While IL state senator, Barack Obama voted "present" on a partial birth abortion ban, parental notification, and a package of 3 Born Alive Infant Protection bills, for which political heat has since forever risen, thank goodness.
Yesterday the Chicago Tribune discussed Hillary's latest jab at Obama:
She also raised a new front on the issue of Obama's use of "present" votes -- rather than "yes" and "no" votes -- on legislation when he was in the Illinois Senate, including on measures that dealt with Republican-led efforts to restrict abortion rights.
"A president can't vote present. A president can't pick and choose which challenges he or she will face," Clinton said. "Instead of looking for political cover or taking a pass, we need a president who will take a stand and stand there and do whatever is necessary for their country."Obama has defended his "present" votes on abortion-related bills in the Illinois legislature, contending it was part of a strategy fashioned with abortion-rights advocates to help give some Illinois Senate Democrats political cover and to avoid looking harsh by casting "no" votes that would create a re-election risk....
But the Tribune earlier this year found few lawmakers remembered such a strategy and many of those who joined with Obama to vote present were, like him, in politically safe districts.Obama's campaign said he had received a perfect grade from abortion-rights advocates during his tenure in Springfield....
Oh, how I would LOVE Hillary Clinton, who voted yes on Born Alive as U.S. senator, to challenge Barack Obama on his "present" and "no" votes on Born Alive! But that's an aside. Moving on...
The Chicago Sun-Times has a different take on the strategy:
On the abortion bills, legislators who supported women's rights to the procedure were encouraged to vote "present" on bills that would have required parental notice before minors could obtain abortions and that would have barred what abortion foes call "partial-birth" abortions, a leading abortion-rights advocate said. The goal was to entice moderate Republicans and Democrats to also vote present, helping to defeat the bills."The poor guy is getting all this heat for a strategy we, the pro-choice community, did," said Pam Sutherland, president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council.
And liberal Tribune columnist Eric Zorn has reposted a column he wrote in 2004 when Obama's cowardly "present" votes were an issue in his U.S. Senate primary:
If "present" sounds wimpy, that's because it sometimes is.... [L]awmakers who anticipate a tough re-election challenge will vote "present" on a controversial bill they oppose so as not to give their prospective opponents a good club to bash them with.Obama, however, was in a safe district and never faced a serious challenge for his legislative seat. He had no need to shy from hard-line stands on gun control and abortion rights....
Why would he then vote "present" instead of a resounding "no" on certain bills advanced by lawmakers opposed to abortion rights?
"To provide cover for other Democrats who were shaky on the issue in an effort to convince them not to vote `yes,'" Sutherland said. "The idea is to recruit a group to vote `present' that includes legislators who are clearly right with the issue."
Sutherland said this tactic makes the "present" vote look less like a hedge or a cop-out and more like a constitutional concern or other high-minded qualm.
So here were described opposite reasons for Obama's cowardly votes. Which was it, to give himself political cover from voting a politically unpopular "no," since most of the public, even pro-aborts, support parental notification and oppose partial birth abortion and infanticide; or to entice wobbly legislators from "yes" to "no"?
Either way, all this demonstrates that Obama is beholden to abortion special interest groups over populous opinion.
Revisiting this line from Zorn's 2004 piece was verrrry interesting:
Sutherland said this tactic makes the "present" vote look less like a hedge or a cop-out and more like a constitutional concern or other high-minded qualm.
With that in mind, here is what supposed constitutional expert Obama said on the IL Senate floor as the LONE vocal opponent to Born Alive in 2001:
... I just want to suggest... that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny.Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a nine-month-old - child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place.
His argument, was, of course, absurd. I think now Planned Parenthood simply handed him his talking points.
Comments:
I'm very impressed with Senator Obama. On this and other issues. What a joy it would be if he becomes our next president.
Posted by: Hal at December 5, 2007 8:39 AMOh come on Jill! You know it's impossible for an aborted fetus to be born alive what with all the hacking it to bits and such.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 8:47 AMObama..what a coward...It's really nice to know that his motives are political strategies with PP's interests in mind, a corporation, rather than the common consensus of his actual constiutents. Between this and his endorsment for the opening of PP Aurora, he really needs to get out of PP's bed!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 9:14 AMI'm very impressed with Senator Obama. On this and other issues. What a joy it would be if he becomes our next president.
Posted by: Hal at December 5, 2007 8:39 AM
Could you share what else he has done that impresses you?
Posted by: hippie at December 5, 2007 10:05 AM"Oh come on Jill! You know it's impossible for an aborted fetus to be born alive what with all the hacking it to bits and such. "
Sally,
Jill held one in her own hands as he died. She has seen it first hand. And, instead of sitting on the sidelines, she pushed this issue all of the way to legislation and exposed the brutality of it.
and that coward Obama saw the evidence but does not have any courage to protect the unborn, and gets his talking points from the radical feminists at PP.
Posted by: jasper at December 5, 2007 10:06 AM"Oh come on Jill! You know it's impossible for an aborted fetus to be born alive what with all the hacking it to bits and such. "
Sally,
Jill held one in her own hands as he died. She has seen it first hand. And, instead of sitting on the sidelines, she pushed this issue all of the way to legislation and exposed the brutality of it.
and that coward Obama saw the evidence but does not have any courage to protect the unborn, and gets his talking points from the radical feminists at PP.
Posted by: jasper at December 5, 2007 10:06 AM
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Yea right Jasper! Many premies die after birth. You aren't attempting to assert that Jill held pieces of a fetus and that fetus was alive are you? Do get your story straight. You are constantly blithering about dismembered 'babies'. How can a dismembered 'baby' be aborted alive? And do explain the brutality of a non viable fetus dying. Happens at God's hand every day.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 10:27 AMSally,
Are you truly that uninformed about the different types of abortion or are you be obtuse?
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:34 AMSally,
Are you truly that uninformed about the different types of abortion or are you be obtuse?
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:34 AM
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Answer the question mk. How can a dismembered 'baby' be born alive? Isn't that your hysteria over late term abortion? You know when the fetus might have been viable? Tell me what form of abortion procedure was performed for all these 'babies' to be born alive?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 10:55 AM50 babies survive botched terminations in Britain every year.
The figures are the first to show the true scale of a problem thought to have been confined to just a handful of babies.
Now some of the country's leading doctors will investigate how so many survived to be born after just 22 weeks of pregnancy. Shockingly, some of the babies may have gone through more than one abortion.
Buy today's Daily Mail for the full story and to read an interview with the girl who survived a termination...
The revelation triggered demands for the time limit for terminations to be cut. The procedure is currently offered 'on demand' up until the 24th week of pregnancy.
The latest figures emerged from the Confidential Enquiry into Child Health (Cemach), which monitors pregnancy deaths on behalf of Britain's six royal colleges of medicine. The study showed that, each year, up to 50 babies survive abortions carried out after 22 weeks.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2007 11:30 AMOne in 30 babies aborted for medical reasons is born alive, a study has found.
They lived for an average of 80 minutes - although in some cases foetuses survived for over six hours.
