"Well I obviously don't believe that. I think that it is ending a potential life but it is not a living, breathing, conscious human at this point. To me murder has to be an act against an independent being that can function on its own. If the people who say that would spend time in a clinic and see what actually is the result of an abortion, what comes out of the uterus, I believe they would have to rethink it themselves, and many of them would decide it isn't murder."

How insane. These people have to convince themselves that abortion isn't murder by the most pathetic means available. Of course the fetus is living; what kind of a doctor is she??? I guess when you're living to kill people, you don't really know how to define life.

To me murder has to be an act against an independent being that can function on its own.

Newborns can't function on their own..toddlers can't function on their own..hell up until the teenage years..you're basically doing everything for the kid except digesting their food for them and crapping it out.

It has gills and a tail, but you don't know if it will be a fish or a horse or cow or a human.

Last time I checked, humans couldn't birth horses or cows, or even fish. Sheesh and this lady's a "doctor?" I'm not even through nursing school yet and I know humans can only birth other humans.

If it's not living then why do they have to kill it?
At the end of the first trimester I am usually throwing up all day, everyday. I am aware that I am pregnant. Physically.

It cannot feel pain, or think, or have any sense of being at this point.

She also has a phenomenal memory. I can't remember what it felt like to be a 12 week old embryo, can any of you? I mean it's rather incredible really. She doesn't know that humans birth humans, that newborns are not independent, that life is happening from conception (I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be "becoming" anything if it was dead) and yet she knows what a 12 week old embryo is capable of thinking and feeling. No one else does. This debate has been going on forever, and yet she, knows.

You can't distinguish with the naked eye at this point.

I can't distinguish the ebola virus with the naked eye either but...

The woman is not aware of it physically; she cannot feel any movement.

Oh never mind, I see now...it's a baby when the MOTHER can feel it. Now see, back to that ebola virus...You can't feel it either. Or see it. And I'm pretty sure it can't feel or see or hear...but I'm pretty sure it's alive and I'm pretty sure, small and insensible as it is, it can wreak quite a bit of havoc.

If the people who say that would spend time in a clinic and see what actually is the result of an abortion, what comes out of the uterus, I believe they would have to rethink it themselves, and many of them would decide it isn't murder.

And I'm pretty sure that the if people who say it's not murder, would spend time in a clinic and see what actually is the result of an abortion, what comes out of the uterus, I believe they would have to rethink it themselves, and many of them would decide it was murder...

And looky there...she's all for people LOOKING at the gruesome, grisly pictures...or better yet the real thing...

The article states that she will only perform abortions up to 14 weeks. Why?

Does a 15 weeker all of a sudden have more of a right to live than a 14 weeker??

What is her reasoning for this decision?

The article states that she will only perform abortions up to 14 weeks. Why?

Does a 15 weeker all of a sudden have more of a right to live than a 14 weeker??

What is her reasoning for this decision?

I wonder what this vile wench thinks of all the former abortionists who have seen many abortions and decided that it is in fact murder? I wonder if she has seen the Meet the Abortionists video?

By the way, this is a great website showing the truth about the Weitz Company that is building the killing center in the Denver area.

http://www.theweitzcompany.com

I'm confused.

How is a developing human being like a house being built? Can't she come up with a better scenerio than comparing a human being to cement, wood and glass?

If people ignore the empty lot that someone poured cement on it will stay an empty lot.

If people ignore a fetus in the Mother's womb, it will develop and become a human being.

How is that possible? Because a human being is alive at the moment of conception (proved by medical science over and over again) and will grow and mature. Well, that is as long as one person considers the human being worthy enough to live.

Let us PRAY for all those who accept and/or revel in the fact that abortion is common. Lord, change their minds and hearts. Amen.

@Jill: Be sure to watch "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit" next Tuesday 10PM EST/9PM CST. I believe it is going to have to do with embryos...specifically left-over embryos at a fertility clinic. You may be interested.

I think that is the first abortion proponent that is all FOR pro-lifers using graphic signs! She should totally post pics in her yellow page ads and billboards - she'd make a ton of money off people who saw them and changed their mind, right?
::or maybe not::

Ah, Rae, the night of the March for Life... :( I'm having pizza and beer with friends.

Dude, they have pizza and beer at March for Life? Maybe I should reconsider my stance, lol.

If only I lived closer to the east coast...

Anyone read Lime 5? Telling aborting women to "shut up and lie still" didn't end with Roe v. Wade; neither did women dying shortly after being "helped" by abortionist profiteers.

