I thought this issue was dead, pardon the pun.

The January issue of Vogue magazine features a story about Lori Campbell, modeling partial birth abortion chic.

I won't be picking up the magazine, but according to JivinJehoshaphat, Campbell says she got a pba in 1998 at 22 weeks gestation due to incompetent cervix and ruptured bag of waters.

Lots of holes in the story (to match the hole in her baby's head?), but whatever. Lori looks fabulous.

UPDATE, 1/11, 11a: Stanek proofreader Angela has alerted me that Lifesitenews.com includes excerpts of the Vogue story. Angela also noted it is strangely juxtopositioned against the cover story on Angelina and her happy adoptions.]

WOW! That is sickening!

Wow! This is EXACTLY what happened to my friend. Well "exactly" minus the fact that she didn't have a PBA. She was air-lifted to Lutheran General and delivered at 22 weeks, told the doctors to do whatever they could to save her son and now he's six. (Maybe 5, I think he's a few months younger than my son.)

Again we see just how hateful antichoicers are towards women ....

where do we see that?

I am slightly confused by this story...WHY was there a PBA performed? Why didn't they deliver and try to save the baby?

T Red,

Just to put your continuous hate theory to rest, how 'bout this:

"I love you Texas Red! I don't care what they say!"

And did you notice how the sensationalist spaniards are cleaning up house?

Hasta luego...

Elizabeth, good question.

Thanks Heater..but I mean, I really am confused by the story lol.

I meant Heather..sheesh I can't type these days.

I know. Most of these babies could survive.

I certainly would tell them to save my baby.

me too.

At 22 weeks? I'm not sure that that kind of minuscule chance of fetal survival is worth the medical dangers of a C-section.

She didn't want the baby to "suffer" and die naturally. So hence, a PBA.

Carla, thank you.

For what? :)

Explaining.

Erin, my friend delivered naturally, not by C-section. Why do you think it would have to be C-section? The PBA had to have more risk delivering breech.

Again we see just how hateful antichoicers are towards women ....

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 3:09 PM

where do we see that?

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 3:11 PM
************************************
You have a woman who had to end a wanted pregnancy because of complications in the pregnancy and all you (general use of the word - not only you specifically) can do is be hateful about her.

I guess sucking its brains out lessens the baby's suffering? Silly me, I should have known.

Texas Red,

why do hate children? do you have any?

What is wrong with "nature taking its course?" I have friends that knew they were pregnant with a baby with anencephaly and she was carried to term and delivered and lived an hour. She was named Grace and was given more love than I have ever seen.
Another friend went into labor at 22 weeks and that baby was delivered and died in Mommy's arms. What is wrong with that? There is a certain dignity in allowing others to die naturally.

I agree, Carla.

I know. Most of these babies could survive.

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 3:22 PM
***********************************************
No, they couldnt. At 23 weeks the chance of viability is about 15% and I got that statistic from a RTL web page. They didnt even list 22 weeks as viable. You dont know a thing about the fetus or the pregnancy or the circumstances surrounding her decision to end her pregnancy. But you are certain you "know" what the woman "should have done" and that she has to be wrong.

I guess sucking its brains out lessens the baby's suffering? Silly me, I should have known.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 3:36 PM
**********************************************
It would suffer less than if it had spent five days in ICU then had died - why dont you tell all of us how you know so much about the health of the fetus in this particular set of circumstances?

Texas Red,

why do hate children? do you have any?

Posted by: jasper at January 10, 2008 3:39 PM
********************************
Thank you, Jasper, for proving youre an imbecile one more time.

Texas Red,

when can we put you out of your misery?

jasper, HA!

TR,

I think it's way more dignified that way than sucking its brains out. I would never let them suck my baby's brains out. Poor baby.

What is wrong with "nature taking its course?" I have friends that knew they were pregnant with a baby with anencephaly and she was carried to term and delivered and lived an hour. She was named Grace and was given more love than I have ever seen.
Another friend went into labor at 22 weeks and that baby was delivered and died in Mommy's arms. What is wrong with that? There is a certain dignity in allowing others to die naturally.

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 3:41 PM
******************************
She was dealing with an incompetent cervix and her water had already broken. She did what she and her doctor thought was best. Why do you imagine you should be second guessing her and pretending you know more about what she 'should' have done than she did?

"At 23 weeks the chance of viability is about 15%"

Hey, it's something, an abortion offers 0%.

P.S. TR,

After the baby is born..it isn't called a fetus..it's a neonate now. Just though you should get your terminology correct.

TR, it's a baby at conception.

TR,

I think it's way more dignified that way than sucking its brains out. I would never let them suck my baby's brains out. Poor baby.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 3:54 PM
*****************************************
And you couldnt care less about the woman pregnant. You prove my point about just how hateful towards women antichoicers are. You dont know a thing about the womans health or the condition of the fetus or why labor wasnt an option they chose. Youre just certain shes a horrible person and she did the wrong thing.

"She was dealing with an incompetent cervix"

whatever, how did she get her first kid? She didn't want that baby, not enough anyway.

TR, it's a baby at conception.

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 3:56 PM
**********************************************
You can pretend a fertilized egg is a *baby* if you want to. I can think its an idea only an idiot would present and expect to be taken seriously.

Wait, what do you mean that we couldn't care less about the pregnant woman? TR, how many abortions have you really had. You are WAAAAY too defensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I NEVER said she was a horrible person TR...I was actually asking a question about the story because it was confusing to me. Not a lot of details..I don't ASSUME things like you do..I like to actually know the details. How does saying poor baby mean I don't care about the pregnant woman? Can I NOT have sympathy for both?

If the baby's death is imminent then why kill it? I just don't get it!!

You can pretend a fertilized egg is a *baby* if you want to. I can think its an idea only an idiot would present and expect to be taken seriously.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 3:58 PM---------- Honey, I don't need to pretend. I live in the real world! Doctors will tell you the same thing.

EXACTLY, Carla!

I haven't met a doctor that refers to a fertilized egg or an embryo as a baby.

.S. TR,

After the baby is born..it isn't called a fetus..it's a neonate now. Just though you should get your terminology correct.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 3:55 PM
*************************************************
Elizabeth, my terminologi is correct. We are talking about a fetus.

Wait, what do you mean that we couldn't care less about the pregnant woman? TR, how many abortions have you really had. You are WAAAAY too defensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 3:59 PM
************************************************
And you just cant understand why I think youre an idiot.

Erin,

You must not know a lot of doctors then...cause the 2 obstetricians I saw while pregnant always called my "fetus" a baby.

"She was dealing with an incompetent cervix"

whatever, how did she get her first kid? She didn't want that baby, not enough anyway.

Posted by: rosie at January 10, 2008 3:58 PM
********************************
How laughable. Again, we see the hateful attitude of antichoicers.

As did the ultrasound tech. who did my ultrasound of my baby.

And you just cant understand why I think youre an idiot.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:03 PM----------------- Ask me if I care???

"At 23 weeks the chance of viability is about 15%"

Hey, it's something, an abortion offers 0%.

Posted by: rosie at January 10, 2008 3:55 PM
************************************************
There is 85% chance of 'no chance at all' at 23 weeks, and even more than that at 22 weeks. If the fetus isnt viable it doesnt matter if the woman gives birth or has an abortion.

Rosie, my friend had her daughter before this happened to her. She (my friend) is very small and the delivery was hard. From what I understand the head crowned but she couldn't deliver. They did a c-section in the end. The doctors believe that's what damaged her cervix for the second baby but they didn't realize until this happened with her second pregnancy. She did have a third and got a stitch immediately and delivered the third with no complications.

TR, I think you need to step back and take a break. I know you think Heather and Jasper are "hate filled" but you sound just like them to the other extreme. So if you don't want to be considered in the same company you should cool it.

