God, this makes me so angry.

What are people waiting for? Where's the lawsuits already??? Why do we pro-lifers insist on being trampled on?

There must be much more to protect here than just the "right" of abortive "mothers...I don't know...the whole thing is just a bit suspicious to me....

Hey, I just noticed in the picture above that they broke out #407 "Forensic Unit" for the event...how appropriate!

Sorry, Jill, I'm on a roll with this one...

Keep in mind that this is a public sidewalk in front of private property...apartments..which, if the office manager of PP Aurora(not sure if she's still at PP, though) did not live on the lower level behind this sidewalk, do you really think Aurora PD would care about "tenants in apartments"? Trust me, they don't...unless, of course, there is illegal activity going on in one of the apartments.

Don't you just hate it when policemen are bored? It seems like they were just looking for someone to arrest.

Why isn't this guy allowed to pray or walk or do whatever on a public sidewalk? From what I can tell, he is on public property. Also, don't people have the right to pray on public property? I guess Powell can reads minds and he knows why a stranger is praying. Even if he was praying regarding abortion, what business is it of the police? I just don't get this.. He doesn't appear to be violating laws. I sense some lawsuits coming on.

We pray at a mill in a mixed use area with businesses and residential housing(including single family housing). Some of the neighbors don't like it and have even complained. Before I started,some even called the police(said they were praying the rosary too loud). Anyways, nothing came of it. What I am getting at is a person's first amendment rights don't go out the door if there are residences nearby. As long as we are not breaking any laws,we can do our thing.

pip, you said it:]

Signs of the times........no one should be surprised.

his man!!!!!!!! you have been missed!

Jasper,
Re: the quote of the day..

mark my words...PP will be "reducing" the amount of mills if this holds true..however, they will be jumping aboard the "Euthanasia train" instead.

I wonder if the baby was brought up on any charges.

Carrie,

I've often reminded people that convicts aren't in jail for praying too loudly in church. I guess I was only wrong about the location of where they may have been arrested.
Furthermore, I wish police were this vigilant about car stereos blasting profanity and offensive lyrics at a decibal level that could awaken the dead.

PIP,

How nice for the police and residents of Aurora that police can be this bored.

Hi Jill, do you know if we attained the minimum dollar amount required to get the Thomas More Society legal team started to perhaps close down this particular PP? If we have not, do you know how far off we are from goal?
Blessings to you and your prolife bloggers. :)

Heather,

I know the only thing strikes more terror in my soul than people praying is a baby carriage, especially with a baby in it.

Mary, the thing that really strikes terror in my soul is a baby carriage with a baby in it who is cooing too loud. If that baby was cooing, I hope they bring the little one up on a distrubing the peace charge. If he had a full diaper,the police should charge him with improper disposal of toxic waste.

Carrie,

Now I remember the difference! Offensive lyrics and profanity are considered art forms and constitutionally protected speech.
I was under the mistaken impression that freedom of religion existed in the constitution as well and that prayer was also considered constitutionally protected speech. Live and learn.

Mary, I thought prayer was protected speech too. You live and you learn. I think that I'll bust out a rap with vulgar lyrics tomorrow instead of saying the rosary.

Hmmm, something from the 90's rap group 2 Live Crew.

Mary-

Totally.

I've noticed we all despise the police in our little town--I mean it's very nice we don't have much crime but they can be a royal pain when they just look for something to do.
In St. Louis, I LOVE the police.

Maybe I'll sing an annoying Christmas song like Dominic the Christmas Donkey. Oh wait,the word Christmas is too offensive. Oh well.

'tis the Aurora way!....the BBQ'n PL'ers in CO don't seem to have this problem!

Poor guy. I'd understand if it was private property, but it's not. He had every right to be there quietly praying...(I agree, I'd rather hear verses of the Hail Mary than crude rap lyrics...Soulja Boy comes to mind...do any of you actually KNOW what "supermanning" is??? It's the epitome of disrespect for women, and it's simply horrific that it could be in a song!)

And Jill...where's the pin of which you speak? I don't even see it????

I've seen people walking down the street singing. Maybe next time I'll make a citizen's arrest.

I think they are trying to establish an intimidating presence to discourage the PLer's. A bully has to beat-up only one person to cement his reputation as a bad guy. The Pler's are going to have to take this to court.

Lyssie,
It's the little, tiny white thing on the left collar of his coat. Aurora PD has "superman's vision", too!

One of the officers, (probably Powell) had binoculars...I could just imagine how that one sounded over their radios, "get him, get him, man on sidewalk has baby-feet pin ---get an officer over there now"
"10-4" I'm all over this one...he's got a baby too. He's overstepped his boundries on this one"

Lyssie, AAAAGGGHHH, no way! My pal always plays that "Soulja Boy" when we go out sometimes. I HATE that song..if you could even call it a song. Then we do the "Cupid Shuffle."

Wow, the Aurora PD has bionic vision in addition to being able to read minds.

Gotta LOVE living in Nazi Germany...ooops..I mean Aurora, Illinois.

Lyssie, my pal is black. We share some taste in music but not all. Now, what the heck is supermanning? Dare I ask?

Urgh, Soulja Boy literally has no meaning whatsoever. It literally says NOTHING. Seriously, my friend analyzed the words to the song and realized that the only nearly-coherent statement in that song is the one about "superman that (derogatory term for a woman)". It's terrible.

Unfortunately, I'll have to suffer through it tonight as I'm going clubbin' with my girls (it's usually played once a night). I'll just deal with it and dance to the other songs. :D

Elizabeth, In my state, all of the abortion clinics are set up this way. Large fences, big "NO TRESSPASSING" signs. It's a death camp for sure. Have you ever been to another doctor who had a prison type fence surrounding his/her office?

Heather,

Supermanning is too vulgar to discuss on Jill's blog. She'd have me kicked off the site. Lol.

Lyssie, LOL! in that case I'll ask my friend. I hate how the song always screams "YOU"....Oh I just hate it, and I hate that tin can type beat.

Lyssie, I used to think that it said "super soak that [derogatory term] oops!

I'll warn you, Heather, the action described by supermanning is truly heinous and disrespectful....brace yourself. lol. When I first heard what it meant, I just sat there with my mouth opened in a look of shock. >:/

Heather, Definitely NOT...it's ridiculous...but my mom drove by the Aurora PP today and said somebody was standing directly under that sign holding a graphic abortion picture. Awesome. If I didn't have a daughter who needs me to take care of her and not be in jail, I would be out there right next to him.

And Lyssie, that song IS ridiculous. How some people can advocate that kind of stuff in a song and then be shocked when derogatory statements are made in general is beyond me. Maybe if people didn't make it okay by putting it in a freaking song, nobody would talk like that.

Okay. I shall do so.

Lyssie, I have a biology question for you!!!!

My boyfriend listens to rap, and I wouldn't mind it so much if I could actually understand what they were saying. I really can't decipher the words. I feel stupid because he'll hear a really clever rap lyric and go "OHHH, NO HE DIDN'T", while I'll just sit there stumped and feeling dumber by the second. I just don't have an ear for rap. *sigh*

But as incoherent as that Soulja Boy song is, I heard "superman that (bleep)" loud and clear...I assumed it was something derogatory, but I had no idea how bad it was. So gross.

Have at it, Elizabeth. Ask away. :D (brb...my brother and I have to do some chores for our mom, but I'll be back asap to answer). :D

Elizabeth, I know what you mean. My state is very "jail happy." I'm sad to say that protesting is scarce here.

