I blogged here and here that Wayne State University's Medical Students for Choice invited late-term MI abortionist Alberto Hodari to speak November 9.

Students for Life of America was there to catch the 50 minute speech on videotape with two cameras and will be releasing "best of" clips. The first is below.

Let me preface the clip by giving a shout out to the WSU abortion apprentices who invited Hodari: Kia Jones, Jonathan Oakes, Katie O'Connell, and Cynthia Velting-Kidder. I'm not sure which one introduced Hodari, but there's her picture on the right.

And we upset her, sorry to say. At the close of her intro she said, "I'm sure pretty much everyone here knows that this has been... there's been a lot of [unintelligible] surrounding this talk. One of our fellow students sent our flyer to the national pro-life people. We are now all blogged on their blogs, and you know, it's pretty upsetting that a fellow student would do that to us, brand us, so people know what kind of people we are. But we're here to stay and we're not intimidated by that and we really appreciate everyone coming out becuase it makes all that perhaps worth it."

I'm not sure why we would be considered intimidating when the young woman was standing next to a man who has been accused of killing at least two women and maiming many more.

And "brand"? Why would publicizing one's profession be considered "branding"? She should thank us. I'm hurt. And my dear, you don't need pro-life bloggers to broadcast what kind of people you are. You're doing fine broadcasting that on your own.

At any rate, here is the first clip, and it will not disappoint After ridiculing aborting fathers who pass out while observing their child being sliced and diced, Hodari admits to lying to both father and patients about the procedure. Hodari's braggadocio is quite shocking, quite stupid, actually. What a guy. How long will abortion proponents try to say these quack abortionists are anomalies?

Note this abortionist only lies less now thanks to public education about abortion, no thanks to the industry. This video clip should be shown at every legislative hearing on Women's Right to Know laws - which the industry always fights. It's no wonder.

I sure wish they had the whole speech on video...

So this is their hero...the guy they chose to come and speak to them?

Notice he only stopped lying because he was getting caught.

sociopath.

I'm not sure why we would be considered intimidating when the young woman was standing next to a man who has been accused of killing at least two women and maiming many more.

Bingo.

MK, they do have the whole thing on tape. They're releasing clips.

Jill,

That's awesome! Will you be playing all of them. I imagine there is enough fuel there to keep the fire going for awhile...

We have Mother Teresa and John Paul II and they have Tiller and this clown...no accounting for taste.

here's the whole thing on video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1501203594473488539

Thanks Ben...he's so hard to understand. Will they be putting the "subtitles" in?

This guy makes me sick. How on earth do these people live with themselves.

Such a shame! Can you imagine lying to a breast cancer patient about treatment outcomes and side effects. Oh I forgot, breast cancer is one of the risks you take if you have an abortion.
The amazing thing to me is the laughter I hear in the background from the women present!! Unbelievable that they are amused. Maybe ignorance IS bliss!

Just what is the lady whining about? So what if a student sent out a flyer to pro-life blogs? The existence of the internet and blogs is news to her? Why would she care who knows about her group and who they were hosting for a talk? If she's proud of what she'd doing and stands for, the more people that know the better.

How long will abortion proponents try to say these quack abortionists are anomalies?

I don't know. Love is blind.

For those of us who are Christians, this is a situation that really challenges our faith. Can we really and honestly say that we love this man and hope that he experiences the Beatific vision? Tough stuff.

Bobby,

Honestly? yes. Because of Bernard Nathanson. And because of my own past. Not to believe that even he could change is to give up hope. And I can't do that.

Will he change? Probably not. But I sincerely want him to.

Wow,

He sure is bragging about lying to patients.

Do all doctors brag about lying to patients.

I know a few doctors socially, but I have never heard any that talk about blatantly lying to patients.

HMMMM, he loves what he does? Which part of it? Does he enjoy tearing children limb from limb, or does he like the women who cry while they're on the table as he proceeds to suck their insides out? Could it be the boyfriends who have passed out? Maybe he finds some humor in that. He did chuckle a bit. Maybe he just loves being above the law. It's tragic that a human being could have such a sick mind set. It's tragic that women support this.

So Hodari doesn't feel bad or worried about doing abortions. Why would he think he should?
When was the last time your OB/GYN, family practitioner, or surgeon told you he/she didn't feel bad about what they do?

Gee, the proaborts are silent on this one. Is it clear yet why we need parental consent/notification. Another bottom of the barrel abortionist. Children need to be protected from these predators. I cannot believe college girls would listen to his crap. Please God give me strength not to lose hope for these college girls.

We are now all blogged on their blogs, and you know, it's pretty upsetting that a fellow student would do that to us, brand us, so people know what kind of people we are.

Then stop being those kind of people! Stop being the kind of person you're ashamed to be known as.

I hope that some of the people in the audience had a change of heart (or maybe got one) after his speech. That's just sickening. And to hear the chuckles from the audience - disgusting!

Gee, the proaborts are silent on this one. Is it clear yet why we need parental consent/notification.

Tim, (believe me...) if I see something I think is worth arguing about, I'll go for it. There aren't any "proaborts" here that I know of, but there are quite a few pro-choicers.

Many times, I think parental notification is a good thing, but not always. There are some parents who would deny their daughters abortions when it would be the best thing for the daughters, and in those cases I wouldn't want the parents to be notified or have to give consent.

There was a news item not long ago about a couple who wanted to force their daughter to have an abortion when she didn't want one, and there too I would not leave it up to the parents. Just basic pro-choice stuff.

Doug

Doug,

There's a catch 22 to your argument that parents shouldn't always have to give consent. Suppose the young girl begins developing complications?
A little excess bleeding, a low grade temperature, you know, symptoms that one can easily overlook, may not regard as serious, or just be too fearful to acknowledge.
Will this minor girl know enough to get treatment? You see Doug, no hospital or doctor can treat her without parental consent. What if she needs hospitalization or treatment? You guessed it, mom and dad have to be notified. Maybe this fear would keep the girl from seeking help. I've seen mature women downplay serious symptoms and be uncertain as to what to do in similar circumstances, it certainly wouldn't be unthinkable for a minor child.
This isn't hypothetical either Doug. I've seen it happen. "Missy" had an abortion without the consent of her parents. She went to the ENT surgeon concerning her tonsils and happened to mention to him that she had unusual vaginal bleeding. He referred her to an OB/GYN. I have no idea if she told him of her abortion but it was necessary for the OB/GYN to do an exploratory laparoscopy and then a D&C. She was retaining fetal tissue, which by the way Doug, can result in a very deadly infection if not properly diagnosed and treated. Well, thank heaven she happened to say something to her ENT surgeon! Oh, and by the way Doug, the OB/GYN had to inform her parents of his findings.
Tell me Doug, should minors also decide if parents should be notified when they're doing poorly in school or are in trouble with the law?

Of course he's not worried about doing abortions. He's not the one who dies.

This guy is a piece of work, that's for sure, and those students should be ashamed that they say they stand for "women" and then bring in a quack who has killed two patients and hold him up as a role model.

But it's all about ME! "I felt intimidated that they were blogging about it!"

How about feeling ashamed that you want to emmulate a man who killed a fifteen year old girl!

Mary, in general I think parents need more involvement in and knowledge of their kids' lives these days - certainly as far as schoolwork and staying on the right side of the law.

Agreed that things can get complicated, too. Bottom line, I want what is best for the girl, and though I agree with you, there will still be times that the parents knowing and/or deciding will not be best for her.

Doug

Doug,

Fine, so what happens if she develops complications? Assuming of course she knows she's developing complications.

Gee, the proaborts are silent on this one. Is it clear yet why we need parental consent/notification. Another bottom of the barrel abortionist. Children need to be protected from these predators. I cannot believe college girls would listen to his crap. Please God give me strength not to lose hope for these college girls.

Posted by: Tim at November 19, 2007 4:09 PM
.........................

What's there to say Tim? Bottom of the barrel abortionist? He's a highly respected and honored OB/GYN who has delivered 25,000 babies. Bad bad man! @@

Doug,

Another thing. Not requiring parental consent protects adult male sex offenders who want their crimes covered up, and hopefully have their "girlfriends" put on birth control as well.
One can imagine they would oppose any kind of parental consent as well, don't you think?

Christina,

We really shouldn't be surprised that he's so cavalier about killing unborn children. When people deny killing unborn children is wrong, they have to continue that thought process. Everyday, the abortionists who come out of PP they blare their music as loud as they can. When they come in the morning or afternoon, we can't hear it. But again they have to distract and block out what they do and hear.

On Friday, while I was out there are girl and a guy came out of PP w/ a boy who was around 2. She had just had an abortion, she was crying, pushing the guy away, she wouldn't let him touch her all in front of the 2 year old. When the 2 year old went to be by her, she totally ignored him. She was white as a ghost, and it broke my heart. She was definately not happy, or proud of her decision. She acted like she was pushed into it. The guy however, was smiling and looked quite happy and content. He was acting like nothing had happened, yet she was shattered.

