There will be an important Aurora Zoning Board of Appeals meeting this coming Monday, January 7, with 3 big issues on tap.

Based on the 3 issues, the ZBA will either decide to close down Planned Parenthood for multiple ordinance and zoning violations, or not.

If so great, the rule of law has prevailed. If not, our side will take the City of Aurora to court if the ZBA agrees with it on #1 to force the City to follow its own city laws, according to Thomas More Society attorney Peter Breen in an email to me.

The 3 issues....

1. City's motion to dismiss

Get this hubris. Two ZBA hearing dates and a full month after the ZBA expressed intent to agree to subpoena (see #2), Weingartz has now challenged the ZBA's authority to subpoena! Here's our side's response.

So that's issue #1: Can the Aurora ZBA subpoena Aurora officials? If the ZBA agrees it has no subpoena power, then #2 and #3 are moot.

2. Subpoenas

Our side has filed a 2nd motion with the ZBA to subpoena city officials to find out who knew what when about Planned Parenthood, and how much they knew, as well as subpoena the so-called "independent" investigators to find out what information Weingartz gave them by which to make their opinions. You'll recall the ZBA slapped Weingartz (pictured right) at last month's meeting for refusing to hand over documents to our side and told her to cough up most. We want all.

3. Backdating

This is a new one. When last we left Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner and his legal sidekick Alayne Weingartz, they were trying to figure out how to keep Planned Parenthood open despite the fact PP's 3rd and final temporary permit expired December 17.

The clever pair simply decided to backdate the permit to say it was issued October 1 and expires July 1, 2008.

"Foul!" cried TMS attorneys, who immediately filed a motion on December 18 with the ZBA to nullify that move.

Breen explained backdating, particularly in this case, was "absolutely illegal" according to Aurora zoning ordinances, ZBA rules and regs, and various IL laws. Why?

A) Aurora officials have admitted zoning irregularities occurred during the PP approval process. Aurora zoning ordinances (i.e., local city law) state tht certificates of occupancy can't be issued when there are zoning irregularities. Aurora can't issue new permits or certificates when plans don't meet zoning requirements. Not only have city officials acknowledged zoning screw-ups, zoning violations are now clearly visible, including parking, set-backs, and wrong approvals from the City.

B) Whenever anyone files an appeal to the ZBA, which our side has done, that action stays "all proceedings in furtherance of the action appeal from," according to ZBA rules and regs, meaning the city can't make any further actions until the appeal is resolved.

So issue #3 is for the ZBA to resolve whether to nullify the backdated temporary certificates of occupancy.

The smell of rats only grows stronger. Stay tuned.

How you keep up with all this, Jill, I don't know.

Will you be in Aurora on Monday to live blog the hearing?

Carder, I get good information from the people directly involved, who are very patient with me by explaining and reexplaining things so I understand so as to try to relay the information sans legaleze.

I'm not attending the meeting Monday, but I expect Eric Scheidler will live blog again, as he's been doing lately, and I'll have a report Monday night or Tuesday.

Page 3 of Alayne's challenge:

The final result of the review was a conclusion that all procedures were followed properly, and
no material misrepresentations were made.

HUH? Wow...she is nuts!

AB Laura - she is out of her mind. You know what they say, the more you tell a lie the more you begin to believe it yourself.

yawn.

Tara, TRUE!

Hal, keep yawning away. Let me put the landfill on the lot next to your house! Then let's see if you will be yawning away.

Man, I can't WAIT to see what happens.

Off topic, but have y'all been hearing about the storms hitting No. Cal??

It's just as bad as it sounds...

In fact, I think I just saw Toto fly past my office window...

Hooves,
Stay safe! sounds really bad....winds 70-150mph??? (I just read that on weather.com). Maybe you should go home early today?

Actually, I stayed home to begin with and my husband left work after 1 hour and 3 power outages (his office complex is right near the levee for the Sacramento river and he said the whole area looks like a warzone). Our power here at home just came back on for the first time today. It IS crazy bad and is just now starting to simmer down a little for the first time since around 4am (1:30 here now...) We are both of the bunker-mentality, survivalist bent so we’ve got enough food, water, candles, guns and ammo to sit out quite a siege if need be…sure is nice to have on hand even if not needed because instead of worrying we just made sure everything was laid out, battened down and accessible, cranked up the hand-crank radio and stayed tuned in while we nibbled snacks and played Yatzee by the light of the storm!

Hal,

I don't understand you...your logic is elusive, your explanations vague, your posture on your privacy defensive and all you want to do is dribble little “hints” at things that are wrong (fishing for sympathies that you know you will get here?) and then get irritated and standoffish when people ask for more definitive information.

I’m beginning to wonder if you aren’t the same bored, low-level PP marketing rep named Larry that I suspected was actually writing the Emily X blog….just cruising this site for distraction?

May sound harsh…but come on—put up or shut up for crying out loud.

And as for the topic at hand, call me a cynic but my money is on corruption scoring another win….unfortunately.

Hooves, don't concede so easily to corruption. This is far, far, far, from over. I have been following this story pretty closely and it will probably end up in state court and then may even head to the supreme court. The Weisner/Weingartz comedy show will come to a head and explode. The PP debacle is just a part of their incompetence. It is kind of like Laura's posts, just when you think it can't possibly get any more wacky they end up outdoing themselves. I will try and make it to the Monday meeting to see first hand the incompetence of the Aurora legal council. It would be funny if it weren't so sad with the mockery of justice the city of Aurora presents.

In the first ZBA hearing on the issue, the board chairperson represented the status of the ZBA as a "quasi-judicial" body that was able to issue subpoenas in the course of carrying out its mandate. At the time this was uncontested by Aurora's counsel.

Now however it is a different story. The city is desperately trying to evade the legal standing of the ZBA and pretends that the ZBA has no authority in the matter. Obfuscation is their only hope.

It is kind of like Laura's posts, just when you think it can't possibly get any more wacky they end up outdoing themselves.

LOL—touché!

Seriously though, my cynicism isn’t necessarily about whether or not the mill is eventually shut down, but the fact that it will be allowed to remain open for business while the inevitable suits are pending….I just don’t see the ZBA having the giblets to shut the doors. And in the meantime more lives are destroyed.

I pray God that they do…have the giblets, I mean.

"may sound harsh…but come on—put up or shut up for crying out loud."

Ok, I'll shut up. I never tried to get sympathy here, but I'm sorry if it appears that way. Good luck in getting abortion outlawed.

Best wishes to the rest of you, on both sides of the issue.

'Bye Larry.

Good luck in getting abortion outlawed.

Good luck in getting over your pity party.

*Gratuitous sarcasm riposte*

Hooves, I will have to disagree with you about Hal. He was being genuine on the other post. We have asked him repeatedly about his wife. He was only responding to our requests for info. He has been one of the most respectful prochoicers on here. I don't agree with Hal's positions on abortion, but I have enjoyed getting to know him. We will have to agree to disagree about Hal. Sorry.

Carrie,

We can certainly agree to disagree on Hal--no need to say "sorry"! I take no offense to a difference of opinion. I did not find him disrespectful, but I did find his elusiveness and lack of being able to provide substantive answers to direct questions very suspicious in the end….as was said on one of the threads, something was “wrong” with either him or his situation as he was presenting it. I think he either wasn’t being totally honest, was flat out making things up as he went, or just wouldn’t back up what he was putting out there. I find that annoying after reading post after post after post trying to pin him down to answer a question. Doug spars with mk all the time, but at least he will answer the question, and I think he makes a genuine attempt to be direct even if his arguments seem circular to me. Like I said, we can agree to disagree but Hal puts it out there and then wants to dodge and dodge and dodge….I was just telling him how weird that seems to me….it puts my suspicion antenna on high alert, that’s all. And like he said, “fine, I’ll just shut up then…” no engagement, no rebuttal…just a sarcastic fare-thee-well. Not on me if that’s how he chooses to deal with the direct approach. Which, after following his posts for a while, would appear to be how he deals with a lot of things.

No problem Hooves. I have been on here too much today. I think I am going to take a break this weekend. This place is very addictive. :)

I know whatcha mean!! Have a nice evening!

Hal and the rest just beat themselves up so bad trying to convince people it's o.k. to kill babies.

And good riddence to the abortion mill.
ZBA, take the permit away.
ZBA, take the permit away.

Bethany, in an unrelated question to this thread, how do you know that the young girl pictured where you said "Zeke," is really Zeke?

It seems mighty farfetched to me.

Doug

Hal and the rest just beat themselves up so bad trying to convince people it's o.k. to kill babies.

