Jill,

How did your mom do? How are you doing???

I can't wait to see this movie..it looks pretty good!

It goes almost as social conservatives would want it but not completely.

You mean she keeps her baby?

From Jill:

Sorry!

Her surgery went very well. No stroke, which was the big fear. Plaque can break off…

She had a carotid endardectomy…. Roto-rooter.

She’s in intensive care, standard protocol. I’m going back over there in a few.

Thanks for your prayer and for watching the site. I won’t be around much today either. Am trying to get another post or two up.

JJ

Thanks, mk!!! That's great news! I'll keep praying!!!

Birthmothers are amazing.

Juno and Bleeker are both very smart. Yet their preplanned foray to sate sexual curiosity is void of contraceptives. This is typical immature, careless teenage behavior that no amount of "comprehensive sex ed" has or will overcome.

That's simply not true. In Western Europe, comprehensive sex education has resulted in widespread contraceptive use and teen pregnancy rates that are a tiny fraction of our own.

The abortion industry and feminists are going to HATE this part. After Juno decides to "procure a hasty abortion," she is greeted at the mill by an albeit nerdy pro-life protester, who nevertheless has the intended impact. She calls out to Juno that her baby has fingernails, which grabs Juno. That little humanizing point changes Juno's mind and eventually causes her to ditch the abortion.

What makes you think that pro-choice feminists would hate this? Abortion isn't the right choice for everyone. 2/3rds of teen pregnancies are carried to term in the US, despite abortion being legal.

Most women who abort aren't teenagers; they're women in their twenties and thirties who already have kids.

The noncaring receptionist's face was piercings-laden. She uncouthly told Juno to list "every score and every sore" after offering her a fruit-flavored condom.

Sounds like a pretty good comedy! Reminds me a little bit of Saved!, another good comedy about teenage pregnancy.

That's the kid from Superbad, right? That plays the baby daddy?

Sex ed's principle achievement is to teach soft porn in the classroom and picque sexual curiosity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're right.
If you don't tell the children about humping, they will not hump.
GENIUS!

You do know that the teen pregnancy rate in the country was at it's highest in 1958?

You do know that the teen pregnancy rate in the country was at it's highest in 1958?

Cut and paste the source.

Most women who abort aren't teenagers; they're women in their twenties and thirties who already have kids.

This doesn't elicit sympathy, TP. All you're saying is that these women are old enough and experienced enough to know better.

"That's the kid from Superbad, right? That plays the baby daddy?"

Yeah, I think so.

Most women who abort aren't teenagers; they're women in their twenties and thirties who already have kids.

What is your source for this claim?

According to Guttmacher, about 1/5 of women who abort are married.

I can't wait to watch this movie! Jill, it sounds awesome!

It's 12% that are married.

And we assume that the father is the husband in all these cases? How many women are aborting babies to conceal adultery?

It just goes to show that at least 88% of babies are killed because of sexual immorality.

Thanks Bobby,...that sounds more like it.

Married people should never abort. Why aren't they looking into vasectomies or tubal ligations? Responsibility, people! It's disgusting that 2 people who supposedly "love" each other could kill their own child.

Well Bethany, tp did say "women... who already have kids" which might not mean that some of them are married. Also, there could be married women who don't have kids who are getting abortions. It's not quite the statistic that tp stated, but it is probably close. God love you, Bethany.

Why aren't they looking into vasectomies or tubal ligations?

Better question: Why aren't they open to life?

Jacque, good point! Lots, I'm sure. Besides, most of these marriages end in divorce. You can't tell me that the relationship would ever be the same. I know a woman who aborted her husband's child. When they argue, he calls her a "baby killer." It's not easy for her to leave, because they have 2 living children together.

Jacque, I see your point, but I'd rather see someone "get fixed" than head to the abortion clinic. Why aren't they open to life? They are selfish!!!!!

Better question: Why aren't they open to life?

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 9:58 AM********************************************** Why isn't anyone who has an abortion open to life?

Someone mentioned that some could be pregnancies from adulterous relationships that people want to conceal. For instance, if your husband and boyfriend are of different races or nationalities, that could lead to some questions being asked. Not that I'm condoning adultery, I'm just saying.

Jacque --

This doesn't elicit sympathy

It wasn't meant to.

Bethany --

What is your source for this claim?

Third Way

JKeller, the woman I knew who aborted about 2 months ago, was in that exact situation. She is white, and she had an affair with a black man. She felt she had to abort, so her live in b/f would never find out.

tp, thank you for the link. This explains why just about every woman I know has had an abortion.

Jacque, I see your point, but I'd rather see someone "get fixed" than head to the abortion clinic.

I don't think we should be conceding to unnecessary evil. Tubals/vasectomies are unnecessary just like abortions are unnecessary. I'd prefer the lesser of two evils, but not when there could be NO EVIL AT ALL.

Heather- no offense, but you hang out with some serious riff-raff. Almost everyone you know seems to be some degree of Jerry Springer guest.

It wasn't meant to.

It doesn't bolster your case, TP.

tp, thank you for the link. This explains why just about every woman I know has had an abortion.

Wow. I have friends who post-abortive women, but they're all repentant Christians working in the pro-life movement. I would find it difficult to have a friendship with someone so morally bankrupt that they killed their own baby and still sleep soundly at night.

Jacque, I can't believe you just said that!!!!

heather --

I think one of the most disturbing statistics is this:

Part II, Finding #4
When a teenager has an abortion, parents are often a factor in the
decision.
Those espousing parental consent laws as a way to reduce teenage abortions may
be surprised to know that it is not uncommon for the teenager to wish to carry the
pregnancy to term and for the parents to recommend or demand an abortion.
� 30% of minors seeking abortions attributed their decision in part to the fact that
their parents wanted them to have abortions.xxiii
� Upon learning of their daughters� pregnancies, parents favored abortion over
childbirth by a 4 to 1 ratio.xxiv
� The most common repercussion that a pregnant teen feels after disclosing the
pregnancy to her parents was not being beaten, punished, forced from the home
or even discomfort about living at home. Rather, it is that her parents are
demanding that she have an abortion.xxv

I once had a friend whose parents made her have two abortions when she was in high school, and it really messed her up. Even worse, her parents are staunch republicans and publicly "pro-life." It makes me sick.

Jacque, EXCUSE ME!!! There are 1.3 MILLION ABORTIONS a year!!! How could I not know them???? Maybe Leah has a point! Get off your high horse!!!!! PS Jacque, aren't you the one who says that we should treat these people with compassion?

It doesn't bolster your case, TP.

What case, Jacque? I merely pointed out that the belief that most abortion patients are teenagers is a misconception. I thought my link illustrated that fact rather well.

Jacque, should I start blowing them off 1 by 1? Let's get MK's opinion on that one!!!!!

Hi tp.

"I once had a friend whose parents made her have two abortions when she was in high school, and it really messed her up. Even worse, her parents are staunch republicans and publicly "pro-life." It makes me sick. "

That is sick. If her parents did make her do that, then there is nothing "pro-life" about them. Like the Pharisees in Luke 11:39. God love you, tp.

From the Guttmacher Institute:

Key Trends Over Time
Childbearing. The rate of teen childbearing in the United States has fallen steeply since the late 1950s, from an all time high of 96 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in 1957 to an all time low of 49 in 2000 (see chart below). Birthrates fell steadily throughout the 1960s and 1970s; they were fairly steady in the early 1980s and then rose sharply between 1988 and 1991 before declining throughout the 1990s. In recent years, this downward trend has occurred among teens of all ages and races.