You can pretend a fertilized egg is a *baby* if you want to. I can think its an idea only an idiot would present and expect to be taken seriously.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 3:58 PM---------- Honey, I don't need to pretend. I live in the real world! Doctors will tell you the same thing.

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 4:01 PM
*******************************
No, 'doctors' will not try to tell me that a fertilized egg 'is' a baby.

You said it TR, so WHY not give birth and hold the baby in your arms? hmmmm....

BTW Heather and Jasper I really haven't seen anything offensive in your comments. But obviously TR does.

kristen, thanks.

If the baby's death is imminent then why kill it? I just don't get it!!

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 4:00 PM
*********************************************
Obviously you dont. What would be the options if she wasnt in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasnt viable?

Erin,

You must not know a lot of doctors then...cause the 2 obstetricians I saw while pregnant always called my "fetus" a baby.

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 4:04 PM
************************************
And your medical records would say embryo or fetus depending on gestation. And Ive never heard anyone try to pretend that a fertilized egg was a *baby*

Obviously you dont. What would be the options if she wasnt in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasnt viable?

Give birth to it and say goodbye? What is your point exactly TR?

TR, I think you need to step back and take a break. I know you think Heather and Jasper are "hate filled" but you sound just like them to the other extreme. So if you don't want to be considered in the same company you should cool it.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:07 PM
***********************************
And your admonition to Heather and Jasper to do the same thing? Such predictable hypocricy -

You said it TR, so WHY not give birth and hold the baby in your arms? hmmmm....

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 4:08 PM
***************************************
How do you know she DIDNT hold it? Back to your really nasty attitude towards the woman -

BTW Heather and Jasper I really haven't seen anything offensive in your comments. But obviously TR does.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:09 PM
***************************
So jasper saying I hate children isnt offensive? asking if he can 'put me out of my mysery' isnt offensive? You are SUCH a hypocrite.

Well kids,

My former FETUS is awake...talk to you all later!

What would be the options if she wasnt in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasnt viable?

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:11 PM

And HOW did the doctors know it wasn't viable?

And about my admonition to Heather and Jasper... Like I said I don't see anything offensive in their posts on this subject. You look like a screaming lunatic, sorry but you do...

Obviously you dont. What would be the options if she wasnt in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasnt viable?

Give birth to it and say goodbye? What is your point exactly TR?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 4:13 PM
*********************************************
What part of 'wasnt in labor' confuses you? The only option would have been a c section and if the fetus wasnt viable then whats the point, beyond putting the woman through major surgery when she didnt have to be? We keep coming back to your really nasty attitude towards the woman who went through this and your insistance that she was 'wrong' without knowing anything at all about the circumstances.

TR, you have been given so many chances. You are nuts!

When I found out I was pregnant I called everyone I could think of and told them I was going to have a baby!! I didn't say "Hey, guess what I'm growing an embryo!" "Hey I've got cells dividing!"
By the time women find out they are pregnant they are already 5-6 weeks along....the baby is formed. Formed.

And about my admonition to Heather and Jasper... Like I said I don't see anything offensive in their posts on this subject. You look like a screaming lunatic, sorry but you do...

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:18 PM
************************
No, you just need to pretend that because youre a hypocrite and you cant be honest - its part of being an antichoicer. Dishonesty and lies come naturally.

And HOW did the doctors know it wasn't viable?

***********************
They can tell by testing the amniotic fluid. Obviously this had been a high risk pregnancy if her cervix was incompetent so the doctor would have kept close watch on potential viability.

"going to have a baby".

Not "I have a baby!"

Also, what do you hear? "I'm going to be a mommy/daddy!" or "I'm a mommy/daddy!"

So jasper saying I hate children isnt offensive? asking if he can 'put me out of my mysery' isnt offensive? You are SUCH a hypocrite.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:17 PM

Your comments before this post show a somewhat lack of empathy for the baby, fetus since you prefer. I do think 5 days in a NICU and a natural death is less suffering than a puncture to the back of the head and the brain suctioned out.

Like it or not she was delivering that baby that day. She could have said no heroic measures and the baby could have died peacefully in her arms; her argument about "losing a pregnancy/losing a child" is hollow.

Why a C-section? If a woman has an incompetent cervix the baby would be delivered. Just sayin.

When I found out I was pregnant I called everyone I could think of and told them I was going to have a baby!! I didn't say "Hey, guess what I'm growing an embryo!" "Hey I've got cells dividing!"
By the time women find out they are pregnant they are already 5-6 weeks along....the baby is formed. Formed.

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 4:19 PM
***************************************
And if you had 'given birth' when you were 8 weeks into gestation what would you have said then? you would have said you 'lost the baby' - thats because the embryo wasnt developed enough to be a baby. And no, its not formed at 5 to 6 weeks. If it were then the woman could give birth and it would survive.

TR, 4:10p: No, c-section wasn't her only option. Her cervix was already dilated, her water broken, and her baby was a max of 1#. She could have coughed and the baby would have slipped out.

Actually, I don't believe she had a pba. Makes no sense. Unnecessary and potentially dangerous medical procedure when all that had to be done if she was bent on delivering NOW was get up and walk a little.

Like it or not she was delivering that baby that day. She could have said no heroic measures and the baby could have died peacefully in her arms; her argument about "losing a pregnancy/losing a child" is hollow.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:24 PM
******************************************
And we're back to your disgusting attitude towards the woman.

What part of 'wasnt in labor' confuses you? The only option would have been a c section and if the fetus wasnt viable then whats the point, beyond putting the woman through major surgery when she didnt have to be? We keep coming back to your really nasty attitude towards the woman who went through this and your insistance that she was 'wrong' without knowing anything at all about the circumstances.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:19 PM

TR, if your water breaks you ARE in labor. You may not have contractions but it does constitute labor.

Why a C-section? If a woman has an incompetent cervix the baby would be delivered. Just sayin.

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 4:24 PM
****************
No, it wouldnt. She would have to go through labor before that would happen.

When I had my first miscarriage I called everyone back to say, "I lost the baby." Yep. When I had my second miscarriage I called everyone again.
I held the baby in my hand TR. It was a tiny baby. All organ systems were there. Fingers, toes, face, eyes, a tiny rump.
It is only a baby when it can survive on it's own then?

TR, if your water breaks you ARE in labor. You may not have contractions but it does constitute labor.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:26 PM
******************
Not if you have an incompetent cervix.

TR, 4:10p: No, c-section wasn't her only option. Her cervix was already dilated, her water broken, and her baby was a max of 1#. She could have coughed and the baby would have slipped out.

Actually, I don't believe she had a pba. Makes no sense. Unnecessary and potentially dangerous medical procedure when all that had to be done if she was bent on delivering NOW was get up and walk a little.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 10, 2008 4:25 PM
*****************************
And you talked with her doctor when - ?

Oh TR, you are hopeless. I'll pray for you. I hope that doesn't offend you.

Hubby's home! Good night!

Kristen, I second the motion!

"If the baby's death is imminent then why kill it? I just don't get it!!"

I personally think it's cruel to expect someone to carry a pregnancy for 9 months knowing it is dying and having to explain it to everyone. Not everyone wants to be a martyr and you shouldn't force that upon others.

sorry, but at 22 weeks it doesn't matter if you have an incompetent cervix or not. My baby was 22 weeks when we lost her and she was 8 inches and 9 oz. If she gave birth the first time she easily would have been able to give birth to that baby even if they had given him or her a few more weeks for better survival. Like I said earlier, she didn't want that baby, not enough. Call me stupid all you want Tex, sticks and stones....

that baby wasn't dying.

"Unnecessary and potentially dangerous medical procedure when all that had to be done if she was bent on delivering NOW was get up and walk a little."

Then maybe she could have bled to death because after all a dead woman with two children is better then a live woman with just one!