Heh, that was from "Truthseeker." What a laugh.

You're wrong about Hal.

Doug

This place is very addictive. :)

Ha! Carrie, I hear that. IMO the internet is "made" for lots of people.

The action is a little slower here, and the responses tend to be a little longer, but these boards are like a chatroom.

First time I got into a chatroom, back in 1996, I stayed 36 hours straight. It was such a great time.

Slept for 7 hours, then got back up and chatted for another 13 hours. (It really helps one learn to type.)

A little later, in that same chatroom, I met my wife-to-be. She was in NM, me in OH. visited her a couple times, and she came to see me when I was working in Baltimore in the first few months.

Less that five months after we met, she moved in with me, and prior to getting online I would have scoffed at such a thing.

Here I am, 11 years and a week after meeting my wife "in real life" (the Albuquerque airport), with her, and thank goodness for the internet.

We just left that same Albuquerque airport just yesterday....

Best,

Doug

Hey Doug,
Here is Hals post from the Manger blog:
******************************************
"What kind of a beast are you?"

the kind that doesn't see anything wrong with a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy.

Posted by: Hal at January 2, 2008 6:20 PM
*******************************************

Seems "What kind of a beast are you?"

the kind that doesn't see anything wrong with a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy.

Posted by: Hal at January 2, 2008 6:20 PM
*******************************************
Sounds pretty much exactly like someone punishing themselves and beating their head against the wall trying to convince people it's o.k. to kill babies. What was your take on it?

Bethany,
Thanks for the Kudos

Hal and the rest just beat themselves up so bad trying to convince people it's o.k. to kill babies.

Posted by: Truthseeker at January 4, 2008 10:48 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You know of someone who's killing babies?
CALL 911 RIGHT NOW! KILLING BABIES IS AGAINST THE LAW!

Laura - Please see http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/02/baby_rowan_911.html

Doug,

At one point you stated that late term abortions were rare, and done for very serious reasons. Now granted, these abortions were done 16 weeks and later, and your def. is 24 weeks or later, but note the reasons given...

United States

See also: Reasons for abortions.

In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]

* 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
* 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
* 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
* 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
* 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
* 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
* 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
* 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
* 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
* 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
* 11% Other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Also look at the restrictions on late term abortions. The reason there are more of them is not because they are illegal, but because doctors with an ounce of common decency won't perform them.

You know of someone who's killing babies?
CALL 911 RIGHT NOW! KILLING BABIES IS AGAINST THE LAW!

Posted by: Laura at January 5, 2008 3:15 AM--------------------- Abortion is legalized murder. You know what we are saying. Speaking of 911, did you know that abortion clinics HATE to call that #? Even if the woman is on death's door, they are still hesitant. It's bad for business.

They don't care if she croaks. Just don't croak on the abortion table.

Let's review, shall we?

Patient lays dying, abortionist gets a hem

According to an Associated Press article: Abortion clinic owner target of probe, police noted that Arizona abortionist, John Biskind became angry when the clinic staff interrupted his lunch after they noticed patient, Lou Ann Herron's, condition was deteriorating.

Clinic employees told police she, ?suffered in a recovery room for three hours, bleeding heavily and complaining of numbness.?

The judge in the case, carefully instructed the jury that a finding of manslaughter would mean that Biskind "must have been aware of a substantial risk to his patient and consciously disregarded the risk" or that "Biskind's conduct would cause the death."

News reports indicated that the woman bled to death after Biskind punctured her uterus. Reports stated that Biskind was paged later in the day as concern about the woman increased.

Biskind responded, "Well, what do you want me to do? Call 911."

The reports went on to state that at one point Biskind testified to leaving the clinic to go to his tailor while the abortion patient lay bleeding.

Prosecutors also blamed Stuart-Schadoff, the clinic administrator charging that she didn't schedule a registered nurse for the clinic on the afternoon of the abortion patient's death and later delayed a call to 911 after Herron's condition deteriorated.

During an interview for 20/20's report, A woman?s right, a woman?s risk (03/8/99), Theresa Jensen, a Medical Assistant recounted the conversation in the recovery room between the staff,

"What should we do?"

And she said, "I don't know. What should we do?"

And I said, "I don't know either."

She told 20/20 that the patient was, "laying in a thickness of blood. Bleeding heavily from the waist down, to her toes. She lay there like that for three hours."

It was then, according to the police report, another assistant went to get Biskind, who was having his lunch. Jensen continued, "She came back to me, and she said, ?He's (the abortionist) mad. He didn't want to be disturbed.? And then, as the day went on, Lou Anne didn't get any better. When the last abortion was performed, the doctor punched out. He left."

Finally, another medical assistant insisted on calling 911, according to the police report, over the objections of the clinic administrator. The attorney for the woman?s family stated, "There's a hospital right across the street. They chose not to call the ambulance, not to call 911, when they knew she was in jeopardy."

Paramedics were ultimately summoned by clinic staff and stated that they found the woman lying on blood-drenched sheets. She had apparently already been dead for some time.

Abortionist John Biskind arrested

Prosecutors convinced the jury to convict abortionist Biskind of manslaughter because Biskind left the clinic and then refused to return even after being told that Herron had no pulse. Herron was left bleeding at the clinic for three hours and by the time paramedics were summoned to the clinic Herron had lost 2 to 3 liters of blood nearly the total of her body. Biskind was sentenced in May of 2001 to five years in prison.

Jensen told 20/20 that, "We were told that if anybody asks what happened to say that it didn't really happen, it's just a lie that the protesters made up."

Below is a portion of the 911 Call:

911 Dispatcher: 911. What is your emergency?

Clinic worker: Well, one of our patients is unconscious. She?s lost quite a bit of blood and she?s pale.

911 Dispatcher : Is she breathing OK?

Clinic Worker: No, she's not.

911 Dispatcher: OK, do you have oxygen on her?

Clinic Worker : No, we don't.

911 Dispatcher : Do you have oxygen available?

Clinic Worker : Hmm. Can we get it on? I don't know if we have any in there. Could we have you come to the side doors, right on 10th street, and try not to use no sirens?

I'm the doctor here, I'll make the decisions

An Alabama woman died following her abortion by abortion doctor Tommy Tucker. Canadian Business and Current Affairs report, Why doctors are fleeing the carnage (11/21/94), stated that Tucker canceled an ambulance that was summoned by one of his staff, and had the girl brought to a back room so she "would not disturb the other clients."

One nurse testified that she,

"sent for the abortionist to come back in the room. There was a lot of panic, a lot of confusion. We were running around, trying to resuscitate her, trying to do everything we could to stabilize her. And the other patients that were waiting to have abortions were in the very next room.

When the doctor walked in the room, he got angry, because we were making so much noise. He told me to get that patient out of the room and take her to the back recovery room so the other patients could not hear her or us. I took her to the back recovery room. I stayed with her and did everything I could do to stabilize her, but then she started bleeding.

She was bleeding uncontrollably, I couldn't stop it. I ran back to the doctor and I said, 'You've got to help me. She's bleeding and I don't know what to do.' He said to take her to the examining room, examine her, find out why she's bleeding and stop it. 'It's that simple.'

When the doctor found out that I called the ambulance, he was furious. He canceled the ambulance. He told me, "I'm the doctor here. I'll make those decisions. We cannot send this patient to the hospital in this condition. They'll hang us. Now try to stabilize her.And I did. I tried. At this point she couldn't talk. She was in such serious condition that all she could do was just look at me with very frightened eyes -- just look at me. And I tried so hard to help her. Blood was just pouring out of her like a faucet and I couldn't stop it.

So I ran back to him and said, 'Please help me. If you don't help me she's going to die.'

He said, 'Fine. Call the ambulance. I have a plane to catch.' And he left the building. I called the ambulance. It took twenty minutes for them to get to the clinic. During that twenty minutes I realized that I was not a doctor and it scared me to death to realize that I was put in that position -- that I let myself be put in that position -- to try and save a life that I was not qualified to try and save.

So they transported her to the hospital.

I felt relieved that she was just gone and that the responsibility had been taken off of me. I then received a phone call from the hospital, which informed me that she had died.

At that point I started having nightmares. Every time I would close my eyes I would see her face. The guilt and the anger that I was experiencing was overwhelming, it almost destroyed me."

Abortionist waits three hours to call ambulance

The Hartford Courant reported, abortionist Steven I. Weber was investigated when he waited three hours to call an ambulance for a patient whose womb he had accidentally punctured during a routine abortion at his office. The woman lost her uterus and nearly died.