Jacque must seem to think that she's too good for some people!! However, you consider yourself a good Christian, but you posted "I HATE MICHEAL SCHIAVO!!" What kind of a person are you? Why would a good Christian wish ill will on someone? You should pray for him. I'm beginning to think you are a total phony! You should also pray for abortion patients!

Why aren't they looking into vasectomies or tubal ligations?

Better question: Why aren't they open to life?

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 9:58 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Honey, neither you nor I are "open to life," we've just taken different paths to avoid it.

BTW, what's wrong with a tubal ligation?

Juno is hurt when Bleeker agrees with her to "nip it in the bud," or abort.

Um, no she's not. Why on earth do you assume this? Nothing about the scene suggests that she's hurt by it. (I've seen the movie three times.)

You make several valid points (abortion being presented as a viable option, Juno's parents being intelligent and supportive, etc.). But this isn't one of them, nor is your suggestion that sex education... teaches softcore porn to students. Have you taken a sex ed class? There's really nothing at all sexy about it, I promise. Also I consider myself a pretty avid feminist and I absolutely love the scene with the clinic protester. What she says strikes a cord with Juno; it wouldn't necessarily for everyone.

And I don't think I'd classify the ultrasound scene as one that depicts bonding, but it's definitely my favorite in the flim.

Jacque must seem to think that she's too good for some people!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heck, I think I'm too good for a LOT of people.
Your sleazy friends come to mind...

Jacque, you must have lived a pretty sheltered life if you have not had the opportunity to associate with at least one person who has different morals than you, or someone who has made a decision that you yourself would not have made. I conceded a long time ago that Heather must work in some kind of counseling center to know such a large number of women who have had so many abortions, but it is possible to have friends who are not 100% agreeable with your morals and beliefs. Perhaps you even know someone who has had an abortion, but she has never shared this with you.

Well, my sleazy friends have had abortions, so I guess they are indeed sleazy. For that matter, so are tubal ligation patients. So, that makes YOU a sleaze too!

What case, Jacque? I merely pointed out that the belief that most abortion patients are teenagers is a misconception. I thought my link illustrated that fact rather well.

You're right. It did. But it doesn't say much for those that claim abortions are for those that don't know about the birds and the bees and contraception. If a women has already aborted or given birth, she knows where babies come from.

Jacque, I can't believe you just said that!!!!

It's true. Everytime that person would make a value statement about right and wrong, I'd internally think, "Do you know the difference?"

I'm not suggesting you blow off your friends, but how on earth do you have so many friends who are promiscuous, abort left and right, cheat on their partners, etc.? I don't have any friends that live such self-destructive lifestyles. How do you even meet people like that? Unless I frequented a strip club or the bar scene, I wouldn't know where to meet anyone like that.

And how can you have friendships with people who you don't respect? You're the one that talks about how all your friends abort 7, 8, 9 times because they are promiscuous. How they are unrepentant, sterile, unfaithful women. You are the one that uses the term "whore" to describe them, not me.

There is compassion, Heather, but you can't lie with the dogs and not get fleas. How does being around women that have no self-respect and kill every child they haphazardly create NOT bring you down? I couldn't do it.

Maybe my GAY friends are sleazy too!

Jacque, I have said "friends." There are times that I mean acquaintances. It's just easier that way. BTW, how does a good Christian woman wish ill will on someone? Like you did when it came to Micheal Schiavo...Care to explain?

Laura, you're a sleaze too. You sleep around, and you've had a tubal ligation. Yup, you have made the list!

Jacque, you have lived a sheltered life.

Jacque must seem to think that she's too good for some people!!>

Heather- people that are offended by drinking don't hang out in bars. People who are offended by nudity don't frequent strip clubs. You think abortion is wrong, and yet you hang out with women that have them (according to your stories) every other day. I simply asked how you could do that, how it doesn't poison your spirit.

Certain profanities and blastphemies bother me, so I can't be around it. How can you subject yourself to being around what offends you so much?

I wouldn't hang around with people whose behavior offends me. I'm not better than they are. I have protestant friends that are offended by Catholicism. They don't come to church with me. It's all the same.

However, you consider yourself a good Christian, but you posted "I HATE MICHEAL SCHIAVO!!"

I do.

What kind of a person are you?

The kind fo person who hates Michael Schiavo.

Why would a good Christian wish ill will on someone?

Because I'm pissed off. Because I desire justice toward him for the torture he did to an innocent person.

You should pray for him.

I do. All the time. I have no choice.

I'm beginning to think you are a total phony!

Thank you, Heather. Your tirade is duly noted.

You should also pray for abortion patients!

I do. All the time. I'm a sidewalk counselor for one. I pray all the time for abortion patients.

JKeller, I agree!

Bobby, you're right.

TP, I looked at your link... I noticed that many of the references came from the Center for Reproductive rights, etc, and the CDC. I am not too sure of how unbiased that information is. I could probably find a study that refutes it. I'll get back with you.

Okay, so today I'll call every woman I know, and I shall say "I'm sorry." "We are no longer friends, because you've had an abortion."... Same goes for the gays. They are off the list. Let me call the women who have had tubals too. They are toast! Oh, you still shouldn't HATE Mr. SHEIVO, Jacque!

Laura, you're a sleaze too. You sleep around, and you've had a tubal ligation. Yup, you have made the list!

Posted by: heather at November 14, 2007 10:43 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My shortest relationship ever was 7 years.
I must be one slutty cicada!

Jacque, you pray for abortion patients, but you're too good to be friends with them? Oh, that's so wrong! How about those who repent? Are you only friends with virgins too?

*blinks*

Never have I seen more flagrant hypocrisy in my life.

My shortest relationship ever was 7 years.
I must be one slutty cicada!

Posted by: Laura at November 14, 2007 10:50 AM********************** You might want to ask Jacque about that one. Sounds like the Springer show to me!

And not all people who have had abortions frequent bars and strip clubs. In fact, strip clubs cater mainly to men.

How can having a vasectomy or a tubal ligation be evil? It helps prevent unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions. Would you rather people continue bringing children into the world that they cannot financially care for?

Your sleazy friends come to mind...

So not sleeping around and being a church-goer makes you sleazy? In that case, I'm proud to be a sleaze!

Jacque, you must have lived a pretty sheltered life if you have not had the opportunity to associate with at least one person who has different morals than you, or someone who has made a decision that you yourself would not have made.

I am close to a former late-term abortion worker. She is post-abortive and unrepentant. We met when I was a sidewalk counselor at her clinic. I helped her leave the clinic. I almost threw a baby shower packed with her friends from the clinic when she was pregnant last. I do associated with people with different people, but associating with people that hurt other people (their own babies) is friggin' taxing. There is only so much of that I can take. I must then retreat to the company of people that don't kill their kids.

Killing a baby is not a "different decision." It's not chocolate or vanilla. It's right and wrong.

Jacque, you have lived a sheltered life.

Yes. I have an intact family with two married parents. I'm grateful for that. I make choices so that I can provide that for my own children. But the fact that I oppose something, would never participate in it and choose not to be around it is not a bad thing. Everyone does that in some regard.

Laura, you're a sleaze too. You sleep around, and you've had a tubal ligation. Yup, you have made the list!

Laura has had 3 sex partners in her entire life. She's slept with the same man for 10 years. I don't count that as sleeping around.

By the way, TP I hope that post didn't sound snotty. Your statistics may be accurate. I just want to do some checking around first because it just sounds wrong to me.

JKeller, we finally agree. Check the whether channel to see if hell has frozen over!

Jacque, BS! Don't try to dig yourself out of the hole now!********************************************************************************************Laura has had 3 sex partners in her entire life. She's slept with the same man for 10 years. I don't count that as sleeping around.

