Here are the Iowa caucus final results, from the Washington Post.

The big story last night for Republicans was the turnout of Christian conservatives. See the quote of the day.

A split between social and fiscal conservatives has emerged, with the former largely supporting Huckabee and the latter Romney. For now, social conservatives have shown more muscle.

That said, there are concerns with Huckabee's fiscal conservatism. Rush Limbaugh is incensed at comparisons of Huckabee to Reagan, with valid examples.

Richard Viguerie, author of Conservatives Betrayed: How George W. Bush and Other Big Government Republicans Hijacked the Conservative Cause, called Huckabee a "Christian socialist," according to CNSNews.com....

I have gone back and forth. While Huckabee is the best of all leading contenders on the Life issue, I share the fiscal concerns. I've even switched my vote when considering my state's February 5 primary. But I awakened this morning with the question to self, "Who would I trust most with the Life issue?" And it's Huckabee. So for me, it's going to be Huckabee, despite his other political flaws.

The big story last night for Democrats was Obama's big win and Hillary's big loss, which Rush, who called in to Fox, called a "devastating and humiliating loss... the worst night of her life...."

UPDATE, 9:40a: Regarding the chart of caucus votes, while the Iowa Republican Party releases the actual number of caucus voters, caucus voters, the Iowa Democratic Party "releases an estimated number of delegates to the state party convention that each candidate will receive, based on their proportional support in the caucuses," according to the WP.

For me, the best part of the night was seeing the Queen Bee denied her crown.

Mary -

I couldn't agree more with you!

Am I reading this right? Obama got less than 1000 votes? In all of Iowa? With 100% of precincts reporting?

Kristen,

No, I think that may be the # of precincts he won but I'm not sure. I know it's not the actual vote number. The democrat primary in Iowa is different than the republican side (Repubs count by actual votes).

Okay, I thought I had to be wrong.

I agree with you Jill on Huckabee.

I wonder how long Obama can continue to dodge any serious questions.

While I'm happy Huckabee won Iowa, I too have started to have misgivings over some of his economic policies, as well as his switch on immigration. I hope McCain picks up New Hampshire, knocks Romney out, and then we could have a race between McCain and Huckabee. That, at least right now for me, would be my preferred November ticket.

Also, it's great to see that Hillary not only lost Iowa, but came in third. I don't think she ever considered the possibility of anything less than 2nd.

Kristen, you caught something I missed. Republicans and Democrats count differently in Iowa. I'll post a clarification.

According to WP, Democrats "release[] an estimated number of delegates to the state party convention that each candidate will receive."

Yes, that split has always existed and only rears its head at election time but, the social Christians have long been the quiet force behind the success of the Republican Party.

Rush falls squarely on the side of the fiscal/immigration conversatives along with most other radioheads and in my opinion, has never given the social Christians their due.

My prediction is that whoever the social Christians get behind will be the one that wins the election in 2008, just like we did in 2000 and 2004.

Actually, Hillary has 175 delegates, Obama 75.

You have to keep an eye on the superdelegate race. Hillary won't do THAT well in New Hampshire, South Carolina and Florida, but "Tsunami Tuesday" is @zz-deep in populous Hillary Country:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4060224&page=1

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4060224&page=1

Yikes, it's too early in the morning to look at pictures of Hillary.

come on Jasper, say it with me: "President Obama"

I promise, it won't be nearly as bad for you as the last 7 years have been for me.

and I think we can all rejoice in Rudy's 6th place finish.

I'm out of here, have fun today.

Heather,
LOL! I can't agree with you more!

Hal,
Rudy who?

Laura,

Could you please clarify your post? Superdelegate race? (sincere here)

Are you saying Iowa's not that big a deal compared to the other primaries?

Even EDWARDS beat Hillary in Iowa (biggest story for me!)...ROFLMAO!

Oh, happy Friday!!!

Jill,
I see how you arrived at your conclusion.

Florida has some time yet, but at the end of the day, it's going to be for me whoever is going to defeat the Democratic donkey.

I love the spin on Hillary's defeat! I was watching CNN last night and this morning and the downplay of her 3trd Place finish was just staggering. The pundits trying to say this defeat is not a big deal, and that she will get the nomination in the end, like it is a guarantee.

But the most intersting point from Iowa was that the majority who voted for Obama was all about achnge, not electabilty. He's farther to the left then Hillary (if you can believe that), and he didn't do squat as Sentator from IL. As was stated last night, he might have a hard time in the general bc he realy doesn't have a voting record, has done little in the Senate, and he is way to the left of the average American voter.

Laura,

Could you please clarify your post? Superdelegate race? (sincere here)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Read the ABC article I posted, they explain it better than I could.
In these small states, just fine just to place or show - only a few are winner-take-all. At this point the "Superdelegates" pretty much fortell your future, and Hillary is WAY out ahead.
(I take back what I said earlier about Hillary in New Hampshire. One poll in New Hampshire has her almost 10 points ahead of Obama...)

Hey, Tara!
Happy New Year....I've missed you!

This is only the first step for the Obama campaign. Everyone was predicting Hillary.

The big buzz was that this was the largest democratic turnout, and specifically a number of young people in record numbers. The fact that he gained the votes of many Independents says a lot about his ability to cross party lines.

