I previously posted about the Aurora police threatening to arrest a man for praying on a sidewalk while walking his baby across the street from Planned Parenthood.

Well, Jeff Eschbach of ChicagoProLifeActivist shot video that day and has posted it on YouTube.

The video demonstrates that the clear violation of Roger Earl's First Amendment rights was worse than thought. A female police officer actually dared to ask him what he was praying about. Incredible.

Wow. That is just unbelievable.

Have any lawsuits been filed yet??

OK, Jill I am interested in watching this video, but it is going to slow and pausing in the middle. Tried to go directly to youtube, but alas same problem there...

It wasn't doing that for me, Midnite...do you have DSL? What you might want to do is push play on the video, then pause it, until all of the "buffering" is complete. If that's not the problem, I'm sure there's something else that you can do.

Bethany:

We've got DSL @ work, so I dont know what the problem is. It keeps pausing at 6 seconds. I dont understand.

couldn't watch it, too bloody. ;)

really, though, if he's telling the truth, the cops should have left him alone.

what WAS he praying about?

OK, I got it to work that time.

And Actually, I dont think his First Amendment Rights were violated.

Yes he was walking back and forth praying.

A police officer is not going to automatically know what he's doing. For all they know he could be crazy, staking a place out to rob or any other numerous illegal or dangerous activities.

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.

They didnt tell him he couldnt pray, which would have violated his first amendement rights.

And unless a video shows the officer clearly violating this right, a lawsuit would be laughed right out of court.

I wonder though, if he HAD been on the other side of the street "walking back and forth" praying if the cops would have stopped him and asked him what he was praying for. Even if he was praying for aliens to come take him away who cares. If the cops were truly threaten, which I doubt they were, then they should have ask him to leave. (Which maybe they did, I could barely hear what was going on in the video.)

1) He was a known protester, but hadn't joined the other protesters?

2) A lone man pushing a baby carriage? Even more weird if it was a weekday.

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

4) Cold enough so that he had a dark knit cap pulled low and a dark scarf wrapped high - IDEAL baby-strolling weather?

5) Stopping to pray spur-of-the-moment in the middle of a public sidewalk for no apparent reason? (Is it schizophrenia or a jihad?)

This guy would have set off every alarm in any law enforcement officer - especially in these times.
Bomb threats had been made. The cops had every reason to check out the guy who fit the perfect profile. Hell, they had an obligation to check out this guy.

Nonetheless I agree, this is ridiculous. Let the man pray, who is he hurting?!

Maybe the baby had a LOADED diaper....

2) A lone man pushing a baby carriage? Even more weird if it was a weekday.

So dad's aren't allowed to push their children in a baby carriage? It's not like the carriage was empty... His daughter was inside!

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

Again, who cares, i'm sure their are homes around this area.

4) Cold enough so that he had a dark knit cap pulled low and a dark scarf wrapped high - IDEAL baby-strolling weather?

It's Illinois and it WINTER! HELLO!!! I took my dog for a walk yesterday and did the same thing. Scarf and hat. If the man and wife want to go for a walk or leave the house what are they suppose to do. leave the baby alone?

5) Stopping to pray spur-of-the-moment in the middle of a public sidewalk for no apparent reason? (Is it schizophrenia or a jihad?)

There was a reason. He wanted to pray. No harm in that really.

Yes, JM he is not hurting anyone.

Hence why the officers stopped to ask him what the hell he was doing.

I personally would be appalled if an officer didnt stop and ask this man what he was doing.

And as much as I hate to agree with Laura; I do on this one.

He could have had a damn bomb or an AK47 under that jacket or in the baby stroller. I think you should stop and ask questions, even if you piss off the person. They would have thanked you if the officer had stopped a would be terrorist.

Nonetheless I agree, this is ridiculous. Let the man pray, who is he hurting?!

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:21 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I KNOW!
I was simply wearing my favorite burqa and carrying my "Death to Infidels" bookbag with batteries duct-taped to it, and the airport security gave me all kinds of static!
The freakin' NERVE!

Midnite 678 said: "They didnt tell him he couldnt pray, which would have violated his first amendement rights."

Um, yes, they did.

As Jill has written previously on this very blog, here's how a reporter from the Chicago Tribune described the events that transpired:

Police threatened to arrest a man praying and walking with his infant along the east side of Oakhurst, near a residential community.

"I wasn't planning to be part of the protest today," said Aurora resident Roger Earl. "I didn't realize that I was breaking any law by walking along the sidewalk praying."

Earl said he was near the protest because his wife was participating, and he was watching their infant. He said police approached him and asked him whether he was part of the protest, warned him twice and then threatened to arrest him.

Police spokesman Dan Ferrelli said Earl was praying and wearing an insignia indicating he opposed abortion.

[Aurora Police Chief William] Powell defended the police enforcement.

"If he's praying here, he's here because of the building. He can pray at home or anywhere," he said. [emphasis added]

I guess so, but when they found out he was harmless they should have let him be, which they did not.

OK, I didnt see the previous post about them threatening to arrest him. (I dont check this site every day guys, excuse me for living).

Yes they should have checked him to see what he was doing.

After that, they should have left him alone.

HAPPY?

This makes me appreciate the cops in my town a little bit more. They aren't so bad to prolifers, compared to some of Aurora's finest anyways.

Carrie:

I dont think the cops were picking on him b/c he was/is pro-life.

They stopped him to make sure he wasnt a threat to innocent people in the area.

Yeah they probably should have left him alone once he explained what he was doing, but honestly; can you blame them?

Violence against an abortion clinic isnt anything new. They were probably just being extra careful.

If a man was wandering aimlessly on the sidewalk in front of my home, mumbling to himself and pushing a baby carriage with no intended destination, I'd call the cops.

(Actually, just having a guy mumbling to himself while caring for an infant would set off a few alarms...)

He is walking in front of residences on a sidewalk - and there is a child in the stroller. Not exactly that strange.

Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity.

The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements. He states that he was pacing back and forth across the street from a protest that he isn't part of. Can you say stalking? I love how he admits that his wife is across the street and part of the protest. Yet just happens to be pacing back and forth directly across the street from a protest he has no interest in. @@ His interest was clearly not for his child or a need of prayer. The dude is simply a liar. His behavior suspicious and the police were correct in questioning him and urging him away.
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Of course it surprises Laura that a man could have a baby stroller...she doesn't hang around any family type guys. lol

Carrie wrote: Maybe the baby had a LOADED diaper....

And

JM, I completely agree with your posts! :)

Pushing a baby in a carriage would set off alarms, but chopping one to pieces would not...too sick, twisted and weird.

Not exactly on a par with the obvious suicide bombing scenario you invented to harass and discredit a man you have no legitimate reason to call guilty of anything but disagreeing with you...at least, not to any sane mind.

"Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity."

I have never heard of people having a phobia of Christianity. I think more people are afraid of other religions.

Q. What's both newer, older, and many times more common and deadly than violence against abortion mills?

A. Violence against innocent babies, and their moms in crisis, INSIDE them!

"Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt, if you ever go to a large urban area you will run into street schizophrenics who wander aimlessly and mumble to themselves. Sometimes they are dangerous. None of them should be in charge of an infant.
That man's behavior should have raised red flags.

While I was unable to attend the City Council meeting on Tuesday, here was the portion of my speech with addressed this issue.

***************************************

Now sadly, I wish that the rest of my time before you today could be more positive; however, I think it�s important that I bring something to your attention.

A few weeks ago we heard from Roger Earl, who was approached by several Police officers when he stopped to silently pray on the public sidewalk across the street from the clinic. The officers asked him if he was part of protest�to which he stated no. He was then asked what he was paying about.

This begs the question, why is the content of one�s personal and private prayers a matter of Police questioning? It seems, that the only logical reason would be is that the Police would use this to discriminate against Mr. Earl on this basis. Otherwise, why ask the question! To say, that the content of one silent prayer is allowed and another is not�is viewpoint discrimination.

Now the Police Chief was quoted in the Chicago Tribune as saying, "If he's praying here, he's here because of the building. He can pray at home or anywhere,"

Now we all know that the sidewalk across the street from the clinic is inclusive of anywhere.

Two meetings ago, Alderman Hart-Burns asked the Chief of Police, and I quote, �What does the law say in reference to one picketing or standing� But instead of answering the question, the Chief told this Council where he felt the public could stand and picket�and thereby ignoring to original question��what does the law say?�

Similarly, last month, signs were erected around the along Oakhurst drive near the clinic, stating that there was no, �Picketing or Protesting� beyond certain points � and cited a reference to the Aurora Ordinance.

