Let Lauren live

lauren%20high%20school.jpgHere we go again, Terri II.

This information comes from Bess McAneny of the Delaware Pro-Life Coalition, who I spoke with this morning.

I'm told Hannity & Colmes will tonight feature the story of Lauren Richardson of Delaware, a now 23-year-old who overdosed on heroin in August 2006 while 3-4 months pregnant.

Lauren was kept on life support until she delivered a healthy baby girl in February 2007, and then the fight began to euthanize Lauren.

Lauren's mother, Edith Towers, is fighting to dehydrate and starve her to death, while her father, Randy Richardson, is fighting to keep Lauren alive and assume responsibility for her care.

So far Edith is winning. Last week a court awarded her guardianship of Lauren, but any actions to kill Lauren are being staved pending appeals....

UPDATE, 2/2, 4:50a: Lauren's family has put her video up on YouTube. I've switched links to the video on page 2. And Hannity & Colmes did feature Lauren's story last night. No video available yet.

After delivery, Lauren's trach was removed, and she began breathing on her own, although she is now considered in a "persistent vegetative state." This comes despite a neurologist's report:

Nonetheless, her definite vocalization increase after I speak to her and the character of the movement of her arms suggests the possibility of her awareness of her surroundings, and thus, some cognitive capability.

There is also the following video, released by Randy, showing Lauren responding to family and a dog, sometimes verbally. Click on the graphic below to go to the video, although it could be removed at any time. I'm told Towers' attorney is supposedly furious Lauren's "right to privacy" has been breached even as he fights to kill her. I told McAneny to get the video on YouTube asap [2/2 update: done]:

Towers says Lauren watched the Terri Schindler Schiavo case unfold and expressed a wish not to live in that state, a wish made when 18 and before she was a mother.

Towers has never let Lauren see her baby and, in fact, pressured her to abort, according to McAneny, which she refused - clearly demonstrating she was pro-life.

No person should ever be starved and dehydrated to death, all the more if a loving family member wants to take responsibility for care. Only yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court stayed the execution of James Callahan, a convicted rapist and murderer in Alabama, due to concerns lethal injection may be cruel and unusual punishment. How can people have such schizophrenic opinions on life and death?

See yesterday's DelawareOnline story here.

See the webpage supporters have launched for Lauren here.


Comments:

Shouldn't congress and the house drop everything and have an emergency meeting on this? Surely we can get Frist back in the mix. Santorum, he would be glad to camp out in front of their house. I'm sure Sean Hannity would love to put the Fox screws to them.

Posted by: PeachPit at February 1, 2008 9:25 AM


Only yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court stayed the execution of James Callahan, a convicted rapist and murderer in Alabama, due to concerns lethal injection may be cruel and unusual punishment.

Oh for Pete's sake....

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 9:38 AM


Jill, a friend of mine pointed this out....the length of pregnancy doesn't add up. How could she be 3-4 months pregnant in March 2006, but deliver a healthy baby girl in February 2007? That's over a year's pregnancy, assuming they delivered the baby after at about 9 months.

Posted by: Ellie at February 1, 2008 10:06 AM


Jill:

What reasons are given for the mom wanting to abort her out of the womb daughter?

It seems very suspicious to me that an 18 year old express something regarding a death wish. The evidence given is heresay given by a prejudiced witness, the mom who wants her killed.

The spark of life should never be snuffed out by another human.

And the mom's attorney, sounds like a pro-abort twister of truth.

I believe God allows these types of things to happen, as terrible as they are, to test the church.

Where are you church? Where's the roar of a lion against this obvious abomination? Hey all you lukewarm Christians, where's your concern about this girl's eternal soul?

Can't you see that this stuff, along with the abortion battle, is just another front in the war for life. God is watching to see what we will do and we are all accountable to Him.

I for one state and stand for this women's life. I publicly decalre that starving her or dehydrating her is an act of the most heinoue kind of murder.

Where are you NOW, and NARAL and Amanda Marcotte? Here's a born woman who is trying to stay alive. You say we pro-lifers are not concerned about women that are already alive. I mean, can't we even come together on this one?

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 10:10 AM


Ellie, whoops, got a month wrong. She ODd in August 2006 and delivered in February 2007. Thanks for noticing that. Will correct.

HisMan, amen to your last paragraph in particular.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 1, 2008 10:11 AM


Don't forget our war in Iraq. Lots of life ending there for no reason.

Posted by: PeachPit at February 1, 2008 10:24 AM


She overdosed on heroin while pregnant? And you call that "pro-life?" LOL

Posted by: reality at February 1, 2008 10:32 AM


clearly demonstrating she was pro-life.


Yes, she was CLEARLY pro-life, demonstrated by the fact that she used enough heroin to OD while 3-4 months pregnant.

It seems more to me that she was irresponsibly pro-death.

Posted by: sam at February 1, 2008 10:33 AM


sam --

It seems more to me that she was irresponsibly pro-death.

Seriously!

Posted by: reality at February 1, 2008 10:34 AM


If somebody else IS willing to take total care of her..WHY won't they let him?

I'm so glad I have the parents that I do. They would never do that to me. That's real love.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:39 AM


HisMan- I'm 20, and have VERY clearly expressed to my parents that if I am in a condition like this, they are to let me die. That case gave many people, young ones included, the motivation to express their wishes and create a living will.

Also, just because someone decides not to abort, doesn't mean that they are pro-life. That's where the choice comes in.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 10:39 AM


PeachPit:

"Don't forget our war in Iraq. Lots of life ending there for no reason."

This comment is beyond understanding.

Would you rather that tens of millions be killed in a Middle East gone mad and under control of one Mr. Obama bin Laden?

Where's your concern for an alive woman who, under the Taliban, wouldn't be allowed to vote, or learn, or who could be executed by her husband if he just brought an accusation of infidelity against her? And by the way, do you think the Taliban is pro-choice? Your opinions and thinking are, at best, ambiguous.

In fact, I believe if it were Al Gore, or Hillary, or Obama, or Billy instead of GWB taking the same actions as he is in Iraq, you'd be spouting that they were Champions of Justice.

Pro-aborts see things their way. Through a prejudiced lens that is not filtered by any sort of truth or principle, just politics.

Pro-lifers, consistently stand for life. Give me a Democrat who is pro-life and I will vote for him or her.