"The big buzz was that this was the largest democratic turnout, and specifically a number of young people in record numbers."

PIP, please stop, you're scaring me. LOL

Last night on fox they broke down the voting into who voted for who...a HUGE number of young people voted for Obama. I would imagine that will play out everywhere.

Hillary is playing to women over 50. Obama has the youngbloods. I think he'll pull this off.

Hi AB Laura,

Happy New Year to you, and I've missed you to!
Hope all is well with you. Yeah, I can't belive that Edwards beat her to. I can't imagine how mad she and her cronies are feeling today. Obama that little whipper snapper!!:)

Analysis
Poll results show Obama's rhetoric appeals to young voters

Barack Obama played the establishment outsider card and won in Iowa. Mark Tran analyses the trends shown by the first real polls on the Democrat and Republican candidates in their race for the oval office

Friday January 4, 2008
Guardian Unlimited

It never hurts to run as an outsider determined to shake up the established order in campaigning for the White House. The formula worked for Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and the current incumbent, George Bush. Even Bush Sr sought to paint himself as a man of the people by eating pork rinds, although he was an establishment figure down to his fingertips.

By following the same script Barack Obama triumphed in Iowa last night, beating John Edwards and humbling Hillary Clinton into third place. Obama said his message of hope and change resonated with young people and sparked a record turnout that heaved him to victory.

Article continues
A detailed breakdown of the vote from MSNBC (both Democrat and Republican) bears this out. Obama trounced Clinton among young voters who turned out in droves for the 46-year-old senator from Illinois. Obama won 57% of the 17-29 age group, compared to only 11% for Clinton and 14% for Edwards. In the 30-44 age group, the figures were 42%, 23% and 21% respectively.

Older voters (44 to 65-plus) actually outnumbered younger voters in Iowa, but Obama benefited from the large turnout of the youth vote. There may be a lesson here for Clinton: concentrate on getting out the grey vote.

The picture looks even tighter when the vote is broken down by gender. Obama won 35% of the male vote, Edwards 24% and Clinton 23%. Among female voters, Obama also won the lion's share - 35%, compared to Clinton's 23% and Edwards' 23%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections08/story/0,,2235467,00.html

Carder, 11:14a: Don't get me wrong. Whoever wins the Republican primary, aside from Giuliani, will get my support.

PiP/Hal: Just let Obama win the Democrat candidacy. Just let him.

*eyes squinting narrowly*

Then it would get personal. The chatter about his radical pro-abort stance would crescendo.

mk,I have read the same thing. We have talked about this at Obama HQ. We need to inspire these young voters to actually vote, in order to achieve success, but at the same time we should work on the demographic that Hillary has going for her.

jasper, LOL

Jill, if you had to pick a democrat, who would you pick?

Also Jill, if Guiliani for some reason does get the primary, what would you do? Not vote?

PIP - I think the HUGE mistake that Hillary made (amongst plenty of others that eliminated her from my list of possible candidates) is how she took the low road in attacking her fellow democratic running mates so quickly, rather than focusing on the idea of an end to the trends of the Bush Administration. So many people, especially centrists like you and I, are so sick of the politics as usual BS, moreso than we are sick of one particular party. Barack appeals to the young and independent because he hasn't started playing that game (only time will tell if he sticks to that, but I do have hope)

While the showing in Iowa is certainly not telling of the nation, the INCREDIBLE turnout of youth and independents should be striking to everyone. Also, when looking at Hillary's lead in the polls, consider that the youth and independent voters are probably quite underrepresented by the type of polling done before elections. So I am hopeful that her numbers in NH are inflated by the fact that a HUGE population of Barack's supporters may not be represented.

To me, electing Hillary would be just like electing Bush, just on the opposite end of the political spectrum. The LAST thing we need is another president more than half the coutnry hates.

and Heather - I have to say, there are PLENTY of things you can pick on Hillary Clinton about other than her appearance, or Jennifer Anistons, or any other woman who you've insulted on the basis of her physical appearance. Its childish, crude, and frankly - it makes it harder to take anything you say seriously when you just resort to insulting women's looks anytime you can't think of something intelligent to say. For someone who considers herself pro life, I would think you would realize the importance of a woman's self esteem and the HUGE role it plays in her making smart decisions for herself. When I was working with the girls at the School for Pregnant Teens in Harlem, every single girl had her own story, but the one consistent factor was low self image, low self worth, the feeling that sex and/or having a boyfriend is the only thing that makes her feel beautiful. I ask that everytime the first thing that jumps in to your head is an insult towards a woman's appearance, you consider the impact of your words as if you were saying it to her face.

PiP, there is no Democrat I would pick. They're all bad, just some are worse.

If Giuliani wins the primary, I won't vote for him. I'll vote on the rest of the ticket, just not the presidency.

Amanda, the pundits are saying, and I agree, that Hillary's big mistake was running on the mantra of "change." She and her husband had 8 years in the WH and are part of the appeal for real change. The onus there is not just on GWB.

Amanda,
I'm in total agreement with Heather, here. Beauty comes from the inside, and Heather was in no way saying that she's ugly on the outside. Hillary's pro-death stance is what makes her devastatinlgy ugly...at least to me, and any picture of her reminds me of death. I don't think Heather is out of line, or that shallow for that matter....

