There are plenty of other forms of punishment other than spanking.

And how do you juxtapose that position with your pro-abortion position?

I saw this on the news today!

Not gonna lie, I think spanking kids is fine. Not beating them, by any means, but man, my dad used to wail on me and my brother with the belt. I think it builds character. Schools shouldn't be able to do it, I think it's only up to the parents. If they choose to spank them, fine. If not, fine. Discipline can be exercised in plenty of ways, and spanking is a viable form of that. Just don't go overboard. My dad never hit us out of anger- that's where the difference is.

We do live in one very confused society. The message is twisted. Don't abuse your child [that's a good thing] but you can kill your child. @@

hello there Jill, Erin, and JM.

*waves cheerfully*

Hello!

I made a garlic shrimp pasta for dinner tonight, it was sooo good. Ever notice how a really good meal can put you in a great mood?

Jill,
"How do YOU juxtapose YOUR position with your ANTI-CHOICE position?

Its not okay for a women to choose weather or not to carry to term, but it is okay for her to hit her child...?

I wrote a paper on this topic about five years ago. It is psychologically damaging to hit a child. The child gets confused and doesn't understand why a figure that is suppose to be loving and caring is hurting them. When there are other forms of punishment that are just as effective, why not use those instead?

I got chicken cordon blue at the store today. But I am going to wait and eat it this weekend. I got a chicken breast stuffed with wild rice for Dan. I bet thats tasty too, except i don't really like rice. hehe

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm....yes.

My confused MA senators in action. You can kill an unborn child,but you can't spank a born child. I am against spanking,but I am nervous that this law will allow MA state agencies to run amuck even more than they already do.

I, like Erin, was beat with a belt by my dad when I was young. I never remember feeling psychologically damaged...I just got really mad at him, but found myself respecting him more for that. Not out of fear...just something I can't put into words.

I believe that since the "time-out" movement, children have become quite bratty, especially in grocery stores & malls. They know you can't give them a "time-out" there! But, if you spanked them, you can do that anywhere & they know it!

Love the picture, Jill!!! I wish my dad used his hand..lucky kid!

I think Erin had it right. A spanking is not only okay, it's sometimes the difference between getting hit by a car and staying out of the street.

But it must not be done when the parent is angry. If it's used as a teaching tool, it has merit. And, admit it, it's effective.

Though I think I could could count on both hands how many times I've spanked all of my kids together.

I read a book by Betty Smith when I was a girl and I still remember the scene where the main character was visiting her cousins. They got up to some shennanigans and their mother lined them all up in a row. Each little girl (I think there were 5 of them) was named after a flower. Lily, Rose, Violet...and the mom called them her little bouquet. Then she went down the line one by one and spanked them. Then she went back up and down the line and kissed them. Then she sent them out to play.

I too was raised with the occasional "belt" and I remember when my oldest were like 2 and 3. They were messin' around and I told them if they didn't stop I was going to get the belt. They didn't stop, and I knew that I had to follow through on my threat. But we didn't own any belts. So I got the one from my robe and gave them a really good thrashing with a terry cloth "tie"...kind of like hittin' 'em with a limp noodle! Never threatened the "belt" again.

The problem is that a lot of parents don't know how to discipline properly(I'm not a parent, but I've read my share of psychology on the issue, dealt with kids babysitting and in the restaurant). Spanking isn't psychologically damaging in the RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. My dad always TOLD my brother and I exactly the behavior that we had done to warrant the spanking, and told us that he wasn't doing it to hurt us but to teach us. A time out can work the same way, but often parents have a harder time dealing with children under prolonged conditions like that. Give the kid a spanking, 5 minutes later they're OK again. Dealing with a kid whining about time out for a half an hour can get really frustrating. Either application can work, but again, it's about how it's exercised.

Ooo, I used to get spanked all the time. I was a jerk of a little kid. My mom would try to discipline me, she couldn't bring herself to use the belt, so she'd use her hand, I'd stick my tongue out and say, "That didn't hurt!" Then when dad got home, MAN did I get it. This is half of why I am not looking forward to having little kids- I was such a brat. My mom claims I was just 'outgoing', but jeez. How obnoxious. I also used to take off my shoes at every opportunity and throw them. I threw them into the rails at the subway once. And into a fountain at the mall.

My parents preferred slapping faces to spanking...though my dad would often get a few good cracks before I got my sorry butt to my room to hide and lock the door.

My mom was a big fan of the "pinching cheeks till you can bite them with your own molars" followed by multiple face slaps.

They didn't "psychologically damage" me. They just pissed me off to no end.

There is also other things other than "time outs" Theres positive reinforcement. Giving the child something positive for positive behavior. If the child normally throw a tantrum in the store they you say, "if you don't throw a tantrum today, then mommy will buy you a treat" or mommy will allow the child to do something special that they don't normally get to do. Theres negative reinforcement, take away toys or privileges. Sure spanking works, but so do other things.

AB Laura, you respected your Dad for beating you with a belt.. wow... sign me up!

JM said "AB Laura, you respected your Dad for beating you with a belt.. wow... sign me up!"

LOL! But only if you tell me it's going to hurt you more than it will me, first!!!

Good grief! One day you are lamenting child abuse and the next you are supporting it. Physical violence is abuse. Just as verbal violence is abuse.
Abortion is abuse you say? Well then what is being born? Getting your head and body all squished through the birth canal. Sound like fun? Some fetii die in the process.
I say that women that give birth are committing assault and battery. Sometimes murder just by giving birth.
Just using your own logic here.

Sally, and abortion is murder. Don't forget it.

Sally,
What about a c-section? Is that abuse, too?

I, like Erin, was beat with a belt by my dad when I was young. I never remember feeling psychologically damaged...I just got really mad at him, but found myself respecting him more for that. Not out of fear...just something I can't put into words.

I believe that since the "time-out" movement, children have become quite bratty, especially in grocery stores & malls. They know you can't give them a "time-out" there! But, if you spanked them, you can do that anywhere & they know it!

Love the picture, Jill!!! I wish my dad used his hand..lucky kid!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 28, 2007 6:52 PM
...............................

That sounds a little kinky Laura. The picture could be quite a turn on for a pedophile into this particular behavior.

"Sally, and abortion is murder. Don't forget it."

*eye roll*

Anyone else tired of the invalid argument some anti-choicers use?

Sally said, "That sounds a little kinky Laura. The picture could be quite a turn on for a pedophile into this particular behavior."

And who's thought was it, Sally? What are you saying?

Abortion is murder, JM.

Abortion is NOT murder, AB Laura.

Is too, JM

Abortion-
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

http://www.answers.com/abortion&r=67

Murder-
To kill (another human) unlawfully.

http://www.answers.com/topic/murder

Last I checked abortion was not illegal... and last I checked a fetus was not human.

Abortion is premeditated murder.

hahahaha
"premeditated murder" i just told you it wasn't murder at all.

JM, you know I like you, but I disagree.

heather,
you know i like you too. Sorry if I'm a little off this evening. Life's a little stressful right now.