I guess you were against Truman bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki when in the long run, millions of lives were saved by quickly terminating the war with overwhelming force?

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 10:39 AM


Elizabeth, how's your little girl doing?

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 10:40 AM


She's good..she got a new coloring book and crayons yesterday and is currently having a blast with those.

My 3rd and last day of class for this week has been cancelled..so I officially never went to my first week of classes because they closed the school ALL 3 of my days. I LOVE the midwest. and snow. really I do.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:42 AM


Also, Elizabeth, I'd assume it wouldn't be your DESIRE to be allowed to die in such a situation. I consider real love to be honoring someone's wishes. Unfortunately, some people can have a hard time doing that on both sides. This is why I PASSIONATELY encourage EVERYONE to make out a living will. Then this kind of thing won't happen.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 10:43 AM


Ok, Erin..but there isn't one or this would all be cleared up. What then?

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:43 AM


Would you rather that tens of millions be killed in a Middle East gone mad

HisMan, Bush felt he needed another issue after the popularity "high" of the post 9/11 and Afghanistan deals was wearing off. So, Iraq looked good.

I don't see Iraq as being "solved," by Bush's actions though. IMO the Shiites and Sunnis are gonna have to settle it, in the end. They've been more or less at each other for hundreds of years. To a large extent I see the cost in lives and money as a waste, there.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 10:48 AM


Elizabeth- that's just it. I don't know.

In the Schiavo case, I agreed that the husband had the authority at that point. I felt bad for her parents, but at legally, he had the power, and that's just how it is. In this one...where the parents are fighting...I don't know.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 10:48 AM


Erin,

I just think if there are people who are willing to take care of the person..then WHY won't someone let them? That I have to say baffles me.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:49 AM


I am going to go take a shower now (and make sure little missy hasn't climbed out of the playpen and wreaking havoc lol) so I will respond to your comments later if you have them for me Erin.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:50 AM


Erin:

Have you put your wishes in writing? You know, if it isn't in writing it doesn't exist. It's one thing to say. "if I am ever like that, kill me". It's another thing to actually be in that state, i.e., realizing in your mind that you are alive and don't wish to die, and say. "Please kill me".

I mean, we might say one thing when we are healthy and feeling good, but, you know, when we are staring death in the face, i.e., looking down that narrow tunnel into a deep dark abyss of, at best, nothingness, or at worst, hell itself, I would bet you the vast majority of people, would shout, "Let me live."

I would stake my life that this girl, who seems to not be able to express her wishes as they exist now, has absolutely no reason or wish to die. To me if there was just one iota of evidence that she felt this way, at this present moment, killing her would not be justified. Would you?

Heck, we don't send people to prison, if there is a reasonable doubt, why would we condemn them to death if there is a reasonable doubt about their present wish?

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 10:54 AM


Elizabeth- I think the issue isn't really about Lauren at this point, for me, at least. It's about the psychological states of the parents. Both sides of this argument have significant psychological effects on people. I'm usually in favor of removing types of life support devices because in cases of persistent vegetative states, for the most part, all that is going on is a postponement of the natural mourning process. It can be very unhealthy to cling to something like that. It can prevent a person from coming to terms with a tragedy and leave them unable to go on with their lives. That's generally why people choose to keep PVS patients alive- for their own personal reasons. It's for them, not for the patient. In the same way, a lot of times, people who want to remove life support know that they need to allow themselves to grieve, and so psychologically, it's much healthier for them. It's a very personal decision. And of course, the patients wishes should ALWAYS come in to play, if possible.

And man, I wish you guys would stop this silly "WAIT! MEBBE IT'S NOT A PVS! THIS GUY SEZ SO!!11!!" You have a decent case without demonizing anyone. You don't have to make it tabloid material.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 11:02 AM


Doug,

Right....the Iraqis were definitely better off with Saddam Hussein....give me a break.

By their own admission, various Iraqi Generals admitted that Saddam Insane had WMDs that were shipped to Syria. You hear nothing about this in the media.

By the way, now that things are getting better in Iraq, why has the propaganda wing of the Democratic Party...MSNBC, CNN, etc., etc. now shifted the interest to the economy? Why does Bill Clinton want a recession? Have you heard the idiot speak about this?

You people are beyond comprehension.

However, we're drifting off topic which is this poor girl.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 11:03 AM


Elizabeth,

It baffles me too. If she isn't in a persistent vegetative state, then killing her would be unconscionable. If she is, then as Doug would say, she doesn't know it, so she isn't suffering.

Which leaves, as Doug would also say, the desires of her parents to consider. One wants her dead. One wants her alive.

Always err on the side of life. The mother will benefit greatly from being able to take care of her daughter. The father can go on his way...good riddance.

But why, why, why in heavens name, would you want to kill that beautiful girl?

Doesn't say if she's on a feeding tube, (which wouldn't matter to me, but would matter to Doug), and if she is not, then what exactly is the reason we are killing her? Convenience? Avoiding the unpleasant?

I watched Born Yesterday last night (LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Judy Holliday)and William Holden says to her..."All the problems in the world come down to selfishness and unselfishness. I've spent my life battling selfishness..."

Something to think about...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6tthndJPPE

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 11:05 AM


"I believe God allows these types of things to happen, as terrible as they are, to test the church."

What kind of God would do something like that? And what kind of person would worship such a God?

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 11:05 AM


According to court records, Towers recalled her daughter saying, "Don't ever leave me hooked up to life support. I would not want that. I think it is horrible. I think that I do not ever want to be kept on life support if the doctors say there's no hope."

Towers testified that she then promised her daughter she would not and made her do the same if she ever ended up in that situation.

An uncle also testified, according to the ruling, that in a separate conversation Lauren told him such an existence would be "gross" and she wouldn't want to live like that with others caring for her.

Sounds like she knew exactly what she wanted. I hope the judge honors Lauren's wishes.

You know, it's funny. If this girl had got an abortion, you'd be calling her a murderer. But since she tried to kill herself while pregnant, and happened to fail, that makes her "pro-life?" Ridiculous!

Posted by: reality at February 1, 2008 11:06 AM


I have, HisMan. I have a living will for that exact reason.

