Well, this is a red letter day. Amanda Marcotte gets mentioned here twice. I see she also likes to wear red. Appropriate.

And there's more symmetry. This is also the same day her former boss, John Edwards, will terminate himself from the presidental race, much as he terminated Amanda for being too liberal.

Which right there explains how far left Amanda leans.

Case in point, Amanda's January 28 lambast against the March for Life, which included this gem:

[W]hy on earth are all those people standing around listening to speeches while their sex cells die unused inside them? A holocaust! Never mind the actual holocausts where people suffered and died, people with names, families, lives. You know, actual people. Once you start breathing and feeling, these supposed pro-lifers stop caring. I'd suggest they all go take a visit to the Holocaust Museum, which is in the same city as the march after all. Wonder if they could muster up some sympathy for victims of the actual Holocaust, or if real people just interest them less than potential people.

I wonder if Amanda has actually ever toured the Holocaust Museum. If she hasn't, I'd recommend she steer clear near the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. Sandy, MK, Jacque, and I arrived there January 21 when it opened at 10a, and the line of pro-lifers waiting to get in - mostly teens - stretched around the building. Our ticket into the exhibit was stamped 12:45p, so we had to wait nearly three hours.

Pro-lifers understand there's quite the correlation between the Jewish Holocaust and the Abortion Holocaust.

And someday there will be an Abortion Holocaust Museum, perhaps in DC, although likely in Wichita.

And Amanda will find herself in it, as disgraced and on the wrong side of history as the Nazi prison guards who also enabled the killing of millions of innocent people.

[HT: reader Phil]

"[W]hy on earth are all those people standing around listening to speeches while their sex cells die unused inside them? A holocaust!"

It shows such a lack of respect when someone can't even articulate the opposing side's position correctly. It's the same complete misunderstanding as the lame "every time you scratch your nose, you kill millions of potential lives" argument. I can make a case for bodily autonomy. I can make a case for personhood theory. Why can't some abortion-choice advocates show us the same respect?

Great Jill...I just finished crying over the holocaust museum and now you want me to visit an "abortion" museum...

I remember how angry I felt about the "St. Louis" and nobody giving her safe harbor. And how furious I was that all those people just stood around watching...or worse yet, telling themselves that there was nothing to see. The whole world.

I recently told Bethany not to get too comfortable here, because whenever things got quiet it meant that satan was gathering new minions to send our way...Remember when we thought Cam was bad???

Then came the wave of TR, Laura, Sally...all of whom turned out to be rather decent folk...

Abortion reminds me of that. Satan tried the holocaust and while it was devastating, eventually we all came to our senses. So he stepped it up a bit...and now we have abortion.

Kind of makes the civil war seem tame, doesn't it?

AMEN, Jill!

Those pictures are horrible..both bring tears to my eyes. What an absolute shame.

:(

"Then came the wave of TR, Laura, Sally...all of whom turned out to be rather decent folk.."

Please MK. They laugh in our faces.

Ahhhhhh...but they're still here aren't they? And they've accidentally(?) let their human sides show once in a while...

Truly Jasper, it's about to get much worse...

You'll be wishing for a Laura or two. God help us!

"Why can't some abortion-choice advocates show us the same respect?"

Bobby, I think it's not a lack of respect (or maybe not just a lack of respect). I think it's an attempt to make her argument, which is a fertilized cell that is aborted is morally equivalent to the unfertilized egg. Believe me, it is hard for the pro-choice crowd to understand and/or respect any arguments against the right to abortion. If all I heard was "abortion is murder" or the rantings of Jasper or Hisman, I'd have no respect either. You and mk, however, and a few others, seem like reasonable people. We just disagree whether abortion is wrong or not. We'd probably get along fine if we kept that topic off the table.

Hal,
maybe it's the "others" that hit that nerve with you that you don't want "hit" because they work on your conscience. Some don't want to just give you great, big cyberhug when you promote the killing of the preborn. I don't think they are looking for your "respect", either. If you are a pro-abort, you obviously don't know the meaning of the word "respect".

I think we'd get along well too, Hal. And I see what you mean that she is trying to show there is no difference between a fertilized and unfertilized egg. But it seems to me that when people say things about the nose scratch and what she said above, they are trying to show that if you follow our arguments to their conclusion, then you end up with an absurdity (which is a perfectly valid form of argument.) But consider the fact that one of our criteria for the fertilized eggs humanity is that it has it's own set of DNA distinct from the mother. This is one criteria that pro-lifers claim (whether you agree with it or not) shows that the fertilized egg is a human. In other words, pro-lifers argue that a NECESSARY condition for something to be a human being is for it to have its own set of DNA distinct from the mother. An unfertilized egg does not have this. So right there, one cannot apply our own logic to argue that the unfertilized egg or skin cells are human beings. We may still disagree about this, but I have never heard the big abortion-choice advocates (who are quite informed about the debate) like Peter Singer and David Boonin make that argument. God love you Hal.

Truly Jasper, it's about to get much worse...

You'll be wishing for a Laura or two. God help us!

Posted by: mk at January 30, 2008 10:54 AM
++++++++++++

Why is that, mk? you're scaring me!

Hal,

That was a really interesting way of putting that...

a fertilized cell that is aborted is morally equivalent to the unfertilized egg.

So what do you think happens at the moment of fertilization? I mean, don't you ever wonder at the enormity of it all? Something, some intanglible, unidentifiable thing happens, and that which was inanimate suddenly becomes animate. Something that was not alive, is suddenly alive. Aren't you awestruck by that "something"...that life force? Doesn't that make any difference to you at all?

I mean these questions sincerely...like when you stare into the ocean and realize how small you, or at the stars and realize how insignificant you are, or see a bird fly or a rainbow and simply marvel at the wonder of it all...that moment, that second, when life begins...I don't know, it's so HUGE! And unfathomable. And unknowable. And above me. And beyond my comprehension. I just feel that I owe that moment, that ability, the utmost respect...

Anon,

It just seems to go in waves...and we ended one bad "scene", so it follows that a bigger one is coming...always be prepared. When I first came on here Amanda, Midnite and Erin where the posters...We thought they were awful because we'd never heard people express these opinions so bluntly before...but they are wonderful people with one tiny (okay, huge) flaw. They are pro choice. Then Cam joined us...we thought he was the worst of the worst and he made Amanda, Midnite (remember Dahmer, midnite???) and Erin seem like candidates for the nunnery. The came TR, Sally and Laura. Made Cam look like Mr. Rogers...

So it stands to reason that satans next footsoldiers will step it up a notch...

I hope I'm wrong...

Who but God goes up to the heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fist? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name—and his son's name? Tell me if you know!

Proverbs 30:4 NLT

When people understand events clearly, we often say that they "see the big picture." This passage in Proverbs makes the point that the clearest view of the "big picture" will always include God. The sequence of rhetorical questions helps us consider the awesome identity and capacity of God. Much like the litany of questions that God showered on Job (Job 38:1-41:34), these push us toward humble and silent worship.

Agur was feeling overwhelmed (30:1), insignificant (30:2), and limited (30:3). But when he turned away from his smallness to contemplate God's greatness, an atmosphere of confidence filled the rest of the chapter. He began with a little picture, no bigger than himself, but he soon looked at the big picture and forget that he was weary and worn out. God gave him a new and refreshing point of view.

WISE WAYS One of the best remedies for a weary and tired spirit is to contemplate the majesty and greatness of God. How have you found that to be true?

Dear Lord, when I look at all you have made, I know it makes me feel smaller, but it also fills me with wonder over how great you are! I worship you.

adapted from The One Year® Book of Proverbs by Neil S. Wilson, Tyndale House Publishers (2002), entry for January 30

mk,

gotcha!

Anon,(11:28)

Exactly! It's all just so BIG!

Hi MK, yes it's big and we're insignificant. The creation of new life is a wonder, that's for sure.

And Amanda will find herself in it, as disgraced and on the wrong side of history as the Nazi prison guards who also enabled the killing of millions of innocent people.

So pro-choicers=Nazi prison guards? Really? Wow. Really?

If all I am is a prison guard, where does that leave women who have had abortions, Jill?

The walking wounded.

The one's that stand by and watch innocent victims being killed for an evil agenda.

Anonymous, Carla nailed it.

If we really wanted to hurt babies we would start mentally, physically and emotionally abusing them a few months after birth when all of their senses kick in.

Some women just don't want to be pregnant. They could live in a nice house, have a good job whatever and still have an abortion. Likewise there could be a poor woman, uneducated and unemployed and she can have as many children as she want's. There could be a fetus with a horrible birth defect and its mother could chose to continue with the pregnancy. We are not saying "All fetuses who are yada yada yada will be aborted."