So I thought I would bring to your attention today this Ordinance, and read the relevant portion �

Sec. 29-24. Certain picketing prohibited.
(a) It shall be unlawful to picket upon or across the public way from, adjacent to or in front of the personal residence or dwelling of any person;

It goes on to state that picketing is allowed in a residential area only when it is under construction, and that if a person violates this Ordinance, they are guilty of a misdemeanor.

Now, I am sure that we can all agree that all pickets are a form of protest, but not all protests are pickets. I would also submit to you that silent prayer is not a protest. No where in this Ordinance is the word �protest��nor is this word even found in the Aurora Municipal Code�yet this word is found its way onto the signs.

To midnite678@aol.com,

If security was their primary concern, then why didn�t the police search this man�s stroller? Then why did they ask him to move across the street IN FRONT of the CLINIC?

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.
They didnt tell him he couldnt

To say that one form of prayer (or the content thereof) is allowed and another is not, is viewpoint discrimination.

To Sally,

Roger’s wife was helping to reach out to the women in need that were entering the clinic. They have a 6 month old daughter, who was in the stroller. Roger’s wife, Elizabeth is currently nursing their daughter. Roger was not part of the picket on that day. He did not carry any signs, nor was he wearing anything visible that would indicate that he was part of the protest. Should their daughter need to feed, he wanted to be close to his wife. He is not a liar. He was not part of the protest on that day.

A. Violence against innocent babies, and their moms in crisis, INSIDE them!

Posted by: flynn at December 13, 2007 3:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Moms in crisis are INSIDE of innocent babies?

Sounds like cannibal turducken.

Sally said: "The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements...
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Sally,

Do you know Roger? 'Cause I do. He's a mensch.

Don't embarrass yourself by making comments about people you don't know.

To Laura - If a man was wandering aimlessly on the sidewalk in front of my home, mumbling to himself and pushing a baby carriage with no intended destination, I'd call the cops.

Roger was not approached by the police officers until he opened a prayer booklet.

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

One side of the street is residential (where he was walking) and the other side is business (where the clinic is)

Laura said:

"I KNOW!
I was simply wearing my favorite burqa and carrying my "Death to Infidels" bookbag with batteries duct-taped to it, and the airport security gave me all kinds of static!
The freakin' NERVE!"

If you can't tell the difference between that and a bundled up man pushing a baby carriage, then there is simply no way to converse with you. Your bigotry blinds you.

Thanks, Bethany.

To Sally,

Roger’s wife was helping to reach out to the women in need that were entering the clinic. They have a 6 month old daughter, who was in the stroller. Roger’s wife, Elizabeth is currently nursing their daughter. Roger was not part of the picket on that day. He did not carry any signs, nor was he wearing anything visible that would indicate that he was part of the protest. Should their daughter need to feed, he wanted to be close to his wife. He is not a liar. He was not part of the protest on that day.

Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:32 PM
..............................................................

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.

Watching this video one question came to my mind. No, trike that many question rushed through my mind... You see I was born and raised in former Soviet Union. At least there, if you were a Christian, you knew exactly who your enemy was.

Yes I can tell you many stories how people where persecuted just because they believe, just because they prayed or taught their children to do so.

However I think the sort of persecution that is happening today maybe worse from that int he former Soviet union. Or it will be soon. God save us.

Sally said: "The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements...
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Sally,

Do you know Roger? 'Cause I do. He's a mensch.

Don't embarrass yourself by making comments about people you don't know.

Posted by: John Jansen at December 13, 2007 3:34 PM
................................................

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.

"However I think the sort of persecution that is happening today maybe worse from that int he former Soviet union. Or it will be soon. God save us."

It is happening today in the US. It's happening to anyone who is NOT Christian. Verbally abused and judged by Christians. Some Christians want to force children of other religions to pray and read the bible.

To midnite678@aol.com,

If security was their primary concern, then why didn�t the police search this man�s stroller? Then why did they ask him to move across the street IN FRONT of the CLINIC?

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.
They didnt tell him he couldnt

To say that one form of prayer (or the content thereof) is allowed and another is not, is viewpoint discrimination.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:31 PM
................................................................................

Ridiculous Charles. If Roger's response was that he was praying for the bomb to go off after his wife left, the content of his prayer would be quite signifigant and the whole point of being asked.

Midnite, I think there may have been other things at play. It could be that they are not used to dealing with hot-button issues. They may have been following orders from higher-ups. They may be uninformed about constitutional issues. I do believe that a majority of it(or at least some of it) is a bias against prolifers. Perhaps this is a form of profiling.

If you can't tell the difference between that and a bundled up man pushing a baby carriage, then there is simply no way to converse with you. Your bigotry blinds you.

Posted by: Andy at December 13, 2007 4:04 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, try to get an unsearched baby stroller on to a plane.
Google "bomb baby stroller" or "bomb baby carriage." Apparently the baby buggy is a very popular delivery system for religious fanatics.

Define religious fanatic.

Are you going to be searched at an airport? Sure. We all know that, but a public street is a little strange.

That applies to someone like Jim Jones.

geez, now you can't even walk up and down the street which is across from the death mill. and praying? oh no, can't do that either.

OK, I'm just putting this out there as my thoughts on this. I've read the stories and now saw the video. I expect to be persecuted by BOTH sides here, but you know me...I just can't shut up!

I truly see both sides to this event. However, from "nursing experience", at 6 months, you KNOW when your baby is going to be hungry (every 4 hrs. or so?). Even if Roger was walking close to his wife in case his baby got hungry, I don't think his wife would have nursed the baby at the fence that she was standing at. It was really, really cold that day!

Secondly, that sidewalk, known to EVERY protester out there, is a "sore spot" for the police. I don't know why it is, but every protester KNOWS that that sidewalk, on that side of the street WILL bring contraversy. Now, does Roger have the right to be there if he's not actually involved in a protest? Of course. But, being that it was that cold outside, walking a baby in a stroller for 1/2 hour up and down a sidewalk that is approx 100 yds. in length...I sure as all heck would EXPECT an officer to question me, especially if the officers knew that I have been involved in protests before. Especially KNOWING, as Roger did, from being at many city hall meetings and many protests, the contraversial issues regarding that small sidewalk stretch on that side of the street. There is a nice, warm mall not even 5 minutes from there, not to mention a sidewalk on the "non-contraversial" side that wraps all the way around the block. That being said, IMO, as I would have chosen MANY other avenues to AVOID a conflict, this conflict could have easily been avoided.

Now, as far as the questioning about what he was praying about, it doesn't make much sense to me. I, however, would have welcomed it as an excellent opportunity to speak to the officer about the power of prayer (and talk to him/her about God, as you know I love to do!). I believe that if the police didn't go over to him and question him, they probably would have caught all types of flack from Alayne & Powell. Maybe they knew that they had to quetion him, but didn't really know what questions to ask? The reporters asked the same questions that I had. However, when the officer told him that he would be arrested if he didn't leave, I don't think that was right. But, if Roger would have stayed and incurred an arrest, it would have been a tough one to battle out in court especially in front of jury, given that he has been involved in so many protests and events in the past.

This all being said, I would rather avoid contraversy than "spark" it. Only God & Roger knew where Roger's heart/motives were that day. I, of course, am only speculating and would have done things differently that day.

AB Laura, maybe the pansy police should tell Powell and Alayne the law. I'm sure they know it better than those two. He was doing nothing wrong.

The area on the other side has a section where the sidewalk is missing. He probably thought it best to be on the other side in case some PCs started throwing things (which has been known to happen.)

I grew up in Aurora and SOME of the cops there are arrogant jerks. Powell probably picks the MOST arrogant when he decides who to post at the mill.

Heather,
I agree. But I sure wouldn't have a beautiful, 6-month old baby even THAT close to a protest if thought any danger could come to her!

I also agree with your statement about the cops out here. I TOTALLY agree with that..I did hear, however, that there are "good ones" out here. (location unknown). I'm sure Powell posted the arrogant ones there...or maybe the ones he didn't like! Anyway, they have been working without a contract since April of this year (I think it was April), so I do kinof feel sorry for them.

I also agree that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Contraversial...yes, well, maybe...but wrong...absolutely not!

**ducking with a "cringing" look on face**

At the mill in my town, the cops showed up a few weeks ago to make sure we were obeying the buffer zone law. I found some of them to be very nice and only one of them to be arrogant. The rest I didn't have an opinion of one way or another. I know for a fact that there are a few prolifers on the police force 'round here.

