Recall that Dominick's/Safeway erected a now illegal temporary fence on its vacant lot across from Planned Parenthood after PP complained. (The fence is now illegal because its temporary permit expired a couple of weeks ago.)

Well, Mary Lu at the Families Against Planned Parenthood blog posted a photo on Christmas morning of an empty manger spotted inside the fence (click to enlarge):

That's the PP mill in the background. The roof of the manger was a two-sided sign....

Commenter Jerry K. reported the sign stated on one side:

PP
X-Mas
No Christ

And on the other:

PP SAYS
✔young
✔poor
✔shunned
ABORT CHRIST

By December 26 the empty manger had been removed. It was up for the most important day, however.

[HT: Pete]

Is trespassing and leaving a pile of trash on someone else's private property any different than spray-painting a church?

Vandalism is vandalism.

Those a-holes are on the same level as these losers: http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/01/01/drunk-teenagers-trash-robert-frost-historic-site/

Mwahahahaha!!!

Laura: at the risk of stating the obvious: yes, there's quite a difference between spray painting a church and leaving a display behind an illegal fence.

I saw that! It was really cool.

Wow, someone managed to get that all together and set up inside the fence undetected?

Heh-LAIR-EE-us!!

And I love the clever checklist!!

No trespassing means no traspassing. Whoever did this broke the law, and I don't condone it whatsoever, no matter what the reason is.

In addition, the sign makes no sense on either of its sides to me.

and yes, I'm a tad bitchy today!

ABL, now, now. The sign means that Jesus fit all the qualifications of being aborted, according to PP. And "X-Mas" is sans "Christ."

PS - I must add I've noticed the b-word popping up here lately and prefer it wouldn't... :)

Jill,
sorry about the b-word...I promise not to use it again.

As far as the sign, I see where that CAN make sense, but I don't ever remember PP saying that they would have had Christ aborted. The mere thought of anyone putting those words into someone's mouth (even if it is PP) disgusts me.

Laura: at the risk of stating the obvious: yes, there's quite a difference between spray painting a church and leaving a display behind an illegal fence.

Posted by: Nathan Will Sheets at January 2, 2008 2:17 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's no difference.
If you couldn't be taught to respect other people's property by the time you were 3, I'll have to assume the toilet training didn't work as well...

Was THIS hilarious?
I thought it was dispicable:
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/04/prolife_display_1.php

ABL - no worries. I don't think the sign maker was saying that PP advocated aborting Jesus. S/he was just making the point that Jesus fit PP's qualifications. Plus His mother was extremely young (about 15) and unmarried when she became pregnant.

I don't understand...were Joseph, Mary and Jesus trespassing when he was born in the manger?
:-)

Wow AB...you are off your feed today!! Hope you're feeling your old spunky self soon!!

OK, OK...I know what you need--a good joke...let's see....since I'm blonde and love blonde jokes, this one seems germane:

Why did the blonde scale the chain-link fence?

To see what was on the other side.

*collective groan!*

Which just goes to show that even when I'm ignoring her I can get Laura to bite.

Vandalism is vandalism....yep. That includes the PC idiots who wrote MY BODY, MY CHOICE on the church with spray paint.

I guess it's okay to commit crimes as long as you're PC. Kidnapping your daughter to take her for a forced abortion, murdering kids, vandalism, pedophilia. *sigh* Anything goes.

Hooves,
LOL! Not in the mood for SSFRL or anything, but that was pretty funny! Thanks :)

I still think that it's sacrilegious and shouldn't be equated if even to make a point, no matter how small or big the point...EVER!

Laura needs our attention.

Ab Laura,

I really don't see why you're in such a huff about it or so it seems (can't really tell because it's the computer). It's a comparison..nothing more, nothing less. It gets the point across I think.

Vandalism is vandalism....yep. That includes the PC idiots who wrote MY BODY, MY CHOICE on the church with spray paint.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 3:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, we've covered this.
The cretins who set up this display are just like the losers who wrote on the church, and the drunks who destroyed the Robert Frost home.
They deserve jail time.

oh, okay.

Elizabeth,
I just don't agree with using Jesus in any way, shape or form to make this type of point. Especially trespassing (breaking the law) to do it! I think it shows poor taste on many levels. (my 2:29 post explains my "huff")

Any news coverage on that horrible protest that was one on Christmas day?

ABL—

So what you meant to say is that you are feeling:

Canis lupus familiaris; female-y

Or, in blog-speak: CLFFY

;)

BTW--I see your point about blasphemy...I guess I didn’t equate it since Jesus wasn’t in the manger….

Hooves,
It was the wording on the sign...not the lack of Jesus being in the manger (although I do get the meaning behind that, also!)

I guess it's okay to commit crimes as long as you're PC. Kidnapping your daughter to take her for a forced abortion, murdering kids, vandalism, pedophilia. *sigh* Anything goes.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 3:14 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heather, you'll notice that the people who do those kinds of things have been arrested, tried and convicted.
No, anything DOESN'T go...

Hey, no worries my friend….everyone has different thresholds and this clearly crossed one of yours. Just like Jill’s equation of the chain-link fence to Auschwitz did for me way back when…

just googled the
"Canis lupus familiaris; female-y"

Love it!!!! (took me a few times though - had to delet the female-y part!)

So, I guess not only am I a "CLFFY" today, but also a "DA"

:/

Theresa aka Hooves, I'm so glad you reconsidered!

Well, Safeway is also breaking the law by even having that fence up since their permit for it expired a couple of weeks ago. Isn't anyone a little peeved about THAT?

Thanks Heather ;)

Elizabeth...that would make a straight line between two points. They cannot abide by that...you know that!

Hmmmm ABL…..sounds like you need to go straight to the couch, wrap yourself in a blanket and consume mass quantities of chocolate while watching something sappy on tv.

Oh, wait a minute. My bad…you are PL. You are already on the couch wrapped in a blanket, scorfing chocolate and watching movies.

Hmmm…I’ll have to think of something else.

Well, Safeway is also breaking the law by even having that fence up since their permit for it expired a couple of weeks ago. Isn't anyone a little peeved about THAT?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 2, 2008 3:34 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're upset that somebody protected their private property from criminals?
If those freaks had respected the law, that fence NEVER would have gone up. Given the latest events, nobody would make them take the fence down.

Funny…

Whenever Laura goes on a tangent I start pining for my muzzle collection from my previous life as a pet stylist.

I wonder why that is….

Did someone say blankets? It's freezing here.

Heather: what part of the USA is "here"?

I think the fence company and the grocery should be fined for the illegal fence. Why are they allowed to keep up a fence in defliance of the city and the people it represents?

I notice how selective some are in criticizing only the actions of prolife folks.

HIPPIE'S BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're upset that somebody protected their private property from criminals?
If those freaks had respected the law, that fence NEVER would have gone up. Given the latest events, nobody would make them take the fence down.

Oh Laura, the dramatics are abundant today aren't they? You really should be in theatre..I imagine you would be quite successful.

Maybe that’s her problem…she’s a frustrated actress posing as a dog catcher.

National rent a fence

1 800 352 5675

We should ring them up and remind them the permit has expired.

Oh yeah, it's just like the PC side bringing up Paul Hill. They have more "Paul Hills" than you could shake a stick at, but all of their seedy and slimy activities are protected by the word "legal."

Ohio!

Hooves 3:31pm,
oooooooooooohhhhhh..I remember that. Yeah, it's kindof the same "struck a nerve" thing!

Elizabeth,
yes, I am peeved at that the fence is still up...I'm also peeved that PP is still up!!! Everything about PP & the way Aurora has dealt with it peeves me to no end!!!