@JM: *sigh*

Fetuses are human. They are biologically human and I'm sorry to say it makes you look kinda silly to say otherwise. I mean really, what are women pregnant with? Fish embryos? Alien embryos (a la X-Files)?

JM,
Was that definition of murder concocted by man or by God?

@AB Laura: Well the supposed definitions as stated by "God" are invented by man as well...man's interpretation of God's alleged word, as the bible was written by man and was likely corrupted in the process.

Not sure why anybody puts stock into holy books as they are written by man in an attempt to understand something that is completely beyond human comprehension.

JM,
Encarta Dictionary says:
abortion: an operation or other intervention to end a pregnancy by removing an embryo or fetus from the womb.

the third definition...
an offensive term for something so badly done or made that it is a complete failure.

Wow..that third one can be taken two different ways. From a pro-life & a pro-choice side. Weird, huh?

"an offensive term for something so badly done or made that it is a complete failure."

I think an "abortion" would define the movies "Full Frontal" and "Chumscrubber" really well, as those are the only two movies I never finished. :-3

AB Laura,
what difference does it make? For one thing a god argument is invalid because not everyone believes in god. Passing a law because "god disagrees" is ridiculous.

Rae,
I apologize, yes a women is pregnant with a human embroyo. But the fetus can not live outside the womens body until about the about 25-30 weeks.

Anon,
The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God. Yes, men physically wrote it, but the Spirit of God led them to do so.
Proof? The Nation of Israel.

LOL, Rae!

"The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God. Yes, men physically wrote it, but the Spirit of God led them to do so.
Proof? The Nation of Israel."

How can you be sure that the devil didn't "inspire" men to write what they call the bible? My adult belongs to some type of religion, i wish i could remember what, where she believes that.

The Nation of Israel is not proof to there being a God. It is proof that after WWII all the countries felt really, really bad for not paying attention to the Holocaust sooner and they wanted a way to get rid of the Jews anyway without killing them.

Umm... I would just like to throw in a little comment à propos to the meal thing.

I had Lebanese food for dinner tonight. Oh. My. God.

SO good.

"I apologize, yes a women is pregnant with a human embroyo. But the fetus can not live outside the womens body until about the about 25-30 weeks."

@JM: Whether it can live outside the woman's body is irrelevant. It's still human. It has human DNA. Sure it has a "parasitic-like" relationship with the mother, but that does not make a fetus any less human.

@Leah: You know what else is awesome about Lebanon? They have really, really cute guys there. :-3

And Jamie Farr...CORPORAL KLINGER FOREVER! :D

JM said,
"How can you be sure that the devil didn't "inspire" men to write what they call the bible? My adult belongs to some type of religion, i wish i could remember what, where she believes that."

Because the devil is hate..no love...the Bible is about God's love for his people...If one believes in the devil, they have to believe in God, right?

Anon,
Nothing to do with the Holocaust, it's about the Nation of Israel's existance after over 4,000 years of many kings, governments and empires trying to wipe them out. It's a miracle they are still here! Everything that God had said regarding the Nation of Israel has happened - from Moses' time until right now! Archaelogical findings have also proven the times these events took place. Although the men who wrote the Bible are long gone, (but certainly not forgotten) prophesises are being fulfilled even as we speak! Now, that's God! If you really took the time to study the Nation of Israel, the Jews, and the Bible, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to deny it. It IS proof!

Leah,
What is Lebanese food?

Rae--psh, I believe it. You should see the guys who own the restaurant.

Laura--it's got a Middle Eastern style to it. A lot of lamb. Subtle spices that are tasty but not overwhelming like Thai food can be. Hummus. BEST HUMMUS EVER! I ate like a pig. Seriously. I'm so full I won't need any more food for a month.

Ohh... haha. "No spanks."

I just got that.

JM,

you cited:

http://www.answers.com/topic/murder

Last I checked abortion was not illegal... and last I checked a fetus was not human.

Posted by: JM at November 28, 2007 8:09 PM

answers.com is not a moral authority.
Even if it were,
Appeals to authority are logical fallacies.

Basic biology easily proves that any human fetus is by definition human simply because it is not a member of any other species and its DNA is human.

Murder is a legal term and according to the laws in some countries abortion is premeditated murder, albeit not in this country. Definitions of murder are by concensus of opinion, not logic or natural law.

Abortion kills a human being.

Some folks are fine with killing these humans. Others are not.
That is the crux of the argument: The lack of concensus on the legal status of these particular humans.

Leah,
Sounds tasty...I'll have to try it!

Don't feel bad, about an hour ago, I finally got it, too!

Erin,

I'm with you on this one. We agree on something!! Eek let's take a moment to treasure this momentous occasion. I am a believer in spanking personally. I also am in full support of time-outs/positive reenforcement/distraction, etc. But sometimes, NONE of that works..so I find a swift pop on the rear gets their attention. I don't think it works to permanently deter behavior or we wouldn't have to do it more than once ever in a kid's lifetime. But if you employ the other techniques as well, the spanking is used minimally and is effective. I think a lot of parents are too afraid to spank their kids, and then their kids end up running stuff and that's not the kind of parent I am going to be. I am willing to be flexible in certain situations with my child..but she know's who's boss. I am currently going through the terrible 2's so EVERTYHING seems to be a battle with her but oh well! Just grin and bear it!

"There is also other things other than "time outs" Theres positive reinforcement. Giving the child something positive for positive behavior. If the child normally throw a tantrum in the store they you say, "if you don't throw a tantrum today, then mommy will buy you a treat" or mommy will allow the child to do something special that they don't normally get to do."
-------------------------------------

JM, are you serious? If you don't do something bad today, you get a treat? If that's a parenting philosophy, no wonder there's so many ill-mannered, spoiled kids. They misbehave, nothing happens. Then they do something right for once and expect a special reward? That's nuts.

My wife and I use timeouts. I have also used mild physical punishment when merited, such as slaps on the hand when the kids (3 and 1.5 years old) repeatedly try climbing to reach dangerous objects. What punishes them the most is when they know (especially the 3 year old) that we're disappointed with them. We let her know that we still love her, but such behavior is unacceptable.

I won't pretend that we're perfect parents. But successful parenting requires the availability of many tools and methods that change with each child. For some children, spanking is the only thing that will catch their attention. I'm not advocating abuse, but the threat of a paddle on the rump certainly helps some kids stay in line.

I agree, Michael. What are you JM? Your child's buddy. Why would you let the kids run the show so much that you have to negotiate bad behavior? Are you the adult or is the child in charge? The kid acts bad, there is a punishment. That teaches kids that there are consequences for bad choices in life.

Hey Micheal no I am not kidding. Give the kid a treat when she/he does what you ask. After they do it one time then you increase the number of times they have to be good before they get a treat again. You have to be good at the store three times before you get a treat. Eventually the child won't need the reward anymore. Weather you want to believe it or not, it works.