Totally off topic- Midnite, a couple of months ago I was in a really bad mood and I think I snapped at you pretty bad. I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, but just wanted to say, I'm sorry, and I hope you didn't take it personally. I know you didn't mean what you said the way I took it.

I wonder how many police officers/other law enforcement officals identify themselves as prolife. Does anyone have the stats on this?

should read *officials*

Carrie:

As interesting as that might be to know. I dont think there are stats on that particular group of people.

Both of my parents are pro choice and police officers.

Other than that, I've got no answer for you.
---------------------------------
Also, I dont think that their personal opinion on the matter has anything to do with job description.

The police officer that was killed by Rudolph's bomb in Birmingham was my mother's partner at one time. He was pro-choice but did security at the clinic b/c even though he didnt necessarily agree with what was going on, he didnt believe anyone should be hurt by exercising their free will and their right to chose. He died trying to protect people.

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?

Midnite, I was just curious. There are all kinds of prolife groups out there so I was wondering if there was one for people involved in law enforcement. (curious and nosy I suppose)

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?
Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 8:54 PM

You know something AB Laura? I didnt have a problem with you and though you polite up until this post.

He did die protecting ALL people; this clinic also provided a variety of services OTHER than abortions.
Here is a list of the services they provide:
Abnormal Pap Follow-up
Abortion Services - Medical
Abortion Services - Surgical
Adoption Counseling and Placement
Annual Exam
Birth Control: Pills, Condoms, Depo-Provera, etc.
Breast Exam
Counseling - Abortion
Counseling - Birth Control
Counseling - Pregnancy Options
Counseling - STD
Depo-Provera
Education
Emergency Contraception (EC)
High Blood Pressure Screening
HIV/AIDS Testing and Counseling
Immunizations
IUD
Male Health Services
NuvaRing
Patch (Ortho-Evra)
Pregnancy Testing and Counseling
Prenatal Care
Sexually Transmitted Infection Testing & Treatment
Sonogram
Vaginal Infection Testing & Treatment
Cancer Screening (Pap Test)
Coloscopy
Cryotherapy
Diabetes Screening
Hepatitis A & B Vaccine
Paragard
Post-Abortion Exam
Ultrasound
Urinary Tract Infection Diagnosis and Treatment
------------------------------------------
Also, this clinic only does abortions on Saturdays, and if I am correct in my math, the bomb was detonated during the week. He was killed in the line of duty! How dare you mock him or his death.

Your sentence just showed me the type of person that you are. Some Christian you are.

Thanks for showing your true colors.

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 8:54 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, no irony at all.

Frankly, I don't think you'd know honor if it marched up and bit you on the ass.

Carrie,

Since you are the only Civil, decent person on this site at the moment;

I have actually never checked to see if there were any stats on police officers and their opinion on abortion. It would be interesting to know, even though IMO I dont think it has anything to do with their job description. I'll see if I can find any stats on it tomorrow and I shall get back to you on it.

How is your night going? I took my LAST final @ 4:00 today and I am uber excited that his semester and statistics is over!

Laura,
Now biting me on the ass wouldn't BE honorable, would it now?

Also AB Laura:

In your line of thinking (if my logic is correct); any person that could have been killed in that bombing was irony and deserved it correct? Even if a woman (who had no health insurance) was going into the clinic to recieve pre natal care, or a person getting Ant-Viral drugs who had AIDS, or a woman getting a pregnancy test done (b/c this clinic does them for free)?

You are a GREAT example for your cause!
Have you met Jasper? Y'all should get along like white on rice....

Easy, midnite! I just said there was some wierd irony in his death. I most certainly don't condone ANYONE being killed for ANY reason. And yes, I do NOT support the death penalty. Saying it's ironic isn't a bad thing!

Ironic, yes...deserved ABSOLUTELY NOT!

And yes, there are MANY more honorable jobs out there for security guards to take if they REALLY want to protect ALL people. My version of what a person is and yours are obviously two different things.

Ease up! I'm not your enemy!

The police officer that was killed by Rudolph's bomb in Birmingham was my mother's partner at one time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My boyfriend is retired ATF, and I'm still deputized by the San Berdoo Sheriff's Dept.

I can't imagine worrying about my parents...

Midnite, I am actually pretty worried about my husband right now. We are in the midst of a pretty bad snow storm and he has to drive home in it. The snow has died down, but the roads don't look too good. He works over-time so I don't know exactly when he will get home. I bet it must be a relief to get finals over with.

I am thankful every day that my mother is retired. She worked for Birmingham (which as I stated before my fair city is now the 6th most dangerous in the Country).

My father works for Vestavia, a city outside of Birmingham, and the crime rate is not that bad. But yes, I worry every day that it might be the last that I talk to my father, although it has gotten better as I've gotten older. It can rack your nerves like no tomorrow.

When I lived at home every morning I would wake up and tell my mother and father that I loved them. I did this b/c if for some reason they were killed in the line of duty the last thing I said to them was that I loved them. I never let them leave for work with a bad attitude or smart-a$$ remark from me; just in case.

Carrie:

You have no idea the stress and cramming that has been lifted off of my shoulders.

I am sure your husband will be fine. I mean y'all must know how to drive in snow (unlike us Southerners that wreck everywhere when there is an inch of it).

Have you tried calling him?

AB Laura:

He was not a security guard, he was a certified Birmingham Police Officer.

Officers have always worked at that clinic b/c PL's are always threatening to bomb it. Do you think a "rent-a-cop" is prepared to deal with a bomb threat or a crazy shooter?

Carrie, do you live in the mid west?

Midnite, he just called. He is going to be delayed at work for a few hours which is for the best. By the time he leaves, the roads should be cleared. Talk to you later.

Sorry, have to throw my two cents in on this one:

"I truly see both sides to this event. However, from "nursing experience", at 6 months, you KNOW when your baby is going to be hungry (every 4 hrs. or so?). Even if Roger was walking close to his wife in case his baby got hungry, I don't think his wife would have nursed the baby at the fence that she was standing at."....

Not all babies fall into a schedule. My currently 8 month old goes from cluster nursing, to nursing every 4 hours exactly, to nursing strike as the mood strikes him. And I've nursed him standing in line at WalMart and while 'catching' the toddler on the slide at the playground.

You know you are a pro when you can nurse and push a cart full of food at the same time!

midnite,
I didn't realize that he was an actual police officer. PP Aurora uses rent-a-cops, so I assumed it was his "choice" to work there. Sorry...I'll retract my "irony" comment...there's no irony in that if he didn't choose to be there & it was just where he was assigned.

Either way, though...just for the record...his death was truly tragic, uncalled for, and definately not deserved.

Heather, I live in MA. I think we have close to a foot of snow! I am really exhausted from all that shoveling so I think it is time to go to bed.

Milehimama,
You are truly amazing!

God I wished it snowed here. Hasnt snowed at stuck since 99.....

AB Laura:

Yes he was an actual Police officer (I thought I made that clear, oh well). This clinic hires the B'ham P.D. to do security for them b/c of all of the bomb threats they get. He was assigned to work there, and didnt have the choice. But he swore to protect and serve....

I just wanted to say good night to everyone. It's been a good debate today, and we didn't allow Laura to hi jack the thread;] ha!

We have ice rain. I'd rather have snow. midnite, you're right. We fly through that snow like nothin. [driving] Some people in Florida "freak" driving in the rain.

midnite,
yes, you did say police officer (just caught that now), but I caught "doing security", so that's why I guess I thought it was a "second job" of sorts...whatever. Anyway, I do apologize for upsetting you...I didn't mean it. I also missed your 9:09 post until now. Wow! Please, going forward, if you think I said something offensive, please don't assume..just ask me! I'll be honest with you..I promise! Sometimes it's really hard to show emotion, put emphasis on certain words, less on others, etc. to get a thought across. So like I said, please, just ask me what I meant instead of assuming I'm the antichrist, please?

And for what it's worth, I had no idea that clinics actually get that many threats to where they would have to hire police officers, whether the officers like it or not! That must really suck! I'm really new to this whole thing, so bear with me...I'm learning something new every day!

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:06 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.

AB, not a problem. I dont think your the Antichrist, I promise....

And I am sorry, it's just that the police officer killed in that bombing was a very close friend of my family. He was like a surrogate Uncle to me. I was devastated when he died, as was my mother and father.