Okay, so one of my essay questions for bio is: Give an example of a nonliving system that demonstrates homeostasis, and what is the mechanism that maintains that system that you've chosen? There is an example of a thermostat that regulates itself by the temp of the room in my book but we aren't allowed to use that one. Got any ideas?

The good news is that another abortion clinic was closed down a little over a year ago here. Why? Because of a pompous, arrogant abortionist who butchered a patient. She lived, but her baby died. The clinic was indeed right in the center of the ghetto.

I wonder how many people and babies have to die for people to realize that these places do not help anyone.

Elizabeth, so the thermostat was used as an example due to the fact that it shuts itself off when the temperature reaches a certain level, and turns back on when the temperature drops? Hmm....that's a good question. Let me think for a few minutes. Climate control would be too similar an example...so I don't think you can use that...

I was perhaps thinking a computer system that tracks supply and demand, and records the sales of items as well as those still left in stock (like regulation systems in place in living cells, such as regulation of genes and enzymes)...where a certain product would be overbought (much like depletion of necessary chemicals in cells), and it would automatically send a message to the warehouse to send more of the product to restock the shelves (like active regulation in a human body sending signals to tell a tired person to sleep or a hungry person to eat to replenish needed stores of energy). This would maintain a constant supply of the product on the shelf in the store (like maintaining homeostasis).

I don't know if that's a good example of non-living homeostasis, but I'm still thinking.

I feel your pain, Elizabeth (sort of). I'm supposed to be online looking for information to rewrite parts of my biology lab and to work on a biology lab group project. It's on enzymes. Fun fun. :D

Plus I have other work to do. Studying for two midterms among them. Bleh. Poo.

Elizabeth, this abortionist didn't have any emergency transfer agreements with surrounding hospitals. He botched an abortion on a lady, and his 911 call was released. He screamed "I can't see what I'm doing. She's bleeding, and I want her out of my office NOW!"..This sparked an investigation. His office staff wasn't even recording vital signs. They found too many violations, and they told him to hit the road.

The mechanism of the system could be the amount of the product left on the shelves....overstocked shelves would tell the computer to send a message to the warehouse to stop new shipments of the product, where an undersupply could cause the computer to send a message to the warehouse to ship more. This would maintain homeostasis in the store of the necessary product.

NO!!! MY BROTHER IS PLAYING SOULJA BOY!!!!! *DIES*

Lyssie,

I read an example of anti-lock brakes...that could work I don't know I will have to read some more on it.

Heather and Lyssie,

I can remember when "The Lemon Song" by Led Zeppelin caused jaws to drop. It would be a nursery rhyme by today's standards.
Also, on reruns of "I Love Lucy" they printed facts about the different episodes. "Pregnant" could not be used only "expecting a baby". There was serious concern over how the audience would react to a pregnant Lucy, I mean, she and Ricky didn't even sleep together much less do THAT! A priest, minister, and rabbi reviewed all the scripts during Lucy's pregnancy to make sure they would be acceptable for family viewing.

Elizabeth,

Would the relationship of the sun to the earth be an example? How it maintains life but is not itself a living entity. Just a guess on my part.

See, what you have to do is completely ignore the terrible, terrible lyrics in most hip-hop, and just enjoy the beat. That's the only thing it's got going for it, really. And of course, brilliant people like Saul Williams.

Elizabeth,
That sounds like a good system, too...but I'm not quite sure how anti-lock brakes work. :D
I've never liked physics, lol.

Mary, It's supposed to be a nonliving system like a thermostat but thank you for the suggestion.

Lyssie,

I don't know how anti-lock brakes work either haha..so now I have to figure that out.

What about cruise control?

Elizabeth,

You're welcome. I thought the sun would be considered non-living, just as the moon is. I understand the moon controls ocean tides.

AB Laura, somebody already got cruise-control soo I want to original haha but thank you. I think that I am going to go with a dam on this one..because dams allow water to flow normally..except in the case of there being too much water and then the dam closes.

Powell defended the police enforcement.

"If he's praying here, he's here because of the building. He can pray at home or anywhere," he said.

I will be at the City Council meeting this week to remind the Police Chief, and the City Council, that anywhere is inclusive of the public sidewalk across the street from PP. If need be, I will draw him, and Aurora PD's media relations spokesman --who was also at the protest--a venn diagram to illustrate this.

Elizabeth,
Dam --that's a good idea!

Charles,
Great idea! However, I think that venn diagrams are against the law at City Council meetings...but only legal if you use red ink!!!

AB Laura,

Thanks my mom gave it to me! Haha Thank God for mom's!

Haha, that is a good idea...I think mine got too involved....most of my idea pertained to enzyme regulation (a form of intracellular homeostasis, wherein enzyme levels are regulated by several components, keeping the cell at an even level compatible with life...in essence, homeostasis). Damn my bio lab report and group project. Damn enzymes!

Haha, at least we have Jill's site to distract us from homeostasis Lyssie!

Urgh....

Must....do....work....before....clubbin....

Ah, forget it, I've got all day tomorrow and there are just too many fun things going on right now (like making turkey soup and playing video games). :D

Hey Elizabeth,

there are all sorts of control mechanisms many use physics principles, like: heat expansion of metals ... the room thermostat is one ... a similar event is used to heat the oven and even the thermostat you shove into a turkey. This is also used on irons for ironing clothes and to maintain a level of 'hot' for your hot-water.

a smoke detector uses a homeostatic principle to 'fire' when there is too much smoke. Some chemicals will actually change color depending on the acidity. Mary's example of the sun is very good. Depending on the amount of sunlight, some electric circuits and some flowers will open and lack-of-sunlight triggers dormancy.

hope these trigger some ideas

Well guys, there are limits on rights.

Every time you leave a major store, you are being searched. Every time you enter a school, you essentially have no rights.

And if the state/federal government has a compelling interest, they CAN infringe on your rights. One need only look at history to see that precedent, and current laws approved by various state legislatures. If the state has a compelling interest, and the courts agree, than those constitutional rights can be infringed upon. Free speech being and search and seizure seem to be the ones that fluctuate most often, and are often contested.

In this case, the state could claim it has the compelling interest of protecting its citizens from undue stree for exercising their own rights, and for even simply getting medical care.

stree should be stress

Dan,

You wrote,

"Well guys, there are limits on rights."

Holding signs doesn't keep people from going to PP, therefore, it is an unnecessary infringement.

Further, as you say, "Well guys, there are limits on rights." I would agree to that in the case of a pregnant woman whose right to choose ends after she is pregnant. Before she gets pregnant she has every right to choose to avoid pregnancy. The community has a right to protect her child's right to life and that is a fair limit on her rights.

Dan,

The man was standing there with his infant in a stroller praying. Who was he physically stopping from doing anything?
One can find it very stressful to enter a business that's being picketted by strikers. Do we outlaw strikers?

Dan,

You wrote,

Every time you leave a major store, you are being searched. Every time you enter a school, you essentially have no rights.

Sorry, but these statements are patently false. I go to stores and am not searched. I have worked in public education for years, and students, teachers and visitors all have rights. I have sat through many a boring hour of staff inservices detailing those rights.

This is incredibly offensive, Jill.

First of all, let me start by saying that I am pro-life, so you cannot blame my views that I am about to express on any dissenting opinion.