We aren't going after all fetuses, or any fetuses. If no one wanted to abort we just wouldn't have abortion. Also most fetuses do not feel pain and the months, sometimes years of fear and torture of the Jews and others during the Holocaust is worth more then to compare it to a possible few minutes of pain.

What evil agenda? So every woman who has had an abortion has had an evil agenda? I'm sure Carla had no evil or malicious intent when she aborted, I think most women do what they feel is best for everyone.

If we really wanted to hurt babies we would start mentally, physically and emotionally abusing them a few months after birth when all of their senses kick in.

No difference, Jess. And women who have abortions are much more likely to abuse children from subsequent pregnancies, so there you go.

What evil agenda? So every woman who has had an abortion has had an evil agenda? I'm sure Carla had no evil or malicious intent when she aborted, I think most women do what they feel is best for everyone.

That's why women are many times the second victims of abortion.
It all goes back to the people who make money off convincing women they're worth more without children.

So women who abort do so to hurt their children? I have never met anyone who aborted because they wanted to hurt the fetus. Most people won't abort if they think the fetus could feel pain. And abortion doesn't mentally or emotionally hurt the fetus. I mean unless they go to heaven and Jesus tells them their Mom hated them and they will never be loved. But I don't think Jesus would rub it in their face. I also think as fetuses they wouldn't care why they were in heaven, just as long as they're warm and cozy.

I don't want to bug you Bethany but could I see the study you're referring too? I think I remember seeing it and I'm curious about the rest of it.

mk:

Satan hates to hear us pray. I was thinking of posting this on the previous thread. So, I'll put it here too. Let us pray,

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

So they don't have an evil agenda. they are just misinformed.
But like I said some women just don't want children.

So women who abort do so to hurt their children? I have never met anyone who aborted because they wanted to hurt the fetus.

Most people who abuse their children don't do so because they want to hurt their children, but because they are overwhelmed, stressed, depressed, etc. Yet, the result is the same. The child is abused.

Many people who have abortions, don't do so because they want to kill a child, but because they feel that they will not be able to raise a child and they seek to end their pregnancy. Yet the result is the same. The child dies.

Wait, do any of you think I was sent by the devil to bother you? I wasn't, and if I really bother you I'll leave and never come back. Not because of the prayer, I pray often myself, but for the fact you are so disgusted by what I say.

Bethany,
I know & agree that Carla nailed it. I was actually responding to: "So pro-choicers=Nazi prison guards? Really? Wow. Really?"

I didn't specify that. I'm sorry.

I don't want to bug you Bethany but could I see the study you're referring too? I think I remember seeing it and I'm curious about the rest of it.

Oh it's no problem, Jess. ;-) I have actually more than one study, though...here is one of them:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1651-2227.2005.tb01823.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=apa

If you'd like to see more, let me know, and I'll see if I can pull them all up for you.

Bethany I agree that some women might not abort given better opportunities. I'm not talking about CPC's, I'm talking about national free health care, better public schools (more funding) and Mom friendly jobs would be a good start.

Sorry, Jess, but I think all reasons to abort are self-centered and that, my friend, is an evil agenda. The "what I want is the only thing that matters" idea does not come from God. And if it doesn't come from God it is not good, thus evil.

However, many women don't realize that until after-the-fact and are miserable because of it.

Here's some more I just found again:

Abuse is more likely to occur among "wanted" children. Canadian psychiatrist Philip Ney reports the same findings. He writes, "When I investigated the relationship between child abuse and abortion and reported a direct correlation, people were angry and astonished. It appeared that the rate of child abuse did not decrease with freely available abortions. In fact, the opposite was true. In parts of Canada where there were low rates of abortion there were low rates of child abuse. As the rates of abortion increased, so did child abuse…Indeed, it is a vicious cycle. That is, parents who have been involved in abortion are more likely to abuse and neglect their children. Mothers and fathers who were abused as children are more likely to abort their child" (Deeply Damaged, p.91).

And here's another study that is much more thorough:

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijpn/vol6n2/abortion.xml
Induced Abortion and Child-Directed Aggression Among Mothers of Maltreated Children

Ok Anonymous but what about those who don't believe in your religion? Are they wrong simply because they don't believe in what you believe?

Bethany,
Thanks for the article I just read it. It makes sense, if a woman is poor and stressed and has enough problems she would abort and she does nothing to fix her present situation it will not improve just by having a child. That being said I don't think it's the fact these women abort but what drove them to abort that is the reason they're abusive.

I love love love my evolution class! My teacher is a badass. I just had to get that out.

Bethany,
I know & agree that Carla nailed it. I was actually responding to: "So pro-choicers=Nazi prison guards? Really? Wow. Really?"
I didn't specify that. I'm sorry.

That's okay..there are so many anonymous's that I'm getting confused all the time.

I can make a case for bodily autonomy. I can make a case for personhood theory. Why can't some abortion-choice advocates show us the same respect?

Bobby, good point, indeed. You're a rare guy.

Doug

Dear Jess,
Oh, for all babies to feel all warm and cozy in their safe little wombs....as God intended. The womb is no longer so safe, eh?
Stick around, Jess. You are a sweetie and seem to be learning a lot. :)

Truly Jasper, it's about to get much worse...

MK, what have I missed? Why do you think this?

Yes, Jess. That's it exactly.

And that girl needs to shut up. I mean seriously. She's making huge assumptions about the pro-life movement that she doesn't need to.

Thanks for the article I just read it. It makes sense, if a woman is poor and stressed and has enough problems she would abort and she does nothing to fix her present situation it will not improve just by having a child.

Jess, then did abortion really help her problem? Are the pro-choicers reaching out to these women, to better their conditions, so they can learn how to improve their lives?

To add to the last post I made, pregnancy obviously wasn't her problem, if she continues to have the problems after having another child. If you give them an abortion and send them back into the conditions they were in before, how are you really helping women?

Anonymous: If you are a pro-abort, you obviously don't know the meaning of the word "respect".

You just pegged the Irony Meter.

If you had a rational argument, you wouldn't need silly stuff like "pro-abort." When Pro-Choicers start calling you a "woman-slaver," it'd be equal.

Doug

Thank you Carla. I have a question, you don't have to answer it, why did you abort and did you feel any angry or malice towards your unborn child before you aborted?

PIP you're a badass, gansta style...
jk, no it's ok : )

Haha! Doug, you're alive!

lol that's right Jess betta not challenge me!

Jess,
Chillax a bit. It's only my opinion. You questioned my opinion. I gave you another opinion.

And of course I think they are wrong, because that's what I believe. How can I possibly, with my faith, think for a moment that it's not evil? It's also fair to say that I don't expect you to think it's evil if you do not believe that killing an innocent child in the womb is evil.

""woman-slaver," it'd be equal."

They call us anti-choicers.

"Jess, then did abortion really help her problem? Are the pro-choicers reaching out to these women, to better their conditions, so they can learn how to improve their lives? "

That's what I want to know. No, the abortions didn't help them. Yes, I do know pro-choicers who want to help them get out of poverty/bad relationships/whatever they need so that they could have the child if they wanted to.

But then again, some women just don't want to be pregnant.

Physical punishment - I know some people are totally against it, but my siblings and I got spanked as did every kid on our block, as far as I now, in the 1960s and 1970s. Not a serial-killer or abusive parent among them, now, as far as I know.

Once in a while I'll see a kid acting in a certain way, and think, "Now that kid needs a good spanking...."

Thank you Anon, for understanding where I'm coming from.

Been watching, My Super Sweet Sixteen, Doug?

""woman-slaver," it'd be equal."

PIP: They call us anti-choicers.

I do think you are against the legal choice, and that is an awesomely cute picture, PIP.

Ah it's on TV right now I'm watching it!

Doug,
Are you in favor of abortion? If you had to vote for or against it, which one would you pick? I would pick against it, thus anti-abortion. If you pick for it, you are pro-abortion. It's simply the shoe that fits. It's not silly, it's a cold, hard fact that your side never wants to admit.

AUUGGGHHHH! NOT THE LORD'S PRAYER!!!!

Oh no...I'm melting...MELTING!!!!!!

*shrieks horribly and dies*

Seriously, though, what's next? Gonna spritz holy water at us with a water gun?

MK - I should have read ahead. You see a progression, as far as things 'getting worse.'

So, we're in a handbasket, eh?

Doug, theres a little bit of difference in simply spanking a child and throwing objects at them, slapping them around, kicking them, biting them, etc.