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:15 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me, again.

Here is the law on loitering.

Sec. 29-21. Loitering, obstruction of traffic or passersby.
(a) Any person who, after being warned by any police officer, shall congregate with another or others on any street, sidewalk or public way in the city in such a manner so as to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Given this, you cannot say that Rodger was attempting �to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic�

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.

Um, actually they can tell you where you can or can not stand. If said officer thinks that said person could be a threat to security, they can ask them to vacate the premises.

And I couldnt tell from the video if the police officer asked to look into the stroller or not. For all you or I know, she could have.

(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Hmmmmmm, by his own words he stated he was not involved in the protest, so therefore, he was no lawfully enaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.

He clearly does not meet 29-21B

midnite,
I'm sorry for you & your families loss. I promise I'll be more careful in posts going forward, to make sure when there is a death I use appropriate, clear wording of my thoughts. I have learned ANOTHER lesson here...Wow!

Regarding Roger, did the mother of the child run over to the baby for a feeding during this 1/2 hour he was on that sidewalk?

AB,

Not a problem at all. I must admit that (most of the time) I learn something new here every day. As they say "live and learn".

I am off to bed though. I must get more than four hours sleep tonight, finals have been killing me.

Charles,
I'll check in the morning to see if you've responded to me.

I just happen to be related to several cops, and I have met a huge number of their cop friends. They are, by and large, pro-choice and basically just wish the whole abortion issue would just go away.

The vast majority of cops I have met are on huge power trips and consider themselves above the law. They brag about how they abuse their power and get away with it. They are womanizers and proud of it. They are notorious for cheating on their wives and no doubt have been involved in abortions themselves.

I don't trust cops as far as I can throw them.

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:06 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:14 PM
......................................................................

You are ridiculous Charles. Roger pacing back and forth over the same patch of sidewalk is indeed suspicious or he would not have been questioned. It is that simple. And darling, I've been a parent for over 30 years. If a woman cannot be available for a feeding she provides breast milk or formula to the caretaker. The caretaker does not follow her around.
Was Roger afraid that Elizabeth was meeting another man at the protest? His hovering around across the street is really really weird.

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:15 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me, again.

Here is the law on loitering.

Sec. 29-21. Loitering, obstruction of traffic or passersby.
(a) Any person who, after being warned by any police officer, shall congregate with another or others on any street, sidewalk or public way in the city in such a manner so as to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Given this, you cannot say that Rodger was attempting �to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic�
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:18 PM
......................................................

Honey, Roger's behavior was that of a stalker. Forget the protest across the street. The fact that he was pacing back and forth across the street from where his wife was is creepy. Why not just join her? Ever hear of domestic violence Charles? Roger was behaving like an abusive control freak that wishes to 'catch' his wife in a punishable offense. Think that cops haven't seen this behavior before?
Roger is creepy Charles.

The vast majority of cops I have met are on huge power trips and consider themselves above the law. They brag about how they abuse their power and get away with it. They are womanizers and proud of it. They are notorious for cheating on their wives and no doubt have been involved in abortions themselves.

I don't trust cops as far as I can throw them.

Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2007 2:11 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gee, all the guys I know who really hate cops are chronic substance abusers or wife beaters.
Which one are you?

Sally,

I don’t know if you have been over to the location where the clinic is built. But I can tell, you that the street where Rodger was walking has a sidewalk. The other side has only a partial sidewalk. During the protest, people were protesting on this side of the street. Near the other side, there were several people picketing. Now, being a mother, you must know that young children like to be moving; in car stroller or otherwise. Given this, why is it so unreasonable that he didn’t want to walk his child up and down an unpaved plot and a sidewalk full of people? Would you rather have him walk his child up and down the access road in front of the clinic? (You know, which your unfounded ascertain that there could be a bomb in that stroller?)

Also, have you ever personally met Roger? I have. And he is not creepy. So where is your basis for this comment?

Midnite678,

Since he was not “impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic”, he is not required to be in a parade etc. You need to read the entire section, not just the portions which you like.

As a mother who has breastfed all of her children, I don't think that there is anything weird about a guy keeping the baby happy until feeding time. I have fed my babies in public many times.... While I try to keep away from others as much as possible, sometimes there are situations where you have to feed the baby and there is no private place to do so.... That is why they make those little cover things to wear...that way no one sees what you're doing. You can be really, really discreet. They also make Motherhood wear where you could be breastfeeding and it looks like you're just holding your baby. So I don't find it hard to believe that she would have gone over and fed the baby for 15-30 minutes, then walked back over to the protest. Of course, that's just me.

If the cops were really that suspicious of the man, or felt there was anything truly dangerous in that buggy, I feel that they could have searched it. And how would moving him across the street help anything if there was a bomb in it? A bomb could potentially still hurt people on the other side of the street, just as it could have on that side. So Sally and Laura, if they were really that concerned that there was a bomb or other threat in the buggy, why didn't they tell the guy to leave the area completely, not just across the street?

Or whatever police do when they genuinely suspect a bomb is in an area.

It's like any occupation. There are good cops and bad ones. Most are there to protect and serve. These cops should have found bigger fish to fry. As far as cops being wife beaters? Of course! However, that's not always true. I know a lot of cops. They are good guys, and they have a tough job.

*oops* meant to say..Of course, some are. [above post] directed at Laura.

It's like abortionists. There are bad abortionists, and there are horrible abortionists.

There are mentally ill abortionists, and there are child molesting abortionists.

There are abortionists who disrespect women, and then there are abortionists who despise women.

Since he was not “impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic”, he is not required to be in a parade etc. You need to read the entire section, not just the portions which you like.

Posted by: Charles at December 14, 2007 7:24 AM
-------------------------------------

Charles I read the entire section. I am not reading the portions that I like either. I was merely pointing out that he did not meet subsection B's criteria.

You need to calm down a bit.

Laura, I'm sure that flynn meant, of course, that the babies and the moms in crisis are both inside the abortion mills. Given the context, only an irrational, hatemongering screwball like you could misconstrue that.
You are so much more sick, twisted, meanspirited just for the sake of being meanspirited, and stupid than even I had previously given you credit for.

Sorry I underrated you in those regards; I assure you that it won't happen again.

Sally honey, ease up. Roger is by no means a stalker. I know him. I have pushed strollers up and down the street, through stores, etc, rather aimlessly hundreds of times while waiting for my wife. And not while waiting to "catch" her in "the act" but waiting for her to "try on a coat" or "return something to the service desk." I suppose that by applying your standard, that I will soon join Roger in the lock up as a stalker.

The APD is overreaching for a variety of reasons: poor (bombastic) leadership, incredibly bad legal advice from inept counsel, and that occasional cop 'power trip' trait. Quite a hat trick.

You GO, jtm !!!

jtm, GREAT POST. That chick is a nut!

« previous entry | return home | next entry »

December 13, 2007
Aurora prayer interrogation
I previously posted about the Aurora police threatening to arrest a man for praying on a sidewalk while walking his baby across the street from Planned Parenthood.

Well, Jeff Eschbach of ChicagoProLifeActivist shot video that day and has posted it on YouTube.

The video demonstrates that the clear violation of Roger Earl's First Amendment rights was worse than thought. A female police officer actually dared to ask him what he was praying about. Incredible.

posted on December 13, 2007 12:16 PM

Trackback Pings:

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.jillstanek.com/mt/mt-tr.cgi/1337

Comments:

Wow. That is just unbelievable.

Have any lawsuits been filed yet??
Posted by: Bethany at December 13, 2007 12:59 PM

OK, Jill I am interested in watching this video, but it is going to slow and pausing in the middle. Tried to go directly to youtube, but alas same problem there...

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 1:14 PM

It wasn't doing that for me, Midnite...do you have DSL? What you might want to do is push play on the video, then pause it, until all of the "buffering" is complete. If that's not the problem, I'm sure there's something else that you can do.
Posted by: Bethany at December 13, 2007 1:27 PM

Bethany:

We've got DSL @ work, so I dont know what the problem is. It keeps pausing at 6 seconds. I dont understand.

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 1:56 PM

couldn't watch it, too bloody. ;)

really, though, if he's telling the truth, the cops should have left him alone.

what WAS he praying about?

Posted by: Hal at December 13, 2007 1:58 PM

OK, I got it to work that time.

And Actually, I dont think his First Amendment Rights were violated.

Yes he was walking back and forth praying.

A police officer is not going to automatically know what he's doing. For all they know he could be crazy, staking a place out to rob or any other numerous illegal or dangerous activities.