Posted by: Jacqueline the Sleaze at November 14, 2007 10:53 AM

Okay, so today I'll call every woman I know, and I shall say "I'm sorry." "We are no longer friends, because you've had an abortion."... Same goes for the gays. They are off the list. Let me call the women who have had tubals too. They are toast! Oh, you still shouldn't HATE Mr. SHEIVO, Jacque!

Heather, CHILL. I never said that. You are seriously wound up. Take. a. deep. breath.

I'm friends with people whose lifestyles I disapprove of. I just can't hang out with them exclusively. It's a soul-killer. I don't understand how you, so vocally anti-sleeping around and anti-abortion, hang out with people that sleep around and have abortions. It's a logical question. I don't know why you're so touchy.

Oh, you still shouldn't HATE Mr. SHEIVO, Jacque!

I know that. But I do. Hate him, hate him, hate him.

Why are you posting as "Jacque the sleaze?"...Are you trying to be cute? I thought you called me a sleaze!!!!!!!

Nah, its 63 and rainy

;-)

I know that. But I do. Hate him, hate him, hate him.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 10:59 AM
YOU SHOULDN'T HATE ANYONE! You shouldn't be judging anyone either.

Okay, I'm outta here for the day. G'by

Your sleazy friends come to mind...

So not sleeping around and being a church-goer makes you sleazy? In that case, I'm proud to be a sleaze!

Posted by: Jacqueline the Sleaze at November 14, 2007 10:53 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That wasn't aimed at you.

OK. Guys. CHILL.

What's gotten into you today?

Everyone makes their mistakes, everyone has their own opinions on how their and other people's lifestyles should be. It's human nature. Now calm the blazes down.

Heather, I think it's wonderful that you can get past your personal objections and realize that even people you disagree with are still people as human as you are.

Jacque, I think it's admirable how unshakable your sense of morality is.

Unfortunately, it's making you guys be nasty to each other. Us choicers are getting bored because you guys are too busy hollering at each other to debate us heartless babykillers.

YOU SHOULDN'T HATE ANYONE! You shouldn't be judging anyone either.

Posted by: heather at November 14, 2007 11:01 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, the irony...

Jacque, BS! Don't try to dig yourself out of the hole now!

I'm not in a hole, Heather. Do you think your thoughts of me have any impact on me whatsoever?

I'm saying that 3 sex partners and one for 10 solid years isn't sleeping around. I bet you've had more sex partners than three!

You might want to ask Jacque about that one. Sounds like the Springer show to me!

Heather, if having so many abortions that you become sterile, having many different daddies for each abortion and having an abortion to cover up having a mized-race child from an affair to appease a live-in boyfriend doesn't sound like Jerry Springer to you, you've never actually seen the show.

Jacque, you pray for abortion patients, but you're too good to be friends with them?

I'm not "too good" for anything. I just can't sit around and watch people I care for hurt themselves and others. No one can endure that unnecessarily. It's hard enough to do with with our families.

Oh, that's so wrong!

No, it's not. You don't hang out where you aren't comfortable, either. No one does.

How about those who repent?

I have many, many friends who once lived one way and now live another. My RCIA sponsor had 4 abortions. I know ex-sex workers. I know post-abortive women. But they're not hurting themselves anymore. If they were, I don't think I could endure a friendship with them.

Are you only friends with virgins too?

A majority of my friends are virgins. Some are not that are abstinent. Birds of a feather. Many are married.

Sheesh, I thought this thread was about the movie Juno. Little did I know...

That wasn't aimed at you.

My bad.

Unfortunately, it's making you guys be nasty to each other. Us choicers are getting bored because you guys are too busy hollering at each other to debate us heartless babykillers.

I agree. Apparently I touched a nerve. I could have reworded my question. I really was interested in how someone as vehemently anti-sleeping around and anti-abortion finds herself around such different people. It's a curiousity. It's like Bob Dole hanging out with a bunch of gangsta rappers.

YOU SHOULDN'T HATE ANYONE! You shouldn't be judging anyone either.

Yes and no. I shouldn't hate anyone. But I do know what I believe and I do pass judgements on actions. Case in point: I think drugs are stupid and dangerous. I think people that do drugs are being stupid and dangerous.

Everyone makes those judgements.

Erin, well said.

The movie's ending is somewhat a cliff-hanger, unexpected, yet emotionally satisfying. It goes almost as social conservatives would want it but not completely. I have a feeling there will be a few complaints. I got over it.

Ah Jill, I wish you hadn't said this. Now the suspense will be killing me until December 14th.

I've just jumped out of the shower. Good thing I didn't log off yet. Jacque, the woman who aborted 7 times was a woman I once knew. SHE WASN'T MY BFF!! AND LAURA, yes. this was your perfect opportunity to jump on the bandwagon. You are the MOST judgemental person of all! So, put a sock in it!

Okay, engines cooling...I thought that Jill's blog was a place to share stories. So, I've shared some. I guess from now on, I'll just keep them to myself. I was trying to show you about how abortion has affected people I know/knew. However, this proves to be too upsetting for some.

Laura, don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. Jacque thinks you sleep around. She's against it until marriage. She's just trying to be your buddy for the time being.

I'm not in a hole, Heather. Do you think your thoughts of me have any impact on me whatsoever?

I'm saying that 3 sex partners and one for 10 solid years isn't sleeping around. I bet you've had more sex partners than three!

Is this another judgement? I cannot believe you went there again!!!!

Heather, if having so many abortions that you become sterile, having many different daddies for each abortion and having an abortion to cover up having a mized-race child from an affair to appease a live-in boyfriend doesn't sound like Jerry Springer to you, you've never actually seen the show.

*********************************************************************************** No. It's real life!!!!!

Laura, don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. Jacque thinks you sleep around.

Are you Jacque? No, I don't think she sleeps around. Didn't I just say that I don't think she sleeps around?

She's against it until marriage.

Yes, I am. I think a monogamous life-long non-marital sexual relationship is just as sexually immoral as a one night stand. Sex outside of marriage is wrong. But having sex in a relationship for years on end is not sleeping around. I think it's wrong, but it's not sleeping around.

Being in your 50's and having slept with 3 people. 1 every 15 years or so is not sleeping around.

She's just trying to be your buddy for the time being.

No I'm not. Laura hates me. I'm not so fond of her either.

Perhaps heather and Jacque (boy, I hate to see you quarrel) can both learn a lesson from St. Francis Assisi. He never took a bath and stank so much that he (even if spiritually gifted) was asked (by the very Brothers he recruited) to sleep in the barn with the animals.

Both of you are very much gifted. The trick is to appreciate that uniqueness and not judge/place others (nor even ourselves) as 'normal'. St. John the Baptist was literally a wild-man. He never cut his hair; lived in the outback (and likely never bathed). And was Jesus' close cousin .... be very, very careful when you judge. Jesus hung around with riffraff. Aren't we to do the same ... "visit those in prison ....."?

Laura, don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. Jacque thinks you sleep around. She's against it until marriage. She's just trying to be your buddy for the time being.

Posted by: heather at November 14, 2007 11:29 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure that Jacque has never spent a nanosecond worrying about my sex life.

No. It's real life!!!!!

In what ghetto or trailer park? It's certainly not the real lives of people who aren't hell bent for self-destruction.

Is this another judgement? I cannot believe you went there again!!!!

Answer the question. Have you had more sex partners than Laura? If so, you need to watch out.

About judgements:

What Saint Matthew says "Judge not, lest ye be judged," he continues with "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged." (Matt 7:2-5)

So those judgments you pass on others will be applied to you.