Sally,

What's there to say Tim? Bottom of the barrel abortionist? He's a highly respected and honored OB/GYN who has delivered 25,000 babies. Bad bad man! @@

Everything else aside, does it not bother you how cavalierly he brags about lying to his patients? And how he only curbs it now, because the public has grown too savvy?

Would you feel the same about any other doctor you were going to? An oncologist, who lied to you about your cancer treatment. Got you to try something that you wouldn't have tried if you'd known the truth? Or take a pill that wasn't what he told you it was? Even if he believed that he was lying to protect you from yourself? Don't you deserve the truth from your physician?

MK,

Also, wouldn't you have a problem with a doctor who says he/she doesn't feel bad and are not worried about what they do? Why should they feel bad or be worried?

On Friday, while I was out there are girl and a guy came out of PP w/ a boy who was around 2. She had just had an abortion, she was crying, pushing the guy away, she wouldn't let him touch her all in front of the 2 year old. When the 2 year old went to be by her, she totally ignored him. She was white as a ghost, and it broke my heart. She was definately not happy, or proud of her decision. She acted like she was pushed into it. The guy however, was smiling and looked quite happy and content. He was acting like nothing had happened, yet she was shattered.

Tara, that is so sad. :( And the saddest part, this is so commonly the way it happens.

Bethany,

Maybe the reason he's so happy is he just got off the hook.

Yeah, I think that would be it. It's so sad to think that there are jerks like that out there.

"Gee, the proaborts are silent on this one."

I noticed the same thing too, Tim. In fact, they were pretty much tight-lipped a few months back when Jill posted the 20th anniversay of the PBS Documentary "Abortion Clinic". The silence speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Bobby, your comment is even more poignant given the fact that you just witnessed the miracle of Gianna's birth.

"The Miracle of Abortion". Nope, just doesn't have the right nuance, does it?

"Bottom line, I want what is best for the girl, and though I agree with you, there will still be times that the parents knowing and/or deciding will not be best for her."

Imagine, if you will, Doug, your daughter. Thirteen. With Mr. Hodari. Your grandfetus about to be terminated.

Would your valuation permit that?

Remember, she's with Mr. Hodari.

Carder, 7:42PM

Imagine too that some 20 something sexual predator wants his crime covered up. Also, he would like your minor daughter on birth control so as to continue his "relationship" with her.
Imagine also that your daughter comes home from the clinic and a few days later is developing a fever and experiencing abnormal bleeding. You, her parent knows nothing of the abnormal bleeding and doesn't consider the fever any cause for concern, I mean, kids get sick, right?

Sally,

What's there to say Tim? Bottom of the barrel abortionist? He's a highly respected and honored OB/GYN who has delivered 25,000 babies. Bad bad man! @@

Everything else aside, does it not bother you how cavalierly he brags about lying to his patients? And how he only curbs it now, because the public has grown too savvy?

Would you feel the same about any other doctor you were going to? An oncologist, who lied to you about your cancer treatment. Got you to try something that you wouldn't have tried if you'd known the truth? Or take a pill that wasn't what he told you it was? Even if he believed that he was lying to protect you from yourself? Don't you deserve the truth from your physician?

Posted by: mk at November 19, 2007 6:25 PM
.............................................................................

The little snippet of his talk doesn't address what doctors lie to their patients about. Telling new parents that their homely baby is beautiful perhaps? That it was a joke of some kind is evidenced by the audiences laughter. Cavalerly bragging mk? Saying that doctors lie to their patients doesn't sound like bragging to me. It's really hard to tell what he was talking about at all from that little sound bite of video.

I am so glad I wasn't there. I would have bit--slapped him so hard! I noticed the smirk on his face when he spoke about the guys that passed out & the one that chipped his tooth. What an arrogant a-hole!

Doug said, "There was a news item not long ago about a couple who wanted to force their daughter to have an abortion when she didn't want one, and there too I would not leave it up to the parents. Just basic pro-choice stuff."

#1..after reading your posts, I am convinced that there is NOTHING basic about pro-choice stuff.

#2...That is not what parental notification is about.
From the wonderful City of Aurora, A City Second to None...The City of Lights......AN ORDINANCE to require parental notice for any Medical Procedure to be performed on a minor; to Medical Doctors to give notice to one parent or guardian at least 48 hours prior to any procedure; to provide for alternative notification in specified circumstances and to provide for judicial by-pass in specified circumstances; to provide exceptions; to provide for penalties; and to provide for related matters. http://familiesagainstplannedparenthood.org/docs/ParentalNotice.pdf (just in case you wanted to read the whole thing!)

Anyway, your scenario above is a seperate issue from Parental Notification...you see, the daughter was not going in for an abortion..her parents would be notified if she was...but she wasn't...two totally separate issues, unless there's more to this story that I am not aware of.

#3...Congrats on Bocce winnings! :)

Many times, I think parental notification is a good thing, but not always. There are some parents who would deny their daughters abortions when it would be the best thing for the daughters, and in those cases I wouldn't want the parents to be notified or have to give consent.

There was a news item not long ago about a couple who wanted to force their daughter to have an abortion when she didn't want one, and there too I would not leave it up to the parents. Just basic pro-choice stuff.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 19, 2007 5:14 PM

Doug,

I don't think you or anyone else should say that abortion is the best thing for someone else. No bystander can say abortion is the best thing for that person. That is not about supporting her decision. It is a judgement that in some cases abortion is best. I find that attitude very disturbing and not at all pro choice, just pro abortion.

If your second example was the one I remember of a 19 year old being abducted, as an adult, her parents had zero legal authority over her.

Abortion aside, would you feel comfortable with a surgeon who laughed about lying to you about a medical procedure? Is that informed consent? Is that best practice? Is that a high ethical standard?

Sally said, "The little snippet of his talk doesn't address what doctors lie to their patients about. Telling new parents that their homely baby is beautiful perhaps?"

you may not understand this, Sally, but beauty is on the inside. No matter how a baby may appear on the outside, to many, the baby is still beautiful...it's one of God's creations!!!

Sally,

If you would like to watch the wole thing which is 50 minutes long, Ben Wetmore has a link to it towards the top of the page. I watched it and his arrogance is astounding. But again, he has to be in order to live with what he does. Just bc he's delivered babies still doesn't make up for the fact he's killed who knows how many preborn babies and he's killed and injured girls who have gone to him. He should be in jail, not praised.

On the Medical Ordinance in Aurora:

A) It can't be passed because medical law is a state issue not a city issue.

B) Passing a law like that is downright dangerous to a child's health. Are you aware that people out there exist that do not believe in medical procedures? Kids have died from pnemonia because their parents thought it was negative thoughts in the kid's head. Are you going to give these people authority when a kid needs surgery or he'll DIE and let them say no?

C) I agree there needs to be parental involvement in a child's life. I whole-heartedly agree. Which is why we need to increase the standard of living so that both parents don't have to work all the time to support their families.

On "pro-aborts" being silent on this issue:

A) I'm not pro-abortion. Like I said, I'm don't believe people should have abortions, but I don't believe they should be denied one either.

B) I'm not being "silent," I work. I go to school. I do things with my life. The only time I hang around here is when I'm bored and don't have anything better to do with my time.

Edyt,

A. On the contrary...Home rule
B. Dangerous to a child's health? Don't you think abortion may be just a wee-bit more dangerous than a call to a parent? PARENTAL NOTIFICATION just notifies that parent that a procedure will be done. It is NOT consent. These girls can still have their abortions...it's just that the parents will know about it. (these are CHILDREN under the age of 18, mind you!)
C. AMEN!

Edyt,

If you're concerned about the child's health, I recommend you review some of my posts on this thread. Courts have ordered medical treatment where necessary to save a minor's life.
When I worked ER, we were always authorized to do what was necessary to save the life of a minor. We certainly notified parents, but did not require their consent in life/death situations.

A. ?? What part of "It can't be passed because medical issues are statewide and not citywide" don't you understand? Those aren't my words, that's government legislation for you, honey.
B. It's not an abortion notification law. It's a medical notification law. More dangerous, I'd say. If there weren't people out there who don't believe in medical procedures, I'd be fine and dandy with it. In fact, I think parental notification laws should be in place for abortions. But if a kid breaks an arm and his parents hear about his plan to get it put in a cast and suddenly remove him from the city? Umm... not so cool with it.

This man killed a fifteen year old girl and has a shady record and yet you hold him up as a role model?