Elizabeth,
did i say give the child a treat when they are bad? No, I said give the child a treat for GOOD behavior? You reward GOOD behavior! Teachers in schools do it all the time. Reward the students good behavior. When I was teaching in Arizona kids would intentionally act up in my class because they WANTED the "punishment" you speak of. They wanted to be sent out of the room. So they did behaviors that would give them that. Once I started creating rewards for good behavior guess what changes happened in my classroom?

I don't care what you say. Beating a child is NEVER okay in ANY situation.

JM- I would never say that you have to spank a child to achieve the discipline they should have. I'm positive that a kid can be raised to be a healthy, happy young adult whether they get the occasional spanking or not. I'd never tell you that you SHOULD spank your kid- the issue is more whether it should be illegal, which to me, frankly, seems kind of silly.

Here is just one link that backs me up.

http://kirkhamsebooks.com/Education/Education_Articles/PositiveReinforcementLongTerm.htm

Positive reinforcement is effective and largely used for two separate reasons. Firstly, it is one of the most powerful techniques available for the direction or motivation of the actions of other people. The second reason which is more philosophical is the versatility of the concept of reinforcement as an explanation of behaviour (Walker. S, 1975). In other words, the question is why do people behave the way they do? The answer will be that it is because they (people) are reinforced for it (Walker. S, 1975).

When positive reinforcements are used, the desired outcome is that the behaviour is reinforced. Subjects understand that the behaviour is desirable and will tend to repeat it for the rewards

Skinner (Skinner,1953) and many others prefers the use of positive reinforcement to encourage good behaviours and do away with the social use of punishment altogether

Disadvantages of using negative reinforcement would be when the desired behaviour is not achieved. For instance a child was punished for strewing his toys on the floor by facing the wall and repeatedly saying he will not throw his things on the floor. He kept repeating the act and undergoing the punishment but he never understood why he should not leave his things on the floor. That is a negative outcome.

http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/advantages-disadvantages-using-positive-negative

for more information go to that site.

Being in favor of "spanking" has nothing to do with being against killing the unborn.

It's called PARENTING...an endangered concept these days, in this country where all too often KIDS have the upper hand and are in control. It's insane.

I grew up in a family of 7 kids...and yes, we got smacked, the belt, and just about everything in between, when it was warranted. We did not feel "un-loved" by any stretch of the imagination because of this. We were being taught right from wrong, and what was and wasn't accepted by society..and WE LEARNED. This discipline took place at home AND in public. We learned very early on what the boundaries were as far as our behavior was concerned, as did the majority of kids we grew up with. I do not feel scarred for life as a result of any of it.

Spanking that evolves into serious abuse is obviously horrible and inexcusable and should be punishable.

Parenting and spanking go hand in hand and have for generations. It needs to be brought back and used more often !

I have absolutely no sympathy for parents who have kids that are out of control because they were too afraid to level discipline on them and force them to conform to the standards we are all expected to live by and with.

It's called "tough love", people.

I got spanked with a belt when I was younger (maybe a total of five times). It was never out of anger and they explained to me why I was getting a spanking. After that, if I misbehaved, my mother/father would take their belt off, fold it in half and make that god awful "crack" sound. Seriously, that sound STILL haunts me to this day :-(

JM is basically right.

A very good friend of mine notes that parenting is all about getting up off your butt. I mean positive reinforcement takes effort. Spanking gets immediate but not lasting results. Is that really what you want? Bribery is very effective so long as you are setting the expectation and only rewarding if they produce the behavior. James Dobson explains positive reinforcement well for those of you who favor his ideas. He also explains why spanking is particularly ill advised in certain situations. Dozens of others who write on parenting say things similar as do behavioral psychologists etc. I taught public school and absolutely got respect and discipline using positive reinforcement and requiring performance for rewards and privileges.

Haha JM do not be so dramatic. I don't beat my child. Beating and a pop on the rear end are WAY different. I reward her for good behavior..but I don't negotiate that behavior in any way. She acts good she is rewarded..she acts bad, there is a punishment/consequence. No negotiating her to get her to act good. She either does or she doesn't. But either way, something will happen. Maybe if more of the parents of the kids in your class actually disciplined them, they wouldn't have been acting like such brats in class. I didn't act up in class hardly ever. Not because I didn't want the school's punishment, but because I didn't want to have to deal with my parent's. And they never beat me, they just took away stuff and yelled at me. That was WAY worse than any teacher can do to me. Oh yeah, and my mom would go and sit in class with my brothers when they acted really bad in class. Needless to say they NEVER acted that way again. Haha, my mom rocks.

While I dont' think mild spanking should be illegal, but it should be discouraged as much as possible. There are many other ways to discipline your kid. It's sad when people think it must be spanking or no discipline at all. There is a space in between. Spanking is not the only form of punishment there is.

"I believe that since the "time-out" movement, children have become quite bratty, especially in grocery stores & malls. They know you can't give them a "time-out" there! But, if you spanked them, you can do that anywhere & they know it!"

You've never seen Supernanny!

Hippie, I am not disagreeing that positive reenforcement is a GREAT thing. I often go EVERY other route before I would ever spank. Distraction, Time-out's, positive reenforcement, etc. But sometimes, you just need to get your kid's attention. A pop on the butt does that. As a teacher, you are not allowed to use physical measures to gain compliance as you shouldn't, so those other measures are absolutely necessary. But as a parent, I find it extremely silly to outlaw spanking a child. Playing games with the children to get them to do what you want works in school sure. As a parent, I'm not going to play games with my kid to get them to listen to me. At that point, I've lost the control as a parent and adult in the situation.

Haha PIP, I LOVE supernanny but am SHOCKED to see how some of those parents allowed their kids to get SO out of control!

"Oh yeah, and my mom would go and sit in class with my brothers when they acted really bad in class. "

Some of my students parents said they'd do that, never did though. I bet it does work though! I bet it would have worked, especially since i taught 7th grade.

There are a few spoiled kids though I admit just need to be spanked. But these are kids that are older and really know better. I'd get a kick out of it if the parents on "My Super Sweet 16" picked up their kid and spanked them for being so ungrateful.

Yeah, JM it does..my brother was in 8th grade when my mom did that to him. He never had trouble with behavior in school again.

PIP, Man those kids on that super sweet 16 show are so bratty and mean, it makes me sick! But those kids were probably raised by nannies anyway.

Elizabeth-

ME TOO that show is so addictive

Elizabeth-

you are probably right. It just makes my skin crawl, though.

Like the south park take on it. Satan throws a sweet 16 party. When he gets mad that he has an acura cake rather than a ferari cake, he throws a tantrum. He apologizes and his assistant said, "Don't worry, Satan. You aren't as bad as those girls on TV."

HAHA that is great PIP! I can't imagine having a party like that and THEN being obnoxiously mean to my parents. I would kick my own a** for that for real.

seriously! It's just insane how bratty those chicks are.

Lol, in new york the mtv store had the super sweet sixteen shirt on like 1/2 off.