This girl has no viable cognitive ability. The actual Lauren left the building long ago. Of course it's sad! She was young! But really...even if I could see myself in that state...I'd still want to be able to die. I would never live the rest of my life like that. I've had an active, exciting, wonderful life. I refuse to end it after 30 years of protein slop funneled into my stomach, drooling and wetting myself. Not for me.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 11:07 AM


Lol, ouch, MK. You just assume it's the dad? Check back, it's the reverse way. The mom wants to take her off the feeding tube and the dad is fighting for it to stay.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 11:10 AM


Erin,

Well then good riddance to her! And her dad with benefit from taking care of his little girl...

I got confused because it said the "Edith" the mother got temp. custody. I thought she was the one that wanted her alive. The argument still works, just switch the players around...sorry.

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 11:24 AM


Jill:

So it's clear to me, this women is breathing on her own, correct? It seems to me that if she is breathing on her own, it is the Lord who wants her alive as it is He who gives us breath and life and in Him we move and live and have our being. It is clear that if she is breathing on her own that God's desire and the intent of His will, as is the conception of life in the womb, wants her to be alive.

Erin:

You assume so much to make the statement that this is not about Lauren. How can a pro-abort who touts bodily autonomy and choice say such inconsistent things? Where's Lauren's choice about her own body at this point? How do you know that this is how she thinks and feels about her present condition? Let's see, let's twist this into another issue so we can win the argument. A woman's etermal soul is at stake here. How do you know that God is not keeping her alive so she can hear the Gospel at just the right time so that He is glorified by her decision to accept it. Do you want to risk the consequences of not allowing that to happen in the Lord's timetable?

Is dishonesty and lack of integrity go hand in hand with being pro-choice? Or, is it simply symptomatic or rather, a pathology?

You know, it is becomng clear to me why the pro-death side thinks like this. It's because your thinking is ruled and mastered by the ruler of the air, satan himself, who is a liar, and a thief, and a destroyer of life and by the way, a huge loser. All you pro-aborts are so sadly deceived, you have lost the ability to decipher truth. I truly feel pity for all of you.

You would do well do draw a flow chart and dove tail all the life-death decision boxes based on your way of thinking. Perhaps if you could see the insanity and inconsistency of your arguments on paper as they would be applied in varying situations you would change in a heartbeat. Perhaps, just perhaps, a light would turn on.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 11:30 AM


"Don't forget our war in Iraq. Lots of life ending there for no reason."
Posted by: PeachPit at February 1, 2008 10:24 AM


PeachPit, disagreeing with our position in the war is one thing. Showing a total lack of respect for the men and women over there risking their lives to ensure that you are not slaughtered at the hands of a militant extremist -- and for those of us who wait for them to return -- is quite another. If you have nothing decent to say about what they are doing, I hear France is suffering a population decline.

Posted by: SamanthaT at February 1, 2008 11:31 AM


Hal:

My God let His only begotten Son die on the cross and teh turned His back on Him so that you and I wouldn't have to live in hell for all eternity.

I say that this is a God beyond our abilty to fully understand but whose perspoective is eternity, not just the here and now. This is a God who created this vast universe, this beuatiful world, of which we have screwed up, not Him. The real question should be, "why does He even care"?

Who worships a God like this? Me. Someone who is honest about his limitations, about his sinfulness, about his frailty, and honest that without Him, is hopelessly lost.

"Though he slay me I will trust Him".

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 11:37 AM


"How can people have such schizophrenic opinions on life and death?"

Yeah, seriously!

"The spark of life should never be snuffed out by another human."
Really? Thought you were pro-death penalty. I stand corrected.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 11:38 AM


Guys:

I love bantering with you but I have to work now.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 11:40 AM


HisMan, 11:30 a.m.

Good post..and no matter what she has supposedly said to relatives...that is all heresay and does NOT hold up in a court of law.

Did anybody ever see that 60 minutes special about how some people came out of their vegetative states when they were given Ambien? I wrote about it for a biology class and will try to find the article online. I thought it was very interesting.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 11:40 AM


Elizabeth- I saw that too! The people given ambien in those states were in Minimally Conscious States, not Persistent Vegetative States. There's a massive difference in the levels of cognitive ability between the two.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 11:47 AM


PIP:

I am pro-death penalty. Yes I did say that, "The spark of life should never be snuffed out by another human." The two statements are absolutely consistent.

In the execution of a convicted criminal, who by his own actions have taken the life of another human being, the State, and I repeat, the State, (not another human being) acting under the authority of God Himself, takes the life of the felon (bears the sword).

My position is absolutely consistent and in line with the teachings of God's word.

Sorry PIP, no gotcha there. You see, PIP, I have studied God's word for 30 years. I have wrestled with God over His teachings and been tormented by some of the conclusions I have come to. It is not easy being a Christian, however, it is the best way a person can live.

"Though he slay me I will trust Him"

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 11:50 AM


HisMan- Lauren CAN'T think. Nothin' up there anymore. Lauren has left the building. Breathing doesn't mean life- brain means life. If the right circuits aren't firing, she's got no capacity to think.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 11:59 AM


"The two statements are absolutely consistent."

You can religiously argue one way or the other, but the two statements are not consistent. Sad, I thought you meant what you said.

Saying, "no person has any right to kill another." Is great.

You can't say "unless they are convicted of an offense" and claim you are consistent. That's not an appropriate qualifier.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 12:00 PM


Hal & Erin --

Does the fact that you have already ended the life of someone(s) you found inconvenient, make it easier for you to side with the mother in this situation?

Posted by: Anon anon at February 1, 2008 12:02 PM


I did not broach religious views. Simply consistencies. As Jill said, how can you be schizophrenic on views like that?

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 12:02 PM


"tormented by some of the conclusions I have come to."
You are tormented by the fact that you condone systematic murder?

I can understand. If I had to believe that to be a Christian, I'd be tormented too.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 12:03 PM


Anon- I made my living will long before my abortion.

I'm not trying to side with anyone here, really. I think legally it's a big jumble. But in terms of psychological well being of both of the parents, allowing their child to die and allow them to grieve properly would probably be in their best interest. I can't imagine how difficult it is to lose a child, and how hard it must be to accept that she is no longer a functioning human being, but it seems like the father is trying more to hang on to something he wants than to do what is best for his daughter and himself.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:08 PM


Since I was about 17 I've told people if I was even assumed to be in a persistent vegitative state I wish to be removed from any life support including a feeding tube. If I die it is God's will, if not it's God's will.
I still feel the same way, in fact I have a living will where I state that. My roommate and RA witnessed me writing it.