Most of the babies were born between 20 and 24 weeks of pregnancy, but some had been in the womb for as little as 17 weeks.
The figures, based on a study of West Midlands hospitals, has reignited the abortion debate, with pro-life campaigners demanding the time limit for terminations be cut.
Researchers looked at the outcome of 3,189 abortions performed on seriously handicapped foetuses at 20 hospitals between 1995 and 2004.
It showed that 102 - or around one in 30 - aborted for reasons such as Down's Syndrome and heart defects, were born alive.
Sally,
What do you think should be done with babies who are born alive after an abortion attempt?
Posted by: hippie at December 5, 2007 11:35 AMSally,
I seem to remember a quote from you about a baby being a human being if it survived birth. These human beings survived birth. Do they then deserve protection as human beings?
Posted by: hippie at December 5, 2007 11:41 AMAnon,
The Daily Mail is the National Enquirer of England. Can you answer my question? What type of abortion procedure is survivable?
Sally, quite a few children have survived abortions. They have been strangled or left on shelves to die. Haven't you ever read Jill's testimony?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 11:48 AMSally, quite a few children have survived abortions. They have been strangled or left on shelves to die. Haven't you ever read Jill's testimony?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 11:48 AM
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I don't believe a word Jill says. Tell me how a fetus can survive a D&E or a D&X?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 11:55 AMhttp://www.blessedcause.org/aborticide/survivor.htm
Tell Gianna Jessen that no one survives that no one survives an abortion.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at December 5, 2007 11:55 AMSally,
What do you think should be done with babies who are born alive after an abortion attempt?
Posted by: hippie at December 5, 2007 11:35 AM
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If a baby is born alive it's called delivery and birth. If it is viable it will continue to live. If it is not, it will die.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:00 PMSally,
If a baby is born alive it's called delivery and birth. If it is viable it will continue to live. If it is not, it will die.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:00 PM
Yes, they induce labor and the baby is born very premature and unlikely to survive. What should be done for the baby after birth for those hours and days until he dies?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2007 12:06 PMSally, How about UNWANTED babies. What do you think we do with them?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 12:07 PMSally-
At what point should doctors begin the life support techniques (such as use of incubators, oxygen, and IVs) that they would give to any premature baby born of natural pre-term labor. Were a hospital to allow these babies to die out of neglect, it would be murder. If a baby is aborted by means of deliberately inducing pre-term labor with the idea that the child would not survive, but then the child does survive for an hour or even more, shouldn't the same medical care be given as would be deserved by any premature baby?
Posted by: EH at December 5, 2007 12:07 PM
http://www.blessedcause.org/aborticide/survivor.htm
Tell Gianna Jessen that no one survives that no one survives an abortion.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at December 5, 2007 11:55 AM
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Load of baska Bobby. Saline abortions are legal up to 20 weeks in Cali and abortions at 7 1/2 months are not. Her story is unbelievable.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:25 PMSally, that story is very true!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 12:27 PMSally,
If a baby is born alive it's called delivery and birth. If it is viable it will continue to live. If it is not, it will die.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:00 PM
Yes, they induce labor and the baby is born very premature and unlikely to survive. What should be done for the baby after birth for those hours and days until he dies?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2007 12:06 PM
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Who induces labor as a means of abortion?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:29 PMSally, aborted children are born alive. Look again at Jill's testimony. Do you think it's okay for aborted children to be thrown in the trash? They were at Christ Hospital.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 12:31 PMOne lovely abortionist has quoted "Aborted babies are garbage." "That's all they are, garbage."...SICK!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 12:35 PMSally-
At what point should doctors begin the life support techniques (such as use of incubators, oxygen, and IVs) that they would give to any premature baby born of natural pre-term labor. Were a hospital to allow these babies to die out of neglect, it would be murder. If a baby is aborted by means of deliberately inducing pre-term labor with the idea that the child would not survive, but then the child does survive for an hour or even more, shouldn't the same medical care be given as would be deserved by any premature baby?
Posted by: EH at December 5, 2007 12:07 PM
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Who would induce labor as a means of abortion?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 12:40 PMSally,
Are you that afraid of the truth that you are in such denial? Do really think that Jill's experience would have gone as far as it did...to the Presiden't desk...if it weren't true. Come on, now..back to reality..the Dems would have been all over that one with Obama hand-in-hand with Pelosi leading the parade. Didn't happen! Please, Sally, wake up. There are hideous things happening to babies in this country and around the world.
And just an FYI...if you ever agree with something that Jill says, we won't think any less of you!
Sally,
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 12:50 PMFrom www.emedicinehealth.com (a health information site), under "Types of Abortion"
"* After 20 weeks of gestation, abortions can be performed by labor induction, prostaglandin labor induction, saline infusion, hysterotomy, or dilatation and extraction."
Under, "Explanation of Abortion Procedures"
"Most doctors have experience with the standard drugs used to induce labor for birth. These can be used in the second trimester of pregnancy.
Premature rupture of membranes is one indication for this method.
Cervical ripening agents are typically necessary with either laminaria or misoprostal."
Posted by: EH at December 5, 2007 1:04 PM
Sally,
Plus, wait a minute and back up...You didn't answer my question. Even if it is only a hypothetical in your mind, I want to know what you think. Should babies who went through an abortion procedure and survived for any length of time be due the same medical care that would be given to any premature infant?
EH,
Yes, but many prefer to give "comfort care" rather than full on medical techniques if the baby will not survive.
I think that is the main criticism of the bill.
I do not think babies should be put on shelves to die. It makes me sick to my stomach.
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 1:15 PMAB Laura, most pro aborts ARE afraid of the truth. On another thread, I posted about numerous corrupt abortionists. The 2 PCers who did respond could not refute a thing. They could only read in horror.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:17 PMFunny how they all disappear once you crank up the heat on them.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:17 PMWow, I'm really shocked at the amount of denial on the part of some PCer's(Sally)...that is just incredible!
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 1:20 PMJill posted a clip taken from the T.V. show "Frontline." Helen and Barbara were the women featured, and it showed them each undergoing the actual abortion procedure. None of the PCers commented.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:25 PMHeather, "Funny how they all disappear once you crank up the heat on them."
Yes, I noticed that, too.
I read your horror posts last night. How awful!! How can ANYONE not support parental notification? How could a parent (or politician for that matter) not care who's lurking on the other side of stirrups with a young girl lying naked behind them? How many stories do we NOT hear about because the young girl doesn't want her "secret abortion" to get out?
Legalized child predators in every sense of the word. Truly sickening!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 1:29 PMHeather,
Can you repost a link to that clip??
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 1:29 PMElizabeth, do you mean the "Frontline" tape, or the perverted abortionist thread?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:32 PMAB Laura, gee. Where did Sally go??
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:33 PMHeather & Elizabeth,
I was going to ask the same thing!
This one is absolutely sick! I saw it about 2 weeks ago...made my stomach turn. Sally can watch this & come back & try to tell me that they arn't dismembered? I'd love to see her excuse for that! Anyway, it is a truly disturbing video, so don't watch if your squeamish! However, it is the truth about abortion.
