American Psychiatric Assoc. prez: lesbian pro-abort feminist

slotman%201.gifNada Stotland, president-elect of the American Psychiatric Association, is a lesbian feminist who sits on the board of Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health.

An unbiased source to opine on post-abortive stress syndrome? Yeah, sure.

I googled Stotland after reading her shockingly calloused comments belittling men and women who suffer psychiatric after-effects of abortion in a January 7 Los Angeles Times story on men and PASS.

Stotland went so far as to say women who abort may be unstable. Yes, she said that, according to LAT....

Antiabortion activists have done that well, [Stotland] said. "They've succeeded in convincing a lot of the American public" that abortion leaves women wounded....

The concept of post-abortion trauma is hotly disputed. Several studies published in peer-reviewed medical journals suggest that women who have had abortions are more prone to depression or drug abuse. But the research does not prove cause and effect, Stotland said.

It may be, she said, that women who have abortions are more emotionally unstable in the first place.

Amazing, particularly coming from someone who thinks disallowing gays and lesbians from marrying inflicts "grave psychological harm." Yet there can be no grave psychological harm from aborting one's own child?

slotman%203.jpgNo, just the opposite, according to Slotman. A 1991 book she edited, Psychotherapeutic issues related to abortion, stated, "There is also evidence to suggest that... pregnancy and abortion contain the potential for maturation and personal growth."

And there it is again, from the same book: "Women who continue to manifest negative psychiatric sequelae after 6 months almost always have preexisting psychiatric conditions."

Conversely, Slotman testified in support of a bill before Congress to "expand studies looking at causes and treatment of postpartum depression," according to WebMD.

Clearly Slotman has an agenda to make pregnancy look bad and abortion good, and she's in a dangerous position to do just that. She is endangering men and women who suffer psychological consequences after abortion by stepping beyond invalidating their feelings, which is bad enough, to insulting those feelings.

[Photo 1 courtesy of the American Psychiatric Foundation; photo 2 courtesy of the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists]


Comments:

Funny, she seems to have all of the credentials and experience neccessary to qualify for that postion.

Heck, you guys are always quoting David Reardon - who also has sex with women, but doesn't have an MD, a degree in Psychology, a degree in Bioethics, or even a clue. (Mail-order diploma mill credentials should AT LEAST come with a clue...)

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 11, 2008 11:19 AM


thats great, they make a sociopath the American Psychiatric Association president....

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 11:26 AM


Jasper,

funny.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 11:28 AM


Laura, do you have a problem with the peer-reviewing process?

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 11:30 AM


Speaking of peer reviews...

For now, I have been given the go ahead to delete any comments that attack the poster instead of the post...

So if you see something posted, or rather DON'T see something you posted, you'll know why...

I hate to resort to this, but it's getting way out of control. Now with the Hisman episode, we feel it's time to take some action...

Thanks for understanding...

Please direct all complaints to brigidl@ilppc.org

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 11:34 AM


Okay,

I couldn't help myself...that email address is the Planned Parenthood Council...*bad, bad, bad, Mk...)

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 11:35 AM


Jill, I don't think your quotes are evidence of your accusations against this woman. In fact they sound very even-headed to me, and not at all anti-pregnancy. There have been cases in the news of post-partum depressed women killing their own children. Does not this merit some research if it can be prevented?

Sorry, Jill. This "article" smacks of desperation for something or someone to strike out at.

Posted by: Ray at January 11, 2008 11:36 AM


I had no idea that Janet Reno had an identical twin, who'd have thunk....

So she thinks birthing a child is psychologically damaging while aborting one isn't. That just defies logic.

Is her position on the board of Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health a paid position?

Posted by: LB at January 11, 2008 11:57 AM


Saying that those who "continue to manifest negative psychiatric sequelae after 6 months almost always have preexisting psychiatric conditions" should point us in the direction of treating those very real pre-existing conditions properly, instead of masking those conditions with a made-up diagnosis (PAS). Stating that we need to "expand studies looking at causes and treatment of postpartum depression" isn't anti-pregnancy, it is pointing out that postpartum depression is widespread and that women need better access to mental health resources for the well-being of themselves and their children.

Furthermore, being a lesbian and a feminist does not disqualify one from being a good psychologist, just as being a Christian does not disqualify one from being a good psychologist.

I agree with Ray here. Jill, you're grasping at straws with this one.

Posted by: anonymous at January 11, 2008 12:00 PM


Anonymous, where did Jill say she couldn't be a good psychologist? From where I am, it looks like she only said that she was not unbiased on the issue of abortion, and posted evidence of the woman's bias.

MK, haha that's funny!

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 12:06 PM


Anonymous and Rae, promoting psychological problems within pregnancy and negating psychological problems with abortion is clearly biased. It's not even logical.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 11, 2008 12:28 PM


*beats head against wall* There is no such think as PAS. It's PTSD. Trauma that occurs because of a surgical procedure is PTSD.

Also, why do you even feel you need to bring up the fact that she is a lesbian, Jill? If she was a straight woman, would you emphasize that she was straight?

Posted by: Erin at January 11, 2008 12:29 PM


No, Jill has posted lots of articles about how homosexuality and abortion go hand in hand. On the surface, it may sound like an oxymoron (because obviously lesbians don't get pregnant), but it really is not far fetched, when you search a little deeper into the other reasons behind supporting abortion and homosexuality.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 12:43 PM


There is no such think as PAS. It's PTSD. Trauma that occurs because of a surgical procedure is PTSD.

It's not the procedure that traumatizes them, Erin...it's what the procedure accomplished.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 12:44 PM


It's not the procedure that traumatizes them, Erin...it's what the procedure accomplished.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 12:44 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only a whack-job would claim that they had no idea what an abortion accomplishes, and that an abortion wasn't EXACTLY what they wanted when they shelled out good money for the privledge.

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 11, 2008 12:50 PM


Well, since everyone is depressed or has some sort of mental illness nowadays, then her claim can't really be said to be unfounded.

The "latest" is that 25% of depressed patients actually have bipolar disorder, and there is a new mental illness made up almost every day.

Posted by: Milehimama at January 11, 2008 12:54 PM


"and that an abortion wasn't EXACTLY what they wanted when they shelled out good money for the privledge."

what did they want then?

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 12:56 PM


Only a whack-job would claim that they had no idea what an abortion accomplishes, and that an abortion wasn't EXACTLY what they wanted when they shelled out good money for the privledge.