That being said, maybe they should let her see her child it might help. And if her father wants to care for her and there are no documents saying she wished to be removed from life support then they should let her father care for her.

But yeah why the heroin? I'm super surprised the baby came out ok cause that must have been a lot of heroin. Who's caring for the baby?

Posted by: Jess at February 1, 2008 12:12 PM



You're walking down a road. Describe your road to me...
MK, this is gonna have to be the abridged version. Jill might not have enough bandwidth....
Two-lane blacktop, winding through a four-mile valley, alongside a big creek or small river, take your pick. I used to run this road; my dad's lane intersects it; to the small town at the end of it and back I'd go, dreaming of track-team glory.
The road goes past the house where the boy had the dog. The dog on the chain, that the boy loved some of the time. Past the tattered plastic bag caught in tree branches. Past the place where a piece of radiator hose was lying on the pavement. Didn't see that hose until the last second.
Times like that can make you set personal records for highjump and longjump at the same time, your primal brain screaming, "Snake!"
Past the hardworking fields, producing hay and grain, with hardworking people tending them. My brothers and I used to ride our bikes here. A county line is crossed along the way, and the pavement becomes a little different.
The red hawk soars along this road, sometimes taking off from the big old tree at our neighbor's house. They had four sons. One became a bum, on a military man, one a preacher, and one dated my sister - don't know where he ended up.
It's fairly flat, overall, though there are a couple little hills that you'll notice if you're going under your own power. You run past mailboxes with ancient names on them, and the town at the end has an ancient name, "Malvern."
Posted by: Doug at January 14, 2008 12:49 PM

You're walking down a road. Describe your road to me...
It's a gravel road with potholes that my whole car fits in. Sugar cane fields give way to guava forests as I make my trek towards the ocean. The gravel road gives way to lava rock and the sunset gives way to night. The sky to the east is aglow red and orange from the volcano up the mountain. The road is now completely gone, replaced with lava rocks the size of trucks. I abandon my car and take out my machette and cut my way through bushes and trees. Now theres nowhere left to go at a cliff overlooking the ocean. With the waves crashing over and over and over, it's like being back in my mother's bosom.

MK: You come upon an obstacle. What is it? How do you overcome it?
I equip "Boots of Levitation" and jump over it.
Okay, seriously, a tree has fallen across the road. I carefully pick my way through the branches.

The obstacle is I haven't been getting enough sleep. I am overcoming the obstacle by going to bed now.
Posted by: Truthseeker at January 17, 2008 4:03 AM

As you are walking down the road you come upon a key. Describe your key and tell me what you do with it...
Upon inspection I did not recognize the key. I thought about putting it in my pocket anyway but instead I placed it back where I'd found it and marked it with a stick. Continuing down the road I asked my neighbor Dan if he had lost a key and told them that I had found one down the road a piece and marked it with a stick. He said that he had not lost a key but he would keep his ears open. On my way back home I noticed that the key was gone. Three days later , I was walking down the same road and I came upon a large crowd of people gathering around this harmonious sound. I couldn't help myself and I began following along and listening to the harmonious sounds. As I got closer I realized the harmonious that was fillling the air was actually coming from the pocket of the man that the crowd had gathered around. I stopped and asked him his name. He said my name is Doug and that harmonious sound you hear is this old silver key of mine. I said, WOW, that is amazing, I saw that key on the road a few days ago and picked it up but at that time it wasn't making that beautiful harmonious sound. He told me that the key had originally been given to him by an old mouth harp player named Desert Slim. Legend has it that Slim spent his entire life playing mouth harp with that key in his front pocket and now whenever the winds come out of the West the key vibrates with the sounds of Desert Slims mouth harp. Now whenever the wind is out of the west people from all around come back to this road to find Doug and to enjoy the harmonious sounds emanating from that old silver key.
Posted by: Truthseeker at January 28, 2008 2:26 AM

The key is old and silver, worn but of high quality and workmanship. Is this a picture in my brain from long ago?
There is still mystery in the world, the key seems to have a faint vibration about it, and it feels slightly warmer than the ambient. Not one to pass by. I put it in my pocket, and hold it in my hand from time to time. Is that a far off beautious harmony I hear?
Posted by: Doug at January 27, 2008 8:47 AM

MK: Okay, you continue on your road and come upon a cup. Describe your cup and tell me what you do with it.
Blue, thin metal coated with enamel, having a handle like an oversized coffee cup. I take it around the next bend in the road, where the little waterfall comes down over the rocks at the side of the road, and leave it for the next traveler.
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/07/the_ban_with_no.html#comments
Johns answers are here:
Posted by: MK [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 17, 2007 7:22 PM


MK, I come to a body of water.
It is a round lake, jewel-blue, and totally still. Reflected in it are puffy clouds, trundling their way across the sky like majestic sheep. I'm reluctant to disturb it; I sit and just watch it for a while. The nature of the physical world.
Finally I get up and swim across, taking time to dive down and look at the bottom, and to float on my back and see the sheep once more.
Posted by: Doug at January 28, 2008 8:56 AM

On the other side of the water you come to an island. A storm is brewing. What do you do for shelter?
I'm on the island, and a storm is brewing. I don't see much decent shelter on the island, so I swin on across to the other shore.
Posted by: Doug at January 28, 2008 11:44 AM


MK: The wall is as high as eternity. As far to the left and right as eternity. As deep as eternity. As thick as eternity.

What do you do?


Looks like that way is fairly well blocked. I turn around and go the other way on the road, seeing where that end of it leads.

Doug

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 12:15 PM


Let me know when you are around Doug and we'll go over the answers...I'll be gone this afternoon but hopefully will be back tonite...

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 12:16 PM


"Does the fact that you have already ended the life of someone(s) you found inconvenient, make it easier for you to side with the mother in this situation?"

I'm also not siding with anyone. But I do think it's selfish of the father to prolong everyone's suffering because he can't handle the fact his daughter has passed on. Still, who knows what I would do in that situation, it would be so hard if that was one of my daughters. The whole thing is very sad. I just hope the family can work out a resolution and keep the United States Senate focused on other issues.