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 1:35 PMAB Laura, lack of parental consent? An abortionist's dream come true. I wonder how many minors were molested by their abortionist. I wonder how many have to keep that secret.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:36 PMI think she said she was going to try out for the giant in Jack in the Beanstalk...(from some other post)
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 1:37 PMThe frontline clip.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 1:37 PMAB Laura, thank you. That video has also been posted. PCers refused to watch it. Erin did, and Laura did. That's it! Hal still can't watch it! If abortion is such a wonderful choice, why can't you watch what you support?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:39 PMSally, that story is very true!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 12:27 PM
........................................
Sure it is Heather. Her mother had an illegal abortion and she's the product.
Elizabeth, it's back in Jill's archives somewhere. Let me try to find it for you.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:40 PM
From www.emedicinehealth.com (a health information site), under "Types of Abortion"
"* After 20 weeks of gestation, abortions can be performed by labor induction, prostaglandin labor induction, saline infusion, hysterotomy, or dilatation and extraction."
Under, "Explanation of Abortion Procedures"
"Most doctors have experience with the standard drugs used to induce labor for birth. These can be used in the second trimester of pregnancy.
Premature rupture of membranes is one indication for this method.
Cervical ripening agents are typically necessary with either laminaria or misoprostal."
Posted by: EH at December 5, 2007 1:04 PM
............................................
What abortion procedures are used during the third trimester?
Medication based abortion procedures are not an option during the third trimester. The surgical types of abortion procedures performed during the third trimester are:
Induction Abortion: a rarely done surgical procedure where salt water, urea, or potassium chloride is injected into the amniotic sac; prostaglandins are inserted into the vagina and pitocin is injected intravenously.
Dilation and Extraction: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 21 weeks of gestation. This procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion.
www.americanpregnancy.org
Elizabeth, click on August [right side] Scroll down. You will see 2 women's faces. Click onto the face, and it will show the video. Look for the "Frontline" headline. You will have to scroll down a ways.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:48 PMOk heather, I'll be on for a while.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 1:49 PMOk, I will check that out and let you know if I found it.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 1:52 PMElizabeth, let me know if you can't find it.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:52 PMSally, here's ACOG's description of induced labor abortion. ACOG - American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists - is pro-abortion, in case you were unfamiliar. So this isn't a pro-life description of the procedure.
Scroll down to "Labor-Inducing Abortion."
http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp043.cfm
In this procedure, sometimes the babies are aborted alive.
SICK!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:03 PMSally, you just don't understand. Stay in denial, or face the truth! Abortion is murder.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:05 PMSally,
Yes, they induce labor and the baby is born very premature and unlikely to survive. What should be done for the baby after birth for those hours and days until he dies?
Posted by: hippie at December 5, 2007 2:06 PMSally,
Are you that afraid of the truth that you are in such denial? Do really think that Jill's experience would have gone as far as it did...to the Presiden't desk...if it weren't true. Come on, now..back to reality..the Dems would have been all over that one with Obama hand-in-hand with Pelosi leading the parade. Didn't happen! Please, Sally, wake up. There are hideous things happening to babies in this country and around the world.
And just an FYI...if you ever agree with something that Jill says, we won't think any less of you!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 12:44 PM
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She makes a statement now and then that I agree with. Not often though. The hospital Jill was employed by does medically indicated later term abortions. That she can't handle the deaths of non viable fetii is understandable. It certainly is no cause for abortion to be made illegal.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:09 PMA non viable feti? Try human being.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:11 PMThank you, Sally.
:) BIG smiles for you!
Yes. I agree that there is some progress in that statement.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:13 PMSally-
At what point should doctors begin the life support techniques (such as use of incubators, oxygen, and IVs) that they would give to any premature baby born of natural pre-term labor. Were a hospital to allow these babies to die out of neglect, it would be murder. If a baby is aborted by means of deliberately inducing pre-term labor with the idea that the child would not survive, but then the child does survive for an hour or even more, shouldn't the same medical care be given as would be deserved by any premature baby?
Posted by: EH at December 5, 2007 12:07 PM
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I'm not sure that heroic measures should be used to artificially extend life. I guess it would be best left up to those involved.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:15 PMAB Laura, gee. Where did Sally go??
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 1:33 PM
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Gee Heather, did you miss me? Just ran to the store for limes. Making salmon with lime butter for dinner.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:18 PMSally,
sounds yummy!!!
Yuck...sorry no more video watching I DO have to eat lunch today.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 2:20 PMI'm not sure that heroic measures should be used to artificially extend life. I guess it would be best left up to those involved.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:15 PM************************************************************* No. It wouldn't. The mother wants a dead baby, and the abortionist has a duty to kill that baby. The baby will die.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:26 PMAdding to above post [in cases of abortion]
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:28 PMI'm not sure that heroic measures should be used to artificially extend life. I guess it would be best left up to those involved.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:15 PM************************************************************* No. It wouldn't. The mother wants a dead baby, and the abortionist has a duty to kill that baby. The baby will die.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 2:26 PM
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A profoundly premature baby isn't likely to do anything else but die.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:37 PMSally,
sounds yummy!!!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 2:20 PM
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Unfortunately the only vegie my man will eat is green beans. There are only so many ways to prepare green beans. I'm sick of green beans.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 2:40 PMHey Jasper? That quote of the day? That was me. I was one of the women that got harassed! Thanks!
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 2:46 PMmk,
I'm sorry that had to happen to you guys! I'm glad he got fired, though! (his name says it all! LOL)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/la-me-milla5dec05,0,6720599.story
This is also an interesting piece.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:01 PMWHAT? Sally I'm shocked...a woman who was raped chose NOT to abort her child?? That IS shocking! It is also interesting since it's the whole platform of the PC crowd. "What if she's raped..women who are raped shouldn't have to carry a pregnancy..It will only remind them of the rape BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:08 PMSally,
don't you think that the baby born alive should have at least a warm bed and and other comfort care before death?
No baby deserves less, even when death is intentional :(
I did hear that the bill made it mandatory to take extreme measures. I don't know if and how much of that is true, can anyone help me out on this?
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 3:26 PM*whoops did not mean two "ands"
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 3:27 PMWhat if a 99 year old man was dying in a hospital? Would we strip his gown off, drag him out of bed, and lay him in a linen closet to die alone? This is insane!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:31 PMHow about we just toss him into a dumpster after he's dead.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:33 PMDon't you think that people should stop aborting their children...that way..they won't have to be "born alive" unintentionally and then need "comfort care?"
Ehh..sorry that was kinda snippy..I'm in a mood today.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:33 PMHow is it that we demand such good care while our loved ones are in the hospital, but if a child is unwanted, it's okay to mistreat him or her. A patient is a patient. This is an abomination. Jill, did any of your co-workers ever get sick d/t this? I wouldn't be able to take this! I'd want to take that baby and run!!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:36 PMJill, even though I know that wasn't an option.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:37 PMYAY!!!