As a Jew whose grandmother is a Holocaust survivor, I am always horribly offended by the juxtaposition of abortion and the Holocaust! I agree that it is RIDICULOUS that these people are not allowed to protest abortion (is that not your right?), but to call the police of Aurora the "gestapo" and for Elizabeth to call Aurora "Nazi Germany" is inaccurate and offensive.

None of the police of Aurora are arresting people because of their faith (let me finish) and then brutalizing, torturing, or killing them, as the Gestapo did to the Jews (and others). Furthermore, no one is actively seeking unborn babies to kill and torture. Granted, unborn babies are being killed and tortured but not because of any oppressive hatred towards them. I pity women who have had abortions, and I believe in my heart that it must have been hard for most of them to kill their child, but I know that they will have to live with that awful decision and one day they will come to see the errors of their ways.

I believe in your cause, Jill, and I am so happy to see all you are doing for the unborn in the States, and I have thorougly enjoyed reading your blog from the sidelines, but please do not compare the Holocaust and abortion. They are both terrible, but they are not the same.

Rebecca,

With all respect to your grandmother and all victims of the Holocaust, I think the comparison is that Hitler got rid of his unwanted and we get rid of ours. I see the Holocaust, and all acts of genocide and the disposal of the unwanted, born or unborn, as being the result of the same mentality. Disopose of certain "undesirable" individuals in society and life will be blissful. "They" are the cause of all problems.
Slavery, brutality, and genocide have been "justified" throughout history in this manner. The Holocaust was one example, abortion is another.

Mary:

I partially agree with you. And I would fully agree with you if there were people going around in the streets, kidnapping pregnant mothers to abort their babies.

I do see parallels between the two, but I stand firm in my stance that they are not quite comparable. Aside from that, I don't think that the mentality is that babies as a whole are "undesirables" and must be eliminated. Just certain unwanted ones--whereas it was all Jews, all gypsies, etc, who were targeted in the Holocaust. All Muslims in the Crusades. All Tutsis in Rwanda. All the Chirstians in Rome. If it were the same, then all babies, born or unborn, would be actively sought for and destroyed. Instead they are passively awaited at abortion clinics where women are frightened and taken advantage of.

anti-lock brakes? after doing many brake jobs:

When your wheels lock up on wet and slippery roads or during a studden stop, you may lose traction and control, causing your vehicle to spin. Antilock brakes keep your wheels from locking up, ABS works with your regular braking system by automatically pumping them on/off , so your car maintains directional control if you can’t make a complete stop in time.

ABS automatically changes the brake fluid pressure at each wheel to maintain good brake performance—just short of locking up the wheels. There is an electronic control unit that regulates the brake fluid pressure in response to changing road conditions.

"Every time you leave a major store, you are being searched. Every time you enter a school, you essentially have no rights."

Remember that a president (was it LBJ?) said that symbolic free speech should still be upheld in schools. The black armbands, remember? So, while its more restricted there are still rights.

PIP (from her web-page): "In the past, "conservatives" were people who supported slavery, segregation, gender discrimination, anti-sodomy laws, and opposed any kind of social safety network. Because that's what conservatism is: opposition to progress."

baloney on the slavery and segregation part.

Well, as a member of the press, there's nothing I believe in more passionately than freedom of speech.

Pro-lifers have every right to protest in front of PP. I don't like ugly signs or people shouting, but I feel that way about any protest, honestly.

However, as much as I believe in the right to protest, the right to say what you mean, the right to pray and believe in whatever you want, police will still be present. They've been present at every protest I've ever reported on, and they will always harass at least one person.

Sorry, but that's how it goes. I don't want it to be that way, but for the most part they just want things to be peaceful. They get concerned that things will get out of hand and they'll have extra paperwork at the end of the night.

Have some respect for the men and women who are trying to keep your streets safe, will you? They don't have an easy job, and people stirring conflicts don't make it easier.

And Rebecca,

Thank you for being the first person to agree with me that abortion and the holocaust should not be compared.

Rebecca,

What I think is comparable in all instances you mention and others is the dehumanizing and blaming of a particular group of people for society's problems.
This was certainly the case in Nazi Germany, has been the case in other socieities where certain groups of people were targetted(you give many excellent examples), and was the case here in the US when the unborn were targetted. How was abortion "justified"? The unborn weren't quite human, they were to blame for society's evils, and if they were eliminated then society's problems would be solved. Maybe it wasn't all the unborn, but rather the inconvenient and the unwanted unborn. So far its been around 40 million. That's a lot of inconvenient and unwanted lives disposed of.
My point Rebecca is that when a society wants to dispose of certain "undesirble" members, it dehumanizes them, scapegoats them, and promises a better society without them. People's fears and prejudices are milked for all they are worth. This was certainly true of Nazi Germany, and was how abortion came to be accepted in this country. I see this as part of a continuum, and I in no way trivalize the Holocaust or any other genocide. I take tremendous pride in the fact my father and other male members of my family fought to bring an end to the evil that was Hitler.

Jasper -- it's easy to forget that Republicans were once the radica, liberal-minded ones, isn't it? ;) Every party flips sides every few decades or so.

In fact, I think conservatives and liberals have a lot of similar ideals deep down, but alas! We'd rather argue. C'est la vie.

Rebecca,

I forgot to put in my post that Hitler did not dispose of all Germans, just those he deemed inconvenient and unwanted. Likewise we do not dispose of all unborn, just those considered inconvenient and unwanted.

Oh, how we forget our American history...

We didn't enter WWII because we wanted to stop the Holocaust. No no, we let that go on for what, four years until we decided to do something because JAPAN bombed us? We weren't doing anything about Nazi Germany. They were just on the same side as the guys we got mad at.

Let's not look at ourselves as saviors. We looked the other way just as long as we could.

Edyt,

If you check history, Republicans fought for the rights of freed blacks while Democrats fought to keep them "in their places". The KKK was formed as the terrorist arm of southern Democrats.
The Civil and Voting Rights Acts passed because of the political pull of Lyndon Johnson, and the help of congressional Republicans.

You're certainly right about the definitions of liberal and conservative flipping time and again.

Thanks, Mary. I'm aware.

Personally, I don't identify with any party. My mother's a Republican and my father's a Libertarian, and I feel like I can agree with pretty much any party, depending on the issue.

So I think the bickering is just petty. Eh.

Edyt,

Did you ever see the movie "Voyage of the Damned"? It was about a cruiseship full of German Jews who were allowed to leave Nazi Germany. The boat docked in Cuba but the Jews were denied admission. What is particularly shameful to this country is that they were also denied admission to the US after leaving Cuba! Tell me this wasn't planned out ahead of time. Franklin Roosevelt even sent the coast guard to make certain none of the Jews jumped ship. They had no other option but to return to Germany and you'll never convince me FDR didn't have a clue as to what would happen to them. Why wouldn't he let a thousand or so people enter the US when he knew persecution and certain death awaited them in Germany?

Edyt,

I remain staunchly independent and always have. I have always voted strictly for the candidate and will continue to do so.
I just mentioned the history since so many people are unaware. I cannot understand why the Democrats have been portrayed as the heroes of equal rights for black Americans, given their history.

Edyt said,
"Have some respect for the men and women who are trying to keep your streets safe, will you? They don't have an easy job, and people stirring conflicts don't make it easier."