15-year-old Tamia Russell died January 8, 2004 after a second trimester abortion at Woman Care Clinic in Lanthrup Village, near Detroit. Taisha Glenn, the sister of Russell's 24-year-old boyfriend, Stacy Glenn, had taken Russell to the abortion facility on January 7 without permission or notifying Russell's mother or guardian. Stacy Glenn, according to Frances Russell, Tamia's mother, is an alleged drug dealer who has not been located since Russell's death. He paid the $2000 for Russell's abortion.
Following vaginal insertion of laminaria, a seaweed used to begin dilation, Russell was sent home, where she confessed to her family that she was pregnant and had begun the abortion procedure. Russell's mother drove her daughter to the abortion facility the next day to finish the abortion, which was performed by Alberto Hodari. Upon her return home, she experienced severe bleeding -- "so much so she soaked an entire mattress," Redden told LifeNews.com. WomanCare told her family that such bleeding was "normal" following an abortion, and not to take her to the hospital. Concerned for Russell, the family called paramedics who rushed her to Sinai-Grace Hospital. Russell died on the way to the Hospital. Steven Brown of the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office told LifeNews.com the cause of death for Russell was listed as, "Uterine infarction with sepsis, due to status post second trimester abortion."

Girl dies after second-trimester abortion; activists seek probe
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?g9114_BC_MI--AbortionDeath&&news&newsflash-michigan

Family of Detroit Girl Who Died From Abortion Speaks Out
http://www.preciouslife.net/show-news.asp?NewsArticle=143

Hodari was also implicated in the death of Chivon Williams in 1996, who died after having a
first-trimester abortion performed
by Hodari. Dr. Miller, director of Citizens for a Pro-life Society, reports that there have been 23 lawsuits in the past 20 years against WomanCare facilities and Alberto Hodari, for abortion injuries including complications resuting on hysterectomies on 19, 22, and 23-year-old women. All were dismissed, with many referring to undisclosed settlements.
http://www.fiegerlaw.com/pdf/2004-vol10_summer.pdf

Many pro-choicers will be quick to dismiss this and the other injuries and death as just an unfortuant incident and cite statistics citing how supposidly safe abortion is to protect the reputation of the abortion provider and abortion rights. But it was a preventable death and to minimize her death would be insulting. Why not just go to her family and tell them how insignificant she was, that she's just a statistic? Why not see her as a human too, a daugher, friend, etc Nothing can console this family's loss or bring back their daughter, so why downplay the loss?
Why is it pro-choicers cry out when a woman died from an illegal abortion and tote her picture and story around, but when negligence and malpractice which results in injury or death during a legal abortion occurs, they just turn a blind eye or minimize the death.

Mods, posted a comment which is in que.

Edyt,
Can you provide proof please of how frequently parental notification laws result in children being kicked out of the home (which is illegal BTW), injured, or killed as a result of the parents being informed of the procedure?

The abortionist mentioned that he had a sister who became sterile as a result of an illegal abortion. He failed to mention that he killed a 15 year old during a legal abortion that he'd performed. They will always find a way to leave out the problems surrounding legalized abortion...Always!

Heather,
In fact the post I wrote which is in que covers this and other injuries and deaths by Hodari.

Edyt,
OK, I'll help you out: Here it is.. (pay special attention to the "home rule part, OK?)
.
RESOLUTION CALLING FOR THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS TO ENACT A PARENTAL NOTIFICATION LAW THAT CAN BE UPHELD IN A COURT OF LAW

WHEREAS, the City of Aurora has a population of more than 25,000 persons and is, therefore, a home rule unit under subsection (1) of Section 6 of Article VII of the Illinois Constitution of 1970; and

WHEREAS, subject to said section, a home rule unit may exercise any power and perform any function pertaining to its government and affairs for the protection of the public health, safety, morals and welfare; and

WHEREAS, the City of Aurora has heard from multitudes of residents that were unaware it is currently legal in this state for their minor children to receive medical treatment without parental notification or consent.

WHEREAS, the State of Illinois enacted a Parental Notification Law that is not currently enforced and is said to be unenforceable in a court of law in spite of the fact over thirty states in the United States have active & enforceable Parental Notification Laws.

WHEREAS, a minor child is already restricted by law from having their ears pierced or to be tattooed, to receive or possess an aspirin in school, or to engage in other activities that they are deemed too immature to participate in; and all these have been enacted by state law.

WHEREAS, the City Council foresees the need to protect the health and safety of our minor children, and to further protect the abilities of families to be primary in their children’s welfare. Furthermore, we notify neighboring municipalities to be concerned about the same and hereby approve this resolution to alert them.

NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the City Council of the City of Aurora, Illinois calls on all Elected Officials of the State of Illinois to act at once to provide the people of this State with an enforceable Parental Notification Law that provides no minor child shall receive any medical treatment without notification of a parent or legal guardian except in the case of emergency and allowing for judicial review only in special cases involving abuse, potential abuse or parent or guardian incapacity.

Also, try telling, "What part of "It can't be passed because medical issues are statewide and not citywide" don't you understand? Those aren't my words, that's government legislation for you, honey."
to MANY states that already have this passed. Please, Edyt, do your homework, go to city council meetings, prepare & listen to speeches, read, read, read...then, come back to me with an intelligent conversation regarion Parental NOTIFICATION!
Thank you! :)

Edyt,

Just how common are situations like that? In over 30 years of nursing practice I have yet to see such a situation. Sure, there will be negligent parents, and parents who will not want a child treated, but no amount of legislation or lack of it will remedy that. If a child has a break he can go to an ER or doctor and be treated. A teacher or neighbor can report, like in any situation of parental negligence. An untreated break can lead to infection and/or deformity. A court order can be obtained if necessary.

Racheal, Welcome back!!! Nice to see you, and thank you.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pare3.htm

Okay, AB,

Let me explain something to you, since you don't seem to get it.

There's a BIG difference between a RESOLUTION and an ORDINANCE.

An ORDINANCE is an enforceable city law which citizens are required to follow. Ordinances can be as simple as constructing parking meters or as complex as zoning areas for development.

A RESOLUTION is essentially a fancy letter asking higher state or federal legislators to do something about a problem the city can't do by itself. Resolutions do not affect anyone. It's simply an expression of opinion signed in by a legislative body.

I do go to City Council meetings, thanks, just not in Aurora, but in Chicago. And the fact is that the ordinance cannot get passed, but the resolution can, and that is the only thing that will even remotely affect state laws.

Edyt,

Please, what do you recommend in the event of the possible complications I mentioned in my previous posts?

Thanks Heather! I'm just back for a couple of days, while I'm home visiting. However, I've got a laptop ordered and on the way and will hopefully have internet at home again soon.

Edyt,
Did you even thoroughly read the page? It mostly appeals from the perspective of parental laws preventing her from obtaining an abortion (and the risks of a later abortion) without actually addressing the question which I asked you, so I'll ask again: how frequently do parental notification laws directly result in children being kicked out of the home (which is illegal BTW), injured, or killed as a result of the parents being informed of the procedure? which is most often the argument played out by abortion rights activists.

I don't know. =) I've seen statistics on stuff like that before, but honestly, I'm all worn out from researching the abortion debate and since I'm not writing a story on it anyway I can't be inclined to research something that's not being put to good use.

Also, I'm trying to work on a CTA thingy, so I'm not just being lazy, but I'm looking up a bunch of other things in the meantime.

You can feel free to look it up though. I mean, since the Internet's invention, information is so much easier to find.

And nevermind the child having an elective procedure (the majority of abortion procedures preformed on teens are not indicated for life-threaning circumstances)
which the parents weren't notified of, but then the parents get a phone call to come to the hospital when the child has complictions as a result of the procedure and are the ones left to deal with the mess.

Rachael,

Welcome back! Are you married now? I'm afraid I lost track.
Any minors who fears abuse because of pregnancy or any other reason can contact a social service agency, talk to a school counselor, or a clergyman. Protection can be provided. I personally know of one case where a clergyman accompanied a minor who feared abuse,to tell her parents. There was no abuse, and they all worked together to deal with the problem. Certainly if there is reason to fear abuse then action of some kind is long overdue.

Edyt,
An ORDINANCE has also been proposed and endorsed.

Mary,

That's the kind of community outreach I think we really need more of.

Not that I have any good ideas, naturally, considering I'm PC. *sigh*

Doug,

Another thing. Not requiring parental consent protects adult male sex offenders who want their crimes covered up, and hopefully have their "girlfriends" put on birth control as well.
One can imagine they would oppose any kind of parental consent as well, don't you think?

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 6:17 PM
.....................................................

Conversely, requiring parental consent lessens the likelihood of sexually molested daughters of molestors an opportunity to report abuse. Now doesn't it?

AB,

I know that. I wrote a story about it. However, the ordinance cannot be passed because medical procedures are a STATE issue and not a CITY issue.

Which is why they pushed for the RESOLUTION because they're basically asking to be exempt from the state law.

Do I really need to explain this again?

Besides, just because an ordinance is endorsed doesn't mean it'll get passed.

Maybe I'm not the one who needs to brush up on my local government knowledge.

Rachael,

You may be referring to the case of Dawn Ravenell, a 14y/o Jamaican immigrant who's parents were called to the hospital. Their daughter was brain dead and on life support, the complication of an abortion her parents did not know she was having.

MK,

Also, wouldn't you have a problem with a doctor who says he/she doesn't feel bad and are not worried about what they do? Why should they feel bad or be worried?