But I agree that spanking can be good, used correctly and administered with love. Glad we can agree on that.

Been watching, My Super Sweet Sixteen, Doug?

Jess, no, and ne'er have. I take it they talk about some kids needing a butt-whippin' or sometin' like dat?

Doug

"I do think you are against the legal choice, and that is an awesomely cute picture, PIP."

Thanks :)

Pregnant women have many choices that don't involve killing their children. Similarly we are most likely anti-abortion, if pro-life isn't doing it for you. If pro-choice is simply "choice" while campaign aggressively for abortion why does it offend you if you are called pro-abortion? If you are offended at pro-abortion shouldn't we similarly feel disrespected if we are called anti-choice?

You know during Catholic mass when the priest comes and flings the holy water at you with the round thing? I'm sorry I don't know any of the correct terms. I never seem to get any. Oh well you bless yourself anyway when you come in and leave.

Jess,

Sometimes, I'm afraid that we aren't clear about what we mean when we say things about abortion.

At least for me, I think of abortion and the whole mentality as a "thing" of it's own. I hate it. It makes me sick. I think it's evil, satanic, depraved, heartless, cold, selfish, and on and on...

But I don't think that people who are prochoice are all of those things. I think they just buy into the "mentality"...

I mean, I really, really, really do believe that satan exists and that he can twist truth and make lies seem so appealing, that good and decent folk fall for it. He's no amateur.

Satan is the only "person" that I think fits all those nasty descriptions. Oh, and maybe SoMG. But I'm not entirely sure that they aren't the same person. (kidding, I'm kidding..sort of)

So please don't even think of leaving. Most of those remarks (at least mine) aren't directed towards people but rather, the lie that abortion is...did that make any sense?

Jess,
Thank you for thanking me! You're sweet.

Jess --

I'm sure you see the ultimate point of the study: If a person deems children disposable before they are born --- it doesn't change after birth. A person who thinks nothing of having one baby sliced up, wouldn't hesitate to shove a toddler around, if they weren't meeting the parent's needs.

Choosing to abort is a selfish choice and has nothing to do with the quality of schools. That's really a ridiculous arguement. Like the woman who is that concerned about the quality of schools would not be smart enough to use some protection or consider moving to a place with better school, homeschool or private schooling.

That is such a liberal nonsensical argument based on the idea that dollars educate children --- not parents (with the help of teachers).

Anon, (prolife),

Amen.

Erin,

Seriously, though, what's next? Gonna spritz holy water at us with a water gun?

Too late. Already been done...lol

Haha! Doug, you're alive!

Bobby, yeah, and in New Jersey (if you can call that living....)

Had a job this weekend in NYC, but it got canceled, and this one here - in an oil refinery - is held up because we were supposed to get drug tests prior to arriving.

The bar/steakhouse built right into this hotel opens at 5 p.m. and just killing some time, for now.

I think I get Jess's share of steak.

Doug

No Doug it's about kids throwing themselves extravagant birthday parties, think hundreds of thousands of $, and complain if they can't get the performer they want or whatever. It's an MTV show. The one now is some girl who arrived at her party in an ice cream truck and she's going to have break dancers and a skateboard ramp thing and performers and it's all going to be inside a mall.

This was one of the cheaper ones : (

That Amanda Marcotte looks like such a peach to be around I bet.

"Oh well you bless yourself anyway when you come in and leave."

Interesting thing about that (for the Catholics out there), when one blesses themselves with holy water, it removes venial sin. However, the act of contrition and the receiving of the Eucharist at mass also remove venial sin. So unless you have venially sinned in between receiving communion and leaving mass, there's no reason to dip into the font when leaving.

Doug, did you get a chance to see the other day that I had a funny dream about HisMan teasing you for wearing some kind of funny blue hat?

You know during Catholic mass when the priest comes and flings the holy water at you with the round thing? I'm sorry I don't know any of the correct terms. I never seem to get any. Oh well you bless yourself anyway when you come in and leave.

I think that MAY be better than getting hit in the eyeball with the holy water. No matter how many times it happens, it startles me all the same lol.

Doug, lol, why eat steak when you can have a nice shiny apple?

LB,
If this country wasn't so status obsessed, ignorant and overall depressing then yes, I think abortion would go down. Take a look at Denmark.

Bobby,

I use to drive a woman to daily mass (she's dead now) and she would practically shower at the font. Then she'd splash you and anyone else within 40 feet of her...the whole time mumbling "I love holy water..."

And Father Corapi tells the story of the woman that workes as a hair dresser and filled her "spritz" bottles with Holy Water, sprayin' and prayin' the whole time she was workin' on their hair...

"So unless you have venially sinned in between receiving communion and leaving mass"

Yes.

Jess,

Doug, lol, why eat steak when you can have a nice shiny apple?

Snow White fell for that one too...

Anon: Are you in favor of abortion?

No, on balance I'm against it.
......

If you had to vote for or against it, which one would you pick?

Against. All other things being equal, I don't "like" abortion. "Yuck." And there are costs and risks which are avoided by preventing pregnancy. Same as for people talking on phones while driving and thus going to darn slow. I'm against it, but wouldn't outlaw it - sometimes people really need to take or make the call. Likewise, while I don't see abortion as "good" in a vacuum, I would not prohibit people from having them.
......

I would pick against it, thus anti-abortion.

Yes, you are anti-abortion, no question about it.
......

If you pick for it, you are pro-abortion.

Nope, because it's not me picking it. I leave it to the pregnant woman to decide. I am for her free choice, not abortion, per se.
......

It's simply the shoe that fits. It's not silly, it's a cold, hard fact that your side never wants to admit.

Wrong - it's you pretending that the "yes or no" of Pro-Choice is the same as the "yes" of pro-abortion, and that is not true. "Yes or no" is not the same as "yes." If you need to put emotional spin on stuff, or engage in buzzwordism, it's your decision.

The issue is if as a society we let women have the legal choice of abortion. You are against that, in general - I assume, and you certain are against abortion, again in general. Pro-Choicers are for women having the legal choice. If nobody wants abortions, then there won't be any, and Pro-Choicers are okay with that. Anybody that was actually "pro-abortion" would not be.

Doug

*mk slips me some holy water in my crystal lite*
I try not to leave my drinks unattended.

Yup that's me mk, poisoning guys with my apples, luring little children into my ginger bread house... : P

Doug, lol, why eat steak when you can have a nice shiny apple?

Jess, because:

1.) Wasn't there a story about a nasty old snake and a woman named "Eve" and an apple....?

2.) And then there was a story about a nasty old queen and a poisoned apple and a girl named "Snow White...."

3.) They say that "The third time is the charm," and call me superstititous, but I'm not down with that.

Doug

""So unless you have venially sinned in between receiving communion and leaving mass"

Yes."

LOL, Jess.

Jess, that MTV program just goes to show you that child labor laws are too strict - I think those kids should do 12 or 16 hours a day in a nice sweatshop factory for a couple months.

Doug

I"ve heard Fr Corapi tell that story too, MK. AWESOME.

Doug,

It scares me that we think alike sometimes...lol

Jess,

Holy Crystal Lite, Batman...

Doug, did you get a chance to see the other day that I had a funny dream about HisMan teasing you for wearing some kind of funny blue hat?

Hey Erin - no, I haven't been online for a couple days and started with this thread, then will work backwards in time. I will certainly check it out.

I daydreamed that the propeller on yllas's beany was turning at over 30 RPM, so I figured it was a good day.

Doug

"Wasn't there a story about a nasty old snake and a woman named "Eve" and an apple....?"

Ha! No, common misconception. The Genesis account only talks about the fruit that Adam partook of, not an apple. Oh yeah!

Doug,
Oh, I see. You're against it, but if the woman wants it, you're for it.

What about the babies that don't want it? What do you think the buzzword would be if they were able to choose it?

Hey Jess,
Had to make Shrek mac and cheese and hotdogs. I know, I know. Bleck. But the kiddoes love it. :)
I will answer your questions. No problem. Why did I abort? I was desperate, a woman in crisis, I was terrified, I couldn't see a way "out of the mess I had made" I wanted to be a teacher, who would date me??? I couldn't see any other way out, and did not seek any voices of reason. I really didn't know what to do. I was pretty naive about it all. My mom took my sister for one, so I guess that was my example. If I had met a sweet pea named Bethany I KNOW I would have a 17 year old with me today. By the way, I named my baby girl Aubrey. She waits for me in heaven.

Did I ever feel anger against my unborn child? No. I didn't think it was a child. I was told it was a clump of cells. It wasn't until 5 years later when I miscarried a child into my hand that I realized WHAT I HAD DONE!(That is why the pictures of Bethany's Blessing touch me so much!)