Although you had me at the beginning of your post, you lost me at this part, because I just kept picturing the scene a the officer "charged over to the sidewalk" to "care of the man with baby in stroller problem". What on earth was this officer thinking, or who on earth told him to do so? Do you really think that this man was "stirring a conflict" by walking his baby while praying? I'm kindof lost here, so please, help me out! Like I said, I was totally with you at the beginning of your post!

I have no idea. Why did we lock thousands of Japanese people in our own less-than-lovely concentration camps?

I can't explain why history happened. I just know there's a lot more dirty secrets buried under our textbooks than people really realize.

In fact, I never really understood why America was the way it was until taking an AP European history class in high school. Man, learning about Europe really opened my eyes to what made America what it became.

Hitler was Anti-Choice. He didn't want some women to have abortions, and he didn't want some women to continue pregnancies. In both cases he was against the women themselves making their own choice.

Edyt - I see a lot of good in the Libertarian ideals.

Doug

AB, I'm not saying what they did was right, but a lot of police officers deal with stuff they really shouldn't have to, so sometimes they just go on power-trips and try to show muscle to make sure nothing bad happens. Next to gangs, protests and huge concerts are usually the next biggest place for violence to happen.

Doug,

So do I, but I try to make sure it's because I really believe it and not because I adore my father. :)

Note the commonality language between the Nazi positions and the claims of abortionists and today's "pro-choice" supporters. In Nazi Germany, the killing of Jews was not against the law, the killing centers were "medical centers" that the killers were "doctors" and the killing was done in the name of promoting "health." In pro-choice America, the killing of babies is not against the law, the killing is done at "medical clinics", the killers are "doctors" and abortion is called a woman's "health" issue.

In America's death camps the victim is usually called a "fetus," but they have also been called "unseen infections," "a sexually transmitted disease" and "a cancerous growth". Abortion supporters have stated that abortion is the "preferred treatment" for "unwanted pregnancy: the number two sexually transmitted disease" and "an aborted baby is just garbage."

Abortion is commonly referred to as a mere "procedure" or "minor surgical operation" and abortionists are often called "service providers." Compare this to the Nazi death squads called "special service groups". The IRS lists Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinic operators as "charitable organizations" engaged in "promoting health." Compare this to the official name of the Nazi organization for implementing euthanasia, the "Charitable Foundation for Institutional Care."

Edyt,

The imprisonment of Japanese Americans was certainly despicable and based on little more than racial prejudice and war hysteria. This too was done on the order of FDR.

The history of the world and every race of man since man first breathed(I will not get into any theological debates on this!) has been one of the powerful preying on the weak, slavery, brutality, and genocide. People duked it out and the best man won. Many so-called "indigenous" people simply disposed of previous inhabitants and never mentioned them.
I think the world always has been and still is full of dirty little secrets.

Mary:

Germans weren't Hitler's target--Jews were.

Also, the unborn are not blamed for society's evils. And no one is promising a better society without children. The promotion is this "choice," this "bodily autonomy"--not a childless future.

Edyt,
As a resident of Aurora, I've had a few situations where I had to call upon the "fine men in blue"...it took over 1/2 hour for them to respond to the call...not once, not twice...but several times...I was in a car accident (yet another occasion) 4 cars were involved...again, over 1/2 hour for the police to come. By that time, the drunken man (because he passed out at the wheel and caused the accident) came to and took off.
So, I guess I'm biased in my opinion of Aurora officers...well over 90 days, no incidents...but approaching a man & baby and concern over what he's praying about...even the Chief's comments boggled my mind.
I surely don't paint all officers this way, but I'm definately not too happy with "Aurora's finest".

Jasper - but the major difference is that abortion is not forced.

I don't care what anyone says about being "pushed" to do it. People get pushed in both ways, and it's still a tough decision. But the fact is - it remains a decision, and it remains the decision of the woman carrying the fetus/baby/child (I don't care about terminology obviously, that's beyond the point).

Germans, including Jews, were not given a choice. Which is what separates what is going on today (abortion) with what happened then (genocide). Genocide is the systematic destruction of a certain group of people. No one out here wants to kill all the unborn and no one here is forcing every pregnant woman to abort her child.

That's a BIG difference. Too big of a difference to overlook.

Doug,

I think it would be more accurate to say Hitler was racist and viewed certain women as fit to reproduce and others as not.
Nor was he "anti-choice" as so many women were only too happy to produce as many babies as possible and did so willingly. These women were greatly honored by Nazi society. Of course these women were of the "master race".

When right-to-lifers compare abortion to the German Nazi Holocaust, they embarrass themselves.

AB,

Fair enough, I don't live in Aurora so I really have no right to comment on the cops there. Maybe they are just being jerks. Who knows?

Doug,
Cute cartoon! Those darned, lying turkeys!
:)

Edyt,
And who knows, maybe one will save my life tomorrow & my attitude will change...

SOMG:

In my months of reading Jill's blog, I never though I would find myself agreeing with you, but in this I do. I wish pro-lifers would stop this juxtaposition--I feel it hurts the cause more than helps it.

"but the major difference is that abortion is not forced."

on the innocent unborn baby it is.

no trial
no justice

Jill, I dislike how you only paste certain parts of the article in order to skew people's viewpoints.

From the first part of the article:

About 200 anti-abortion activists peacefully protested outside the Planned Parenthood clinic in Aurora Saturday, days after tension swelled at Tuesday night's City Council meeting when protesters criticized police for being too aggressive.

Before the protest, Aurora police said they would increase their presence by the clinic and vowed to arrest protesters who they said violated city ordinances dealing with picketing.

Police Chief William Powell defended his officers at Tuesday's meeting, calling them "lenient" and saying they are often met with resistance and verbal assaults when trying to get protesters to comply with the law.

"I think that some people feel that we're against them demonstrating here, but that is not the case," said Powell. "We have to be mindful of everyone's rights. We're especially concerned with the rights of citizens."

So they're often met with resistance and verbal assaults? Well, that might explain why they would be a little rougher. Doesn't excuse it, but it certainly explains it.

I never put much thought into the "correctiveness" of the comparison, but the ideals of PP, from its founder Margaret Sanger, are quite in line with Hitler's ideals...so, maybe this is where the comparison comes from? It is quite eerie, acutally!

Jasper,

You deliberately ignored the point I was making about how abortion was forced upon women.

I wasn't making a statement about the unborn at all. I was simply stating that here in America, women are allowed to choose whether they want an abortion or to keep the child, while during the Holocaust they had no options whatsoever.

Even adults had no right to trial. No justice.

"No one out here wants to kill all the unborn and no one here is forcing every pregnant woman to abort her child."

again, you're wrong. You ARE forcing the unborn baby to stabbed have his/her limbs ripped apart or posioned to death.

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/Enlargement.cfm?ID=38

Edyt,

"Police Chief William Powell defended his officers at Tuesday's meeting, calling them "lenient" and saying they are often met with resistance and verbal assaults when trying to get protesters to comply with the law."

When did such a thing ever happen? Funny how this was never in the papers...and I'm sure if it really happened, it would be! My opinion...he's lying....

Rebecca,

I well remember the early days of the abortion movement and indeed our society was going to be a better place once the "unwanted" unborn were eliminated. There would be no more child abuse, poverty, illegitimacy, or welfare dependency, to name just a few. Only the planned, perfect, and wanted would walk this earth. Prejudice against Catholics was deliberately promoted by the leaders of the abortion movement as a means of unifying abortion supporters around a common enemy. Sound familiar?