Yes, it's murder, even by her criterion; if the babies killed by legal abortion in, say, 1973, were still alive, guess what? They wouldn't still be fetii; they'd be 35-year-old adult human beings...etc., etc. If you kill any unborn child, you ipso facto kill the toddler, the child, the teen, the adult, etc. that that victim would've, should've and could've become later.

Murder: the deliberate, premeditated taking of an innocent human life. It's not complicated.

An interesting double standard. Wicklund is inspired to perform abortions after visiting a thug who told her to "shut up and lie still". Well the guy may not have been very nice but at least Wicklund survived, which cannot be said for the pregnant girl her grandmother "helped".

I think I might get this book just to examine the incoherent ramblings of someone in such deep denial. But then again, this crazy-pants would make money off of me...so maybe not.

@Jill: Alrighty, it'll probably be re-shown on USA that weekend if you get cable. I'll watch the episode and let you know how it is and whether it's about what the preview said it was going to be about.

Here's a prescription for Dr. Demolition:

Try telling yourself "If it looks like a human and sucks its thumb like a human, then it must be a human." three times a day.

>>"The young girl that was pregnant, and that my grandmother helped, died."

Um, not to burst Susie's balloon or anything, but if she died, GRANNY WASN'T ANY FREAKING HELP.

Um, Susan, left to itself that house won't get built. Left to itself that fetus will continue to grow and thrive.

HOUSES ARE NOT ALIVE, Susan.

Jill, I haven't read the book and I'm in Korea where I can't get ready hold of a copy. Can you give me all the info on the girl Wicklund's "helpful" granny killed so I can add her to the Cemetery of Choice?

"Um, not to burst Susie's balloon or anything, but if she died, GRANNY WASN'T ANY FREAKING HELP."

Yeah, seriously!

Hmm, even other abortion doctors and nurses aren't as deluded as this one:

Dr. David Brewer talks about his first experiences with abortion. More from him can be found later in this section.

"I can remember...the resident doctor sitting down, putting the tube in, and removing the contents. I saw the bloody material coming down the plastic tube, and it went into a big jar. My job afterwards was to go and undo the jar, and to see what was inside. I didn't have any views on abortion; I was in a training program, and this was a brand new experience. I was going to get to see a new procedure and learn. I opened the jar and took the little piece of stockingnette stocking and opened the little bag. The resident doctor said "Now put it on the blue towel and check it out. We want to see if we got it all.' I thought, "that'll be exciting-hands on experience looking at tissue.' I opened the sock up and put it on the towel, and there were parts of a person in there. I had taken anatomy, I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and an arm, I saw some ribs and a chest, and a little tiny head. I saw a piece of a a leg, and a tiny hand and an arm, and you know, it was like somebody put a hot poker into me. I had a conscience, and it hurt. Well, I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head and so forth, and I turned and said "I guess you got it all.' That was a very hard experience to go through emotionally."
David Kuperlian and Mark Masters, "Pro-Choice 1990: Skeletons in the Closet" New Dimensions Magazine October 1990

"I was for abortion, I thought it was a woman's right to terminate pregnancy she did not want. Now I'm not so sure. I am a student nurse nearing the end of my OB-GYN rotation at a major metropolitan hospital and teaching center. It wasn't until I saw what abortion really involves that I changed my mind. After the first week in the abortion clinic several people in my clinical group were shaky about their previously positive feelings about abortion. This new attitude resulted from our actually seeing a Prostaglandin abortion, one similar in nature to the widely used saline abortion. . . this method is being used for terminations of pregnancies of sixteen weeks and over. I used to find rationales. the fetus isn't real. Abdomens aren't really very swollen. It isn't 'alive.' No more excuses...I am a member of the health profession and members of my class are now ambivalent about abortion. I now know a great deal more about what is involved in the issue. Women should perceive fully what abortion is; how destructive an act it is both for themselves and their unborn child. Whatever psychological coping mechanisms are employed during the process, the sight of a fetus in a hospital bedpan remains the final statement." - Abortion nurse
Jeff Lane Hensley The Zero People: Essays on Life (Ann Arbor: Servant Books) 1983 pgs 221-223

From the Testimony of Dr. McArthur Hill, former abortion provider:

