A&F is LAME!

wow, this is a great message to send A&F's "target market" .... 12-17 year olds in my estimation.

A&F has always wanted to soak teenagers for all their parents' money they can, and destroy them, body and soul, via sexual immorality in the process. Thus they suck in more ways than one, in every way they can.

The clothing's overpriced for what you get, but the sexual/cultural bill of goods they sell is totally worthless, yet costing teens their lives.

Yeah.....I don't know anyone that turns to A&F for their moral compass....

I'm surprised you aren't talking about A&F's blatant racist tendencies, like the whole line of shirts that belittled Asian people or their track record of putting all the Aryans out on the sales floor and all the "others" in the back.

Go to any t-shirt shop and you can find shirts just as offensive and sometimes even more offensive than A&F. Plus they only cost $18 as opposed to $80.

It's funny. Lighten up...

No kidding people. Lighten up. If you don't want your kids to wear the clothes then don't buy it for them. Simple as that. Other people's kids are NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

'Other people's kids are not your problem' -- what rot. No man is an island. Don't tell us you don't have any problems with anyone you didn't procreate?!

"Other people's kids are not your problem' -- what rot. No man is an island. Don't tell us you don't have any problems with anyone you didn't procreate?!"

Sure, but it is not my responsibility to raise OTHER PEOPLES KIDS! It is not my place to tell someone how to raise their child. I also hardly doubt a person wearing a T-shirt is going to cause to many problems.

"I also hardly doubt a person wearing a T-shirt is going to cause to many problems"

I have heard teens say that they dress a certain way to express who they are, if that is the case what would they be saying about themselves if they wore that shirt. "I'm a skank" comes to mind. "No worries about STD"s" comes to mind. You get the gist...

Meh. I've seen this shirt (or at least this saying on a shirt) many times.

Heck, my friend's fiance wears it when they go to parties together just to be funny.

Though I prefer nerdy shirts to blatantly "funny" ones like this.

One that I find terribly funny: "Don't drink and derive". *giggles*

"I have heard teens say that they dress a certain way to express who they are, if that is the case what would they be saying about themselves if they wore that shirt. "I'm a skank" comes to mind. "No worries about STD"s" comes to mind. You get the gist..."
Posted by: rosie at December 14, 2007 2:44 PM

What? I am not understanding what you are saying. If they wear that shirt they are expressing themselves? So if they wear that shirt they are telling people they are a "skank" How does someone wearing that T-shirt effect YOU? other than the fact you "don't like it"

Well Rae, It looks like friends fiance is a "skank" according to Rae anyway

Rosie
So is it okay if this women, who wears this shirt gets raped because it gave of the "I'm a skank" vibe and she "was asking or it?"

@JM: I don't think he's a "skank" for wearing the shirt. I think it's really funny. Especially because he wears it while he's out with my friend/his fiancee...as a joke. She thinks it's funny too, as she's the one who bought it for him. :-)

" So is it okay if this women, who wears this shirt gets raped because it gave of the "I'm a skank" vibe and she "was asking or it?" "

no it is not ok to abuse persons as a function of what they wear any more than it is ok to dissect and suction into a sink an individual and autonomous person as a function what stage of development in which they find themselves.

Please, people. Relax. The way you all want to run sex ed, kids probably don't even know what these shirts mean.

Rae,
I know your friends fiance isn't a "skank" I was just quoting what rosie said.

I saw a shirt this summer that said "F**k socks" I found it hilarious. People wear these kinds of shirts to be funny and clever.

How does someone wearing that T-shirt effect YOU

My point is that it effects SOMEONE!!!

Please don't pull the "oh so you're saying it's ok for someone to be raped" crap either, I said nothing close to that. Skanks give it away all the time.

"The way you all want to run sex ed, kids probably don't even know what these shirts mean."

Ha! But the way it IS run, they could probably come up with some "funnier" shirts on their own.

I have a shirt that says "Fat people are harder to kidnap". It doesn't mean I am challenging someone to try and kidnap me.

JKeller,
No it doesn't, but do you think it says anything about you?

I have a shirt that shows a heart monitor that's going, flat-lines, then continues going again and under it the shirt says:

"I'm sorry, for a minute there you bored me to death."

I also own a shirt that says, "Why do cats get nine lives and I don't even get one."

I also have a shirt that says, "I should be in the kitchen."

:D

"One that I find terribly funny: "Don't drink and derive". *giggles*"

Oh yeah Rae! Gotta love the math humor!

Rae,
I love the flat-line shirt! Too funny!

When I was about 10 yrs. old, I got 3 big bags of hand-me-down clothes from one of my mom's friends who had 2 daughters. It repeated "sock it to me" all across the front of the shirt. I only remember how much I wanted it because it was so soft & colorful. And I'll never forget the look on my mom & dad's faces when they saw it! My mom grabbed it away from me and said, "absolutely not!". I asked why & all my dad said is, "listen to your mother". I asked what it meant, and neither would tell me. They just walked away with the shirt & I never saw it again!