As a former Cornhusker I will now say the "winter pledge":

BBBBRRRRRRRRR!

Case in point: Paul Hill killed an abortionist. Abortionists collectively kill 1.3 million babies annually.

The name, "Baby Liberation Army" makes me think of someone in a big field, running around and just dropping babies here and there.

*pokes stick at the beehive* Okay, I'm waiting for the stings.

Hooves said, "Oh, wait a minute. My bad…you are PL. You are already on the couch wrapped in a blanket, scorfing chocolate and watching movies."

a ripped up, tattered blanket & Palmer chocolates (you know, the foil-wrapped santa coins) watching my favorite movies on BETA!

anon was me....

Careful ABL...we'll have to change your name to Peeves!

a ripped up, tattered blanket & Palmer chocolates (you know, the foil-wrapped santa coins) watching my favorite movies on BETA!

My Turn: ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

I support Jill on this one. The message of the sign is that PP's criteria for abortion includes
- too young
- too poor
- marginalized (shunned)
If Mary had followed this logic look what the world would have lost? And by the same token, we don't know what the world is losing through the millions of abortions every year. Maybe the cure for AIDS, for Ebola, the discovery of a new fuel in the future. But we will never know will we? The possibilities are endless.... Choice has consequences and they are not always good.

Hooves,

I like it!!! (maybe not tomorrow, though...but I will definately think about it!!!)

Patricia:

Ditto

Patricia,
I thought PP didn't care who it was coming in for an abortion...they just want to kill as many as they can for $$$!

It's very sad to think about all of the wonderful people we have lost to abortion and what their talents would have amounted to. Sad...very sad!

ABL...

You are obviously out of sorts today. I wouldn’t do this for just anybody, but I am going to “loan” you my g’miball George for the afternoon. He’s quiet and thoughtful and his mere presence will lift your spirits.

And he passes neatly through cyberspace, so here you go:

*pop*

Just make sure he’s home before 11pm. OK?

:)

**putting ice pack on head after g'miball catapults through monitor**

GEORGE!!!! You've lent me GEORGE!!!! You DO love me!!!! Thanks, Hooves...I promise to take great care of him!!!

AB Laura,
I think PP likely targets potential clients. Who are the most likely to abort? Poor, immigrants, illegals. When I did sidewalk counselling years ago, many walking in for appointments were live-in housekeepers impregnated by the man of the family, hoping to disguise the outcome of extra-marital sex. Many were in the country (Canada) illegally, with no health insurance coverage, little money and no family. Others were young teenagers, often Catholic, walking in, in their school uniforms. Some were prostitutes (those marginalized women), homeless etc. While abortion has become more mainstream today, many women will say the couldn't afford the baby, were too young etc.

Ooops, sorry ABL, I didn't know he'd pick up so much speed on the way! Hope he does your spirits good!

*wink*

I need to go all...

I'll check in later!

Patricia,
Wow! I never thought about live-in housekeepers. How terribly sad! The whole thing is just sad to me. I really hate PP!

Patricia, that is amazing. Most of the women I know/knew who aborted, honestly never even had a good reason for having the abortion. No hard luck stories here. They just didn't want to be burdened, and every last one of them could have afforded kids. Most of them already HAD a kid or 2.

Also, a great majority of them were educated.

One "friend" was having a fling with a guy. She was rebounding from her break up with someone else. She were having sex every day, and she told me that she allowed him to ejaculate in her every time because "it felt good." BINGO! Pregnant that very month! Without hesitation she exclaimed "I'm getting an abortion." Baby gone. Guy gone. She could have cared less.

oops *should say she was*

Yes, remember Our Heavenly Mother Mary was ...

YOUNG (15 YEARS OLD)
UNMARRIED
POOR
HOMELESS

Yet, she choose LIFE (God's Will). What a lesson to Planned Parenthood and all of us!

Mike

However, my cowardly girlfriend chose Versed for her abortion. She wasn't goning to subject herself to any unnecessary discomfort.

AAAK, typos *meant GOING* Nope. She didn't want to hear that annoying suction machine.

Mike,

With all respect to your religious beliefs, Joseph and Mary were not homeless. This is a popular misconception. In modern terms, they did not make a reservation ahead of time for a room at an inn, all of which were filled when Joseph and Mary arrived, and had to resort to a manger. Something like the hotel manager who takes pity on a stranded motorist and let's him sleep on a spare couch in an unused room.
Joseph was employed as a carpenter, they had a home, and while Mary conceived before she was married, she and Joseph were a married couple when Christ was born. By the standards of their day they may not have been poor, but more working class. Also, though Mary was quite young by our standards, this was the age when young women married and began bearing children in that time and culture.

Mary and Mike, Happy New Year!

Mike,

My oversight. Mary was indeed pregnant prior to her marriage to Joseph and faced considerable social stigma and rejection, but willingly continued with her pregnancy.

Heather,

Thank you. Happy New Year to you and yours as well. Happy New Year to everyone on this blog.

...not to mention that the whole event, from beginning to "end" was divinely inspired by God! I don't think abortion would have ever been an option, or God would have chosen someone else! The prophesy had to be fulfilled!

Happy New Year, Mary!

AB Laura,

Thank you. Happy New Year to you and yours.

Many of the live-ins were Filipino women and Catholic too. It was very sad. It was almost impossible to get them to reconsider abortion. They were in a terrible bind and terribly afraid. Of course, the men knew their marriages were gonzo if the wife found out and then they'd have a child to pay support for as well. I don't think many realize how strong the pressure to abort can be for many women, even married women. Research is beginning to prove this out.

Mary was not young by the standards of the day. Most young women were popping out babies by then, often to men exponentially older than they were.

maybe there were just telling you a sob story so you'd leave them alone.

No Hal,
They came OUT of the abortion clinic SOBbing. Even the ones who had gone in screaming their heads off at us, swearing and so forth. Many of us helped these women into their cars, because they were SO distraught and were in so much physical pain. (Interestingly, the men were usually emotionally distance and unattentive to their women) Some of us tried to intercede for women who left the clinic, by going to apartments and homes to offer valid material and emotional help, only to see the woman literally forced back to the abortuary a second time - this time to make sure the dirty deed was in fact accomplished. It was truly heart-rending. In my experience, the only way to prevent the abortion at this stage was to convince the woman to physically remove herself from the proabort environment.

And Hal, that bastion and poster child of sensitivity…

Chimes in.

"Dominick's/Safeway" ?

I don't think they even have these in the Boston area, however I will no shop at one of these. stupid fence.

Jasper's in Boston?!

Oh please, oh please...

Say, "He paaaked the caaaa in the yaaaad!!"

For me?!

Erin,

Very true. We tend to judge by our standards of today and are shocked at Mary's young age, though of course in her time this was the norm. They would often be married off to "older" men(possibly in their 30s), who may have been in a position to better provide for a wife and family. Marriages were arranged for various reasons, none of them romantic. I would think the short life spans of that era were another factor, as well as the high infant mortality rate. A woman couldn't risk waiting until she was in her twenties or thirties since it wasn't likely she would still be alive, she was after all approaching "old age", or able to bear many children. I wonder if many of these "old mothers", like John the Baptist's mother, Elizabeth, were women in their late 30s or early 40s who had finally become pregnant.

Oh, and I got my steno machine today! It's so nifty...I can already write cat. And 'said'. And most words that rhyme with cat or hill. Whoo!

But can you do words that rhyme with "said" yet?!

Mary- exactly right. Men were also in a somewhat different position- if a woman didn't produce male heirs, the wife was often cast aside. Death during childbirth was also common. Many men of the era married several times, but always to very young ladies. Pretty much a woman got her period, then was married off.