I know not all Germans were targetted, only the inconvenient and unwanted, and that certainly included Jews. Just as not all the unborn are targetted, just the inconvenient and unwanted.

In an effort to get FDA approval of RU-486, one of the original lawyers in the Roe v Wade case, Ron Weddington, wrote to then president elect Bill Clinton(1992 or 1996) and encouraged the use of abortion "to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy, and poor segment of our country".
To me that sounds like eliminating society's problems by eliminating certain unborn babies, as well as incredibly elitist.

how about this little girl, was she not forced to into death? did she volunteer?

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/Enlargement.cfm?ID=102

AB, what do you mean? I took that out of the same article Jill posted. So it was in the Chicago Tribune.

Jasper, again, you're misunderstanding my point. Yes, the child/fetus/baby/whatever is being forced to die. But THE MOTHER is not being forced at all. Which is the point I am making. Again, I'm not making a statement about the unborn. I'm talking about women here, who, BTW, happen to be involved in the process of childmaking.

and,

""I think that some people feel that we're against them demonstrating here, but that is not the case," said Powell. "We have to be mindful of everyone's rights. We're especially concerned with the rights of citizens."

Exactly what rights of citizens are being infringed upon by these peaceful protests? Again, not ONE arrest & not one incident...the police have also stated how peaceful these protests are. The only problems that protestors ever encountered, were those of pro-choicers...I can name at least five incidents...the police were called and reports were made.

Edyt,

I understand what you're saying, but whats your point? Even if the women is not being forced, the unborn is, so the analogy stands.

eh, maybe the police are just a bit aggitated because they're working without a contract...who knows.

Edyt,
AB, what do you mean? I took that out of the same article Jill posted. So it was in the Chicago Tribune.

I meant the part about the resistance (what resistance? )and verbal assaults (huh?)

My point, was why after the criticism following the "baby incident" did Powell bring this up? Like I said...when did this ever happen?

No, your analogy no longer works. Like I said, genocide is the deliberate, systematic destruction of a certain group of people. This is not something that can be done by one person (or even two - the abortionist included), but must be planned out by a large group. And like I said, there is no large group trying to force people to kill other people or the unborn. It is a choice by ONE person whether that happens or not.

Exactly, Edyt - there are more and more pregnancies continued all the time in the world - the population is growing fast and the number of continued pregnancies is greater than ever. "Genocide" is ludicrous hype.

Doug

I don't know when it ever happened. The journalist isn't asserting that it did happen. If you notice, it's a quote.

So let me explain a few things about journalism.

A) The police will never tell journalists about incidents that happen unless journalists ask for it. Even then they'll avoid answering directly. So the incident(s) could have happened or it/they could not have happened.

B) The reason the journalist didn't say it did happen is because she doesn't have proof. Being objective, she just tried to say what happened through what people said or told her. If you notice, she has talked to both parties about the alleged incidents and clarified that no arrests were made, and that it was a peaceful protest.

I mean, you can't really say whether it happened or not... so... yeah, there's a likely chance Powell was saying that to save face, but who knows?

Even so, no one was sytematically killing off the unborn. No one was doing it with hate towards them and with purpose of purging the earth of some uncleanliness.

That was to Mary. My apologies.

Rebecca,

I have to differ. The original intent was to prevent the birth of the disabled, the unwanted, the inconvenient. Only the planned, perfect, and wanted would live. If you read my quote by Ron Weddington you will see little has changed. I believe the number in this country is about 3,000/day, someone correct me if I'm wrong, and that sounds pretty systematic to me.
What difference does it make why any people are killed in mass, whether it be the victims of the Holocaust,or the mass slaughter of the Cambodians
the Rwandan Tutsis, the people of Darfur or the unborn? People have been and are now disposed of for whatever reason a more powerful entity sees fit. As I said it is all part of a continuum. The victims are dehumanized, scapegoated, and their elimination seen as somehow bettering society.

"All right, Chief, take'em away. I'm gonna go home and sleep with my wife. *wink*"
(Clue)

Night all.

eeek..my one sentence comment sparked some controversy I see. Glad to know. I was gone for God know's how many hours answering crazy intricate biology questions so I missed all the madness.

Could you speak up for yourself under the reign of Hitler? Could you say anything against him? No. Just like when we here in Aurora are trying to stand up for something and a man and his infant are near freaking arrested by our police. Not that I'm knocking them..I have tons of respect..and I acknowledge that they may just be forced by higher authority to act the way they are..but come on. A man walking a BABY STROLLER! You say it's not comparable but really...Hitler didn't just wake up and start killing people one day..he had to manipulate them first and get them to follow him. It's a slow process..only taking away a few personal rights...then..nobody is allowed to say anything against him...and then..well you know how it all went down..

I'm telling ya...taking away constitutional rights is a slippery slope folks.

Okay, before I pass out..I'm going to bed. :)

I have to say I agree that it is a legitimate analogy. You have some very valid points though, Rebecca. I don't think it's meant to trivialize the holocaust, as Mary said, but instead it is to wake people up to the seriousness of what is happening to the unborn. There certainly aren't parallels for every aspect of both events, but the similarities are enough to make it a suitable comparison. You have every right to defend the truth of what happened during the holocaust from being minimized, though, Rebecca. We should all be cautious of this, especially in a world where some would claim the holocaust never happened.

To the original thread topic, I have only to say, "Welcome to the world you brought about by voting for George Bush."

Last year I attended a protest when Bush was in town. We were assigned a "designated protest area," conveniently placed so that he would never see us. Anyone who even looked like they were associated with the protesters was directed to the designated area. This has happened for several years at countless Bush appearances around the country.

It's amazing that Aurora officials could spot like hawks a pro-lifer wearing a 1" pin...

It's not an area swarming with pedestrians. If he was loitering there, observing the protest, then it was not unreasonable of the police to question whether he was involved or not, especially given the above precedent. People have been ejected from public (not private) presidential appearances for wearing democratic t-shirts and the like. Given their and my experiences, I have little sympathy for your hapless husband and baby or the limits placed on where you can protest.

Edyt, 11:20p, said: "Jill, I dislike how you only paste certain parts of the article in order to skew people's viewpoints. From the first part of the article...."

Edyt, my blog post was specifically on the new signs on Oakhurst and police harrassment of the pro-life man walking with his baby on Oakhurst. The post was not on the pro-life picket being held that day. I only mentioned it to give reference.

I do not ever cut and paste articles to make them say what I want them to say.

To perhaps discuss minutiae for a moment, or overexplain, I try to focus each post on a specific topic or nuance of the pro-life issue. One problem I see with some blogs is the posters go on and on, and no one these days reads on and on.

So I focus, and then I edit until it hurts. I cut every single extra word I can find.

Further, the font I've chosen for you to read is Georgia 12 point, which is welcoming to the eye but large, adding to my need to edit.

All of that was to explain why I didn't include the portion of the article you questioned.

_____

As for complaints about comparing abortion to the Holocaust, it really should be pro-lifers complaining that I am minimalizing. 5.7 million Jews were killed (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/bldied.htm).

To date, ~900 million babies have been killed worldwide by abortion in the last decade according to Guttmacher, 50 million of those in the U.S.

There really is no comparison, but the Holocaust is the best we have to try to convey the horror.

Edyt,

you wrote:

" We looked the other way just as long as we could."