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 6:37 PM
.............................
Because a bunch of you PL zealots constantly insist that they must?

Nope Edyt, you and other pro-choicers have made the claim that the children's lives may become endangered and the child may be injured or killed because of parental notification laws for medical procedures and because you made the claim, therefore you carry the responsibility of providing the proof when another asks for documentation for you claim. So provide proof or retract the statement.

Sally,

Not at all. Any victim of parental molestation can report her abuse to police, a teacher, a neighbor, a social worker, a clergyman, and just about anyone else you can think of.

"Bottom line, I want what is best for the girl, and though I agree with you, there will still be times that the parents knowing and/or deciding will not be best for her."

Imagine, if you will, Doug, your daughter. Thirteen. With Mr. Hodari. Your grandfetus about to be terminated.

Would your valuation permit that?

Remember, she's with Mr. Hodari.

Posted by: carder at November 19, 2007 7:42 PM
.............................
Grand fetus? What's next? Grandsperm? Grandovum?

Edyt,
So, you're saying this CANNOT get passed? If not, why hasn't it been shot down yet, and why would all the people involved get involved with it anyway? I guess you do know much more than I do re: governmental procedures, so I'd really like to get your input:

PETITIONER: THE CITY OF AURORA
AN ORDINANCE to require parental notice for any Medical Procedure to be
performed on a minor; to Medical Doctors to give notice to one parent or guardian at
least 48 hours prior to any procedure; to provide for alternative notification in specified
circumstances and to provide for judicial by-pass in specified circumstances; to provide
exceptions; to provide for penalties; and to provide for related matters.
WHEREAS, the City of Aurora has a population of more than 25,000 persons and
is, therefore, a home rule unit under subsection (a) of Section 6 of Article VII of the
Illinois Constitution of 1970; and
WHEREAS, subject to said Section, a home rule unit may exercise any power and
perform any function pertaining to its government and affairs for the protection of the
public health, safety, morals and welfare; and
WHEREAS, the City Council of the City of Aurora has determined that it is in the
best interest of public health, safety, morals and welfare to require parental notification of
abortion as set forth in this Ordinance; and
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED by the City Council of the City of
Aurora, Illinois, as follows:
Section 1. Short Title.
This Ordinance may be cited as the “Parental Notification of Medical Procedures
Ordinance.”
Section 2. Legislative Purpose and Findings.
(a) The City Council finds that:
(1) Immature minors often lack the ability to make fully informed choices that
take into account both immediate and long-range consequences.
(2) The medical, emotional, and psychological consequences of Medical
Procedures are sometimes serious and can be lasting, particularly when the patient is
immature.
(3) The capacity to decide whether or not a Medical Procedure is required
presupposes capacity for mature judgment .
(4) Parents ordinarily possess information essential to a physician's exercise of
his or her best medical judgment concerning the child.
(5) Parents who are aware that their minor child’s Medical Procedure ensure that
he or she receives adequate medical attention after their procedure.
(6) Parental consultation is usually desirable and in the best interests of the
minor.
(b) The City Council’s purpose in enacting this parental notice law is to further the
important and compelling public interests of:
(1) Protecting minors against their own immaturity.
(2) Fostering family unity and preserving the family as a viable social unit.
(3) Protecting the constitutional rights of parents to rear children who are
members of their household.
(4) In light of the foregoing statements of purposes, allowing for judicial
bypasses of parental notification to be made only in exceptional or rare circumstances.
Section 3. Definitions.
For purposes of this Ordinance:
(a) “Medical Procedure” means any course of action taken by medical or
paramedical personnel intended to achieve a result in the care of a patient.
(b) “Actual notice” means the giving of notice directly, in person or by telephone.
(c) “Constructive notice” means notice by certified mail to the last known address of
the parent or guardian with delivery deemed to have occurred 48 hours after the certified
notice is mailed.
(d) “Emancipated minor” means any person under eighteen years of age who is or has
been married or who has been legally emancipated.
(e) “Incompetent” means any person who has been adjudged a disabled person and has
had a guardian appointed for her under the State Probate Act.
(f) “Medical emergency” means a condition that, on the basis of the physician's goodfaith
clinical judgment, so complicates the medical condition of a patient to necessitate
the immediate action to avert death or for which a delay will create serious risk of
substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.
(g) “Neglect” means the failure of a parent to supply a child with necessary food,
clothing, shelter, or medical care when reasonably able to do so or the failure to protect a
child from conditions or actions that imminently and seriously endanger the child's
physical or mental health when reasonably able to do so.
(h) “Physical abuse” means any physical injury intentionally inflicted by a parent or
legal guardian on a child.
(i) “Physician” means any person licensed to practice medicine in all its branches under
the Illinois Medical Practice Act of 1987.
(j) “First Responder” refers to those individuals who in the early stages of an incident
are responsible for the protection and the preservation of life, property evidence and the
environment, including emergency response providers as defined in section 2 of the
Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6U.S.C.101) as well as emergency management public
health, clinical care, and other skilled support personnel that provide immediate support
services during prevention, response, and recovery operations.
(k) “Good Samaritan” Someone who voluntarily helps someone else who is in distress.
(l) “Sexual abuse” means any sexual conduct or sexual penetration as defined in Section
12-12 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 1961 that is prohibited by the criminal laws of the
State of Illinois and committed against a minor by an adult family member as defined in
the Illinois Criminal Code of 1961.
Section 4. Notice of One Parent Required.
No person shall perform a Medical Procedure upon an unemancipated minor or upon an
incompetent unless that person has given at least 48 hours actual notice to one parent or
the legal guardian. The notice may be given by a referring physician. The person who
performs the Medical Procedure must receive the written statement of the referring
physician certifying that the referring physician has given notice to the parent or guardian
of the unemancipated minor or incompetent who is to receive the Medical Procedure. If
actual notice is not possible after a reasonable effort, the person or his or her agent must
give 48 hours constructive notice.
Section 5. Alternate Notification.
If the minor patient declares in a signed written statement that she is a victim of sexual
abuse, neglect, or physical abuse by either of his or her parents or legal guardian, then the
attending physician shall give the notice required by this Ordinance to a brother or sister
of the minor who is over 21 years of age, or to a stepparent or grandparent specified by
the minor. The physician who intends to perform the Medical Procedure must certify in
the patient's medical record that he or she has received the written declaration of abuse or
neglect. Any physician relying in good faith on a written statement under this Section
shall not be civilly or criminally liable under any provisions of this Ordinance for failure
to give notice.
Section 6. Exceptions.
Notice shall not be required under Section 4 or 5 of this Ordinance if:
(a) The attending physician, First Responder, or a good Samaritan certifies that a medical
emergency exists and there is insufficient time to provide the required notice; or
(b) Notice is waived in writing by the person who is entitled to notice; or
(c) Notice is waived under section 7.
If Notice is not required based on an emergency pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this
Section, then the attending physician shall send Notice in accordance with the terms of
this Ordinance within 24 hours of performing the Medical Procedure.
Section 7. Procedure for Judicial Waiver of Notice.
(a) The requirements and procedures under this Section are available to minors and
incompetent persons whether or not they are residents of this state.
(b) The minor or incompetent person may petition any circuit court for a waiver of the
notice requirement and may participate in proceedings on her own behalf. The petition
shall include a statement that the complainant requires a Medical Procedure and is
unemancipated. The petition shall also include a statement that notice has not been
waived and that the complainant wishes to receive the procedure without giving notice
under this Ordinance. The court may appoint a guardian ad litem for him or her. Any
guardian ad litem appointed under this Ordinance shall act to maintain the confidentiality
of the proceedings.
The circuit court shall advise him or her that they have a right to court-appointed counsel
and shall provide her with counsel upon her request.
(c) Court proceedings under this Section shall be confidential and shall ensure the
anonymity of the minor or incompetent person. All court proceedings under this section
shall be sealed. The minor or incompetent person shall have the right to file his or her
petition in the circuit court using a pseudonym or using solely his or her initials. All
documents related to this petition shall be confidential and shall not be available to the
public. These proceedings shall be given precedence over other pending matters to the
extent necessary to ensure that the court reaches a decision promptly. The court shall rule,
and issue written findings of fact and conclusions of law, within 48 hours of the time that
the petition was filed, except that the 48-hour limitation may be extended at the request of
the minor or incompetent person. If the court fails to rule within the 48-hour period and
an extension was not requested, then the petition shall be deemed to have been granted,
and the notice requirement shall be waived.
(d) If the court finds, by clear and convincing evidence, that the minor is both
sufficiently mature and well-informed to decide whether to have a Medical Procedure,
the court shall issue an order authorizing the minor to consent to the performance or
inducement of a Medical Procedure without the notification of a parent or guardian and
the court shall execute the required forms. If the court does not make the finding
specified in this subparagraph or subparagraph (e) of this section, it shall dismiss the
petition.
(e) If the court finds, by clear and convincing evidence, that there is a pattern of physical,
sexual, or emotional abuse of the complainant by one or both of his or her parents,
guardian, or custodian, or that the notification of a parent or guardian is not in the best
interest of the complainant, the court shall issue an order authorizing the minor to consent
to the performance or inducement of a Medical Procedure without the notification of a
parent or guardian. If the court does not make the finding specified in this subparagraph
or subparagraph (d) of this section, it shall dismiss the petition.
(f) A court that conducts proceedings under this Section shall issue written and specific
factual findings and legal conclusions supporting its decision and shall order that a
confidential record of the evidence and the judge's findings and conclusions be
maintained. At the hearing, the court shall hear evidence relating to the emotional
development, maturity, intellect, and understanding of the minor.
(g) An expedited confidential appeal shall be available, as the Supreme Court provides
by rule, to any minor or incompetent person to whom the circuit court denies a waiver of
notice. An order authorizing a Medical Procedure without notice shall not be subject to
appeal.
Section 9. Penalties.
(a) Any person who intentionally performs a Medical Procedure with knowledge that or
with reckless disregard as to whether the person upon whom the Medical Procedure is to
be performed is an unemancipated minor or an incompetent without providing the
required notice is guilty of a Class A Misdemeanor. “Intentionally” is defined by Section
4-4 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 1961 (720 ILCS 5/4-4). It is an affirmative defense
to prosecution under this section that the minor falsely represented his or her age or
identity to the physician to be at least 18 years of age by displaying an apparently valid
governmental record of identification such that a careful and prudent person under similar
circumstances would have relied on the representation. This affirmative defense does not
apply if the physician is shown to have had independent knowledge of the minor’s actual
age or identity or failed to use due diligence in determining the minor’s age or identity.
In this subsection, “affirmative defense” has the meaning and application assigned by
Section 3-2 of the Illinois Criminal Code of 1961 (720 ILCS 5/3-2).
(b) Failure to provide persons with the notice required under this Ordinance is prima
facie evidence of failure to provide notice and of interference with family relations in
appropriate civil actions. Such prima facie evidence shall not apply to any issue other
than failure to inform the parents or guardian and interference with family relations in
appropriate civil actions. The civil action may be based on a claim that the act was a
result of simple negligence, gross negligence, wantonness, willfulness, intention, or other
legal standard of care. The law of this State shall not be construed to preclude the award
of exemplary damages in any appropriate civil action relevant to violations of this
Ordinance. Nothing in this Ordinance shall be construed to limit the common law rights
of parents.
(c) Any person not authorized to receive notice under this Ordinance who signs a waiver
of notice under subsection (b) of Section 6 is guilty of a Class A Misdemeanor.
(d) Any person who coerces a minor to have a Medical Procedure is guilty of a Class A
Misdemeanor.
Section 10. Construction.
(a) Nothing in this Ordinance shall be construed as creating or recognizing a right to a
Medical Procedure.
Section 11. Severability.
The provisions of this Ordinance are declared to be severable, and if any provision, word,
phrase, or clause of the Ordinance or the application thereof to any person shall be held
invalid, such invalidity shall not affect the validity of the remaining portions of this
Ordinance.