I bought it and then ironed some sparkled letters on the back that said,

"I want the king of Siam at my party!"

I'm not sure where I heard it, but it stuck with me, and a friend later told me it was probably the Daily Show.

My Super Sweet Sixteen is addicting. I can't stop watching it.

My favorite one was when this girl begged her daddy for a jag for her birthday. Of course she got what she wanted. She got behind the wheel and said "now I just need to get my license" It just made me laugh.

"Last I checked abortion was not illegal... and last I checked a fetus was not human."

More than one person is sitting in jail for having killed someones "non-human", and getting charged with murder.

It is legally considered murder to kill an non-viable, unborn child, but only if the killing is done by someone other than the mother.

This would be yet another inconsistency in the pro-choice movement. The child hasn't changed, only the "murderer" has...bizarre.

Society should start with the proper message. Stop killing your children by abortion! Make it illegal. Otherwise, how can we really expect any type of child abuse to stop? Abortion IS the ultimate child abuse!

There are other ways to discipline, but not every method works for every kid every time!

I'm confused by the language "children under the age of 18". Are there children over 18? If your kid can vote are you allowed to spank them then?

A wise rule of thumb regarding spanking is that it should decrease as the child's age increases. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and also the older children get the more rational they are.

Supernanny is rubbernecking for moms. It's so horrible, but you Just. Can't. Look. Away!

Milehi,

Where've you been?!?!

A wise rule of thumb regarding spanking is that it should decrease as the child's age increases. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and also the older children get the more rational they are.

I believe that if you are still "Spanking" your 17 year old, you need more help than I or the supernanny can give you. (lol) That would be the age where the "broom" comes in handy!

I'm in favor of spakings , as long as the spanking is not out of anger. When the child does something good, reward him/her; if he/she does something wrong (that deserves a punishment), explain why it was wrong, and give them a spanking.

AT&T + Holiday + Cold/Flu/Sickness have conspired to keep me from the keyboard. Plus the 9 yo ruined the #2 key and had to wait for it to dry out.

BTW - I have a post up on my silly housewife blog about Ron Paul and prolife.

Spanking should be considered depending on the child's personality. I never should have been spanked as a child, I believe my parents really screwed up there. It didn't work on me and I ran away from home at 15 and didn't have contact with my mom for 12 years, I still don't speak to my dad. I consider using the belt abusive, it make your child fear you, not respect you. Spanking is something that should be used as a last resort and is something that I can see easily getting out of control. I don't want to be one of those parents who ALWAYS feels like they are constantly spanking their kids with little results.

My mom had a wooden spoon. You obeyed. You didn't sass. Because that spoon HURTS.

Spanking is just one of the many "tools" in the parental "toolbox" for training one's children in correct behavior. Positive reinforcement, time-outs, grounding, spanking ... they are all appropriate for different circumstances. You wouldn't use a saw to drive a nail, right? In my opinion, spanking is only appropriate in rather extreme cases of outright defiance or dangerous behavior. However, in those situations, spanking can be an effective form of discipline if used properly.

I'm a regular listener to Dr. Mohler's podcast, and he covered the proposed spanking ban in a recent show. Apparently, there are many countries that already outlaw spanking. Wacky, huh? Just one more reason that I don't ever want to leave the good ol' US of A for any longer than a vacation. Our country surely isn't perfect, but we're a long way ahead of the rest of the world. :)

Really, the proposed spanking ban is just one more way that certain people want to put Big Government in-between parents and our kids. Our children can already get abortions and birth control without our knowledge or consent. Unless you're wealthy enough for a private school (or willing to homeschool, like we do), your kids are being indoctrinated by the government education monopoly. And your little girls are going to get vaccinated for HPV unless you're vigilant enough to opt-out....

Bluntly put, the State needs to get the heck out of our families. Let me raise my kids as God (or conscience, if you're secular) leads me to do. Sure, outright abuse needs to be stopped, but the bar should be set very high for State intervention. I firmly believe that the vast majority of parents simply want to raise their children as best they can. Don't get in our way simply to catch the few deviants who actually want to harm their kids....

I'm not keen on spanking, but I don't think it should be criminalized. A parent needs authority to enforce the rules of behaviour, and sometimes the best solution in a given circumstance is a swat on the bum. I don't think that it's a good long-term strategy, but a parent can't be deprived of the power of co-ercion.

I beleive that positive reinforcement is more effective than spanking- however, there is something to be said for a healthy fear of parental authority. A holy beating has saved many children from growing into adults who make dangerous choices.

I also think a smack in the face is the prefect response to disrespecting your mama.

Hey! Henry Hyde went to Hell!

So gonna miss him...

Hey! Henry Hyde went to Hell!

Classy. Very classy. I'm praying for you and your cement heart.

Something missing from the critique of this stupid plan: how the state will use it to turn children against parents. Are they going to quiz them at school? Could an immature 8 or 9 yo accuse a parent they are mad at - without realizing the consequences? What kind of proof is going to be required to prosecute private spankings at home - are young children going to be strip searched now? Obviously the parents wouldn't be present for that - so the children would be strip searched in a roomful of strangers?!!

Are parents going to resist taking their child to the doctor for routine care, because they spank and are afraid the kid might "let it slip" (I'm not talking about bruises/marks/etc.)? It's naive to think that parents are going to change their method overnight. What are the penalties? What about people visiting in their state?

Wow Laura,
Alliterative, judgemental, and ignorant all in one sentence. Is that a record for you?

Classy. Very classy. I'm praying for you and your cement heart.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 29, 2007 10:35 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can't make forms out of cement. My heart is concrete. (I like the epoxy concrete that you just pour water over...)

Wow Laura,
Alliterative, judgemental, and ignorant all in one sentence. Is that a record for you?

Posted by: Milehimama at November 29, 2007 10:37 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are women who fight for our country and risk death every day, but can't get the medical care afforded other American women because of good 'ol dead Henry Hyde.

Murder isn't healthcare.

And, if they were pregnant, they wouldn't be fighting for our country, they'd be on desk duty.

Milehimama wrote:
And, if they were pregnant, they wouldn't be fighting for our country, they'd be on desk duty.

I thought our military still kept women in non-combat positions only? There are certainly women serving our country in the military -- and risking their lives to do so -- but they shouldn't be fighting. A minor point perhaps, but accuracy matters.

Anyway, Laura's complaint about the supposed injustice that our military women suffer because of the Hyde Amendment simply points out the obvious: Integrating women into our armed forces was foolish. "Womyn's Rights" silliness aside, there is a difference between the genders, and we aren't equally-suited for all roles.

Milehimama, I honestly think that there will be some quizzing going on at school. I have seen many examples of an elitist mentality from MA school department employees. By elitist mentality, I mean that some act as if they know better what best for the child and the parents do not. That really is my main concern about this law. It will really give some a license to intrude into families even more than they already do.

They aren't supposed to be "fighting" but they sure are in harm's way, in enemy territory, and being trained to fight. If the US Army was really serious about 'non-combat' for women, would they issue them weapons?