My boyfriend becomes an uncle today (not sure if it's already happened or not). :D
Will post pictures of his niece. :)
Posted by: Lyssie at December 5, 2007 3:38 PMElizabeth, indeed!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:38 PMHeather, I am just as outraged as you are over this whole issue...to be honest..up until I became involved in the PL movement, I didn't even know babies survived abortions. I have gained much needed knowledge after becoming involved thankfully. This really burns me though I have to say.
Lyssie, how exciting! Yes pictures, lots and lots!!!
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:41 PMWHAT? Sally I'm shocked...a woman who was raped chose NOT to abort her child?? That IS shocking! It is also interesting since it's the whole platform of the PC crowd. "What if she's raped..women who are raped shouldn't have to carry a pregnancy..It will only remind them of the rape BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:08 PM
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You said it yourself Elizabeth. She CHOSE not to abort. That's how choice works. And she says that she was seduced rather than raped.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:52 PMIf she was a minor..and he was an adult..it was rape Sally.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:54 PMheather, exactly!!
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 3:57 PMSally,
don't you think that the baby born alive should have at least a warm bed and and other comfort care before death?
No baby deserves less, even when death is intentional :(
I did hear that the bill made it mandatory to take extreme measures. I don't know if and how much of that is true, can anyone help me out on this?
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 3:26 PM
.................................
I think that everyone should be allowed to die as comfortably as possible.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:57 PMHow about we just toss him into a dumpster after he's dead.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 3:33 PM
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That would be a violation of health codes now wouldn't it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:59 PM
Sally, here's ACOG's description of induced labor abortion. ACOG - American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists - is pro-abortion, in case you were unfamiliar. So this isn't a pro-life description of the procedure.
Scroll down to "Labor-Inducing Abortion."
http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp043.cfm
In this procedure, sometimes the babies are aborted alive.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at December 5, 2007 1:57 PM
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This would be a rare late term non elective procedure correct? When taking about a fetus that might survive the procedure of course.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 4:06 PMThat would be a violation of health codes now wouldn't it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:59 PM
-------------------------
Only if "they" are caught! (But if you put up big trees in front of the dumpster, no one will ever know! muhahahahah!
Elizabeth, until I found Jill's site, neither did I. I didn't even think that something like this would be legal.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:09 PMIt IS shocking the things they let fly in the good ol' USA, Heather.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 4:12 PMElizabeth,
And also the things that "certain" politicians will support. I just don't understand the logic. Can only be $$$!
what if you didn't want to be bothered with your dying grandfather? should the hospital just let him die, because he's unwanted?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:19 PMAb Laura,
I totally agree...it's a money-making industry..and the murder of innocent babies makes everybody else $$ so why should they care?
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 4:20 PMWell, I am personally volunteering to be the one standing in front of the gates of hell who will give these greedy bastards a big 'ol kick right in the ass that sends them off to their eternal doom.
(Of course, I am praying for them to not suffer that fate. It's hard..but I do pray for them!)
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 4:23 PMI wouldn't treat an animal that way!!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:29 PMIf she was a minor..and he was an adult..it was rape Sally.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 3:54 PM
.............................................
She apparently viewed it as seduction. She was definitely abused on all levels. I would imagine her view of how she got pregnant would impact her choice. Don't you? She might have made a different choice had she been dragged into an alley by a stranger and beaten and raped. Who knows.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 4:42 PMThat would be a violation of health codes now wouldn't it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:59 PM
-------------------------
Only if "they" are caught! (But if you put up big trees in front of the dumpster, no one will ever know! muhahahahah!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 4:07 PM
...................................................
I don't think that big trees would mask the stench.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 4:48 PMWell, aborted babies have been found in dumpsters.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:50 PMThey have also been shoved down garbage disposals.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:51 PMwhat if you didn't want to be bothered with your dying grandfather? should the hospital just let him die, because he's unwanted?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:19 PM
.....................................................
Should he be forced to live against his wishes?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 4:52 PMShould aborted babies be killed because mom said so?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:53 PMYes they have Heather. Hence where the photos of them come from. But I'm sure us PLer's make those up too. We're such liars you know.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 4:54 PMSure, just as the PC crowd wants us to see how many "evil" people we have on our side {Paul Hill, Eric Rudolph, etc. However, once you point out a few bad apples on their side, it's usually followed by dead silence or diversion.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:57 PMWell, aborted babies have been found in dumpsters.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:50 PM
.........................................
Lots of things have been found in dumpsters than violate health codes.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 4:57 PMDead babies should be at the top of the list.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:59 PMShould aborted babies be killed because mom said so?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:53 PM
...............................................
Termination of a pregnancy usually does the job. And of course it should be only the woman's choice.
A Busy week for Pro-Choicers
Category: News and Politics
1) Abortionists with Child Porn- nothing new there
2) Abortionists taken before state medical board- Definitely nothing new there
3) Pro-Choice man gives Girlfriend RU-486 to force her to abort, nothing new there either.
4) Abortionist arrested for Medicaid Fraud - WOW- nothing new there, except he may be doing what many others are doing.
Pro-choicers and abortion clinic doctors and staff have a history of abuse of women. These current stories are just more proof of the same old / same old- where the abortion industry and those who agree with them are concerned.
Read and Puke and never forget that abortionists "Care about women" ( NOT) !!!!!
Abortionist Arrested for Child Porn
According to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, ( Well-known Wash. gynecologist to plead guilty to child porn: 11/29/2007) , an abortionist who worked at Sound Choice Health Center in Olympia has agreed to plead guilty to child pornography charges in Washington State . George E. Kabacy, 68, of Lacey, was indicted, after a child porn suspect in Georgia provided Kabacy's e-mail address - surgyn97@aol.com - as a source of the material, court documents show. He was scheduled to enter a guilty plea in U.S. District Court in Tacoma Late November of 2007. FBI Special Agent Ryan Bruett wrote in an affidavit that investigators traced the e-mail address to Kabacy's home, and they also linked it to several hard-core sexual images of prepubescent children on the Internet. When they searched his home in December of 2006, "Dr. Kabacy asked what would happen to him," Bruett wrote. "I responded that if we found any child pornography, he would be placed under arrest. He responded, 'You will.'"
And they did, including a number of compact discs showing young children in sexual situations, Bruett wrote.
Kabacy has been on home electronic monitoring pending trial. In arguing that he should not be held in custody, his attorney noted in court papers: "Mr. Kabacy has no prior criminal history at all. Instead, he has a well-documented history of providing medical services to the people of Oregon and Washington in the face of grave personal danger. ... His life history is one of dealing with adversity and acting responsibly in the face of such, not running away."
Kabacy, who in 1988 was named the Oregon Medical Association's Doctor-Citizen of the Year, has also given up his medical practice, according to court papers.
For More on Abortionists and Sexual Assault go to : Death roe.com
Posted by: heather at December 2, 2007 3:31 PM
Sally,
Who said it was against the grandfather's wishes? Heather was talking about the child of this person who deemed him as "unwanted." You are speaking of a completely different scenario.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 5:02 PMWell, then, Sally..if it is solely the woman's decision..then the father of a child who doesn't want the child shouldn't have to pay child support. After all, he didn't want the child anyway but he has no control over her body. Her body, her money and time. The father shouldn't have to pay.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 5:04 PMI won't saturate this thread with corruption in the abortion industry, but here is one example. Watch how the topic will now gear towards corrupt priests, dentists, and kidney transplants. *snicker*
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 5:05 PMWhat do you mean by the term "aborted alive"? It's kind of unnecessary to have the "alive" in there don't you think? The fetus was already "alive" before the abortion. Of course it was aborted alive. You can't really abort something that's dead...