On that note, do you think God makes people infertile to punish them?

No she was saying what's the point of terminating if the child is going to die anyway.

What is it with you abortion advocates that at the first sign that a baby is sick in danger or less than perfect that you scream for it to get its brains sucked out? And you call it "compassion".

Imaine if emergency medical services worked that way. All you'd need in an ambulance is a shotgun. Just go to the scene and blow the patient's brains out. Presto! No more suffering patients!

Christina, right!

And sorry, but it is SICKENING that ANY woman would be "thankful" to have been offered the choice to snuff her kid.

Remember "Sophie's Choice", anybody? Only in "Sophie's Choice 2008", Meryl Streep isn't traumatized at all. She becomes a Nazi sympathizer and never shuts up about how grateful she was that she got to choose the time and place of her daughter's demise instead of being left guessing.

"Joyride" Abortion = joyful life. That's Vogue for you. The Journal of Shallow Living. When "joy" comes from getting your baby's brains sucked out instead of holding and comforting him.

I know someone who had her placenta detach from the uterine wall at 18 weeks. Her baby had no hope of survival, but the hospital still made a point of showing her the dying fetus on ultrasound. By the time they found a doctor willing to perform the abortion, she was already unconscious from the blood loss. Her husband had to consent to the abortion. It saved her life.

Sorry to interrupt but does anyone have a link to the new pictures Bethany has of whose-who?

reality, that's different. If it comes down to the life/death of the mother, we bend.

reality, there's a world of difference between taking emergency medical action to save the woman's life and killing her baby in the middle of premature labor because Mom doesn't want to take the risk that he'll live a few hours.

There's no need to rush a dying baby to the NICU. Rick Santorum's son, Gabriel, was born prematurely due to life-threatening maternal health problems, and the family held him and let him bask in their love for his short life.

This "Vogue" thing is about trying to make abortion seem Nice. It's something Nice Mommies do. See the Nice Mommy? She killed HER baby. There now! It can't be such a bad thing, if this Nice Mommy did it!

Jess, the link is on the main page, right side, in the "discussion" box. Click "snap..."

heather and Christina ---

I didn't know you'd be willing to admit that abortion saves lives.

Reality,

A placenta detaching from a uterine wall is a medical emergency as there can be massive hemorrhage, depending on the degree of detachment.
Your friend required emergency surgery, likely to be abdominal surgery, and any OB/GYN could have performed it legally and safely in a hospital. In fact, this is just the type of surgery they perform. There would be no need to hunt for an abortionist.
It sounds more likely a doctor on call could not get in quickly enough and your friend's acute condition quickly became critical. Exactly what one would expect in this situation. Its also possible the severity of her condition was not immediately recognized. The ultrasound was likely being used to diagnose exactly what her problem was, not to cruelly observe her dying baby. Thankfully she survived. Surgery would have been performed with our without her husband's consent.

Just an added note, I have worked in hospitals, both Catholic and non-Catholic before and after Roe v Wade. I have never seen a situation where any woman suffering an obstetrical emergency has ever been allowed to die or where everything necessary to save her life was not done. Women could always obtain the care they needed legally, in properly equipped hospitals, for health or life threatening issues. This included abortion.
Roe v Wade did not suddenly enable women to have abortions to save their lives. They always had the legal right. I in fact know of one such abortion occurring in a Catholic hospital prior to Roe.

reality, but it's different from an elective abortion!! We only make exceptions for that reason!! THAT'S IT!

Reality -

Im guessing you weren't around then, but at one point, a few nutty-bars popped in here to tell Jill she was a "pro abort" and a "fraud" because she supports abortion in circumstances like you mentioned.

There ARE people out there who think its better for a woman to die than abort... but I think the only one on this site who agreed with them was HisMan - and needless to say - he's hardly the one to measure the characters of the rest of the regulars here with.

On another note- Im still pro choice, but i despise "women's magazines" - and a serious story (whether I support her choice or not) is the WRRONNNNNG place for the "zomgs! dont you just HAVE TO HAVE THAT SKIRT?!?!! Its like.. SO IN!" crap.

I know. Most of these babies could survive.

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 3:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Oh my...
It's Heather; Medicine Woman

Amanda,

In this situation, which can occur at any point in the pregnancy including full term, an emergency c-section is performed and the fetus removed dead or alive. Sometimes the baby can be saved, sometimes not. This is not an abortion in the classic sense, where an attempt will be made at a D&E or PBA. There is never, and never has there ever been, any question but that life saving surgery will be performed to save the life of the mother.

Women have tragically suffered this obstetrical complication since time began and thankfully emergency surgery can increase the woman's chance of survival. Unless I hear it directly from the "nutty bars" themselves, I will have a hard time believing they would oppose emergency surgery to save a bleeding woman's life. And if they do who cares? Hospitals will continue to do what they've always done in these emergency situations.

Oh my, it's Fetus Fetish.

Mary, thank you.

Oh my, it's Fetus Fetish.

Posted by: heather at January 10, 2008 6:10 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You don't know what "fetish" means, do you?
Why do you think I call pro-lifers "fetus fetishists?"

How about this? Miss Piggy?

That way, I would KNOW who it was.

Heather,

You're welcome. As always nice to see you.

We should also keep in mind there are people who because of religious beliefs oppose any type of medical intervention, or use of blood products.
Again, they are entitled to their beliefs and I certainly consider these beliefs extreme, but I respect their right to hold these beliefs and I am in no way concerned that they will effect any medical care that I may need, emergency or otherwise.

Amanda- has anyone ever told you that you look like Idina Menzel? Gorgeous!

You can pretend a fertilized egg is a *baby* if you want to. I can think its an idea only an idiot would present and expect to be taken seriously.

VIVA LA IDIOTS!!!

Oh, come on. Petri dish with an embryo versus a 2 month old baby. what are you going to pick in a fire?

Amanda,

I agree that regardless of you view of abortion, celebrating it in a magazine is unbelievably tasteless.

Christina, you're point about "Look at the Nice Mommy..." is so right on. We hear from the other side all the time that abortion is not an easy choice. That it is difficult and in some ways tragic even if you believe it is the right choice at the time. We have also been told that there are no Pro ABORTS...but when I see this magazine, that is the only term I can think of. Glamorizing something that is so serious, trivializing it by placing it on the same scale as fingernail polish and purse choices could only be done by people who are not pro choice, but pro ABORTION...

I mean for Lord have Mercy on us...in the same breath that they tell us she killed her child, they also tell us where she bought her skirt?!?!? How twisted is that?

It seems to me that this is a point for our side in pointing out how extreme the other side can be...

I killed my daughter and all I got was this Kei Camisole...

Aww Erin, thank you so much. One other person has told me I looked like her, we both have that "ethnic" nose thing going on, but I can't sing a note, or dance - and she's amazing.
I would SO not mind being married to Taye Diggs either..... *sigh*

Somehow this whole group of regulars ended up being a bunch of lookers, you're super cute! =)

MK - I will bring you back a camel* from Morocco. Its a promise.

*disclaimer: it may be not be a real one, or actual size)

Amanda,

They always look like they are smiling :)

Hey,

Am I wrong or do prolifers and prochoicers actually agree about this post...the magazine article clearly crossed a line and was really in poor taste.

I don't think I read any one saying thumbs up for Vogue...

The woman clearly loves her child, and would have loved her other child had things not gone terribly wrong. She had to make a harsh, pragmatic decision about a doomed, WANTED pregnancy.

Instead of second-guessing the woman and her specialists - without the benefit of facts, education, or experience - why don't you all go thank the deity of your choice thay you DIDN'T have to make that decision.