"The vacuum machine is used [for first trimester abortions] and the vacuum tubing empties into a tiny little cheesecloth sack. That little cheesecloth sack is about this big and in it are the products of conception. That's what we called it. We sent those down to pathology. In my second year of residency, I spent two months on a pathology rotation, which is an interesting thing, and I had to come face to face with the contents of those sacks. We were studying embryology of the ovary...I, personally, then had to search through the jumbled-up mass of tissue to find the fetal gonads, to be sure to include them on the slide so that we could study them. The jumbled-up mass of tissue was easily identifiable as the torn and shredded body of a tiny human being....half of the aborted fetuses were males...Even though these discoveries made me uncomfortable, I continued to do abortions. There were times when I personally sat there and opened up containers, five, six, seven containers at a time, and would open them up and stand and look at the [contents.]"
Personal Testimony "Meet the Abortion Providers" conference

"My official title at the mill was "health worker." I did various duties - lab work, leading groups (deceiving women about their abortions), "advocating" (deceiving women during their abortions), and assisting the abortionist, which included helping during the abortion and checking to make sure all the parts of the baby were there in the collection jar afterwards. I will never forget, in the second-trimester abortions, holding those little feet up to a chart on the wall to make sure of the age of the baby." - Dina Madsen
"Meet the Abortion Providers" conference

This is from a student who preferred to remain anonymous:

"To begin, I must say that until yesterday, Friday, July 2, 2004, I was strongly pro-choice. I am a pre-medical student, and being very scientific, I understood that the mass of cells that forms the fetal body is not often capable of survival before 24 weeks in the womb. I am also somewhat liberal, and I believed that every woman should have the right to choose what she did with her body and one that could potentially be growing inside of her. This summer, I was accepted into a pre-medical program in NYC in which we are allowed to shadow doctors and see all sorts of medical procedures. When given the opportunity to see an abortion, I did not hesitate to accept the offer. It was something new, edgy, and exciting that I had never seen. When I entered the operating room, it felt like any other I had ever been in. On the table in front of me, I saw a woman, legs up as if delivering a child although she was asleep. Next to her was a tray of instruments for the abortion and a vacuum machine for suctioning the fetal tissues from the uterus. The doctors put on their gowns and masks and the procedure began. The cervix was held open with a crude metal instrument and a large transparent tube was stuck inside of the woman. Within a matter of seconds, the machine's motor was engaged and blood, tissue, and tiny organs were pulled out of their environment into a filter. A minute later, the vacuum choked to a halt. The tube was removed, and stuck to the end was a small body and a head attached haphazardly to it, what was formed of the neck snapped. The ribs had formed with a thin skin covering them, the eyes had formed, and the inner organs had begun to function. The tiny heart of the fetus, obviously a little boy, had just stopped -- forever. The vacuum filter was opened, and the tiny arms and legs that had been torn off of the fetus were accounted for. The fingers and toes had the beginnings of their nails on them. The doctors, proud of their work, reassembled the body to show me. Tears welled up in my eyes as they removed the baby boy from the table and shoved his body into a container for disposal. I have not been able to think of anything since yesterday at 10:30 besides what that baby boy might have been. I don't think that people realize what an abortion actually is until they see it happen. I have been tortured by these images - so real and so vivid - for two days now...and I was just a spectator. Never again will I be pro-choice, and never again will I support the murder of any human being, no matter their stage in life."
Sat, Jul 3 22:29:15 2004

"Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet....there is a great difference between the intellectual support of a woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers." -Judith Fetrow, former clinic worker from San Francisco
"Meet the Abortion Providers 3"

http://clinicquotes.com/former.htm

Zygote, embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, child, adolescent, etc, these are all developmental stages in the continuum of human life; it's the same human being, just at different developmental and growth stages in life.

What an incredible case of denial!
"To me murder has to be an act against an independent being that can function on its own."
So, does this mean that she would allow the killing of children? What defines function anyhow?
"If the people who say that would spend time in a clinic and see what actually is the result of an abortion, what comes out of the uterus, I believe they would have to rethink it themselves, and many of them would decide it isn't murder."
Well guess what, WE have SEEN what comes out of the uterus after an abortion - legs, arms, heads, feet, blood, torsos. And we KNOW it's a BABY.
And she states at 12 weeks that a "woman is not aware of it physically" WRONG again DOCTOR! I felt all of my babies BEFORE 12 WEEKS! And it wasn't GAS either!

Awesome post Rachael!

You guise!! It's snowing in Georgia!

Yeah, it's been a weird winter up here further north, in Indiana, as well. One day it'll be in 60's with some rain and the next day it's in the 20's & snowing. We've had a lot of freeze & thaws through December & January.