25 minute delay for abortion ambulance:

According to the Los Angeles Sentinel?s article, Family Files Abortion-Related Wrongful Death Suit (11/8/95). The attorney of a woman, who died from an abortion she received in LA, stated "We are claiming negligence by the clinic staff who were not present when she began vomiting and ultimately delayed 20-25 minutes before calling for emergency help."

And don't bleed all over the upholstery:

The LA Times story, State board charges doctor with negligence in botched abortions (7-2-1993), recounts a lawsuit detailing the injury of a women who received an abortion from abortionist Saihd S. Halil alleged that when the patient began hemorrhaging after the botched abortion that Halil sent her to a nearby hospital by car, rather than ambulance. The doctor at the ER testified that that the woman should have been taken to the hospital by ambulance paramedics.

He stated that Halil's failure to call an ambulance indicates a "total disregard for the patient's life and safety."

yes. Let's keep abortion safe and legal. Ho-Hum.

Posted by: Charles at January 5, 2008 8:20 AM

I went to the link and the video isn't available any longer. Just like the comments said... :(

Cries and excessive bleeding, just another day

The Associated Press reported that a lawsuit filed against the Delta Women’s abortion clinic stated,

"Though she was bleeding and crying out in agonizing pain from O'Neill's botched procedure, O'Neill neither rushed her to a hospital nor called an ambulance for assistance."

The woman's mother later took her to a local hospital.

911 not called in abortion injury

In New York, a woman was rushed to the hospital after an abortion she received at a free standing abortion clinic, according to a report by the NY Daily News, A near fatal abortion botch (6/30/96).

Police show only an anonymous call was made to the police station, rather than 911, to report the woman’s need for assistance. Police point out that a 911 call would have summoned a fully equipped ambulance rather than patrol cars with no medical staff. One reason for this supposed mix-up is that calls to 911 are recorded and can be used as evidence in court.

Baby's head left inside woman

In an article titled, Woman dies after abortion; Moreno clinic doctor has been under probe (12/19/69), the Press Enterprise reported a 34-year-old patient underwent an abortion to terminate a 15- to 17-week pregnancy and that the abortionist, Bruce Steir, was unable to determine if he had removed the entire fetus.

He then allegedly discharged the patient without informing her of this fact or arranging appropriate follow-up care. Two days later, the patient was admitted to Physician's Community Hospital with a fever, severe abdominal pain and nausea.

Physicians discovered a perforated uterus and performed a hysterectomy. In addition, Doctors removed a fetal skull found protruding through a rent in the uterus.

OOPS!

Did that sound funny or was it just me?

While performing an abortion in 1990 on a patient "B.J." Missouri abortionist Scott Barrett perforated her uterus. Instead of calling an ambulance, Barrett carried B.J. to her car and asked the woman's friend to drive her to a hospital while a nurse held her head in her lap.

According to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (An abortionist’s trial of tragedy records detail botched operations that; finally brought state action 08/02/92) the state commissioner found that:

''The degree of damage that Barrett caused to B.J. was almost unheard of. Barrett was utterly oblivious to the fact that he was suctioning B.J.'s abdominal organs out of her body. Then, having nearly eviscerated his patient and with her clearly in critical condition, he sent her to the hospital in a private car during rush hour. By the time she reached the operating table, she was moments away from bleeding to death. A more egregious example of incompetence and gross negligence is difficult to imagine.''

Abortion patient screams in back of the office

According to Maryland Board of Physicians case # 2005-0499, in December of 2004 a 26-year-old woman came to abortionist Gideon M. Kioko for an abortion. .
There was a myriad of events that combined to make this the worst day of her life. First, there was no one other than Kioko was present for the procedure. Next, the electricity kept going on and off during the abortion.

At noon, the patient reported that she began to feel dizzy and hot and asked Kioko for her cell phone to call her emergency contact. Kioko refused to give it to her. The patient later began to bleed profusely and Kioko told her that he would have to "Cut the baby up" to get it out, but he was unable to get the baby's head.

Sometime after 2:00 pm, The patient then told abortionist Kioko that she could not breathe and she kept passing out, she asked Kioko to call 911. Instead of calling 911, Kioko called his wife into the clinic.

At 3:50 pm when the bleeding continued, Kioko finally called 911. When emergency officials arrived on the scene, they heard a woman screaming from the back of the office.

They told the board that:

"The woman was bleeding heavily and the baby?s head was still inside her. They reported seeing her naked from the waist down rolling back and forth on the table screaming. She was covered in blood, her legs were bathed in blood, and there were heavy streams of blood spurting from her vagina."

She was transported to a hospital and where she had to undergo numerous surgeries to correct the procedure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Safe and legal. Uh-hu.

Clinic owner kills woman with abortion

The Orange County Register printed an excerpt of an Orange County California grand jury hearing that outlines the prosecution's case against abortion clinic owner, Alicia Ruiz-Hanna. Hanna was charged with killing abortion patient Angela Sanchez during a botched abortion. Hanna was not a licensed physician, but she beformed the abortion on the unsuspecting woman anyway. This appeared in the 08/24/93 article, Clinic owner prevented 911 call, aide says.
As Sanchez lay dying in the next room, Hanna, wrestled the phone away from a receptionist who was trying to dial 911. Receptionist Irasema Mendoza testified:

"I told her to call the paramedics. I took the phone to call the paramedics but Alicia grabbed it away from me and hung up. She told me not to call them because I was going to get her into problems."

The women died at the clinic and when relatives of the dead woman arrived to pick her up, they witnessed Hanna stuffing the dead woman's body into the trunk of her car.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Court shuts down clinic, abortionist flees:

As several Los Angeles Times articles show, Handful of abortion clinics put poor at risk for the record (04/05/98) and Abortion patient’s death shows license system flaws (03/21/95), abortion will remain a place that attracts the worst in the medical field.

These articles use the case of San Diego abortionist Suresh Gandotra, who fled the country after the District Attorney filed manslaughter charges against him following the death of one of his patient’s to show just how dangerous walking into an abortion clinic can be.

What you don't know can hurt you, like the fact abortionist Gandotra had no hospital admitting privileges at any facility. Not that he would let a detail like that stand in the way of making a profit.However, you would think he would know where the hospital was located.

After he botched an abortion on a patient, Gandotra failed to immediately call an ambulance. In fact, according to the Medical Board's court filing, the abortionist asked for directions to the hospital by car, and planned on sending the patient in a car to the hospital despite her deteriorating condition.

He was told to summon an ambulance immediately. He tried to request a private ambulance, but failed so he finally called 911. Due to the abortionist’s delays, Paramedics didn’t arrive until over an hour later, at which time, they found the woman bleeding, in cardiac arrest and with no pulse. The woman bled to death.

Gandotra remains at large.

Heather,

wow, this is unbelivable. Why do these lousy creeps not even get help for the Mother after they messed up the abortion. It must take a cruel soul to be an abortionist.

Abortions are safe, right? That does not appear to be the case.

Heather:

People died from plastic surgery all the time as well.

People die from routine medical surgeries as well.

hi there midnite and jasper. midnite, I agree with you, but I think that most plastic surgeons would call 911 if they had to.

Also,

One of my mother's friends in high school died while getting her wisdom teeth pulled. He apparently had an adverse reaction to the anastisa (sp?).

Heather:

Not necessarily. A lot of plastic surgeons do their procedure in their office (mush like an abortion clinic does) and does not conduct said surgery in a hospital. I've heard many a stories where woman had botched plastic surgery in an office and the doctor did nothing to help b/c he did not want his malpractice insurance to go through the roof.

midnite, here is the difference. I have seen so much news coverage about botched plastic surgery. The media has no problem exposing such things, but you NEVER hear about these botched abortions on your local news. Why not?

Sorry about your friend. I hope you had a good New Year. I am having foot surgery on Monday.

jasper, It's because they only care about themselves and their money.

OB/GYNs are the most-sued physicians in any specialty. They pay the highest malpractice premiums of any specialty. That's because they're the worst practitioners in medicine.

If we outlaw pregnancy and childbirth, these quacks will no longer be allowed to prey on women.

Only people who hate women would want pregnancy and childbirth to be legal so that more women could be butchered by those quacks.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT OB/GYNs!! We are talking about abortionists!

Why doesn't the media ever talk about this? Don't we want the corruption exposed?

Um...a lot of OB/GYNS are abortionists.

Heather, what are the DATES of these incidents? I'm willing to bet that they're all very much apart.