Hooves- nope, because 'said' is a mandatory, or a word that is used so often that you memorize a particular keystroke. 'said' is DZ.

Weird, right?

"Say, "He paaaked the caaaa in the yaaaad!!"

For me?!"

LOL hooves, yes I suffer from that a little.

Hal, were you the one on that abortionist's table with your legs splayed opened? Were you the one who actually had sharp instruments inserted into your body to tear your baby apart, and then have it suctioned out in pieces? You said that the doctor wouldn't even allow you into the procedure room. Gee, I wonder why. He wanted to spare you the gore. Yet you stood by as your wife actually went through with it. *blah!* What kind of a beast are you?

Then you have the audacity to tell us what a wonderful thing abortion is. Why? Did the 2 abortions save you some money?

Hal, why didn't you do something to prevent it? Why didn't you do your part as a man? You could have had a vasectomy. You could have told your wife that you weren't wanting to "chance it" and refrain from sexual activity. What precautions did you take? It happened twice, Hal.

Hal, how dare you come here and say that abortion is good for women? Women are dying in America's abortion clinics TODAY. You wouldn't know or care, because your wife's abortions were uneventful, but how about women who experience complications. That includes sterilization and death. SELFISH!

Heather,

You raise a valid point about men taking responsibility for birth control as well. Why is it the woman who is considered "stupid enough" to "get herself" in this situation. Oh, she conceived by herself? She should have been more careful, its never he should have kept his pants zipped.

Mary, you are so right. Abortion gives men an easy way out. As Jill told Zoe, 90% of relationships END after an abortion.

Hal may be married, but he denies that he and his wife discuss the abortions anymore. I really find that hard to believe. How do you ever forget?

"What kind of a beast are you?"

the kind that doesn't see anything wrong with a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy.

Maybe because his wife feels is so guilt-ridden by having two of her children dismembered? I don't know..just a thought!

That's the worst kind I can imagine.

You know, Heather, if you don't talk about things that happened in the past, they magically go away....poof!

Heather,

You may be too young to remember, but I can recall that when Ronald Reagan became president, the media went nuts trying to show all the poverty that was occuring because of Reagan and his policies. Our local paper was no exception. We got this sob story about a young single mother and her hardships. Of course Ronald Reagan was responsible.
I had one question. WHERE is this child's father and why is no one hold HIM accountable for the poverty this young woman and THEIR child are living in? Never once was the father mentioned, much less held responsible for much of anything except having his fun and walking away from his responsibilities.
Too many men think their obligation to a woman pregnant with their child begins and ends with an offer to pay for an abortion.

"How do you ever forget?"

Not everyone is traumatized by the experience. What's there to talk about 10 years later? It was the right choice, no regrets, no further discussions.

No, Hal, you had your children dismembered...

my children are doing just fine. Strong, smart, and beautiful.

and pro-choice too!

Hal,
Drawing up that family tree must be great fun for you guys!!!

hmmmmmm....how many grandchildren won't you have?

Mary thank you for the informative post. It's like the signs these women hold up today BUSH: KEEP YOUR LAWS OUT OF MINE. Excuse me? Abortion has been legal, so what's their beef with our president? How about this one, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF OF MY VAGINA.........who toughed your vagina, girl? Did you file a police report? Did George Bush touch your vagina? *head spins*

Hal,
Do your living children know that you & your wife slaughtered their siblings?

There was a girl at the "Women's March For Life" wearing that T-shirt. Now, is that directed at the man who impregnated her? Who is she directing that statement to?

*oops, meant touched* above post

Here's a classic. There was a guy at the March for Women's Lives wearing a shirt that said "BABY KILLER" He wore it with pride, and he also donned a purple mohawk and numerous neck chains. Why was his participation allowed? I thought it wasn't a baby. I guess it's whatever they want it to be. *head spins again*

fat-finger syndrome today, Heather?
(happens to me all the time!)
:)

AB Laura, I don't think so. I haven't told them. Think I should?

and how many grandchildren won't I have? I really don't care about that. My girls will have children one day, or not. Their bodies, their choice. Plus, I'm in no hurry to be a grandfather.

Hal,
Come on, you're all about choice...it's your choice whether or not to tell them!

**mouse runs from cheese & doesn't get trapped**

Hal, you are going to tell your girls to be pro choice, but you don't think you should explain what that means? Why not tell them about the abortions? You aren't ashamed, are you?

I find it unbelievable that you, Hal and your wife had 2? abortions. How terribly sad. I also believe if you feel no guilt or remorse over this, then you have a poorly developed conscience and little understanding of what you've done. I'm hoping that's your excuse.
What kind of marriage do you have? That you would refuse the gift of fatherhood that your wife gave you, that you would repudiate her femininity? that she would deny your gift of motherhood? And what do/will your children think? (wow, thank god it wasn't me they killed?)
I do believe you will meet these children in the next life and they won't be blobs of tissue. They will be real souls who will ask you and their MOTHER, WHY?

AB, yes. LOL!

Heather, 6:38PM

Just think of all the responsibility he was able to walk away from, it maybe cost him only a few hundred dollars here and there.

I never told my girls to be pro-choice. they reached that position on their own. I think they know what it means.

Hal, you think they know what it means? *coughing*

Hal,
We can post some pictures for them so they WILL know what "choice" is?????

Mary, I guess a few hundred dollars for extermination was the best choice for him.

How can I meet them in the "next life." If you're right, they're in Heaven and I'm headed to Hell.

Don't sounds so shocked Patricia, millions of Americans have abortions every year. Most are doing just fine and feeling no remorse.

I don't ask my mother if she aborted any of my siblings? If she did, I wouldn't think, "wow, thank God it wasn't me they killed." I would assume she had good reasons for what she did and I'd love her just the same.

AB, Hal can't even stomach the pictures or videos. I wonder how he could ever expect his daughters to view such things.

**taking Sally's heating pad away & giving it to Hal to place on his chest to defrost his ice, cold heart!**

(sorry, Sally...)

Don't sounds so shocked Patricia, millions of Americans have abortions every year. Most are doing just fine and feeling no remorse.

------------------------------------------------------------- That's not true.

Heather,
I think Hal was speaking about the aborted babies that are in Heaven doing just fine & feeling no pain....

Hal, PAS does exist! I can see it in the post abortive women that I know personally. Drinking, drugs, codependency and extreme neediness, psychiatric visits for depression and anxiety, promiscuity, eating disorders.

A woman may not come out and say "I'm upset over my abortion." No,no,no. They want to bury it. They want to forget it, Hal. The pain will show through behaviors. Some women eventually DO realize that their abortion eats at their souls like a cancer. However, that can take years. They may not know what the REAL problem is. Abortion is an assalt on a woman's mind, body, and soul. Hal, abortion is wrong, and you just can't keep running from that fact!

they may not know what the REAL problem is, but you do?

Forgive me if I find that a bit hard to swallow.

Women are not idiots, and I think if a woman thinks she is fine after having terminated a pregnancy, we should accept that answer unless proven wrong.

You say "abortion is wrong." Others disagree, don't you get that? Abortion is wrong for you, fine. But that doesn't make it objectively wrong.
Even if you say it 1000 times.

AB, you're right!:] Hal, you and your wife don't talk about it, because that would mean digging up pain. Do it anyway. There is forgiveness for both of you, but you must seek it. The first step in doing so is to admit that abortion is wrong.

Is it also the last step?

Women are not idiots. I agree. That's why they eventually realize that abortion is bad.

yes.

some do, some don't

There are a lot of pro choice older women out there.