"She and her husband had 8 years in the WH and are part of the appeal for real change."

I agree there. As I said in another post, shes just as much a part of the big political machine that myself and plenty of others are sick to death of - regardless of where on the spectrum they may be.

"Heather was in no way saying that she's ugly on the outside"

Oh come on. Read her comment again. Do you HONESTLY believe that wasn't just a crude insult at her looks? LOL. And remarking about how Jennifer Aniston doesn't look like a movie star and mentioning someone calling her homely had to do with inner beauty too, right?

Jasper, take a look at Mike Peters, today's Wa Post:

People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.

. . .

Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced -- by beating the daylights out of the accused.

Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.

This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to "solve" crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.

Obama had his work cut out for him.

He responded with an all-out campaign of cajolery. It had not been easy for a Harvard man to become a regular guy to his colleagues. Obama had managed to do so by playing basketball and poker with them and, most of all, by listening to their concerns. Even Republicans came to respect him. One Republican state senator, Kirk Dillard, has said that "Barack had a way both intellectually and in demeanor that defused skeptics."

The police proved to be Obama's toughest opponent. Legislators tend to quail when cops say things like, "This means we won't be able to protect your children." The police tried to limit the videotaping to confessions, but Obama, knowing that the beatings were most likely to occur during questioning, fought -- successfully -- to keep interrogations included in the required videotaping.

By showing officers that he shared many of their concerns, even going so far as to help pass other legislation they wanted, he was able to quiet the fears of many.

Obama proved persuasive enough that the bill passed both houses of the legislature, the Senate by an incredible 35 to 0. Then he talked Blagojevich into signing the bill, making Illinois the first state to require such videotaping.

Obama didn't stop there. He played a major role in passing many other bills, including the state's first earned-income tax credit to help the working poor and the first ethics and campaign finance law in 25 years (a law a Post story said made Illinois "one of the best in the nation on campaign finance disclosure"). Obama's commitment to ethics continued in the U.S. Senate, where he co-authored the new lobbying reform law that, among its hard-to-sell provisions, requires lawmakers to disclose the names of lobbyists who "bundle" contributions for them.

Taken together, these accomplishments demonstrate that Obama has what Dillard, the Republican state senator, calls a "unique" ability "to deal with extremely complex issues, to reach across the aisle and to deal with diverse people." In other words, Obama's campaign claim that he can persuade us to rise above what divides us is not just rhetoric.

Amanda,
Like I said, when I see Hillary's picture I cringe...I see death...I NEVER see beauty. She is one of the most "ugly" people to me on the face of this planet. (sometimes I even see two horns protruding out of the sides of her head!)

As far as your question, I'll let Heather respond....

Hillary is ugly. There. I said it.

Amanda, don't expect an apology!

Amanda, very good points!

Jill,
"PiP, there is no Democrat I would pick. They're all bad, just some are worse."
Well duh, you will not vote for a democrat, but which one would you want on the primary ballot? Just evading the question is not fair. You have to have a wish, because the one that wins the primary has a good chance of being the next president. If you HAD to choose a democrat primary winner, who would you choose?

Lol Heather.

Face it. People in the public eye are always under the microscope, and we have freedom of speech in this country. How many comedians have made cracks about a fat actress's weight? The audience explodes with laughter. I have heard Conan make fun of Hillary's looks. I laughed my butt off. She wants to send innocent children off to slaughter? She is the ugliest woman I have ever seen.

heather, no need to apologize to me. You're only disgracing yourself by taking such a childish road to make your points. Why dont you stick your tongue out and say "neener neener!" while you're at it?

PIP - Ive gathered from my limited exposure to hardline conservatives that they'd like to see Hillary get the democratic nod because she is so polarizing even amongst the democratic party that the chances of her beating a white male candidate are slim to none (with the slim being closer to none). While thats not the best approach to the democratic process, the hardline libs are doing the same thing when they cheer on a guy like Huckabee in hopes of him knocking Romney out of contention.

Heather,
I totally agree!

I think we need a list of do's and dont's for the way PL'ers, Christians, etc. are supposed to act, think & what they are supposed or not supposed to say. I'm a bit confused, but if I had this "list of rules", maybe it would clear things up for me and make me a better PL'er?

Amanda,

Huckabee is a-OK with me if he runs, same with McCain. I want Romney out, not only because he may be the next Republican president, but he may dupe people into actually believing his BS and be the next George Bush. I hope we get the best Republicans up there, so I can live with myself if they win.

heather, no need to apologize to me. You're only disgracing yourself by taking such a childish road to make your points. Why dont you stick your tongue out and say "neener neener!" while you're at it?

Well, why don't you write a few scathing letters to Letterman, Leno, and Conan? How about Howard Sterns? Do you feel as outraged when he speaks HIS mind? He doesn't bite his tonge when he makes fun of people. Calling women "butter faces" and using the "n" word as he pleases.

AB, I'm human. I'd also like to know how I'm supposed to act.