I judge such lives as wrongly lived and therefore, I don't live those lives. If you judge Laura's life as wrongly lived (that she "sleeps around") you better make sure that you are free of what you accuse.

Jesus hung around with riffraff. Aren't we to do the same ...

No! Jesus never hung around with unrepentant riff-raff.

Here's how we are to treat the unrepentant:

MARK THEM AND AVOID THEM--"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (Romans 16:17)

SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THEM--"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," (2 Corinthians 6:17)

REBUKE THEM--"...rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" (Titus 1:13)

REJECT THEM--"A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;" (Titus 3:10)

WITHDRAW FROM THEM--"...we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

TRY THEM--"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits wheth I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (Romans 16:17)

REPROVE THEM--"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11)

TURN AWAY FROM THEM--"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:5)

HAVE NO COMPANY WITH THEM--"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed." (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

RECEIVE THEM NOT--"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 1:10-11) *

The trick is to appreciate that uniqueness and not judge/place others (nor even ourselves) as 'normal'.

Don't worry, John. I'm far from normal. :)

The non-caring receptionist's face was piercings-laden.
Okay, this statement right here, really pisses me off. Just b/c someone has facial piercings, or visible tattoos, DOES NOT mean that they are "uncaring". It's this kind of stereotyping that is killing the world we live in. Some of the sweetest people I know have "sleeves" of tattoos down their arms and legs, and have multiple facial and ear piercings. Jill you should be ashamed of yourself for condoning this kind of blatant stereotyping.
------------------------------------
It's 12% that are married.

And we assume that the father is the husband in all these cases? How many women are aborting babies to conceal adultery?

It just goes to show that at least 88% of babies are killed because of sexual immorality.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 9:52 AM------

Jacqueline:

You too should be ashamed for saying something like that. Just b/c 12% of married couples have an abortion DOES NOT mean that they are "concealing" adultery. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe some married couples don't want children or don't want another child? That is a ridiculous statement.

Sometimes y'alls statement just amaze me to how closed minded yall are/can be....

"Sounds like a pretty good comedy! Reminds me a little bit of Saved!, another good comedy about teenage pregnancy."
LOL loved that movie!!

Like the duo from Arrested Development--so I expect this movie to be good!

You too should be ashamed for saying something like that. Just b/c 12% of married couples have an abortion DOES NOT mean that they are "concealing" adultery.

Look at what I said- I said that not ALL of those abortions are guarenteed to have come from the husband. Perhaps all 12% are, nonetheless a vast majority 88% come from sexual immorality.

That's what I said. I said 88% because we know 88% are UNmarried. I'm assuming that all those 12% were faithful, when some are probably not.

You don't think abortions are done to conceal adultery, Midnite? Maybe not much of the time, but I am saying that it does happen.

Jacqueline:

I am sure that it happens every once in a while, but very rare. But you are just assuming that every married woman that has an abortion is concealing an adultress relationship. Are you trying to see the bad in people, even if it's not there?

Yeah...usually they have the babies if it's adulterous, Jacque. Otherwise, we wouldn't get all the awesome episodes of Maury and paternity tests!

I am sure that it happens every once in a while, but very rare. But you are just assuming that every married woman that has an abortion is concealing an adultress relationship. Are you trying to see the bad in people, even if it's not there?

Would you stop putting words in my mouth and actually read what I wrote? I said it happens, but did not include it in the 88% statistic because I don't know how often it happens. I'm not even implying that it happens a lot, only that it happens.

Yeah...usually they have the babies if it's adulterous, Jacque. Otherwise, we wouldn't get all the awesome episodes of Maury and paternity tests!

You're right! I forgot!

Hey Midnite,
Sorry to bring up old news, but I never read what happened to your boyfriend and how are you doing?

Sometimes y'alls statement just amaze me to how closed minded yall are/can be.... -midnite678

The person accusing another of being "closeminded" is most often "closedminded" themselves.

Hey Jacques,

I do have a very hard time with your quotes ... because of the capital letter intro to each ... perhaps there is a very poor misunderstanding about what Jesus life was like. Me-thinks you get a wee bit too wound up on the necessity for repentance to initiate forgiveness. Please read the story of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus says " ... nor do I condemn you ... " There is absolutely no indication that the woman was repentant, seeking forgiveness, or that she even knew who Jesus was. There is also that famous quote from St. Paul... "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us all ...". Please note that nowhere does Paul qualify us as repentant-sinners - IN vs unrepentant - OUT. It is only after developing a relationship in Jesus does such a split exist. It is my opinion, that Heather's relationships (with these 'sinners') are on the front side, before such a split even occurs.

About Jesus hanging around with riffraff - very true! That is the major reason the Pharisees considered Him as not being suitable to give spiritual advice ... they figured: God/ a 'real' holy man, didn't hangout with beggars and thieves; only with Pharisees ... Jesus asks: who needs the physician?

Again Jesus says about who will enter the kingdom: those who feed the hungry ... cloth the naked ... visit those in prison. What is left off that list are (I think) those who do not get themselves a little softer on the edges by refusing to engage ... just as Jacob tussled for hours with God's angel.

" You shouldn't be judging anyone either."

The only people who are nonjudgemental are sociopaths.

In Jacq's defense, I don't believe she was trying to be antagonistic, just curious. While hanging out with riffraff as Jesus did is amazing work (working with the homeless comes to mind-I know a girl who does and she's freaking amazing), if she is utterly offended by something she makes a point to avoid them, so I can understand where she is coming from. Although I do disagree about avoiding them altogether. It's a case by case basis. Sometimes all people need is a friend or someone to care about them. Other times you can only be so forgiving. I had a friend who used to be very close but then I realized she had been manipulating me for all those years and lying all of the time. There is only so much a soul can take of that before you have to break away.

So, you both have a point guys, I do not see why this has become a shouting match.

John,

We just have a fundamental disagreement. I see your point of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus offers compassion to all, but what is required of the receiver is REPENTANCE. We can not be forgiven without repentance, as much as Christ wants to forgive us. It's like you said about the scripture "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us all ..." Yes, He did. But to benefit from Christ's death their must be repentance. Jesus didn't die so there we be no need to repent- we still must receive forgiveness through repentance. So Christ died, opening the hope of Heaven, but repentence is still required. St. Paul wasn't saying, "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us all ..., so you might as well keep being sinners!"

Look at the contrition of the sinners that Jesus dined with: Look at Zaccheus (sp?), the woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears. He rebuked the cold-hearted righteous Pharisees and accepted them imperfect that sought perfection in His forgiveness. Jesus didn't keep the company of tax collectors for the sake of fun.

Erin, LOL

We were just talking about that in genetics the other day.

All I could think about was Maury and Jenny Jones, where there were like 3 guys with this woman who has this 3 year old. And everytime they make it suspenseful and say "You are....not the father" and then the guy stands up and is like, "I told you b*tch!" Or the other way around he's like "bullsh*t! It's a liar!"

Good times. Sometime I would like to see that in person. Good entertainment.

I also like how Jerry Springer always has those words of wisdom at the end. Hilarious.

OMG that trailer looks ADORABLE.

Although I do disagree about avoiding them altogether.

I'm not saying that. I just don't get making such people your poker buddies.

"Certain profanities and blastphemies bother me, so I can't be around it. How can you subject yourself to being around what offends you so much?"

Because I want to convert them. My best friend used to be a liberal pro-abort and I had tried for years to convert her and this past spring she was confirmed.