Why is my girlfriend pregnant again just 4 months after her abortion? She's keeping it! Nothing in her life has changed whatsoever. I think it's a replacement baby.

4 months ago the story was "I have a bad relationship with my s/o." "I don't have any money." "I would never bring another kid into this world."......Now, she's ecstatic.

Heather, I have no idea. Was your question directed at me? Ask her.

yes. There are a lot of older PC women out there. Linda Ellebee [sp?] is PC, and she also had an illegal abortion. She had to have a double mastectomy d/t breast cancer. Did you know that? Nope. No link between abortion and breast cancer.

Another lie of the abortion industry.

Hal, PAS does exist! I can see it in the post abortive women that I know personally. Drinking, drugs, codependency and extreme neediness, psychiatric visits for depression and anxiety, promiscuity, eating disorders.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 6:56 PM
..............................

You see what you wish to see heather.

Well, web site after web site supports my claim.

Hal, women who become pregnant shortly after abortion are usually wanting to replace the aborted child. That's another story, but I guess it's true. She' the second girl I've known to do this. The other girl waited 6 months. Both say that their abortions were a mistake.

I'd also venture to say that my girlfriend may still be in some denial, but she sure did tell me that she felt "horrible" about her abortion. Her words, not mine.

yes. There are a lot of older PC women out there. Linda Ellebee [sp?] is PC, and she also had an illegal abortion. She had to have a double mastectomy d/t breast cancer. Did you know that? Nope. No link between abortion and breast cancer.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 7:23 PM
.....................................................

The only link is in the imaginations of the PL spin doctors and their gullible subscribers. There isn't a shred of even basic logic in the assertion that any medical procedure causes cancer. As much as you would like women to be punished for making the choice to abort. Like if a woman aborts spontaneously she will not develop breast cancer but something in the decision center of the brain triggers this cancer if a woman should choose to abort? Come on! That's ridiculous and flies in the face of research that points to a genetic marker.

I don't want women who abort to suffer. That happens anyway.

Silent No More, Rachel's Vineyard, and Safe Haven Ministries are all web sites for men and women who want to heal from abortion. Who do you think set up these sites? Um, it was set up by post abortive men and women.

Hal, women who become pregnant shortly after abortion are usually wanting to replace the aborted child. That's another story, but I guess it's true. She' the second girl I've known to do this. The other girl waited 6 months. Both say that their abortions were a mistake.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 7:28 PM
............................

'Knowing' two people that have 'done this' isn't a convincing qualification for your statement.
A woman whom has aborted may wish to change her circumstances strongly enough to be able to provide a supportive life for a child to actually do so. Why are you always so negative about women?

okay. Gotta go.

Sorry Hal, but abortion IS objectively wrong. You're a relativist and therefore anything goes.Anything can be right, depending upon the circumstances and your needs. However, there is an objective truth which we can know through natural law (placed within us by God and inherent in ourselves) and through divine law (God). There are some things that are wrong period. Taking an innocent human life in the situation of abortion, is one of those. It is wrong because it's against natural law and divine law. The unfortunate problem is that as long as someone hides behind the relativist position (wrong for you, but not for me) no real discussion can EVER take place. This is because there is one side (the relativist) which does not seek to KNOW the truth.
In life issues such as abortion, euthanasia etc, the relativist pposition eventually leads to a utilitarian ethic. This kind of thinking is at the root of the culture of death. Thus, your children will be able to argue equally eloquently that it will be okay to pull the plug on you or your wife if for example, either of you are recovering from a car accident etc. It may be right for THEM but certainly not for you.
What you and your wife did is wrong, not because I say it's wrong but because it breaks both divine and natural law. The truth is out there, find it Hal!

I don't want women who abort to suffer. That happens anyway.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 7:37 PM
.......................................

Suffering happens to everyone. If it is associated with making a choice, the person suffering from choice needs to learn critical thinking skills.

Well, web site after web site supports my claim.

Posted by: heather at January 2, 2008 7:26 PM
..............................................

Ummm, OK. You get all your information from PL web sites. Big surprise.

By the way Hal, I feel, the reason you're so strident in your proabort belief is that a very very sensitive nerve has been touched. Maybe you hurt, then again maybe not....

Patricia- or maybe a woman's right to choose is a very important matter. I was a strong pro-choice advocate before my abortion.

I like how Sally mixes in miscarriage (she calls spontaneous abortion) and abortion in the same sentence. Its like comparing a man who dies from heart-attack from natural causes vs. one who dies from a heart-attack by poisoning (murder).

Okay... I am curious: Does your wife ever read this blog along with you, Hal? It just seems that the topic of abortion would have come up between you two, as much time as you spend discussing it online. Do you not talk with your wife about conversations you have online concerning abortion?

Also, I am still curious as to how you could grieve your miscarriages, and not grieve an abortion? You said that your second abortion was not something that you necessarily wanted, but that your wife felt that her health was in jeopardy by continuing the pregnancy. If this is so, then wouldn't you still feel some type of loss or grief after the abortion, since the baby was not aborted because of un-wantedness, since you say that you have grieved over your miscarriages?
This is very perplexing to me.

"There are some things that are wrong period."
I agree, a law outlawing abortion would be wrong. Not because I said so, but because it is not within the power of our government to tell free people what medical procedures they can have.

"This kind of thinking is at the root of the culture of death. Thus, your children will be able to argue equally eloquently that it will be okay to pull the plug on you or your wife if for example, either of you are recovering from a car accident etc. It may be right for THEM but certainly not for you."

Oh it most certainly would be right for me, and I've told them to do it.

Sally, 7:35PM

Please refer to www.abortionbreastcancer.com for the most up to date research on the abortion/breast cancer connection.

Well Hal, first off, I feel sorry that you would tell your children to kill you off if they felt you were too much of a bother. That's sad. But maybe that's an effect of your abortions - you value your life very little.
It is actually within the power of a government to protect ALL its citizens and unborn children used to be considered citizens. Abortion is NOT a valid medical procedure and in fact, physicians use to take an oath against it.

-------------------------------------------------
Bethany,
The difference for Hal between the miscarriages and abortion is one of convenience - they suddenly WANTED the unborn child. In fact, if this is the case, it merely points out Hal's inconsistent thinking. How could he grieve one child and not another? His kids must be mightily confused.
-------------------------------------------------
Erin,
That's the problem - it is about CHOICE. Except one person has ALL the choice - the pregnant woman. In no other circumstance, does anyone have a say over another person's life the way a pregnant woman does today. It is a measure of how unjust our society has become.

Sorry Hal, but abortion IS objectively wrong. You're a relativist and therefore anything goes.Anything can be right, depending upon the circumstances and your needs. However, there is an objective truth which we can know through natural law (placed within us by God and inherent in ourselves) and through divine law (God). There are some things that are wrong period. Taking an innocent human life in the situation of abortion, is one of those. It is wrong because it's against natural law and divine law. The unfortunate problem is that as long as someone hides behind the relativist position (wrong for you, but not for me) no real discussion can EVER take place. This is because there is one side (the relativist) which does not seek to KNOW the truth.
In life issues such as abortion, euthanasia etc, the relativist pposition eventually leads to a utilitarian ethic. This kind of thinking is at the root of the culture of death. Thus, your children will be able to argue equally eloquently that it will be okay to pull the plug on you or your wife if for example, either of you are recovering from a car accident etc. It may be right for THEM but certainly not for you.
What you and your wife did is wrong, not because I say it's wrong but because it breaks both divine and natural law. The truth is out there, find it Hal!

Posted by: Patricia at January 2, 2008 7:44 PM
.......................................................