Many women really don't know how abortion will affect them once they have it. They don't anticipate those feelings of loss and hurt that they end up feeling. (many women have told me, "no one told me it would cause me this much pain even years later!).

They don't anticipate that years later they will see a picture of an unborn child and have to face reality about what they did, when the abortion clinics told them they were simply removing "the product of conception", or "the pregnancy". Why not let the woman see the pictures and decide for herself if it is simply a "product of conception"?

People will believe a lie, especially if that lie seems convenient for them at a certain time. And that is exactly what women do when they choose abortion, based on lies such as those.

Some women really don't know.

That doesn't make them stupid, or "whack jobs". It simply makes them ignorant on this issue. And it is precisely people like you, Laura, who subject women to the false information about abortion, that they are led to believe before having one.

By the way you didn't answer my question. Do you have a problem with the peer- reviewing process? Do you think it is flawed?

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:12 PM


By the way you didn't answer my question. Do you have a problem with the peer- reviewing process? Do you think it is flawed?

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gee, if I can get 10 MDs to testify that I'm a brilliant surgeon - even though I have no education or experience in that area - would you let me operate on your children?
I live in Southern California. It's Litigation Central. For enough cash I can find enough "peers" who are more than willing to deem me an "expert" at anything. The fact that Reardon found a few pro-life professionals who agree with his BS doesn't mean much. (Check out any commercial for an over-the-counter weight-loss product on TV. They always have the endorsement of a physician - and they're usually crap. I always trust the FDA more than a "made for TV" expert paid to say ANYTHING...)

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 11, 2008 1:24 PM


Yes, because of course, being gay and having an abortion both make you an evil, twisted, messed up person.

*rolls eyes*

Posted by: Erin at January 11, 2008 1:25 PM


Doug claims that whether or not a baby is "A" human being is really subjective. That whether it is just human or an actual individual is in the eye of the beholder...he believes that once it attains consciousness or is out of the womb it can be given the status of "A" human being.

Fine. That's his perception.

But Bethany is right. Why shouldn't you show the woman ultrasounds or photos or models of what the actual "fetus" looks like and let her THEN make a subjective judgment for herself. Why risk waiting until after the abortion, when she might stumble upon these photos unprepared? That, to me, would be really damaging, if she believed what she was "told" (that it was just a blob of tissue) rather than what she saw (she could then make up her own mind about what she was seeing...).

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 1:26 PM


"No, Jill has posted lots of articles about how homosexuality and abortion go hand in hand. On the surface, it may sound like an oxymoron (because obviously lesbians don't get pregnant), but it really is not far fetched, when you search a little deeper into the other reasons behind supporting abortion and homosexuality. "

I'll call BS on that one. My pro choice lesbian friend is in a long-term relationship with a pro-lifer. Trying to connect homosexuality with the evil of abortion only distracts from the cause. Maybe if they didn't feel so unwelcome more homosexuals will be more willing to join the movement. Because at the time more homosexuals are pro-choice doesn't mean there is a decided "link." Just like I don't think you have to be pro-abstinence only education and anti-birth control to be pro-life. You can believe these all you would like, but I don't think there is any real link. Like Penn and Teller would say, bull****.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 11, 2008 1:27 PM


PIP,

I talked to Jill today and she asked me what the question was that you asked her that she didn't answer and I couldn't for the life of me remember!


Would you post it again?

She really does want to answer.
I can't even remember what post it was on...

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 1:29 PM


By the way, Reardon is often quoted by the peer-review publication "Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons." It a fabulous source of information if you believe that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, global warming doesn't exist, and antidepressants are a lft-wing mind-control plot.

Here's a fine article about Reardon's favorite publishing venue:

http://www.neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/91/

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 11, 2008 1:33 PM


OH NO!! NOT A LESBIAN??!!!!

*eyeroll*

Honestly - PLEASE explain to me how that makes her ANY different from an equally pro choice straight woman??

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 1:33 PM


Gee, if I can get 10 MDs to testify that I'm a brilliant surgeon - even though I have no education or experience in that area - would you let me operate on your children?

Gee, is ethics really comparable to surgery?
Got a better analogy, Laura?

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:38 PM


Or even an actual straight answer would do....

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:39 PM



The fact that Reardon found a few pro-life professionals who agree with his BS doesn't mean much. (

Actually, there are many pro-choice professionals who agreed with his research.
A pro-choice athiest, in fact, was one of his supporters.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:42 PM


*beats head against wall* There is no such think as PAS. It's PTSD. Trauma that occurs because of a surgical procedure is PTSD.

Posted by: Erin at January 11, 2008 12:29 PM

Erin, so you don't think there's postpartum psychosis either then right? That would also fall under PTSD by your logic.

Posted by: Kristen at January 11, 2008 1:46 PM


Why can't anyone seem to understand the difference between homosexuality and a person who practices homosexuality. I just don't get that. I suppose it all goes down to their belief that homosexuality is something the person cannot choose, and we believing it is something they can choose.

I think stealing is wrong. This does not mean that I hate everyone who steals. I do think that there are reasons that stealing and lying go hand in hand. This doesn't mean that I think that all thieves are liars, nor does it mean that I think all liars are thieves.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:51 PM


Great point, Kristen!

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:53 PM


I know a LOT of gay people Bethany... not a single one of them chose to be that way, in fact, most of them went through stages of their life where they tried to pretend they were straight, or just tried to ignore sexuality alltogether.

My aunt almost got married to a man, because she didn't WANT to be gay. But she knew deep down it was unfair to him and she didn't go through with it. She has now been with her partner for 11+ years.

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 1:54 PM


some people just can't handle the truth.

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 1:57 PM


My neighbor Randy, the one I mentioned who just adopted a baby with his partner, was an athlete all through High School, dated cheerleaders, the whole bit... and raised in a very religious Irish Family. He didn't come out until he was in his late 20s, because he knew it would cost him EVERYTHING - most of his friends, some of his family, etc. His family has come around completely, but he still hesitates to tell people he's gay.

My dear friends from church, Sam and Will, were in a relationship for a year before they thought they could tell anyone. They met at work, and fell in love. Sam wasn't even sure he was gay at that point until he realized he was in love. Hiding his identity at work, with his friends, and family was so stressful and took such a toll on Will that he started to have anxiety attacks.