I can understand that, Jacque. For example, theatre tends to be a rather liberal field. We had a girl my last year of high school who complained about us doing the musical "Urinetown"- a fantastic show that uses a lot of satire to put across the point that idealism isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's got wonderful music, some great dance numbers. This girl somehow didn't get the point of the show (Verbatim, she said, 'But, it's about killing people who go to the bathroom'), and he parents raised heck, and we didn't get to do our show. She also has turned down three different parts that she has been assigned since that year because she didn't think that they were 'appropriate' (she refused to be an Angel in Anything Goes because she thought it was too sexual). I wanted to swat her on the head with a newspaper for ruining our senior show. She was a sophomore at the time, which made it worse. We ended up doing The Wiz instead. With our all-white cast. Seriously...it was terrible.

In other words, her differences are so much different from mine that while I can tolerate her in small doses, if I had to spend much more time with her, I'd probably yell at her. Or something.

Don't forget about the Prodigal Sons. Big time repentance..

Because I want to convert them. My best friend used to be a liberal pro-abort and I had tried for years to convert her and this past spring she was confirmed.

I understand that. I'm just saying that my heart aches and my spirit is poisoned when I stay around people for too long who offend me.

In other words, her differences are so much different from mine that while I can tolerate her in small doses, if I had to spend much more time with her, I'd probably yell at her. Or something.

You understand! Birds of a feather flock together for a reason.

You know, my father is baffled by how diverse my friends are if our personalities and backgrounds. My circle of friends included a spoiled princess, a struggling single mom, a pacifist, an air force officer, a dancer, a musician, a computer geek, etc. We weren't into the same hobbies, music, anything. We just had similar values. We all loved Jesus, so we were a family.

It's not about being ALIKE so much not being offensive.

Jacque,
"I understand that. I'm just saying that my heart aches and my spirit is poisoned when I stay around people for too long who offend me."

I hear you big time, however, we Catholics get to offer up things. My sister in-law recently said that the reason she hasn't been sidewalk counseling recently is because she gets spiritually attacked every thime she goes out there. While I understand why she doesn't want to do it, I also wonder why she doesn't realize that maybe that is all the more reason to get out there and do it.

"It's not about being ALIKE so much not being offensive."

I understand that as well, but I think a lot of people aren't even aware that they are being offensive, they see it as perfectly normal. They need to be told that they are being offensive, and they need to see how other people live. BUT, like you said earlier I do have a responsibility to protect my children's innocence. My brother's wife just left him for a woman (talk about Jerry Springer). I have decided that she is no longer welcome in my home, because I can't trust her judgement. I don't hate her I just don't want her around.

rosie-

Isn't that grounds for an anullment?

Sometimes y'alls statement just amaze me to how closed minded yall are/can be.... -midnite678

The person accusing another of being "closeminded" is most often "closedminded" themselves.

Posted by: Matthew at November 14, 2007 1:25 PM

When I was in college my friends and I would say that the when you have an open mind, some people will throw junk in.
It is fine to listen, but you still need to think.

Erin is blinking at hypocrisy!!!
Takes one to know one huh Erin?
To eliminate all this hypocrisy throwing flame, one must know the definition of hypocrisy.
Erin does not.
If a person prays for a abortionist and does not like the abortionist, that person contains no hypocrisy within that person. Hypocrisy is practicing(doing) and professing(affirming to the public) beliefs,feelings, or virtues which one does not hold. I feel that abortionist are murderers. I also pray for murderers and do not have to be their friends, nor like them. So blink Erin, and blink again, from being educated to the lowest level of agitational propaganda one can be reduced to. Why is Erin so slow on the uptake? Because Erin is a liberal who is confused about life, from being educated to think hypocrisy is not practicing what one preaches. Short definitions work on weak minds. And minds that have not looked up one definition of a word since the 3rd grade.
In fact, Jesus never said he was "friends" with anyone in his life.
He had mercy for people.
All I need is a bible liberal send out that line from the bible about those without sin may cast the first stone is a confirmation of their being educated to the lowest level possible about "that quote", from the bible. It is what Jesus says to Mary Magdelene that is the important completion of the moral lesson he is preaching.
Jesus judged her and said, Go and sin no more.
And Erin? How's your hypocrisy going Erin? Been getting your hands dirty for your belief, which you do not practice? Got a sense of humor you hypocrite Erin? Or is being made fun of soo important to your fragile self you think it is a insult?

Hey PIP. Actually, no, leaving ones spouse is not grounds for an anullment. What an anullment does is to declare that there was no marriage from the beginning. So it is mostly interested on what happened on the day of your wedding. Although things like an abusive spouse and a spouse leaving can be some good evidence for an anullment, it does not necessarily have any bearing on the validity of the marriage because after your wedding day you are either married or not married. Period. That's what an anullment attepmts to decide. Does that make sense, PIP? God love you.

Today I learned about a condom scavenger hunt that is going to be held in all the libraries on the university campus where I work! There are already people making out in the library as it is. And we need to give them condoms? This is just encouraging young adults to have sex and you can bet that some of these girls are gonna get pregnant. And this distribution is supposed to be for AIDS prevention! The world has gone completely crazy.

"In fact, Jesus never said he was "friends" with anyone in his life."

NO? Check this out:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." -- John 15:13-15, Jesus speaking.

Which University, Particia?

"Hey PIP. Actually, no, leaving ones spouse is not grounds for an anullment. What an anullment does is to declare that there was no marriage from the beginning. "

Oh, that's not what I meant. I'm sure the "leaving" part was not grounds, but I was talking about the nature of the relationship.

Homosexuality--isn't that grounds? One doesn't just "choose" to be a homosexual. So the marriage was not a real covenant to begin with right?

Further to Bobby's comment, the intentions at the time of the marriage are important. For example if a man marries a woman and he learns that she won't have children and never had ANY intention of bearing children - that would likely be grounds for an annullment, especially if she never divulged those intentions to him or led him to think otherwise.

Oh the homosexuality part, I see. I think the same principles will still apply. Homosexuality is a very good indicator that a marriage never took place, but again, one could very well sincerely mean to marry a man, and later in life be in love with a women. So while it would be good evidence, it is my understanding that homosexuality would by no means be an automatic anullment.

I'm not divulging. Needless to say that the staff are NOT amused and most find this incredibly vulgar! We already have trouble dealing with people making out in the library (as in total nudity etc) - so hey, why not give them some more incentive with the condoms. Maybe we can even leave them in those parts of the library where this activity is most frequent. Oh by the way, they get a prize if they find a certain # of condoms which likely won't be difficult. :-p

Arg, that was me.

Right, Patricia makes a good point about marriage. It really is all about the mindset and intention of the couple on the day of the wedding. Everything else only lends support.

Oh by the way Bobby, maybe I'll wear jackets those days with BIG pockets so I can surrepitously stuff as many condoms in as possible. I don't think I even know what a condom package looks like but I'm sure with 2 advanced degrees I'll be able to figure it out! The scavenger hunt goes on for 7 LONG DAYS!

Haha, NICE! Take that!

Bobby Bambino

Actions throughout the marriage are important too. These tend to indicate the intention throughout the marriage - for example repeated unfaithfulness.
Unfortunately, I'm speaking from experience here as I am an annulled Catholic.

I stand corrected then. You know the bible and can quote those verses. Thank You. Now, notice Jesus said Ye are my friends If you do whatsoever I commmand you. So If they did not do what he commanded, were they then, not friends of Jesus?
Which is asking if Jesus prayed for abortionist or those who administered abortifacients in his days on Earth, and Jesus commanded them to stop such actions, Jesus would not be friends with them, would he? According to certain minds here, Jesus would be considered a hypocrite.