Posted by: Edyt at November 23, 2007 10:35 PM

Unfortunately humans often prefer to look away rather than help. That is why, again unfortunately, people who want to call attention to injustice have to be loud and hold ugly signs or the media and everyone else will look the other way. It is true for bra burners, tree huggers, animal lovers, prolifers etc. Articulate, polite folks just don't appeal to the mass media. Remember the song "Dirty Laundry"?

Ray, 1:51am

This hardly originated with Bush. Its a security measure and I recall it being applied to previous presidential visits. If I remember correctly, when our city had a visit from Bill Clinton, the "designated areas" were numerous.
I recall Bill Clinton speaking at a professional convention I was attending and it was made very clear that no protest of any kind would be tolerated, and he wasn't even president.
I wonder if "designated areas" for protest are permitted in Cuba or North Korea.

Hippie 8:11am

How true.

I think the issue about protest boils down to one factor, "who's ox is being gored?"
Protest is fine so long as I like the reason you're doing it and agree with your cause. Its another story all together if I don't.

Ray, 1:51am

One more point. When President Bush visited our city protesters and their signs lined the motorcade route, in full few of the president as he rode by.

Let's not forget, Hitler didn't only exterminate Jews.

So many responses, so little time. Sorry if I miss one of you, just give me a gnetle nudge towards the post and Ill get to it.

Hippie, when you pass through those detectors at the entrances/exits of stores, that constitutes a legal search as they are using a device "not readily available to the public", as does checking receipts and items at the door. The latter I think (correct me if I'm wrong) may be challenged in court sometime soon, at least from what I've heard.

Also, as for the rights in schools, they are severely limited. Anything can be found to be "disruptive to the educational process" and deemed unfit for schools. As for what is considered disruptive it is up to the faculty and staff of the school to decide what constitutes disruptive. Even if a kid does not go to school, if he does something deemed inappropriate during school hours, the school can punish him/her for it (bong hits for Jesus anyone?).

pip, I did say essentially, however if those armbands were found to "disrupt the educational process", they could be banned from the school. Stopping this "disruption" is the reason for dress codes in schools and limits on speech/expression on both the part of students and teachers. And of course, the final say ends up with the principal as to what is disruptive, or what is not.

Mary, I was not referring to that individual case, but the idea behind the protest buffer zones.

Heather,

What isn't well known is that gas chambers were exterminating "undesirables" in state hospitals some time before the Nazis came to power and was initiated by German doctors.
The Nazis, when they did come to power with their "master race" mentality certainly had no issue with this.

One account I read was of a trainload of Dutch mental patients arriving at Auschwitz. State hospitals in Nazi occupied countries apparently were emptied out as well. The nurses had been arrested and transported with their patients and against all odds were doing everything they could to comfort and assist them. One of the officers at Auschwitz was very impressed with the nurses and told his commanding officer how the nurses would be such an asset to the camp.
The commanding officer was adamant, the nurses were to go to the gas chambers with their patients. NO amount of pleading or reasoning on the part of the junior officer would change his commanding officer's mind. Even as they entered the "showers" the nurses continued to offer what assistance they could to their patients.

Dan,

I have seen these, and like I said protest buffer zones did not originate with Bush. The idea behind them is security, not stifling protest. Also, people lined the motorcade route in our city and Bush clearly saw the signs. People who wanted to get their message across badly enough were very well able to.

Im FOR the buffer zones, lol.

MA passed one, I think last month, increasing the buffer zone distance due to some cases of violence and harassment.

It isn't all security, but a significant portion is. It is also a way of trying to balance rights, though no matter what the state does, one side will most likely always cry foul.

Dan,

The discussion began with a man pushing a stroller on a public sidewalk. I can assure you he would be allowed to push the same stroller in a mall, in Macys or in a public school. People do it everyday. If he pushed it past a school, the cops would not be jumping out to see what he was up to. I am just stating the obvious. A man with a stroller would not be required to be in a designated protest area.

"PIP (from her web-page): "In the past, "conservatives" were people who supported slavery, segregation, gender discrimination, anti-sodomy laws, and opposed any kind of social safety network. Because that's what conservatism is: opposition to progress.""
conservatives /= Republicans.

Republicans were liberal back in the day. I don't think anyone argued against that.

Mary, thank you for the post. Yes. There are indeed similarities between the holocaust and abortion. Extermination is the key word.

Thank you pip! Lol, Republicans today are not the same republicans of the past. Today's political parties are nigh incomparable to those of the past, if for no other reason than the issues of the day changing, along with the stances of the American people.

And hippie, I didn't say I agreed with the cop, I certainly think it was overzealous.

Well, Mary, I guess there's no more for either of us to say: you've made your statements and I've made mine. I can't do much more but repeat what I've already said.

I guess my only other complaint is any comparison that goes on saying that any one genocide is worse than another. It doesn't matter how many die: 100 million, 6 million, 2000, 10--every human life is sacred. We are not numbers, we are people.

Rebecca,

You and I definitely agree. Mass murder of any kind is despicable and 1 million people dead is no more acceptable than 3 million, 6 million, or 100 million. One mass murder is not more or less worse than another. As you say, we are all people, not numbers. Again, all my respect to your grandmother and what she endured. Its unfathomable to most of us.

Dan,

The discussion began with a man pushing a stroller on a public sidewalk. I can assure you he would be allowed to push the same stroller in a mall, in Macys or in a public school. People do it everyday. If he pushed it past a school, the cops would not be jumping out to see what he was up to. I am just stating the obvious. A man with a stroller would not be required to be in a designated protest area.

Posted by: hippie at November 24, 2007 1:08 PM
...............................................

A man with a stroller is a person of interest at a potentially dangerous protest site. Vietnam taught us that children can and have been used as weapons of destruction. I'm not sure that the man shouldn't be charged with child abuse for bringing his infant into a potentially dangerous situation. Terrorists have been know to pose as pregnant women with explosives strapped to their mid sections. Who knows what a stroller load of explosives might do. I can't blame cops for being overly cautious. I'd blame them if they weren't.

Sally,

A good one! LOL!!

Sally,

Can you link me to ANY incidences of violence at the Aurora PP? Nope..you can't..because all our protests have been peaceful and will continue to be. Aside from the PCer that shot at a 17 y.o. PL female one night with a BB gun...we have had no violence. A stroller full of explosives? That's quite a stretch here I think.

Yeah. It's like the time I went to the Bush rally dressed in a black burqa and pushing a baby carriage. Those stupid cops kept annoying me. ME!

Laura,

The disguise was brilliant but you really need to blend in more with the crowd, otherwise you might get noticed.

Okay, let me pick the one apart, Sally.

A man with a stroller is a person of interest at a potentially dangerous protest site.
And what makes him a person of interest? Does everyone, male or female, become a person of interest? And what is so dangerous about the protest site? Are all protest sites dangerous?
Vietnam taught us that children can and have been used as weapons of destruction.
Oh, and your examples/eveidnece of this is--what?

I'm not sure that the man shouldn't be charged with child abuse for bringing his infant into a potentially dangerous situation.
If this child was not an infant � where would the line be drawn? (e.g. 1 y.o., 3 y.o., etc.) And again, see questions in the first block?

Terrorists have been know to pose as pregnant women with explosives strapped to their mid sections.
And if we assume your postulate, then should all preganant women be searched everywhere? In malls? Stores? On public sidewalks? If the last set of terrorits were from the middle east, does that give the government rights to search them everywhere? At anytime?