Tell me, do you know ANYONE who would CHOOSE to feel the need to hide who they are out of fear?

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 2:02 PM


Amanda, I agree there are tendencies..but I do not believe it is something they must do. I believe that when a person has homosexual tendencies though, there is almost always a problem at home.
You may not agree with me, and I'm not trying to criticize them because I agree that they are some really nice people. But I have met quite a few who had been abused (sexually, physically, or emotionally) at home, and homosexuality was sort of their "response" to that (for lack of a better word)...they were searching for answers to why they didn't feel "normal", and this gave them an answer. It's more complicated than that, I know, and the reasons are always different and complex for every person, but I believe there's always a reason, below the surface. It's not something that they're born with, in my opinion, from what I've seen, and from what I've researched..

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 2:03 PM


My friend Mike, the one who was murdered last year, told his parents he liked boys when he was 9 years old.... LONG before he knew enough about love and sexuality to make a decision like that. He'd been out and proud since age 12, and went to a Catholic School. He had such a personality and was such a presence that no one ever really dared to tease him for being gay, because he was so popular. He actually took more flack for dating a white guy at one point than he ever took for being gay.

My coworker Ray has known she was gay for as long as she can remember, though she didn't come out until her teens due to fear. Its taken her years to come to terms with it and be proud of herself for who she is.

I dated a very sweet boy in 9th grade who treated me like a princess and was a wonderful kisser. He came out 2 years ago. LONG after we had broken up and become friends. He said he actually went to hypnonsis in college to try to convince himself he was straight, and then considered becoming a buddhist monk and being celibate, because he figured that would be easier than being gay... but when he confided in his friends and family, after his very judgemental father passed away, he was able to recieve the support and love he needed to accept himself, and is now in a great relationship.

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 2:11 PM


How was Mike murdered? I'm sorry that you lost your friend.

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 2:14 PM


Gee, is ethics really comparable to surgery?
Got a better analogy, Laura?


Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 1:38 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) He has NO education in Bioethics. The "university" he claimed to "attend" has no actual campus or faculty.
2) Reardon makes psychological and medical declarations that he is TOTALLY unqualified to make.
My degrees are in Biology and Animal Science. Are you going to let me prepare your taxes and invest your retirement portfolio? No?

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 11, 2008 2:33 PM


laura,

do you have any children?

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 2:35 PM


Mike was on a dating website called okcupid.com - its just like Match.com only its free.

A group of boys were bored one night and had no money to buy weed. So they went on to the site to look for a gay guy, because they thought he'd be "easy to rob". They made a fake profile, and messaged Mike. They spent several hours talking to him on IM, pretending to be a single gay man. Eventually they asked him to meet at the beach. When Mike got there, there were 3 boys ducking down in the car, and one waiting in the drivers seat. As soon as he got out of his car, all 4 of them jumped out of their car and beat Mike up. They underestimated how strong he was, so when he broke free, they panicked and chased him in to oncoming traffic on the Belt Parkway, where he was struck by a car.

They dragged him, still alive, to the side of the road, took his cell phone and wallet, and kicked him a few more times before leaving him there bleeding.

He stayed on life support for about 24 hours, to give his friends and family time to come and sit with him and say goodbye and have his priest come from Long Island to give him his last rites.

The lines at his wake were so long, they needed to call in traffic police, and his funeral shut down a 3 mile section of the Long Island Expressway.

The two boys who orchestrated the whole thing were both convicted of manslaughter as a hate crime, and will serve 8-25 years. The other two boys were convicted of robbery and assault as hate crime, and recieved 90 day sentences plus probation.

Mike's parents asked the judge for leniency for them, because they felt that to see 4 more lives be wasted would be a disservice to Mike's memory. They believed Mike would have forgiven them if he had lived.

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 2:41 PM


Did anyone ever see the show "Work Out?" The one with (IMO) the very cute woman (who was a lesbian) with the short blond hair and killer body? (Speaking from a purely straight viewpoint.) Any who, there was an episode where she went somewhere to train another woman who was straight and they got along really well and went out to dinner. The straight woman asked the gay woman (sorry I don't remember the names) about being gay and asked if it was something she was born with. The gay woman said "No, I'm damaged." And basically said she thought it all stemmed from the issues she had with her mother.

I'm not saying everyone who's gay is like that but I was surprised hearing it from someone who was gay. And yes, SHE used the word "damaged."

Posted by: Kristen at January 11, 2008 2:41 PM


Jackie Warner. :) I watched that show all the time and was so sad when Doug died.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 2:45 PM


What happened? I only watched it sporadically and they were talking about him dying but I couldn't remember who he was and didn't know why he died...

Do you remember the episode I mentioned above?

Posted by: Kristen at January 11, 2008 2:47 PM


he died of kidney failure. it was very sad.

Posted by: Amanda at January 11, 2008 2:55 PM


That is very sad.

Posted by: Kristen at January 11, 2008 2:59 PM


Bethany,

you said there is a "link" but there is no reason why, nor have I garnered from your post why and how there is a link. If the only "link" is that they are both sins, then that is pretty obvious, no?

Note that I was not attacking the argument about the choice to be gay..but your statement (and Jills) that somehow being a lesbian pro-choice/pro-life person is different and in PC terms, worse (and connected?) than a straight pro-choice/pro-life person. There is no reason to assume that, unless your "link" is that most gay people are pro-choice, and I can chalk some of that up to the fact that the pro-life movement associates itself with the religious right which is strongly anti-gay.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 11, 2008 3:19 PM


Yes, I do remember that episode. Jackie is so honest and I enjoyed watching work through some things about her Dad and trying to relate to her Mom.
Doug was such a good friend to everyone. I remember his last client. A shy overweight girl and how he made her cry by telling her how he wanted to help her. What a big heart.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 3:21 PM


"with the religious right which is strongly anti-gay."

why are they anti-gay PIP? what do you mean?

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 3:32 PM


It may be, she said, that women who have abortions are more emotionally unstable in the first place.

Isn't that obvious? If they were in an ideal situation to have a baby, they would have the baby. Since they're deciding not to have the baby, it's logical to conclude that their circumstances are not ideal, and one of the ways it can be not ideal is if the mother is not emotionally stable.

"There is also evidence to suggest that... pregnancy and abortion contain the potential for maturation and personal growth."

This is true. Some women do say that their abortion helped them grow and mature.