Cue nasty comments from Sally and Laura....

Jess, if you click on my name, you can read my abortion story on my blog. It is in the right sidebar. I hate to turn Jill's blog into mine. :)

It scares me that we think alike sometimes...lol

MK, I've often thought we are very alike in many ways.

My wife and I visited the Cathedral Church of San Francis of Assisi in Santa Fe, NM, around New Year's, and it brought tears to my eyes - the beauty, the history, the emotion expressed in the design, fixtures, and art.

Right across from the Cathedral is the Institute of American Indian Arts Museum. The current exhibit was The Disappeared/Los Desaparecidos "Works by 27 contemporary Latin American artists about those who disappeared at the hands of their own governments." Talk about horror.....

There were also works of art, poetry, and pictures by native American military veterans; amazing to see and to get some feeling of how they felt and feel.

And 'cuz I felt like loosing some water weight, I just listended to my man Luciano one more time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VATmgtmR5o4

Ah, Puccini, you're still there. Almost a century later, one can reach right through a tunnel in the air and touch the beauty.

Doug

Pregnant women have many choices that don't involve killing their children.

PIP, the legal choice or not is the issue, however on abortion boards - that's a given.
......

Similarly we are most likely anti-abortion, if pro-life isn't doing it for you.

"Pro-Life" is fine with me. An no argument that you are anti-abortion.
......

If pro-choice is simply "choice" while campaign aggressively for abortion why does it offend you if you are called pro-abortion?

It's advocating that abortion be legal. It's not really wanting abortion.
......

If you are offended at pro-abortion shouldn't we similarly feel disrespected if we are called anti-choice?

Well, yeah, it's largely the same thing. Agreed that "anti-choice" isn't really needed in the debate, since pro-life and pro-choice are understood by all, or even if not, easily clarifable by simply asking.

Lol...Carla, I STILL love kraft mac 'n cheese and hot dogs. I even cut the hot dogs up into little slices and dip them in ketchup still. My taste buds have yet to advance much past an 8 year old, lol!

Carla,

Aubrey means "Queen of the Elves"...I love it. Her and Blessing are taking good care of the Liliths etal...

Doug, Oh, I see. You're against it, but if the woman wants it, you're for it.

Yes - on it's own I don't "like" abortion, but I think a woman should be able to have one if she wants, to a point in gestation.
.....

What about the babies that don't want it?

They don't have any such conceptions or desires. To a point in gestation there is no mental awareness, period.
.....

What do you think the buzzword would be if they were able to choose it?

In the English language I like words with "L's" in them - often they sound very pretty IMO.

If there the unborn were thinking, feeling beings like the pregnant woman, it would make a difference to me - thus I mention that point in gestation.

I understand you feeling that "a life is a life," etc., but while the pregnant woman is undeniably a thinking, feeling person, to a point in pregnancy the unborn are not.

Doug

""So unless you have venially sinned in between receiving communion and leaving mass"

Yes."

Bobby: LOL, Jess.

Jess not bein' the biggest carnivore, I thought it might be "veally sinned," in her case.

Doug,

I know what you mean...ah, sweet mystery of life...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9EoyEb1wTs

Ha! No, common misconception. The Genesis account only talks about the fruit that Adam partook of, not an apple. Oh yeah!

:: laughing ::

Bobby, you are so right, and I knew that, once upon a time. The old gray brain, she ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be....

Doug,

I thought it might be "veally sinned," in her case.

As in, "She was veally, veally bad..."
Oh, that's mortal sin, isn't it?

Okay, "She wasn't veally all that bad!

Ve haf vays to make you talk.

My taste buds have yet to advance much past an 8 year old, lol!

Erin, don't know about your taste buds, having never seen them, but the outside of you looks awful good.

So they don't have an evil agenda. they are just misinformed.
But like I said some women just don't want children.

Posted by: Jess at January 30, 2008 12:10 PM

Jess,

Your last sentence is something an 8 year old child would be expected to say about cleaning their room. Not an adult woman about her baby. If she can't raise the child, there are plenty of people who are willing.

Believe me, it is hard for the pro-choice crowd to understand and/or respect any arguments against the right to abortion. If all I heard was "abortion is murder" or the rantings of Jasper or Hisman, I'd have no respect either.

Posted by: Hal at January 30, 2008 11:06 AM

Sorry to bring this post up late in the thread, but I wanted to weigh in on this with you Hal.
True. We will probably never ever agree on when life begins or the right to abort. It is impossible for us to understand your arguments for abortion. So let's set those issues aside.

Our side is not just about the "abortion is murder" argument. We bring up other issues surrounding this issue every day. Just to name a few: the illegalities and injustices and malpractice and abortion related deaths, and illegal late term abortions,and unsanitary abortion clinic conditions, and statutory rape cover ups, the emotional and physical harm abortion causes, the domestic abuse that surrounds it, and the infertility resulting from abortions, and unlicensed quacks perfoming abortions, etc.... etc...., but rarely if ever do any of the PCers on this site want to honestly acknowledge that these are very real issues and acknowledge they are supporting them by supporting the pro-choice agenda.

Where is the outrage for these occurances??

I would think all of the PCers would be more upset than the PLers since your side fought and won the right to safe legal abortions for women and people for the sake of the almighty dollar have bastardized the notion of "safe and legal" abortion.

Jill posted the article and video of the Spanish abortions clinics who were in clear violation of government law by aborting viable healthy fetuses. Where was the outrage from ANY of you?

Erin gave me the chills when she posted some trivial issue about the Gloden Globes being cut short when there were photos of a mutilated baby staring right at her.

Erin,

What a coincidence, I mentioned an 8 year old in my last post and I hadn't read yours yet.

Erin,
You simply must come for lunch then!!! :)

The old proabort mantras never change, however disproven they may be.

This garbage about prolifers not caring about anyone who is already born, for instance.

In addition to their calloused, cruel disregard for innocent human life in the womb, the proaborts aren't particularly concerned for breathing, ex-utero folks- you remember, these women killed by "safe & legal abortions"- either:

Diane Adams, 28, died 1992
Eurice Agbagaa, 26, died 1989
Leigh Ann Alford, 34, died 2003
Demitrice Andews, 22, died 1988
Mickey Apodaca, 28, died 1984
Gloria Aponte, 20, died 1986
Charisse Ards, 20, died 1989
Barbara Auerbach, 38, died 1981
KB, age 19, died 1988
Jacqueline Bailey, 29, died 1977
Brenda Banks, 35, died 1989
Myrta Baptiste, 26, died 1989
Lisa Bardsley, 26, died 1995
Junette Barnes, 27, died 1988
Deanna Bell, 13, died 1992
Brenda Benton, 35, died 1987
Rosario Bermeo, 30, died 1983
Janet Blaum, 37, died 1974
Cassandra Bleavins, 20, died 1971
Linda Boom, 35, died 1995
Diane Boyd, 19, died 1981
Mary Bradley, 41, died 1985
Dorothy Brown, 37, died 1974
Chanelle Bryant, 22, died 2004
Dorothy Bryant, 22, died 1986
Belinda Byrd, 37, died 1987
Janeth Caldwell, 36, died 1987
Geneva Calton, 21, died 1979
Joan Camp, 22, died 1985
Marla Cardamone, 18, died 1989
Teresa Causey, 17, died 1988
Claudia Caventou, 33, died 1988
Patricia Chacon, 16, died 1984
Colleen Chambers, 34, died 1984
Sandra Chmiel, 35, died 1975
Gwendolyn Cliett, 29, died 1980
Margaret Clodfelter, 19, died 1980
Pamela Colson, 31, died 1994
Geneva Colton, 21, died 1979
Andrea Corey, 31, died 1993
Liliana Cortez, 22, died 1986
Edith Cote, 38, died 1991
Sheryl Cottone, 23, died 1981
Twila Coulter, 21, died 1972
Carol Cunningham, 21, died 1986
Betty Damato, 26, died 1980
Mary Ann Dancy, 32, died 1990
Angel Dardie, 22, died 1982
Barbaralee Davis, 18, died 1977
Glenda Davis, 31, died 1989
Kathy Davis, 26, died 1987
Margaret Davis, 33, died 1971
Sharon Davis, 17, died 1983
Marina DeChapel, 34, died 1978
Arlin dela Cruz, age 19, died 1992
Synthia Dennard, 24, died 1989
Alerte Desanges, 36, died 1994
Barbara Dillon, 22, died 1981
Jane Doe of Newark, 20, died 1993
Laniece Dorsey, 17, died 1986
Tamika Dowdy, 22, died 1998
Gwendolyn Drummer, 15, died 1972
Duarte, Anjelica, 21, died 1991
Evelyn Dudley, 38, died 1973
Sherry Emry, 26, died 1978
Georgianna English, 32, died 1980
Maureen Espinoza, 16, died 1997
Gladyss Estanlisao, 28, died 1989
Erna Fisher, 18, died 1988
Bonnie Fix, 38, died 1974
Sharon Floyd, 18, died 1975
Linda Fondren, 21, died 1974
Janet Forster, 18, died 1971
Cristella Forte, 16, died 1986
Glenna Jean Fox, 17, died 1989
Jammie Garcia, 14, died 1994
Josefina Garcia, died 1985
Marie Gibson, 34, died 1980
Christen Gilbert, 19, died 2005
Kathleen Gilbert, 29, died 1985
Christina Goesswein, 19, died 1990
Gaylene Golden, 21, died 1985
Maria Gomez, 39, died 1976
Edrica Goode, 21, died 2007
Shary Graham, 34, died 1982
Doris Grant, 32, died 1971
Debra Gray, 34, died 1989
Laura Grunas, 30, died 2006
Carolina Gutierrez, 21, died 1996
Angela Hall, 27, died 1991
Sharon Hamplton, 27, died 1996
Arneta Hardaway, 18, died 1985
Gracalynn "Tammy" Harris, 19, died 1997
Wilma Harris, 17, died 1974
L'Echelle Head, 21, died 2000
Sheila Hebert, 27, died 1984
Donna Heim, 20, died 1986
Lou Ann Herron, 33, died 1998
Moris Helen Herron, 26, died 1983
Rhonda Hess, 20, died 1982
Betty Hines, 21, died 1971
Shirley Hollis, 30, died 1991
Denise Holmes, 24, died 1970
Barbara Hoppert, 16, died 1983
Mary Ives, 28, died 1983
Karretu Jabbie, 24, died 1989
Louchrisser Jackson, 23, died 1977
Sandra Kaiser, 14, died 1984
Patricia King, 24, died 1987
Giselene Lafontant, 25, died 1993
Minnie Lathan, 41, died 1978
Barbara Lerner, 30, died 1981
Susan Levy, 30, died 1992
Cora Lewis, 23, died 1992
Sara Lint, 22, died 1970
Maria Lira, 19, ded 1974
Suzanne Logan, 34, died 1992
Diana Lopez, 25, died 2002
Linda Lovelace, 21, died 1980
Elva Lozada, died 1964
Deborah Lozinski, 17, died 1985
Dawn Mack, 21, died 1991
Michelle Madden, 18, died 1986
Sharon Margrove, 25, died 1970
Haley Mason, 22, died 2001
Gail Mazo, 27, died 1979
Sophie McCoy, 17, died 1990
Rita McDowell, 16, died 1975
Myria McFadden, 28, died 1987
Evangeline McKenna, 38, died 1974
Kathy McKnight, 36, died 1993
Kendra McLeod, 22, died 1998
Lynn McNair, 24, died 1979
Dawn Mendoza, 28, died 1988
Yvonne Mesteth, 18, died 1985
Natalie Meyers, 16, died 1972
Sandra Milton, 23, died 1990
Mitsue Mohar, 31, died 1975
Ruth Montero, 23, died 1979
Denise Montoya, 15, died 1988
Beverly Moore, 15, died 1975
Sylvia Moore, 18, died 1986
Christine Mora, 18, died 1994
Maura Morales, 25, died 1981
Shelby Moran, 60, died 1999
Katherine Morse, 20, died 1970
Kelly Morse, 32, died 1992
Loretta Morton, 16, died 1984
Kathy Murphy, 17, died 1973
Dorothy Muzorewa, 25, died 1974
Guadalupe Negron, 33, died 1993
Kimberly Neil, died 2000
Germaine Newman, 14, died 1984
Sara Niebel, 15, died 1994
Maria Ortega, 23, died 1970
Joyce Ortenzio, 32, died 1988
Venus Ortiz, 29, died 1998
Linda Padfield, 28, died 1973
Mary Ann Page, 36, died 1977
Mary Paredez, 26, died 1977
Holly Patterson, 18, died 2003
Shirley Payne, 33, died 1983
Mary Pena, 43, died 1984
DaNette Pergusson, 19, died 1992
Erika Peterson, 28, died 1961
Katherine Pierce, 27, died 1989
Katrina Poole, 16, died 1988
Yvette Poteat, 26, died 1985
Vanessa Preston, 22, died 1980
Dawn Ravenell, 13, died 1985
Jacqueline Reynolds, 22, died 1986
Erica Richardson, 16, died 1989
Luz Rodriguez, 40, died 1986
Magdalena Rodriguez, 23, died 1994
Rosael Rodriguez, 21, died 1986
Adelle Roe, age 26, died 2002
Amanda Roe, 19, died 1970
Alice Roe, 31, died 1970
Amy Roe, 35, died 1971
Annie Roe, 29, died 1971
Andrea Roe, 26, died 1971
Anita Roe, 23, died 1971
April Roe, 17, died 1971
Audrey Roe, 44, died 1971
Barbara Roe, 35, died 1971
Becky Roe, 18, died 1971
Beth Roe, 35, died 1971
Betty Roe, 29, died 1974
Beverly Roe, 21, died 1978
Brenda Roe, 31, died 1974
Cherish Roe, died 2005
Christi Roe, 29, died 1972
Cindy Roe, 25, died 1972
Colleen Roe, 31, died 1972
Connie Roe, 31, died 1972
Danielle Roe, 18, died 1972
Dawn Roe, 29, died 1972
Denise Roe, 27, died 1977
Donna Roe, 18, died 1973
Dorothy Roe, 44, died 1973
Eleanor Roe, 20, died 1973
Ellen Roe #1, 22, died 1974
Ellen Roe #2, 18, died 1983
Erica Roe, 20, died 1974
Faith Roe, 21, died 1974
Faye Roe, 18, died 1979
Gail Roe, 23, died 1975
Gloria Roe, 35, died 1976
Isabel Roe, died 1981
Judy Roe, 42, died 1970
Julie Roe, 14, died 1972
Kimberly Roe, 25, died 1970
Lori Roe, 17, died 1970
Malorie Roe, 35, died 1974
Mary Roe, 19, died 1971
Melissa Roe, 27, died 1992
Molly Roe, 21, died 1975
Monica Roe, 31, died 1971
Nadine Roe, 32, died 1978
Nancy Roe, 16, died 1972
Pamela Roe, 38, died 1974
Patricia Roe, 16, died 1975
Robin Roe, 21, died 1972
Roseanne Roe, 37, died 1971
Roxanne Roe, 17, died 1972
Sandra Roe, 18, died 1971
Sara Roe, 22, died 1972
Serena Roe, 22, died 1980
Sherri Roe, 20, died 1975
Sheryl Roe, 23, died 1970
Susan Roe, 21, died 1992
Tammy Roe, 33, died 1971
Tara Roe, died 2005
Teresa Roe, 19, died 1974
Terri Roe, 43, died 1991
Vanessa Roe, 35, died 1973
Vicki Roe, 23, died 1971
Wanda Roe, died 2006
Wendy Roe, 23, died 1972
Yvonne Roe, 19, died 1999
Julia Rogers, 20, died 1973
Rhonda Rollinson, 32, died 1992
Allegra Roseberry, 41, died 1988
Sharonda Rowe, 17, died 1981
Rhonda Ruggiero, 29, died 1982
Stacy Ruckman, 23, died 1988
LaSandra Russ, 20, died 1971
Tamia Russell, 15, doed 2004
F.S., 16, died 1970
Stella Saenz, 42, died 1968
Angela Sanchez, 27, died 1993
Angela Satterfield, 23, died 1990
Carole Schaner, 37, died 1971
Angela Scott, 19, died 1979
Oriene Shevin, 34, died 2005
Gloria Small, 43, died 1978
Deloris Smith, 15, died 1979
Diane Smith, 23, died 1976
Laura Hope Smith, 22, died 2007
Margaret Smith, 24, died 1971
Teresa Smith, 31, died 1988
Laura Sorrels, 30, died 1988
Kathryn Strong, 26, died 1972
Jennifer Suddeth, 17, died 1982
Tami Suematsu, 19, died 1988
Yvonne Tanner, 22, died 1984
Michelle Thames, 18, died 1987
Ingrid Thomas, 28, died 1994
Magnolia Thomas, 36, died 1986
Hoa Thuy "Vivian" Tran, 22, died 2003
Elizabeth Tsuji, 21, died 1978
Cheryl Tubbs, 29, died 1975
Iris Valazquez, 20, died 1987
Cycloria Vangates, 32, died 1976
Veal, Latachie, 17, died 1991
Brenda Vise, 38, died 2002
Cheryl Vosseler, 17, died 1969
Gail Vroman, 20, died 1979
Pamela Wainwright, 37, died 1987
Lynette Wallace, 22, died 1975
Debra Walton, 35, died 1989
Nicey Washington, 26, died 2000
Sheila Watley, 31, died 1987
Diane Watson, 27, died 1987
Ingar Weber, 28, died 1991
Robin Wells, 27, died 1981
Chivon Williams, died 1996
Ellen Williams, 38, died 1985
Nichole Williams, 22, died 1997
Sandra Williams, 30, died 1984
Shirley Williams, 30, died 1980
Tanya Williamson, 28, died 1996
Carole Wingo, 22, died 1974
Virginia Wolfe, 33, died 1998
Darlene Wood, 23, died 1982
Gail Wright, 29, died 1986
Stacy Zallie, 20, died 2002