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.

They didnt tell him he couldnt pray, which would have violated his first amendement rights.

And unless a video shows the officer clearly violating this right, a lawsuit would be laughed right out of court.

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 2:07 PM

I wonder though, if he HAD been on the other side of the street "walking back and forth" praying if the cops would have stopped him and asked him what he was praying for. Even if he was praying for aliens to come take him away who cares. If the cops were truly threaten, which I doubt they were, then they should have ask him to leave. (Which maybe they did, I could barely hear what was going on in the video.)

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:17 PM

1) He was a known protester, but hadn't joined the other protesters?

2) A lone man pushing a baby carriage? Even more weird if it was a weekday.

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

4) Cold enough so that he had a dark knit cap pulled low and a dark scarf wrapped high - IDEAL baby-strolling weather?

5) Stopping to pray spur-of-the-moment in the middle of a public sidewalk for no apparent reason? (Is it schizophrenia or a jihad?)

This guy would have set off every alarm in any law enforcement officer - especially in these times.
Bomb threats had been made. The cops had every reason to check out the guy who fit the perfect profile. Hell, they had an obligation to check out this guy.

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 2:18 PM

Nonetheless I agree, this is ridiculous. Let the man pray, who is he hurting?!

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:21 PM

Maybe the baby had a LOADED diaper....

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 2:25 PM

2) A lone man pushing a baby carriage? Even more weird if it was a weekday.

So dad's aren't allowed to push their children in a baby carriage? It's not like the carriage was empty... His daughter was inside!

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

Again, who cares, i'm sure their are homes around this area.

4) Cold enough so that he had a dark knit cap pulled low and a dark scarf wrapped high - IDEAL baby-strolling weather?

It's Illinois and it WINTER! HELLO!!! I took my dog for a walk yesterday and did the same thing. Scarf and hat. If the man and wife want to go for a walk or leave the house what are they suppose to do. leave the baby alone?

5) Stopping to pray spur-of-the-moment in the middle of a public sidewalk for no apparent reason? (Is it schizophrenia or a jihad?)

There was a reason. He wanted to pray. No harm in that really.

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:26 PM

Yes, JM he is not hurting anyone.

Hence why the officers stopped to ask him what the hell he was doing.

I personally would be appalled if an officer didnt stop and ask this man what he was doing.

And as much as I hate to agree with Laura; I do on this one.

He could have had a damn bomb or an AK47 under that jacket or in the baby stroller. I think you should stop and ask questions, even if you piss off the person. They would have thanked you if the officer had stopped a would be terrorist.

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 2:28 PM

Nonetheless I agree, this is ridiculous. Let the man pray, who is he hurting?!

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:21 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I KNOW!
I was simply wearing my favorite burqa and carrying my "Death to Infidels" bookbag with batteries duct-taped to it, and the airport security gave me all kinds of static!
The freakin' NERVE!

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 2:29 PM

Midnite 678 said: "They didnt tell him he couldnt pray, which would have violated his first amendement rights."

Um, yes, they did.

As Jill has written previously on this very blog, here's how a reporter from the Chicago Tribune described the events that transpired:

Police threatened to arrest a man praying and walking with his infant along the east side of Oakhurst, near a residential community.
"I wasn't planning to be part of the protest today," said Aurora resident Roger Earl. "I didn't realize that I was breaking any law by walking along the sidewalk praying."

Earl said he was near the protest because his wife was participating, and he was watching their infant. He said police approached him and asked him whether he was part of the protest, warned him twice and then threatened to arrest him.

Police spokesman Dan Ferrelli said Earl was praying and wearing an insignia indicating he opposed abortion.

[Aurora Police Chief William] Powell defended the police enforcement.

"If he's praying here, he's here because of the building. He can pray at home or anywhere," he said. [emphasis added]

Posted by: John Jansen at December 13, 2007 2:29 PM

I guess so, but when they found out he was harmless they should have let him be, which they did not.

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 2:30 PM

OK, I didnt see the previous post about them threatening to arrest him. (I dont check this site every day guys, excuse me for living).

Yes they should have checked him to see what he was doing.

After that, they should have left him alone.

HAPPY?

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 2:34 PM

This makes me appreciate the cops in my town a little bit more. They aren't so bad to prolifers, compared to some of Aurora's finest anyways.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 2:39 PM

Carrie:

I dont think the cops were picking on him b/c he was/is pro-life.

They stopped him to make sure he wasnt a threat to innocent people in the area.

Yeah they probably should have left him alone once he explained what he was doing, but honestly; can you blame them?

Violence against an abortion clinic isnt anything new. They were probably just being extra careful.

Posted by: midnite678@aol.com at December 13, 2007 2:44 PM

If a man was wandering aimlessly on the sidewalk in front of my home, mumbling to himself and pushing a baby carriage with no intended destination, I'd call the cops.

(Actually, just having a guy mumbling to himself while caring for an infant would set off a few alarms...)

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 2:51 PM

He is walking in front of residences on a sidewalk - and there is a child in the stroller. Not exactly that strange.

Posted by: Milehimama at December 13, 2007 2:53 PM

Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity.

Posted by: Matthew at December 13, 2007 3:04 PM

The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements. He states that he was pacing back and forth across the street from a protest that he isn't part of. Can you say stalking? I love how he admits that his wife is across the street and part of the protest. Yet just happens to be pacing back and forth directly across the street from a protest he has no interest in. @@ His interest was clearly not for his child or a need of prayer. The dude is simply a liar. His behavior suspicious and the police were correct in questioning him and urging him away.
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 3:05 PM

Of course it surprises Laura that a man could have a baby stroller...she doesn't hang around any family type guys. lol

Carrie wrote: Maybe the baby had a LOADED diaper....

And

JM, I completely agree with your posts! :)

Posted by: Bethany at December 13, 2007 3:06 PM

Pushing a baby in a carriage would set off alarms, but chopping one to pieces would not...too sick, twisted and weird.

Not exactly on a par with the obvious suicide bombing scenario you invented to harass and discredit a man you have no legitimate reason to call guilty of anything but disagreeing with you...at least, not to any sane mind.

Posted by: say what?! at December 13, 2007 3:08 PM

"Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity."

I have never heard of people having a phobia of Christianity. I think more people are afraid of other religions.

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 3:08 PM

Q. What's both newer, older, and many times more common and deadly than violence against abortion mills?

A. Violence against innocent babies, and their moms in crisis, INSIDE them!

Posted by: flynn at December 13, 2007 3:12 PM

"Of course there are some people who would find his behavior strange. They're often the same people who are phobic of religion, specifically Christianity."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt, if you ever go to a large urban area you will run into street schizophrenics who wander aimlessly and mumble to themselves. Sometimes they are dangerous. None of them should be in charge of an infant.
That man's behavior should have raised red flags.

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 3:21 PM

While I was unable to attend the City Council meeting on Tuesday, here was the portion of my speech with addressed this issue.

***************************************

Now sadly, I wish that the rest of my time before you today could be more positive; however, I think it�s important that I bring something to your attention.

A few weeks ago we heard from Roger Earl, who was approached by several Police officers when he stopped to silently pray on the public sidewalk across the street from the clinic. The officers asked him if he was part of protest�to which he stated no. He was then asked what he was paying about.

This begs the question, why is the content of one�s personal and private prayers a matter of Police questioning? It seems, that the only logical reason would be is that the Police would use this to discriminate against Mr. Earl on this basis. Otherwise, why ask the question! To say, that the content of one silent prayer is allowed and another is not�is viewpoint discrimination.

Now the Police Chief was quoted in the Chicago Tribune as saying, "If he's praying here, he's here because of the building. He can pray at home or anywhere,"

Now we all know that the sidewalk across the street from the clinic is inclusive of anywhere.

Two meetings ago, Alderman Hart-Burns asked the Chief of Police, and I quote, �What does the law say in reference to one picketing or standing� But instead of answering the question, the Chief told this Council where he felt the public could stand and picket�and thereby ignoring to original question��what does the law say?�

Similarly, last month, signs were erected around the along Oakhurst drive near the clinic, stating that there was no, �Picketing or Protesting� beyond certain points � and cited a reference to the Aurora Ordinance.

So I thought I would bring to your attention today this Ordinance, and read the relevant portion �

Sec. 29-24. Certain picketing prohibited.
(a) It shall be unlawful to picket upon or across the public way from, adjacent to or in front of the personal residence or dwelling of any person;

It goes on to state that picketing is allowed in a residential area only when it is under construction, and that if a person violates this Ordinance, they are guilty of a misdemeanor.