MK,

I think it very interesting to note that TV legal commentator Nancy Grace, who was 47 years old, refused a "selective reduction" of her twin pregnancy when advised she had a problem with her cervix. She saw another specialist who told her her cervix was fine.
Ms. Grace required emergency surgery to save her life. Her twins were delivered prematurely by c-section because she developed pulmonary edema. Another example of how hospitals will do what is necessary to save the life of the mother.
Thankfully both babies and mother are doing fine.

What part of 'wasnt in labor' confuses you? The only option would have been a c section and if the fetus wasnt viable then whats the point, beyond putting the woman through major surgery when she didnt have to be? We keep coming back to your really nasty attitude towards the woman who went through this and your insistance that she was 'wrong' without knowing anything at all about the circumstances.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:19 PM

TR, if your water breaks you ARE in labor. You may not have contractions but it does constitute labor.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:26 PM
.....................................................

No, you are not in labor simply because your water breaks. Contractions are the definition of labor.

FetusFascist,

We don't know for certain the baby was indeed doomed, Ms. Campbell assumed it. Ms.Campbell could have been admitted to a high risk maternal care unit and received what care she and her unborn child needed.
Labor could have been induced if necessary. If the baby was indeed too premature she could have refused heroic measures and allowed only palliative care. This would have been considerably more humane.

Obviously you dont. What would be the options if she wasnt in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasnt viable?

Give birth to it and say goodbye? What is your point exactly TR?

Posted by: Elizabeth at January 10, 2008 4:13 PM
....................................

Give birth to it when? After a dangerous labor induction? When the woman's body finally expells the the rotting fetus? Seems more medically sane to abort the pregnancy and attempt to preserve the woman's ability to gestate safely and successfully in the future. My niece was a dry birth. My sister had 6 miscarriages after that experience. She had to have her cervix sown shut to gestate my nephew. He was premature and has issues due to his premature birth.

"On another note- Im still pro choice, but i despise "women's magazines" - and a serious story (whether I support her choice or not) is the WRRONNNNNG place for the "zomgs! dont you just HAVE TO HAVE THAT SKIRT?!?!! Its like.. SO IN!" crap."

When I'm sad, I find putting on a nice outfit cheers me up. I do think it a bit odd of a place to promote the clothing. It was just an odd placement.

Mary --

Your friend required emergency surgery, likely to be abdominal surgery, and any OB/GYN could have performed it legally and safely in a hospital. In fact, this is just the type of surgery they perform. There would be no need to hunt for an abortionist.

She required a "partial-birth abortion," and the two obstetricians there at the time were unwilling to do it (I guess because the fetus was dying but not dead). The nurses had to call in a third doctor, who performed the abortion just in time.

The ultrasound was likely being used to diagnose exactly what her problem was, not to cruelly observe her dying baby.

According to her, it was cruel. The nurse made a point of showing her the ultrasounds and pointing everything out for her. Perhaps it wasn't intentional, but it was traumatizing for her.

And then, after the abortion -- and this obviously has nothing to do with the hospital -- some members of her extended family actually had the nerve to tell her that she shouldn't have aborted. She hasn't spoken to them since.

When I had my first miscarriage I called everyone back to say, "I lost the baby." Yep. When I had my second miscarriage I called everyone again.
I held the baby in my hand TR. It was a tiny baby. All organ systems were there. Fingers, toes, face, eyes, a tiny rump.
It is only a baby when it can survive on it's own then?

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 4:28 PM
..........................................

You 'lost' the baby? Where did you lose it? Did you try the lost and found?
No matter what words you used, you were conveying the fact that your body had aborted your pregnancy and there wasn't going to be any baby.
And yes. It totally sucks when a wanted pregnancy ends without your consent.

Sally,

Nothing says the fetus would have been rotting. It may have been alive and viable. Inducing labor would more likely preserve the woman's ability to gestate in the future, whether than unnaturally dilatating the cervix and risking the very incompetence you say your sister suffered from.
It sounds like your sister had an incompetent cervix which can now be treated with cerclage, a surgical procedure that puts a "stitch" in the cervix to tighten it. It may or may not always work well.

FetusFascist,

We don't know for certain the baby was indeed doomed, Ms. Campbell assumed it. Ms.Campbell could have been admitted to a high risk maternal care unit and received what care she and her unborn child needed.
Labor could have been induced if necessary. If the baby was indeed too premature she could have refused heroic measures and allowed only palliative care. This would have been considerably more humane.

Posted by: Mary at January 10, 2008 7:37 PM
.................................................................

Labor induction is a health risk to a woman that abortion does not impose. I would imagine that the woman's actual doctor was a bit more informed about her particular case than you.
A real doctor would consider the reproductive health of his patient over a doomed fetus. As well as s/he should.

"And then, after the abortion -- and this obviously has nothing to do with the hospital -- some members of her extended family actually had the nerve to tell her that she shouldn't have aborted. She hasn't spoken to them since."

Those are some horrible people to tell her that. That's about the equivalent of someone saying that a person who miscarried brought it on themselves by not living healthier or whatever. I kind of hope they have to walk a mile in her shoes one day.

Does Jill believe in abortion to save a woman's life? Say if your daughter, Jill, was to have a problem with the pregnancy in its early stages that would cause her death, would you support her choice to abort?

Reality,

They took the time to perform a PBA on an unconscious hemorrhaging patient? Why didn't they just open her up and get the baby and the placenta out, and fast? Whether on not the fetus was dead, immediate surgery would have been performed by any OB/GYN. They were going to let your friend bleed to death? I hope she got a good lawyer and hauled them before the medical board.

I have no doubt the ultrasounds were cruel and traumatizing, but were necessary to diagnose her condition. It was also important for her to know exactly what was wrong, which is why the nurse would point it out. Pregnant women may bleed for any number of reasons. I suffered a spontaneous hemorrhage with my third pregnancy and an ultrasound determined I had a low lying placenta. The doctor was concerned about possible miscarriage. I did not consider this cruel but necessary to determine exactly what was going on.
Her family members should be told to take a flying leap. Their ignorance and insensitivity is appalling. They're doing her the biggest favor they can by staying out of her life.

This (the cover story) was obviously a wanted pregnancy that went wrong. The doctor did what was necessary for the woman in question, and the fetus was not remotely viable. Any sane person wouldn't have a problem with the PBA in this case.

Whether or not the fetus was "born" is irrelevant, because it wasn't viable. People who know the meaning of viability wouldn't harp about possible survival rates, it's ridiculous.

What is wrong with "nature taking its course?" I have friends that knew they were pregnant with a baby with anencephaly and she was carried to term and delivered and lived an hour. She was named Grace and was given more love than I have ever seen.
Another friend went into labor at 22 weeks and that baby was delivered and died in Mommy's arms. What is wrong with that? There is a certain dignity in allowing others to die naturally.

Posted by: Carla at January 10, 2008 3:41 PM
******************************
She was dealing with an incompetent cervix and her water had already broken. She did what she and her doctor thought was best. Why do you imagine you should be second guessing her and pretending you know more about what she 'should' have done than she did?

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 3:54 PM

*********

Exactly! The person who thinks that a "baby" can be delivered at 22 wks gestation is either talking about a fantastically rare episode, or is simply... lying. And we know how often anti-choicers lie. The survival rate at that gestational age is what, 15%, if that?

Sally,

Unnaturally dilatating a cervix and and cutting a fetus up and pulling it out presents risks, including incompetent cervix. Induced labor is a more natural process.
You're right Sally, a real doctor would consider the reproductive risks to the patient and take every effort to minimize them.

What would be the options if she wasn't in labor and her water had already broken and they already knew the fetus wasn't viable?

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:11 PM

And HOW did the doctors know it wasn't viable?

And about my admonition to Heather and Jasper... Like I said I don't see anything offensive in their posts on this subject. You look like a screaming lunatic, sorry but you do...

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:18 PM

Um, the doctors would have known the fetus wasn't viable because the chances of it being viable are almost nil at that gestational age (22-23 wks gestation).