Posted by: Stephanie at December 5, 2007 5:06 PM"if it is solely the woman's decision..then the father of a child who doesn't want the child shouldn't have to pay child support. After all, he didn't want the child anyway but he has no control over her body. Her body, her money and time. The father shouldn't have to pay."
I agree, for the most part.
Posted by: Stephanie at December 5, 2007 5:09 PMDead babies should be at the top of the list.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:59 PM
.................................................
What list? You're too young to remember dead baby jokes aren't you.
Sally,
Who said it was against the grandfather's wishes? Heather was talking about the child of this person who deemed him as "unwanted." You are speaking of a completely different scenario.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 5:02 PM
............................................................
If the child doesn't 'want' him, they need not take him home. Of course he is dying in the scenario and that probably would not be an option any way.
Well, then, Sally..if it is solely the woman's decision..then the father of a child who doesn't want the child shouldn't have to pay child support. After all, he didn't want the child anyway but he has no control over her body. Her body, her money and time. The father shouldn't have to pay.
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 5:04 PM
....................................................................
Once a man has donated his sperm to a woman, it is hers to do with as she sees fit. If he doesn't want children, he needs to control his sperm.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 5:18 PMWhat do you mean by the term "aborted alive"? It's kind of unnecessary to have the "alive" in there don't you think? The fetus was already "alive" before the abortion. Of course it was aborted alive. You can't really abort something that's dead...
Posted by: Stephanie at December 5, 2007 5:06 PM
................................................
The abortion procedure is the same whether the embryo or fetus are dead or not.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 5:21 PMSure, just as the PC crowd wants us to see how many "evil" people we have on our side {Paul Hill, Eric Rudolph, etc. However, once you point out a few bad apples on their side, it's usually followed by dead silence or diversion.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 4:57 PM
..................................................
You call a homicidal maniac and a terrorist 'bad apples'? Is Osama just a naughty boy? I'm sure he's against legal abortion.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 5:27 PMWhat list? You're too young to remember dead baby jokes aren't you.
Posted by: Sally ************************************************************************ I don't care for dead baby jokes.
Do you call an abortionist who enjoys "kiddie porn" a good guy?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 5:58 PMAborted alive..simple. It's an abortion that isn't finalized until the baby is out of the birth canal. The end result must be death. No matter how it's done. That's what "mom" paid for.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:00 PMDo you call an abortionist who enjoys "kiddie porn" a good guy?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 5:58 PM
......................................................
Do you put a guy who looks at such in the same league as terrorists?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 6:26 PMWhat list? You're too young to remember dead baby jokes aren't you.
Posted by: Sally ************************************************************************ I don't care for dead baby jokes.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 5:57 PM
.................................
They were quite popular back in the 60's.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 6:27 PMSally, did you just condone an old buzzard looking at "kiddie porn"?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:41 PMCocaine, stalking - just another day
According to NY State Board of Professional Medical Conduct Case # BPMC 01-99, abortionist Daniel Holschauer had been treated for cocaine abuse and was reported to have lied on his medical applications about his troubles. Local news stated that he lied to officials at two hospitals when he applied for privileges at both hospitals, claiming he'd never had a problem with drugs or alcohol abuse. An article in the The Times Herald (01/06/01) stated that in fact, he'd been in drug rehab for cocaine addiction, which had cost him a job in 1988, and which was an ongoing problem. He was also charged with stalking abortion patients that he wanted to have sex with.
Posted by: heather at December 2, 2007 6:45 PM
Here Sally. Do you condone what this abortionist did?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:45 PMSally, did you just condone an old buzzard looking at "kiddie porn"?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:41 PM
.......................................................
While I find it twisted, as long as he hasn't acted upon fantasy, he is in no way the threat that a terrorist is. Are you saying different.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 6:54 PMCocaine, stalking - just another day
According to NY State Board of Professional Medical Conduct Case # BPMC 01-99, abortionist Daniel Holschauer had been treated for cocaine abuse and was reported to have lied on his medical applications about his troubles. Local news stated that he lied to officials at two hospitals when he applied for privileges at both hospitals, claiming he'd never had a problem with drugs or alcohol abuse. An article in the The Times Herald (01/06/01) stated that in fact, he'd been in drug rehab for cocaine addiction, which had cost him a job in 1988, and which was an ongoing problem. He was also charged with stalking abortion patients that he wanted to have sex with.
Posted by: heather at December 2, 2007 6:45 PM
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:44 PM
..................................................................
Are you pretending that his profession has anything to do with him being a coke head or a stalker?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 6:57 PMSally, he is a sick pervert. He is an abortionist. He is performing abortions on minors. Don't you think he's in violation of the law? That's first and foremost. Second, would you want a child molesting abortionist performing an abortion on your minor daughter? Anybody elses kid?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:58 PMSally, I don't need to pretend. He IS a coke head stalker.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:59 PMAbortion patients are out of control
Abortion doctor Michael Benjamin gave this testimony before a Florida House Health Care Committee meeting September 14 15, 1989:
Speaking about the typical abortion patient,
"I think it is basically a personality type who generally has her life out of control...They drift, they tend to live for the moment in terms not only of their sexual practices but in terms of their economic lives and they are people in general who don?t think beyond the moment, who don't plan for tomorrow, and who really will take life as it comes and deal with the rest later."
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:01 PMYes. The typical abortion patient! Straight from the horse's mouth! Abortionists don't respect women!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:03 PMSally, I don't need to pretend. He IS a coke head stalker.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:59 PM
...................................
So all coke head stalkers are doctors that perform abortions?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:04 PMSally, did you just condone an old buzzard looking at "kiddie porn"?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:41 PM
.......................................................
While I find it twisted, as long as he hasn't acted upon fantasy, he is in no way the threat that a terrorist is. Are you saying different.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 6:54 PM************************************************************************************************************************************************* Twisted? He's breaking the law!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:04 PMSo, all abortion doctors are coke head stalkers? Yes. That is correct.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:05 PMSally, repent! Do it! Allow yourself to heal. Stop believing in false lies from the devil. You can DO it!! Allow yourself to heal, but you never will until you give it to God! Give it to him!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:09 PMSally, he is a sick pervert. He is an abortionist. He is performing abortions on minors. Don't you think he's in violation of the law? That's first and foremost. Second, would you want a child molesting abortionist performing an abortion on your minor daughter? Anybody elses kid?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 6:58 PM
...................................
I'm pretty sure that kiddie porn is illegal. But of course, simply looking at porn doesn't make one a molester. I don't think that anyone would intentionally put their child in harms way but child molesters don't seem to come labeled.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:09 PMAbortion patients are out of control
Abortion doctor Michael Benjamin gave this testimony before a Florida House Health Care Committee meeting September 14 15, 1989:
Speaking about the typical abortion patient,
"I think it is basically a personality type who generally has her life out of control...They drift, they tend to live for the moment in terms not only of their sexual practices but in terms of their economic lives and they are people in general who don?t think beyond the moment, who don't plan for tomorrow, and who really will take life as it comes and deal with the rest later."