Heather,

You make a good point. I've seen all sorts of coverage and warnings to the general public concerning checking a plastic surgeon's credentials and exposing the quakery and malpractice of those who have harmed patients. Great! I want to see this done whether its an oral surgeon, plastic surgeon, and yes, an abortionist.
Not too long ago we heard of a little girl who died in the dentist office. I don't know the details but I heard it was not proper monitoring. I wholeheartedly support a thorough investigation and whatever follow up legal action is deemed appropriate. The point is though, we HEARD about it.
Yet, we hear virtually nothing about abortion clinics. No TV exposure of malpractice, unsafe office practice, or mutilated and dead women.
When have you heard women advised to check the credentials of their abortionist or the people on his/her staff?
Several years ago it took an undercover operation by reporters to expose appalling malpractice and unsafe conditions in clinics that stood in some of Chicago's most exclusive neighborhoods.
Also, abortionists have the huge advantage of secrecy. The woman showing up at the abortion clinic is mainly concerned about one thing, not exposing the fact she is pregnant. However horrific her experience, she wants only to leave and put the experience behind her. These are not women likely to come forward and appear on "60 Minutes" or E!Television exposes.

Yeah, I see only one that happened in the same YEAR as another incident. Considering how many abortions happen per year, the percentage of those complications is totally insignificant.

Mary, An abortion clinic in my state was closed due to numerous health code violations. It only received about 5 seconds of attention on the local news. The abortionist almost killed a woman.

Laura,

I've posted before the reason OB/GYNs are sued is people see them as easy prey and think they're getting something for nothing from insurance companies that are bottomless pits of money.
Our society demands perfection, any child born with any anomoly must be the fault of the OB/GYN. Cerrebral palsy has been around since creation, yet OB/GYNs are sued when these children are born. No one is even certain what causes it. It takes a slick lawyer, a gullible jury, sympathetic parents, and a severly afflicted child to equal millions. I well remember the days when this was simply viewed as an "Act of God".
Modern technology is a double edged sword. OB/GYNs are now expected to have prophetic powers. Any problem at all will likely result in a lawsuit. I know an OB who performed an emergency hysterectomy to save a woman's life after delivery. She had placenta acreta. She tried to sue the OB. When the OB asked the lawyer to tell him what his other options were, besides letting the woman die, he had to drop the case.
The lawyer was so desperate to sink his teeth into this case, and likely saw millions and early retirement, that he wasted no time on any kind of research.

Yet, we hear virtually nothing about abortion clinics. No TV exposure of malpractice, unsafe office practice, or mutilated and dead women.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excuse me? Heather gets most of her little anacdotes from news stories. All of those cases were reported.

The only OB/GYN malpractice story I've heard about in the last three years was the whole Heparin incident. ONE story when SO MANY OB/GYNs are flaming incompetents and more suits are getting filed every day?

Shouldn't more of these OB/GYN stories be reported so that more women can make an informed choice about continuing a pregnancy? Their lives are in DANGER at the hands of these quacks!

Ohio Abortion Clinic Closed For Over A Dozen Health Violations
Cleveland, Ohio The Ohio Department of Health has ordered that a late-term abortion clinic close due to over a dozen code violations. The Center for Womens Health in Cleveland was informed that its license would not be renewed after inspectors discovered that the clinic was not meeting even the most rudimentary of standards, such as taking a patients temperature and blood pressure before risky late-term abortion surgeries.

Abortionist Martin Ruddock, who ran the abortion mill that would do abortions including partial-birth abortions through the second trimester of pregnancy, did not believe his clinic should have been subject to the state laws that regulate ambulatory surgical care facilities, even though his ads described his clinic as such.

Ruddock did not have an emergency transfer agreement with a local hospital, and endangered one woman with abortion complications when he had difficulty finding a hospital to admit her.

Ruddock?s clinic is one of nearly a dozen abortion mills to close across the country since June. Most were closed by various state authorities, which had uncovered violations that included the delivery and alleged murder of a live baby, workers aborting women without medical licenses, and the misuse of the hazardous abortion drug RU 486, among other charges.

The closure of Ruddocks clinic shows that the implementation of standards are effective at stopping abortion until it can be banned nationally. Standards are useful tools that are putting abortionist clinics out of business in droves,? said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman. ?As a result, our land is not only a safer place for women, but also for the child in the womb.

Arrogant abortionists, such as Ruddock, will never adhere to the laws because they somehow think they are exempt from the same rules everyone else must follow. Their unwillingness or inability to follow the law has become their undoing, said Newman.

Here is the story.

Erin,

Its likely you are seeing only what was reported. The woman or her surviving family members may want this kept quiet. These women are in a very compromised situation, a huge advantage to the abortionist.

I've posted before the reason OB/GYNs are sued is people see them as easy prey and think they're getting something for nothing from insurance companies that are bottomless pits of money.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...Or maybe they're just hopeless quacks who harm women and children EVERY DAY!
I'm sorry that you don't care about the lives of women and childrem!
(Dramatic chords: dun Dun DUN!)

I know lots of women who had their children murdered by Ruddock.

Um...a lot of OB/GYNS are abortionists.

Posted by: Erin at January 5, 2008 11:12 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not really. MANY GYNs have completely abandoned the OB business. It costs beacoup to maintain malpractice insurance:

Doctors getting out of the baby business
(2005)

LEE COUNTY— Having a baby is getting tougher in Southwest Florida. Many doctors are leaving obstetrics and fewer residents are choosing the specialty because of the skyrocketing cost of liability insurance as well as the fear of being sued for malpractice. Florida has some of the highest liability premiums in the country. Some local doctors have stopped practicing obstetrics and one local hospital stopped delivering babies altogether.

Michele Tiseo delivered her daughter Lauren nine months ago in Fort Myers, even though she lives more than 40 miles away in Port Charlotte.

"Once my water broke I said this is it. Then I got nervous. We have about an hour to drive, what if there was an accident on I-75?" said Tuseo.

It's something Tiseo never had to consider when her first child was born.

"Now 12 years later, every year fewer and fewer doctors are practicing," said Tuseo.

This time around, Tiseo didn't have much of a choice. Only three obstetricians deliver babies in all of Charlotte County

In Lee County, there are about 30 obstetricians, but with around 5000 deliveries every year, doctors are spread thin.

With skyrocketing liability premiums, it's only getting worse.

"Liability insurance in Florida is labeled as a crisis situation by the American Medical Association," said Dr. Richard Murray.

Obstetricians pay higher liability insurance than any other specialty.

Dr. Murray's premiums have skyrocketed 300 percent in the past 2 years and he's never been sued.

He's convinced the outrageous premiums are pushing doctors and residents away.

"New residents are not coming to Florida. We're graduating new residents but then they're leaving the state. The number one reason - liability insurance, it's through the roof," said Murray.

Add to that the booming population in Southwest Florida. More residents means more babies, but there aren't more doctors to deliver the babies.

In fact, along with losing doctors, there are fewer hospitals delivering babies. In 2003, Lehigh Regional Medical Center stopped delivering babies altogether. The threat of malpractice and the high cost of liability became too much.

The two doctors who did deliver at Lehigh moved to other local hospitals.

But other physicians are making the difficult choice to leave obstetrics.

"The awards have gotten higher, making the cost of insurance much higher, and given that, our premiums have significantly increased," said Dr. Mary Yankaskas.

After 14 years of delivering babies, those premiums became too much for Dr. Mary Yankaskas. With a heavy heart, she gave up that part of her practice.

"As premiums get higher, you'll have more people who are going to retire early or give up obstetrics early," said Yankaskas.

That's already happening. One in seven obstetricians has stopped practicing. Because of this, most doctors are hoping, if not pushing for change.

Amendment 3, which passed last November in Florida, limits how much lawyers make on medical malpractice suits. While doctors believe this could eventually help lower liability premiums, some lawyers think they've become an easy target.

"It's easy to sometimes point the finger at attorneys and say if they didn't sue so much, then our premiums wouldn't be so high," said personal injury attorney Michael Hornung.

Hornung says the blame should fall more on insurance companies, but also believes it's a balancing act between the cost of insurance versus the rights of patients.

"We want to keep the good doctors here and not make it cost prohibitive for them to practice, but we also want to make sure everyone has access to courts," said Hornung.

He also agrees everyone deserves access to a good obstetrician.

So as the problem grows, it will become more difficult for local patients to find care close to home - if at all.

"I'm very concerned. I'm concerned about my kids, who will deliver my kids' children. I don't know, it's a scary thought," said Richard Murray.

As for Michele Tuseo, her concerns are a bit more pressing.

"We just found out we're pregnant again," said Tuseo.