Jasper asked TexasRed "When can we put you out of your misery" at at January 10, 2008 3:50 PM. For some reason, this does not seem to bother you. But you are bothered by the fact that a nonviable fetus was aborted. A threat to a sentient, typing human being, though, doesn't bother you. So like a true hypocrite. Gosh--really!

They took the time to perform a PBA on an unconscious hemorrhaging patient?

It didn't take as much time as it would have to perform a hysterotomy. This was an emergency procedure, done quickly with dilators, not a two-day procedure with laminaria.

It did not matter that her cervix might be compromised, because she is not planning on having anymore children anyway.

The option would be to put her in a high risk maternal care unit where she and the baby would be monitored by specialists. She could have labor induced if necessary. If the baby was too premature she would have the option of palliative care. If the baby had a chance, she would have the option of intensive care.

"At 23 weeks the chance of viability is about 15%"

Hey, it's something, an abortion offers 0%.

Posted by: rosie at January 10, 2008 3:55 PM
************************************************
There is 85% chance of 'no chance at all' at 23 weeks, and even more than that at 22 weeks. If the fetus isnt viable it doesnt matter if the woman gives birth or has an abortion.

Posted by: TexasRed at January 10, 2008 4:06 PM

************

Yeah, but these basic facts don't seem to matter to people who are on their "hate women" platform. :(

Sally,

Nothing says the fetus would have been rotting. It may have been alive and viable. Inducing labor would more likely preserve the woman's ability to gestate in the future, whether than unnaturally dilatating the cervix and risking the very incompetence you say your sister suffered from.
It sounds like your sister had an incompetent cervix which can now be treated with cerclage, a surgical procedure that puts a "stitch" in the cervix to tighten it. It may or may not always work well.

Posted by: Mary at January 10, 2008 7:48 PM
......................

Induction is unnaturally dilating the cervix through the use of potentially dangerous and unnatural drugs.
Left up to the women's body to expel the fetus, it would most probably be rotted to some degree.
My sister was rendered with an incompetent cervix due to giving birth well after the amniotic fluid had been expelled.

TR, I think you need to step back and take a break. I know you think Heather and Jasper are "hate filled" but you sound just like them to the other extreme. So if you don't want to be considered in the same company you should cool it.

Posted by: Kristen at January 10, 2008 4:07 PM

All TexasRed is saying is that nonviable fetuses are simply that--nonviable fetuses, and that the health and welfare of women should take priority over nonviable fetuses. She is saying that fetus of 22-23 wks gestation is nonviable because it only has about a 15% chance of surviving outside the uterus (which is basically nil).

In return for presenting this useful information to the board, she has been hatefully attacked by crazy people. For some reason, you don't have a problem with her being attacked by crazy people, but you have a problem with her presenting useful information to the board. Makes me wonder about you, but not at all about her.

Reality,

Your friend may have had a D&E abortion, involving pulling the fetus out in pieces and scraping the uterus, though again any OB/Gyn could have done it and an abortionist would not be necessary. Its likely the baby was pulled out a piece at a time. This would be done on an emergency basis, alive or not.
Believe me, this would have been done and fast. I have seen it on more than a few occasions and any OB/GYN would be justified doing this in the event of an emergency.

Like I said, if 2 OBs stood around and refused to perform an emergency life saving procedure, then I hope your friend had them hauled before the medical board.

Carol,

You think aborting late term is natural? Forcibly dilatating a cervix is natural?
Pitocin is used to induce labor and is found in the human body. It gradually and more naturally dilatates the cervix and increases uterine contraction. I've used this drug for years. Woman can expel living babies early in gestation, I have seen it happen. They didn't survive, but they certainly weren't "rotting".
Also with better diagnostic techniques, labor can be induced, or surgical intervention can occur so as to avoid a "rotting" baby.

I'm very sorry to hear about your sister. Women have also been rendered with incompetent cervixes after abortion, trauma, or for reasons unknown.

Texas Red:

Are you a hot dog? Your brain sure implies it. I mean you say some pretty mindless gush.

I mean, back in NY where I'm from, when we wanted a Zweigle's red hot dog (as opposed to a Zweigle's white hot dog) we said, "give me a Texas Red or a Texas Hot".

Are you from New York? Naw, can't be, cuz, based on your obvious low IQ you can't be very hot and no one that stupid ever went to Texas from NY. (However, I do know of one real stupid female that went from Arkansas to NY).

You must be a hot dog. Perhaps you adopted that name on a field trip to NY when you were in Jr.HS? Let me guess.....it was your first time.

Hey Jasper. I see Texass Red called you an imbecile. I wonder how long it took him to figure out how to spell that correctly?

Yes, Texas Red, more faux manliness in the vain of Cameron, Hal, and yes, SoMG. I'm sure all of these dudes are over compensating for some rather small part(s). (Hence naming himself after a hot dog).

Well, mine is incompetent for reasons that I do know!

LUCKY ME!!!

And woman have babies, put them up for adoption, or abort them, I will probably not be able to have a child naturally.

I ROCK...
::hint of sarcasm::

Anna,

Talk about a "hate women" platform, what about sex selection abortions that dispose mainly of females?

Hisman,

What do anyone's "parts" big or small have to do with this discussion?

Mary:

They dont. His is a hateful, bitter old man.

Midnite,

I'm very sorry to hear that. Has your doctor discussed cerclage with you? I sincerely hope this is an option for you.

Geez. These insults remind me SO much of middle school/high school. I was kind of hoping things had changed a bit since I left, but no such luck, eh?

Cerclage? I dont know what that is exactly.

He told me to look into possibly freezing my eggs.

Well, I did, & my insurance doesnt cover it, and niether I, or my parents could afford it. So, needless to say, it is not an option (unless I win the lotto).

Hello Heather B.!!

Actually, things did change for a while, believe it or not. And then nasty HisMan slithered in again...

Per Carol:
Induction is unnaturally dilating the cervix through the use of potentially dangerous and unnatural drugs.

Carol,
Gee doesn't this sound just a little like what you call a "safe abortion"????? Having your cervix unnaturally dialated and then having a baby ripped out of your womb sound potentially dangerous and unnatural. So I guess you agree that abortion is unsafe. Yeahhhh!!!!

Per Carol:
Left up to the women's body to expel the fetus, it would most probably be rotted to some degree.

Carol,
I see you hopped on Sally's "rotting fetus" wagon. Please. How many times do we have to be subjected to this riduculous statement?? The article stated her fetus wasn't viable. Not dead. I would assume that since her cervix wasn't competent natural labor would have gone pretty swiftly. Why subject a woman to have to make a decision for a PBA when her body has the natural instinct to birth on it's own. Was this woman given the opportunity to grieve for this baby?? Hold it, care for it, say goodbye??

Sally,
Why is labor induction unsafe??? They do it all the time for full-term babies.

I assume this woman if needed could have been given pitocin to stimulate and expedite her labor if necessary. How do you know her body would not naturally start contractions on their own within a timely manner? How do you think women deliverd babies who died in the womb prior to ulrasound?

Please.

Oh, well...shame I missed it :(

Yeah it was really nice for a while, then like I said, some nasty people showed up.

Midnite,

Ask your doctor if a "cervical stitch" is a consideration for you. We would put these in women who were pregnant and had incompetent cervixes in an effort to keep the cervix closed until viability.
I know nothing of your circumstances but you may want to talk to your doctor about this. Hopefully it may be an option for you. Sadly, it isn't for all women.

Well...maybe I'll stay for a bit...see how long it takes before I want to break things :p

Mary, they want to cut out half of my cervix. He said "if you ever get pregenant naturally, you'll have an 85% chance of miscarrying".

I never really thought I wanted a child until he told me I probably couldnt.