Now, I am sure that we can all agree that all pickets are a form of protest, but not all protests are pickets. I would also submit to you that silent prayer is not a protest. No where in this Ordinance is the word �protest��nor is this word even found in the Aurora Municipal Code�yet this word is found its way onto the signs.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:30 PM

To midnite678@aol.com,

If security was their primary concern, then why didn�t the police search this man�s stroller? Then why did they ask him to move across the street IN FRONT of the CLINIC?

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.
They didnt tell him he couldnt

To say that one form of prayer (or the content thereof) is allowed and another is not, is viewpoint discrimination.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:31 PM

To Sally,

Roger’s wife was helping to reach out to the women in need that were entering the clinic. They have a 6 month old daughter, who was in the stroller. Roger’s wife, Elizabeth is currently nursing their daughter. Roger was not part of the picket on that day. He did not carry any signs, nor was he wearing anything visible that would indicate that he was part of the protest. Should their daughter need to feed, he wanted to be close to his wife. He is not a liar. He was not part of the protest on that day.

Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:32 PM

A. Violence against innocent babies, and their moms in crisis, INSIDE them!

Posted by: flynn at December 13, 2007 3:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Moms in crisis are INSIDE of innocent babies?

Sounds like cannibal turducken.

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 3:33 PM

Sally said: "The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements...
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Sally,

Do you know Roger? 'Cause I do. He's a mensch.

Don't embarrass yourself by making comments about people you don't know.

Posted by: John Jansen at December 13, 2007 3:34 PM

To Laura - If a man was wandering aimlessly on the sidewalk in front of my home, mumbling to himself and pushing a baby carriage with no intended destination, I'd call the cops.

Roger was not approached by the police officers until he opened a prayer booklet.

3) Taking a baby strolling in a commercial rather than a residential zone?

One side of the street is residential (where he was walking) and the other side is business (where the clinic is)

Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:38 PM

Laura said:

"I KNOW!
I was simply wearing my favorite burqa and carrying my "Death to Infidels" bookbag with batteries duct-taped to it, and the airport security gave me all kinds of static!
The freakin' NERVE!"

If you can't tell the difference between that and a bundled up man pushing a baby carriage, then there is simply no way to converse with you. Your bigotry blinds you.

Posted by: Andy at December 13, 2007 4:04 PM

Thanks, Bethany.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 4:09 PM

To Sally,

Roger’s wife was helping to reach out to the women in need that were entering the clinic. They have a 6 month old daughter, who was in the stroller. Roger’s wife, Elizabeth is currently nursing their daughter. Roger was not part of the picket on that day. He did not carry any signs, nor was he wearing anything visible that would indicate that he was part of the protest. Should their daughter need to feed, he wanted to be close to his wife. He is not a liar. He was not part of the protest on that day.

Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:32 PM
..............................................................

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.

Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:06 PM

Watching this video one question came to my mind. No, trike that many question rushed through my mind... You see I was born and raised in former Soviet Union. At least there, if you were a Christian, you knew exactly who your enemy was.

Yes I can tell you many stories how people where persecuted just because they believe, just because they prayed or taught their children to do so.

However I think the sort of persecution that is happening today maybe worse from that int he former Soviet union. Or it will be soon. God save us.

Posted by: Vlad at December 13, 2007 5:10 PM

Sally said: "The video contains no dialogue of the police. Just this goofy guy's rather agitated statements...
I can't believe Jill is bringing this ridiculous man's behavior up again.

Sally,

Do you know Roger? 'Cause I do. He's a mensch.

Don't embarrass yourself by making comments about people you don't know.

Posted by: John Jansen at December 13, 2007 3:34 PM
................................................

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.

Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:15 PM

"However I think the sort of persecution that is happening today maybe worse from that int he former Soviet union. Or it will be soon. God save us."

It is happening today in the US. It's happening to anyone who is NOT Christian. Verbally abused and judged by Christians. Some Christians want to force children of other religions to pray and read the bible.

Posted by: JM at December 13, 2007 5:17 PM

To midnite678@aol.com,

If security was their primary concern, then why didn�t the police search this man�s stroller? Then why did they ask him to move across the street IN FRONT of the CLINIC?

Yes the officer asked what he was praying about. That is a logical line of questioning for a police officer. As I stated, he could have been crazy and praying "for aliens to come take him away" for all he/she knew.
They didnt tell him he couldnt

To say that one form of prayer (or the content thereof) is allowed and another is not, is viewpoint discrimination.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 3:31 PM
................................................................................

Ridiculous Charles. If Roger's response was that he was praying for the bomb to go off after his wife left, the content of his prayer would be quite signifigant and the whole point of being asked.

Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:19 PM

Midnite, I think there may have been other things at play. It could be that they are not used to dealing with hot-button issues. They may have been following orders from higher-ups. They may be uninformed about constitutional issues. I do believe that a majority of it(or at least some of it) is a bias against prolifers. Perhaps this is a form of profiling.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 5:50 PM

If you can't tell the difference between that and a bundled up man pushing a baby carriage, then there is simply no way to converse with you. Your bigotry blinds you.

Posted by: Andy at December 13, 2007 4:04 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, try to get an unsearched baby stroller on to a plane.
Google "bomb baby stroller" or "bomb baby carriage." Apparently the baby buggy is a very popular delivery system for religious fanatics.

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 6:20 PM

Define religious fanatic.

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 6:26 PM

Are you going to be searched at an airport? Sure. We all know that, but a public street is a little strange.

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 6:27 PM

That applies to someone like Jim Jones.

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 6:38 PM

geez, now you can't even walk up and down the street which is across from the death mill. and praying? oh no, can't do that either.
Posted by: jasper at December 13, 2007 7:20 PM

OK, I'm just putting this out there as my thoughts on this. I've read the stories and now saw the video. I expect to be persecuted by BOTH sides here, but you know me...I just can't shut up!

I truly see both sides to this event. However, from "nursing experience", at 6 months, you KNOW when your baby is going to be hungry (every 4 hrs. or so?). Even if Roger was walking close to his wife in case his baby got hungry, I don't think his wife would have nursed the baby at the fence that she was standing at. It was really, really cold that day!

Secondly, that sidewalk, known to EVERY protester out there, is a "sore spot" for the police. I don't know why it is, but every protester KNOWS that that sidewalk, on that side of the street WILL bring contraversy. Now, does Roger have the right to be there if he's not actually involved in a protest? Of course. But, being that it was that cold outside, walking a baby in a stroller for 1/2 hour up and down a sidewalk that is approx 100 yds. in length...I sure as all heck would EXPECT an officer to question me, especially if the officers knew that I have been involved in protests before. Especially KNOWING, as Roger did, from being at many city hall meetings and many protests, the contraversial issues regarding that small sidewalk stretch on that side of the street. There is a nice, warm mall not even 5 minutes from there, not to mention a sidewalk on the "non-contraversial" side that wraps all the way around the block. That being said, IMO, as I would have chosen MANY other avenues to AVOID a conflict, this conflict could have easily been avoided.

Now, as far as the questioning about what he was praying about, it doesn't make much sense to me. I, however, would have welcomed it as an excellent opportunity to speak to the officer about the power of prayer (and talk to him/her about God, as you know I love to do!). I believe that if the police didn't go over to him and question him, they probably would have caught all types of flack from Alayne & Powell. Maybe they knew that they had to quetion him, but didn't really know what questions to ask? The reporters asked the same questions that I had. However, when the officer told him that he would be arrested if he didn't leave, I don't think that was right. But, if Roger would have stayed and incurred an arrest, it would have been a tough one to battle out in court especially in front of jury, given that he has been involved in so many protests and events in the past.

This all being said, I would rather avoid contraversy than "spark" it. Only God & Roger knew where Roger's heart/motives were that day. I, of course, am only speculating and would have done things differently that day.

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 7:23 PM

AB Laura, maybe the pansy police should tell Powell and Alayne the law. I'm sure they know it better than those two. He was doing nothing wrong.

The area on the other side has a section where the sidewalk is missing. He probably thought it best to be on the other side in case some PCs started throwing things (which has been known to happen.)

I grew up in Aurora and SOME of the cops there are arrogant jerks. Powell probably picks the MOST arrogant when he decides who to post at the mill.