Hey there yllaS. You have to be a little bit careful here, though. If you do whatever I command you, then you are my friends. If P then Q. However, you quoted the converse above i.e. If not P then not Q, which does not follow according to the rules of logic. If P then Q does not imply if not P then not Q. And I"m not necessarily saying I disagree with the point you're trying to make, yllaS, it's just that you can't argue it using the coverse of Jesus' statement.

Hey PIP. Actually, no, leaving ones spouse is not grounds for an anullment. What an anullment does is to declare that there was no marriage from the beginning. So it is mostly interested on what happened on the day of your wedding. Although things like an abusive spouse and a spouse leaving can be some good evidence for an anullment, it does not necessarily have any bearing on the validity of the marriage because after your wedding day you are either married or not married. Period. That's what an anullment attepmts to decide. Does that make sense, PIP? God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 14, 2007 4:18 PM

Actually my parents got an annulment. It's not that they are easy to get by any means but they are easier to get than they once were. I think the Church saw that too many people were getting married outside the church and then not being able to take the Sacraments.

Anywho, my dad left my mom for another woman. My mom filed all the paperwork for the annulment and went through a ton of paperwork and interviews. Basically my dad had an affair years before he left. Of course things were never the same and he left eventually. The annulment was granted on the basis that he wasn't able to commit, even to the woman he had the affair with. They had been married 20 years, 5 kids. I've got a Jerry Springer episode, let me tell you.

Hi Kristen, I believe Bobby's comment is essentially correct. Technically leaving a spouse is not grounds for an annullment. There are probably other factors you are not aware of in your parents relationship that were considered. The situation you describe - a friend of mine who also went through this was told by a good priest that this is an example of "one foot in the marriage". Of course, it's very difficult for the Church to have people live up to the ideals of this sacrament if they do not prepare young people properly for marriage. With so many broken families, lack of instruction in the Catholic schools, poor and scandalous example of prominent and not so prominent Catholics, very little instruction on sexual morality and such from the pulpit it is no wonder there are so many failed marriages. There is also virtually no attempt at crisis counselling within the Catholic Church at the diocesan level. This ministry is very badly needed.

John,

We just have a fundamental disagreement. I see your point of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus offers compassion to all, but what is required of the receiver is REPENTANCE. We can not be forgiven without repentance, as much as Christ wants to forgive us. It's like you said about the scripture "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us all ..." Yes, He did. But to benefit from Christ's death their must be repentance. Jesus didn't die so there we be no need to repent- we still must receive forgiveness through repentance. So Christ died, opening the hope of Heaven, but repentence is still required. St. Paul wasn't saying, "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us all ..., so you might as well keep being sinners!"

Look at the contrition of the sinners that Jesus dined with: Look at Zaccheus (sp?), the woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears. He rebuked the cold-hearted righteous Pharisees and accepted them imperfect that sought perfection in His forgiveness. Jesus didn't keep the company of tax collectors for the sake of fun.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 1:46 PM

.................

Jacque,

Again I find myself with a huge difficulty....the act of REPENTANCE is often the result of an encounter with Jesus. In such circumstances it may be best to leave the ascertaining of the soul's disposition to Jesus Himself. I take the attitude that this is His business, not mine. Its my job 'to collect the wheat and the darnel' and the angels' job to separate them. Their job too to 'throw the chaff into the fire'.

Aside from this, the rest of the post is super! We should not in our day become the tax collectors (society's outcasts ... lose women and pro-aborts) but just as in Jesus' time, we should hope to find Him there ... at the very summit of hopelessness/despair, the utter panic and rank hypocrisy and stupidity that is an abortion mill. Is it not also yet another Calvary? We need not become a new-day tax-collector, but I think we need be there ... even as a support/friend to unusual people like Heather.

Patricia, I read the documents of the annulment after my father's death. As I stated, the grounds of the annulment were because my father was unable to commit, not because he left my mother. My mother applied for the annulment, the Church was not going to punish her by not being able to marry in the Church because of the actions of my father.

I am speaking as someone with first hand knowledge of an annulment. It took more than 4 years to obtain it and (unfortunately) I knew every aspect of their relationship - much more than any 16 year old needs to know. (And yes I mean EVERYTHING, chalk that up to the horrible depression my mother was going through.)

I agree that abandonment is not grounds for an annulment in the Church's view, they find the cause of the abandonment and that's the basis for the decision, but no abandonment - no reason for annulment. Semantics.

That's not to say there aren't other reasons for an annulment. Mental illness that isn't disclosed, the child issue that was mentioned above, etc...

Kristen, I am sorry that you and your mom had to suffer through this. It was a terrible time for me - I've only had my annulment for 3 years. May God bless your family.
I do not know the grounds for my annulment nor was I given them. I have no documents except a letter from my diocese stating that I am free to remarry. I was going to go and find out the reasons but decided against this since I had been through so much already.
I will say though that the cause of the abandonment must have been present at the time of the marriage vows and not afterwards. However, all is moot now, since your father (may he rest in peace)passed away.
God bless Kristen

PIP,
I don't really know, they didn't get married in a church, they went to the court house. She never said she was gay, she says she is bi. *rolls eyes* I'm kinda thankful they didn't have a church wedding.

Her surgery went very well. No stroke, which was the big fear. Plaque can break off… She had a carotid endardectomy…. Roto-rooter. She’s in intensive care, standard protocol.

Jill, good luck and love to your mom - that is some serious stuff indeed.

Best,

Doug

Why aren't they looking into vasectomies or tubal ligations?

Jacqueline: "Better question: Why aren't they open to life?"

I think that indeed is a good question. I'd say that in the given situations, they don't want more kids, at least not right then.

As far as vasectomies and ligations, they may not want to do that, enough.

Doug

Erin: Unfortunately, it's making you guys be nasty to each other. Us choicers are getting bored because you guys are too busy hollering at each other to debate us heartless babykillers.

Erin, you rock like a big dog.

Tell you what, though - I'm still smarting from that one rating service that had you as a full-fledged "Vicelord," while I only got to the lowly status of a "Pessimist."

Wasn't that a bitter pill to swallow, hee hee hee?

Doug (Pan-Galactic Vicelord Wannabe)

Laura, don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. Jacque thinks you sleep around. She's against it until marriage. She's just trying to be your buddy for the time being.

Heather, you kill me. As Bobby would say, God love you, Jacque and Laura.

And - it's getting to be the season - God bless us, everyone.

Doug

Doctor Jacque: Don't worry, John. I'm far from normal. :)

Ha! You sure don't hesitate to wade rignt into an argument.

Dougster

John, my entire point was this...Do we cut off the sinner? Do we label the "sinner" and have no further contact with them? Do we shun the sinner? I don't mind being friends with sinners, because I am a sinner too. Any words of wisdom? If I really think that I'm "too good" for a sinner, then forget it. I may as well tell them "You're Jerry Springer material." "To heck with you."

yllas: According to certain minds here, Jesus would be considered a hypocrite.

Could be, Holmes, but according to Jesus, you'd be one big old grouch.

Doug

BTW, thank you all for the support!

Heather: I may as well tell them "You're Jerry Springer material."

H, you mean that wasn't you on there the other day??!!

Also, for those of you who disagree with me, that's okay too. I guess it made me take a good look at myself as well. It's not right to be judged, and perhaps I needed a reality check.

Doug, I have just apologized. What more do ya want?

Doug,
So now you now know the mind, feelings, and judgements of Jesus? Coming from a person who is always appealing to pessimism, I take that statement with a grain of salt.
And the fact that you and Jesus might not be friends from your being FOR allowing women to murder babies in womb, maybe your the grouch who stole optimism. Care to expand on your "could be" Holmes?