Sally,

Did you hear an so called PL zealots insist Hodari say that he feel bad or worried about what he does?

Sally said, "The little snippet of his talk doesn't address what doctors lie to their patients about. Telling new parents that their homely baby is beautiful perhaps?"

you may not understand this, Sally, but beauty is on the inside. No matter how a baby may appear on the outside, to many, the baby is still beautiful...it's one of God's creations!!!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 19, 2007 8:22 PM
................................................
I've seen some ugly babies Laura and out right lied about it. And honey, God doesn't create babies. Women do. God set it up that way. According to the Bible, God only created two human beings and they were never babies.

Oh please, I've provided information to you people before and no one cares or changes their own opinions. It won't end the argument and you'll just find some counter-evidence elsewhere.

I'd rather not waste my time. The information is out there, you can find it if you're so interested.

Whew its getting late and these keys are sticky.
I wanted to say, did you hear any so called PL zealots insist Hodari say that he feels bad or worried about what he does?

Truly sorry, Edyt...was just curious! :)

Mary,
Yes I am married, for just over a month now. I posted a link to the wedding pictures quite a few posts back. Unfortuantly a large precentage of domestic violence against women occurs because of pregnancy (and if it weren't pregnancy, when would the ticking time bomb explode?) I agreed the statement:
Any minors who fears abuse because of pregnancy or any other reason can contact a social service agency, talk to a school counselor, or a clergyman. Protection can be provided. I personally know of one case where a clergyman accompanied a minor who feared abuse,to tell her parents. There was no abuse, and they all worked together to deal with the problem. Certainly if there is reason to fear abuse then action of some kind is long overdue.

Sally,

If you would like to watch the wole thing which is 50 minutes long, Ben Wetmore has a link to it towards the top of the page. I watched it and his arrogance is astounding. But again, he has to be in order to live with what he does. Just bc he's delivered babies still doesn't make up for the fact he's killed who knows how many preborn babies and he's killed and injured girls who have gone to him. He should be in jail, not praised.

Posted by: Tara at November 19, 2007 9:04 PM
.......................................................

MMMM Ok. I might have time to watch that tomorrow. But please save the preborn baby hysteria for the gullable. I'm quite sure that if the man has actually killed anyone, he will be prosecuted for such. Unless he's an ex football player going by the name OJ of course.

AB,

You didn't need to post the whole ordinance. Like I said before, I wrote a story on it.

It cannot be passed because it violates state legislation. That is HOW IT IS. States alone have the power to dictate medical law. If the state grants Aurora freedom to make it's own choices of the matter, that is STILL a state decision. That's why the resolution was drafted.

I spoke with Rick Lawrence about the law and he is aware that the law probably won't pass, and if it does, it'll be struck down by Illinois courts as a violation of the Illinois constitution. Lawrence's heart is in a good place, but like many aldermen, he believes he has more power than he does.

Right now, all he and supporters of the resolution can do is hope the parental notification act of 1995 is brought back.

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. The City of Aurora does not have the legislative power to make laws regarding medical procedures.

I wish someone would print a transcript of Hodari's speech and post it on this site. It is extremely hard to understand him with his accent.

The first twelve minutes that I heard made me want to puke. The laughter from the audience was repugnant to me, though I wasn't surprised. At least he is aware that the abortion "truths" are gradually coming to light and that more and more people know what goes on in an abortion.

As for these "students" being upset over the attention they received because of this: Go into the HONORABLE areas of Ob/Gyn and don't do abortions, period. It's as simple as that.

Christina,

We really shouldn't be surprised that he's so cavalier about killing unborn children. When people deny killing unborn children is wrong, they have to continue that thought process. Everyday, the abortionists who come out of PP they blare their music as loud as they can. When they come in the morning or afternoon, we can't hear it. But again they have to distract and block out what they do and hear.

On Friday, while I was out there are girl and a guy came out of PP w/ a boy who was around 2. She had just had an abortion, she was crying, pushing the guy away, she wouldn't let him touch her all in front of the 2 year old. When the 2 year old went to be by her, she totally ignored him. She was white as a ghost, and it broke my heart. She was definately not happy, or proud of her decision. She acted like she was pushed into it. The guy however, was smiling and looked quite happy and content. He was acting like nothing had happened, yet she was shattered.

Posted by: Tara at November 19, 2007 6:17 PM
..................................
How do you know that this girl had just had an abortion Tara? Did your crystal ball tell you so? She could have just found out that she wasn't pregnant after all through a PP provided pregnancy test and dissapointed. She could have found out that she has cancer and the man was trying to be positive. You don't really know now do you?

Rachael,

Thank you. Congragulations on your wedding. You're right about the ticking time bomb. If one factor doesn't trigger it, another will.
The most important thing to remember is that there is never any reason or excuse for domestic violence, and it is never the responsibility of victims to appease their abusers by aborting or anything else.

No Edyt, you're just diverting the issue and making excuses as to why you don't have to back up your claims. But anyways, contrary to what you believe, myself and others here do read through the research provided and if we provide counter research isn't that what a debate is all about, dialogue? But no, only the pro-choice view is right and superorly (sp?) moral.

Mike,

I can't understand why the students would be upset. If they're so certain what they're doing is right, who cares what anyone else says or likes.

The most important thing to remember is that there is never any reason or excuse for domestic violence, and it is never the responsibility of victims to appease their abusers by aborting or anything else.

Here, here!

Whew its getting late and these keys are sticky.
I wanted to say, did you hear any so called PL zealots insist Hodari say that he feels bad or worried about what he does?

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 10:49 PM
.............................................

Honey, it's the PL mantra. If a woman is happy with the choice to abort she is in everything from denial to full blown mental illness. The man has been a doc since 1958. Do you really think that he hasn't heard it all?