Belief in a god/s is not an objective truth.

gotta to go, we want to watch Hairspray.
By the way, my 15 and 13 year girls are baffled by Hal.
Sometimes,out of the mouth of babes....

Truth does not depend upon whether you believe in God.

I support Hal and his logic fully. And I am a dad and grandfather. I have known many women, married and not, who have had an abortion. While not proud of the decision, they harbor no guilt. Not everyone believes a clump of cells is a "child". If you do, well, fine. It certainly does not give you the mandate to dictate to others that your belief is fact.

Thank you Dorchester.

well said.

Patricia, I'm sure your girls and my girls would baffle each other a lot. The experience would probably be good for all of them.

I like how Sally mixes in miscarriage (she calls spontaneous abortion) and abortion in the same sentence. Its like comparing a man who dies from heart-attack from natural causes vs. one who dies from a heart-attack by poisoning (murder).

Posted by: jasper at January 2, 2008 7:54 PM
...................................

Jasper dear, a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. Don't like it? Prove to the medical community that miscarriage is more accurate terminology for the termination of a pregnancy due to undetermined causes.
Your heart attack analogy can only work if you can prove that a person causing the death of anything will cause them a disease.
Your analogy is logically, if purposely cause the death of anything, I will get a specific disease. If I accidently cause the death of something I will not get that disease.
I'd bet my last dollar that neither you nor heather will be hailed by the scientific community for anything during your lifetimes.

Dorchester 8:16pm

Why weren't these women proud of their decision?

Patricia-

I love Hairspray!! Hope you and your 'babes'(I think they're a bit old to be considered babes) enjoy it! I always end up dancing around the room when I hear that music!

Wait...

Where are all these hurting women?

The "Silent No More" people had a demonstration on the steps of the Florida State House that drew 8 women. Their Washington demonstration drew 22.
Silent'No More's sad attempt to get 5000 signatures from women who claimed to be "hurt" by their abortions failed miserably.

You guys keep claiming there's this vast, thundering herd of damaged women out there. Where are they?

(PS, if you refer to the "Silent No More Tesimonials" page, I'm gonna post the ones that are PURE BS. They're HILARIOUS.)

Sally,

The person suffering the heart attack is analogous to the unborn child. The unorn child can die on his own naturally or intentionally murdered by the hands of a killer (abortionist).

Heart failure = miscarriage
Heart failure by poision = abortion

I saw my dog chasing his tail tonight.

I thought of Hal for some reason….

"You guys keep claiming there's this vast, thundering herd of damaged women out there. Where are they?"

how many women do you know who look back and say "geez, i'm really glad I had that abortion when I was young."

Hooves,
George isn't helping...are you ready for the aerodynamic little guy to come back your way?

He misses you.

Jasper,
I saw that!

"You guys keep claiming there's this vast, thundering herd of damaged women out there. Where are they?"

they're silent.

Posted by: jasper at January 2, 2008 9:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't exist.
It's estimated that 1-2% of all women who have abortions feel any angst over their decision. That's the same percentage of the population that's already tweaked to begin with.

Jasper,
uh oh...

how many women do you know who look back and say "geez, i'm really glad I had that abortion when I was young."

Posted by: jasper at January 2, 2008 9:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Go to the Ms. Magazine site or the "I'm Not Sorry" site. You'll find thousands of testimonials from women who were grateful that abortion was available when they needed it.

Laura,
Can you prove that those testimonies were legit and not a slew of bored PP reps that aren't getting enough "business" posting on websites to promote their "business"?

Laura,
Can you prove that those testimonies were legit and not a slew of bored PP reps that aren't getting enough "business" posting on websites to promote their "business"?

Posted by: AB Laura at January 2, 2008 9:46 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How in the hell would that promote business?
"Gee, some chick on a website doesn't regret her abortion. I guess I'll get knocked-up and have one..."

Laura,
Think about it....if thousands of women are supposedly saying "it's ok & you won't feel bad about it"...and you have a young girl contemplating abortion, but not sure because deep down in her heart she knows it's wrong and thinks she may feel bad about it...the scale can tip in favor of the business that's promoting it by using this technique, no?

And why do you always use the word "hell" in a response to me??? Curious.

Laura,
You may want to keep your eyes peeled to see how many prolifers are at the March for Life this year. Oh wait. The media will show 5 PL's and 10 PC's with their wire hangers, of course. Hey, I was one who signed Silent No More's petition! Hey, I am part of the vast, thundering herd! Define "failed miserably."
Silent No More is just one organization. There are plenty.
I am sure I will be dismissed with some nasty comment. Don't disappoint me.

Carla,
But thanks to Jill & many others, the media will not be able to hide the truth much longer.....

Laura,

I mean, do YOU know any women personally who is glad they had their abortion?

It is estimated 1-2% of women who have had abortions feel any angst?
Source please.

I know several women who are glad they had abortions. I can think of four off hand. I don't know anyone who regrets it.

(back to chasing my tail....)

Hal,
Maybe you don't Know me. You know Of me. There.
I'm one who regrets it. One.

Hal,

my wife had a good friend who aborted her unborn child at 5 months pregnant because the doctor told her the child some sort of defect. So, she had the abortion and the autopsy revieled that the baby was normal. This women hasn't been the same since.

Good point Carla......I just checked out your blog, you have a lovely family.

Ok, I'm sorry you regret your decision. Do you think that it would have been better if you made a different decision or if you didn't have the right to make the decision?

Thank you for saying you are sorry, Hal.
A different decision please. I unfortunately did not have anyone I felt I could turn to for advice. There was no "other side" telling me about adoption or offering me a job, a place to live, maternity clothes...I lived across the street from a church and I wish now I would have ran over there just to maybe...just maybe hear something, anything else. I, in no way looked at any other options. Can I tell you something, Hal? I would give anything to have my 16 year old with me right now. Anything! That ache will never go away. That longing I carry with me. I was stupid and selfish and I rushed into something I truly was not prepared in anyway for. My mom brought my sister for hers. My example. Anyway, I am a woman who wishes she could go back and undo it. Really, truly I do. I am blessed to have 4 beautiful children. 4 more 4 life! ha
Thank you Jasper. :)

Dorchester 8:16PM

I'm still waiting to hear why these women weren't proud of their decision.

Hal,
All people have a God given right to freedom of choice. God knew we would sin, but still gives each of us freedom of choice.
But the truth that killing human life is a sin is not an objective statement. It is a truth. Any idea when a blob of cells becomes a human life? Can you somehow make it into an objective statement? Can the truth really vary on a case by case basis? Answer is NOOO. It is murder.

Dorchester,
Maybe you can answer for Hal?

I don't believe in sin.

OK ABL--I just got out of the tub (had a book to finish and it's the only quiet place!) so you may feel free to send George back at your convenience…I’m really sorry to hear he didn’t help!! :(

I’ll just set up a catcher’s mitt in front of my monitor so he will be waiting for me in the morning….I’m off to bed!

"I don't believe in sin."

We have a winner for the deepest-in-denial award...

And the I-will-justify-my-position-at-any-cost award…

Oh yes, and the most-extreme-moral-relativism-statement-of-the-year award…

And it’s only January 2nd.

‘Night all.

I'd like to thank the academy.......

my wife had a good friend who aborted her unborn child at 5 months pregnant because the doctor told her the child some sort of defect. So, she had the abortion and the autopsy revieled that the baby was normal. This women hasn't been the same since.

Posted by: jasper at January 2, 2008 10:23 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WOW! What was the doctor's name?
He must have lost his licence. That woman must have won MILLIONS in the malpractice suit! I'd love to read about it - you know - if the whole story wasn't a poorly-spun lie.