So I'm starting to think HisMan just get drunk and belligerent around this time of night and comes here just to vent as needed.

I think it would best if ALL of us just ignored him unless he is actually saying something relevant.

Yes/No?

I completely agree Amanda.

Getting more excited about your trip each day??

Midnite,

I'm so very sorry to hear that and for you. As I said I have no knowledge of your circumstances but you may want to ask if this would ever be an option.

I never really thought I wanted a child until he told me I probably couldnt.

Posted by: midnite678 at January 10, 2008 9:21 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At this time there are 150,000 "hard to place" children available for adoption in foster care who need someone like you.
Every day 50,000 children die of simple maladies like diarrhea because they were born into third-world poverty. They need someone like you.
You want a child? Go get one. You'd be doing BOTH OF YOU a favor.

I respect the religious beliefs of Hisman and have defended him in the past. I hope this post was an aberration and that future posts will reflect on him as a man of religious conviction.

"You want a child? Go get one. You'd be doing BOTH OF YOU a favor."

Right. Because its that easy to adopt. Especially internationally.

Oh wait! No its not.

Mary, I understand - but he did the same thing last night. He didn't come to have a conversation, or even a heated debate, he came just to pick fights and be vulgar.

I hope you believe I'd have the same exact feelings if he was pro choice.

Laura:

I probably would adopt, but the fact that I want to go through pregnancy and experience it, saddens me. I know I could love a child, even if we shred no genes, but I would always wish I would have had a biological one.

Plus, I dont see an adoption agency giving me a baby with my medical history, and as Amanda stated, it's expensive.

I'd love to be able to adopt (or at least foster) children someday...and even (GASP!) have one or two of my own.

And just to point out something else.

I'd dislike HisMan if he was PL, PC, no opinion, or an alien. He's just evil, pretending to be a "Christian". He uses religion to mock people, ridicule them, and put them down.

It's people like him that turned me away from Religion and keep me from going back to it.

Heather B and Midnite -

my plan has always been to have 1 or 2 of my own and then adopt down the road when i had some more money (hopefully).

Its getting hard trying to decide between starting to head in that direction, or getting myself through grad school first

Amanda,

I have no doubt you would feel the same no matter where Hisman stood on the abortion issue.
My comment was directed at Hisman and the sincere hope his future comments will reflect on him as a man of religious conviction.
I found his post tacky and offensive.

Amanda -

It used to be that I NEVER wanted any children of my own (for a number of reasons) but in the past year...something changed.

Heather:

Your going to be one busy mommy. I'll come help :-)

And I find it particularly irritating that to make posts that require a break between lines, I have to use the HTML format on LiveJournal because I was stupid and broke my 'enter' key on my laptop :(

Midnite -
Okay!

Awwww, well if it make you feel any better my number key for seven sticks b/c I accidently dropped a popcorn kernnel in my lap top...

I lost my temper when I was trying to get my work in before the deadline and took it out on my poor laptop...

hehehe, I've done that before when I had a 25 page research paper due, and it decided to go into "hibernation" by itself.. I lost 7 pages of work, and actually launched the lap top across the room. But it still works, and I remember to save every three minutes now...

My internet connection (which I needed to work) was being super-lame. I'm glad the enter key is the only part of my laptop that broke....

Heather - I understand, my sister feels that way too...and my brother? he's 36!! still no kids! I've been hoping for a nieceling since I was 10 year old!!

me on the other hand?

Ive wanted to have kids since the moment I knew about having kids. Always been very maternal. But, thank god, rational enough to know it wasn't a good idea to have one when i was too young. I babysat a lot and worked at a daycare for years instead.

Amanda -

I seriously don't know WHAT made me change my mind about having kids. Haha, that's not the only thing that's changed either. I used to be adamant about the fact that I'd abort if I were to get pregnant at this point in my life and, while it would still be something I would take into consideration...I'd consider other options as well.

Midnite,

I am sorry to hear about your situation..you're a very sweet person and I think you would make a good mommy.

You can come over and play with mine for a while if you'd like? She's ummm..hilarious and you guys would have fun.

But seriously...there are soo many children who need love. I DO know the whole biological area is important...but there are so many babies/kids who don't have anyone to love them. When I get financially stable and everything...I would love to adopt.

Thanks Elizabeth.

If all else fails, I guess I will end up adopting a child. It's just the fact that every guy I know (& have ever dated) has been adament about having children one day. And I just keep thinking "who is going to want me when I broken/damaged?"

HeatherB "and, while it would still be something I would take into consideration..."

knowing what you know about the cruelity of abortion, why would kill the child instead of giving him up for adoption?

Jasper -

I said it was an option I would consider, along with the others. I didn't say I most definitely would. My decision in such a situation as an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy will largely depend on the circumstances I'm in at the time.

Awww Midnite!!! You are so NOT broken or damaged..and the guy who WILL want you is the one you're going to be with and he will have a big enough heart to want to adopt as well. He will want to have a family with you, and a family is not defined by biological terms..it's defined by the amount of love people have for each other.

:hugs:

Midnite -

It's just the fact that every guy I know (& have ever dated) has been adament about having children one day. And I just keep thinking "who is going to want me when I broken/damaged?"

---

I could introduce you to some friends of mine who don't want children, at least not of their own :p

All joking aside (and you know I don't mean anything by it), you're a wonderful person and being "broken/damaged" doesn't change that.

Yeah I know that Elizabeth. It's just one of those bad thoughts and even nightmares that I have.

midnite - you may be amazed how little that would matter to the right guy. Where women tend to feel attached to their baby during pregnancy, it usually doesn't hit home for a guy until he SEES the baby - so an adopted baby would be just as loved as his own.

heather B,

and what kind of circumstances would require you to slaughter your own flesh and blood?

Thanks Heather. I know it shouldnt matter, but I know that it does to some people.

As for your friends, are they cute?

Midnite...I know about those pesky little bad thoughts...mine always pop up at that certain time of the month..

Jasper -

Considering the fact that less than a year ago I was stating that I would, without a shadow of a doubt, have an abortion if I were to become pregnant at this point in my life, be happy with the fact that I'm leaning more toward continuing with any unplanned pregnancy that may occur in the future and putting the baby up for adoption :).

Well...some of them are, Midnite. I might have to do some digging to find one that's cute AND smart AND straight AND doesn't partake in certain illegal activities, though....

Heather B.

What would your reasons be for you not keeping the baby? I'm just curious...

Elizabeth -

By "not keeping the baby" are you referring to considering abortion as an option, or not keeping it and raising it?

Heather B.

Amen. Thats great, may God Bless you.

Amanda:

I didnt know that about guys and bonding with babies. That's interesting.

Heather:
HAHAHA, I know what you mean...

Jasper:
Be thankful she is saying she "would with no shadow of a doubt have an abortion" to "I'd consider other options"

JESUS MAN

Not keeping it and raising it.

oops, that should read she's not saying

Elizabeth -

That's what I thought you meant, but I just wanted to be sure :).

As for the circumstances, it'd mostly be financial issues. I'm a college student (well, I will be again once I go back) and so is the significant other. We both have rather lofty goals for ourselves and keeping and raising a child at this point would make achieving said goals incredibly difficult. I know that there are couples out there who DO manage it (and many kudos to them) but....

Don't know if anyone has read the article, but I thought I'd share some thoughts...

I've been subscribed to Vogue for a while now, mostly for the imagery and fashion. I don't usually read the articles (things like wrinkle remedies and the reintroduction of the supermodel aren't exactly relevant to me), but I read this one multiple times.

Things that struck me about the piece:

1. Her willingness to admit her love/ attachment to her unborn “Bean.” Coming from Vogue, which tries to keep a cool, calm, and (at times) distant tone with its readers, I was a little surprised with this. I have to give the Vogue staff a little credit here for daring to explore this aspect.