"Women who continue to manifest negative psychiatric sequelae after 6 months almost always have preexisting psychiatric conditions."

This is also true.

Amazing, particularly coming from someone who thinks disallowing gays and lesbians from marrying inflicts "grave psychological harm." Yet there can be no grave psychological harm from aborting one's own child?

You know, nobody ever said that abortion can never cause psychological harm. Obviously it can. So can childbirth, or divorce, or growing up with parents who don't love you, or don't love each other, or having children before you're ready for them, and many other things in life.

I accept that it is possible for a woman to have depression or post-traumatic stress from an abortion. What I don't accept is the idea that abortion is inherently psychologically harmful to everyone.

There is no such thing as "post abortion stress syndrome." Most women who abort do not experience negative psychological effects.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 3:34 PM


"Most" women do not experience negative psychological effects. How many is most?

I did.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 3:38 PM


Carla, i would think most would mean a majority, meaning over 50%

Posted by: Dan at January 11, 2008 3:41 PM


Carla --

But a study out this month finds that 80% of women were not depressed after having an abortion. In fact, the rate of depression in the postabortion group was equal to the rate of depression in the general population. As for post-traumatic stress symptoms, the rate was 1% in the postabortion group compared with an estimated 11% in women of the same age in the general population.

-- http://preview.tinyurl.com/ys24wx

Obviously, this does not say "100% of post-abortion women are perfectly fine!!" Some women DO regret their abortions and suffer from them. Most don't, but that doesn't mean the ones who do are lying or anything like that. Abortion can indeed be traumatic for some women.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 3:47 PM


I can chalk some of that up to the fact that the pro-life movement associates itself with the religious right which is strongly anti-gay.

PiP nails it. Of course the pro-life movement is going to have a hard time reaching gays and lesbians if certain outspoken elements of it insist on lumping pro-life and anti-gay together under a "pro-family" umbrella.

Posted by: Jen R at January 11, 2008 3:47 PM


What percentage of soldiers come home and suffer from PTSD? Is it over 50%? Is it any less real, or any less a syndrome if 3% of 45 million women experience it?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 3:52 PM


Only 4% (some say 10%) percent of the population claims it's gay...does that mean they aren't gay? Does it need to be 50% to be valid?

Agreed that one woman does not a syndrome make, nor does 2 or 3....but 50%? That seems ridiculous. 50% of the population doesn't suffer from ANY disorder that I know of...

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 3:54 PM


"why are they anti-gay PIP? what do you mean?"

Constantly condemning homosexuality, condemning equal marriage rights under law, trying to make adoption by gay couples illegal, opposing hate crime legislation, etc. Who is going to relate to an organization who aren't even going to accept them for who they are, or treating them like everyone else? Gay people are proud of who they are, but lumping opposition to their fight for equality into the "pro-life" movement is drastically hurting the chances of getting them involved.

Right on, Jen R.

Posted by: prettyinpink at January 11, 2008 3:57 PM


syndrome/definition

A group of signs and symptoms that collectively define or characterize a disease or disorder; signs are objective findings such as weakness, and symptoms are subjective findings such as a feeling of fear or tingling in a finger.
professionals.epilepsy.com/page/glossary.html

Obviously, enough women are having these symptoms or the phrase wouldn't even exist.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 3:57 PM


mk:

What percentage of soldiers come home and suffer from PTSD? Is it over 50%? Is it any less real, or any less a syndrome if 3% of 45 million women experience it?

EXACTLY, mk!

And note that we don't call it "post-war stress syndrome" or "post-Iraq stress syndrome" or "post-infantry stress syndrome" just because it happened to be triggered by a particular experience.

It's "post-traumatic stress disorder," regardless of whether it's caused by a landmine or a plane crash or an abortion. The rare case of abortion trauma doesn't get its own special syndrome just because it was caused by abortion.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:00 PM


Reality,
The time frame is a factor in any study. If you had asked me the day after my abortion how I felt I would have said "relieved." It has been estimated that 7-9 years after an abortion some women start to feel regret. Just sayin.
17 years after mine and I wish I had never had one.
I will speak for me.:)

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 4:04 PM


Carla --

The time frame is a factor in any study. If you had asked me the day after my abortion how I felt I would have said "relieved." It has been estimated that 7-9 years after an abortion some women start to feel regret. Just sayin.
17 years after mine and I wish I had never had one.
I will speak for me.:)

I'm sorry, but who presumed to speak for you? I never denied that you feel bad about your abortion.

But the fact that you feel bad about your abortion does not mean that abortion is inherently harmful for everyone.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:07 PM


I believe it is harmful for everyone involved. Especially the baby.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 4:13 PM


mk --

syndrome: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2zntha

In medicine, a syndrome is a set of symptoms that point to a particular cause.

This is why there is no such thing as "post abortion stress syndrome:" there are dozens of symptoms for "post-abortion stress syndrome," but if a woman were to go to the doctor with some/all of these symptoms, a doctor couldn't infer that it was caused by abortion unless the woman said so. A psychiatrist couldn't know that the trauma was caused by abortion just by looking at the symptoms. There's nothing special about "post abortion syndrome" that makes it any different from post-traumatic stress disorder.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:19 PM


Carla --

I believe it is harmful for everyone involved. Especially the baby.

Good for you, but that is not how everyone feels.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:22 PM


So I gather.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 4:24 PM


Reality,

symptoms are subjective findings such as a feeling of fear or tingling in a finger.

all symptoms are subjective by definition...

If all of the women have having had abortions in common and present with the same symptoms then you label it a syndrome...

hence we have the Gulf War Syndrome, which is probably not recognized the psychiatric community as a legitimate psychiatric disease...but does that really make it any less real to the guys and gals suffering from it after serving in the gulf war?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:25 PM


No. But it's PTSD. You can't just invent new psychological terms like that and expect them to be accepted.

Posted by: Erin at January 11, 2008 4:30 PM


Reality,

Obviously, this does not say "100% of post-abortion women are perfectly fine!!" Some women DO regret their abortions and suffer from them. Most don't, but that doesn't mean the ones who do are lying or anything like that. Abortion can indeed be traumatic for some women.

That's all we're claiming...that 20% of women (using your statistic) are exhibiting symptoms of depression, etc. and that there are enough of them with the same symptoms that it can be classified as a syndrome.