I agree that it is foolish to have a coed Army, for many reasons (none of which include that women *just can't do it* or are too helpless).

leave out the word *better* in the second sentence and change "what best" to what's best. Sorry

And, if they were pregnant, they wouldn't be fighting for our country, they'd be on desk duty.

Posted by: Milehimama at November 29, 2007 10:44 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...Or get a 15-minute procedure and get on with their career.

Sally,
What about a c-section? Is that abuse, too?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 28, 2007 7:56 PM
.........................................

Splitting mommy open and having junior ripped from the whom is quite abusive Laura. Isn't that what those murdering abortionists do? If junior doesn't survive the c-section the doctor would be a murderer don't ya know. Sue the doctor! @@

Sally said, "That sounds a little kinky Laura. The picture could be quite a turn on for a pedophile into this particular behavior."

And who's thought was it, Sally? What are you saying?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 28, 2007 8:02 PM
.................................................

Let's see. You find a children's sex ed book to be porn but not some guy obviously enjoying spanking a young boy. Notice the smile on the man's face and the intensity of his gaze. If I witnessed something like this I would report it. Totally creepy picture.

Is too, JM

Posted by: AB Laura at November 28, 2007 8:07 PM
......................................

Were you stamping your feet when you typed that?

Yep, Sally...Like a little baby I was! (my next one was going to be: is too is too is too is too.)

Sally said, "Let's see. You find a children's sex ed book to be porn but not some guy obviously enjoying spanking a young boy."

Please, Sally, find ONE post that I thought the children's sex book to be porn. I'd love to see that!

That guy in the picture isn't smiling - he's saying something...and calm down...it's just a picture!!!

Check out this story ABC news did on a mom that had breast cancer and was pregnant.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/CancerPreventionAndTreatment/story?id=3925550&page=1

Hippie, I am not disagreeing that positive reenforcement is a GREAT thing. I often go EVERY other route before I would ever spank. Distraction, Time-out's, positive reenforcement, etc. But sometimes, you just need to get your kid's attention. A pop on the butt does that. As a teacher, you are not allowed to use physical measures to gain compliance as you shouldn't, so those other measures are absolutely necessary. But as a parent, I find it extremely silly to outlaw spanking a child. Playing games with the children to get them to do what you want works in school sure. As a parent, I'm not going to play games with my kid to get them to listen to me. At that point, I've lost the control as a parent and adult in the situation.

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 28, 2007 11:47 PM
.......................................................................

I can see a pop on the butt as a little 'snap out of it' dope slap but does that really constitute spanking? Is this what the picture illustrates to you?

Society should start with the proper message. Stop killing your children by abortion! Make it illegal. Otherwise, how can we really expect any type of child abuse to stop? Abortion IS the ultimate child abuse!

Posted by: heather at November 29, 2007 6:40 AM
.................................

Really Heather?There was no child abuse when abortion was illegal?

PIP,
"I'd get a kick out of it if the parents on "My Super Sweet 16" picked up their kid and spanked them for being so ungrateful."

Lol you and my Dad should hang out! Whenever I watch any show with teen girls he walks right on over and says, "is that that party show? Is it the party show? They need to be spanked."

My Dad's always talking about how kids need to be spanked or that he's gonna "pop me one" but he'd never do it he's all talk, lol. The worst thing I can ever remember my Dad doing to me was probably last year when he called me a bitch. Granted I probably deserved it at the time but it shocked me cause I'd never even heard him say that word before.

Here's a blog post about the breast cancer pregnancy story that ABC did yesterday night.

http://nicsurvivors.blogspot.com

"A holy beating has saved many children from growing into adults who make dangerous choices."

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 29, 2007 10:19 AM

-------------------------------
Could you inform me where you found this data? or did you just make it up? I wonder how they could really study this. Maybe that asked some kids and they said if my mom and dad didn't hit me i would have made some bad choices. Seriously where did you get that information? I'm curious. When I had to write a paper about this topic I never remember finding any studies or information on that.

Sally said, "I can see a pop on the butt as a little 'snap out of it' dope slap but does that really constitute spanking? Is this what the picture illustrates to you?"

Sally, I think you're seeing things...the guy in the picture has his hand approx. 1-foot away from the kid's butt. Now, you're point would make sense if his hand was well above his head, but come on!

Speaking of spanking, I thought this was totally hilarious:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=496827&in_page_id=1879&in_a_source=

Milehi,

Where've you been?!?!

A wise rule of thumb regarding spanking is that it should decrease as the child's age increases. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and also the older children get the more rational they are.

I believe that if you are still "Spanking" your 17 year old, you need more help than I or the supernanny can give you. (lol) That would be the age where the "broom" comes in handy!

Posted by: mk at November 29, 2007 9:21 AM
...........................................................

You go after a 17 year old with a weapon of any kind and you are likely to find yourself in jail. Or knocked on your butt. Especially if you've taught that 17 year old that violence is the answer to anger and frustration.

Bob Enyart has his kids taken away from him because he gave one of his stepkids 5 swats on the backside with a small belt.

The very small red marks that disappeared by the next day were blown up and put in the newspapers. Enyart went to trial and won the appeal. Then that appeal was overturned and Enyart served a very short amount of time in jail around the time the Columbine shootings occured.

this all reinforces the fact that we don't have a justice system. Its just a system. A really messed up system.

"I can see a pop on the butt as a little 'snap out of it' dope slap"

Actually I disagree that a little pop on the butt does anything.

Sorry, but a half hearted swat through 3 inches of soggy diaper and fleece sweatpants doesn't teach a child anything. Except Mom will chase them when she's mad.

If you are going to spank, then spank. Deliberately - not in the heat of anger. And make sure the kid knows he's been spanked! Otherwise, why bother?

Spanking is just one of the many "tools" in the parental "toolbox" for training one's children in correct behavior. Positive reinforcement, time-outs, grounding, spanking ... they are all appropriate for different circumstances. You wouldn't use a saw to drive a nail, right? In my opinion, spanking is only appropriate in rather extreme cases of outright defiance or dangerous behavior. However, in those situations, spanking can be an effective form of discipline if used properly.

I'm a regular listener to Dr. Mohler's podcast, and he covered the proposed spanking ban in a recent show. Apparently, there are many countries that already outlaw spanking. Wacky, huh? Just one more reason that I don't ever want to leave the good ol' US of A for any longer than a vacation. Our country surely isn't perfect, but we're a long way ahead of the rest of the world. :)

Really, the proposed spanking ban is just one more way that certain people want to put Big Government in-between parents and our kids. Our children can already get abortions and birth control without our knowledge or consent. Unless you're wealthy enough for a private school (or willing to homeschool, like we do), your kids are being indoctrinated by the government education monopoly. And your little girls are going to get vaccinated for HPV unless you're vigilant enough to opt-out....