A topic that never seems go lose it's appeal at NAF conferences is how to cover up abortion cartel "oopsies" -- aka maternal deaths. You'd think that such paragons of concern for women as these folks claim to be would focus on medically preventing these botch jobs but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the focus has been consistently on legal ways of avoiding responsibilty for them...at least, it has been ever since Warren Hern got booed off the stage at one of these conferences for advocating responsible medicine. Heaven forbid that an abortionist should see any sort of light...but he did feel the heat, and altered his priorities accordingly. Oh, and yes, that is the same Warren Hern who admitted that he got a pseudo-electric "charge" out of the death throes of an innocent child being murdered, and the same one who, in a fit of relative honesty, said, “In medical practice, there are few surgical procedures given so little attention and so underrated in its potential hazards as. abortion. It is a commonly held view that complications are inevitable.”

(It isn't that they don't know that legal abortion is dangerous to women; but why are they so coy about letting the women know???$$$?$?$?$?)

And talking of holocausts, wasn't it Josef Mengele, aka "Dr. Death", the medical director who slaughtered tens of thousands, at least, at Auschwitz, who went on to become an abortionist in South America after the war ended, and he fled the justice of Nuremberg? Why yes, I believe it was...seems you can get the quack doctor out of the death camp, but getting the death camp out of the quack is another thing entirely.

For more correlations, comparisons, and links between abortion and the Nazi holocaust, see eugenics-watch.com, and get your facts straight...c'mon, at least just for kicks & giggles?!

Doug,

"Listen carefully. Do NOT put ze candle back..."

"It's advocating that abortion be legal. It's not really wanting abortion."

I'd have to disagree with you there. If you didn't "want" abortion you would also be helping women to not have one. You actively "want" women to be able to have one. This is effectively pro abortion.

A republican I talked to once said, "You know, I'm pro-life, but I am also anti-big government, so I don't want to make women to not have abortions. Rather safe and legal. But I'm still prolife, because I think it's wrong."

I was bewildered. I told her "effectively, you are pro-choice." And she said, "sort of." I wanted to say "uh...yes...because if you are pro life you would be against it; pro-lifers think of abortion as killing a human being, and nobody in their right mind would say better safely kill one than "forcing" someone to kill somebody unsafely (?). It doesn't make any sense to me. I will call you pro-choice if you want to, but really that makes you pro-abortion rights. Isn't that effectively the same thing. Pro-abort is short for pro-abortion rights. If we leave it at pro-life and pro-choice I'm okay with it. I'm just trying to help you understand why we sometimes refer to it as pro-abort. Some people are more "pro-abortion" than others though.

Carla,

The Shrek mac n cheese is the best. I mean they all taste the same of course..but me and Gabriella love Shrek the best. She's also a big hot dog n' beans girl. mmmmm...healthy fooooood....

Pip,

Those are some very good points you brought up..good post.

Pip,

I have to disagree with you on one thing. I don't think "pro-abort" is short for pro-abortion rights. I think it's an offensive term (as offensive as anti-choice) used to make the other side look bad, implying that they are crazy people that go out and try to talk women into having abortions.

It's not necessary to split hairs over terminology. The terms that are accepted in the abortion debate are pro-life and pro-choice, and everyone knows when using those terms it applies specifically to abortion and not anything else.

I think it's an offensive term (as offensive as anti-choice)

Why does it offend you if you support abortion..tehrefore you are in support OF abortion?

used to make the other side look bad

Sorry, but the dismemberment of babies in the womb does enough for your side looking bad..we don't really have to TRY in that arena.

Okay...gotta share. Just went down to get a gingerale and the sea monkeys are fornicating on my kitchen countertop! Either that or Johnny glued them together...sheesh, right there in front of all the other sea monkeys! Get a room already!

This is why I have grown fond on the term abortion-choice advocate. Usually the term pro-abortion changes the subject and people begin to argue over that and, like Stephanie said, it just seems to incite people. However, I do think that there is a bit of a smoke screen in the term pro-choice, because it begs the question as to whether or not such a choice should be permitted. I can call myself pro-choice all day, but if I mean the choice to rape someone or have sex with 4 year olds, then no one should have that choice. Abortion-choice advocate has both the words abortion and choice in it (for those of you who couldn't figure that out on your own), so I think it's a good term.

Lol...sea monkey porn!

Bobby,

It also implies (prochoice) that we are antichoice...as in my kids get no choice...they must always eat cheerios...We are pro-choice (about inconsequential things) too and it seems deceptive to leave out what we are choosing...

Abortion-choice advocate seems like a good compromise but it sure is long. Which means it will get shortened to ACA and then we really lose the meaning...

Of course pro life implies that the other side watnts everyone dead...so that's not really fair either...

what to do, what to do...

Erin,

I know, right. And I've spent hours preaching abstinence only to the little buggers...

"It's not necessary to split hairs over terminology. The terms that are accepted in the abortion debate are pro-life and pro-choice, and everyone knows when using those terms it applies specifically to abortion and not anything else."

I gotta agree with MK here. I don't have a problem using the same terminology. But it is hypocritical to whine about being called a pro-abort when they refer to us as "antichoice." That was my original point at least. LOL it kind of evolved from there. It's okay with me either way what the terminology is, but pro-abortion rights is just as normal as pro-gun rights and pro-gay rights. I don't mind being called pro-gay.
I guess the rub here is that each term really used is so broad it starts encompassing other things. And it really does start referring to other topic than abortion, often.
Like "if you were REALLY pro-life, you would think this." Or "if you were REALLY pro-choice, you would be okay with this." I'd just rely on the good ol' words and keep in mind they are used for convenience rather than an entire philosophy. Otherwise on the issue of homosexuals, wouldn't "anti-gays" be "pro choice?" They believe people "choose" to be gay!

I do think there are varying people within the "prochoice" camp that are truly "pro abortion" in the strict sense of the word (as opposed to the shortened pro-abortion rights). Many PP workers are like this, complaining there aren't enough movies portraying abortion as positive! Really! Or those that say "she should have had an abortion." and stuff like that. Doesn't seem "pro-choice" at all to me.

Amanda Marcotte is a vile anti-christian bigot. I went on that blog once and was banned after a couple comments. They can't handle the Truth.

Stephanie:

It appears to me that the term pro-choice is an oxymoron because it does not convey the meaning of its application. That is, being pro-choice could end up in the murder of an innocent child in the womb.

On the other hand, pro-life honestly represents the intended meaning of its application which is very simply, always life.

The term pro-choice is a dishonest term and was coined as a means of watering down its affect. I mean, who really wants to kill a a baby?

Why your side can't be honest about what pro-choice results in and in truth stand for it by calling it what it really is, i.e., pro-death, your movement is doomed to failure because the truth always wins out.

Also, if your side does call it what it really is, it surely loses. Check and mate.

I don't much care for the term "post abortive" referring to moi.

PIP:

Evolution is a failed theory and will join the ranks of the junk science dump heap years from now.

You make a huge mistake at being led away from the truth.

"The grass withers, and the flower fades, but the Word of God shall endure forever".

Now that's something to get excited about.

My Sea Monkeys did that too mk, and then they ate each other (I got a hamster and forgot to feed them). It's ok though, cause after they die you let the water evaporate and then fill it up again and the dried up scum comes back to life.