Acknowledging that SOME women suffer from this syndrome does not automatically translate to ALL women will suffer from this syndrome any more than claiming that NONE suffer from it will make that true.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:37 PM


Erin,

Of course you can...Bi Polar used to be called manic/depression...

What about PMS...

or this?

http://tinyurl.com/2cjbpu

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:42 PM


Reality,

It's "post-traumatic stress disorder," regardless of whether it's caused by a landmine or a plane crash or an abortion. The rare case of abortion trauma doesn't get its own special syndrome just because it was caused by abortion.

I hear what you are saying, but I'd have to know the symptoms for both disorders...if they are identical, then I might agree with you, but if they are different, then we might have a separate disorder.

But tell me this. Would you object if instead of saying Post Abortion Syndrome, we said that 20% of women will suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, when we were counseling abortion candidates? Cuz if that would be okay with you, I'd have no problem switching how we say it. The problem is that it is made to sound like neither disorder exists due to abortions...

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:47 PM


Reality,

symptoms are subjective findings such as a feeling of fear or tingling in a finger.

all symptoms are subjective by definition...

If all of the women have having had abortions in common and present with the same symptoms then you label it a syndrome...

hence we have the Gulf War Syndrome, which is probably not recognized the psychiatric community as a legitimate psychiatric disease...but does that really make it any less real to the guys and gals suffering from it after serving in the gulf war?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:49 PM


mk --

That's all we're claiming...

No, it's not. Jill said that pro-choice people believe "there can be no psychological harm from abortion." That's not true at all. Nobody ever said that there can never be psychological harm from abortion.

that 20% of women (using your statistic) are exhibiting symptoms of depression, etc.

Yes, the same rate as the general population.

and that there are enough of them with the same symptoms that it can be classified as a syndrome.

This is not true.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:49 PM


Here:

# Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an emotional illness that was first formally diagnosed in soldiers and war veterans and is caused by terribly frightening, life-threatening, or otherwise highly unsafe experiences.
# PTSD symptom types include re-experiencing the trauma, avoidance, and hyperarousal.

This says PTSD is caused by life threatening or terribly frightening experiences. But we are not claiming that women were frightened or that their lives were threatened.

We are actually saying this is more like a disorder brought about by extreme delayed guilt.

This is a good reason to give it a different title, no?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:51 PM


Note that it says symptoms from all four categories must be present...

What are the symptoms of PTSD?

There are four main types of PTSD symptoms. A diagnosis of PTSD requires the presence of all categories of symptomatic responses:

* Re-experiencing the trauma: flashbacks, nightmares, intrusive memories and exaggerated emotional and physical reactions to triggers that remind the person of the trauma.
* Emotional numbing: feeling detached, lack of emotions (especially positive ones), loss of interest in activities
* Avoidance: avoiding activities, people, or places that remind the person of the trauma
* Increased arousal: difficulty sleeping and concentrating, irritability, hypervigilance (being on guard), and exaggerated startle response.


http://tinyurl.com/ahm8v

I don't think the fourth category happen in PAS.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:54 PM


and that there are enough of them with the same symptoms that it can be classified as a syndrome.

This is not true.

Why not?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:56 PM


If all of the women have having had abortions in common and present with the same symptoms then you label it a syndrome...

No, you don't. You label it a syndrome if the symptoms point to the cause. What makes the symptoms of post-abortion depression or PTSD any different from post-war depression/PTSD, or post-car crash depression/PTSD, or post death-of-a-child depression/PTSD, or any other depression/PTSD?

hence we have the Gulf War Syndrome, which is probably not recognized the psychiatric community as a legitimate psychiatric disease...but does that really make it any less real to the guys and gals suffering from it after serving in the gulf war?

"Gulf war syndrome" is a collection of immune system disorders and birth defects experienced by Gulf War veterans. It is not a psychiatric disorder.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 4:57 PM


These are the symptoms listed for PAS

The symptoms of post-abortion syndrome will not necessarily appear at the same time, nor is any woman likely to experience the entire list. Some may occur immediately after an abortion and others much later. If you can identify with more than two of these symptoms, it could be that you are experiencing post-abortion syndrome.

Below are the symptoms that describe post-abortion syndrome, as described by Dr. Paul and Teri Reisser in their book, Help for the Post-Abortive Woman (now entitled A Solitary Sorrow):

1. Guilt. Guilt is what an individual feels when she has violated her own moral code. For the woman who has come to believe, at some point either before or after the abortion, that she consented to the killing of her unborn child, the burden of guilt is relentless. There is little consolation to offer the woman who has transgressed one of nature's strongest instincts: the protection a mother extends to her young. In fact, many post-abortive women believe that any unhappy events that have occurred since the abortion were inevitable because they "deserve it."

2. Anxiety. Anxiety is defined as an unpleasant emotional and physical state of apprehension that may take the form of tension, (inability to relax, irritability, etc.), physical responses (dizziness, pounding heart, upset stomach, headaches, etc.), worry about the future, difficulty concentrating and disturbed sleep. The conflict between a woman's moral standards and her decision to abort generates much of this anxiety. Very often, she will not relate her anxiety to a post-abortion syndrome abortion, and yet she will unconsciously begin to avoid anything having to do with babies. She may make excuses for not attending a baby shower, skip the baby aisle at the grocery store and so forth.

3. Psychological "numbing." Many post-abortive women maintain a secret vow that they will never again allow themselves to be put in such a vulnerable position. As a result, often without conscious thought, they may work hard to keep their emotions in tight check, preventing themselves from feeling the pain of what has happened, but also greatly hampering their ability to form and maintain close relationships. Cut off even from themselves, they may feel as though their lives were happening to another person.

4. Depression and thoughts of suicide. All of us experience depression from time to time, but the following forms of it are certainly common in women who have experienced abortion:

* Sad mood--ranging from feelings of melancholy to total hopelessness.
* Sudden and uncontrollable crying episodes--the source of which appear to be a total mystery.
* Deterioration of self-concept--because she feels wholly deficient in her ability to function as a "normal" woman. Sleep, appetite, and sexual disturbances--usually in a pattern of insomnia, loss of appetite and/or reduced sex drive.
* Reduced motivation--for the normal activities of life. The things that occupied her life before the depression no longer seem worth doing.
* Disruption in interpersonal relationships--because of the general lack of enthusiasm for all activities. This is especially evidenced in her relationship with her husband or boyfriend, particularly if he was involved in the abortion decision.
* Thoughts of suicide--or preoccupation with death. Not surprisingly, in a study done by the Elliot Institute some 33% of post-abortive women surveyed reached a level of depression so deep that they would rather die than go on.