Bluntly put, the State needs to get the heck out of our families. Let me raise my kids as God (or conscience, if you're secular) leads me to do. Sure, outright abuse needs to be stopped, but the bar should be set very high for State intervention. I firmly believe that the vast majority of parents simply want to raise their children as best they can. Don't get in our way simply to catch the few deviants who actually want to harm their kids....

Posted by: Naaman at November 29, 2007 9:56 AM
......................................................................

I agree that government needs to stay out of our private lives. I believe education is the answer. There will always be abusives but I believe there would be fewer through teaching how abuse effects society as a whole and what abuse actually is.
It's too bad that you've never left the good ole' US. You'd find that we are far behind other countries in many respects. Health care and education for all children isn't exactly lagging behind in my book.
As for being vigilant against disease-----huh? Not protecting daughters from possible cancer smacks of blaming women for original sin. Since HPV cannot be detected in men, your daughter is at risk for HPV from any man including a husband. It sounds less like you care about a daughter's health than you do controlling her sexuality. What if your little girl is raped?

I was only slapped in the face one time when I told my mom to shut the f* up as a teenager. I was angry because she was yelling at me for something I didn't even think was that bad and I couldn't take it anymore.

I deserved it, but at the same time I don't think it was the right thing to do. It only made us angrier at each other. If it came down to spanking or slap in the face, I'd take spanking anytime. Spanking at least gets the point across and doesn't really seem so offensive.

Jess,

LOL! I totally agree with your dad though. Sometimes people just need to be spanked.

Milehimama wrote:
And, if they were pregnant, they wouldn't be fighting for our country, they'd be on desk duty.

I thought our military still kept women in non-combat positions only? There are certainly women serving our country in the military -- and risking their lives to do so -- but they shouldn't be fighting. A minor point perhaps, but accuracy matters.

Anyway, Laura's complaint about the supposed injustice that our military women suffer because of the Hyde Amendment simply points out the obvious: Integrating women into our armed forces was foolish. "Womyn's Rights" silliness aside, there is a difference between the genders, and we aren't equally-suited for all roles.

Posted by: Naaman at November 29, 2007 11:05 AM
...........................................................................

Like what Naaman? Women aren't suited to the medical profession, engineering, what? Do you think that every member of the military is a front line grunt?

Sally said, "Let's see. You find a children's sex ed book to be porn but not some guy obviously enjoying spanking a young boy."

Please, Sally, find ONE post that I thought the children's sex book to be porn. I'd love to see that!

That guy in the picture isn't smiling - he's saying something...and calm down...it's just a picture!!!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 12:01 PM
.............................................
I didn't see you arguing with compatriots assertion that it was.

Yep, Sally...Like a little baby I was! (my next one was going to be: is too is too is too is too.)

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 11:57 AM
...........................................

Thought so! ; )

Sally said, "I didn't see you arguing with compatriots assertion that it was."

I didn't see the book to make my own assertion. I couldn't argue or be in agreement with anyone regarding the book being pornographic.

Could you inform me where you found this data?

It's not data; it's an opinion. Parents discipline because the alternative is much worse. If your teen drives too fast, you'll take away the car keys. His punishment is worse than possibly killing himself or others. If your child steals from you, you'll ground them. It's a better alternative than him stealing from a store and having a lifetime criminal record.

Discipline corrects and it deters. I beleive that a healthy fear of mom and dad has saved children from becoming lawless adults.

And how do you juxtapose that position with your pro-abortion position?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 28, 2007 6:23 PM
****************************************
Im not pro abortion. And there are no parallells at all between child abuse and removing mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure from the uterus of a woman who does not want it to be there.

Sally said, "I can see a pop on the butt as a little 'snap out of it' dope slap but does that really constitute spanking? Is this what the picture illustrates to you?"

Sally, I think you're seeing things...the guy in the picture has his hand approx. 1-foot away from the kid's butt. Now, you're point would make sense if his hand was well above his head, but come on!
Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 12:12 PM
..............................................

Don't be obtuse. He's starting at the boys butt. Whether he is saying something or not, he is smiling. There is no look of regret for what he is obviously doing.

Sally, and abortion is murder. Don't forget it.

Posted by: heather at November 28, 2007 7:54 PM
**********************
Only according to liars, heather. Dont forget that.

I have a serious problem with the government intruding this far into peoples private lives. This is just going entirely too far. When my kids were growing up for some reason every once in awhile their ears just stopped working. The reset button seemed to be their backside and after one or two swats with the flat of my hand the ears started working again just fine. From my perspective, they were given fair warning, it was easy to understand, it was immediate, it was non negotiable. And it also didnt punish the other child who may have been behaving just fine - immediately leaving the mall, park, whatever, punished both of them. If a child is being *spanked* hard enough to cause physical harm then we already have laws which cover that. We dont need further government intrusion.

JM,
Was that definition of murder concocted by man or by God?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 28, 2007 8:17 PM
***********************
Nothing anywhere in the bible does it say god thinks abortion is murder or even killing, or that god or the men who wrote the bible had any problem with the practice at all.

There are numerous references to the humanity of the unborn in the Bible, and obviously, "Thou shalt not kill" applies to humans at all stages of development from conception to elderly.

I can't believe it, I agree with TexasRed.

Her 1:59 post is a perfect example of when spanking can be useful.

TexasRed said, "Nothing anywhere in the bible does it say god thinks abortion is murder or even killing, or that god or the men who wrote the bible had any problem with the practice at all."

OK, I'll go through this again for you:

my all time favorite, for murderers, which include abortionists, and the likes of PP:

Psalm 10:8-11
He sits in the lurking places of the villages; In the secret places he murders the innocent; His eyes are secretly fixed on the helpless. He lies in wait secretly, as a lion in his den; He lies in wait to catch the poor; He catches the poor when he draws him into his net. So he crouches, he lies low, That the helpless may fall by his strength. He has said in his heart, "God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will never see."

That may have well been Margaret Sanger's favorite verse, also (but for very different reasons, of course!)

BTW: In the NIV.....

"Murder" has 32 references
"Murdered" has 18 references
"Murderer" has 20 references
"Murderers" has 6 references
"Murdering" has 2 references
"Murderous" has 1 reference
"Murders" has 4 references

Again, pretty clear to me!

You can dismember the kid.
********
That would be against the law. Abortion has nothing to do with kids and spanking has nothing to do with an embryo or fetus unless someone is spanking the woman pregnant.

TexasRed said, "Abortion has nothing to do with kids"

Since you take such a liking to definitions, please define "kids" and tell me the exact ages "kids" cover, please.

There are numerous references to the humanity of the unborn in the Bible, and obviously, "Thou shalt not kill" applies to humans at all stages of development from conception to elderly.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 29, 2007 2:32 PM
*********************
The commandment is against committing murder, not killing. Killing was excused, condoned, justified and even commanded all thru the old testament. But nothing ANYWHERE in the bible gives any indication that god or the men who wrote the bible thought abortion WAS murder, was killing, was wrong, or that they had any problem at all with the practice. This is fact, its not opinion. And you can try to rationalize and excuse and 'interpret' and 'translate' and assume and invent all you want, but you wont change that fact. Abortion was known when the scriptures were being written and the men who wrote the scriptures didnt even think it was important enough to mention. And since you had a culture which would have killed a woman in a particularly gruesome way for getting pregnant outside of marriage, and could kill a woman for being the victim of rape, or could force a woman to marry her rapist, trying to pretend the WOMEN of the children of Israel didnt know about abortion is being willfuly blind.