Luckily, her doctor, who also delivered Lauren, is still in practice, but it does mean Tiseo will once again, have to make the hour long trip to Fort Myers.

Out of each delivery, obstetricians pay more than 25 percent of their fees to insurance companies, whether they've ever been sued or not.

© 2007 by NBC2 NEWS. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

The feminists don't want you to know about things like this, but had Ruddock's clinic been bombed, you would never hear the end of it.

Mary, even so, consider the amount of women that have complications from abortion versus the number performed. Honestly, it's just a bad argument from your side. There are plenty of elective procedures far more dangerous than abortion. Now, if you want to stick with the "but a child always dies", that's fine. But it's no more dangerous a procedure than much anything else. I'm pretty sure that breast implants cause way more complications that abortions do.

There are plenty of OB/GYNs out there. Mine was the BEST!

Mine was also pro life.

Erin, you said that a woman performed your abortion. I wonder how many male abortionists molest their patients.

No more than in any other profession, heather.

Laura,

I have no idea what you listen to but I have seen and heard all kinds of accounts of lawsuits against OB/GYNs. I have seen no exposures of abortion clinics. Yes, Heather gets reports, mostly from pro life sources, but why hasn't the general public been informed and warned? I've seen all kinds of exposure on the risks of cosmetic surgery and the quacks unqualified to perform it. As I said, great. I want all this exposed, I don't care who it is.

About OB/GYNs, how many of these suits are dropped, as was the one I mentioned? I've read all kinds of accounts, and have been enraged by the gulliblity of juries and the greed of lawyers. I have read of valid suits, and have no objection where malpractice is truly an issue.

I would encourage any and every patient to check the credentials of their doctor, and yes this includes pregnant women.

By the way, we had a guy in our town jump off a neighbor's picnic table while drunk and snap his neck. Thankfully he fully recovered but sued his neighbors, the hospitals that treated him for free(!) and his doctors. This moron was awared 12 millions dollars. You see what I mean by gullible juries and slick lawyers.

And that doctor was such a sweet lady. Even though I was totally out of it, she talked to me the whole time, she smiled at me afterwards and touched my hair and told me that I'd done very well. She was a wonderful lady.

Erin,

You hear of the complications of breast implants, not abortions. I worked ER and surgery and have been involved in treating the complications of abortions that were not be reported as such. We treated the woman and she went home. I know of two that required surgery.
Women still make midnite visits to ERs Erin, you just aren't hearing about them.

Mary- so, there were hoards and hoards of women coming in with those kind of complications? Because to create any viable statistic, there would have to be a crazy amount of women making those 'midnight visits' to compensate for the thousands of women who have their procedures go off with out a single hitch.

Also, I can't remember the last time I read the paper and saw any kind of story that involved a complication from a breast implant.

Erin said, "And that doctor was such a sweet lady. Even though I was totally out of it, she talked to me the whole time, she smiled at me afterwards and touched my hair and told me that I'd done very well. She was a wonderful lady."

Was this doctor an abortionist?

I know a woman who is sterile d/t having 7 abortions. She cannot sue anyone. It was her choice to have them done. She doesn't discuss it because of shame and guilt. She feels stupid.

She performed my abortion, yes, Laura.

Erin, she had to be sweet. She took your money.

My friend was greeted by her male abortionist while up in stirrups.

Heather, but, I thought you said that all abortionists were mean and snarly and ignored their patients.

Shame and guilt keep these women silent.

Erin,

There was no where to report these statistics. I didn't get on the phone to some agency to report that Miss X showed up with post abortion complications. We simply treated the women. There is patient confidentiality. Also, I'm only speaking of one hospital, a hospital in a middle sized city. One can only speculate on the numbers in other hospitals. The statistics aren't likely to be found.

I don't know how you could miss all the exposes on botched breast implants and other cosmetic procedures. Keep a closer eye on TV listings. E!television has had them, as have the A&E channel. We certainly heard about the case of Ms.Donde West, the mother of rapper Kanye West.
Also, the late Elaine whatever who was a famous realtor in Beverly Hills who's face was mangled years ago.

Heather- my lady came in when I was in stirrups. But she sat at my side and explained the procedure again before she did anything. She was very amiable and sweet to me.

Yes. I did say that.

YIKES! Erin, so someone who GLADLY takes your money, dismembers a baby from your womb then pets you makes for someone who is "sweet".

Maybe it's time to re-examine your definition of what a "sweet person" is!

Heather, 11:55am

Imagine meeting your surgeon for the first time while lying on a procedure table ready to have surgery, unless of course its an emergency situation. Unheard of under any other circumstances and totally unethical.

Mary,
Yep! Totally unethical...what comes around goes around, I guess!

Come in for an unethical "surgery" and get an unethical "surgeon". Seems fair to me!

Laura- a woman who gently guides me through a surgical procedure, reassuring me, and then taking the time to personally address how I faced the procedure...yes. She was a wonderful woman and had a fantastic bedside manner. As I've said before, I had a 5 week pregnancy terminated. It wasn't a baby.

Erin 11:57

I'm sorry but I consider that totally unacceptable and an insult to your dignity. You didn't meet this woman, who was performing a surgical procedure on you, prior to your procedure and speak to her face to face? I thinks this was considerably disrespectful to you if she didn't.

Erin,
Yes it was a baby, and a very, beautiful baby at that! But keep lying to yourself if it makes you feel better.

Does this "doctor" send you CHRISTmas cards, too?

Mary- she made sure I was comfortable with her before she did anything. She made sure again that I was sure that I wanted to proceed, explained in depth the entire procedure, and was very honest about the whole thing. I liked her very much.

Greeted is stirrups? That is NOT acceptable.

Laura- I don't live in Iowa anymore. But hey, I wouldn't mind if the clinic had sent me a card. I'm sorry, but a 5 week fetus isn't a baby to me. Something without a central nervous system doesn't really qualify as sentient.

Erin,
Many child molestors befiend their victims, too. They explain to the child what they are going to do and tell them that they did good afterwards. Do they have good bedside manner & are they sweet, too?

A doctor has an obligation to treat you with dignity and respect. My OB sits down with me face to face before he even lays a hand on me. His nursing staff gets a full set of vital signs, and he collects a full medical history on me. He also has a femal nurse present in the room, before he performs a breast or pelvic exam on me.

*laughs* Wow, Laura. That's just...beyond. My surgeon was not a child molester. I'm sorry that you can't stand the fact that there was actually a nice lady that did my abortion, but it's true. I know it sinks your happy little 'all abortionists are scuzzy, molesting, dirty old men' ship.

AB, good point!

Good afternoon AB Laura -

The key word from Erin is amiable. Doesn't take much for a person to act that way. Anyone, even a abortionist can act that way. Doesn't mean that he/she is a "sweet person". A 'sweet person" doesn't take the life of innocent unborn children.

A sweet person? Nope. A greed filled monster.

Hello Tara & Heather!
Heather, I'll pray that your foot surgery goes well!

Tara,
AMEN to that!

Erin,
You missed the point...just because one "acts" as though they care about you doesn't mean they do. My point was that both treat the "victim" nicely to get what they want - self-satisfaction!

Tara- or maybe I was running out of synonyms. I also used the words 'fantastic' 'sweet' 'wonderful' 'gentle'...she was a great lady.

It's like a man who uses a woman for sex. "Oh baby, I love you." So easy to say, but 1/2 the time it's BS.

Also, I can't remember the last time I read the paper and saw any kind of story that involved a complication from a breast implant.

Posted by: Erin at January 5, 2008 11:46 AM
........................................

When has anyone read a news account of a pregnancy complication? "Woman has Heart Attack During Labor", "Woman Dies During C-Section", "Woman's Uterus is Ruptured During Delivery", are hardly breaking news.

Erin,
My ship didn't sink at all. ALL abortionists are the warts on the face of our society. They kill babies & profit from it. SICKOS...ALL of them!

How about the "woman beater?" Let me kick your behind, but I love you so much.

Hi Sally!

*waves*

Erin said, "Tara- or maybe I was running out of synonyms. I also used the words 'fantastic' 'sweet' 'wonderful' 'gentle'...she was a great lady."

-------------

Erin,
and you also said that you were really "out of it"

Laura- I felt that she was sincere. Honestly, that's what matters. What matters is that I feel cared for and comfortable during a surgical procedure. You know, most neurosurgeons and cardiac surgeon are notoriously egotistical, narcissistic...but if they've got a good reputation, do you really care?

anon was me.....

Mary Kay Laturno looked like a sweet woman. She's a pedophile.