Who says I haven't? I hate Howard Stern, and Jay Leno and Dave Letterman are about as funny as cancer. Conan I adore, and I VERY VERY rarely, as a regular fan, hear him making mean spirited personal insults at people's LOOKS, except for his own.

I just think in a forum like this, there are more intelligent, mature, and respectful ways (respect for yourself included) to get your point across, and to represent your side of a debate with eloquence.

There is something about the exchanges between Heather and Amanda that I am finding extremely funny.

Agreed PIP!!

As a lifelong Massachusetts resident who actually voted for the guy, I can say whole-heartedly, the man is ALLLLLLL talk and hair product.

And the fact that he's a republican has nothing to do with it... the best governor of my lifetime, BY FAR, was Bill Weld... a centrist Republican, just like Romney *used to be*.

Amanda, do you still work at an abortion clinic?

Yeah, and people take his convenient conversion seriously! And I'm like, even I can see through him, how come all these people can't?

Jill, I'd still like an answer!

Everyone else feel free to answer as well, I"m dying to know. If you had to pick a primary Democrat, keeping in mind this may well be your next president, who would you pick?

I have never worked at an abortion clinic. but good try on changing the subject.

For the Gazillionth time... I was a student intern, never paid a dime, and had nothing to do with abortions. I ran prenatal education courses in and outside of the Brooklyn Planned Parenthood for pregnant teenagers and at-risk younger moms.

=)

Amanda, CHANGING WHAT SUBJECT? Weren't you the one who said that someone vandalized your car?

Amanda, weren't you the one who said that some of the girls asked you to be there while they had their abortions performed?

Now who's changing the subject?

A student intern at a Planned Parenthood....LOL! Talk about having "respect" for yourself.
pot, meet kettle!
:)

PIP, I could never vote for a prochoicer now that I am prolife. If I was still a prochoicer, I would probably vote for Obama. I would never vote for Hillary(if I was still prochoice).

Of 91 bills sponsored by Obama in the US senate, only one passed.

Maybe he is just more persuasive in Illinois.

Amanda, you also said that you were present during the abortion procedure. So, you stood there and you watched a child being killed.

"If you had to pick a primary Democrat, keeping in mind this may well be your next president, who would you pick?"

Zell Miller.

What does that have to do with ANNNNNYTHING we have been talking about??

Holy crap did that come out of no where. Hahaha.

Yes - my car was vandalized when I was interning there. Two of my tires were slashed in broad daylight. (that has WHAT to do with the elections or you making fun of peoples looks??)

Yes - I did contraceptive consultations with some very young teens who came in for pregnancy tests. Over the course of my 6 month internship, two of them decided to abort, and asked me to be with them during the procedure. (that has WHAT to do with the elections or you making fun of people's looks??)

Zell MIller is not a true democrat and he is not running. Try again jasper.

But LOL that guy is a character.

Amanda, you are a liar!

Changed my mind. The only Democrat I would vote would be.......PIP.

aww, shucks ;)

NEWSFLASH, Amanda has been here before. She was present during a few abortion procedures, but she likes to make pro lifers look bad every chance she gets. Broad daylight? PP generally has excellent security. What happened?

Pip,

I really like Bill Richardson. He is a great governor with good executive experience and a smart guy. I wish he were doing better in the polls. He doesn't have the backing of the major political machinery like the others do. No offense to you, but Obama's backers give me the creeps. How can a freshman senator get all that financial backing without totally selling out? You gotta wonder.

I'm a liar now?? What? What are you even accusing me of lying about? LOL

Wow... talk about left field. This is just a bizarre exchange...

Don't worry, I'll save you the trouble, I'm also incredibly ugly!

=)

Hal,

I read the article about Obama, yes, he seems like a good politician and a likeable guy who is inteligent. That's not my issue with him, my issue with him is where he is on abortion and how he voted on Jill's bill (Born-alive act).

Awwww heather, why so defensive?

Why do you need to tell everyone I've been here before, what difference does that make at all?

As for my vandalism incident, we've gone over this before. Planned Parenthood in Brooklyn NYC does not have a parking lot - most places in NYC don't. Its right in downtown Brooklyn. Security at the center has no jursidiction or control over what happens on metered parking spots 2 blocks away. Now you're just being plain silly, because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Hey PIP - I'd throw in a vote for you too dude =)

I figured as much:] Okay, gotta go.

Amanda,
You brought up the whole "having respect for yourself, thing"...which has everything to do with Heather's comments to you.

BTW, if you worked at an abortion clinic, I think you're pretty ugly, too (on the inside)!

She stood by as children were slaughtered.

Haha. If thats what you need to convince yourself .... be my guest.

In the midst of keeping a full time job, earning my Bachelors Degree, and funding my trip to distribute antibiotics in Africa with a group of Methodist missionaries, volunteering to teach pregnant teenagers about the importance of breast feeding, nutrition, and other things that empower them to become strong parents clearly indicates a total lack of self respect and inner beauty.

=)

""If you had to pick a primary Democrat, keeping in mind this may well be your next president, who would you pick?"

geez, I've been thinking about this PIP and I really can't think of anybody because they're all pro-aborts. Ok, let's say they were pro-life...How about Joe lieberman? if not, maybe Joe Biden (alough he does tick me off alot).