Other parts of the interview with Wicklund are worth reading. Included are such gems as
-"...in many states, a woman is mandated to hear medically inaccurate information before having an abortion. This is information written by non-medical people whose main objective is to stop abortions. How could this not be considered an undue burden?"
Response: how many medical procedures do you know of where you are NOT required to give the patient FULL DISCLOSURE prior to consent? The information is not medically inaccurate as DR. Wicklund well knows but in fact shows EXACTLY what is present in a woman's uterus at a specific stage of pregnancy. If in fact, there's nothing worthwhile looking at, then let the patient see it. But proaborts KNOW what's there - a real LIVE BABY.

- "The kids that have pledged “abstinence-only” have a higher rate of STDs than kids who have comprehensive sex education."
Really. You can't catch an STD if you're NOT having sex. Cough up the proof lady - don't make things up like you did in the '60's and '70's.

- "The language used by many of the states, for example, refers to the fetus as an “unborn baby.” This is a medically incorrect term. It’s an embryo, and then it’s a fetus, and yes, at a certain point it’s a baby, but not at the stage these abortions are being done."
It's a baby period. And by Wicklunds definition or lack of one, when exactly is it a BABY? In Canada abortions are done up to BIRTH - NO RESTRICTIONS! NONE. Even by Wicklunds criteria BABIES are therefore being aborted!

And then there's this hysteria:
"Women would be investigated for having miscarriages. Women will be targeted. Police could be at your door asking about why you had a miscarriage, asking what did you do to cause it?"
This belongs in the COAT-HANGER FILE.

Heh, I just got a snow day monday, and got soaked by that and tired out by shoveling, thank god thursday will be snow -> mix -> rain, washing it all away.

Thank you Rachael for the post. I am sickened but grateful once again that THE TRUTH will be told. I have no doubt.

I completely agree with Wicklund's analogy.
A sperm and ovum supply a blueprint through DNA. A woman's unoccupied uterus would be the construction sight. The building materials and labor are supplied by the woman. If she chooses to supply them.

And then there's this hysteria:
"Women would be investigated for having miscarriages. Women will be targeted. Police could be at your door asking about why you had a miscarriage, asking what did you do to cause it?"
This belongs in the COAT-HANGER FILE.

Posted by: Patricia at January 16, 2008 5:46 PM
..................................

Really Patricia? I'm heard of women being prosecuted for not protecting their own health during pregnancy through drug use. Where does that stop in your mind?

Sally,
The statement you refer to was made in reference to what would happen if Roe vs Wade were overturned. This is typical proabort rhetoric to blow out of proportion, isolated and unlikely scenarios. I can remember arguing with med students in the early '80's about abortion rights. Of course, they could come up with all kinds of "hard cases" as to why we should have abortions - babies that have genetic diseases where they eat themselves and on and on and on. Again, it's unlikely police are going to show up at the hospital or at women's homes investigating their miscarriages. Like they have nothing better to do. However, if Roe vs Wade should ever be overturned, then a woman showing up at a hospital, presenting with symptoms of an abortion, needs medical treatment, compassion and investigating. Not charging. After all, where's the man who impregnated her. Most women seek abortions because they lack the support from the father. Abortion is simply not the answer to an unwanted pregnancy.

"I completely agree with Wicklund's analogy."

Sally, ask her out on a date.

and Sally re: your 7:35 post
The analogy would be fine if we were talking about objects here, but we are talking about a human person once fertilization takes place.
Proaborts don't believe a human person exists or if they do, it simply doesn't have the right to life that the rest of us enjoy. So what do you do, dehumanize the baby. You can deny the facts of biology all you want but it doesn't make it not a baby, as Rachaels post so eloquently shows.
And by the way, if a woman has sex, then she has to realize that she might very well be supplying the building materials and labour to create a new human being. If she doesn't want to do that - DONT HAVE SEX!

sorry ladies, but I have to go.
I have to go to work and am up early Thurs mornings.
IT's been a slice. God bless.

"I completely agree with Wicklund's analogy."

Sally, ask her out on a date.

Posted by: jasper at January 16, 2008 9:08 PM
........................................

Um OK. Maybe I can fix her up with my cousin. Is she single?

and Sally re: your 7:35 post
The analogy would be fine if we were talking about objects here, but we are talking about a human person once fertilization takes place.
Proaborts don't believe a human person exists or if they do, it simply doesn't have the right to life that the rest of us enjoy. So what do you do, dehumanize the baby. You can deny the facts of biology all you want but it doesn't make it not a baby, as Rachaels post so eloquently shows.
And by the way, if a woman has sex, then she has to realize that she might very well be supplying the building materials and labour to create a new human being. If she doesn't want to do that - DONT HAVE SEX!