Who knows what a stroller load of explosives might do. I can't blame cops for being overly cautious. I'd blame them if they weren't.
Again, if we assume your postulate, then the officers should have set up a permimiter, for the personal safty of the pro-lifers and the public, and stopped this man, and everyone else, to inspect his storller and mid sections for explosives. And where do we live? Hopfulle we at least have 4 ammendments left in the bill of rights. Hint: illegal search and sizure--4th ammendment.

Please see fallacies; Appeal to Fear, Questionable Cause, Red Herring, Misleading Vividness, and Hasty Generalization--here is a good link. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

A stroller full of explosives is a stretch?

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4955842&nav=0Ra

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=nation_world&id=3514219&ft=exLg

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/03/03/international/i124810S35.DTL

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8263472_ITM

The Transportation Security Administration says all passengers must be subject to stiff screenings because a wheelchair or a baby stroller could be laden with explosives.

Men with baby strollers are especially suspicious because our society isn't quite to the point where men are looked at as fathers.

Regarding conservative and liberal policies. When capitalism was growing, there happened the Irish potato famine. The liberals argued for market forces to set grain prices while conservatives set the grain price low and refused to disclose how much grain was available specifically to discourage profiteering speculators from running up the prices on the starving Irish.

What is labeled conservative or liberal varies with the times.

Ideas need to be weighed on their merits and not simply branded liberal or conservative. I think labeling does everyone a disservice by potentially prejudicing the public.

Sally,

Can you link me to ANY incidences of violence at the Aurora PP? Nope..you can't..because all our protests have been peaceful and will continue to be. Aside from the PCer that shot at a 17 y.o. PL female one night with a BB gun...we have had no violence. A stroller full of explosives? That's quite a stretch here I think.

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 24, 2007 11:48 PM
.................................................................

Elizabeth,
Ever since 911 and the advent of Homeland Security, law enforcement is expected to anticipate all manner of scenarios at all manner of events and gatherings. It may sound paranoid but I believe heightened awareness and precaution is necessary. There really are nut jobs out there Elizabeth that would use all manner of justification for pretending to be PL. (We all know that the wackadoos that murder PC people are not PL.) A wackadoo independent jihadist might use any gathering of people to go meet Allah. I don't find that a stretch at all.

Darn it! That anon was me Elizabeth.

Regarding conservative and liberal policies. When capitalism was growing, there happened the Irish potato famine. The liberals argued for market forces to set grain prices while conservatives set the grain price low and refused to disclose how much grain was available specifically to discourage profiteering speculators from running up the prices on the starving Irish.

What is labeled conservative or liberal varies with the times.

Ideas need to be weighed on their merits and not simply branded liberal or conservative. I think labeling does everyone a disservice by potentially prejudicing the public.

Posted by: hippie at November 25, 2007 2:12 PM
...................................................

I could not agree with you more.

Regarding conservative and liberal policies. When capitalism was growing, there happened the Irish potato famine. The liberals argued for market forces to set grain prices while conservatives set the grain price low and refused to disclose how much grain was available specifically to discourage profiteering speculators from running up the prices on the starving Irish.

What is labeled conservative or liberal varies with the times.

Ideas need to be weighed on their merits and not simply branded liberal or conservative. I think labeling does everyone a disservice by potentially prejudicing the public.

Posted by: hippie at November 25, 2007 2:12 PM
.......................................

Are you referring to British politics? I don't know much about the Irish famine. I did see a show a while back that explained the crop failure. Wishing to make the maximum profit, apparently farmers all chose one particular potato to grow. Without diversity of crops or even potato varieties, the potato blight wiped out entire crops for years causing the lack of food and mass starvation.
I really don't know how the government handled the situation or the impact of it. Care to share more?

Yeah. It's like the time I went to the Bush rally dressed in a black burqa and pushing a baby carriage. Those stupid cops kept annoying me. ME!

Posted by: Laura at November 25, 2007 12:40 AM
...................................

Perhaps it was the Death To Capitalist Pigs buggy bumper sticker?

I posted some links earlier about baby strollers. Who knows what limbo they went to? Mods?

Might as well post them again. >.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-10-07-nysubwaythreat_x.htm

The newly disclosed terror threat against the New York subway has raised the specter of an attack with explosives concealed in a baby stroller and prompted an underground show of force by the nation's largest police department.

Despite the Penn Station problem, most New Yorkers heeded the mayor's business as usual advice. The terrorist threat allegedly involved an attack with explosives concealed in a baby stroller.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/03/03/international/i124810S35.DTL

Police said the three entered the Basilica of the Annunciation Friday evening and set off firecrackers and other small explosives. Church officials said the site was unguarded, and witnesses said the explosives were hidden in a baby stroller.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8263472_ITM

The Transportation Security Administration says all passengers must be subject to stiff screenings because a wheelchair or a baby stroller could be laden with explosives. It cites as justification a 2003 incident in which a .22-caliber pistol was found stashed inside a teddy bear held by a 10-year-old boy in Orlando.

Ray, 1:51am

One more point. When President Bush visited our city protesters and their signs lined the motorcade route, in full few of the president as he rode by.

Posted by: Mary at November 24, 2007 10:39 AM
.................................

The last time that Pres and Mrs were in town, they chose to stay in a hotel on the opposite end of the city from the Air Force Base that they flew in and out of. I 25 was shut down to traffic for them to travel back and forth. Quite an inconvenience to many travelers. One day was during rush hour. What a mess!

I posted some links earlier about baby strollers. Who knows what limbo they went to? Mods?

Posted by: Edyt at November 25, 2007 3:56 PM
......................................................

Why would there be a problem with your links? Could a moderator comment please?

Edyt,
OK, that thought of him MAYBE having something other than a baby in the stroller is ridiculous...I don't know if you've been to the Aurora mill or not, but where he was standing was quite a distance from the mill, on the opposite side of the street, close to the apartments, near the the corner of New York & Oakhurst.
That being said, I could understand the questioning if he were on the sidewalk in the back of the mill, or on the private drive along side the mill, but on that sidewalk? Now there's a stretch!!! Unless, of course, you're thinking that he may have had some type of missle in the stroller that could reach the mill, then, I would understand your train of thought. But, after looking at your links, I don't think you were going there.
And, if that is what the police were thinking, there are TONS of women who push their babies in strollers along the private drive, or along the sidewalk in the back of the mill to go to Dominicks or other stores in the shopping center that ARE NOT being questioned by authorities at ANY time. So with your journalistic skills, really, what's your point?

Sally,

Here is a link regarding the "conservative" British Corn Laws which subsidized the Irish poor and their repeal by "liberals" which caused food prices to rise.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/hunger.htm

Laura, a man pushing a baby stroller with no woman in sight IS suspicious. Hate to tell ya this, but even in this modern society women take on the burden of childcare.

The point is, police are trained to notice suspicious things. A man, pushing a baby stroller, near an abortion clinic ... IS SUSPICIOUS.

The police were doing their job by checking it out, just so that in case there WERE explosives, no one would get hurt inside or around the clinic. I don't find that unreasonable at all.

Sally,

Here is a link regarding the "conservative" British Corn Laws which subsidized the Irish poor and their repeal by "liberals" which caused food prices to rise.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/hunger.htm

Posted by: hippie at November 25, 2007 6:51 PM
.................................................................................

Thanks for the link hippie. Very very interesting reading.