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:01 PM
..........................................
1989?
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:12 PMSally, I realize you were abused, but you are worthy of forgiveness.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:12 PMSo, all abortion doctors are coke head stalkers? Yes. That is correct.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:05 PM
..................................................
Prove it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:13 PMSally, look at how low you have sunk. You are practically agreeing with the slimy things that abortionists do. Rise up. Don't defend evil.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:14 PMSally, repent! Do it! Allow yourself to heal. Stop believing in false lies from the devil. You can DO it!! Allow yourself to heal, but you never will until you give it to God! Give it to him!
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:09 PM
.......................................
The devil is a dualistic construct born out of Greek mythology. But I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:16 PMSally, you came to Jill's site. Did you come here looking for answers, or to tell us how fabulous abortions are? See, we will never buy what you're selling. Why? Because abortion is murder. You can never change out minds! So, with that in mind, what do you hope to accomplish?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:21 PMSally, I realize you were abused, but you are worthy of forgiveness.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:12 PM
...................................
Whoa Heather! I need to be forgiven for being abused? My shrink would disagree.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:22 PMNo. You deserve to be forgiven for your abortion. That's why you beat yourself up, isn't it? That's why you came to a PL site, isn't it?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:25 PMSally, look at how low you have sunk. You are practically agreeing with the slimy things that abortionists do. Rise up. Don't defend evil.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:14 PM
...................
Oh whatever! People are not perfect. I don't hound ole Rush for being an addict.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:30 PMWho said anything about Rush?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:31 PMNo. You deserve to be forgiven for your abortion. That's why you beat yourself up, isn't it? That's why you came to a PL site, isn't it?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:25 PM
...........................................
Don't be ridiculous. I aborted upon my doctor's advice and considered myself Christian at the time. So of course prayer was involved.
I'm here because of my PTSD. I find the PL stance to be fundamentally abusive. It's a practice in sticking up for myself and others.
The PL side is not abusive.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:37 PMSticking up for yourself...to whom? Who are you defending yourself from?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:39 PMThe PL side is not abusive.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:37 PM
..................................
I find the pl position to be quite abusive.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:48 PMSticking up for yourself...to whom? Who are you defending yourself from?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:39 PM
.............................
Abusives silly!
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:50 PMSally, okay. enough. I'm off to bed. Have a good one.
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:51 PMSally said,
"It's a practice in sticking up for myself and others. "
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:35 PM
------------
Sally, practice sticking up for yourself for what? You seem to have a lot of self confidence. You've probably have come a long way since the past, but take a step into reality. You are there! Your self-confidence is pronounced, your children are happy and you have a wealth of knowledge. (and although I have never tasted your cooking...you're probably quite the chef! I think an episode of you on Hell's Kitchen would be awsome...man, you sure would put that jerk in his place!)
My goodness, Sally, as much as I disagree with you on MANY subjects, there's definately something about you that makes me just want to give you a great, big hug!
Seriously, Sally...ditch the shrink..you're just wasting time & money. YOU ARE THERE!!! You are beyond that time in your life..you have turned the page and started a new chapter. Let it go!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 8:10 PMPIP: "I do not think babies should be put on shelves to die. It makes me sick to my stomach."
Really? then why are you voting for Obama who supports this.
MK "Hey Jasper? That quote of the day? That was me. I was one of the women that got harassed! Thanks!"
oh wow, no kidding MK? ... I guess that cop got fired. Good.
Posted by: jasper at December 5, 2007 8:14 PMHi Jasper!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 8:18 PMSally,
What part about the PL movement do you find abusive exactly?
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 9:28 PMJust a few comments before I go away:
-What is the difference between miscarriage and abortion? It is the same as the difference between natural death and murder. When a person dies of natural causes, there is no police investigation. It is a sad event, but it is not criminal. When a person is murdered, a serious crime has been committed, a crime which cries out to the world for justice to be done.
-God and Satan do not exist in a duality. That is a common misperception. Satan is a creation of God who chose turn his back on love in favor of pride. God's angel Lucifer refused to acknowledge the reality that all life and all goodness flow from God, and so he became the hate-filled spirit Satan who exists only to corrupt the souls of others.
-Suffering, though unpleasant and not something to be sought out, does have a purpose. Suffering is a sacrifice which can and should be offered up to God for the good of all souls. Just as we give alms and fast, we must also make use of our sufferings and pray for all souls which are lost are in danger of becoming lost. Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ healed us all through his suffering, and in his example we should also pray, especially for those who persecute the innocent. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at December 5, 2007 9:40 PMAmen, John!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 9:41 PMJohn, you have me worried...what do you mean "before I go away"....
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 9:48 PMSally,
That would be a violation of health codes now wouldn't it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:59 PM
You'd think...
But that's just the point Sal, we do throw them in dumpsters. Or put them in containers and wait for the "garbage" truck to haul them away...and its NOT a violation of the health code law...
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:06 PMBut I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Whoa Heather! I need to be forgiven for being abused? My shrink would disagree.
If you're doing "very well", why are you seeing a shrink?
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:14 PMJohn, you have me worried...what do you mean "before I go away"....
Yes John, what DO you mean?
jasper-
penicillin can cure syphilis before it rots your brain.
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 10:37 PMPIP,
Very not nice!
sorry. I've been dying to use that insult. It was said with good intentions, promise.
There are very few situations where that insult could work. Took an opportunity. No hard feelings.
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 5, 2007 10:43 PMBut I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Whoa Heather! I need to be forgiven for being abused? My shrink would disagree.
If you're doing "very well", why are you seeing a shrink?
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:14 PM
.............................................
Haven't seen him in years but we certainly went over the self blame for being abused issue. And I still consider him my shrink.
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 12:10 AMWho said anything about Rush?
Posted by: heather at December 5, 2007 7:31 PM
...................................
I did. Just like you feel a need to dig up something to justify your 'moral' indignation over every PC you don't know and will never meet.
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 12:13 AMSally,
What part about the PL movement do you find abusive exactly?
Posted by: Elizabeth at December 5, 2007 9:28 PM
........................................
It starts with the basic PL premise that women are evil and incapable of making choices responsible to themselves. It is the first step in building a co-dependent relationship. The making of a 'willing' victim.
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 12:19 AMSally,
That would be a violation of health codes now wouldn't it.
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 3:59 PM
You'd think...
But that's just the point Sal, we do throw them in dumpsters. Or put them in containers and wait for the "garbage" truck to haul them away...and its NOT a violation of the health code law...
Posted by: mk at December 5, 2007 10:06 PM
..................................
You might want to check out the health codes mk. Then cease and desist in throwing illegal waste into trash bins. You'd be fined for throwing a dead pet into a trash bin here in NM. Or a can of paint.