Posted by: Patricia at January 16, 2008 9:15 PM
...........................................................

Sorry Patricia, an embryo is not what I would ever consider a baby. If it was, it certainly wouldn't die due to lack of residence in my uterus. You are attaching human attributes to an embryo that do not exist and negating the very real human attributes of the woman. You elevate the very ability to live that a conceptus is not even aware of over the very able and aware life of the woman.
A woman cannot be forced to supply building materials and labor. Even just her body, without mindful support can reject your concept of a baby. Nothing you can do about it.

The masters of deception know that a fetus is a living unborn baby; they know that a fetus is a separate genetic entity. They know but they don't care. They have no respect for life. In their sinister world of deceit and distortion, life is cheap. Their callused consciences allow them to disregard or distort the facts. They argue for a woman's right to reproductive freedom knowing clearly that what they are actually demanding is the right to kill unborn babies. They know but they don't care. The masters of deception are not only great deceivers; they are also great pretenders. They rack their brains to craft phrases which make killing babies sound more humane: right to choose, terminate a pregnancy, reproductive freedom, etc. Millions are honestly deceived by their rhetoric, but abortionists, and most abortion rights leaders, are committing their atrocities with eyes wide open. The truth is, baby killing is a lucrative industry. Many who claim to fight for women's rights are actually fighting for their own financial well-being. They don't care about women or babies. They care about themselves.

Being an engineer I can understand the analogy of a developing infant in the womb to a unfinished car on the assembly line. Right....

I've got some questions though. When the car is finished will it have the ability to deny it's maker or even question who made it? Will the car be able to reproduce itself by let's say mating with another car or truck? What would a VW mated with a Suburban look like? If the car runs out of gas could it find a way to feed itself?

This woman is an insane murderer and is subject to a generational curse. It's obvious that her grandmother had a murderous bent as well. What's more amazing is that our government provides a framework in which this type of lunatic can express themselves in a book from which she will profit instead of rotting in a jail cell or psychiatric ward where she belongs.

Sally:

There is no God then?

In your world you are god and all choices are yours to make.

You fatally make the assumption that there is no God and no exercise of His will was made evident by the appearance of a fertilized egg in the womb.

If there is no God and no evidence of Himself made clear by the conception of an infant...what's the point of anyone's life? We're here for 70 or 80 years, have some good and some bad times and then we're gone. What in heaven's name is the point?

If there is a God and a fetus is the explicit expression of His will, what makes you think anyone could rightly oppose that will without consequence? Under that light abortion is then the ultimate act of arrogance and rebellion?

And do not think that His seeming lack of a response to the murder of a baby in the womb is indication of a disengaged Creator or the non-existence thereof. To Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Perhaps He's waiting for a change of heart of all pro-aborts who may some day awake from their self-induced coma of deception. Perhpas He's a loving God who wishes none to perish, not infants in the womb and not pro-aborts.

Heard her on the radio the other day...from Lumina/Hope & Healing after ABortion blog

Dr Susan Wicklund author of the book mentioned in a post below "This Common Secret" was a guest on WNYC radio today.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2008/01/14

It is amazing to hear how she thinks of herself ...she seems to think she is heroic for continuing to perform abortions. Her main theme is that abortion must be part of everyday conversations to take the shame away. However, some things, when they are wrong, will never take shame away no matter how much you speak of it. As I have said many times before, I do not believe anyone wants an abortion and so how can they make it a light occurrence in life. Thank God for that. I would be horrified to think that women, no matter how justified they may believe their abortion to be, could make it something light in their lives.

Another concerned voice in the radio spot was the fact that in the movies "Juno" and
Knocked Up" the women chose to keep their babies...the host of the show actually made an implication that it may be a conspiracy to make abortion illegal....hmmm...what happened to choice....

Sally, show me a blueprint that, if set down in the middle of a lot, will spontaneously grow into a house, and I'll buy your analogy.

"We're here for 70 or 80 years, have some good and some bad times and then we're gone. What in heaven's name is the point?"

exactly

The devil is a busy man and found a body in Susan Wicklund. But he'd be needing a different body real quick if she ever put one of my daughters through that. If I ever found out somebody gave one of my little girls an abortion without my even being notified justice would be swift.
*************
LET ME BE CLEAR:
I would NEVER promote violence to try to overturn RoeV Wade or to try to stop abortions. And anybody who would promote violence should be prosecuted and held liable for their crime
**************

But if it ever got that close to me my passion would get the best of me. I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet?