Again, pretty clear to me!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 2:50 PM
****************************
Your personal inventions assumptions fabrications interpretations and translations are not 'the word of god'. The bible never makes any mention of the practice of abortion even though it has been around for thousands of years. This is fact, not opinion, even if you do not have the backbone to face it. You can say 'I THINK' abortion is wrong but the bible doesnt back you up.

TexasRed said, "Abortion has nothing to do with kids"

Since you take such a liking to definitions, please define "kids" and tell me the exact ages "kids" cover, please.

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 3:05 PM
**********************************************
I love how antichoicers start trying to split hairs when they cant think of anything else to say. You want an exaaaaaaaaaaact age! And then you wonder why I find your arguments so pathetically laughable.

This was the original quote:

You can dismember the kid. Just don't spank him.

It was a profoundly idiotic statement. A fetus or an embryo has nothing to do with spanking. If youre talking about a *kid* who could be spanked then obviously dismembering them would be against the law. Its a profoundly stupid argument.

TexasRed said, "I love how antichoicers start trying to split hairs when they cant think of anything else to say. You want an exaaaaaaaaaaact age! And then you wonder why I find your arguments so pathetically laughable."

Yes, I do want an exact age. You set your comments in stone, so back it up!!!
Or what, did you Google it already and couldn't find an answer to your original statement? Come on...back it up!

TexasRed said, "I love how antichoicers start trying to split hairs when they cant think of anything else to say. You want an exaaaaaaaaaaact age! And then you wonder why I find your arguments so pathetically laughable."

Yes, I do want an exact age. You set your comments in stone, so back it up!!!
Or what, did you Google it already and couldn't find an answer to your original statement? Come on...back it up!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 3:18 PM
***************************************
Jill is the one who used the term 'kids' originally. I quoted her. I provided the specific quote to which I was making a reply. Why dont you bleat at her and demand to know what SHE meant when SHE used it? Or better yet, why dont you throw yourself onto the floor, drum your heels on the carpet, beat your fists on the rug, puff out your cheeks and hold your breath until your face turns blue?

TexasRed said, "That would be against the law. Abortion has nothing to do with kids and spanking has nothing to do with an embryo or fetus unless someone is spanking the woman pregnant."

Posted by: TexasRed at November 29, 2007 2:59 PM

------------------

No, you stated that abortion has nothing to do with kids, hence my question to you that you cannot answer. Back up YOUR statement! I am in total agreement with Jill. The two ARE related. They are both kids. Unless, of course, you can back up your statement and change my mind!

No, you stated that abortion has nothing to do with kids, hence my question to you that you cannot answer. Back up YOUR statement! I am in total agreement with Jill. The two ARE related. They are both kids. Unless, of course, you can back up your statement and change my mind!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 3:36 PM
**************************************
As I said - Jill is the one who used the term 'kids' originally. I quoted her. I provided the specific quote to which I was making a reply. Why dont you bleat at her and demand to know what SHE meant when SHE used it? Or better yet, why dont you throw yourself onto the floor, drum your heels on the carpet, beat your fists on the rug, puff out your cheeks and hold your breath until your face turns blue?

TexasRed,
Can't do it, huh? Just admit..I'll still love ya', I promise!

TexasRed,
Can't do it, huh? Just admit..I'll still love ya', I promise!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 3:51 PM
*************************
Ask Jill what she meant. I quoted her. She was talking about spanking. Care to tell me how you can spank either an embryo or a fetus?

Nice try...I do give you kudos for that. Quite a pathetic attempt, though, I must say!

TexasRed said, "Your personal inventions assumptions fabrications interpretations and translations are not 'the word of god'. The bible never makes any mention of the practice of abortion even though it has been around for thousands of years. This is fact, not opinion, even if you do not have the backbone to face it. You can say 'I THINK' abortion is wrong but the bible doesnt back you up.

Posted by: TexasRed at November 29, 2007 3:10 PM

-----------------

OK, since you were stumped on backing up your previous statement, try this one on for size:

The bible says nothing about setting a spouse on fire...does that mean it is OK to do this?

The bible says nothing about shooting someone with an AK47..does that mean it is OK to do this?

Can't wait for your response..........

"Abortion was known when the scriptures were being written and the men who wrote the scriptures didnt even think it was important enough to mention. "
Texas Red- in the Didache, 1st century, the first catholics explicitly stated that it was wrong to have an abortion.

However, I think in the old testament days it was deemed okay if it was before "quickening." Someone correct me if I"m wrong on this.

In OT times, quickening WAS the positive pregnancy test. So it was basically wrong as soon as a woman was sure she was pregnant.

It's not like they had ClearBlue Easy back then.

But you missed quite a few periods. Your belly probably was a little bloated back then. I mean you'd think 18-20 weeks would be enough for a woman to know she was with child.

I wasn't there ;)
But women miss periods for all manner of reasons - health, nutrition, too much work, etc. If a woman missed a couple of periods during lean times AND was helping with planting or something, it might not be seen as unusual. In addition, there is menopause, perimenopause, and postpartum times when a cycle is irregular; women married young and might not even have regular cycles yet. It's not like women get a period at age 13 and then always have them every 28 days until they suddenly stop at age 45.

I would *imagine* they suspected something usually - but the quickening was the proof.

TR,

Your position on spanking I actually agree with. Some of your other later comments...eh...but I'll take the agreement I have for now! The government taking control of discipline for children is ludicrous. Abuse and discipline are different. The law covers abuse, it shouldn't cover how I get my kid to shape up and act right.

AB Laura,

And my all time favorite:

The bible doesn't specifically mention that you can't kill midgets either, but I'm pretty sure it was a no-no. And while there may not have been AK-47's, there were midgets.

It also doesn't say that you can't commit adultery in a tree. Or go to temple stark naked. Or put kidney beans up your nose. Or have sex with Emu's. Or take cyanide. Or stab horses. Or marry ducks...I could go on, but what's the point.

Texas Red would just say that all these things are okay and it's just my interpretation that says they are wrong.

mk,

Yep, I think so too! I love your examples (LOL). TR has practiced all of the "easy ones" all of these years, but when the questions acually come down to common sense...TR is gone!

Thanks for the help!

MK,

A christian friend of mine calls making something a religious argument without anything from the bible, is called speaking from the absence of scripture.

She jokingly refers to people who comment on stuff they don't understand as speaking from the absence of knowledge.

"Abortion was known when the scriptures were being written and the men who wrote the scriptures didnt even think it was important enough to mention. "
Texas Red- in the Didache, 1st century, the first catholics explicitly stated that it was wrong to have an abortion.