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 12:31 AMSally,
If you reread my post you'll see that I said putting them in containers was not a health code violation...I only said that we DO throw them in dumpsters, not that that was legal.
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 5:36 AMSally,
In going over my posts on all the threads I realize that I have really been on your case the last few days. Sorry if it seems like I'm bombarding you.
You haven't done anything to incite my wrath, your posts just jumped out at me.
Anywho, I truly apologize if it seems like I've been singly you out. I like you, and lately I've been sounding like I don't. And for that I'm really sorry.
Feel free to take a couple of days to totally blast away at me...I'll give you a couple of freebies...lol.
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:30 AM
whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a nine-month-old - child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place.
I think Obama was correct, there. If the unborn were defined as persons like that, then indeed abortions would be forbidden. Such would have to be accepted as Constitutional or actually put in the Constitution, but that would then obviously overrule the interpretation of the right to privacy, right to bodily autonomy, etc., of the pregnant woman.
However, I think he was wrong about the Born Alive act, since at that point there is not a "previable fetus" by definition, since birth has taken place.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at December 6, 2007 7:36 AMDoug.
All your reasoning for abortion is outdated since murdering a baby in the womb, by anyone, but the mother, is simply murder. It's over Doug. Sooner or later the contradiction in the law(s), which sentences a person for murdering a fetus, and still allowing a abortion provider to murder her fetus,embryo, is going to come to the conclusion, that murder is murder.
When people realized through the Scott Peterson murder trial, that two murders had been committed, your "choice rhetoric" lost another round in the court of common sense.
And Doug, given time, many more cases will follow, till it is clear, and quite simple, that a baby in the womb is not to be murdered by anyone will prevail.
Already 37 states have laws which protect your so called, not being able to live without being a parasite in another person sophistry, and will see more states inact laws to protect human life.
Hoist your anchor Doug, set sail for the sunset of history, where your fellow pirates who fly the flag of abortion as a choice, is decided that your nothing more then a decision to murder innocent life.
Yllas, thanks for the mention - I was wondering where you'd been.
That's not my reasoning for abortion, above, in the first place. And no, you may not like abortion, but of course in no way does that make it "murder."
I don't consider the unborn as parasites, though I know that they do qualify under some definitions. I think that's really more of a button-pushing phrase some pro-choicers like to use.
Abortion is a choice, regardless of how much you'd prefer that people don't choose that way. I don't know the future, and acknowledge that it's not impossible that abortion would be once again pretty much illegal, at least in some states. We'll see - you don't know the future either.
Don't forget that I'm a Vulcan, as well.
Doug
Vulcan Pirate
P.S. I still aspire to the status of full Vicelord though I think you did say I was one, at least some type of vicelord, somewhere back along the line.
Sally,
In going over my posts on all the threads I realize that I have really been on your case the last few days. Sorry if it seems like I'm bombarding you.
You haven't done anything to incite my wrath, your posts just jumped out at me.
Anywho, I truly apologize if it seems like I've been singly you out. I like you, and lately I've been sounding like I don't. And for that I'm really sorry.
Feel free to take a couple of days to totally blast away at me...I'll give you a couple of freebies...lol.
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:30 AM
.....................................................
LOL. You are allowed the grumpies mk.
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 5:32 PMSally said,
"It's a practice in sticking up for myself and others. "
Posted by: Sally at December 5, 2007 7:35 PM
------------
Sally, practice sticking up for yourself for what? You seem to have a lot of self confidence. You've probably have come a long way since the past, but take a step into reality. You are there! Your self-confidence is pronounced, your children are happy and you have a wealth of knowledge. (and although I have never tasted your cooking...you're probably quite the chef! I think an episode of you on Hell's Kitchen would be awsome...man, you sure would put that jerk in his place!)
My goodness, Sally, as much as I disagree with you on MANY subjects, there's definately something about you that makes me just want to give you a great, big hug!
Seriously, Sally...ditch the shrink..you're just wasting time & money. YOU ARE THERE!!! You are beyond that time in your life..you have turned the page and started a new chapter. Let it go!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 5, 2007 8:10 PM
........................................................
PTSD is tough Laura. I haven't felt the need for my shrink in quite some time but have to keep practicing self assertion as well as dealing with triggers that cause anxiety attacks. But thank you for the rah rah. You know you are my favorite PL. That's why I enjoy picking on you! Come to dinner any time. Do you like Southwestern food? My favorite to make is French. All those decedent sauces! And the wine ain't bad!
Posted by: Sally at December 6, 2007 5:41 PMSally,
You like to cook? Or just eat?
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:02 PMSally,
Being a Psych Nut (Hmmmm...I wonder if there is a hidden meaning in there...) I have to ask. What are your triggers (or triggers in general) and what happens when one strikes? Honest, it's just curiosity. I'm not that familiar with PTSD.
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:05 PMSally, can I come to dinner? Could you welcome another "nutty" plfer to the table? I'm sure we would get along!
Posted by: heather at December 6, 2007 8:53 PMSally,
One of my dream vacations is to go to Albuquerque someday. My parents spoke very highly about it. Great temps, air quality, etc. They thought it was like heaven on earth! (That was years ago, but the dream is still very much alive in me!)
Anyway, I would love to come over for dinner someday...I'm not big on food, but it's probably because I don't have tasty food enough! Anyway, I'll let you know when my dream vacation is a reality! (Can't wait to give you that great, big hug!!!)
:)
"jasper-
penicillin can cure syphilis before it rots your brain"
LOL! Oh PIP, sorry no syphilis here. I know sometimes I give you a hard time, but I like you.
Posted by: jasper at December 6, 2007 11:05 PMsame here jasper, that's why I knew you wouldn't mind me saying that to you :)
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 6, 2007 11:48 PMSally,
You like to cook? Or just eat?
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:02 PM
..................................
Love love love to cook! Not much of an eater.
Posted by: Sally at December 7, 2007 12:33 AMSally,
Being a Psych Nut (Hmmmm...I wonder if there is a hidden meaning in there...) I have to ask. What are your triggers (or triggers in general) and what happens when one strikes? Honest, it's just curiosity. I'm not that familiar with PTSD.
Posted by: mk at December 6, 2007 6:05 PM
.....................................................
A main trigger for me is anything that feels anything close to confrontational. For instance, I've been looking for a new job. The first few interviews were horrible. When asked the most innocent question, my hands would start shaking and my mouth would start to tremble. I had the intense urge to cry. Needless to say, I didn't get those jobs.
Certain arrogant looks on a man's face or in his eyes can send me into a panic attack. The feeling that I should fight or run but can't do either because it might not really be appropriate is confusing and humiliating.
Thank you for asking mk.
Sally, can I come to dinner? Could you welcome another "nutty" plfer to the table? I'm sure we would get along!
Posted by: heather at December 6, 2007 8:53 PM
...................................
Absolutely Heather! Can you bring Scrabble or maybe Trivial Pursuit for after din din?
Posted by: Sally at December 7, 2007 12:54 AMSally,
A main trigger for me is anything that feels anything close to confrontational. For instance, I've been looking for a new job. The first few interviews were horrible. When asked the most innocent question, my hands would start shaking and my mouth would start to tremble. I had the intense urge to cry. Needless to say, I didn't get those jobs.