Don't even, Rosie. I just finished a huge project on sex ed.

35% of all schools in the US either PROHIBIT talk of contraceptives, or restrict conversation to its failures.

Abstinence-only sex ed is the largest federally funded education program, while comprehensive sex ed gets NO federal funding whatsoever... even though it has been proven time and again that abstinence-only sex ed has no bearing on when teens start having sex.

In fact, in the Netherlands over 50% of primary schools address contraceptives and safe sex, and are Dutch kids having more sex? Nope. In the Netherlands, the average age of a teen's first sexual experience is 17.7--higher than in the States.

Teens in Canada, France, the UK and Sweden are having about the same amount of sex as kids here are, but our pregnancy rates are twice as high. All those countries have comprehensive sex ed programs.

Our pregnancy rates are ten times higher than the Netherlands'.

In the Netherlands, teen girls may be given the Pill for free. In Canada sex ed is required in grades 4-10. In grades 9 and 10, students have access to free contraceptives.

OTHER countries--SMART countries know that kids will have sex. They keep the youth safe.

Oh, but wait. I forgot. Don't tell kids about sex and they just won't do it!

...or something...

Sure, but it is not my responsibility to raise OTHER PEOPLES KIDS! It is not my place to tell someone how to raise their child.

Posted by: JM at December 14, 2007 2:37 PM

And when one of those "OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS" rapes or shoots one of your kids? Then what? I was a public school teacher for years and all day long I raised other people's kids. I taught them to have respect for themselves and others even when their parents didn't. And those kids loved it and appreciated it. They told me their problems and asked me for advice and wanted me to help them with their friends, and family problems. Other people's kids are real people who deserve to live in a society that cares about their needs, not just one that preys upon their lesser nature to get their money. Selling those shirts to kids is no better than selling them drugs. It is degrading and exploitive.

Leah,

I was going to ask about your research but first, are you the same Leah that thought that on the SAT you start with 200 and if you answered all the questions wrong you could theoretically get a zero? If so, I don't want to question your statistics or anything else that needs numerical reasoning.

Uhh... that was not me.

I got a lot of info from Guttmacher, a bit from the Department of Education and the stuff about the Netherlands is from this article:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

35% of all schools in the US either PROHIBIT talk of contraceptives, or restrict conversation to its failures.

What about the other 65%?

Leah,

The population control initiatives of Europe are very effective. So much so that at the current birth rate there will be less than 250 Europeans at the end of the 21st century for every 1000 there were at the end of 2000. They don't need to worry of course because they have immigration from India, the middle east and north Africa to fill in the gap.

I found this quote from the article you posted. "With the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe (8.4 per 1,000 girls between 15 and 19), any initiative in the Netherlands deserves attention." I find it interesting that this is considered so praiseworthy. When you read medical research, delaying childbearing past the age of 20 is described as "an established risk factor" for disease. Of course it isn't women's health they are interested in promoting.

The most salient point of the article is the average age of first sexual intercourse. at 17.7 years. Sounds like some abstinence to me.

I think you guys are missing the point here. I have no problem with "funny" shirts, and this is not an issue of sex ed. The issue here is that these shirts are marketed to KIDS!!! Perhaps a shirt with innuendo like this would be totally appropriate for an ADULT, but that is not the consumer that A&F sells to. Their target market is the tween-teenager crowd. *THIS* is why selling these shirts is awful in my opinion. You are sending the message to 12-17 year olds that irresponsible premarital no-strings-attached sex is the accepted and desirable thing to do. It glorifies something that I think *most* parents, regardless of whether they are pro-choice, pro-life, Christian, non-christian, etc, etc, would all rather their 12 year olds NOT do. I think 99% of all parents would NOT tell their middle-high schooler that having an awkward one-night-stand is preferable over being bored. Nor would most parents advise their 12 year olds to go out and "make love, not babies".

Again ... if these shirts were sold in a store that primarily markets to adults, this would be a non-issue.

Hmm... well, Bethany, I imagine the other 65% talk about contraceptives, thank God.

Hippie, are you actually advocating teen pregnancy? I thought one common ground we all had was that we don't want teen prengnancies, but here you go saying it gets dangerous after the age of 20!

Of course a low teenage birthrate is praiseworthy! Even I, as an incredibly responsible teen, would not have been fit to raise a child. No teen is that mature, and many adults aren't either.

Yes, the teens of the Netherlands are abstaining for longer... yet they are still taught comprehensive sex ed. Girls are allowed the Pill for free. No abstinence-only!

Yet... here in the States, where abstinence-only sex ed is federally funded, we have a teen birthrate ten times as high and teens start having sex sooner. Coincidence? I doubt it.

Abortion, I get. I can see where you are coming from because I am a generally reasonable person. I disagree, obviously, but I understand your point of view.