5. Anniversary syndrome. In the survey reference previously, some 54% of post-abortive women report an increase of post-abortion syndrome symptoms around the time of the anniversary of the abortion and/or the due date of the aborted child.

6. Re-experiencing the abortion. A very common event described by post-abortive women is the sudden distressing, recurring "flashbacks" of the abortion episode, often occurring during situations that resemble some aspect of the abortion, such as a routine gynecological exam, or even the sound of a vacuum cleaner's suction. "Flashbacks" also occur in the form of recurring nightmares about babies in general or the aborted baby in particular. These "dreams" usually involve themes of lost, dismembered or crying babies.

7. Preoccupation with becoming pregnant again. A significant percentage of women who abort become pregnant again within one year, and many others verbalize the desire to conceive again as quickly as possible. The new baby, sometimes referred to as the "atonement baby," may represent an unconscious desire to replace the one that was aborted.

8. Anxiety over fertility and childbearing issues. Some post-abortive women maintain a fear that they will never again become pregnant or be able to carry a pregnancy to term. Some expect to have handicapped children because they have "disqualified themselves as good mothers." Many refer to these fears as punishments from God.

9. Interruption of the bonding process with present and/or future children. Fearing another devastating loss, a post-abortive woman may not allow herself to truly bond with other children. Another common reaction is to atone for her actions toward the aborted child by becoming the world's most perfect mother to her remaining or future children. Likewise, the woman who already had children at the time of her abortion may discover that she is beginning to view them in a different light. At one extreme, she may unconsciously devalue them, thinking things like, "you were the lucky one. You were allowed to live." Or she may go in the opposite direction and become overly protective.

10. Survival guilt. Most women do not abort for trivial reasons. They are usually in the midst of a heartbreaking situation whereby they stand to lose much if they choose to carry their pregnancies to term. In the end, the decision boils down to a sorrowful "It's me or you, and I choose me." But while the abortion frees them from their current trauma, it frequently produces in them an unrelenting guilt for choosing their own comfort over the life of the child.

11. Development of eating disorders. Some post-abortive women developed anorexia or bulimia. While this phenomenon remains largely unexplored at this time, several factors may contribute to it. First, a substantial weight gain or severe weight loss is associated with unattractiveness, which reduces the odds of becoming pregnant again. Second, becoming unattractive serves as a form of self-punishment and helps perpetuate the belief that the woman is unworthy of anyone's attention. Third, extremes in eating behavior represent a form of control for the woman who feels her life is totally out of control. And finally, a drastic weight loss can shut down the menstrual cycle, thus preventing any future pregnancies.

12. Alcohol and drug abuse. Alcohol and drug use often serve initially as a form of self-medication--a way of coping with the pain of the abortion memories. Sadly, the woman who resorts to alcohol and/or drugs eventually finds herself having not only more problems but also fewer resources with which to solve them. The mental and physical consequences of alcohol or drug abuse only amplify most of the symptoms the woman is already experiencing.

13. Other self-punishing or self-degrading behaviors. In addition to eating disorders and substance abuse, the post-abortive woman may also enter in abusive relationships, become promiscuous, and fail to take care of herself medically or deliberately hurt herself emotionally and/or physically.

14. Brief reactive psychosis. Rarely, a post-abortive woman may experience a brief psychotic episode for two weeks or less after her abortion. The break with reality and subsequent recovery are both extremely rapid, and in most cases the person returns completely to normal when it is over. While this is an unusual reaction to abortion, it bears mentioning only because it is possible for a person to have a brief psychotic reaction to a stressful even without being labeled a psychotic individual. During such and episode, the individual's perception of reality is drastically distorted. These individuals should be referred to the care of a professional.

http://tinyurl.com/28mbyn

Different symptoms, different causes, why not different syndromes.

As to the 20% being the same as the general population...what percentage of War Veterans suffer from PTSD? The same as the general population?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 5:00 PM


I realize that Gulf War syndrome is physical, but the syndrome itself was denied by the medical community and the government. It was claimed that it was "all in their head".

The analogy comes from someone saying it didn't exist when clearly there was a group of individuals presenting with the same symptoms...so they were denying something that was obviously true and thereby demeaning the people who claimed to have it.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 5:03 PM


mk --

I don't think 9Increased arousal: difficulty sleeping and concentrating, irritability, hypervigilance (being on guard), and exaggerated startle response] happen in PAS.

11. Are you bothered by certain sounds, like vaccuum cleaners, or other machinery that makes loud noises?

28. Do you have sleeping problems? (difficulty falling asleep, difficulty staying asleep, or wanting to sleep too much?)

34. If you have children now, do you smother them with your love or overprotect them? Do you worry about them being hurt?

-- http://afterabortion.com/quiz.html

Sounds pretty similar to me.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 5:05 PM


Yeah,

You could be right...I'm really not fighting you here. I'm coming at this from a psychiatric standpoint and not a pro life one...

So the question stands...would you be opposed to us informing women that they could develop PTSD due to their abortions?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 5:10 PM


Is it really just the "title" you have an issue with, or our claim that 20% of women seem to show signs of "A" disorder after having abortions?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 5:11 PM


Guilt, anxiety, numbness, depression, crying, flashbacks, wanting to have a baby, etc. etc. etc....

You posted a grab-bag of symptoms that could point to any traumatic experience, not just abortion. When my younger cousin died, I experienced almost all of those symptoms. Did I have PASS? Well no, because I've never had an abortion.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 5:16 PM


So the question stands...would you be opposed to us informing women that they could develop PTSD due to their abortions?

I'm not opposed to telling women the truth: that abortion can be traumatic, especially to women who:

* already have psychological problems
* feel coerced to abort
* aren't sure of their decision

I have no problem at all with telling women that. Many (if not all) women are told that, thanks to informed consent requirements.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 5:19 PM


mk --

Is it really just the "title" you have an issue with, or our claim that 20% of women seem to show signs of "A" disorder after having abortions?

20% = the same number of people who show signs of "A" disorder after eating an ice cream sundae.

Posted by: reality at January 11, 2008 5:29 PM


Reality,


20% = the same number of people who show signs of "A" disorder after eating an ice cream sundae.


I believe that's called lactose intolerance...lol.