How many dead hurting, dead women and dead babies is it going to take? How many do you need for "viable statistics"? Isn't just one, one too many?? I read all of the news items, Heather. Thank you for putting them out there. Even though one made me want to throw up. Shouldn't we all be sickened by the way these women were killed and injured?? I guess not.

Erin,
Well, I'm really glad that it was all about you! Too bad your baby wasn't able to feel the same way. YES.......BABY!

How many times can I write the word dead?! I meant hurting, dead women and dead babies...

Some people HAVE to SAY things to GET what they WANT. Erin, your abortion money probably bought her a new pair of shoes. Car note? She made money off of you. That's why she was nice. Bottom line. She cared not a wit about you.

Hi Carla! Excellent point. These women are so self-centered, they cannot grasp the concept of caring for others. I know that people can change, & I'm really glad that you did...by the Grace of God....

Your posts are always excellent!

Carla- no. Because every single surgical procedure carries risk. Heart surgery, a biopsy, a vaccine, people die from all of them. It doesn't mean you deny the right to those procedures to anyone.

Laura- yeah, the anesthesia completely warped me. I was almost asleep, and yet she still took the initiative to talk me through it. If she hadn't, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. But she did it anyway. She could have left the room afterwards without even acknowledging me. But she smiled at me and told me that I'd done well. That's a good doctor in my book.

Carla, you and I are right there. Same page! We are both sick to death over this. It's where we need to be.

Heather- you know, I pay my therapist $140 per visit. That's pretty dang ri-donk-u-lous. She makes money off of my PTSD. She makes money off the mental disorders of young people. I mean, tons of money. TONS. I guess no one should see a therapist, considering how rich we can make them.

Thanks AB,
I just don't get that they don't get it.

But then, I used to be like that too.
The Grace of God is right!
Pressing on toward the mark...

Erin, you paid her for a service. She owed you something. I'm assuming you received Versed. She was happy to get your money, and she had probably performed several abortions that week. Maybe she treated herself to a nice vacation with the blood money.

"But she smiled at me and told me that I'd done well."

OF COURSE SHE DID!!! She was VERY happy that you did what you did...every time a "patient" comes in to have their baby killed, she makes money. Yes, in her book, you did VERY well! She should have given you a big, mushy kiss as well!

Erin, you paid her for a service. She owed you something. I'm assuming you received Versed. She was happy to get your money, and she had probably performed several abortions that week. Maybe she treated herself to a nice vacation with the blood money.

Posted by: heather at January 5, 2008 12:34 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and your foot surgeon doesn't get paid? What a SAINT!

I PAY LOTS OF PEOPLE FOR A SERVICE. I'm paying my college for a service, I pay the pharmaceutical companies for a service, I pay my internist for a service, I pay my chiropractor for a service...do you really expect them to do anything for free?

If I had heart surgery there would be a "team" of specialists all ready to assist me IF there were complications of any kind. Pretty sure there would be all kinds of equipment, monitors.... I would be fully aware of what was going to happen because someone would have explained it all to me.
Someone who botches an abortion(alone, mind you)and then doesn't even call 911 when the woman is bleeding to death??!! Come on, Erin!

Carla,
Yep! I never understood what "when God takes the blinders off" meant until I came here. Some people are sadly in the dark! When the blinders come off, it's like a flood of wisdom, God-given wisdom, flows down on us. It's so hard for me to understand what people think, but then "there by the Grace of God go I" gets pounded into my heart. We can only pray that God will lift the blinders from their eyes, also!

Erin said "I PAY LOTS OF PEOPLE FOR A SERVICE"

Great! They deserve it! They are HELPING you...not killing someone in the process for their own, personal gain! There's a HUGE difference between these people and the MONSTER that you label "sweet".

Laura- she was helping me too. I didn't want to be pregnant.

Of course we pay doctors. They are there to heal us, and they DESERVE every penny. I hope my foot doc. treats himself to a nice vacation!! He rocks!

Carla and AB Laura, I used to be PC too.

But she smiled at me and told me that I'd done well."

OF COURSE SHE DID!!! She was VERY happy that you did what you did...every time a "patient" comes in to have their baby killed, she makes money. Yes, in her book, you did VERY well! She should have given you a big, mushy kiss as well!

Posted by: AB Laura at January 5, 2008 12:35 PM
------------------------------------------------------------ ROFLMAO!

I think I would have told her to "get the heck away from me!"

I am not clear as to what the beef is here. Is the problem with the city officials apparently being incompetent? Is the problem that PP is non profit? Are all non profit organizations prohibited in this particular zone?

Erin, "Laura- she was helping me too. I didn't want to be pregnant."

She wasn't helping you, she was just giving you what you wanted - your own self-centered desire.

She sure didn't help your baby.

She wasn't helping you, she was just giving you what you wanted - your own self-centered desire.

Posted by: AB Laura at January 5, 2008 12:55 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah! Every time I order from a menu, select clothing or buy furniture I'm acting on my own self-centered desire.
You do the same...

Laura- so be it. Me, or a non-sentient, unfeeling, piece of human tissue. Yeah...I'm going with me. Sorry.

Denial, denial.

Sally,
Here's a little background in a nutshell for you. Please understand, that BY NO MEANS am I sending you off to a PL website for any other reason than to help answer your question as quickly as possible.
:)

http://familiesagainstplannedparenthood.org/blog/2007/1219/motion-to-close-planned-parenthood/#more-172

Oh, I'll treat myself to the finer things in life, but I'm not going to kill anyone to get what I want.

Laura said, "Yeah! Every time I order from a menu, select clothing or buy furniture I'm acting on my own self-centered desire.
You do the same..."

But the difference with my self-centered desires, is that no one gets killed in the process. I simply do not put my desires above another's life...

Erin said, "Laura- so be it. Me, or a non-sentient, unfeeling, piece of human tissue."

I'm confused...who were you talking about, here?

Ever swat a fly or smush a bug? That bug probably had a greater range of physical sensation then a 5 week fetus.

Erin, 12:10PM

Under any other circumstances, other than emergency, this is totally unacceptable. She should have shown you the respect of doing that prior to you being set up for the procedure, with both of you sitting in chairs, talking to you face to face. The basic dignity you accord any person. When I worked ER we did our share of pelvic exams, and the doctor ALWAYS spoke with the patient first, then left the room as she undressed and we set her up for the exam.

Mary, that's the ONLY way I would allow myself to be treated. I guess abortion patients are sub human.

What to do about Heather? We have explained to her that lists of examples of bad practicioners do not prove anything, but she continues to post them.

I guess some people are so stupid that they cannot learn.

Somg, such as yourself. Stick around. I'll teach you a thing or 2.

Mary, I was in agreement with you.

Somg, would you care to try to defend these abortionists and their actions? Go ahead. I'll wait.

SoMg,
I've learned alot from Heather's posts, as did many others. It's the "stupidity" of pro-aborts that cannot see what a sham these so-called "doctors" really are. Her posts are just an addition of facts about these quacks.

Of course, I don't think you're stupid, it's just that you haven't taken off your blinders yet. When and if it happens, you too will see the light!

Shall we review more corruption?

Heather,
Yes. Let's! I think we need more TRUTH!

Stuart Sitzman - Just don't call me an abortionist

In the LA Times September 22, 1991, it was reported that Dr. Stuart Sitzman, a gynecologist who has performed abortions for his private patients before, told them he'd be happy to be quoted by name.

But, he requested,

"Just don't call me an abortionist"

Meet Finkel - Abortionist and sexual predator

On May 26,2004 abortionist Brian L. Finkel surrendered his medical license to the Arizona Board of Osteopathic Examiners ( Case # 3287 + 2989), after he was convicted of sexually assaulted several patients.

The arrest and court proceedings were covered by several news outlets, the Arizona Republic (several articles), the Phoenix News Times 8/28/2003, the East Valley Tribune 11/26/2004 and several others.

Here are some exerts from taped interviews with law enforcement from some of Finkel's abortion staff who were eye witnesses to some of these crimes (as printed in the Life Dynamics Newsletter entitled: Thirteen of Finkel?s victims were patients of Finkel):
Question, Would Finkel wake patients by placing his hands on their breasts

Answer, Yes sir, its true, thats true. Ive seen that?we?ve even told his wife.?

Question, ? Have you seen the ___________flicking??

Answer, ?I can?t lie, yes I have.? Another employee told investigators, ? I?ve saw him do the ______flick all the time. At the office we had a name for it.?

A third employee said, ?If she was attractive, he?d find a way to be alone with the patient.?