2. This brings me to her closing line, which reads that the PBA, if the reader wishes to call it that, was born out of love. (She literally gives the reader permission to use the term in reaction to her story.)

3. She doesn’t exactly limit the idea of her daughter suffering to a few weeks in ICU...Campbell hints at her opposition to suffering that could continue for “years.” (What she means exactly is still opaque, though she previously mentions the risk of permanent brain damage and physical defects such as blindness).

4. Her voicing concern over the chipping away of Roe v. Wade. Here she asks the pro-choice readers to pay close attention to the recent pro-life movement/ legislation and realize the “true origins” of the term “Partial Birth Abortion.” She has a bit of an urgent and pleading tone here.

5. Her recollection of feeling she had literally “failed” her daughter. This broke my heart, because no woman should have to feel like a failure for not being able to carry to term. What bothered me personally (read: my personal opinion), was that she seems to use this partly as justification for the procedure.

6. The article was given priority placement at the beginning of the magazine. Vogue is easily 75% + ads, and personal stories are often sandwiched towards the back between health food articles and price information for the products featured in the editorials. This was clearly intentional...whether to reach out to readers with similar experiences or cause an emotional stir with pro-choicers and liberals, I don’t know.

I don’t know what to make of this article; namely, its function within Vogue magazine. It’s an emotional, thought-provoking article to be sure, but I can’t help but feel Anna Wintour took this woman’s plea for understanding as an opportunity to manipulate the emotions of some readers. Vogue is one of the most intentional magazines in the world, after all.

Sorry if this doesn't interest anyone, but I felt this article was rather significant for Vogue.

Thanks for your input Jenna, please visit again...

Should the father have any rights or say in any of this?

Lord, listen to my prayer:
turn your ear to my appeal.
You are faithful, you are just; give answer.
Do not call your servant to judgement
for no one is just in your eyes.

The enemy pursues my soul;
he has crushed my life to the ground;
he has made me dwell in darkness
like the dead, long forgotten.
Therefore my spirit fails;
my heart is numb within me.

I remember the days that are past:
I ponder your works.
I muse on what our hand has wrought
and to you I stretch out my hands.
Like a parched land my soul thirsts for you.

Lord make haste and answer;
for my spirit fails within me.
Do not hide your face
lest I become like those in the grave.

In the morning let me know your love
for I put my trust in you.
Make me know the way I should walk;
to you I lift up my soul.

Rescue me Lord from my enemies;
I have fled to you for refuge.
Teach me to do your will
for you, O Lord, are my God.
Let your good spirit guide me
in ways that are level and smooth.

For your name's sake, Lord, save my life;
in your justice save my soul from distress.

Psalm 143: 1-11

Midnite,

And I just keep thinking "who is going to want me when I broken/damaged?"

Exactly the kind of guy you want to want you...one who loves you, Ashley, not a body that give him offspring. You'll do fine. And the right guy is out there...

Heather B and Amanda,

When you guys switch over to the pro life side, (and I have no doubt that you will) do you promise to keep posting here? You'd be the best, best, best warriors for our side. I'd even ask Jill to make you moderators. The pay is great! (not)

My question is, what made the delivery of this baby safer by removing the child's brains?

I mean, what happened differently from the mother's physical perspective, to deliver a brainless dead baby than a live baby with all of her parts? I just don't get it. The child had to come out. What medical difference did killing it first make?

mk -

Nothing. My cousin had a high risk pregnancy with twins. They were born at 23 weeks and they are now 2. One never knows what will happen. We must always err on the side of life. The only reason to do a PBA is to deliver a dead baby. Even doctors conceed that there is never a reason for PBA and the quickest and safest way for a woman in risk is a C-Section. But by doing a C-Section you guarantee a chance for life for the baby.

I posted this on the other thread, but take a look at the "hisman" who is posting, and click on his name. The website that comes up is not Hisman's website. (Hisman's real website is: http://www.whatmustIdotobesaved.com

I have emailed Hisman personally to let him know his name is being used this way, and he should hopefully come here and clear his name.

No, you are not in labor simply because your water breaks. Contractions are the definition of labor.

Posted by: Sally at January 10, 2008 7:31 PM

MARY and/or JILL, can you please weigh in on this? My water broke (well, it was leaking) and I had no contractions, I was on my way to a checkup and told the doctor when I got there. They tested the fluid and the doctor said "Yep, you're in labor!" No contractions, no pain, but I was in labor. They had to give me the pitocin to bring on the contractions.

Kristen,

I put an email into my gynecologist...I'll let you know when he gets back to me...

Kristen - while the water breaking is considered the "onset" of labor, TRUE labor does not begin until the cervix reaches a certain point of dialation and contractions begin, even if they are mild and far apart. Sally's "definition" is sort of right but sort of wrong - labor is different for all women. Some women lose the mucus plug but don't actually give birth for another few days (while for some women that means THE BABY IS COMING NOW!!!) Some women have their water break, and go right in to active labor, while for others it may be 24 hours+.

I think the term labor ends up being used sort of arbitrarily to basically say "its time for the baby to come out!!" =)

Jess,

YOU ARE SO CUTE!!!!
And Zeke, you are breathtaking.

What did you guys do? Take a "really great looking" test before you could get on the site?

Mary, Laura, Hal...c'mon, what are you waiting for?

JENNA - please continue posting!

You're obviously very cool.

Doug

Amanda,

That's what I'm thinking too. If the water breaks you are supposed to go immediately to the hospital, but that's to prevent infection, not because the birth is imminent. I wonder if there even is a definition for when labor has truly begun.

I had contractions for 5 days with Mary Pat and even tho I was dilated 5, I got sent home. Was I in labor? Well, it sure felt like it...she came the next morning.

Amanda,

You are so right. All three of my labors were completely different. Although, it went faster with each one.

...wow...

please dont' tell my boyfriend I'm checking out Will

=)

Doug,

Who's Jenna and where has she posted...and you're a married man! behave ;)

Carla: What is wrong with "nature taking its course?" I have friends that knew they were pregnant with a baby with anencephaly and she was carried to term and delivered and lived an hour. She was named Grace and was given more love than I have ever seen. Another friend went into labor at 22 weeks and that baby was delivered and died in Mommy's arms. What is wrong with that? There is a certain dignity in allowing others to die naturally.

Carla, nothing at all is wrong with that, if it's what the woman wants. For the people you describe it sounds like it was the best way to go, without a doubt in my mind.

Doug

Amanda,

I know, right? He is absolutely drop dead gorgeous. Not that I'm looking. He's young enough to be my grandson!

Now if only we could match the way he delivers his message to his looks! I mean I love what the message is, but his delivery is sometimes hard to take. Not to mention his anti-Catholic bent. But his heart is in the right place...

MK, up above, Jenna posted quite thoughtfully about the Vogue article.

She ended with, Sorry if this doesn't interest anyone, but I felt this article was rather significant for Vogue.

I agree with much of what she said, and don't want her to think that nobody is interested in it or what she had to say.

"going to have a baby".

Not "I have a baby!"

Erin, though there is of course, "with child" as synonymous with being pregnant.

Our language is a wascally wabbit.

I probably would adopt, but the fact that I want to go through pregnancy and experience it, saddens me. I know I could love a child, even if we shred no genes, but I would always wish I would have had a biological one.
Plus, I dont see an adoption agency giving me a baby with my medical history, and as Amanda stated, it's expensive.

Midnite, just to let you know, it is SO common that the doctors are wrong about this. There are so many women who have been told they cannot have children, only to go on and have a few years later. I hope that this will be the case for you in the future when you are ready for children.