Okay, here's a better question...Do we refuse to have fellowship with post abortive women? Do we befriend them, and try to show them the way? John McDonell, what do you think? I shall respect your input.

Being in your 50's and having slept with 3 people. 1 every 15 years or so is not sleeping around.

She's just trying to be your buddy for the time being.

No I'm not. Laura hates me. I'm not so fond of her either.

Posted by: Jacqueline at November 14, 2007 11:43 AM******************************************************************************************************************** Jacque, she's 44, and yes it is too "sleeping around." Is there a cut off date for "sleeping around?"

What if you sleep around @ age 14 or 44? Why isn't it considered "sleeping around???"

Poor Doug,
Pessimism is your stock and trade. You appeal to the emotions of others, to progress your allowing women to murder what they created. Good job, Despairing Doug.
As for vice, not knowing the definition does limit your knowing the word/subject being discussed. Look up the definition and think about yourself being the result of not knowing your vices, Doug.
You know, like a father on the road soo much and thinking he is a good father, makes a realisitic good father, grouchy. Is he realisticlly a good father Doug?

JKELLER, oops, meant *weather* [above post]

Doug, I have just apologized. What more do ya want?

Heather, I was just having fun . Heck, as far as I'm concerned you didn't even need to apologize.

Doug, So now you now know the mind, feelings, and judgements of Jesus? Coming from a person who is always appealing to pessimism, I take that statement with a grain of salt.

Oh yeah, yllas, the old boy would say you were one mega-grouch.

I know that sometimes it's best for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to have an abortion. That's not "pessimism," that's just reality.

If you're looking for pessmism, grouchiness, acid-dripping tones, etc, look to your own posts.

Doug

PIP, you also bring up some excellent points! My mom's friend calls those people "dead wood".."get rid of them" she says. I'm torn, and I'm open to suggestion.

Bobby.

You are my friend.
I commmand one thing from you Bobby, to be my friend,I command you to pray, for Doug, the preacher for women may kill babies God created.

You did not pray for Doug, the preacher for the option to kill, Doug, Bobby?
What have you done?

posted by heather 11:01 am: You shouldn't be judging anyone either.

Umm... people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

yllas, you know what Bobby would say....

Good Heavens,

Every time I go away I come back to a cat fight!

Heather,
I think what Jacquie is saying is that for her own protection, she needs to stay away from people that aren't good for her.

Someone very wise once said to me..."You must be willing to help people...to walk through fire and over broken glass for them. But you must not help them one iota more than they are willing to help themselves."

So yes, Jesus most certainly did hang out with the riffraff. But only the riffraff who were looking to change their lives. He wasn't hanging out with the Pharisees because He knew that they weren't interested in what He had to offer.

Jacquie, we must remember that on days when we are fasting, we must not engage in heavy debate...

Heather, If anything, I would ask you to choose your friends wisely, for your own sake. Tho I do understand that you have used the word "friends" loosely for the sake of easier posting.

I have no doubt that you are a wonderful friend. I know I would go to you if I needed someone to talk to. I just hope you balance your friendships and are friends with healthy people as well as troubled ones.

I myself haven't got many friends that live different lifestyles than me, mostly because they won't have anything to do with me and not visa versa.

And now my head is splitting and I'm going to go and check if Bobby had a baby yet...

MK, lol! You know, there are times that I just DON'T know. Would Christ want me to depart from these people because of what they have done, or would he want me to keep them close? I cannot change their pasts. I cannot make them repent, but everyone has problems. MK, what is your HONEST opinion? If I cut them loose, what do I TELL them? Isn't that why we talk to pro choicers on this blog?

MK, I am sincerely asking you this question. What should I do? How should I do it? Should I tell them "you're riff raff, and I just can't be around you anymore."

yllas, I am certainly your friend. And I do pray for Doug. I pray for everyone on this blog. I care deeply about all of you. God love you, yllas, and God love Doug as well.

Bobby, what would you do in my situation?

Another question. How do we know if riffraff wants to change or not? How do we know if they are able to change with some help?...Maybe nobody ever told them right from wrong. We have some women in their 40's and 50's who haven't a clue. So, where do you begin and end?

Also, when do you give up on riffraff? What is the age limit? When do you toss in the towel?

Heather,
The only advice that I can give you, because, of course, every situation is different, is this:
PRAY..then, do exactly as God leads you to do!

That was easy, huh? :)

AB Laura, thank you.

Praying is a great idea. I do it! However, sometimes people are not that easy to shake. Especially when they are close to you. They expect an explanation.

Hi Heather,

friendship is a unique loving way that people share each other's lives. The whole point of Jesus having His disciples was to make them His friends ... a bond so tight that they were bound to Him no matter what. When He calls them His friends - within a day this bond would be tested by His death.

You cannot give anyone a greater gift than yourself in friendship. There is so much to say ... always follow Jesus. Most often your life will remain uneventful, but at times His friendship will demand everything you have PLUS + +. Empty is what you'll feel ... then gifted and blessed to be alive and sharing friendship with another.

Its been my experience that the best friends I have, were some of the crudest people I've ever met. It is a huge privilege to be loved by them.

Heather,

I am so grateful for people like you who gave riffraff like me the time of day, a supportive word, and had faith that I could do better.

Thanks,

from the riffraff

Your the mind that preaches for the option, and decision, to murder innocent human beings, Doug. You can't drip more blood then that.
Come to think of it Doug, since your a expert on using pessimism for others to murder their creation. Was acid used as a abortifacient when Jesus was being murdered by your brothers- in -vice?
When you think of yourself Doug, think of the thief on the cross with Jesus. You know, the one that was a thief, and a abortionist part time, and had nothing to be guilty or shameful of.
No guilt, no shame, no sorrow for Doug, being for the option of women killing the gift of life.
Hey, Doug, those are qualities a vicelord must have. Or, maybe a person who spreads pessimism to progress his preaching for women having the decision to kill as a choice.

to celebrate Bobby's joy and new beginnings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LCvK1auHvk&NR=1

GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!

AWWWWW, John and hippie, thanks. I have NEVER been one to make myself out to be "better" than anyone, but I have had others do it to me! I will admit my shortcomings. I have many. It's been so nice to receive support rather than condemnation. It works both ways. Truth is, some of my post abortive pals have been the nicest people to me. I just HATE abortion! Aside from that, we are friends. God made them too, right?

John, thank you for that beautiful song! I'm gonna watch it again!!! It gets me into the Holiday spirit!!

Crystal Lewis is fantastic!

yllas, do you think that you can possibly insult me?

You are a great asset for the Pro-Choice side.

Doug

Kudos to Bobby!

Bobby's wife just had the baby!!!

Umm... people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Posted by: Leah at November 14, 2007 8:54 PM ****************************************************** This includes you too.

Heather, dear, you seem to be taking everything very personally.

Yes, as a person I make judgments, as does everyone. For example, I judge smoking to be a bad and unhealthy thing. The difference is that while I condemn the act, I do not go around saying that smokers are bad people. Hate the sin, not the sinner kind of a deal.

So, yeah. Obviously that statement applies to ,e as well. The difference is that I make my best effort to live by it, while you make judgments left and right then snap out at Jacqueline for doing the same thing that you are.

But I'm not here to argue with you about that. I AM here to offer me congratulations to Bobby!!!