Posted by: Kristen at December 13, 2007 7:34 PM

Heather,
I agree. But I sure wouldn't have a beautiful, 6-month old baby even THAT close to a protest if thought any danger could come to her!

I also agree with your statement about the cops out here. I TOTALLY agree with that..I did hear, however, that there are "good ones" out here. (location unknown). I'm sure Powell posted the arrogant ones there...or maybe the ones he didn't like! Anyway, they have been working without a contract since April of this year (I think it was April), so I do kinof feel sorry for them.

I also agree that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Contraversial...yes, well, maybe...but wrong...absolutely not!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 7:42 PM

**ducking with a "cringing" look on face**

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 7:46 PM

At the mill in my town, the cops showed up a few weeks ago to make sure we were obeying the buffer zone law. I found some of them to be very nice and only one of them to be arrogant. The rest I didn't have an opinion of one way or another. I know for a fact that there are a few prolifers on the police force 'round here.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 8:09 PM

Totally off topic- Midnite, a couple of months ago I was in a really bad mood and I think I snapped at you pretty bad. I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, but just wanted to say, I'm sorry, and I hope you didn't take it personally. I know you didn't mean what you said the way I took it.

Posted by: Bethany at December 13, 2007 8:15 PM

I wonder how many police officers/other law enforcement officals identify themselves as prolife. Does anyone have the stats on this?

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 8:22 PM

should read *officials*

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 8:26 PM

Carrie:

As interesting as that might be to know. I dont think there are stats on that particular group of people.

Both of my parents are pro choice and police officers.

Other than that, I've got no answer for you.
---------------------------------
Also, I dont think that their personal opinion on the matter has anything to do with job description.

The police officer that was killed by Rudolph's bomb in Birmingham was my mother's partner at one time. He was pro-choice but did security at the clinic b/c even though he didnt necessarily agree with what was going on, he didnt believe anyone should be hurt by exercising their free will and their right to chose. He died trying to protect people.

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 8:50 PM

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 8:54 PM

Midnite, I was just curious. There are all kinds of prolife groups out there so I was wondering if there was one for people involved in law enforcement. (curious and nosy I suppose)

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 9:00 PM

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?
Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 8:54 PM

You know something AB Laura? I didnt have a problem with you and though you polite up until this post.

He did die protecting ALL people; this clinic also provided a variety of services OTHER than abortions.
Here is a list of the services they provide:
Abnormal Pap Follow-up
Abortion Services - Medical
Abortion Services - Surgical
Adoption Counseling and Placement
Annual Exam
Birth Control: Pills, Condoms, Depo-Provera, etc.
Breast Exam
Counseling - Abortion
Counseling - Birth Control
Counseling - Pregnancy Options
Counseling - STD
Depo-Provera
Education
Emergency Contraception (EC)
High Blood Pressure Screening
HIV/AIDS Testing and Counseling
Immunizations
IUD
Male Health Services
NuvaRing
Patch (Ortho-Evra)
Pregnancy Testing and Counseling
Prenatal Care
Sexually Transmitted Infection Testing & Treatment
Sonogram
Vaginal Infection Testing & Treatment
Cancer Screening (Pap Test)
Coloscopy
Cryotherapy
Diabetes Screening
Hepatitis A & B Vaccine
Paragard
Post-Abortion Exam
Ultrasound
Urinary Tract Infection Diagnosis and Treatment
------------------------------------------
Also, this clinic only does abortions on Saturdays, and if I am correct in my math, the bomb was detonated during the week. He was killed in the line of duty! How dare you mock him or his death.

Your sentence just showed me the type of person that you are. Some Christian you are.

Thanks for showing your true colors.

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:09 PM

midnite,
I think it would have been more honorable for him to die protecting ALL people...this includes the very babies he obviously didn't give a crap about! It's not like that was the only job out there! Kindof a wierd irony in his death, huh?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 8:54 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, no irony at all.

Frankly, I don't think you'd know honor if it marched up and bit you on the ass.
Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 9:09 PM

Carrie,

Since you are the only Civil, decent person on this site at the moment;

I have actually never checked to see if there were any stats on police officers and their opinion on abortion. It would be interesting to know, even though IMO I dont think it has anything to do with their job description. I'll see if I can find any stats on it tomorrow and I shall get back to you on it.

How is your night going? I took my LAST final @ 4:00 today and I am uber excited that his semester and statistics is over!

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:11 PM

Laura,
Now biting me on the ass wouldn't BE honorable, would it now?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 9:14 PM

Also AB Laura:

In your line of thinking (if my logic is correct); any person that could have been killed in that bombing was irony and deserved it correct? Even if a woman (who had no health insurance) was going into the clinic to recieve pre natal care, or a person getting Ant-Viral drugs who had AIDS, or a woman getting a pregnancy test done (b/c this clinic does them for free)?

You are a GREAT example for your cause!
Have you met Jasper? Y'all should get along like white on rice....

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:16 PM

Easy, midnite! I just said there was some wierd irony in his death. I most certainly don't condone ANYONE being killed for ANY reason. And yes, I do NOT support the death penalty. Saying it's ironic isn't a bad thing!

Ironic, yes...deserved ABSOLUTELY NOT!

And yes, there are MANY more honorable jobs out there for security guards to take if they REALLY want to protect ALL people. My version of what a person is and yours are obviously two different things.

Ease up! I'm not your enemy!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 9:23 PM

The police officer that was killed by Rudolph's bomb in Birmingham was my mother's partner at one time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My boyfriend is retired ATF, and I'm still deputized by the San Berdoo Sheriff's Dept.

I can't imagine worrying about my parents...

Posted by: Laura at December 13, 2007 9:24 PM

Midnite, I am actually pretty worried about my husband right now. We are in the midst of a pretty bad snow storm and he has to drive home in it. The snow has died down, but the roads don't look too good. He works over-time so I don't know exactly when he will get home. I bet it must be a relief to get finals over with.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 9:26 PM

I am thankful every day that my mother is retired. She worked for Birmingham (which as I stated before my fair city is now the 6th most dangerous in the Country).

My father works for Vestavia, a city outside of Birmingham, and the crime rate is not that bad. But yes, I worry every day that it might be the last that I talk to my father, although it has gotten better as I've gotten older. It can rack your nerves like no tomorrow.

When I lived at home every morning I would wake up and tell my mother and father that I loved them. I did this b/c if for some reason they were killed in the line of duty the last thing I said to them was that I loved them. I never let them leave for work with a bad attitude or smart-a$$ remark from me; just in case.

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:28 PM

Carrie:

You have no idea the stress and cramming that has been lifted off of my shoulders.

I am sure your husband will be fine. I mean y'all must know how to drive in snow (unlike us Southerners that wreck everywhere when there is an inch of it).

Have you tried calling him?

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:33 PM

AB Laura:

He was not a security guard, he was a certified Birmingham Police Officer.

Officers have always worked at that clinic b/c PL's are always threatening to bomb it. Do you think a "rent-a-cop" is prepared to deal with a bomb threat or a crazy shooter?

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 9:39 PM

Carrie, do you live in the mid west?

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 9:39 PM

Midnite, he just called. He is going to be delayed at work for a few hours which is for the best. By the time he leaves, the roads should be cleared. Talk to you later.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 9:47 PM

Sorry, have to throw my two cents in on this one:

"I truly see both sides to this event. However, from "nursing experience", at 6 months, you KNOW when your baby is going to be hungry (every 4 hrs. or so?). Even if Roger was walking close to his wife in case his baby got hungry, I don't think his wife would have nursed the baby at the fence that she was standing at."....

Not all babies fall into a schedule. My currently 8 month old goes from cluster nursing, to nursing every 4 hours exactly, to nursing strike as the mood strikes him. And I've nursed him standing in line at WalMart and while 'catching' the toddler on the slide at the playground.

You know you are a pro when you can nurse and push a cart full of food at the same time!

Posted by: Milehimama at December 13, 2007 9:51 PM

midnite,
I didn't realize that he was an actual police officer. PP Aurora uses rent-a-cops, so I assumed it was his "choice" to work there. Sorry...I'll retract my "irony" comment...there's no irony in that if he didn't choose to be there & it was just where he was assigned.

Either way, though...just for the record...his death was truly tragic, uncalled for, and definately not deserved.

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 9:52 PM

Heather, I live in MA. I think we have close to a foot of snow! I am really exhausted from all that shoveling so I think it is time to go to bed.

Posted by: Carrie at December 13, 2007 9:54 PM

Milehimama,
You are truly amazing!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 9:54 PM

God I wished it snowed here. Hasnt snowed at stuck since 99.....