Certain arrogant looks on a man's face or in his eyes can send me into a panic attack. The feeling that I should fight or run but can't do either because it might not really be appropriate is confusing and humiliating.
Wow! Now tell the truth and shame the devil. If San Fran does go down, don't you hope the "bast**d" that did this to you is vacationing there at the time!
That is so tragic that another human being has the power to get inside your head like that. And it can't be any good hating him/them because hate is not good for you either. And you can't very well walk around angry all the time, or afraid either...
My heart goes out to you. I imagine the worst of it is when it comes at you out of nowhere...can't really prepare for the sneak attacks. Were your kids involved? How are they faring?
You know, when you look past your "defense mechanisms" you see a really awesome woman hiding in there. You should let her out more often. Your soft side will definitely make you more vulnerable, but it will also attract people who will prove to you that not everyone is cruel.
I can't imagine what damage was done to the guy that did this to you, to make him the way his is either.
So how does your rejection of "God" fit into all of this...?
(You know, you can always tell me to go to hades and mind my own business...)
Posted by: mk at December 7, 2007 5:14 AMA main trigger for me is anything that feels anything close to confrontational. For instance, I've been looking for a new job. The first few interviews were horrible. When asked the most innocent question, my hands would start shaking and my mouth would start to tremble. I had the intense urge to cry. Needless to say, I didn't get those jobs.
Certain arrogant looks on a man's face or in his eyes can send me into a panic attack. The feeling that I should fight or run but can't do either because it might not really be appropriate is confusing and humiliating.
Thank you for asking mk.
Posted by: Sally at December 7, 2007 12:49 AM**************************************************************************************************************************************************** Oh, panic attacks are the worst! Looks like we will have something to discuss at dinner. Sally, I used to suffer from them too. I was able to get help. My life is so much better now.
Posted by: heather at December 7, 2007 7:39 AMSally,
A main trigger for me is anything that feels anything close to confrontational. For instance, I've been looking for a new job. The first few interviews were horrible. When asked the most innocent question, my hands would start shaking and my mouth would start to tremble. I had the intense urge to cry. Needless to say, I didn't get those jobs.
Certain arrogant looks on a man's face or in his eyes can send me into a panic attack. The feeling that I should fight or run but can't do either because it might not really be appropriate is confusing and humiliating.
Wow! Now tell the truth and shame the devil. If San Fran does go down, don't you hope the "bast**d" that did this to you is vacationing there at the time!
That is so tragic that another human being has the power to get inside your head like that. And it can't be any good hating him/them because hate is not good for you either. And you can't very well walk around angry all the time, or afraid either...
My heart goes out to you. I imagine the worst of it is when it comes at you out of nowhere...can't really prepare for the sneak attacks. Were your kids involved? How are they faring?
You know, when you look past your "defense mechanisms" you see a really awesome woman hiding in there. You should let her out more often. Your soft side will definitely make you more vulnerable, but it will also attract people who will prove to you that not everyone is cruel.
I can't imagine what damage was done to the guy that did this to you, to make him the way his is either.
So how does your rejection of "God" fit into all of this...?
(You know, you can always tell me to go to hades and mind my own business...)
Posted by: mk at December 7, 2007 5:14 AM
.............................................
No mk, I can't wish harm upon another. The ugliness has to stop with me. I cannot pass it on even if it might be nice to volley it back. Know what I mean?
My kids were grown and certainly not around during the assault. My son and my nephew came to the emergency room to take me home. My nephew is a hot head and a 3rd degree black belt. He wanted to exact revenge and probably will if he ever runs into the man. My son was concerned about taking care of me and wanted to take out the ER doc.
I'm lying there with a concussion from being slammed into a sidewalk and knocked unconscious, a dislocated jaw, ruptured ear canal and a mouth full of broken teeth, covered in blood and in total shock. All she had to say to my son is that his mother should be more careful with who she hangs out with.
Never mind that the man was my fiance, an upstanding member of the community and the son of a rocket scientist retired from military employ.
Never mind that he had done this to me because I told him he was spoiled after receiving a check for $30,000 to start a new business venture.
It took at least a month before I wasn't constantly trembling and a few more months before I could remember exactly what had happened. I won't even go into the terror and humiliation of having to face him in court and explain to a judge my want of a restraining order. I had to have looked like a nut job hanging onto the table to try to control my trembling and unable to remember which parts that man was saying were true and what wasn't.
This is really hard to think about and remember. But it is cathartic and so much healthier than revenge. : )
I must confess to having fantasies about having that man's sewage system back up and him having to wade around in it.
Now if my toilets malfunction tomorrow............
And mk, what happened to me is your business. It's everyone's business. Every minute of every day a woman is being beaten by a man that has professed to love her. It has a huge effect on society yet is seldom addressed.
Now of course, yllas will belittle my experience. Abusive ass that he is.
Sally,
One of my dream vacations is to go to Albuquerque someday. My parents spoke very highly about it. Great temps, air quality, etc. They thought it was like heaven on earth! (That was years ago, but the dream is still very much alive in me!)
Anyway, I would love to come over for dinner someday...I'm not big on food, but it's probably because I don't have tasty food enough! Anyway, I'll let you know when my dream vacation is a reality! (Can't wait to give you that great, big hug!!!)
:)
Posted by: AB Laura at December 6, 2007 10:16 PM
..........................................
You are very welcome to come. We live very near the petroglyphs and the extinct volcanoes. We have a fabulous view of the city. There is nothing like the lights of Albuquerque that I have ever seen. I won't make you eat Laura. I'll take you up to the Sandia Crest and feed you the view. OK?
Posted by: Sally at December 8, 2007 3:20 AMSally,
I've been to Albuquerque. I liked it except for the ride up to the resturant at the top of Sanidia Peak. It was awful. We were on our way up when a storm came through and we rocked back and forth over the 1,000 ft drop between the second tower and the top. It was so bad that I had to have a few drinks before I could come back down:) But I've never knew how blue and green lightning strikes were, until I saw it on the top of the mountain. And when it thundered, everything shook, and it was loud!! Nothing like seeing a thunderstorm up close and personal at over 10,000 ft up.
AB Laura: One of my dream vacations is to go to Albuquerque someday. My parents spoke very highly about it. Great temps, air quality, etc. They thought it was like heaven on earth! (That was years ago, but the dream is still very much alive in me!)
Laura, New Mexico is my favorite state. I met my wife when she was living there, and we're going back Dec. 29, staying until Jan.3
ABQ is great but I think Santa Fe and Taos are better.
Posted by: Doug at December 8, 2007 7:48 PMSally,
I was on a girl scout trip and didn't see your reply til just now...I'll be hopin' for a sewer back in your honor.
That is a horrible story. I'm really sorry. I know I'm not the one that hit you, but I'm sorry that anybody did.
And your attitude is great. You're right, revenge wouldn't do anything. But I still think if it was an act of nature and the man was no longer around to hurt some other woman, I wouldn't be shedding any tears...which is different than actually wishing it would happen ;)
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