I'm still waiting to hear why these women weren't proud of their decision.

Posted by: Mary at January 2, 2008 10:37 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Should I be proud of a root canal?
Should I be proud that I chose to have a root canal?
You people have a really funny attitude towards simple medical procedures.

Hal,
Are you just o.k. with killing period whenever it suits yours or your wives agenda, or only life in your wives womb. Wether or not you believe in sin does not change the truth that abortion is taking a human life. It is a truth. Your dehumanizing a 12 week old human life by calling it a blob of cells can never change the fact tht you are killing human life.

Hal..... Where do you stand on partial-birth abortion? Is it o.k. or not o.k? I know PP and abortionists are willing to deliver babies to the chest and poke a hole in their skull. And they do it just for financial gain. Do you see a problem with that?

And they do it just for financial gain. Do you see a problem with that?

Posted by: Truthseeker at January 3, 2008 12:27 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, the technique was developed to deliver the grossly distorted heads of hydrocephalic fetuses without hacking the woman to bits.
It was the safest method possible, and had nothing to do with financial gain.

Laura,
Remember, what goes around comes around.
When it comes around for you Laura, your going to have to bury your head deeper then a dog trying to get away from the dreaded dog cop.
Btw, how many dogs have you sent to the death chambers while the dog has been pregnant?
Is that why your pro death for little humans too, Laura?
I see this image of Laura in sunglasses yellin at a old lady with one to many dogs yellin' "Respect My AuthorIty". Is your last name Cartman?

Laura, do you know how many of all the partial birth abortions performed were for performed for that reason. Is that information available to anybody except the abortion providers? Why wait until end-of-term unless the babies are viable? Wouldn't a C-section would be easier? Stabbing a live baby in the skull is just inhumane. Barbaric. Wouldn't you agree

Laura, do you know how many of all the partial birth abortions performed were for performed for that reason. Is that information available to anybody except the abortion providers? It seems like that condition would be easily recognizable by a typical ultrasound. Why kill the baby just cause it has a grossly distorted head? Wouldn't a C-section be easier? Stabbing a live baby in the skull is just inhumane. Barbaric. Wouldn't you agree?

yllas,
The truth speaks for itself. No need for personal attacks.

Well Truthseeker,
When a person makes personal remarks about others, including a dead son's tombstone, one must expect that Laura can accept her words of wisdom comin back to her.
As for truth, it is really simple, one kills innocent life, or one does not. Your not going to change Laura, she enjoys the fruits of death. In fact, Laura is fruity for death.
And you know the definition of truth, it is the mind conforming to reality. Which means, either you or Laura isn't conforming to reality concerning "matters of abortion"(nonsensical phrase learned from Doug)!!!

Bethany, good question to Hal. Hal, does your wife know that you are visiting a PL web site? Where is her input? Are you the one who pushed for her to have these abortions? Do you feel guilty? Does she? Something is wrong with this picture you've painted. Also, you never discuss it anymore? Well, how on earth do you expect to have 2 well adjusted PC girls? You'd better start discussing things.

I think the I'M NOT SORRY site is BS. How come you can't leave a comment?

Hal, did you hear Carla say that she would do anything to have her 16 year old with her right now? Yet, you remain so callous about the death of your own children.

Visit the "Silent No More" web site. You will see more than just a "handful" of women who want healing.

Hal, did you hear Carla say that she would do anything to have her 16 year old with her right now? Yet, you remain so callous about the death of your own children.

Posted by: heather at January 3, 2008 1:17 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hal has never lost a child. He has two fine daughters.
Carla had her pregnancy sucked out because she didn't want a kid. It was her decision, she wanted an abortion, and chose to have one.

llyas,
The truth is not the mind conforming to reality. The truth is reality and does not change due to your minds perception. That was the point I was making. Abortion is taking a human life. Nobody can rationally argue otherwise regardless of their perception.

Visit the "Silent No More" web site. You will see more than just a "handful" of women who want healing.

Posted by: heather at January 3, 2008 1:18 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No. Count the testimonies. Even if you include the ones that are CLEARLY BS, there are very few.

Heather,
You seem to know quite a few people who have had abortions. Of all those people who have had abortions, have any of them lost a child,brother,sister,mother,father by accident, or other means, before their abortion?

Why kill the baby just cause it has a grossly distorted head? Wouldn't a C-section be easier? Stabbing a live baby in the skull is just inhumane. Barbaric. Wouldn't you agree?

Posted by: Truthseeker at January 3, 2008 12:48 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why give a woman a HUGE, slashing, stem-to-stern caesarian to deliver something that's going to live for - maybe - a day? (IF it survives birth at all...) Why not use the technique safest for the woman and her future fertility?

Well Truthicus( a honorific with deference due),
Sadly, the mind does interpret reality. Reality does not change for those interpretations of perceptions. Truth is the mind conforming to reality. That minds try to take a perception of reality and make it conform to their needs and wants is where Laura denies what is really growing in a mother. And even if it is human, the babies humanity is decided by the mind, as having no worth. So, what is the truth/reality, of worth?

Laura, no response to my previous post to you?
Do you know how many of all the partial birth abortions performed were for performed for that reason. Is that information available to anybody except the abortion providers? It seems like that condition would be easily recognizable by a typical ultrasound. Why kill the baby just cause it has a grossly distorted head? Wouldn't a C-section be easier? Stabbing a live baby in the skull is just inhumane. Barbaric. Wouldn't you agree?

yllas,
The mind does interpret reality, you are correct. And people can be blinded to the truth or prefer not to accept the truth. But just cause you get used to the smell doesn't stop the shit from stinking.

Laura says her poop smells like roses!!
But, respect,honor,deference,worth, wishes,really don't exist, without a mind giving a meaning to them. No matter how much you tell Laura her poop is not a rose smell, she interprets the perception of her poop, as the smell of a rose. Your reality does not conform to Laura's reality, one of you is nutz!

Laura,
I know I went through a D&E with my wife and it was a terrible experience. Our baby had something similar but it was actually dead in utero at 20 weeks. I can tell you that the D&E procedure was difficult on my wife even though the baby was already dead. It sounds even sadder to be told that your baby is severly diseased and will likely not survive more than a day after delivery. Just one precious day to comfort and hold a bay after feeling it live and grow insde you for some 200 days? Wouldn't you want to give that to your baby if you could?

And even if you did not want to have a C-section. Wouldn't you at least want to spare your baby the savage stab of a metzenbaum scissors through the skull?

Laura is right, partially. The child I carried was unwanted.It is wanted now. Today. Too late. I chose an abortion, it was my decision. I did not WANT an abortion. I WANTED help. I wanted my family and friends to say that they would support me and help me. I wanted someone, anyone to say that I had other options available to me. How is it "choice" when I never entertained other choices?

HUGE, slashing, stem to stern c-section? What? I have seen my friends scar. Barely noticeable at all. I think it's called a bikini incision.

Doug,

And where does this desire to "Play by the same rules come from".
*
MK, down deep, a society is a group of people with things in common. One of those things in common is the expectation of and desire for "the same rules." Societies don't always do so hot, there, but the desire and expectation is there nonetheless.

But where does this "common desire" originate from?

Are you saying that there are chemical reactions that are caused by pleasurable experiences? Or are you saying there is an objective good and an objective evil?

The original question was, after all, "or do you believe that good and evil are relative.

Doug,

Because, see I'm confused. You say it is relative but then you say "ideals"...this contradicts itself.

Relative is as it relates to you and is subjective, while collective ideals are more objective and based on something outside of oneself.