HisMan, I think I love you
:)

Carla,
I never thought about that term until you brought it up. Yes, I agree. It's not good for those who have already made ammends. (with themselves & God). Do you have something different in mind? Maybe we can use it here & it will spread across pro-life blogs throughout the world!

(I dream big)

It's hard to take too seriously moral or ethical advice from someone who believes "evolution is a failed theory."

Ok, I've drafted your response too

"It's hard to take too seriously moral or ethical advice from someone who killed two of his children."

Ok, my turn.

I didn't kill my children, we terminated a pregnancy.

Ok, you're turn.

"what were they, hamsters? Of course they were your children"

My turn.

I guess we just disagree.

your turn.

It's not a "disagreement," face the truth. Abortion kills babies and is always wrong.

My turn.

says you....

Your turn.

Says GOD.

My turn.

Ok, whatever, have a nice day. Go Obama!

yes, Hal: go far, far away Obama!

WE AGREE!!! YAY!

LOL HisMan. It's not a science issue with you it's a spiritual one. If your theology is so weak that its basis for salvation hinges on an (extremely established) scientific theory for validation, this conversation can't really go any further. Leave it between me and God, mmkay?

PIP, 1:52, excellent points.

Carla, 1:22...Aubrey is such a beautiful, beautiful name.

pip,

I agree with you..there is plenty of room for science and God in this world. I personally enjoy learning all that I can about EITHER subject. They are both very extensive and quite amazing subjects to me.

prettyinpink,
no offense, but why do you keep bringing up evolution, on a blog that talks about abortion, if you don't want to discuss it and receive alternating opinions?

or, do you?

Ooooh Anon.... you do dream big! I dunno Redeemed? Forgiven and Set Free? Hardly what you are going for!! :)
Thank you, Bethany. My children know and love Aubrey as their big sis. Along with Jamie and Lee-the two I miscarried.

"Satan tried the holocaust and while it was devastating, eventually we all came to our senses. So he stepped it up a bit...and now we have abortion."

Posted by: mk at January 30, 2008 10:42 AM

Jess,

I posted the Lord's Prayer in response to mk's post about Satan, the Holocaust and Abortion. It wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry if you thought so. And please forgive me if I was harsh on my later post. My frustration should not have been directed to you! God bless you.

If you are a pro-abort, you obviously don't know the meaning of the word "respect".
Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2008 11:14 AM
***********************************************

The PCers who post here have made the point time and again that they are not "pro-abortion," and this terminology only serves to further offend them. By ignoring their requests to adhere to conventional terminology, you are not only opening yourself up to be labeled "anti-woman" and "anti-choice" but are also displaying the disrespect that you dislike in them. Irony....

PIP:

You think you can separate science and theology? Who do you think created science?

No this is about truth.

Evolution is a lie and I am simply warning you of that.

"no offense, but why do you keep bringing up evolution, on a blog that talks about abortion, if you don't want to discuss it and receive alternating opinions?"

Nah, I was just excited about my class and I had to express it. If someone doesn't want to discuss it rationally I would rather not discuss(/debate) it at all, but if someone honestly wants to know more about it or exchange some ideas I am glad to discuss it. We had a fun discussion a few months ago that was fun. If you have a problem with random topics coming up just say so and I will refrain from saying anything off topic from now on.

Btw, I am not trying to censor HisMan, I just know the conversation will be fruitless, often many conversations with him are. No offense HisMan, I just know you are very opinionated and won't listen to this scientific insight, and I will not try to change your beliefs. I see no point in discussing it further with you. I hope no hard feelings.

HisMan,

I simply think there is room for both. Thanks for the warning. I'll answer to the man upstairs..if my understanding of evolution send me to hell, well, I'll see many Christians there.

SamanthaT,

Ok, I see where you are coming from.

I'll make you a deal.

When your side stops condoning the killing of babies in the womb, I will stop calling you pro-aborts.

I promise.

"Oh, for all babies to feel all warm and cozy in their safe little wombs....as God intended."
Posted by: Carla at January 30, 2008 12:23 PM

I don't get this. I know it's a personal problem, but why does an omnipotent,omniscient god make babies -- 50 million of them -- just so they can be ripped apart? And furthermore, what exactly is the point in worshiping someone like that?

*****************************************

"Evolution is a failed theory and will join the ranks of the junk science dump heap years from now."
Posted by: HisMan at January 30, 2008 3:33 PM

Evolution is a proven theory. Read "The Beak of the Finch" by Weiner. You are very intelligent and have an immense faith; surely you do not doubt that God has the ability to utilize a mechanism so simple as evolution? How do you think nature ended up with so much variety? I think you are selling Him short.

Anonymous, 4:28 p.m.

LOL!!!

Couldn't agree more.

pip,

I think there is room for both science and God. Evolution and Creation. Like I've said, I have no problem with you talking about them...I do however think they should obviously be kept separate. My bio teacher said, if you want to learn about the religious teaching about the beginning of the world, take a theology class, if you want to learn the SCIENTIFIC viewpoint, take a science class. He was a stickler but I liked him. His view on it made sense to me.

Samantha T: I don't get this. I know it's a personal problem, but why does an omnipotent,omniscient god make babies -- 50 million of them -- just so they can be ripped apart? And furthermore, what exactly is the point in worshiping someone like that?

Samantha,

I would attemp to answer this if it were a serious question, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even a monkey to figure out that it is just a feeble attempt to get Christians riled up. Nice try.

"no offense, but why do you keep bringing up evolution, on a blog that talks about abortion, if you don't want to discuss it and receive alternating opinions?"
Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2008 4:06 PM
************************************************

Huh?

And evolution describes the mechanism of change that occurs over time in the behavior and physiology of animals. I'd say evolution is a pretty pertinent topic in the abortion realm, because you don't read about Eve and Sarah and Leah aborting their pregnancies. Just a thought.

"He was a stickler but I liked him. His view on it made sense to me."
I agree with him! :)

They are separate subjects, theology should never be inserted into science curriculum. But I don't think science and religion inherently contradict each other, either.

Have you ever seen Kenneth Miller speak? YOU SHOULD. He's wonderful. A key witness in the Dover trials (and writer of my high school textbook) and a Roman Catholic. He has good insights.

"I would attemp to answer this if it were a serious question, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even a monkey to figure out that it is just a feeble attempt to get Christians riled up. Nice try."
Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2008 4:39 PM

I'm sorry you were offended. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is a pretty big stumbling block for someone whose spiritual health you are completely unfamiliar with. Perhaps you could just overlook the question, then, and maybe Bethany or Valerie or Mr. Bambino could help me understand? I'm sure they won't be "riled up."

PIP:

I didn't say you or anyone else was going to hell because they believed in evolution.

However, believing any lie, as believing that it's a choice and not a baby, will ultimately prevent one from living the best life possible.

Besides, believing any lie opens the door to believing more lies and why wouldn't I want to protect anyone from that?

If I didn't care, I wouldn't speak.

I want my life and those of who I love to be saturated in truth.

Perhaps God is allowing you to learn about the theory of evolution so you can debunk it later in life.

Samantha,
No, it was a dig at Carla's beautiful comment.

You didn't rile me up or offend me at all.
When I was younger I used to be pretty manipulative myself. As I grew up, I grew out of it and I was able to spot it rather quickly in others. It's quite a gift!

If Bethany, Valerie or Mr. Bambino help you out with this one, I will very much look forward to the responses that you give them. I hope you can prove me wrong and pray that you will take heed in what they will tell you.

"The PCers who post here have made the point time and again that they are not "pro-abortion," and this terminology only serves to further offend them."

tough.

"Perhaps you could just overlook the question, then, and maybe Bethany or Valerie or Mr. Bambino could help me understand? "

Sure Samantha. I read your question as quoted by anonymous, but I don't know if there was a bigger context to the question. But the traditional Christian understanding is given in the doctrine of free will. God gave us the ability to choose right and wrong. So why would he do this? As the bible says (Isiah 51??), God's ways are so far above our ways, in a sense that we cannot even begin to comprehend. But it seems as if he allows evil and suffering in our world to bring about a greater good.

When can clearly see that this is his method of accomplishing things through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is simultaneously the greatest good and the greatest evil the world has ever known. The greatest evil: deicide, human beings killing their creator, killing God. The greatest good: redemption and the offer of divine adoption into God's family, a share in the divine sonship of Jesus Christ.

So abortion, the holocaust, Katrina, cancer, all these need to be understood in terms of God's divine plan and his permissive will. God love you.

SamanthaT:

Then why has not one, here me, not one species transition fossil ever been found?