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 12:17 PM


There is a big difference between being hooked up to life support with no brain activity and no hope of recovery and taking out a feeding tube to starve someone to death. Lauren is not terminally ill, the machines are not keeping her alive. I am looking at this as a mother and as a former special ed teacher. I would go to the ends of the earth for my children and err on the side of life for them. I worked with severely, profoundly handicapped children, most with feeding tubes and no communication skills. But they had names, families that loved and cared for them and they were given dignity and treated with love, care and compassion. They were beautiful to God and to me and I am so grateful for what they taught me. Life is precious!!

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 12:20 PM


AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LIVING WILL, MAKE ONE.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:21 PM


PIP:

I now condone systematic murder? Ststematic murder is abortion defined. Systematic murder is the Holocaust. Systematic murder is 9/11. Systematic murder is Darfur. You equate the State administering justice in a capital crimes case as systematic murder? What planet are you on?

Let me say it another way, it takes work to be a Christian. Some time it tormets me to have Jesus say, "bless and do not curse" and to "forgive so that you will be forgiven" when my sinful nature wants to do nither. My flesh wants to lash out at those who kill infants in the womb but God says to forgive them. My flesh wants to handle guys like Hal in a manly way but the Spirit syas to love him. That is what I meant by tormenting. The flesh battling the Spirit.

Paul himself said he battled with the sin in his life. I and we all have the same battle.

PIP: Do you get some sort of pleasure in twisting what I say?

So I am clear in understanding who I am debating please tell me what your positions are of the following:

Abortion:
Capital Punishment:
Euthanasia:
Assisted Suicide:

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 12:25 PM


Look out, HisMan, your chauvanism is showing!

"the manly way"? Oh, you mean the VIOLENT way.

Nice priorities and sexism, dude.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:26 PM


Erin:

Now the name calling starts?

Dudette, I knew you'd latch onto that one. Your feminazism is showing. Can't stand maleness can you? What...are you a lesbian? Your cat claws are showing, etc., etc.,etc.

It's fruitless and if you or PIP does it again, I'm out of here because it's simply a huge waste of time.


Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 12:37 PM


"My flesh wants to handle guys like Hal in a manly way but the Spirit syas to love him"

So, you love me?

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 12:38 PM


OK, I cant help myself: This article links my state and an inmate(s) that should be put to death.


Callahan, who is now scheduled to die at 6 p.m. Thursday at Holman prison near Atmore, was sentenced to death for the kidnapping, rape and murder of Jacksonville State University student Rebecca Suzanne Howell on Feb. 4, 1982. Authorities said she was abducted from a coin laundry in Jacksonville and raped before being strangled and dumped in Tallasseehatchee Creek.

Callahan raped this woman, and then strangled her to death. And Jill is complaining that he got a stay of execution? THIS IS TOTAL B.S.!!!!

He got a stay of execution b/c he decided to change his from of execution. In Alabama an inamte has the choice of either death by lethal injection or death by electric chair. He first chose the electric chair (b/c letahl injection was not used in this state untill the late 90's).
Please explain to me how that makes sense!? I am paying for his expenses; while he gets medical care, three meals a day, and a bed to sleep in?

He has said that if he were ever released again, he would rape and kill again (if given the chance).

And while I am ranting about this: On Dec. 5, the Supreme Court stopped the execution of another Alabama death row inmate, Tommy Arthur, one day before he was scheduled to die by lethal injection at Holman prison. He now has an "indefinite stay of execution" b/c he has pancreatic cancer. They Alabama Supreme court ruled he is "too sick to be put to death". Give me a freaking break. I am paying for him to recieve cancer treatments that will save his life when he doesnt deserve to breathe.

Alabama is waiting on the U.S. Supreme Court to rule on a similar case in Kentucky untill they "revise" their decision.

Arthur was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death for shooting Troy Wicker, of Muscle Shoals, through the right eye as he slept. The victim's wife, Judy Wicker, was involved with Arthur and testified she paid him $10,000 to kill her husband in 1981.

Now why does someone who is that evil deserve to live?

Posted by: midnite678 at February 1, 2008 12:40 PM


Right....the Iraqis were definitely better off with Saddam Hussein....give me a break.

HisMan, didn't say that. I was all for taking Saddam out the first time around - then we really had world opinion behind us and he'd just invaded Kuwait. My point is that Iraq has not been "solved" like WW II was ended by dropping A-bombs on Japan.
.....

By their own admission, various Iraqi Generals admitted that Saddam Insane had WMDs that were shipped to Syria. You hear nothing about this in the media.

Well, I'm sure he wanted WMDs, and that he was working towards it for a while.
......

By the way, now that things are getting better in Iraq, why has the propaganda wing of the Democratic Party...MSNBC, CNN, etc., etc. now shifted the interest to the economy? Why does Bill Clinton want a recession? Have you heard the idiot speak about this?

Don't know what Willy said, but I also give him no credit for caring about the US economy, really. He benefitted politically from certain trends when he was in office, but they were not due to any action on his part.

A "War" in the news is usally big news, but it's been long enough with Iraq that it's "old news" to a larger extent now. The economy is always a big deal, and IMO we are headed into a time of generally falling standards of living for Americans, and this will occur regardless of politics. People vote their pocketbook, first and foremost, and when the economy is an issue it's a big one.

FWIW I'm surprised at the "concern" which admittedly does seem a bit sudden, giving that things have not changed much, not much at all versus how I think they will, in the end.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 12:41 PM


Ugh, the economy is going to H-E-double hockey sticks. To be honest, though, I don't get it. I consider myself reasonable intelligent, but I do not, never have, and probably never will, understand economics. It just makes no sense to me at all.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:46 PM


Let me know when you are around Doug and we'll go over the answers...I'll be gone this afternoon but hopefully will be back tonite...

MK, I just went back and read the other responses in the past and the analyses - very, very interesting, cool, and fun too.

I'll be online later today, not doing anything special, just likely online or playing computer games.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 12:48 PM



AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LIVING WILL, MAKE ONE.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:21 PM

Because they err on the side of death.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 1, 2008 12:48 PM


...wha?

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:49 PM


Erin:

I've had a living will since I was 16 (old enough to drive). I've also got a power of attorney too. If I am in a persistent vegetative state, my parents, and my lawyer know to pull the plug so I can die peacefully.