However, I think in the old testament days it was deemed okay if it was before "quickening." Someone correct me if I"m wrong on this.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 29, 2007 4:47 PM

Historians note that societies make rules against things that are a problem. Ancient texts and other sources list all kinds of crimes. Abortion may not be mentioned because no one was doing it. Therefore it was not a problem. It could be that in some cultures, it didn't occur to them to try to end a pregnancy. I don't know. It is just a surmise,

Spanking is a good punishment/behavior modification deal for some kids, and not for others.

I grew up in the 1960s and 70s, and I think all our friends and classmates got spanked. Not an ax-murderer in the bunch, as far as I know.

Of course a given punishment won't be perfect nor even "good" for a given kid, but it's nuts to act like spanking is some great evil.

Heck, in 7th grade, Mike Quinlan and I raced, toward the end of the year, to see who could get the most "cracks," and "whacks," and "visits from the 'board of education.' " We'd just wait until the teacher was looking, then fire a spitwad or do something else guaranteed to get a rap.

Those were the days of wearing 6 or 7 pairs of underwear... He beat me, 48 to 46, a defeat that still carries some sting (much more than the paddling itself) even though almost 36 years have passed.

Haha, MK, you seriously crack me up.

"or marry ducks..." haha..what the world would be like if we COULD marry ducks though. I think it would be a better place.

"You can dismember the kid. Just don't spank him."

plus they just increased the buffer zone around killing centers in Massachusetts form 18-35 feet.

Yep, the Masschusetts politicians are coo-coo liberal.

I spank my kids occasionally for specific transgressions, and I was spanked occasionally as a kid too, but our basic punishment is "time out". It's nonconfrontational, so I don't get angry and worked up, and its a clear and immediate punishment that they understand. Someone earlier said kids are brattier in stores, etc, since "time outs" became the fashion. I think their parents aren't following-through on punishment regardless. I'd be a hundred times more likely to put my kid in time out right in the middle of a store, then I would be to spank them in a store. The key is consistency.

When my little ones were just starting to crawl and get around, I used to give them a flick on the hand if they got close to something they shouldn't have. Would that be next to be outlawed?

OK, since you were stumped on backing up your previous statement, try this one on for size:

The bible says nothing about setting a spouse on fire...does that mean it is OK to do this?

The bible says nothing about shooting someone with an AK47..does that mean it is OK to do this?

Can't wait for your response..........

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 4:36 PM
********************************
How about thats a tremendously stupid argument? Shooting your spouse or setting them on fire would kill them or would at least be attempted murder. Murder IS condemned in the bible. Abortion was practiced when the bible was written but not one word anywhere in the bible condemns the practice.

Nice try...I do give you kudos for that. Quite a pathetic attempt, though, I must say!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 4:06 PM
********************************************
As I said, ask Jill what she meant - she was the one who made the comment about *kids* to begin with and I was referencing her comment.

In OT times, quickening WAS the positive pregnancy test. So it was basically wrong as soon as a woman was sure she was pregnant.

It's not like they had ClearBlue Easy back then.

Posted by: Milehimama at November 29, 2007 4:59 PM
*******************
What? the woman is going to suspect she is pregnant as soon as she missed her first period - same as today. Then she'd probably have all the other secondary symptoms - nausea, breast tenderness etc. She would know she was pregnant in the first trimester. Quickening is when she begins to detect fetal movement and that would typically be relatively far into gestation.

Texas Red would just say that all these things are okay and it's just my interpretation that says they are wrong.

Posted by: mk at November 29, 2007 6:48 PM
*****************************************
Youre looking idiotic again. Youre quite good at it. You refuse to face the simple fact that the bible doesnt condemn abortion. Its not a matter of right and wrong. I have no problem at all agreeing abortion is the wrong choice for a whole lot of women. I also accept that for many its the right choice. But when you say 'god says abortion is wrong' the bible does NOT back you up. Thats not opinion. Thats fact. Abortion was known when the scriptures were written but not one single solitary verse condemns the practice, let alone says that its murder or even killing.

mk,

Yep, I think so too! I love your examples (LOL). TR has practiced all of the "easy ones" all of these years, but when the questions acually come down to common sense...TR is gone!

Thanks for the help!

Posted by: AB Laura at November 29, 2007 7:25 PM
****************************
How laughable you are. Youre the one who doesnt have the guts or the backbone or the integrity to deal with simple straightforward fact.

Historians note that societies make rules against things that are a problem. Ancient texts and other sources list all kinds of crimes. Abortion may not be mentioned because no one was doing it. Therefore it was not a problem. It could be that in some cultures, it didn't occur to them to try to end a pregnancy. I don't know. It is just a surmise,

Posted by: hippie at November 29, 2007 8:04 PM
**************************************
You had a culture which would kill women in a particularly gruesome fashion if they got pregnant outside of marriage. Look up what 'stoning' actually involves. You have a culture where women could be killed for being raped. You have a culture where women could be forced to marry their rapist. And you want to pretend no one mentioned abortion just because 'no one was doing it'? Thats laughable.

TR,

Abortion was known when the scriptures were written but not one single solitary verse condemns the practice, let alone says that its murder or even killing.

Midgets were know back then too. as were ducks and trees and lima beans. What's your point? Some things are just obvious. Not to mention that Catholics don't follow sola scriptura. It doesn't matter if it was explicitly mentioned in scripture. We also believe in sacred tradition. From the beginning of the Christian/Catholic church abortion has been doctrinally wrong. For someone that doesn't believe in either the bible or God, you sure are obsessing.

Scripture doesn't mention abortion specifically. There are you happy? So what? It's still wrong and that can be inferred from scripture. Sheesh, give it a rest.

I'm done responding to you for the night. I am so tired of your petty insults...yawn, I think I'll go watch some grass grow. It would be more rewarding then listening to your same five insults. Let me know when you learn some new ones. Better yet, go buy a monkey island game. They have a whole chapter in there about how to insult a pirate properly and win!

TR,
God created black & white, man created shades of gray. You are only making a very simplistic thing complicated by applying YOUR opinion that God did not say abortion is murder.
Are you an athiest?

TR,
God created black & white, man created shades of gray. You are only making a very simplistic thing complicated by applying YOUR opinion that God did not say abortion is murder.
Are you an athiest?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 30, 2007 5:02 PM
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The concept of black & white/good & evil is Dualism and of Greek philosophical derivation rather than Hebrew.

Sally,
God created the concept...

Sally,
God created the concept...

Posted by: AB Laura at November 30, 2007 6:52 PM
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God created Greek Gods/philosophy? How new are you to Christianity? Does: 'Worship no other Gods before me', ring a bell?
That includes adopting the forms of worship of 'other Gods'. That would include the philosophy of Dualism. Of course the RCC wouldn't exist without such an adoption of heathen belief. And that would be just one such distinction between Catholics and Protestants concerning doctrine.
But whatever Laura. Believe what makes you happy.

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