Well, that's nice if you're doing good things, but assisting in an abortion is atrocious. You would have to be a monster.

BTW, Ted Bundy did a few nice things too.

Yup, so did Hitler.

And plenty of wonderful, kind people have had abortions. What's your point exactly?

Kind people don't have abortions.

But LOL that guy (Zell Miller) is a character.

Ha! PIP, no doubt...gotta love it.

Doug

*waves at Laura* I'm pretty much a sweetheart.

*waves back @ Erin*

I know....people can change!

Of 91 bills sponsored by Obama in the US senate, only one passed.

Maybe he is just more persuasive in Illinois.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2008 1:55 PM
-------------------------------------------------

He didn't do anything while he was a Illinois Senator either.

Tara,
Yeah, I can't remember what it was that he did, but I remember he ticked off alot of African Americans in Illinois for breaking a "campaign promise" when he was running for Senator...I can't remember what it was, though. But they were steamed!

I agree we should not attack personal appearance, though I wish this concern was more two sided.
I recall only a deafening silence, most notably by feminists, when women accusing Clinton were ridiculed about their looks (Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky), had their mental stability questioned (Kathleen Willey), and were publicly reviled and ridiculed as liars, trailer trash, and psychotics.
I was quite surprised to hear ardent feminists argue they didn't believe Paula Jones because she was "homely". Excuse me ladies, but isn't one of the tenets of feminism that a woman's physical appearance is never an issue where sexual harassment and assault are concerned and its sexist to suggest that it is?

Mary -

You are so right. If they were coming out against a Republican you bet that the feminists would have been all over it. NOW and their elk would have been all over tv telling the world how wronged these women were, and what kind of punishment needed to be dished out. But, if you disagree with their idea of "feminism", then they will try to discredit and destroy you. Feminism at it's best!

Tara,

While I agree with what you said, I couldn't help laugh...we all make typo's, but sometimes they're "perfect"...

NOW and their "elk"...

Huckster shouldn't get to comfortable. Hillary beat him in total number of votes and she got 3rd. I think the change is coming.

how do you know Peach, I thought Dems didn't reveal actual votes in Iowa caucases?

Ummmm, let's see. They have the total number of caucus goers...and the percentages of who voted for who....that is how I know.

Ok I was looking the total number of caucus goers..

Yea, she did. Scary thought.

BTW, Ted Bundy did a few nice things too.

Heather - the real deal is "Al Bundy," though, he of "Married With Children."

He was played by the immortal Ed O'Neill, and back in the dim and distant past Ed lived two houses up the street from me, in Youngstown, Ohio. He's 13 years older than me, so I was just a punk kid when he was in High School, but I knew him and he was a nice guy.

Doug

lol Amanda, maybe I should run, I"d get at least 2 votes! Maybe I'd tie with Richardson?

jasper, why Biden, may I ask?

Jill, I'd still love an answer!

BTW, Ted Bundy did a few nice things too.

Heather - the real deal is "Al Bundy," though, he of "Married With Children."

He was played by the immortal Ed O'Neill, and back in the dim and distant past Ed lived two houses up the street from me, in Youngstown, Ohio. He's 13 years older than me, so I was just a punk kid when he was in High School, but I knew him and he was a nice guy.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at January 5, 2008 12:08 AM--------------------- Doug, thanks for the reminder, neighbor. I knew a guy who lived in L.A. He managed a bar, and Ed was a frequent customer. Joe told me that he was a real jerk and a tightwad:[...I guess he thought he was hot stuff, but his career seems to have bit the dust.

Maybe he started out being "a nice guy," but stardom may have gone to his head. Joe said that Ed would actually sit in the bar and wait for someone to recognize him. He was actually waiting for someone to buy him a drink because of "WHO" he was. He was Al Bundy, after all. It comes as no surprise. Joe also said that Clint Eastwood was a fantastic customer, and he was a good tipper. Ed never tipped:-{

"Joe also said that Clint Eastwood was a fantastic customer, and he was a good tipper"

Clint is great, I love his westerns and dirty-harry movies....

"jasper, why Biden, may I ask?"

because of his foreign policy experience. Which he has alot of.

Heather, that's interesting, and too bad about Ed, then.

He was probably 20 when last I saw him. Good football player in High School. But Geez - he was in 260 episodes of 'Married With Children,' so for him to be a tightwad just sounds crazy to me.

He's worked quite a bit since "Married' but yeah - definitely a step or two down after those heights.

As for never tipping - I do not see how someone can be that way.

Doug

Doug, *shrugs* I don't get it either.

Haha--just b/c Hilary lost this battle doesn't mean she's lost the war. And this is probably not the worst night of her life...it certainly isn't as bad as the night that Rush (the ultimate hypocrite) succumbed to drug addiction. So he really shouldn't be talking.

Also, I don't get how all of you call yourselves Christian and "pro-life" yet are so anti-immigrant. Which of our families did not start out as immigrants? Which of our families did not suffer? I love how so many "pro-lifers" have their panties in a twist over the death of a fetus (that they would not themselves adopt or provide programs to care for had it been born) but they are eager to send back so-called "illegals" to starve in Mexico. Are they not people too? Is their life not as valuable as anyone's? This is why I like the Catholic stand on life. It is consistent. And so is Huckabee's. Life is life is life and if you respect it how could you denigrate some desperate, poor people to second class status? I'm so sure that's what Jesus would do. Shame on you.