It get real simple Doug.
The difference between you and me is that you preach for death of innocent human beings, as a right of others.
Your just a mental cog of the culture of death Doug.
What consequences result from that preaching of you Doug, has no effect on your conscience.
Simply being a mental cog of the death of human beings, is what is known as a "killing professional".
Those that do abortions are "professional killers".
When you meet your conscience Doug, your sense of who you are, is as clean as those "killing professionals" of the Jews in Nazi Germany.
Your a idea man Doug. The men who set up the final solution for the Jews and euthanasia, never killed one Jew.
Heydrich, Dr. Mennecke, Dr, Brandt, Dr. Widmann, and hundreds of other doktors never killed one person.
They were the people who set up mass murder.
They never murdered one person.
They were the preachers for death.
They invented methods of mass murder.
They were killing professionals.
They never killed a single person Doug, just like you.
They never repented since their was nothing to repent about.
They never harmed a child, a dog, a cat, a mouse, in their life, which had worth or value, according to those killing professionals.
Just like you Doug.
Those that did the killing knew exactly what they were doing. Many repented or killed themself from trying to avoid what they were doing.
Which explains why many of the contemporary doktors of today, who committed abortion personally, have become for life.
But true idealoges, who never get blood on their hands preach for killing till they die.
Of course, those top "killing professionals" of today's abortion industry, get payed for their preaching.
Only a true believer, who gets not one penny from the abortion industry, can preach as you do Doug..
Then again Doug, do you profit off your culture of death you preach for? That might explain your being a agitational propagandist, who thinks of himself as not a killing professional.
Or maybe your a hypocrite who practices the professing of a belief,virtue, or vice, and does not hold that belief.
Which is the best which can be written about a killing professional, such as you Doug.

me too yllas! Can't I be a "killing professional" like Doug? I don't want to be left out of one of your tirades.

You insult yourself Doug. I show your insults to yourself. Your a great asset for pro life. Cat's in the Cradle Doug.
A life is beginning on this world for Bobby, and you spend your time insulting people about want and unwanted children. Predicting the future in as pessimistic way one can to do so your child has more oportunities then those "unwanted children". And the less competition for your child, the better the chances he can end up like you Doug. You sly devil, Doug.

How's your homophobia doing Hal?
Get cured yet, by doing the right thing on that pleasant Polynesian island? Or are you still being a one man kinda guy, from your fear of homosexuals?

BTW, Hal, your humor has a certain nostalgia about it. Care to tell me some Jew humor and how those killing professionals were making jokes about being killing professionals?
Or how about some homophobic humor jokes Hal?
We know your homophobic Hal.

Am I being realistic enough for ya Doug?
How it is really about your child climbing over those unwanted kids in class? How you tell your children the're wanted and those other children are unwanted by judging them from your position of moral authority, gained by being a person who preaches for death of unwanted kids. But not really, when Doug is shown his REALLY is..
How Doug is actually afraid of unwanted children(kill um in the womb), since they may infect his child with being pessimistic about life, from being unwanted by those that created them.
And how Doug spreads the idea of wanted and unwanted children as a fact of life, from being realistic to children/parents who know they were not loved or wanted..and never thinks it hurts their feelings or optimism.
Ya Doug, your a REAL WINNER, But, others know what you are. A person who wants their child to turn out just as you have climbing over the back of others by preaching gloom and doom while preaching optimism to your child.

Heather,

MK, I am sincerely asking you this question. What should I do? How should I do it? Should I tell them "you're riff raff, and I just can't be around you anymore."

I didn't mean to desert you last night...the headache was so bad it made me sick...

Only you can know when the benefit to your friends is outweighed by the danger to yourself.

If you can honestly say that they are not bringing you into situations that would tempt you or harm you, and you think that your influence is good for them, then by all means continue to be their friends.

And remember that you can be someones friend without spending enormous amounts of time with them. As long as you stick to your guns and aren't hangin' with them at strip clubs I'd say you were safe.

AB Laura (I think it was her) gave you the best advice. Ask the Big Guy, then do whatever he tells you.

I know for me that I can't be around people that are smoking pot. I can be around pot smokers, but not when they are imbibing. It's just not good for me. Are they still my friends? Sure. But I don't go with them when they sneak out to the alley to blow a doobie.

I'm also older now, and I don't "hang" out with a lot of people anyway. My friends all tend to be like me, but only because the rare times that I do go out, it's usually to a pro life dinner or event.

That and the fact that I'm in bed by 8:00 every night.

But I keep in touch with old friends and would be there for them in an instant. No matter what they were doing in their lives.

I don't know if this helped or not.

If you find that someone is truly a bad influence on you, the best thing to do is be there if they need you, but lessen the time you actually "spend" with them. Only you can know the answer to these questions.

yllas: The difference between you and me is that you preach for death of innocent human beings, as a right of others.

Nope, there you go again, pretending false things. You begin with a false premise and contruct large and sometimes elaborate fantasies built on untruth. You are on the anti-choice side, aren't you?

Okay, thank goodness.

Doug

yllas: A life is beginning on this world for Bobby, and you spend your time insulting people about want and unwanted children.

Nah - you're the one with the insults. I'm genuinely glad for Bobby and his wife and daughter, and have posted several times with that in mind. You, on the other hand, skulk around lamely trying to pick at people.

Doug

MK, thank you. I guess I can't make myself real clear over the internet. If you think that I'm hanging out with these people, you're wrong. I'm too busy. I'll really be busy in January when I go back to school. These people are former co-workers, neighbors, and yes, some are friends. However, we are talking about pot and temptation. I don't have to worry about that, but I damn sure know that they could never persuade me to have an abortion... Anyway, MK, I hope your H/A gets better. I take Imitrex for my migraines.

Actually, what I was wondering is this: Why do we talk to pro aborts every day? That's hanging out. It really is, so what is the difference?

Go check out the new movie Bella in theatres this weekend! It's an edifying story of the unmitigated value and dignity of human life.

Heather,

I do and did understand that you were not saying that these are all your close friends and that they are the only people you hang out with.

I think Jacquie may have gotten the wrong impression.

Of course, these are the people you bring up at Jill's because these are the people that are relevant to the topic.

I know what you mean about not "hangin' out" with anybody. If I do get a free moment, I want to spend it with my husband!

You're fine Heather. And if there is even the slightest chance that some of your "goodness" will rub off on your friends, then you go girl!

Okay, dropping it. Moving on.

Heather,

You can keep talking if you want. Personally, I think it's great that you serve as a witness to your friends. And I'll bet that sans the abortion issue, they have much to offer you too.

MK, I think I've beaten the dead horse, picked it back up, and beaten it back down again. It's not worth it.

Heather,

lol. Poor horse!

Neigh!!

Heather-

I'm sorry, I didn't see your comment until now.

Just speaking from my experience, I don't think you should go out of your way to avoid such people, and if you want to find them in order to help them out by all means (but be careful). I think it's just a judgment call, something I'm still trying to perfect myself.
When I see someone that avoids someone or blows them off for a personal problem I would not describe them as jesus-like, in fact I'd call them a snob. It's great that you know all kinds of different people. I'd say just be careful that you don't forget who you are. It's good to keep that separate, otherwise you may be involved yourself and then it's a mess to untangle. Listen to yourself-you would know a whole lot better than I would!!

And thanks about my friend :) It was a very difficult time, I had known her since preschool. She for some reason became extremely jealous of me, and manipulated me out of almost every relationship I had or was going to have. She would call me her best friend and I would just acquiesce. Then I discovered she lied to all of her friends that I didn't know so that they wouldn't like me. I discovered that most of the things she told me were lies. She would talk behind my back. And when I decided to get out of our friendship she made me feel like such a horrible person :/

PIP, thank you for your reply! I do understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you:}

PIP, RE: "friends"...I know it all too well. Plenty of snakes in the grass out there.

Well Doug,
Your presumptous knowledge about wanted and unwanted children,