Edyt,
Well, then, I guess they should check every man that walks down the sidewalk pushing a baby stroller. If I were him, maybe I'd sue for discrimination based on your statement. I guess I wasn't specific when I said that women do that there all of the time - I should have said "men and women".

I see your point, but to actually believe that that is what the APD was doing in this particular situation is far-fetched, in my belief, due to the location of the man in the baby stroller and the day they approached him. He is at many city council meetings, with his wife, they bring that baby to every one of them. Trust me...the APD knows him and know that he does indeed have a baby!

Why did they ask him what he was praying about?

(I meant man AND the baby stroller) hee-hee! Now that would have aroused some suspicion!!!

Might as well post them again. >.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-10-07-nysubwaythreat_x.htm

The newly disclosed terror threat against the New York subway has raised the specter of an attack with explosives concealed in a baby stroller and prompted an underground show of force by the nation's largest police department.

Despite the Penn Station problem, most New Yorkers heeded the mayor's business as usual advice. The terrorist threat allegedly involved an attack with explosives concealed in a baby stroller.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/03/03/international/i124810S35.DTL

Police said the three entered the Basilica of the Annunciation Friday evening and set off firecrackers and other small explosives. Church officials said the site was unguarded, and witnesses said the explosives were hidden in a baby stroller.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8263472_ITM

The Transportation Security Administration says all passengers must be subject to stiff screenings because a wheelchair or a baby stroller could be laden with explosives. It cites as justification a 2003 incident in which a .22-caliber pistol was found stashed inside a teddy bear held by a 10-year-old boy in Orlando.

Posted by: Edyt at November 25, 2007 4:04 PM
................................................

Why would these links be censored? Was Jasper's plot foiled when he realized that it already had been thought of? What?

Edyt, Why is it suspicious for a man to push a baby stroller down the sidewalk in a residential neighborhood? WHAT makes that suspicious? I've pushed my daughter's stroller right next to the abortion clinic..and nada. Come on, the police just wanted to bug somebody..they were itching to arrest one of us even though every protest has been peaceful. I appreciate the police and don't even blame them. I blame the corruptness that is the City of Aurora's politics.

If the police inquired about the content of his prayers, they were doing so to discriminate against him. In doing so, they violated his 1st and 14th amendment rights for doing so.

Example: Praying for an end to world hunger is okay, but praying for his wife reaching out to women entering the clinic is not.

In either case, the question regarding the content of his prayers shouldn't have been asked.

Okay Sally, Edyt, et. el.,

If you are bent on having all strollers searched, especially those pushed by fathers, at public gatherings, then where do you draw the line? Rallys? Shopping Malls? Fireworks displays?

If safety was the primary concern, why didn't the police search everyone with a stroller on that day? I was their will my wife and our 4 month older son in a stroller and nobody questioned me. There were perhaps 20, or so, other families that had children in strollers--do you really mean to suggest that the police should have searched all of these?

The statements made, that people who bring their children to the protest site are endangering their children, is an interesting position to take--for a pro-abort. You see, if we agree to your position, that a clinic is a dangerous place to be, as explosives could be detonated, then the city of Aurora, had the right to know, in advance, that a abortion clinic was coming to the area, and to force them to construct their facility in a manner that promotes public safety--not endangering the public. With this, you cannot have this both ways. Either the clinic is dangerous, by the activity that it generates, and no one should be allowed to be there--or it's safe for the public. So, which one is it?

The "baby carriage as possible concealed explosives" argument is something that has in large part come about by our being conditioned to imagine the worse case scenario by incessant media coverage of terrorist situations. Closer to home it is highly unlikely that anyone at the site would even have the thought cross their minds, especially the police who are familiar with the protesters. The truth of the matter is that for the police on duty that particular morning, or for any of the events that have taken place so far, it is some of the easiest and safest duty they will ever see. And for those officers who were on overtime this duty was just frosting on the cake.

The excessive police presence and the harrassment of the man with the stroller was the brainchild of a chief who has had his ego wounded. When he says he and/or other officers suffer "verbal assaults" and are "met with resistance" what is really meant is that someone asked them a question or even dared to challenge them on a point of law. The chief has even said that he has been "abused". The image conjured up by the use of that word could be any number of things, but again it has to be seen in the context of a person that does not like to be questioned on anything. The conduct of the thousands of people showing up for multiple events over three months has been exemplary. There has yet to be a single solitary citation issued which speaks to both the people and the patrol officers.

On the question of the Holocaust, according to dictionary.com the third definition refers to the Holocaust with a capital "H", and the definition immediately following (a small "h") applies to the massive loss of human life by other means, including abortion. One can cite other atrocities conducted by the likes of Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, each of which resulted in the elimination of millions of lives. All are examples of man's inhumanity to man and should not cancel the historical relevance of the others.

Okay Sally, Edyt, et. el.,

If you are bent on having all strollers searched, especially those pushed by fathers, at public gatherings, then where do you draw the line? Rallys? Shopping Malls? Fireworks displays?

If safety was the primary concern, why didn't the police search everyone with a stroller on that day? I was their will my wife and our 4 month older son in a stroller and nobody questioned me. There were perhaps 20, or so, other families that had children in strollers--do you really mean to suggest that the police should have searched all of these?

The statements made, that people who bring their children to the protest site are endangering their children, is an interesting position to take--for a pro-abort. You see, if we agree to your position, that a clinic is a dangerous place to be, as explosives could be detonated, then the city of Aurora, had the right to know, in advance, that a abortion clinic was coming to the area, and to force them to construct their facility in a manner that promotes public safety--not endangering the public. With this, you cannot have this both ways. Either the clinic is dangerous, by the activity that it generates, and no one should be allowed to be there--or it's safe for the public. So, which one is it?
Posted by: Charles at November 25, 2007 7:57 PM

...................................

Where do you draw the line of invasion Chuck? You get authority over my vagina and uterus, the police get authority over your mechanical baby equipment and it's possible contents. Only sounds fair to me.

"but the major difference is that abortion is not forced."

on the innocent unborn baby it is.

no trial
no justice

Hooray for that thought.

STICK to the issue folks. It's THE BABY we're fighting for!!! THIS IS CALLED SANCTITY OF LIFE.

Mary: I think it would be more accurate to say Hitler was racist and viewed certain women as fit to reproduce and others as not.

It's accurate, sure, but not more accurate. Both are correct.
......

Nor was he "anti-choice" as so many women were only too happy to produce as many babies as possible and did so willingly. These women were greatly honored by Nazi society. Of course these women were of the "master race".

Oh yeah, the old boy was still anti-choice - in no way did he want those women having abortions.

They need the Georgia abortion picture-truck to do the rounds in Aurora ,permanently.

Doug,

The point is these women were not being forced to have children, and had they practiced birth control or aborted, no one would have stopped them. They were highly honored because they had these children by their own choice. I believe the minimum number was 10 in order to receive an honor.
I understand women also volunteered to be coupled with "Aryan" men and produce children.
Hitler certainly did not oppose abortion.

Doug,

Wouldn't you agree that, given the above
mentioned concerning "Aryan" women, that Hitler was pro-choice as well as pro-abortion?

Mary, I don't think Hitler was pro-choice for Aryan women - in no way did he want them having abortions.

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Doug,

Whatever Hitler wanted, these women had these babies by choice. He did not force them to. The women who chose to have as many "Aryan" babies as possible would however enjoy positions of high honor in Nazi society, certainly a strong movitivating factor.

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