I certainly believe in it - it certainly is there on many levels, inndividual, group, the human race as a whole, etc., and yes, it's relative to what is wanted. Good is what is wanted. Evil, bad, etc., are what are not wanted. Not wanted because they are seen as injurious, harmful, mean, spiteful, not in line with ideals of good behavior, etc.

Doug,

I feel like they should wait in line, same as everybody else. I do not like it when they cut in.

But they like it when they DO cut in line. Why do your feelings win out. And don't tell me that it's society.

What if there were only three people in the store. You, the clerk, and the guy that cuts in line.

The clerk has no opinion because he gets paid either way. You were in line first. The other guy steps in front of you. How do you feel? Why?
Should he get behind you? Why? Why should he suffer and you should not?

Doug,

Good is what is wanted.

Why? I mean I can understand why the avoidance of pain, discomfort, etc. is wanted. But why do you call this "good"? Why not call it "lack of suffering" or "lack of displeasure". Why call it "good"?

Okay Doug,

One more question. Jesus hung on a cross for us (whether you believe He was nuts for doing so is beside the point). He voluntarily welcomed suffering (by your definition, something unwanted and therefore bad). This resulted in what many of us call "Good".

How do you reconcile somebody voluntarily accepting something that to you defines "bad" in order to produce a greater "good".

If good is avoiding pain, displeasure and suffering, how do you explain this?

Why would a woman that doesn't want to keep her child, "suffer" through pregnancy and childbirth, only to give the child up for adoption?

If suffering is "bad" then why do people sometimes "CHOOSE" to endure it?

Hal, I directed a question to you at 7:54 PM....I'm not sure if you missed it or not.

Doug,

I have continued this argument on the White site...please go back to the archives and respond?

'mornin' B,

I'm back in the saddle with Doug as you can see...go to the White site and read the rest...

mk--once again your logic and articulation (aimed at Doug) amaze me!

MK, I echo Hooves-In-Maw's comment. You really do so well! Going to the White post right now.

Hooves,

mk--once again your logic and articulation (aimed at Doug) amaze me!

He'll weasel his way out of this somehow...

He always does. But he's not fooling anyone!

He seems to have fallen back into the bad habit of "quoting" the law to express his own feelings.

I asked him what he would "DO" if abortion after 24 weeks became commonplace. His response? I wouldn't like it.

I asked what he would DO about it, not how he'd feel.

I love the guy, but he is so passively aggressive that I want to choke him!

I asked him what he would "DO" if abortion after 24 weeks became commonplace. His response? I wouldn't like it.

I know! That is sooo unbelievably frustrating. How hard would it be to just actually answer a question in the way it was asked?
Ugh!

I love the guy, but he is so passively aggressive that I want to choke him!

I know the feeling...

It's easy to "win" arguments (ie. have the last word) when you constantly answer questions that you were never asked, reply to assumptions that were never made, etc, and act as though you've been completely honest and upfront in doing so.

Laura,

I can tell you decisions I wasn't proud of and there was a reason I wasn't proud of them and I could tell you the reason.
Have you every specifically told people "I had a root canal but I'm not proud of my decision"? I would honestly consider that a rather peculiar comment.

A huge slashing scar? LOL! My friend gave birth just over a year ago. She's back in belly shirts and a bikini. No visible scarring.

oops *meant she gave birth via c-section.*

Mary, me too.

Bethany, lol!

I don't see where the Silent no More testimonies are B.S. How so? What do you mean by laughable? Maybe the girl telling her story is only 14, and she's not familiar with medical terminology. Maybe some things are "blocked out." They don't get paid for this, ya know. What would a bunch of liars have to gain by grouping together and lying?

So, every woman is supposed to love her abortion? You are expecting them to be stoic, Laura. Some women cannot handle it. Besides, there IS a possibility that some women don't have a single regret. I would say that these women fit the description of a sociopath. Actually, I do know of one such woman who aborted 7 years ago. She will say things like "I'm so glad that "thing" [man who got her pregnant] is out of my life forever." I will not be returning her calls this New Year. She may not regret her abortion, but she also refuses to accept responsibility for her actions in becoming pregnant,

Heather,

A good point. I'm sure I would sound just as "laughable" trying to use legal terminology. Would we consider the account of a rape victim "laughable" because she doesn't speak well, is uneducated, or is unfamiliar with police and legal terminology? Its entirely possible some of these women were very young and uneducated, that doesn't make them "laughable" or their accounts any less tragic.

Mary, you and I both:]

Besides, I have watched read many of the stories myself. They all seemed believable to me.

AAK, should say watched and read* I need more coffee.

Doug, haven't you figured it out yet?..sigh* another Hal.

Just so Hal doesn't miss it (there are a lot of posts to sift through):

Hal, I directed a question to you at 7:54 PM....I'm not sure if you missed it or not.
Posted by: Bethany at January 3, 2008 7:19 AM

Bethany, we don't talk about this blog. She doesn't know how much time I spend here (it varies too, yesterday was more, today will be hardly any).

We don't grieve the abortions. We have other issues, some good and some challenging, that take our time and attention.

We don't believe abortions are the "murder of our children." We have two children we love and enjoy.

Do you think women on the Pill grieve over the fact that a clump of cells/child fails to implant now and then?

No, they're happy the fertilized egg didn't implant. That's why they're on the pill.

Uh, folks...

A hydrocephalic fetus can carry as much as TWO GALLONS of fluid in its head.
That thing isn't coming out through a lateral "bikini" incision.

Terminology?

Here is one of my favorite BAD abortion testimonials from the "Silent No More" site.
This one is so awful it's funny. (I like the part where the nurse shows up at her bed, spreads her legs, AND SUCKS OUT THE BABY WHILE SHE FIGHTS!)
It's PURE BS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cries of My Heart

By Roxanne Richard

I was in my early 20's when I went to the ER as I couldn't keep anything down. I told them I may be pregnant, and I was on the Pill. Before I knew it, I was admitted for observation, given x-rays, and had my stomach pumped for hours. Come morning, I was met with an angry doctor, who sat down, flipped open my chart, and pointed to the red inked circled around "positive" for pregnancy. My doctor strongly suggested that I have an abortion because of what they had done to me the night before. I CHOSE ABORTION.

I drove for three hours, registered at the clinic in Iowa City, and sat by a wild-eyed redhead who tried to reassure me by saying the procedure was simple and quick. It was her sixth abortion. Lying on the bed, the nurse spread my legs, and before I knew it there was an awful sucking noise. I realized the sound was coming out of me, so I started fighting for them to stop. They calmed me down saying "it was nothing,” and they “would be done shortly." The next thing I knew I was 10 miles from there, puking my guts out on the side of the road, and moaning how wrong it all was. I slept on the way home and awoke to a cold beer and drugs before my pool league started.

I'm here to share how my choice to have an ABORTION affected my life each and every day for over 25 years. I suffered three miscarriages before I finally had my son Jesse, who is now 20 years old. I couldn't put my finger on it, but there was ALWAYS something missing in my life. I was a control freak, a drug addict, and an angry, bitter female, who couldn't look at herself in the mirror. Plagued with constant, self-destructive thoughts, I forgot how it felt to hold my head high. I told myself I was selfish, condemned, and unlovable to anyone, ESPECIALLY myself. My idea of a relationship was a one night stand or being with the guy who had the most drugs at the time. I went to different doctors for different prescriptions month after month, year after year. I was always in a hurry, chasing what I couldn't understand or define.

I praise GOD for using Silent No More Awareness and Rachel’s Vineyard Abortion Recovery Retreats to touch me and heal places I never knew were broken.