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:01 PM

AB Laura:

Yes he was an actual Police officer (I thought I made that clear, oh well). This clinic hires the B'ham P.D. to do security for them b/c of all of the bomb threats they get. He was assigned to work there, and didnt have the choice. But he swore to protect and serve....

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:05 PM

I just wanted to say good night to everyone. It's been a good debate today, and we didn't allow Laura to hi jack the thread;] ha!

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 10:08 PM

We have ice rain. I'd rather have snow. midnite, you're right. We fly through that snow like nothin. [driving] Some people in Florida "freak" driving in the rain.

Posted by: heather at December 13, 2007 10:11 PM

midnite,
yes, you did say police officer (just caught that now), but I caught "doing security", so that's why I guess I thought it was a "second job" of sorts...whatever. Anyway, I do apologize for upsetting you...I didn't mean it. I also missed your 9:09 post until now. Wow! Please, going forward, if you think I said something offensive, please don't assume..just ask me! I'll be honest with you..I promise! Sometimes it's really hard to show emotion, put emphasis on certain words, less on others, etc. to get a thought across. So like I said, please, just ask me what I meant instead of assuming I'm the antichrist, please?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 10:12 PM

And for what it's worth, I had no idea that clinics actually get that many threats to where they would have to hire police officers, whether the officers like it or not! That must really suck! I'm really new to this whole thing, so bear with me...I'm learning something new every day!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 10:14 PM

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:06 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:14 PM

AB, not a problem. I dont think your the Antichrist, I promise....

And I am sorry, it's just that the police officer killed in that bombing was a very close friend of my family. He was like a surrogate Uncle to me. I was devastated when he died, as was my mother and father.

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:18 PM

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:15 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me, again.

Here is the law on loitering.

Sec. 29-21. Loitering, obstruction of traffic or passersby.
(a) Any person who, after being warned by any police officer, shall congregate with another or others on any street, sidewalk or public way in the city in such a manner so as to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Given this, you cannot say that Rodger was attempting �to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic�
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:18 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.

Um, actually they can tell you where you can or can not stand. If said officer thinks that said person could be a threat to security, they can ask them to vacate the premises.

And I couldnt tell from the video if the police officer asked to look into the stroller or not. For all you or I know, she could have.

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:20 PM

(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Hmmmmmm, by his own words he stated he was not involved in the protest, so therefore, he was no lawfully enaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.

He clearly does not meet 29-21B

Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:24 PM

midnite,
I'm sorry for you & your families loss. I promise I'll be more careful in posts going forward, to make sure when there is a death I use appropriate, clear wording of my thoughts. I have learned ANOTHER lesson here...Wow!

Regarding Roger, did the mother of the child run over to the baby for a feeding during this 1/2 hour he was on that sidewalk?

Posted by: AB Laura at December 13, 2007 10:29 PM

AB,

Not a problem at all. I must admit that (most of the time) I learn something new here every day. As they say "live and learn".

I am off to bed though. I must get more than four hours sleep tonight, finals have been killing me.

Charles,
I'll check in the morning to see if you've responded to me.
Posted by: midnite678 at December 13, 2007 10:38 PM

I just happen to be related to several cops, and I have met a huge number of their cop friends. They are, by and large, pro-choice and basically just wish the whole abortion issue would just go away.

The vast majority of cops I have met are on huge power trips and consider themselves above the law. They brag about how they abuse their power and get away with it. They are womanizers and proud of it. They are notorious for cheating on their wives and no doubt have been involved in abortions themselves.

I don't trust cops as far as I can throw them.

Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2007 2:11 AM

Ridiculous. The man was pacing back and forth across the street from a group of protesters. He could have been stalking one of them for all anyone would know. His behavior was suspicious. He was there specifically because of the protest by his own admission. I'm sure that mommy is perfectly capable of finding her way home by feeding time. I'm sure Elizabeth has heard of breast pumps. Why didn't he simply cross the street? Hoping that his weird behavior would be noticed? The baby and carriage were a prop to a man with an agenda.
As for Elizabeth, reaching out to women in need. Puleeze! Was she handing out BC pills? Offering pap smears? In need of exactly what Charles? Elizabeth's opinions on PP? I'm sure should would be asked if anyone cared for her opinion.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:06 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me.
First, if the police wanted to they could have asked him to look into his stroller to address the security concerns, but they didn�t, because he was not suspicious. Second, since Rodger has the child, why would mom come running to the child for a feeding? Have you not had kids? Or babysat? Third, the police cannot tell a single person where they can and cannot stand on a public sidewalk. Period.
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:14 PM
......................................................................

You are ridiculous Charles. Roger pacing back and forth over the same patch of sidewalk is indeed suspicious or he would not have been questioned. It is that simple. And darling, I've been a parent for over 30 years. If a woman cannot be available for a feeding she provides breast milk or formula to the caretaker. The caretaker does not follow her around.
Was Roger afraid that Elizabeth was meeting another man at the protest? His hovering around across the street is really really weird.

Posted by: Sally at December 14, 2007 2:34 AM

Roger is a liar evidenced by his own words. He admits to loitering around across the street from the protest for half an hour. That is not simply pushing a stroller past. He was very clearly looking to 'martyr' himself for his 'cause'. The police were correct in asking him to move along.
Don't embarrass yourself by thinking that everyone is as gullible as you would like them to be.
Posted by: Sally at December 13, 2007 5:15 PM

Sally, you utterly humor me, again.

Here is the law on loitering.

Sec. 29-21. Loitering, obstruction of traffic or passersby.
(a) Any person who, after being warned by any police officer, shall congregate with another or others on any street, sidewalk or public way in the city in such a manner so as to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) The prohibition of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized parade, march, funeral procession or assembly.
(Code 1969, � 29-6)

Given this, you cannot say that Rodger was attempting �to impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic�
Posted by: Charles at December 13, 2007 10:18 PM
......................................................

Honey, Roger's behavior was that of a stalker. Forget the protest across the street. The fact that he was pacing back and forth across the street from where his wife was is creepy. Why not just join her? Ever hear of domestic violence Charles? Roger was behaving like an abusive control freak that wishes to 'catch' his wife in a punishable offense. Think that cops haven't seen this behavior before?
Roger is creepy Charles.

Posted by: Sally at December 14, 2007 2:47 AM

The vast majority of cops I have met are on huge power trips and consider themselves above the law. They brag about how they abuse their power and get away with it. They are womanizers and proud of it. They are notorious for cheating on their wives and no doubt have been involved in abortions themselves.

I don't trust cops as far as I can throw them.

Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2007 2:11 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gee, all the guys I know who really hate cops are chronic substance abusers or wife beaters.
Which one are you?

Posted by: Laura at December 14, 2007 6:50 AM

Sally,

I don’t know if you have been over to the location where the clinic is built. But I can tell, you that the street where Rodger was walking has a sidewalk. The other side has only a partial sidewalk. During the protest, people were protesting on this side of the street. Near the other side, there were several people picketing. Now, being a mother, you must know that young children like to be moving; in car stroller or otherwise. Given this, why is it so unreasonable that he didn’t want to walk his child up and down an unpaved plot and a sidewalk full of people? Would you rather have him walk his child up and down the access road in front of the clinic? (You know, which your unfounded ascertain that there could be a bomb in that stroller?)

Also, have you ever personally met Roger? I have. And he is not creepy. So where is your basis for this comment?

Midnite678,

Since he was not “impede, obstruct or halt the free passage of vehicular or pedestrian traffic”, he is not required to be in a parade etc. You need to read the entire section, not just the portions which you like.

Posted by: Charles at December 14, 2007 7:24 AM

As a mother who has breastfed all of her children, I don't think that there is anything weird about a guy keeping the baby happy until feeding time. I have fed my babies in public many times.... While I try to keep away from others as much as possible, sometimes there are situations where you have to feed the baby and there is no private place to do so.... That is why they make those little cover things to wear...that way no one sees what you're doing. You can be really, really discreet. They also make Motherhood wear where you could be breastfeeding and it looks like you're just holding your baby. So I don't find it hard to believe that she would have gone over and fed the baby for 15-30 minutes, then walked back over to the protest. Of course, that's just me.

If the cops were really that suspicious of the man, or felt there was anything truly dangerous in that buggy, I feel that they could have searched it. And how would moving him across the street help anything if there was a bomb in it? A bomb could potentially still hurt people on the other side of the street, just as it could have on that side. So Sally and