I'm glad to hear you say that tho. Honestly, I have no problem calling it PTSD brought on by an abortion any more than I have a problem using the name pro-choice as opposed to pro-abortion.

I'm not here to make enemies. I really do believe in "truth"...I know sometimes the prolife (as well as the prochoice) side engages in rhetoric to prove their points...I don't like to do that because I think the truth stands on it's own.

And now my husband is taking me out for steak so I must bid adieu. Today has been a pleasure on Jill's. This is the first time you and I have had a chance to really talk. It's was really nice. Thanks.

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 5:35 PM


I can add a small contribution here about gays and the pro-life side: I know many gay men and women who are definitely anti-abortion but have been less than "welcomed" in pro-life groups they have tried to join, based solely on their orientation. This is just wrong, IMO. These people are upright citizens, are not part of the stereotypical gay movement or agenda and are not radical extremists or "in your face" about their lives. Many would make great parents, but have chosen not to attempt adoption because of all the hoopla it creates, which is sad.

As far as showing women pictures of fetuses and trying to show them what is going on inside their bodies, I DO think it's fine...BUT...I have an enormous problem believing claims from ADULT women who claim they had NO IDEA how far developed their babies were when they aborted. We aren't living in the 18th Century in this country. Anyone can open a book and see for themselves all about fetal development and pregnancy. Young girls, yes...I can understand their ignorance...but adult WOMEN? NO. I just don't buy it. It's a flimsy excuse for being irresponsible and selfish. You can't live in present day America and be so IGNORANT about pregnancy.

People CHOOSE to see and hear what they WANT to see and hear at the moment. For adult MEN and WOMEN to feign ignorance about their aborted children (and to then expect sympathy) is an insult to the intelligence of the people they are talking to.

Posted by: Mike at January 11, 2008 5:39 PM


Per Laura:
"Only a whack-job would claim that they had no idea what an abortion accomplishes, and that an abortion wasn't EXACTLY what they wanted when they shelled out good money for the privledge."

Laura,
First of all women are lied to all the time by the abortion idustry and society to make them think abortion is an easy fix and comes with no consequences. Abortion clinic workers have come out many times admitting to the lies they tell women to get them to abort.

Pregnant women who have babies diagnosed with terminal anomolies are told to abort! abort! abort! by the medical professionals. Many times these women come back with a life-time of regret because even though their babies were going to eventually die, they were the ones that actually killed their babies.

A process that started out as "good advice" from their doctors didn't turn out that way. They feel horrible that they were unable to carry a healthy baby to term and then they are put in a position where they are told it would be best if you just kill it and get it over with.

Also:
What do you say to those women who experience post partum depression? These women had no idea that when they got pregnant and were excited to have their baby that it would turn into PPD.

Are you so cold hearted you would tell this "wack job" that she should have known what pregnancy and giving birth to a child is all about? I mean afterall, she paid good money for the privilege to have a child.

Posted by: Sandy at January 11, 2008 5:53 PM


Are you so cold hearted you would tell this "wack job" that she should have known what pregnancy and giving birth to a child is all about? I mean afterall, she paid good money for the privilege to have a child.

Great point, Sandy!

Posted by: Bethany at January 11, 2008 6:08 PM


Dear Mike,
Wouldn't it be awesome if abortion clinics had all of those fetal models and books on pregnancy and ultrasounds so women could see for themselves how far along their babies are? They could be completely informed. They could make an informed decision.
Sadly, this is just not the case.

Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 6:23 PM


delete any comments that attack the poster instead of the post...

Good, MK. A part of me is resistant to that, just "because," but all in all I think that's for the best.

I think you better keep an eye on Bethany - she might try and throw me in the trash again.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at January 11, 2008 6:41 PM


MK, just because you don't experience every single symptom of what can be used to diagnose PTSD doesn't mean you don't have it. You don't generally experience every single symptom of a disease.

PPD and PPP are valid psychological issues recognized by the Psychiatric Association. They have different causes, often having to do with hormonal issues that occur directly after delivery.

Here, MK, I must have PAS. Because I have experienced a brief psychotic state after a trauma, have tremendous issues with both normal guilt and survivors guilt, have experienced significant emotional numbing, anniversary syndrome, severe depressive issues and instances of self mutilation. Most of these I have overcome through years of therapy. Except...oh wait. These were triggered by a severe trauma that had nothing to do with abortion.

There's no point at all to assigning a different name to an identical psychiatric disorder.

Posted by: Erin at January 11, 2008 8:00 PM


MK: I'm glad to hear you say that tho. Honestly, I have no problem calling it PTSD brought on by an abortion any more than I have a problem using the name pro-choice as opposed to pro-abortion.

I'm not here to make enemies. I really do believe in "truth"...I know sometimes the prolife (as well as the prochoice) side engages in rhetoric to prove their points...I don't like to do that because I think the truth stands on it's own.

And now my husband is taking me out for steak so I must bid adieu. Today has been a pleasure on Jill's. This is the first time you and I have had a chance to really talk. It's was really nice. Thanks.

MK, your husband is a lucky guy.

I had steak the last three nights. There was a steakhouse built right into the hotel I was at. "Pretty sick" might come to some people's minds, but I work with a great guy and we have the best time and we both like going in, having a few beers, and chowing down. Two nights ago there were two bartenders, competing to see who could make the best Bloody Mary - they were changing things up, adding freshly-ground horseradish, all kinds of stuff, and Lord, did they make them strong.

Tonight I've left FL and am back in GA. My wife is bringing home chicken wings.

Posted by: Doug at January 11, 2008 8:19 PM


Anonymous and Rae, promoting psychological problems within pregnancy and negating psychological problems with abortion is clearly biased. It's not even logical.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 11, 2008 12:28 PM
.....................
Recognizing psychological problems does not constitute promotion of those problems. Negating the unrecognizable/non existent is completely logical.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2008 9:14 PM


Here:

# Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an emotional illness that was first formally diagnosed in soldiers and war veterans and is caused by terribly frightening, life-threatening, or otherwise highly unsafe experiences.
# PTSD symptom types include re-experiencing the trauma, avoidance, and hyperarousal.

This says PTSD is caused by life threatening or terribly frightening experiences. But we are not claiming that women were frightened or that their lives were threatened.

We are actually saying this is more like a disorder brought about by extreme delayed guilt.

This is a good reason to give it a different title, no?