Honestly, though, if you believe that teaching teens abstinence ONLY (yes, teach abstinence, but in conjunction with info on pregnancy, abortion (FACTS), STDs, contraception, sexuality, etc) is the right way to handle things, you have GOT to pull your heads out of the sand!

And now, I must go to bed. I have an Italian exam at 9:30 tomorrow. Yes. I am a loser. I have a Saturday class. AND... I spent a good part of this evening at the library... AND I enjoy studying. It was actually fun for me to go to coffee shops and study for the SAT. Fun.

No, Kristi--the point has been taken. The conversation just derailed a while back because of a comment I made about sex ed. :)

Seriously. 'Night!

You aren't a husband are you John?

Hmm... well, Bethany, I imagine the other 65% talk about contraceptives, thank God.

Then can you explain to me why this (below) is significant to you?

In fact, in the Netherlands over 50% of primary schools address contraceptives and safe sex, and are Dutch kids having more sex? Nope. In the Netherlands, the average age of a teen's first sexual experience is 17.7--higher than in the States.

So...over 50% of the Netherlands primary schools address contraceptives and safe sex, yet their teens are waiting till later to have sex...

While in the United States, over 50% of primary schools address contraceptives and safe sex, by your own admission, and yet they are NOT waiting until later to have sex.

Obviously, the education about "safe sex" is not the clincher here. There are other factors which you need to be looking at.

Kristi, excellent post!

I have a shirt that says "Fat people are harder to kidnap". It doesn't mean I am challenging someone to try and kidnap me.

Posted by: JKeller at December 14, 2007 5:53 PM********* Ha! I have that magnet on my frige, but I'm not fat:]

Leah,

Of course a low teenage birthrate is praiseworthy! Even I, as an incredibly responsible teen, would not have been fit to raise a child. No teen is that mature, and many adults aren't either.

____________________________________________________________

Most people in the world are parents before they are 20 and that has always been the case. Only in rich countries do we treat teens like babies who can't take care of anything. People rise to the level of expectations. If you treat teens like adults, they behave like adults.

[[fridge]] above post

No, Bethany. That 65% of American schools that are allowed to discuss contraceptives is not primary schools. That is secondary.

Leah, congratulations on your new love!

Okay Leah, what is the percentage of primary schools that do?

Bethany: I don't know. A very small percentage, if any.

Heather: Thank you! You're so sweet! :) :) :)

From PhysiciansForLife.org (with verifiable references):

Question: Does abstinence education really work?

Answer: YES.

1. The increase in abstinence is the major cause of the declining birth rates,
pregnancy rates and abortions among single teenage girls. This study is the most extensive study done on birth and pregnancy rates of single and married teens 15-19 years old. The research showed that 67% of the decline in pregnancy is due to a reduction in the proportion of sexually active girls, not to the increased use of contraception. The decrease in births dropped 51% due to abstinence. (Adolescent and Family Health Journal, April, 2003)

2. From 1990-1997 there was a 21.4% decrease in the proportion of adolescent males who have had sex in the past three months, a 34.1% decline in those males having four or more partners, and a 19.6% decline in the males who have ever had sex. (“The Declines in Adolescent Pregnancy, Birth and Abortion Rates in the 1990’s: What Factors Are Responsible?”,The Consortium of State Physicians Resource Councils, 1/7/99)

3. In 2001, 54% of US high school students reported never having had sexual intercourse, up from 46% in 1991.

Question: Has condom education proven effective?

Answer: NO
1. Out-of-wedlock birthrates to sexually experienced female teens increased 40.9% from 1982 to 1995, despite their increase in the use of condoms by 76%. There was a 41.8% increase in out-of-wedlock birthrates to sexually experienced females ages 15-19 from 1976-1995 despite comprehensive sex education being funded and abstinence until marriage not being funded.

2. The Center for Disease Control’s (CDC) “Programs That Work” initiative features five interventions that the CDC claims are quite effective, but not one of the five has data measuring a reduction in teen pregnancy or STD rates, even though the programs were developed for those purposes.

3. A study of 16 programs for parenting and pregnant teens that encouraged the use of contraceptives showed the following results: only 1 succeeded in increasing contraceptive use, 6 reported a decrease in pregnancies, 5 had no change and 2 had more pregnancies among girls in the programs than girls not in them. (“Improving Services for Pregnant and Parenting Teens,” Brindis and Philliber, PhDs., The Prevention Researcher, vol. 10, 9/03)

Oops, I forgot to include the link (there's a lot more info on that page):

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1436/27/

Please take a look at these charts:

http://projectreality.org/pdf/contentmgmt/1014_Teen_Birth_Rate_and_Funding.pdf

And please look at the explanation for the charts here:

http://projectreality.org/pdf/contentmgmt/Abstinence_6_07_07-2.pdf

Information which goes back to 1940...it's very interesting. Let me know your thoughts.
(this is a 2007 study)

I'd like to hear your comments on point #6 especially.

I wear a shirt that says:

Who Would Jesus Bomb