You people and your stubborn views on life can use some reasoning, before everyone here bites each others heads off, why dont you have a civilized conversation without atempting to humiliate another ones views? I think everyone here can learn a good leason about opinions. Its like religion, noone wants to compromise on anyones views as long as they think that their right in their head. come on people, have some dignity....lets all keep in mind that this is a forumn

From the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine: http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/2/120

"In a recent study of adolescent girls using reproductive health services, Reddy and colleagues12 found that 59% of these girls reported that they would stop using sexual health care services, delay testing or treatment for sexually transmitted infections, or discontinue use of specific sexual health care services if their parents were informed when they seek prescription birth control. Taken together, the body of research with adolescents suggests that withholding assurances of confidentiality in reproductive health care for minors poses threats to individual and public health."

Later on in the study:

"Most parents anticipated some consequences if PNLs were enacted (Table 3). A slight majority of parents (53.4%) expected at least 1 positive consequence, primarily that teenagers would think more before having sex (42.2%) or would be more apt to talk with their parents (33.1%). Only 9.5% expected 3 or 4 positive consequences. Few parents (15.4%) believed teenagers would have less sex if PNLs were enacted, and even fewer believed PNLs would cause teenagers to stop having sex (3.6%). Conversely, almost all parents (96.1%) expected at least 1 negative consequence, and nearly half (47.6%) expected 5 or more negative consequences from enactment of PNLs. Three quarters (75.5%) of parents thought PNLs would result in teenagers using birth control methods that did not require a clinic visit (such as condoms and foam), and two thirds (67.3%) expected teenagers would have more unprotected sex if PNLs were enacted. Most parents also anticipated more teen pregnancies (58.5%) and sexually transmitted infections (58.2%) if PNLs were enacted."

And that's just for birth control. Give me a couple more minutes and I'll let you know about the abortion issue.

Sally,

If he's so happy with his line of work what would he care what anyone says or feel any need to justify himself by saying he doesn't feel bad about his profession? He was preaching to the choir wasn't he?
I love what I do for a living, I don't make a point to tell people I don't feel bad about my profession. Why would I?

Sally,

Not at all. Any victim of parental molestation can report her abuse to police, a teacher, a neighbor, a social worker, a clergyman, and just about anyone else you can think of.

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 10:43 PM
...............................................

You don't know much about abuse do you. You are a nurse?

Actually, I lied. My boyfriend just got home so I'm going to hang out with him. But the American Medical Association, American Public Health Association, American Academy of Family Physicians, and the American Medical Women’s Association are all opposed to parental notification, so if you look up those organizations I'm sure you'll find the statistics you're looking for. Otherwise, when a get a free moment tomorrow I'll post it. Promise.

This isn't a cop out, he really did get home. =)

Sally,

I know plenty thank you, more than I care to in fact.

Edyt,
Thank you for your response. I do greatly appreciate it...I'll put my party hat away for a while...

Mary,
Yes I am married, for just over a month now. I posted a link to the wedding pictures quite a few posts back. Unfortuantly a large precentage of domestic violence against women occurs because of pregnancy (and if it weren't pregnancy, when would the ticking time bomb explode?) I agreed the statement:
Any minors who fears abuse because of pregnancy or any other reason can contact a social service agency, talk to a school counselor, or a clergyman. Protection can be provided. I personally know of one case where a clergyman accompanied a minor who feared abuse,to tell her parents. There was no abuse, and they all worked together to deal with the problem. Certainly if there is reason to fear abuse then action of some kind is long overdue.

Posted by: Rachael at November 19, 2007 10:53 PM
..................................

It isn't the pregnancy that causes the abuse. It is the feeling of empowerment abusive men feel when a woman is most physically vulnerable. Nothing can be done simply because a woman fears violence. Evidence of violence must be judged 'unasked' for by the legal system. By then, of course, anyone wishing to assist you must consider themselves a potential future victim.
If the woman is in fact the child of the abuser, anyone can allege abuse but real help for the child is most likely to be a day late and a dollar short.
But who cares about all that! Unborn unbabies are being muuuuurdered!

AB,

You didn't need to post the whole ordinance. Like I said before, I wrote a story on it.

It cannot be passed because it violates state legislation. That is HOW IT IS. States alone have the power to dictate medical law. If the state grants Aurora freedom to make it's own choices of the matter, that is STILL a state decision. That's why the resolution was drafted.

I spoke with Rick Lawrence about the law and he is aware that the law probably won't pass, and if it does, it'll be struck down by Illinois courts as a violation of the Illinois constitution. Lawrence's heart is in a good place, but like many aldermen, he believes he has more power than he does.

Right now, all he and supporters of the resolution can do is hope the parental notification act of 1995 is brought back.

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. The City of Aurora does not have the legislative power to make laws regarding medical procedures.

Posted by: Edyt at November 19, 2007 10:54 PM
....................................

By the rivers gently flowing
Illinois, Illinois
Don't know why that popped into my head or why I'm posting it.
Yes I do! Hey Jill. Know the state song?

Sally,

If he's so happy with his line of work what would he care what anyone says or feel any need to justify himself by saying he doesn't feel bad about his profession? He was preaching to the choir wasn't he?
I love what I do for a living, I don't make a point to tell people I don't feel bad about my profession. Why would I?

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 11:09 PM
.......................................

Well there's your problem Mary. You mistake professionals speaking about what they do to preachers pushing an agenda. You obviously have never been invited to speak about your profession to any audience above the third grade.

Sally,

I know plenty thank you, more than I care to in fact.

Posted by: Mary at November 19, 2007 11:13 PM
................................
I'm a DV survivor and recovering from PTSD. Your posts do not represent a person with knowledge consisting of more than basic PL references to abuse.

It isn't the pregnancy that causes the abuse. It is the feeling of empowerment abusive men feel when a woman is most physically vulnerable.

Duh, you didn't think I know that? That was my point...exactly! It's about having power and control of her and expressing agression against her.

Nothing can be done simply because a woman fears violence. Evidence of violence must be judged 'unasked' for by the legal system. By then, of course, anyone wishing to assist you must consider themselves a potential future victim.

There are usually warning signs long before the abuser escalates to violence, usually verbal abuse, controlling, changes in personality/habits/routine of the victim, etc. Signs friends, family members, educators, law enforcement personel, and medical professionals should be all be aware of. So do we sit by and do nothing until there is evidence and she is battered and bruised, ends up in critical condition at the hospital or worse? Do we sit by and do nothing and empower these men by giving in to their fear and keeping silent? Why not become an advocate and provide safe haven for the woman and her children, provide emotional support, and help her navigate the legal system? I realize individuals have reason to fear for their own safety in trying to assist a victim, however there's power in numbers and strength in openness and awareness of abuse.

If the woman is in fact the child of the abuser, anyone can allege abuse but real help for the child is most likely to be a day late and a dollar short.

Unfortuantly this is all too true, which is why earlier intervention is important. However, you're also forgetting that often times older male partners are the one perpretrating the abuse and by excluding parental or family involvement, you may be enabling the abuse to be hidden. And on the same line of thinking as earlier, if the partner or abuser is the one to take her to the abortion clinic and picking her up, contrary to popular belief, do you think she's likely to tell the staff she's being coercered into an abortion or being abused? Again, this is why there needs to be more thorough of counseling before the abortion, not just a "do you want to carry to term or end this pregnancy?" and education on the warning signs to look for.

But who cares about all that! Unborn unbabies are being muuuuurdered!

We do! So stop making straw man arguments!

After all the buildup about the monster Hodari, I am a bit disappointed that all I see is a nice man who enjoys his profession, and is happy to talk about it to a receptive audience, some of whom are considering following in his footsteps.

Ray, how nice was what he did to Tamia Russell? I guess we can overlook a dead teenager since the guy who killed her is so charming.

Any death is tragic and unfortunate, but second trimester abortions are inherently riskier. I have to wonder: how many more women would be dead or scarred if all those procedures had been performed by less skilled practitioners? And, how many of them could have had less risky first trimester procedures, if you antis weren't out there trying to make abortions harder to get?

Any death is tragic and unfortunate, but second trimester abortions are inherently riskier.

What are you saying, her death was an acceptable risk? Really campassionate!

I have to wonder: how many more women would be dead or scarred if all those procedures had been performed by less skilled practitioners?

Just visit Christina's blog and you'll find numerous documentations of injuries and deaths of women caused by negligent, unskilled, and uncaring abortion providers both pre and post Roe.

And, how many of them could have had less risky first trimester procedures, if you antis weren't out there trying to make abortions harder to get?

Ray, maybe you should spend a little more time speaking to women in the Silent No More movement and as well as the family members of women who've died from so-called "safe and legal" abortions and see where we're coming from. Also, try to be a little more open-minded on our views of the unborn. Also, there are a number of reasons for having a later-term abortion, including late finding out about the pregnancy, changed mind and decided not to carry to term, known of pregnancy but waited to make decision, poor prenatal diagnosis, etc. Try not so hard to stereotype.

Sally, I guess Tamia Russell and Chivon Williams don't count as "anybody" in your book.