Finkel consistently denied these charges and said he was never alone with any of his patients.

Another employee said this, ?He?s like a monster?he told K.C.(employee) he?d pay to get her teeth done if she?d give him a **** (slang for oral sex).?

Abortionist Brian Finkel

The jury found that Finkel had either fondled the breasts or rubbed the genitals of the thirteen abortion patients.

One woman testified that she had awakened after the abortion to find Finkel lying on top of her groping her breasts. an article in theThe August 13,2003 East Valley Tribune, said the woman testified that on the day she had the abortion she, "remember waking up, opening my eyes, his hands were in my breasts groping me."

The Tribune goes on to report that the woman became alarmed when Finkel said he was going to touch her clitoris. She said she glanced at the female attendant who turned away. She stated that prior to that Finkel had thrown a gown at her and told her to undress. She said Finkel yanked the gown up to her throat when she had only pulled it up to her abdomen.

The September 3, 2003 edition of the East Valley Tribune (More women to testify in sexual abuse trial) states that at the time, Finkel performed 20% of the state's abortions. The women who testified against Finkel said that his examinations were unlike any other they had by a physician by touching them in places their doctors had never touched for that type of exam.

Another news report indicated that there were allegations made by one abortion patient of Oral sexual contact.

In an October 23, 2003, Phoenix New Times article entitled, Trial and Error, they reported that Detective Art Haduch wrote in 1999 of his interview with Karen Corbett, a previous medical assistant to Finkel, "Corbett told me that Finkel would particularly fondle the breasts of larger-chested women or women with breast enhancement. I asked Karen if she had ever been out of the room, and Finkel was alone with the patient. Karen said this happened numerous times."



Finkel during his trial
Photo: Jack Kurtz, The Arizona Republic

During his trial the Phoenix New Times ( No Choice, Scenes from a "clown show" -- the Finkel trial, 01/08/04) reported that one day in court, Finkel responded jocularly to a reporter's question during a recess about his plans for Halloween stating, "I'm going as a transvestite sex-crimes prosecutor."

The New Times also reported that during one court recess, Finkel looked at a woman who had been testifying against him, then whistled the melody to "If I Only Had a Brain."
In an October 5, 2006 article Finkel is quote as saying, "Physicians that abuse their patients in this state go to prison. I'm not going to prison, because I'm not doing anything wrong."

Finkel was found guilty in Marcopa County Superior Court of 22 counts of criminal sexual abuse Finkel was originally charged with 67 sex counts. Finkel is currently serving time in state prison.

One of Finkel?s victims told the paper that she, ?hopes he dies in prison.? Another victim stated, ?I could see that he wasn?t sorry for anything that happened.?

On December 14, 2006, the Phoenix New Times ran a follow-up report entitled, Hey Diddle Diddle, Abortion doctor Brian Finkel will remain in prison for at least 20 more years, after a recent appellate court loss. The story focused on a letter the New Times received from a cell mate of Finkel's, James Stites, who is serving a six-year prison sentence for attempting to molest a child.

"Since I've been in here," Stites wrote, "I have heard how he loved his job because he got to play with a lot of breasts and how he enjoyed rubbing their crotch. Now he's telling us he will be out on the streets in 2006 because the courts screwed up on his case. . . . Can you let me know if this is true or not because this is one sick son-of-a-bi*** and doesn't need to be on the inside."

Patient awoke to find abortionist raping her

In 1995, abortionist Lawson A. Akpulonu found himself in trouble. Akpulonu, 49 at the time of his arrest , worked for three abortion clinics, and according to the LA Times (LA Doctor’s license is suspended in sex case: 2/18/1995), was arrested while at work at one of the clinics, the Midland Medical Center in Culver City.

The LA Times reported that documents filed by the attorney general stated that a patient told authorities that Akpulonu performed an abortion on her in a Culver City clinic Jan. 28, 1995, and that while she was still under anesthesia after the procedure, the documents state that she "awoke to find respondent raping her. . . . Akpulonu gave (the) patient . . . a shot and she went back to sleep."
They also reported that, another patient said Akpulonu fondled her after he performed an abortion on her at a South Gate clinic Nov. 9, 1992. Another patient alleged that Akpulonu made sexual comments to her and touched her improperly during a clinic visit Aug. 2, 1994.

A March 18,1993 LA Times article entitled, State slow to discipline physicians, reporting on how slow the state of California is to discipline bad doctors stated that Akpulonu pleaded guilty to medical insurance fraud and in 1992 one of Akpulonu's employees complained to the Medical Board that the doctor did not sterilize his surgical tools and used untrained people to assist in operations. A January 31,1993 article said that Akpulonu had been convicted of threatening enemies with a loaded gun

In 1996, the Medical Board of California revoked Akpulonu's license.

Tommy Tucker - We're . . .the lowest echelon

Abortion doctor Tommy Tucker told the Atlanta Journal Constitution in a May 16, 1993 interview:

"We're perceived as being dirty, underhanded, the lowest echelon of the medical practice."

In 1993, Tucker told Time Inc:

"I wish I would never ever have to do another one. I don't like it. It's not fun. It's not like you're curing a cancer or fixing a broken bone. You're terminating a potential life."

I've killed my baby, they are right

American Medical News ran a story about the conflicts that abortion staff have. The July 12, 1993 article entitled, Abortion providers share inner conflicts, talks about one abortion clinic nurse who described what she witnessed in the recovery room after the girls had their abortions.

She stated that the abortion clinic patients would lie in the recovery room and cry and say, “I’ve killed my baby. I’ve killed my baby.” She went on to say, “ I don’t know what to say to these women. Part of me thinks maybe they are right.”

ZBA, take the permit away....
Waiting is such sweet sorrow.

Tina Welsh - No physician will work here

Tina Welsh of the Duluth Women's Health Center abortion clinic told 20/20 in a May 24, 1991 interview,

"In 10 years we have never had a physician from Duluth that has been willing to work here. And I went right down the list, about 27 physicians, in the immediate area of northern Minnesota and Michigan and Wisconsin

Abortion doctor was annoyed

One abortion patient recounts:

"I woke up in pain and crying in the recovery room. The doctor came in all annoyed and asked me "What are you still crying for?" He then told me that I cried through the whole procedure even under general anesthesia and that it was very distracting."

Source: AbortionTV

Cocaine, stalking - just another day

According to NY State Board of Professional Medical Conduct Case # BPMC 01-99, abortionist Daniel Holschauer had been treated for cocaine abuse and was reported to have lied on his medical applications about his troubles. Local news stated that he lied to officials at two hospitals when he applied for privileges at both hospitals, claiming he'd never had a problem with drugs or alcohol abuse. An article in the The Times Herald (01/06/01) stated that in fact, he'd been in drug rehab for cocaine addiction, which had cost him a job in 1988, and which was an ongoing problem. He was also charged with stalking abortion patients that he wanted to have sex with.

Abortionist calls patient 'lazy'

In an April 4, 1993, article, Legalizing abortion did not put the “butchers” out of business, the Pittsburgh Post- Gazette recalls a Chicago Tribune (10/22/91) report that at a license revocation hearing in October 1988, testimony revealed that abortionist Arnold Bickham had called the victim of a fatal botched abortion, Sylvia Moore, "lazy" because she failed to get up after receiving the abortion. It went on to report that Bickham pushed her out of his clinic in a wheelchair, despite her condition. She died at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center. Bickham never faced criminal charges in her death.

Abortionist not sympathetic

A women who had an abortion remembers:

"The doctor said only two things to me. The first was, "Thank God I have one that is not screaming!"

The second thing he said to me was, "You were barely six weeks along," and he left the room.

Source: Forerunner

*sigh* Are you done yet, heather?

I guess so.

I just wanted to prove my case. Abortionists are dirty old men.

You can protest all you want against abortion,
but nothing will stop it.You have the right
to be opposed to it,I would never deny you
that,and to express your opinions.But you do not have the right to try to stop women from
excercizing their right to choose.
Anti-choice religious conservatives have
the right to their religious beliefs and to
live their lives according to their faith,
but they have terribly unhealthy attitudes
to sex and the family,and totally unrealistic
goals and expectations.They want a country
in which there is no sex before or outside of marriage,no abortion,no homosexuality,no
pornography,no contraceptives,not even
something as normal and healthy as masturbation.
You want the government to censor what books,
magazines,newspapers,films,DVDs etc we read
and view.What planet are you living on?
You also want a world in which everybody
has big,contented families,watches G rated
movies and TV,and lives happily ever after.
What a lovely fairy tale.Please!!!!
There is no way to create an America like this,
and if the government tries to force the
country to be like this,the results will be
catastrophic.I am not antireligion;I don't
condemn anyone merely for being a Christian;
but God save America if the religious right
gets too much power.Soon Gays will be jailed,
even executed.We will be a police state as repressive as Iran,Saudi Arabia and North
Korea.What a nightmare!