My babies have a name; I will never be the same.

Life is not a game, not even for a minute.

Jesus is my lifeline, and I'll NEVER forget it.

When was the last time a baby with two gallons of fluid in his head was delivered c-section or otherwise? They can now put shunts in their heads to drain the water into their stomachs.
I was a special education teacher. Worked with many children born with this condition. Loved em every one.

Hal, I knew you would be honest with me about that, and that is why I asked. Thank you for letting me know that you do not spend time discussing this blog. However, I do have to ask you why that is. Why do you spend a good deal of time on this blog, but never discuss it with your wife? Do you two normally have good communication? In other areas, do you communicate well? What does she do while you're blogging, just curious?

Do you think women on the Pill grieve over the fact that a clump of cells/child fails to implant now and then?

No, of course not, Hal. But people who have miscarriage grieve their loss, just as you freely admitted that you and your wife very much grieved the loss of your unborn child when you had a miscarriage.

If you can understand one grieving over a miscarriage, as you have grieved over your loss, then why can you not understand grieving an abortion?

Wait a minute...you said "fail to implant", not "fails to conceive", and I read it wrong.

Yes, women do grieve miscarriages which happen before the baby has implanted. This is called a "chemical pregnancy" and generally happens about the time the next period is due. Many women do not actually KNOW they are experiencing a miscarriage, so you're right, many do not grieve these types of miscarriages. But that is not because they did not lose a tiny person, it's because they didn't know. Just as if your child dies in another place and you are not aware of it you wouldn't grieve, as long as you didn't know it happened.

My second miscarriage was due to a chemical pregnancy, and yes, I grieved that loss. I had known I was pregnant for 2 weeks (my hcg levels were extremely high by the 2 week mark, and the doctor said it was possible I was carrying twins).

I find it interesting that anecdotes about friends who regret their abortions and friends who have delivered via c-section with no scarring are 100% acceptable, and yet Hal's admissions about his own life and his own relationship are treated as though all those commenting on this site know them better than he does. Is it really so hard to believe that someone has a different experience with abortion? Think whatever you want about a person who does not regret an abortion, but surely you can't be arrogant enough to believe that everyone either agrees with you or is a liar? That there is legitimately no experience but the one you think is right?

It is just as invalidating to tell a woman that she's repressing her guilt, that someday she will suddenly regret her abortion, as it is to tell a woman that she only regrets it because the big bad pro-life movement brainwashed her into doing so. I'd wager a bet that Hal knows his wife -- and himself -- a whole heck of a lot better than anyone else on this site.

I don't doubt grieving miscarriages, and have done so. (I also said it was difficult but, for me, no where near as hard as losing a child would be). But, I see no reason to grieve an abortion (unless you were truly forced to do it) any more than one would grieve the fact that you don't get pregnant every month when you're on the pill. Even if there was "conception," the "baby" is not wanted and I don't think too many woman are unhappy that the pill causes the "baby" to fail to implant, and that they are no longer pregnant (If you guys have correctly educated me on the Pill's effects)

So, in the same way, I don't think too many women grieve that they were no longer pregnant after an abortion. (I will admit some do. I met one on line yesterday who seems sincerely to regret her choice to have an abortion. I will note, however, although she wishes she made a different choice, she does not wish the choice was taken away by law.)

I'll be offline the rest of the day. Best wishes to all.

It is just as invalidating to tell a woman that she's repressing her guilt, that someday she will suddenly regret her abortion, as it is to tell a woman that she only regrets it because the big bad pro-life movement brainwashed her into doing so. I'd wager a bet that Hal knows his wife -- and himself -- a whole heck of a lot better than anyone else on this site.

Alexandria, yes, there are people who do not regret abortion. We do acknowledge that. However, it is not accurate to say that most women feel relief, which is what the Pro-"choice" community will try to get across to people.

I am simply asking Hal to explain himself. He told me several months ago that he and his wife grieved very much over the loss of one of their unborn children, due to miscarriage. He said it was VERY sad for them.

Compare that to the nonchalant response to the abortion, ("we haven't given it another thought") the abortion which Hal has admitted did NOT happen because the child was unwanted, but because his wife's health was in jeopardy. If this is true, why would he not feel saddened that it "had to come to that", just as he felt saddened that his miscarriage happened.

What Hal claims is contradictory, and I would simply like to hear an honest response to the question at hand.

I don't doubt grieving miscarriages, and have done so. (I also said it was difficult but, for me, no where near as hard as losing a child would be). But, I see no reason to grieve an abortion (unless you were truly forced to do it) any more than one would grieve the fact that you don't get pregnant every month when you're on the pill. Even if there was "conception," the "baby" is not wanted and I don't think too many woman are unhappy that the pill causes the "baby" to fail to implant, and that they are no longer pregnant (If you guys have correctly educated me on the Pill's effects)
So, in the same way, I don't think too many women grieve that they were no longer pregnant after an abortion. (I will admit some do. I met one on line yesterday who seems sincerely to regret her choice to have an abortion. I will note, however, although she wishes she made a different choice, she does not wish the choice was taken away by law.)
I'll be offline the rest of the day. Best wishes to all.

Okay, I hope you have a good day, Hal. When you get back though, I would like you to explain to me why we are talking about women who are on the pill, and not the answer to the question, which was, why did you feel pain after the miscarriage and not after the abortion?
Even if the grief was not as severe as losing a born child, why did you grieve the miscarriage at all? And then, why not the abortion, since you claimed it was not something that you did because the child was unwanted?

Laura 10:48am

Will you specify what in this testimonial you find so hilarious?

Bethany, just to clear up two things. You either misunderstood me, or I wasn't clear before

1. My wife's health was part of the reason to have an abortion, but the pregnancy would not have jeopardized her heath or life. I don't like getting too personal here, especially with my wife's personal life, but it was more of a recognition that we had a lot to deal with and another baby at that time would have been overwhelming. (It's more complicated than even that, but I don't want to pour my life story out here)

2. We were sad about the miscarriage. It was difficult few weeks. For us, it was not VERY sad or like losing a child. I don't dispute that for others it is more disturbing. To be completely honest, there was also some relief, as many of the same issues were in play at that time as well and although we had not decided to have an abortion, another baby at that time would have been a challenge.

Mary, she has posted that testimony laughingly about 5 times now, and as many times as I've read it, I still can't figure out what she thinks is wrong with it. Hopefully she'll take the time to answer you.

2. We were sad about the miscarriage. It was difficult few weeks. For us, it was not VERY sad or like losing a child. I don't dispute that for others it is more disturbing. To be completely honest, there was also some relief, as many of the same issues were in play at that time as well and although we had not decided to have an abortion, another baby at that time would have been a challenge.

Hal, why was the miscarriage difficult at all? If it is simply a "clump of cells" that you lost...what in the world would be difficult about that? Why wasn't it the same emotionally as if your wife was simply having a period again?

Hal,

I'm curious, if another baby was out of the question, did you or your wife ever consider sterilization? Could both of you have been sterilized, as I have known some couples to do, just to be doubly safe? That would have put the issue of any more babies to rest once and for all.

Laura,
Maybe you find the written word hilarious but you could also check out the tv show Faces of Abortion. Pick an episode.
www.operationoutcry.org

I fail to see the hilarity in your post Laura. How do you know that it is pure BS? Where you there? Haven't you ever heard of people having bad experiences with medical professionals?

Laura,
Maybe you find the written word hilarious but you could also check out the tv show Faces of Abortion. Pick an episode.
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OK, how about the one where the hostess on that show tells her young daughter about how "Grandma and Grandpa MADE me have