And Heather--PP has excellent security? False. THey usually are present in terrible neighborhoods and often have no security.

Doug,

As for never tipping - I do not see how someone can be that way.

I guess it's just their "desire" versus your "desire"...he just doesn't desire to to leave a tip. No big deal. Some do, some don't. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong. And the law is on his side. It doesn't recognize tipping bartenders as a "must"...

WHAT? HE DOESN'T TIP? *turns into the she-Hulk* ERIN SMASH!!!

HaHa,

YOWZER! That's a lot of assumptions for someone who has never even been on this board before.

Who is against immigration? If it's done legally, I don't think anyone here is against it. And most of us have never given our opinions either way on how we feel about illegal immigrants.

Who wouldn't adopt or help a woman that carried her baby to term? You should read what we say before you cast your unfounded aspersions. Almost every pro-lifer on this board contributes in one way or another towards women in crisis pregnancies.

As for the Catholic stance, how is it different from the Christian stance? Aren't they the same thing?

What would Jesus do? Well, first he'd have all the facts before he put words into peoples mouths.

Asking people to enter our country legally is not denigrating them. It's affording them a chance at a better life.

If 25 orphans showed up on your doorstep tomorrow would you take them all in? No questions asked? Or would you prefer to adopt orphans on your own terms? Would you send them back onto the street, out in the cold, tell them you don't have the necessary provisions (rooms, money, food) to care for ALL of them? What kind of a person are you?
You call yourself a Catholic? You respect life, all life? How many illegal immigrants and orphans are living in your home right now? What are you doing to help woman in crisis pregnancies?

Sheesh.

Regarding Obama

I found a quote by a Catholic hero of mine, regarding the very issue of voting and abortion, and I thought it would be relevant to share with you...

Cardinal Joseph Bernadine of Chicago, an opponent of abortion, cautioned Catholics against turning abortion into a single voting issue: "Our moral, political and economic responsibilities do not stop at the moment of birth. "Those who defend the right to life of the weakest among us must be equally visible in support of the quality of life of the powerless among us: the old and the young, the hungry and the homeless, the undocumented immigrant and the unemployed worker. ... Consistency means we can't have it both ways."

And so, in the spirit of that urging by Cardinal Bernadine, I support Barack Obama with the belief that the value and dignity of human life DOES NOT END at conception, and I believe when I look at the issues holistically, Barack Obama is the best man for the job.

And so, in regards to health care, the issues in war torn areas like the Middle East, the Congo, and Sudan, as well as a host of other issues like gun control, taxes, social security, the environment, civil rights and immigration, Barack Obama is the man that is most in line with my ideals, with my morality.

I hope that helps you understand why I support the man. I assume we will disagree still, but for me, I just can't vote or not vote for a candidate on one single issue...

"It's not about taking the right stand on issues. It's about choosing to stand in the right place. With those on the margins, those whose dignity has been denied. To choose to stand with the poor and the powerless and the voiceless. To choose to stand with the easily despised and the readily left out. To choose to stand with those whose burdens are more than they can bear. To stand with the demonized so that the demonizing will stop. And so you stand against forgetting as you leave this place, that we belong to each other." Father Greg Boyle, S.J.

http://pjfurlong.blogspot.com

HaHa,
I'm with mk on this one. I am not against immigration at all, I'm against ILLEGAL immigration.

And, maybe it's just me, but these illegals coming across the border sure don't look like they're starving to me! If this was the case, I'd be more than happy to send over some rice or whatever to Mexico to help feed them, as would many other Americans. I just don't think "starving" is why they are coming over illegally. We have some illegals at our work that have been working there for years, stockpile their $$$, then head back to Mexico for a "better life". Explain that!

In regards to Huckabee, I like Mike too! But I just noticed, and if someone can shed some light on it, I'd be glad to hear it, but when the cameras are on him, they always seem to catch Norris & his girlfriend or wife - the blonde - (not sure which one) in the background. They always seem to steer clear of Huckabee's wife. In fact, I'm not too sure I've ever heard Huckabee's wife talk!

Patrick,

3. If I think that a pro-abortion candidate will, on balance, do much more for the culture of life than a pro-life candidate, why may I not vote for the pro-abortion candidate?