Abortion is an assault on women.

Part of any comprehensive sexual education course should be that abortion is intrinsicly evil. And we also need to make sure our children understand "safe sex" is a lie, unless you are prepared to raise a child. Over half the abortions each day are performed on women who were using birth control.

Abortion is an assault on women.

Posted by: Truthseeker at January 17, 2008 12:34 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gee, women seem to be more than happy to pay for the privledge, and virtually all are happy with the result.
Doesn't sound like an assault to me...

ff says:
*************
Gee, women seem to be more than happy to pay for the privledge, and virtually all are happy with the result.
**************
Lie, lie. lie. But you won't deceive me. Abortion is not a privilege it is an affront to motherhood to lye do for a woman to lye down on a gurnee and raise up her legs and submit to crude instruments being stuffed into her private parts and terminate her pregnancy. Women want their choice but your one of the few who is happy when other people get abortions. You should think bout that.

ff says:
*************
Gee, women seem to be more than happy to pay for the privledge, and virtually all are happy with the result.
**************
Lie, lie. lie. But you won't deceive me. Abortion is not a privilege it is an affront to motherhood for a woman to lye down on a gurnee and raise up her legs and submit to crude instruments being stuffed into her private parts for the purpose of terminating her baby. Women want their choice but your one of the few who is happy when other people get abortions. You should think about that ff.

HisMan: I've got some questions though. When the car is finished will it have the ability to deny it's maker or even question who made it?

Depends on what you mean by "maker." It likely will be no more in error than are some people. Have to laugh - I know you could agree, just seeing a different group as the "some people."
......

Will the car be able to reproduce itself by let's say mating with another car or truck?

Not with current technology, but in the fullness of time, who knows?
......

If the car runs out of gas could it find a way to feed itself?

Probably not so far off in terms of techonology and time. There'll be signs saying, "Hungry yet?" aimed at Chevys and Fords....
......

What would a VW mated with a Suburban look like?

It's not exactly a household name, but the Ssangyong Korando gets my vote.

Rather than German + American, it's a Korean car designed by a British guy.

Other than that I was going to say, "Oprah Winfrey."

Dear FF,
Virtually all are happy with the result......nope. Not me. I regret mine. But you know that. I've already told you that. Just me. The only one in this whole wide world that regrets her abortion. sigh

TruthSeeker,

You are right. Aborition is an assult on women and the founding Mothers of feminism said so.

My neighbor is building a house currently. If I tear down the framing before the house is completed will I be charged with anything? I can always argue it only had the potential to become a house, it wasn't really a house.

Ken, I would imagine you'd be charged with destuction of property, something like that.

If you attack a pregnant woman, you'd probably get charged with something too.

Ken- if he tore down his OWN building foundation, I don't think he'd be charged with anything.

Doug,

Not necessarily. Pregnant women have been brutally assaulted with the intent of killing their unborn children and did. As long as the woman survived her attacker got little more than a wrist slapping. So what was to discourage these thugs who knew they wouldn't face murder charges?
Laws that would charge them with murder. Many of these women, their relatives, and their survivors have fought for such laws and have won, much to the chagrin of feminists. Even though a murder charge might make some thug think twice about deliberately killing an unborn child by assaulting a pregnant woman, it would seem that some feminists viewed women being assaulted and brutalized as preferable to recognizing the unborn as human.

Doug:

What a tremedous waste of time.

Well I guess it's one way of keeping a pro-abort busy.

Hal:

Here's my complete quote in context, "If there is no God and no evidence of Himself made clear by the conception of an infant...what's the point of anyone's life? We're here for 70 or 80 years, have some good and some bad times and then we're gone. What in heaven's name is the point?"

So Hal, have you talked to your therapist lately about your habit of not fully completing anything? I mean you killed your first two infants and had the second two didn't you? Exactly.

Sally,
The statement you refer to was made in reference to what would happen if Roe vs Wade were overturned. This is typical proabort rhetoric to blow out of proportion, isolated and unlikely scenarios. I can remember arguing with med students in the early '80's about abortion rights. Of course, they could come up with all kinds of "hard cases" as to why we should have abortions - babies that have genetic diseases where they eat themselves and on and on and on. Again, it's unlikely police are going to show up at the hospital or at women's homes investigating their miscarriages. Like they have nothing better to do. However, if Roe vs Wade should ever be overturned, then a woman showing up at a hospital, presenting with symptoms of an abortion, needs medical treatment, compassion and investigating. Not charging. After all, where's the man who impregnated her. Most women seek abortions because they lack the support from the father. Abortion is simply not the answer to an unwanted pregnancy.