What evolutionists miss or altorgether ignore is genetic mutation is specific to species. I.e, if you brreed more dogs with short snouts with a lesser number of dogs with long snouts, statistically you eventually get a dog that looks like a pug. But from the same breeding cycle you'll never, ever get a cat.

Evolution is a loser becasue it denies the creative genius of the Creator. It's actually a religion because it not based on science it's based on faith.

That's the rub, HisMan, I am studying it and have in the past read several books on this subject. I do not see any lie there, only one of the most well-supported theories in the scientific realm. Fascinating!

It should be said if evolution were to be "debunked" with proper evidence, it should only be more fascinating. Science at its finest.

"Then why has not one, here me, not one species transition fossil ever been found?"

Check out whale evolution, Thewissen et al 2002.

Over 24 transitional forms have been found.

note* over 24 transitional forms of whales have been found.

hundreds of others have been found for other species.

But I don't think science and religion inherently contradict each other, either.

Neither do I and I agree they should be separate subjects when taught in schools depending on the cirriculum. Obviously not many public high schools offer theology classes so the students will just have to wait until college to voluntarily take those courses.

The finch argument is a non sequitar.

Finches on the Galapogos Islands interbreed all the time.

"But from the same breeding cycle you'll never, ever get a cat."

whoa. If that ever happened evolution theory as we know it WOULD be debunked.

"students will just have to wait until college to voluntarily take those courses."

Or go to a religious college and be required to take these courses :)

On that vein Elizabeth I think we could have theology and philosophy classes in high school. Maybe that can help kids be more stimulated intellectually!

PIP:

Bingo. Examine your OWN words for goodness sake!

Transitions are found within the same species.

There is no evidence that a whale ever became a monkey or a shark or a doo-dah. Ask your professor.

Evolution thoerizes that life came from nothing and developed into single cell life forms which eventually ended up being cats, and dogs, and fish, and well, people, no?

It would take the denial every bit of common sense that I possess to believe that hog wash.

No, evolution is an attempt by its adherents to kill or annilate God if, just as a concept, as the act of abortion is or....to make oneself feel unaccountable to a God. You would do yourself wise not to follow such fools.

Samantha T: I don't get this. I know it's a personal problem, but why does an omnipotent,omniscient god make babies -- 50 million of them -- just so they can be ripped apart? And furthermore, what exactly is the point in worshiping someone like that?

Samantha, I haven't read to see if anyone has answered your question yet, but my views on it are that God created us for eternity, not just for 70-100 years on this earth. Every single one of us eventually dies. Each of us has an appointed time of death. In Psalms, David says, "So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom."
There is a purpose for each and every one of us on this earth, and even though we do not understand it, it is true. There was a reason that my babies died through miscarriage even though I wanted them so badly. I know that, with certainty. God created them for a specific purpose, and I may not know that purpose on this side of Heaven. All I can do is trust that God meant what He said when He said that "“To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”"

And Bobby answered the free will aspect I see...I was going to get to that but I think he did a good job. :)

"Transitions are found within the same species."
These transitional forms are from other mammals to whales. Isn't that the whole point of that post. You asked about transitional forms. Some of these forms had legs, which is why the baleen whale has a vestigial hipbone.

"There is no evidence that a whale ever became a monkey or a shark or a doo-dah. Ask your professor."
LOL aren't strawmans fun?

"Evolution thoerizes that life came from nothing and developed into single cell life forms which eventually ended up being cats, and dogs, and fish, and well, people, no?"
Evolution does not say such a thing. Evolution does not really deal with how the first life form came to be (though it didn't come from "nothing"). Other fields of study do deal with it though. Best not confuse them.

"It would take the denial every bit of common sense that I possess to believe that hog wash."
Or lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

"No, evolution is an attempt by its adherents to kill or annilate God"

Well at least 80% of scientists are theists so..your argument on this level does not stand.

PIP, in your opinion, since we are created in God's image, do you think God evolves?

Jess,

THere's a lesson in everything...

It's ok though, cause after they die you let the water evaporate and then fill it up again and the dried up scum comes back to life.

Okay, so there is "scum" on the bottom...add water, you have life.

How many people say those were sea monkeys all along and how many think they were just so much garbage.

Not comparing babies to sea monkeys, but since there is no womb and all that's needed is water, at what point to they actually become sea monkeys?

btw how are you supposed to "kill" God?

You do realize that the Nazis agreed with you about abortion and birth control, right?

Hal at 3:47

*Belly Laugh*

Bethany,

God's image. I don't think God is a physical being but a spiritual one. "Image" refers to spirit. We are the only creature with an immortal soul.

God is not subject to his own natural laws, I don't believe. So I don't know why he would evolve. I think he is the one that made evolution happen, which speaks volumes for his amazing work.

PIP, the Bible says we are created in His image and His likeness.

Bethany,

I think the Bible can be poetic. So I don't think that God is an old man with a white beard. I believe with image and likeness it refers to our conscious, our soul, our willingness to be like Him in a spiritual sense.

This is just my opinion, though...

mk,
oooh I like the sea monkey analogy. Who would have thought????
btw, LOL on your 2:29 PM post. It really cracked me up!

PIP, "We are the only creature with an immortal soul."

EXACTLY!!!

Take that, you soul-less apes!!!

And the words image and likeness in that context are derived from the same Hebrew words which are used in this verse:

Gen 5:3 And Adam 0121 lived 02421 an hundred 03967 and thirty 07970 years 08141, and begat 03205 [a son] in his own likeness 01823, after his image 06754; and called 07121 his name 08034 Seth 08352:

image: 1) image

a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)

b) image, likeness (of resemblance)

c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

likeness:
n f

1) likeness, similitude

adv

2) in the likeness of, like as

Samantha,

The answer to that question is one word. The word we are all discussing right now. Choice.

Story:

A man is at the barber shop and he and the barber are discussing everything from navel lint to baseball. Eventually, they get around to God.

The barber says he doesn't believe in God. Says he can prove it. He says "What kind of a God would let people suffer? War, Death, Illness, Insanity, hatred...No, if there was a God none of these would exist"

The guy in the chair is stumped. He knows the barber is wrong, but can't think of how to prove it. He leaves.

2 blocks away he sees a rather scraggly homeless man, desperately in need of a shave and a shower.

He goes back to the barber. Tells him he doesn't believe that barbers exist.

The barber laughs and says "Of course we exist. I'm right here in front of you"

The guy say "Nope. I just saw a guy that needed a shave and haircut. What kind of a barber would let people walk around needing haircuts? I conclude from this evidence that barbers don't exist."

Ridiculous says the barber. I'm here, right here waiting. If the guy wants a haircut all he has to do is come to the shop...I'm waiting.

Hah, says the guy. That's exactly what God says.

"PIP, "We are the only creature with an immortal soul."

EXACTLY!!!

Take that, you soul-less apes!!!"

LOL. Why don't you give yourself a name, Anonymous? Janet did, and I'm really glad she did. The word "Anonymous" isn't a function!

oh, wait...I'm sorry PIP. re: my 5:42 comment:
We evolved from apes, but we are the only creatures (per you) with an immortal soul. Now, when something cannot evolve from nothing, tell me: exactly where did that come from?

hmmmmmmmmmmm

"EXACTLY!!!"
LOL anon. I think that God created our souls. Souls cannot evolve.

"b) image, likeness (of resemblance)"
Why can't our spirit resemble that of God? He created it.

Bobby,
Maybe I'll give myself a name at another time. For now, I'm kindof enjoying being the "anonymous poster". It truly is fun!

Souls are not a part of biological science, either. You can't test a soul. We don't have a soul-o-meter or have physical evidence it exists.

I will be back around 9, gots the campus kitchen!

But see, I'm not sure if you're the same Anonymous that I was talking to about the Orthodox yesterday in the weekend question post...

in the whole Catholic debate thingy, that is.

PIP,
Soul or spirit?

Bobby,
Just curious, but why would that matter?

Er...I treat them as somewhat synonymous. Our soul and spirituality are distinctly human, although at this point in our conversation we are talking about theology where it just comes down to my personal beliefs.

I really gotta go. I'll be back after I help feed the homeless :)

I just like to get to know the people on here, where they are coming from, their beliefs, etc.

Sorry to bring this post up (AGAIN)late in the thread, but I wanted to weigh in on this with you Hal.
True. We will probably never ever agree on when life begins or the right to abort. It is impossible for us to understand your arguments for abortion. So let's set those issues aside.

Our side is not just about the "abortion is murder" argument. We bring up other issues surrounding this issue every day. Just to name a few: the illegalities and injustices and malpractice and abortion related deaths, and illegal late term abortions,and unsanitary abortion clinic conditions, and statutory rape cov