If a political candidate supported abortion, or any other moral evil, such as assisted suicide and euthanasia, for that matter, it would not be morally permissible for you to vote for that person. This is because, in voting for such a person, you would become an accomplice in the moral evil at issue. For this reason, moral evils such as abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide are examples of a “disqualifying issue.” A disqualifying issue is one which is of such gravity and importance that it allows for no political maneuvering. It is an issue that strikes at the heart of the human person and is non-negotiable. A disqualifying issue is one of such enormity that by itself renders a candidate for office unacceptable regardless of his position on other matters. You must sacrifice your feelings on other issues because you know that you cannot participate in any way in an approval of a violent and evil violation of basic human rights. A candidate for office who supports abortion rights or any other moral evil has disqualified himself as a person that you can vote for. You do not have to vote for a person because he is pro-life. But you may not vote for any candidate who supports abortion rights. Key to understanding the point above about “disqualifying issues” is the distinction between policy and moral principle. On the one hand, there can be a legitimate variety of approaches to accomplishing a morally acceptable goal. For example, in a society’s effort to distribute the goods of health care to its citizens, there can be legitimate disagreement among citizens and political candidates alike as to whether this or that health care plan would most effectively accomplish society’s goal. In the pursuit of the best possible policy or strategy, technical as distinct (although not separate) from moral reason is operative. Technical reason is the kind of reasoning involved in arriving at the most efficient or effective result. On the other hand, no policy or strategy that is opposed to the moral principles of the natural law is morally acceptable. Thus, technical reason should always be subordinate to and normed by moral reason, the kind of reasoning that is the activity of conscience and that is based on the natural moral law.

4. If I have strong feelings or opinions in favor of a particular candidate, even if he is pro-abortion, why may I not vote for him?

As explained in question 1 above, neither your feelings nor your opinions are identical with your conscience. Neither your feelings nor your opinions can take the place of your conscience. Your feelings and opinions should be governed by your conscience. If the candidate about whom you have strong feelings or opinions is pro-abortion, then your feelings and opinions need to be corrected by your correctly informed conscience, which would tell you that it is wrong for you to allow your feelings and opinions to give lesser weight to the fact that the candidate supports a moral evil.

http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm

Mary - I appreciate your agreement - as for your comments about Clintons mistresses/scandals in regards to feminists, I think you're speaking about a number of extremists - I certainly remember what you're talking about, and agree - but I don't think those types of people really represent the average American woman.

To me, anyone who has worked with teen girls and has any sense of perception at all has a very clear idea of the short and long term damage caused by low self esteem and low self image. I'm not saint. I'm no angel. But this is one area in which I am completely unwavering - no matter who its coming from and who its aimed at or why, bashing a woman's physical appearance as a means of attacking her as a person is shameful and childish, and just shows anyone reading/listening that the attacker has NOTHING more intelligent to say.

Amanda,
Honestly, get over it already! Do you really think that Hillary's self-esteem or self-image will be hurt by Heather or anyone else thinking that she's ugly? If Bill's infidelity didn't do it...nothing will! That woman is too ice-cold!

BTW, these teenagers need to be taught to be victors, not victims. Our society is WAY TOO MUCH overwhelmed with people putting the blame on other people for their feelings. No one can cause people to "feel" a certain way. One only decides for themselves to "feel" a certain way.

Amanda, move on!

Amanda, what are your thoughts on Bill Clintons string of affairs?

Heather, what are your thoughts on Randall Terry's string of affairs?

Gee, they were wrong!

Amanda 12:27PM

Its nice to see you here again. I was pointing out in my post that there was a deafening silence from major feminist organizations and leaders, the very people you would think would speak up for these women. However, these groups had a vested political interest in Clinton, and that took precedence over protecting the interests of any individual woman. Paula Jones was shocked groups like NOW never came to her defense. I agree these groups do not represent the average American woman though the media too often treats them like they do.

In all honesty, I consider Bill and Hillary two sides of the same coin. I think they share the same ambition for power and control, and have always needed each other to obtain it.
Bill is a master politician, charming, manipulative, and a sociopath. He is brilliant.
Hillary lacks his political savvy, likability, charm, and is a narcissist. People think she's brilliant.

My assessment for what its worth.

Mary,
HillBilly!

LOL laura. That should be their celebrity-merged-name.

Mary,

Are you a psychiatrist?

Georgie 3:10PM

Nope. I've done extensive research on personality disorders, being they run in my family, and can spot one when I see them. By the way I have read that Hillary is indeed thought by some to be a narcissist, long after I figured it out. Also look up sociopathy, Billy boy is a classic. Actually, the two disorders are closely related.
Anyway, if you want to be informed google these disorders, there's a wealth of info. You'll be better informed than most psychiatrists.

PIP,
here's another one....Hillabeast (inspired by Heather)

AB Laura,

Good one. How about Billary?

Mary,
LOL...oh, the sky sure is the limit with he-she, huh?

haha yeah!

Thank you Mary...

I was on the younger side when that was all going on, but I do remember hearing more quips about Paula Jones' nose, Monica's weight, and the overall unattractiveness of her friend that ratted her out (cant think of her name now and can't be bothered to look it up), as opposed to the fact that they were all women who knowingly slept with a married man. You'd think that would be disgraceful enough that there would be no need to focus so much on what they LOOKED like??

I think the reason the hardcore feminist organizations went after them with the same virulence as the main stream media is because defending them would force them to admit something extremist feminists hate to admit: women, no matter how independent and progressive, tend to be attracted to men with power and influence, and thus prone to doing foolish and thoughtless things like carrying on affairs with them even if they're married. Not a lot of women like to admit this, even though I've found it to be true a WHOLE lot of times.

I mean, this is true even with men and women my age. When a guy cheats on his girlfriend, the girlfriends first instinct is to go after the girl, call her a slut, call her ugly - etc etc, because for whatever reason, thats easier than blaming the guy who was actually cheating on you. I have a guy friend who's wife was cheating on him with one of his friends. When his other friends found out, they went after HER... not the guy who was sleeping with his buddy's wife.