*does a small victory dance*

Here it comes...

So are priests.

Either you can accept that generalization as acceptable in all cases where there have been a few incidents, or it's never applicable. Your choice.

Priests don't kill babies...

Heather -

Love the posts - The Truth does hurt doesn't it!

No matter how much we shed light on abortion, the more PCers put their heads in the sand nad get defensive. If anyone who was PC changes their mind, then that person is labeled stupid, uneducated, ignorant, delusioned and so on. Even when you read about abortionists who have changed sides ,tell the truth about the industry, they are viewd as traitors and need to be discredited or personally distroyed.

Yes! God Save America!!

Thank you for the discussion today! Actually if you are PC you are helping me. I will be speaking up and speaking out and come here to brush up on your "reasoning" skills. Indeed.

Robert, you don't know what you're talking about. Robert, who LOVES abortion? Irresponsible men!!

Good grief, why do you guys always have to change the subject?? WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PRIESTS! This is a PL blog, and we are here to discuss abortion.

Priests don't kill babies...

Posted by: AB Laura at January 5, 2008 1:47 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

They wouldn't have anybody to molest.

Heather,
Kudos to you for understanding Robert's rant! All I heard was blah, blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah!

Tara, thank you!

......and, "what a nightmare"

Robert is ridiculous.

Heather, if you start a debate with a challengable premise, I can challenge it. You're saying that all abortionists are dirty old men because a few of them have molested or assaulted their patients. I'm saying that all priests are dirty old men because a few of them have molested or assaulted the children of their congregation. Either the basic premise of the generalization is correct and applicable in all situations, or it isn't.

Heather, you wrote: "Abortionists are dirty old men."

That's wrong. Right-to-life Republicans are the dirty old men. Go back and reread when I posted some of their names.

Clinic employees fired for reporting abortionist

In 1990 the Miami Herald interviewed former employees of the South Florida Today?s Women?s Medical Center abortion clinic.
The employees told the newspaper that they were fired when clinic owner Vladimar Rosenthal heard that they were on the phone complaining to the National Abortion Federation (NAF) about the conditions at the clinic. Rosenthal's clinic was reportedly a member of NAF at the time.

Employees told the Herald that Vladimar, the owner (a male doctor) and Hill, the male nurse anesthetists were often alone with the female patients. When the state inspected the clinic they found several revealing photographs of females in the possession of the male nurse at the clinic.

Employee, Denise Fong Choy told the Florida Department of Professional Regulations (case # 89-010853) investigators that she was hired as a counselor at the South Dixie Highway clinic. She said she was fired after one and a half years of employment after becoming very concerned about the liabilities for doing certain procedures without licensed personnel in attendance.

She called the National Abortion Federation and was overheard by someone at the clinic. She claims that when Rosenthal found out about the call, he fired her.

Neat Rodriguez was also an employee of Rosenthal's at the Today's Women abortion clinic. She was NOT a high school graduate and had been hired by Rosenthal to in her words, "do everything" at the clinic.

She was also overheard complaining to the National Abortion Federation about Rosenthal and she claims that is why he fired her as well.

A few? *blows water through nose*

Abortionist: sex, rape, and hatred

One of California’s biggest sexual misconduct cases against an abortion doctor, might indicate that gynecologist Ivan C. Namihas had a hatred of women.

In March 1981, Roberta Ward, underwent a hysterectomy performed by Namihas. The operation went well, but a few days later the patient's sutures tore open. Namihas put her under anesthesia and sewed her up. A few days later, the stitches tore again. This time Namihas, seemingly agitated, redid the stitches -- but omitted the anesthetic.

"It was excruciatingly painful, but he finished so quickly I didn't have time to do anything," she says.

When Ward went in for a final checkup, she suddenly realized the examination was anything but routine. She says that when she was alone with Namihas, her feet in the metal stirrups, Namihas commented that Ward's husband would "appreciate" his handiwork because he had "sewed me up tighter."

Then the doctor began to fondle her, Ward says. "I thought, 'Do I yell? Do I kick? My feet are up in these things.' So I laid there like a corpse, thinking, 'It's going to be over.' It seemed like an eternity."

Ward tried to take action against Namihas with the state medical board, but the complaint she filed never seemed to go anywhere until Kathleen Schmidt took over the case.

After interviewing Roberta Ward in 1981, Schmidt had no doubt that Ward had told the truth, however Schmidt needed additional witnesses to procede. Six years later she got the break she needed when she overheard another investigator discussing a sexual misconduct case;and mentioned the name Namihas.

The patient, April S., claimed to the investigator that during a pelvic exam, Namihas had fondled her sexually. This complaint stalled as well as Namihas managed to convince two investigators that she had misunderstood a common medical procedure.

Then in 1990 a former girlfriend of Namihas's, Jeanette Jacobs filed a complaint. Jacobs stated to the medical board that Namihas had gotten her pregnant, then performed an after-hours abortion on her without adequate equipment.

The LA Times reported that Namihas allegedly impregnated at least two of his patients, and that he told one woman, whom he treated for more than 10 years, that he became a gynecologist so he could vent his anger toward women.

A former employee said that Namihas "seemed to get some perverse pleasure" from inflicting pain on patients and several women told the LA Times grisly tales of enduring excruciating procedures without anesthesia. Another woman said that she, "felt he had problems with women in general because he talked about how much he hated his mother and bad relationships he'd had with girlfriends and his wives."

Still another said, "He told me the reason he became a gynecologist was because he hated women and he could use a knife to cut them.”

Dozens of women complained to state medical authorities that Namihas had fondled, masturbated or otherwise sexually abused them. Many of the alleged instances of abuse dated back to the late 1960s and continued through 1992, they said.

In a 1993 Primetime investigation several patients shared their horrors:

* "The examinations would be without gloves. It was my first gynecologist that I ever went to. I didn't know that they were supposed to use gloves. I know that now."

* " He wanted to be my first sexual experience, to make sure that it was done correctly."

* "And he wanted me to sit on his lap and give him a return demonstration so that he knew that I knew how to masturbate."

Kathleen Jewel Elliot wrote this letter to the Orange County Medical Association in 1973.

"During the examination of the pelvic region, he began massaging the erogenous zones of my vagina, telling me to close my eyes and relax. He also used foul language. I have no idea at all what can be done, if anything. At least you will have this on record in case you receive other complaints."

In some of the treatments, the indictment alleges, Namihas performed painful laser surgery on patients and billed for the procedures even when test results and biopsies came back negative.

When state medical authorities revoked Namihas' license in May, 1992, more than 200 women came forward and said he abused them.

Officials of the California Attorney General's office have described Namihas as "a predator in a white coat" and called his alleged transgressions "the worst case of sexual abuse by a physician in California history."

Court documents filed by the attorney general allege that he:

* Made one of his patients pregnant and then performed an abortion on her without adequate equipment and safeguards.

* Aggressively assaulted and kissed a hospital employee and had her fired when she reported it.

* Boasted of his sexual prowess and had "physical encounters" with a nurse while a patient was in labor, thus "abdicating his responsibility" to the patient.

* Performed a dilation and curettage on a woman without anesthesia, an act the attorney general called "cruelty, plain and simple."

* Taught a patient how to masturbate, then told her to go home and think of him while she masturbated.

* Induced the same patient to perform oral sex on him.

* Exposed his penis to a patient.

* Harassed a woman "for being in labor for 18 hours."

In the June 1997, US Attorney's Bulletin (Volume 45, Number 3) California Assistant Attorney General Jonathan S. Shapiro states, " The term 'abuse of patient trust' must have been coined for Dr. Ivan C. Namihas. Arrogant, cruel and greedy her carried out a particularly cruel form of fraud against his victims."

He also pointed out that after abusing his patients and destroying medical files, Namihas moved to Las Vegas, Nevada and might, "still there living in his mansion n the 15th hole of a private golf course, but for the courage and persistence of some of his patients."

On July 3, 1992, the Medical Board of California revoked Namihas' license
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heather, I'm being generous saying a few about the catholic clergy too.

A few? Let's take a closer look, shall we? IT SHOULD NOT BE THIS EASY FOR ME TO POST ALL OF THIS CORRUPTION!!