Posted by: Patricia at January 16, 2008 9:07 PM
.......................................................................

So, what you are advocating is a return to a time when the wealthy had access to legal abortion but not the poor?
We have Jill making a madonna out of Halle here on this blog. Halle is gestating at the age of 41. We have no idea how many abortions she may have had previous to becoming financially independent. Do you have a problem with women no longer accepting the need to be financially supported by men?

Sally:

There is no God then?

In your world you are god and all choices are yours to make.

You fatally make the assumption that there is no God and no exercise of His will was made evident by the appearance of a fertilized egg in the womb.

If there is no God and no evidence of Himself made clear by the conception of an infant...what's the point of anyone's life? We're here for 70 or 80 years, have some good and some bad times and then we're gone. What in heaven's name is the point?

If there is a God and a fetus is the explicit expression of His will, what makes you think anyone could rightly oppose that will without consequence? Under that light abortion is then the ultimate act of arrogance and rebellion?

And do not think that His seeming lack of a response to the murder of a baby in the womb is indication of a disengaged Creator or the non-existence thereof. To Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Perhaps He's waiting for a change of heart of all pro-aborts who may some day awake from their self-induced coma of deception. Perhpas He's a loving God who wishes none to perish, not infants in the womb and not pro-aborts.

Posted by: HisMan at January 16, 2008 11:20 PM
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I'm of the ashes to ashes, dust to dust frame of mind. We knew nothing before our mothers gave life to us and we will know exactly that much when we are dead.
I have no need of a god, nor do I aspire to be one. I do not subscribe to the belief that humans need to be owned by, slaves to, or servants to an imagined all-powerful being.
I see the universe as one very large organism of which I am part. I contribute in a way that is healthiest for my life and well being, and the world is healthier for it.

Sally,

If you were to list everything the rich can do that the poor can't, it would never end.
Do you think the wealthy sit in the same abortion clinic waiting rooms as the poor? They will continue to fly off to discreet locations for their abortions, as they always have.
I wonder how many of the women in the Cemetary of Choice, who died of legal abortion, were wealthy.

Concerning Halle, do you assume women must have had abortions before they were financially independent? Maybe she's financially independent because of hard work, intelligence, talent, and ambition.
I support men taking responsibility for their offspring, unborn and born. Its irrelevant if the woman is financially dependent or not, he still has a responsibility.

ally, show me a blueprint that, if set down in the middle of a lot, will spontaneously grow into a house, and I'll buy your analogy.

Posted by: Christina at January 16, 2008 11:46 PM
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Spontaneously grow? A fertilized ovum that implants does not spontaneously grow. A conceptus must be cultivated through human labor to develop beyond it's basic blueprint. That is not spontaneous. (I will invoice you for your debt and send your remittance to your mother.)

My neighbor is building a house currently. If I tear down the framing before the house is completed will I be charged with anything? I can always argue it only had the potential to become a house, it wasn't really a house.

Posted by: ken at January 17, 2008 11:01 AM
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The question is: if the owner of the house tears down the framing, would you be considered insane for insisting that he be charged with murdering a house.

We are clearly on different planets. I have read about Wicklund before, and I hold her up as the very model of an ethical abortionist, an honorable and necessary profession.

I would also point out to all of you who drone on about how all abortion doctors are just in it for the money and don't care about women: Wicklund is clearly inspired and on a mission to help women. She has put a great deal of thought and consideration into what she does, why she does it, and its ramifications. She (along with others I know) is NOT that greedy straw doctor that you love to hate.

As an aside to HisMan: why does there have to be a god for there to be a point to life? I believe in God (I call him Creator), but I don't need him to tell me that we are all in it together on this planet, and we all ought to work to make life as decent for each other as possible, both in little ways and in big ones (an idea that all too many "Christians" don't seem to practice). Does there really need to be more than that for you to feel satisfied? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Ray,

Suppose I were to say that while I greatly admire professional car thieves and what they do, I in no way support thievery.

You speak of the ethical abortionist and her necessary and honorable profession. You praise her and her work.
Yet, in previous posts you have maintained you are pro-choice not pro-abortion.
I can't quite understand how you can speak so admirably of what this woman does, perform abortions, but you don't like or support what she does, perform abortions.