Ray, Tamia was so far advanced in her pregnancy that one abortion clinic her abuser's sister took her to send her home with prenatal vitamins!

But then, she died in an abortion, a nice safe legal abortion, and to the aboriton lobby and its toadies that makes her a non-entity. Just some flukey thing that we needn't bother ourselves about.

I have to wonder: how many more women would be dead or scarred if all those procedures had been performed by less skilled practitioners?

I have to wonder: how many fewer women would be dead of scarred if all those procedures had been illegal and they chose life instead?

Mary: Fine, so what happens if she develops complications? Assuming of course she knows she's developing complications.

So then she needs medical treatment. Her parents knowing she had an abortion is no guarantee of that. You can always say, "What if...?" What if the parents are Christian Scientists?
......

Another thing. Not requiring parental consent protects adult male sex offenders who want their crimes covered up, and hopefully have their "girlfriends" put on birth control as well. One can imagine they would oppose any kind of parental consent as well, don't you think?

The obvious point is that the father or parents could be the abusers themselves. Also, as above, even outside of that the parents knowing won't necessarily bring the abuser to justice.

Doug

In fact, they were pretty much tight-lipped a few months back when Jill posted the 20th anniversay of the PBS Documentary "Abortion Clinic".

Carder, I think there were plenty of comments. I'd like to hear what those two women have to say today.

Doug

Carder: Imagine, if you will, Doug, your daughter. Thirteen. With Mr. Hodari. Your grandfetus about to be terminated. Would your valuation permit that? Remember, she's with Mr. Hodari.

Yes indeed, if it was the best thing for her, and at 13 I'm guessing it would be.

Doug

With Mr. Hodari???

You must have great confidence in his skills.

I, too, would like to hear what those two girls (now women in their forties) would have to say about that moment twenty years ago.

In addition, I'd like to hear the women who were featured with Dr. I-can't-remember-the-spelling who were offered shelter, prenatal care, and support.

As far as pro-choice tight lips, yes, the comments were there, but as Tim noticed, it wasn't the immediate blasting that we're used to. PL went on for awhile until PC piped up later on down the thread. And I believe you were one of the first to post on behalf of your valuation.

With Mr. Hodari???
You must have great confidence in his skills.

Amazing how a doctor who plainly admits he lies to his patients without a care, is adored by the pro-choice crowd. To see who they admire, despite the obvious evidence that this man is a fraud and a liar, not to mention very careless with women's lives, is quite telling.

Yes indeed, if it was the best thing for her, and at 13 I'm guessing it would be.

If your 13 year old became pregnant and wanted to keep her baby, would you recommend that she have the abortion because you feel it would be the best thing for her at that age?

Sally 11:22PM

I was raised in an abusive home so I know this subject only too well. The difference between my mother's situation 50 years ago and an abused woman's situation now is staggering, and long overdue. Domestic violence shelters exist to assist women and provide safetly, both on an emergency and longer term basis. We have one in our community and people actively speak out and involve themselves against this crime. The police, who 50 years ago told my mother "well lady, its his house" are now required to haul someone off to jail to provide at least a temporary halt to hostilities.

All too often where children are concerned the social service and court system has failed miserably and continues to do so, as we hear time and again. Abortion was supposed to solve the problem of child abuse, remember Sally?

Sally, 11:36

I was using an expression which only means he was speaking to people who agree with him, an expression older than me, and that's old. I was not comparing someone discussing his profession to a preacher pushing an agenda.
As a matter of fact I've spoken about my profession to audiences considerably older than the third grade
Let me tell you something about making assumptions Sally, its a sure fire way of making one look very foolish.

Sally 11:43PM

I'm very sorry to hear of your abusive history but as you can see I had one too. It started before I was born when my father pushed my mother down the landing steps when she was 5 months pregnant with me. Again Sally, avoid assumptions. I'm only too well aware that there are no simplistic answers. I've watched in frustration and bewiderment as women have returned to an abusive man because they "love him so much". My brother, a former police officer, as well as other police officers, have told me of being attacked by the very woman they were trying to help.
Its obvious this issue is very complex psychologically as well.
We can only do our best and try to help any way possible.

Rachael,

Excellent posts!

Ray, 12:45am

The same could be said about aging Mafia dons talking to young hoods.

Sally,
What does DV stand for?

And I'm sorry to hear about the abuse you endured. You, too, Mary. Too heartbreaking for words.

Doug, 6:59am

So then she needs treatment. That's the problem Doug, does she know she needs treatment and do her parents realize how seriously ill she may be?
To get treatment she will need their consent. I worked ER Doug and we never gave two hoots in hades what the family relationship was, parents or legal guardians were called. I work OR now, minors are not touched, unless its a life threatening emergency, without the full knowledge and consent of a parent or legal guardian.
Minors are discharged in the care of a parent or legal guardian with written and signed instructions of symptoms the minor should be observed for and follow up care.
I suppose one could just as easily make the argument, as you do concerning abortion, that this is no guarantee that parents will get necessary medical attention, so I suppose we shouldn't even bother, right?

Doug,

The last thing the abuser wants is to be found out. For the most part these dirtballs are not brought to justice(I personally think they should be strung up upsidedown, and not by their feet) and lack of parental consent laws only makes covering their crimes, and continuing their abuse of minors, a lot easier.
Yes, a parent may be an abuser. Like any other predator legal abortion will only cover his crime an enable him to continue his abuse. I don't see where parental consent laws would have any effect on a situation like this. As long as the clinic isn't asking any questions, nothing will be done. Until the victim or someone reports this despicable situation, it will continue, and others likely will be victimized.
Minor victims have been encouraged to seek help from teachers, police, etc. but will likely be too traumatized or intimidated to do so.

Carder,

DV must be domestic violence. Thank you for your kind words.

I'm don't believe people should have abortions,

Why not, Edyt?

If your 13 year old became pregnant and wanted to keep her baby, would you recommend that she have the abortion because you feel it would be the best thing for her at that age?

Bethany, it'd be on the basis of the individual girl, but could be, yes, since that's just so young. Young enough and I'm not going to be pro-choice, there. 13 is a good question because I'm not sure. 15 or higher and I'd generally leave it up to her. 11 or younger and I'd almost surely be against continuing a pregnancy.

Doug

Mary, I'm not saying we should not care, but the "seriously ill" after havinng an abortion is going to be a rare thing, and thus should we prevent all such girls (who would be subject to parental consent) from having abortions? I say heck no. If a person needs medical treatment then I'm all for it, and I hope the girl's parents see the deal and consent to it, regardless of what has gone before.

Most of the time I think parental notification (more than consent) will be a good thing, but I would want there to be a mechanism for the times when it's not.

As far as legal abortion "enabling the crimes of abusers," you are taking one possible and often coincidental, if anything, eventuality and attempting to condemn all such legal abortions, and that simply does not make sense. If that would be "logic," then let's extend it - to be the most sure of "no abuse," then take away all girls, even from their parents, and lock them up to keep them safe.

Doug

Doug,

The "seriously ill" after outpatient surgery is fairly rare too. So I suppose we don't have to concern ourselves right? Its just those "rare" situations that can have very deadly consequences so we take every precaution against them. We don't assume they won't happen. Just as you don't assume an accident can't happen when you drive your car. Also Doug, I have seen these "rare" post abortion complications visiting the ER and OR. I gave the example of "Missy" in a previous post.
I'm glad you're all for getting medical treatment Doug but you can't escape the fact that parents will have to be notified and give consent. This in itself may scare the girl away from needed medical treatment, assuming of course she realizes she needs it, not something "Missy" did.

Tell me Doug, are there times you think it best that parents not be notified when a child is doing poorly in school or is in trouble with the law?

Like it or not Doug, abortion enables abusers to cover their crimes. Lack of parental consent only better enables them. I personally know one young woman, age 15 who's stepfather impregnated her. The abortion clinic asked no questions and parental consent wasn't needed so no one contacted her mother. The slime couldn't even wait to get her home afterward, he began molesting her in the car.
I understand there's also a lawsuit against PP concerning a 13y/o girl and her 21y/o soccer coach. Her parents were not notified nor was anyone suspicious of her "big brother" and an abortion was performed. Apparently the child has been deeply traumatized and her parents, who were not considered worthy to be involved in the decision, must now handle the consequences.

Doug,

I'm certain feminists never anticipated sex selection abortions either, and the selective disposal of mostly female fetuses when they struggled so hard for abortion on demand and for any reason. I'm sure they never intended legal abortion to protect sex offenders.
There's an old saying,

Be very careful of what you wish for, you just might get it.

Good Morning Sally,

You obviously have never spent anytime at an abortion mill. First she was there for hours, and she was wearing pajamas. Girls who are there to get contraception are in and out and they don't wear pajamas. You didn't see the her. There were 5 of us who did. These girls come out from having abortions, sick, holding their stomaches, crying, white as sheets, hiding their faces. And their boyfriends are happy. And time and time again, I've seen arguments about them not wanting to do it, yet their partners tell them its for the best. So don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

Have you worked with post abortive women? I think not! You and PCer's want to deny these things bc then you don't have to think about the consequences. You all can continue to deny the humanity of the preborn. This allows you to keep the myth that abortion is good. But science and technology continues to prove what we already know, preborn babies are human beings.

