different from being for what the pregnant woman wants."

Bethany: Doug, why don't you care what they want?

What is operative is that I care more about what the people who own the property want in that case. Don't you?
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What if they desire it greatly?

I still prefer that the owners get their druthers versus the thieves.
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What if they are stealing as their only means to survive?

A classic question. That basic "suffering" consideration of mine kicks in. I think the suffering of a parent, for example, stealing to feed their kids, outweighs the harm to society due to the theft of food.

So that situation would make a difference to me. It's not saying that "stealing is right," it's saying that there may be no good way to go, there, and I'd view it as the lesser of two "evils."

MK: How about pro*stealing* depending on the "value" of what's being stolen?

I mean is stealing gum okay, but not stealing diamonds. If it's all valuation, wouldn't the greater desire for stealing the gum overide the smaller desire not to have a lousy 25cent pack of gum stolen?

No, stealing gum is not okay. It will be seen differently from taking the diamonds, often, (different valuations of the severity of the crime) but that doesn't make it "okay." And who says the desire to steal is "greater" than the desire for the gum not to be stolen?

If the owner of the gum has a lesser desire to keep it, less enough that they give the gum to the gum-wanter, fine and dandy, but it's still the owner's choice.
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If we're going to weigh things by "valuation" then why not here?

We do, yet the difference betwixt petty theft and grand larceny isn't saying that petty theft is "okay."
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I think the problem here is that we would both agree stealing is wrong and that there is no "degree" of worse stealing and better stealing.

Well hang on here, MK. I see degrees all over the place. Stealing gum is one thing. Diamonds another. Stealing people's retirement money a la Enron another. Stealing a $10 bill from my wallet is one thing, and I see taking $10 worth of food off a starving family's table as another, even though they are the same monetary value. There are all sorts of degrees.
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And that is what you do with life. You make degrees of life have different degrees of value.

Yes, I do see different degrees of value, and additionally there is the woman to consider in the case of a pregnancy.
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If an action is wrong, is it wrong, or is it wrong in degrees?

It's wrong, but there are degrees, and other considerations may count for more.
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Is taking human life based on degrees? Or is human life, human life?

It's human life, but there are degrees here.
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And why does a pregnant woman's desires rate, while a thief's does not.

Because it's her pregnancy, while if a thief is to steal something, it's not his.
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Why is she given special dispensation to end human life, simply because she has the desire to do so, while a thief is not given the same leeway?

Because it is inside her, for the most part. If the thief has stolen something and it ends up inside him, then while I think it was wrong for him to steal, I fully support him in taking it out of himself.

What you are describing Edyt, is a perfect world. A world without hunger, pain, suffering, etc. And I hate to burst anyone's bubble on this one..but that won't ever happen. There will always be people suffering. There will always be injustice..there will always be people who can't or just plain refuse to take care of their kids. All you can do is try to help your fellow humans. And that is what I believe, as a pro-lifer I am trying to accomplish. If these unborn are at least given a CHANCE at life, think of what they could do with it. They could change the world. Even if their life isn't PERFECT, it can still be something wonderful. My life isn't perfect, and I don't have everything I want (yet), but my life sure is wonderful. Because that's how I CHOOSE to look at it. Taking that choice away from an unborn baby just because of their age is unjust and wrong. And I will pray and protest until their is no more breath in my body to do so, in hopes that maybe lives will be saved somewhere along the line.

Elizabeth,

I hardly think I'm describing a perfect world. What I'm describing is a world where there is more of a community than we have now. We as human beings have become such deep individuals and so closed off from the rest of the world that we have forgotten to love.

What I'm suggesting is right now, an idealistic solution. But it's not an impractical one. It's one that we need and can have. In fact, it's a kind of society that old cultures have had.

It's called community. Where people take care of each other. I really believe that the red scare ruined a lot of opportunities for peaceful living.

I understand that not all kids will get adopted. I understand that not all kids will grow up in a healthy home. But that doesn't mean that we should sit by and let it happen, like we do now. The thing is, we need to support each other through the pain. Not ignore it and pretend everything's okay. Even death is often mourned alone.

Our country especially has become so divided from red vs. blue that we can't even talk to each other without the insults. Seriously, is this the kind of childishness we're going to live with our entire lives?

I hope not.

And it really makes me sad that no one else seems to give a damn about fixing our world. Just argue all the time until you're blue in the face, and hope someone is going to pass the laws you want so you can live your miserable little lives feeling justified.

Well, I care about the kids, and I'm actually using my talents to help create a better future for them (as much as I can). And until we have a better future laid out with solutions at hand, unlike the shot in the dark and vicious arguments we have now, then you really can't blame people for getting abortions. That's all.

Edyt, wow what a great post!

You're right - some of us just love to argue, and the world would probably be a better place were we to invest our energy in it. No pointing fingers here; especially me.

My wife teaches high school, a comparitively disadvantaged school with students who are the same way. Lots of family problems, behavior problems, and she's got 150 kids each year. It's hard sometimes, usually, in fact, and from time to time she'll think how it would be to teach in a "rich" school with mostly college-prep kids who are self-starters, etc.

In the end what keeps her is the feeling that, "If I abandon them, then who is going to teach them?" I think that's pretty good, and I love her for it.

Doug