If I am unconsious and can not make medical decions for myself, my mother knows what I would or would not want done to save my life.

I am also an organ donor.

Posted by: midnite678 at February 1, 2008 12:53 PM


Elizabeth,

I just think if there are people who are willing to take care of the person..then WHY won't someone let them? That I have to say baffles me.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:49 AM

As long as Terri was alive, her husband was her heir. I don't know if she had assets he wanted but if he divorced her, it would legally be abandonment and would cost him a lot and he would not inherit or collect insurance at her death. It is possible in Terri's case that finances were an issue. I don't know.

I think it varies somewhat state to state when someone is a legal guardian if they are also the heir etc. If mom loses custody of her legally incompetent daughter, it could make a financial difference.

When you can't see the obvious reasons, check out the financial aspect.

Posted by: hippie at February 1, 2008 12:58 PM


"
AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LIVING WILL, MAKE ONE.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 12:21 PM

Because they err on the side of death.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 1, 2008 12:48 PM

...wha?"

Erin, I think Anonymous is saying that one shouldn't make a living will because they err on the side of death.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 1, 2008 12:59 PM


Ugh, the economy is going to H-E-double hockey sticks.

Erin, I think that in the future a LOT of people are gonna feel that way, or that it's already there.

Not saying "The End is Near," but that we've lived beyond our means as a country for a few decades now, pretty seriously, and even gov't finagling cannot get around that. Things are rarely actually as good or bad as they seem, but market behavior is a study of human emotion going from one extreme to another, and I think a swing to pessimism is underway.

The economy is just services and goods, produced and paid for. It is the relative wealth and purchasing power of an individual or group, all the way up to a nation or group of nations.

Rather than the production of wealth (goods and services) increasing in the US to keep pace with our higher consumption, we've facilitated it by going into debt further and further, on personal, corporate, and governmental levels.

Really easy example: I have $100. I deposit it in a bank, and they can then lend out a portion of it. You come in and borrow $80. You can now spend the $80, and I still have my $100 should I want to withdraw it. The bank owes me, and you owe the bank. As long as the total debt is increasing, money can be "printed" or "created out of thin air", as my $100 became $180 between you, me, and the bank.

Problems really come when you cannot pay back the $80, or the bank can't give me my $100, and we are going along that road.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 1:01 PM


A living will errs on the side of whatever YOU decide it should err on. If you want a feeding tube to stay if you end up in a PVS, you can write that down and have it witnessed. It will be obligatory for that wish to be granted just as much as one to have it removed.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 1:02 PM


If I am in a persistent vegetative state, my parents, and my lawyer know to pull the plug so I can die peacefully.

There's no plug to pull...she's not on a respirator..she is breathing for herself. What you want is for them to starve you to death. Okay.

Well she has NO living will of that sort and her father is completely willing to take care of her..so they should let him. The mother can grieve all she wants to if her daughter "isn't really there anymore." That is what you all claim isn't it? So if she's not there..her physical body shouldn't matter..the mother can mourn the loss of her anyway.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 1:07 PM


I was just going to say the same thing! :)

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 1:10 PM


Elizabeth:

You're correct, there is no plug to pull, it is a figure of speech.

If I am in a vegetative state, and I have no cognitive ability; then yes I want to die. I dont want to burden my family to pay medical bills that are uneccesarry.

If there is no chance of me ever waking up, but I amn breathing on my own, then yes I do not want to be fed either. My family, and my lawyer knows that I do not want to live in that state, and I would rather die.


Posted by: midnite678 at February 1, 2008 1:11 PM


MidNite678:

I'm glad you're back. I really want to stop the name calling so, please don't call me anything. I think you are very smart but sometimes your anger gets in the way, as it does me. My very bad side will want to give it back and that would be very wrong of me. Let me tell you as an old man, that you will be much further ahead if you learn how to control your anger, and anger is a very natural emotion, I understand, but improperly exercised, very destructive.

I do care about you though.

Erin:

I agree that a living will is a must. That is extremely prudent advice. I could understand how one would desire to die if they were being kept alive by artificial means, however, let's say they pulled the plug, and you remained alive, would you want then to be starved to death?

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 1:12 PM


HisMan- personally? Yes. I do not wish to stay alive in any kind of comatose state. But I do know that that kind of wish varies from person to person. I wish that creating a living will was just one of those things that every one did, like getting their license at 16 or applying for a credit card. It should be one of those automatic things.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 1:17 PM


I was with both my parents as they were dying. Both lapsed into comas --- my mother's lasted 2 weeks. It is very sad and hard on the family but it was part of the process of their lives coming to an end. Both received food and hydration during that time and my brothers and I stayed with them.

Neither of my parents were on respirators and both had living wills. Their bodies shutdown naturally and they died. During that time neither showed any pain and if they did, we could have had them medicated. Hospice care is wonderful in its attention to the patient and their family.

While my Mom was in her coma, she appeared to have differing levels of lucideness (I don't know if that is the right term). Sometimes she appeared to be more restful than others and before she died she seemed very peaceful and more relaxed. I felt she was working out a few things before she died --- as if she were on another plane.

The story of Lauren does not seem show that her systems are shutting down --- dying on their own. She doesn't need a respirator, just care. It seems she also has the support of one family member and at least one medical professional.

I don't see why they need to rush her into a grave --- we don't know what is going on behind the veil of her coma. Why not err on the side of life?

I also pray that the parties on both sides won't attack her dignity by waging another painful public battle. A person is neither an pesky inconvenience or a billboard.

Posted by: Anon anon at February 1, 2008 1:19 PM


Midnite,

Now why does someone who is that evil deserve to live?

He doesn't. That's the point. Here we have a totally depraved individual the the state is agonizing over because the poor fella might feel a sting when he's given his shot,

Yet a perfectly healthy, innocent of any depraved crime (unless you count heroin use as a depraved crime) being put to death in an extremely painful, long and drawn out process..starvation and dehydration.

Seems nuts, doesn't it?

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 1:20 PM


HisMan:

Fine. I wont call you names if you dont call me names or insult my intelligence first.

Posted by: midnite678 at February 1, 2008 1:21 PM


MK- the parts of her brain that register pain no longer function.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 1:21 PM


Erin, I think Anonymous is saying that one shouldn't make a living will because they err on the side of death.

I think she means "those in charge" err on the side of death, so if you want to be kept alive, write it down...