As for my hysteria, again your wrong. It's not hysteria to want to protect the most vaulnerable. I feel the same way about euthenasia. We don't have the right to kill off those who we deem unfit or burdensome. And ultimately, whether you want to accept it or not, we will all be held accountable for this before God.

As I've posted before the founding mothers of feminism were completely against abortion. They knew abortion was a man's way of playing loose without having to be responsible, and made the woman do the dirty work.

Tara,

How right you are about our feminist foremothers. These women struggled long and hard for social justice.
I believe it was Elizabeth Cady Stanton who referred to abortion as
"male enforced degradation of women" and "murder".
Its been said that firebrand, Susan B. Anthony would have personally led the protests at abortion clinics.

Mary,

So true. Yet colleges and universties leave this part of feminism out. Abortion really did split the feminist movement.

Here is one of my favortie quotes from Mattie Brinkerhoff:

"When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society - so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged."
The Revolution, 4(9):138-9 September 2, 1869

We really need to re-educate our kids.

The "seriously ill" after outpatient surgery is fairly rare too. So I suppose we don't have to concern ourselves right?

Of course not, Mary. The point is that the exception is in no way necessarily a good reason to ban all cases of a thing.

Doug

Mary,

So true. Yet colleges and universties leave this part of feminism out. Abortion really did split the feminist movement.

Here is one of my favortie quotes from Mattie Brinkerhoff:

"When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society - so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged."
The Revolution, 4(9):138-9 September 2, 1869

We really need to re-educate our kids.

Sorry - not sure why my comments posted twice.

I believe it was Elizabeth Cady Stanton who referred to abortion as "male enforced degradation of women" and "murder".

I can understand women wanting women's rights, in general, while still being pro-life. I would also say that if Elizabeth was here and now she would not be against abortion in any such way.
......

Its been said that firebrand, Susan B. Anthony would have personally led the protests at abortion clinics.

It's been said that pigs can fly. I think those two fine women were more complex than you think, and that they would not be on "your side."

Doug

Doug,

You're saying I'm correct when I say we need to take precautions against the "rare" event of serious illness or complications after out patient surgery, but we'll make exceptions where abortion is concerned. An exception can be fatal Doug. Take my word for it, abortion complications aren't as rare as you'd like to believe.
What happens when a 15y/o girl develops unusual bleeding and/or a low grade fever a few days, or weeks, after her abortion and downplays or ignores her symptoms out of fear, ignorance, or the knowledge her parents must be informed if she seeks medical help. I gave the example of "Missy" to show you that this is not a far fetched scenario. Oh, and mom and dad just figure she has a "bug". Lots of them going around. Actually Doug, she's developing an infection that could be very deadly.

Let's not forget the cases of Edrica Goode, Holly Patterson, or Rasheedah Dinkins. 2 dead, one maimed/sterile.

Doug,

If you read their writings, you will find that they were really against abortion.

Just bc they were complex (aren't all women?:))That doesn't change the fact that they viewed abortion as wrong and was another way that men controlled women. I now it's hard to believe, but it is not natural for a woman to kill her preborn babies. We are not created that way.

Had Holly Patterson or Edrica Goode not kept their abortions a secret from their friends/family, perhaps they could have recieved medical attention that could have saved their lives.

Doug,

Did you conduct a seance with Elizabeth and Susan? Elizabeth's words seemed pretty straight forward to me. These women also struggled for racial equality, to protect women from abuse, and to end child labor exploitation. No doubt if these women were alive today, they would oppose the Civil Rights Act and child labor laws, and would certainly object to battered women's shelters.
You're making about as much sense Doug.

Doug, the connection between flying pigs and Susan B. Anthony is....what?

It's interesting that someone desperate took the one moderately controversial thing that Dr. Hodari had said during his talk and broadcasted it.

Doug, a quote from SBA writings on abortion..

"Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"

I'm gonna have to say that yes, she would be opposed to abortion.

And one from ECS on abortion...

"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library

Should I go on? There are plenty to choose from.

It's interesting that someone desperate took the one moderately controversial thing that Dr. Hodari had said during his talk and broadcasted it.

Posted by: Logical at November 20, 2007 12:11 PM

Moderately controversial? You are daft.

It's interesting that someone desperate took the one moderately controversial thing that Dr. Hodari had said during his talk and broadcasted it.

Posted by: Logical at November 20, 2007 12:11 PM

Moderately controversial? You are daft.
--------------

True. My niece tells me Dr. Hodari wore a bulletproof vest during his speech in order to protect himself from you idiot "do-righters."

Logical, he had to wear it, because he's the idiot!

Logical, he had to wear it, because he's the idiot!
Posted by: heather at November 20, 2007 12:26 PM
------------
Yes, yes, and the pro-choicers that have been assassinated over the years are also idiots. Nice to hear from you again, Heather.

*winks* Nice to hear form you too "doctor."

Are you flirting with me?

No thanks.

Logical, it's just that we both know that you were pretending to be a doctor.

Bethany, it'd be on the basis of the individual girl, but could be, yes, since that's just so young. Young enough and I'm not going to be pro-choice, there. 13 is a good question because I'm not sure. 15 or higher and I'd generally leave it up to her. 11 or younger and I'd almost surely be against continuing a pregnancy.

Doug, how is that being for "less suffering" if you would allow your 13 year old to suffer, knowing that a child she wanted was forced out of existence by you, her own father? That is going against her will, her desire, her love, etc. That would be traumatic for her, especially at the age of 13, believe me I know...that is the time when you REALLY have high emotions....Your daughter likely would resent you for decades after the fact, perhaps for the rest of her life, for having made that decision for her.

How can you call yourself pro-choice and not pro-abortion when you don't want parental notification for girls that are 13, but if your own daughter were 13, you would make the choice for her, to make her have an abortion?

Isn't that a little contradictory? You would want to be involved then? So why shouldn't other parents be given that right?

And you have already admitted that there are at least 2 situations in which you are not "pro-choice". After viability, and if you were the parent of a pregnant 13 year old. Isn't it about time to stop referring to yourself as pro-choice and start referring to yourself as "pro-what Doug wants"?

Bethany, an excellent point!

I believe it was Elizabeth Cady Stanton who referred to abortion as "male enforced degradation of women" and "murder".

Doug replied:

I can understand women wanting women's rights, in general, while still being pro-life. I would also say that if Elizabeth was here and now she would not be against abortion in any such way.

.....
Its been said that firebrand, Susan B. Anthony would have personally led the protests at abortion clinics.

Doug replied:

It's been said that pigs can fly. I think those two fine women were more complex than you think, and that they would not be on "your side."
Doug

From RightGrrl.com:
http://www.rightgrrl.com/wquotes.html

Susan B. Anthony-In her publication The Revolution, wrote:"Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"

"All the articles on this subject that I have read have been from men. They denounce women as alone guilty, and never include man in any plans for the remedy." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869

Abortion was referred to as "child murder." The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869

Elizabeth Cady Stanton
"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library

"There must be a remedy even for such a crying evil as this. But where shall it be found, at least here begin, if not in the complete enfranchisement and elevation of women?" The Revolution, 1(10):146-7 March 12, 1868

She classified abortion as a form of "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

*************

More from "The Revolution" by Susan Anthony:

"We want prevention, not merely punishment. We must reach the root of the evil...It is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed."
The Revolution, 4(1):4 July 8, 1869

*******

Doug, I'd say it's pretty bold for you to say these women would support abortion in any fashion, under any circumstances. I'd like to see some written words by them implying that they wouldn't have a problem with it under any set of conditions.

Logical, it's just that we both know that you were pretending to be a doctor.
Posted by: heather at November 20, 2007 12:42 PM
---
That is cute. I'm a practicing physician in Troy, Michigan. But I truly enjoy that you pretend to know things.

That is cute. I'm a practicing physician in Troy, Michigan. But I truly enjoy that you pretend to know things.

Posted by: Logical at November 20, 2007 1:20 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

She also pretends to be a nurse.

Oops, Kristen, sorry...I didn't notice you had already posted that quote by Susan B Anthony. But I guess it can't hurt for Doug to hear it twice. :)

Laura, look it up! I am a nurse! Look it up animal beater!!!

That is cute. I'm a practicing physician in Troy, Michigan. But I truly enjoy that you pretend to know things.

Posted by: Logical at November 20, 2007 1:20 PM*************************** You need more practice.

Incredible. Heather may be a nurse, but she definitely endows the mental capacity of an eight year old.

You're right Bethany, it can't hurt Doug to hear it twice but I don't really think he's hearing it.

And you're correct on another note. He's very pro-what Doug wants...