Posted by: mk at January 11, 2008 4:51 PM
.........................................

Extreme delayed guilt? Okey dokey.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2008 9:19 PM


"Wouldn't it be awesome if abortion clinics had all of those fetal models and books on pregnancy and ultrasounds so women could see for themselves how far along their babies are? They could be completely informed. They could make an informed decision.
Sadly, this is just not the case."

thats why they should be referred to as pro-aborts.

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 9:23 PM


"Wouldn't it be awesome if abortion clinics had all of those fetal models and books on pregnancy and ultrasounds so women could see for themselves how far along their babies are? They could be completely informed. They could make an informed decision.
Sadly, this is just not the case."

thats why they should be referred to as pro-aborts.

Posted by: jasper at January 11, 2008 9:23 PM
..............................

What would you consider to be 'completely informed'? Being subjected to your brand of philosophical indoctrination?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2008 10:43 PM


Reality,
The time frame is a factor in any study. If you had asked me the day after my abortion how I felt I would have said "relieved." It has been estimated that 7-9 years after an abortion some women start to feel regret. Just sayin.
17 years after mine and I wish I had never had one.
I will speak for me.:)
Posted by: Carla at January 11, 2008 4:04 PM
.............................................

What made you suddenly unhappy over a choice made years ago and how to you equate that to a life debilitating syndrome?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2008 10:46 PM


Carla,
Jesus see's how much you mourn your abortion from seventeen years ago and your tears have been the source of forgiveness.

I will bless the Lord at all times,
his praise always on my lips;
in the Lord my soul shall make it's boas.
The humble shall hear and be glad.

Glorify the Lord with me.
Together let us praise his name.
I sought the Lord and he answered me;
from all my terrors he set me free.

Look toward him and be radiant;
let your faces not be abashed.
This poor man called and the Lord heard him
and rescued him from all his distress.

The angel of the Lord is encamped
around those who revere him, to rescue them.
Taste and see that the Lord is good.
he is happy who seeks refuge in him.

Revere the Lord, you his saints.
They lck nothing, those who revere him.
Strong lions suffer want and go hungry
but those who seek the Lord lack no blessing.

Posted by: Truthseeker at January 12, 2008 12:11 AM


Doug,

delete any comments that attack the poster instead of the post...
Good, MK. A part of me is resistant to that, just "because," but all in all I think that's for the best.
I think you better keep an eye on Bethany - she might try and throw me in the trash again.

We were resistant too, "because", but to preserve the dignity and tone of this site, we felt, that for now, we would have to come down on really inciteful posts. We want people to express themselves, but sometimes allowing everyone to say everything results in an atmosphere where nothing is actually getting said.

And don't worry. I realize that Bethany is the worst culprit...Ala Bob DeNiro...I'll be watching her!

Posted by: mk at January 12, 2008 4:23 AM


Anon,

Extreme delayed guilt? Okey dokey.

Again, we're not arguing that ALL women will feel this. We're just trying to agree on a "phrase"...PTSD or PBA. There are women who feel extreme guilt after an abortion, and these are the women we are talking about. There might be prolifers who will argue that ALL women feel guilt. I'm not one of them. I'm just talking about recognizing women that DO feel this guilt and subsequently exhibit certain symptoms. See?

Posted by: mk at January 12, 2008 4:28 AM


HisMan,

We are aware that you are not the "Real" HisMan and from this point forward any and all posts that you put up will be deleted. You are welcome to post here, but you will have to do it without stealing someone elses identity. That's not fair to HisMans good name.

Posted by: mk at January 12, 2008 4:34 AM


Truthseeker,
The tears are running down my face. Only Jesus knows. He heals. I run to Him and seek His face and He has touched me with His healing hand. He is the Only reason I can speak of my abortion to others, live with the regret and grieve with hope!

Dear Anonymous,
There is no "suddenly" for me. "Unhappy" does not begin to describe what I have been through. What life debilitating syndrome am I equating? I am not all that interested in "what to call it" so I won't be arguing that point.
You are welcome to see my blog and read about my abortion experience. It's in the right side bar.

Posted by: Carla at January 12, 2008 7:32 AM


@Reality,

It seems strange about psychiatric illnesses that result from abortion, but do not consider that abortion may result from an induced depression. Decades ago an Ob/Gyn from New Zealand (Patric Dunn) recorded the differing moods during pregnancy. He found two periods of depression DURING pregnancy, and ANOTHER shortly following childbirth.

The first usually began around 5 weeks, ending at 11 weeks. It seems though that these two are not as significant as the 8-10 wk.-time-frame where it is spike-like. The 'other' pregnancy-related period of depression starts at the beginning of the 3rd trimester and continues unabated throughout this period. There is a glitch of euphoria at birth (perhaps due to endorphin release, but the third depression (by far the worst) begins almost exactly at the spot that would have happened with no endorphins. This is the famous post-partem depression and can become extreme.

What I find intriguing is that Dr. Dunn found that 80% of ALL abortions occurred at the bottom of the 1st depression. When this figure is matched with the '83% of all abortions are done in the first trimester' (SoMG's own stats), the similarity seems enough to ask whether the 'choice' to abort is a-desire-to-end-a-depression?

This also seems circumspect because these periods precisely reflect the high use of the mineral zinc by a fetus. There is fourth period of high zinc usage: puberty. So any pregnant teen is a shoe-in for pregnancy-related depression.

So the idea about depression occurring AFTER an abortion, must come after the question about whether depression is the main CAUSE of abortion.

Posted by: John McDonell at January 12, 2008 6:03 PM


I often wonder if people would take PAS more seriously if we called it what it REALLY is--Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
We agree that people who go through a stressful event (being abused as a child, being raped, an accident, etc.) can have flashbacks, nightmares, grief, irrational fears, triggers, etc. but not a woman who has an elective abortion? Come on.

Posted by: Kel at January 13, 2008 11:09 PM


Or looking at it from another perpspective, we agree that women can experience post-partum depression or pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder (which both are caused by the normal hormone surges and drops of menstrual cycles and pregnancy), but not a woman who experiences an abortion, a medical pregnancy interruption.

Posted by: Rachael at January 15, 2008 1:09 PM


I don't agree with bashing her because she's a lesbian, however I do agree that a person who's politically active in an abortion rights organization may present bias in the organization's research and stance on the emotional outcomes of abortion.

Posted by: Rachael at January 15, 2008 1:12 PM