Why is this? Wish I knew... but its silly....

Thank you Mary...

I was on the younger side when that was all going on, but I do remember hearing more quips about Paula Jones' nose, Monica's weight, and the overall unattractiveness of her friend that ratted her out (cant think of her name now and can't be bothered to look it up), as opposed to the fact that they were all women who knowingly slept with a married man. You'd think that would be disgraceful enough that there would be no need to focus so much on what they LOOKED like??

------------------------------------------------------------- How about the fact that Bill was a MARRIED man who chose to sleep with them??

Linda Tripp.

How about Bill's baggy eyes and pot belly? Did anyone ever mention his homely appearance?

Amanda, you just put all of the blame on the women!!!!!

I mean, this is true even with men and women my age. When a guy cheats on his girlfriend, the girlfriends first instinct is to go after the girl, call her a slut, call her ugly - etc etc, because for whatever reason, thats easier than blaming the guy who was actually cheating on you. I have a guy friend who's wife was cheating on him with one of his friends. When his other friends found out, they went after HER... not the guy who was sleeping with his buddy's wife.

Why is this? Wish I knew... but its silly....

Posted by: Amanda at January 6, 2008 2:42 PM----------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is this? Um, because of what you've just said. You just let BILL CLINTON OFF THE HOOK!

Uhhh... Heather, Im not sure what you're responding to here, because it certainly isnt anything I said...

I think its pretty clear I was saying that its silly to place ALL the blame on women all the time in cheating situations, and wondering why both genders go after the woman involved, even other women - when someone cheats, instead of evenly distributing blame.

"As for never tipping - I do not see how someone can be that way."

MK: I guess it's just their "desire" versus your "desire"...he just doesn't desire to to leave a tip. No big deal.

MK, it is indeed a big deal to the bartenders.
......

Some do, some don't. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong. And the law is on his side. It doesn't recognize tipping bartenders as a "must"...

Heh, it doesn't pay to not tip if you go in a place more than once.

The media is just unrelenting in attacking Mitt Romney, this is very unfair. Even his fellow Republicans are attacking him...the next President that is.

He's just the pick of the week Jasper... they'll move on to someone else next week. And so it will go... in circles, getting more and more vicious, until election day. Just like when Obama first ran every other week their was some BS pundit spouting out nonsense about his name and his "Muslim upbringing", and then a couple weeks ago, attacking Huckabee for pulling that ad at the last minute, and before that, it was John Edwards for running despite his wife's illness, so on and so forth, and the Law and Order guy for being an actor, and for not leaving his bus enough. At this rate, we'll all be so sick of hearing about ALL of the candidates that we'll vote for... i dunno... Stephen Colbert?

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who bases their vote on what they've heard about the candidate on any of ridiculous news shows is short-changing themselves in taking advantage of their right to vote.

Yea, maybe, but it's been no-stop for Romney.

Nobody comes off as clearly and concise as Romney when expressing their point.

The other guys are mainly buddies - McCain and Thompson. Huckabee is new but those two seem to like him. But I think those three really don't like Romney.

Plus, the MSM (90% liberal) is in love with Obama, the bias is sickening.

I still dont see as a MA resident you could support Romney jasper, he did nigh nothing good for the state, and was only in it so he could enter the '08 presidential bid. Even the super-conservatives in my family (my grandfather excluded) exceedingly dislike him.

And as for romney being clear and conicse, he's really been neither when it comes down to the issues. Each time an election has come up, hes slowly moved his viewpoints from one end to another to get elected. Hes smart enough not to be sudden, and to be clever about it, but he is willing to move back and forth anytime it will personally suit him (as is the case with far too many politicians)

Romney is the Hilary Clinton of the republican camp in more ways than one, his attack ads and the fact that hes very easy to dislike/not trust for starters.

Doug,

MK: I guess it's just their "desire" versus your "desire"...he just doesn't desire to to leave a tip. No big deal.
*
MK, it is indeed a big deal to the bartenders.

You mean like it's no big deal to the unborn when their lives are snuffed out...I thought it all came down to desire?

"Romney is the Hilary Clinton of the republican camp in more ways than one, his attack ads and the fact that hes very easy to dislike/not trust for starters."

I disagree Dan, he balenced the budget 4 yrs in a row and made insurance affordable for everyone.

and those are not attack ads, simply contrasting his views with other candidates is not attacking anybody. tough for McCain, he can't run from his record.

No, he deliberately goes after McCain alone, comparing himself with other candidates would include his own stances/votes, and in better form, with other candidates. His ads are no better than Hilary's and in some ways, seem more vicious.

MK: I guess it's just their "desire" versus your "desire"...he just doesn't desire to to leave a tip. No big deal.

"MK, it is indeed a big deal to the bartenders."

You mean like it's no big deal to the unborn when their lives are snuffed out...I thought it all came down to desire?

No, I didn't mean that. However, you have a point - had your or my mom chose to have an abortion, there never would have been a "you" or a "me" as far as knowing or caring about anything. Multiply that times a thousand, and it's still nothing compared to the suffering that one child all-too-frequently undergoes on earth.