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 1:25 PM


MK:

Unless this girl had a living will (which apprently she didnt); a Court will have to decide which parent gets the final say in her life.

My living will was wintnessed by two people and notorized to boot. I want no "loop-holes" if I slip into a state like that.

And for the record, yes, I would want to be starved to death if I was breathing on my own.

Posted by: midnite678 at February 1, 2008 1:26 PM


Erin,
How do you know that the parts of her brain that register pain no longer function?

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 1:30 PM


Erin,

MK- the parts of her brain that register pain no longer function.

You (nor I, nor the doctors) have any way of knowing what she is feeling.

Just because the part of her brain that allows her to communicate is no longer functioning, it doesn't mean that the part of her brain that can "take in information" isn't functioning.

I'd venture to say that without an autopsy (and even then, you couldn't be sure) no one can know what "is working". Maybe only one burner is working. Maybe there is only one crayon in the box. You can still color and you can still cook.

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 1:32 PM


Global aphasia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The symptoms of global aphasia are those of severe Broca's aphasia and Wernicke's aphasia combined. There is an almost total reduction of all aspects of spoken and written language, in expression as well as comprehension. Improvement may occur in one or both areas (expressive and receptive) over time with rehabilitation. What is interesting to point out is that in patients of global aphasia other cognitive skills remain functioning - a phenomenon affirming that language faculty is indeed a separate domain.

Global aphasia is a type of aphasia that is usually associated with a large lesion in the presylvian area. It involves a "left side blowout" which includes Broca's area, Wernicke's area and the Arcuate fasciculus.

When injury initially occurs to all of these areas, the progression starts out with Global aphasia in the first 1-2 days due brain swelling (Edema). From there it evolves into Brocas or Wernicke's aphasia for 1-3 months (usually Broca's), then it resolves into a presidual anomic aphasia. Studies show that spontaneous improvement, if it happens, occurs within six months, but complete recovery is rare.

Persons with global aphasia are usually mute or use repetitive vocalization. The person frequently uses simple words such as expletives. They are marked by a severe impairment of both understanding and expression of language.

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 1:33 PM


I think all of us should take what has happened to Lauren as a lesson.

1. Don't get hooked on heroin, (don't think you can get away with the first hit and not get hooked).

2. Don't have irresponsible sex (sex outside of marriage).

3. Clearly communicate your wishes in a living will.

Isn't it something how when we sow the wind we reap the whirlwind?

God says, "I present before you both life and death, choose life".

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 1:52 PM


It's pretty easy to determine a person's capacity to feel pain. Advanced brain scans can analyze the part of the brain responsible for turning neural transmissions into a comprehension of pain. When diagnosing a PVS, this is one of the tools used.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 1:53 PM


MK,
You mentioned that starving and dehydrating a young woman to death is painful. Erin stated that this woman has no sense of pain. So that must make it ok.

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 2:01 PM


Lauren Richardson (Like Terri) has been ORDERED to die by a PROLONGED death process (removing her feeding tube and starving and dehydrating someone to death is a PROLONGED death process.)

This something that COULD NEVER be done to a death row inmate without violating the 9th Admendent of the Constitution which forbids Cruel and Unusual Treatment.

Unfortunately, Lauren (and Terri) is not a convicted criminal.

Lauren is not entitled to protection from Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

Posted by: james at February 1, 2008 2:07 PM


8th Amendment, but we knew what you meant.

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 2:09 PM


Hal:

I love you not in the sense that I have feelings for you but in the sense that God loves you, died for you and commands me to love you. I know for a fact God loves you, however, His heart was broken when your children were prematurely terminated. He can restore them fully in heaven as He already has, however, his heart broke for the joy, the love, and all that you and your wife lost as a result of the decision to abort them. His heart will also break if you continue to reject Him for you were not created to spend eternity in hell.

The agape love of the Bible is not the eros (feeling love) of the world. I agape you Hal (and go ahead, make a joke about that). How do I agape you? By preaching God's truth to you and not wavering from it.

I am sorry for the bad words in the past, OK? I don't like what you did and I don't like the fact that you try to defend the decision on this site, however, that's in the past and I know God forgives and has a great plan and great life in store for you if you would just let Him in. A man after God's own heart is not perfect but one who will admit his mistakes and then forgetting them, seek to serve God for the rest of his life. King David committed adultery and then had the husband murdered on the battledfield to cover up the adultery. He repented and went on to serve God. Paul was a murderer and changed. Moses was a murderer and changed.

We can all be forgiven, if we confess and turn away from the evil we have committed. That is the purpose and message of the cross.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 2:10 PM


Erin:

A brain scan can never touch the spirit of the person which in my opinion can feel even more extreme pain than we can imagine.

God says, "I present before you both life and death, choose life".

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 2:14 PM


thanks for your kind words HisMan. I won't make a joke about it.

I have to run, have a great day everyone.

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 2:17 PM


Erin

Were you the one who mentioned the film "Brick" the other day? If so, it's on TV right now and I'm watching it....well, half-watching it and half typing on here..but I will let you know what I think. What did you think of it?

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 2:23 PM


Ahhh! Yes!!

It's such a wonderful, unique movie. Brilliantly made and so intense.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 2:28 PM


Erin,

Yeah..I'm still trying to figure it out, because it was already 10 minutes in when I started watching it.

I also can't really figure out why they keep hitting joseph gordon-levitt..but I think it may be because he's trying to solve the murder?

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 2:30 PM


HisMan,
Your 2:10 post was beautiful.

Posted by: Sunshine at February 1, 2008 2:37 PM


Yep, that's it, Elizabeth.

I was a fan of Tug's character.

Posted by: Erin at February 1, 2008 2:43 PM


"I now condone systematic murder? Ststematic murder is abortion defined."
Yeah...that's why I am against that, too.

"Systematic murder is the Holocaust. Systematic murder is 9/11. Systematic murder is Darfur."
Yes, and I think we all agree these are atrocities.

"You equate the State administering justice in a capital crimes case as systematic murder? What planet are you on?"
apparently the planet of reason, or consistency. What you call justice is systematic murder. Systematic murder- methodical killing of people who are now at your mercy with no regards to their humanity.
It's like calling abortion "choice." Why call "justice" when you can just call it murder. Same thing.