There is no contradiction, Mary. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion, but if a woman is to be able to make that choice, a provider must be available perform it. If a woman I cared for decided to obtain an abortion, I would want her to be able to go to someone like Susan Wicklund.

I believe that abortions are sad, but sometimes necessary, and I do not condemn women who get them or the people who perform them. I do not think they are a crime, so I reject your analogy to thievery, in the same way that you might reject an analogy between the deceptions carried out by "Pregancy Crisis Centers" and bait-and-switch scam artists.

Ray,
What times is it "necessary"? Are you one of those psychopaths that thinks it better to kill a baby than bring into life poor cause you'd be preventing suffering?

Mary: Not necessarily. Pregnant women have been brutally assaulted with the intent of killing their unborn children and did. As long as the woman survived her attacker got little more than a wrist slapping. So what was to discourage these thugs who knew they wouldn't face murder charges?

Laws that would charge them with murder. Many of these women, their relatives, and their survivors have fought for such laws and have won, much to the chagrin of feminists. Even though a murder charge might make some thug think twice about deliberately killing an unborn child by assaulting a pregnant woman, it would seem that some feminists viewed women being assaulted and brutalized as preferable to recognizing the unborn as human.

Mary, I question the "slap on the wrist," and the actual "deterrent" effect of laws on murder is much less than what many people think. However, I don't see people being "for" attacks on pregnant women in the first place, whether they are feminists or not.

If there are objections to the laws, here, I imagine it is because they are seen as creeping incrementalism efforts by pro-lifers, rather than because the unborn are so protected now in some cases.

Doug

Ray: As an aside to HisMan: why does there have to be a god for there to be a point to life? I believe in God (I call him Creator), but I don't need him to tell me that we are all in it together on this planet, and we all ought to work to make life as decent for each other as possible, both in little ways and in big ones (an idea that all too many "Christians" don't seem to practice). Does there really need to be more than that for you to feel satisfied? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Good points, Ray. The point of a person's life is their experiences and works and relationships affecting other people. That may include them being religious, or not.

On the "making life decent," perhaps one's own happiness and that of others as one relates to it? Could that be our purpose? Or is the individual's purpose that of finding the individual's purpose?

As far as "wanting more," I think that is a common motivation for people who have religious beliefs, etc. Fear of death, being told they need "more," or just plain feeling "better" because of their beliefs - deriving comfort from them, etc. While there is no necessary need for such stuff, a given individual may want it most strongly.

Sometimes I feel similar to you, as far as feeling sorry for some people, but overall if they are happy, then I think it's a good thing for them. The problems start when they assume that everybody is like them, and/or that their beliefs should be enforced on other people.

Doug

Ray,

I can't agree there is no contradiction. You admire this woman for what she does but not what she does. What's wrong with what she does?
Can you give me another example of people you admire for doing something you don't like?

Also, CPCs and bait and switch scam artists. Please Ray. CPCs are staffed by women like myself and Bethany, not professional criminals. No woman is "baited" into coming in or calling and she always has the option to hang up the phone or get up and walk out. I have yet to encounter a client as stupid and helpless as you PC people think these women are.

You should be more concerned about the sexual predators PP has covered up for.

Doug,

These thugs got an assault and battery charge, far less serious than a murder rap. A murder rap may not deter these thugs? Well gee Doug, it looks like the women, their families, and their survivors wasted a lot of time and effort getting Lacy and Connor's Law passed. Of course no one wants pregnant women attacked and the best way to protect them is the most stringent laws and punishment possible, something not all feminists supported because this might confer humanity and rights on a fetus.

Mary, right on.

Where does one's philosophy of life come from if it doesn't start with God?

Doesn't it make sense to at least consider studying what many of the brightest minds in philosophy have studied over many centuries, instead of starting from scratch?

Personally, I don't have enough time to figure it all out on my own, I'll only be here for 60 to 70 years, if I'm lucky.

A murder rap may not deter these thugs?

No, Mary, maybe not. PIP has posted plenty of stuff about this. People aren't thinking about the "rap." aften.

Where does one's philosophy of life come from if it doesn't start with God?

From what one thinks and wants.
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Doesn't it make sense to at least consider studying what many of the brightest minds in philosophy have studied over many centuries, instead of starting from scratch?

Sure, and among them are those who held unprovable beliefs, and those who did not.

I think true wisdom is being happy in one's life, whether or not one is religious.