Secondly, there is a place called "sav-a-life" in Birmingham, where we at the CPC are supposed to refer young teens/women who are wanting to place their babies for adoption. I don't know much about the place but I believe what I heard was that they give shelter to these girls and help with their medical bills while they are pregnant and allow them to adopt to local people. I may be wrong, so forgive me if I've made an error. I know nothing of the cost if you one day were wanting to adopt one of these children, so I'd have to check into it, but I figure when you come over tomorrow, I could share any more information we've got (I can call the woman who runs the CPC...she'll know more about it). You might be interested in checking them out one day.

Also, a friend of mine was talking about a "foster to adopt" program, which is supposed to be much easier to afford...I really should look more into it so I can give you more info. Maybe I'll google it.

Ahhhhh Doug,

I see it now...hmmmm...where is the "whole article"?

HisMan: more faux manliness in the vain of Cameron, Hal, and yes, SoMG. I'm sure all of these dudes are over compensating for some rather small part(s). (Hence naming himself after a hot dog).

Heh, HisMan says that? Oh, the irony. Texas Red is a woman, by the way.

Okay,

This is my doctors answer...

This is more complicated than it looks after I read the short blurb that preceded your question. But, first of all, a broken water bag does not constitute labor. Labor is defined by uterine contractions causing changes; dilation, effacement or thinning; of the cervix. The problem with this case is the rupture at 22 weeks. She possibly had an option of ending the pregnancy because of potential concerns of infection or poor baby outcome or she may also have been infected already which possibly could lead to not only baby�s death but mom�s also. Without all the details, it is hard to say, and to put this in the category of partial birth abortion, I am not sure that is fair even though it could be easily fit into that category.

It actually prompts more questions than it answers however...

I'd like to read the whole article. Who chose to call this a PBA? How was it performed. What really caused her to "end" the pregnancy?

Jenna (thanks Doug) seems to be the only person here who has actually read the article.

JENNA,

If your still there, would you mind volleying some Q and A's about the article?

Vogue is easily 75% + ads, and personal stories are often sandwiched towards the back between health food articles and price information for the products featured in the editorials.

Hmmm.... maybe these actually are "The End Times."

Hey, hasn't Midnite's picture changed? Now she looks more like European royalty.

Anyone heard the phrase "Every time I find out a cute boy is a conservative, a little part of me dies"?

Stop posting adorable pictures of boys I'll never agree with!

I received an email back from Hisman, and this person is definitely not him.
So please forgive any of the comments that have come from the person posing as Hisman- they are not from the person we know.
*******************************************

Bethany,

I'll have to look into this and can't do it right now, although I have some suspicions. Please tell everyone that I haven't been on the website in months.

I've been out of town.

God Bless,

Well, that's good, then.

Though I must say, his impersonator has his Hisman impression pretty accurate :-P

Hey, hasn't Midnite's picture changed? Now she looks more like European royalty.

I'm startin' to think that you guys clipped these pictures from frames at target...now way you can all be this good looking! I switching my pic to one of Grace Kelly...

Erin,

The person did a some what of a good job. I got suspicous last night and shared my thoughts with Heather B. Anyhoo, I looked up is his old posts and paid attention to the tone. Needless to say this person was more hateful than ever. Also his name used to be HisMan and not it says Hisman.

HAHAHAHA, Thanks Doug. That was a really good self-esteem booster.

MK, No it did not come from Target. That's not even "that good of a picture" of me. It was taken in the woods, I'd been out there all freaking day sweating my s$s off, getting muddy and dirty: aka, riding four-wheelers in the woods..

I've never been told I look like Royalty, thats definitely a new one :-)

And Midnite,

I can't thank you enough. Texas Red is about all I can handle right now, especially after the blow up with the "girls"...

Then Martin, and Anna came on...I'm up to my earballs in insults.

It says moderator, not babysitter!

You did a really good job. Thanks so much!!!!!

Not a problem. Tis what I am here for :-)

I second the thanks Midnite! I wasn't even here and didn't even see the posts till you brought it to my attention. It really helps to have a little help. :)

"It really helps to have a little help" ...okay that was pretty redundant. I haven't had any coffee yet today. lol

Hey Midnite - the weather you had yesterday is here today!

Its raining buckets, sideways! And thundering ... I can't even think of a time there has ever been a thunderstorm like this in january in Boston!! From my office window, it looks like its almost night time.

crazy.

About the quote of the day-

I have Mark Morrow's article here: http://wordpress.com/tag/mark-morrow/

Simply READING his high-pitched whining made my eardrums bleed...

Amanda,

Sorry, I wouldnt wish that weather on anyone. So strange that is spawned a couple of tornados...

We're not even in Tornado Season yet...

I heard there were tornado warnings in Washington STATE, of all places...

Midnite,

I'm awful glad you're okay...

Yeah, I've been through my fair share of tornados. Although the worst was my freshman year of high school. I was on my way home with my friend and we saw the tunnel cloud drop about five miles in front of us. It started comming up 31, like a damn car. So, we got out and crawled up and underneath the interstate overpass. Her car was picked up and found about three miles away in someone's pool, lol. So, I got a great view of a tornado that night. It really does sound like a damn train

"Her car was picked up and found about three miles away in someone's pool, lol"

wow Midnite. we're lucky, we don't get tornados in Mass, just snow-storms and hurricanes.

Midnite, Amanda, Erin, Heather B.,

You guys have really been great the last couple of days. You've stuck around and helped me keep things together this week...and I know you did it for me. You're really wonderful. Just goes to prove what I've been saying all along. Pro choice does not mean "monster"...you've proven to be really good friends.

I keep telling people it takes guts to come on here when we're the enemies camp, and you guys have proven to me this week what guts really are.

This Hisman thing, TR, the "girls"...thru all of it you have stuck by me, and I thank you.

Well, I leave for a few hours to take care of school stuff (I'm going back, folks!) and get a few things from Wally-World...and there are tons more posts than when I left.

Heather B,

Is there really a place called Wally World?

Sorry, MK.

Wally World = Wal-Mart.

HB,
Ah...too funny. Sounded like something from the Flintstones...

Hey, where's your picture?

Picture? What picture?

Everyone is sending their pictures to Bethany. THere is a link on the right called "Snap: Who we are"...right under the "guidelines" which is right under the list of moderators...you've got to send her yours...

Oooh, okay. Hm. Have to find a decent one first...it's rare that I look good in a picture....

MK:

No problem. I have grown quite fond of you :-)

Jasper:
B'ham is rare, we get tornados and the "aftermath" of Hurricaines as well. Fun fact, a Hurricaine can spawn a tornado, but a tornado can not spawn a hurricaine. During Ivan and Katrina, I lost power, had the parking lot flood, and hurricain (category 1 or 2) strength winds in Birmingham.

We're special, we get TWO kinds of Natural Disasters :-)

somehow I doubt that...everyone up there is really really good looking. Wait til you see Zeke!

Which one is Zeke?

Will Duffy

Ooh...'kay :)

Wait, that cute guy is the horrible Zeke?

Wow, looks can be decieving...

no no, Zeke and Will Duffy are actually two different people.

This is Will Duffy:

And this is Zeke:

Zeke IS a cutie =/.

Ok, Will is cutie.

I'd agree with you on Zeke, but he has a HORRIBLE personality (IMO), so I dont find him attractive. Sorry...

Well, I meant just from a physical standpoint :p. I do agree, though.

Yeah, we got the leftovers of all that nasty here in Georgia. Though we did desperately need the rain.

Oh yeah, speaking of another got good thing; read in the paper today that the 6th homocide of the yeat took place on the 8th of this month. So eight days and 6 murders, we're off to a great start!!

*got = not

That's a murder every 32 hours...

WOW, that's really bad...

whos commiting all of the murders midnite?

The people who live in my fair city of Birmingham, AL.

It's mainly in the "not nice" areas of downtown. And it's basically black on black violence. The new mayor is supposed to implement some "grand idea" that will make the crime go down, and bring business and prosperity back to the "Magic City"...