"Let me say it another way, it takes work to be a Christian. Some time it tormets me to have Jesus say, "bless and do not curse" and to "forgive so that you will be forgiven" when my sinful nature wants to do nither. My flesh wants to lash out at those who kill infants in the womb but God says to forgive them. My flesh wants to handle guys like Hal in a manly way but the Spirit syas to love him. That is what I meant by tormenting. The flesh battling the Spirit."
Yes so wouldn't your desire for revenge against a prisoner be considered something that you must push aside when taking such a stance. We all want these guys to get exactly like they got. but the Spirit says to love them. The emotions battling the spirit. Doing the right thing is hard.


"Paul himself said he battled with the sin in his life. I and we all have the same battle."
I agree there.


"PIP: Do you get some sort of pleasure in twisting what I say?"
No I simply don't understand how you can say we have no right to take away anyones life but then deny prisoners as persons. That's the only way I can understand how you find reason in what you are saying. Am I twisting your words by saying "you don't condone murder, except when that person is a prisoner?"
This seems quite obvious to me.

So I am clear in understanding who I am debating please tell me what your positions are of the following:

Abortion: against
Capital Punishment: against
Euthanasia: against
Assisted Suicide: against

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 2:52 PM


SamanthaT, very quick on the Don't support the troops. Ususally thought that comes a lot quicker!

Posted by: PeachPit at February 1, 2008 4:52 PM


Erin,

A paralyzed person can think. They just can't move.

Since you can't tell how much she is thinking, and you can't tell how she is able to move voluntarily, she could be 100% here mentally but unable to communicate. We just don't know. Certainly you don't know.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 1, 2008 4:56 PM


OK PIP:

I see what you are saying now. I think we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. But......you said:

"Yes so wouldn't your desire for revenge against a prisoner be considered something that you must push aside when taking such a stance. We all want these guys to get exactly like they got. but the Spirit says to love them. The emotions battling the spirit. Doing the right thing is hard."

I really don't like or want or have any desire for somebody to be killed for revenge. In fact, when Bush did not pardon that Christian woman for murder I was dismayed. However, this type of thing is not in my hands. If it were me, I probably couldn't execute someone for whatever, though I may emotionally want to. The Lord says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay". So if the Lord instituted government to keep us safe, punish evildoers, and to execute His vengeance via the State etc., etc., why would that not include capital punishment? It's not me doing it, it's the State.

I can't declare war on another country as an individual, but the State can. Why? Because the State has a God-given mandate to do such. Now if you're saying the State is wrong because it is not following God's will, I would agree with you as far as abortion is concerned. But abortion and capital punishment are not any where near the same thing.

The State executing someone for evil is based on a trial and conviction and sentencing and a formal appeal process and then execution and that usually by an unnamed and unknown executioner (of the State), i.e. the State.

Kavorkian wanted to take the law into his own hands and become judge, jury and executioner because of his personal opinions. That's why he went to jail.

Abortion is carried out with no trial and no conviction and the executionee is always, always innocent. Further, the very giver and bearer of the of life of the child becomes the executioner if not directly then indirectly by her consent and desire. There's absolutely no comparison. This is the heart of the entire debate. Pro-lifers think the State is being totally misguided in making abortion legal because, it is God who says that is wrong, not we that say it is wrong. If it's just my opinion, I have no standing or reason to argue with a pro-choicer. It's because of God's revealed will that I am anti-abortion plus His command to be salt and light.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 5:27 PM


"So if the Lord instituted government to keep us safe, punish evildoers, and to execute His vengeance via the State etc., etc."
What is the state? It is not governed by divine rule. It is governed by the people. Instead of punative protection (that life in prison provides) you are asking PEOPLE to kill OTHER PEOPLE.

"It's not me doing it, it's the State."
To me, that's like you are saying "I personally could never have an abortion, but it's not me doing it, it's another pregnant woman. God will eventually let them have it."
We should work for social justice...that's partly what Christians are obligated to do.

"Because the State has a God-given mandate to do such."
(Just) war is a separate idea than capital punishment for several reasons. But most importantly, why do you feel our government has a God given mandate for everything it does?

"The State executing someone for evil is based on a trial and conviction and sentencing and a formal appeal process and then execution and that usually by an unnamed and unknown executioner (of the State), i.e. the State."
It is applied arbitrarily and often in a racist fashion; it costs the "state" millions of dollars per person; it does not act as a deterrent. The fact that someone is "tried" is not a valid reason to kill them. They "tried" Jesus; although innocent he was sentenced to death by the crowed (i.e. jury). Nowadays with lethal injection this "executioner" (who is merely a symbol) often works in the health care field, leaving a SERIOUS breach of ethics.

"Kavorkian wanted to take the law into his own hands and become judge, jury and executioner because of his personal opinions. That's why he went to jail."
Really...I thought that was because he killed people.

"Abortion is carried out with no trial and no conviction and the executionee is always, always innocent."
Does guilt or innocence play a large part in the ability to kill someone? Because you can easily say that Lauren deserves to die, she did do illegal activities and put her and her unborn child in danger. She should be executed, because she is in no way innocent.
There's the thing. If you want to bring spirituality into it, every one of us is guilty; we all struggle with sin, we all disobey God's commands, but he provides a way for us to redeem ourselves. Putting someone in prison for life similarly punishes and protects, at the same time giving a chance for spiritual (or if innocent of the crime, physical) redemption.

"Further, the very giver and bearer of the of life of the child becomes the executioner if not directly then indirectly by her consent and desire."
What would you say about state executioners? Will they go to heaven? They are helping the state rule (divine right).

"here's absolutely no comparison. This is the heart of the entire debate."
Ahh but there is a comparison. The fact is, whether you treat the prisoner as a person or not (which coincidently is the same argument as abortion). If the prisoner is effectively not a person we are just in killing them, just like a dog who attacks another can be put down. But if the prisoner is a person, and can be protected from society, then no matter what earthly actions that person has taken nobody has the right to take their life. It is a superfluous needless killing.

" Pro-lifers think the State is being totally misguided in making abortion legal because, it is God who says that is wrong, not we that say it is wrong."
God seems to say that killing is wrong:
Thou shalt not kill
We are made in the image of God; destruction of that image is a destruction of God in the person; we have no authority over the lives of others whatsoever, only God does
We are to forgive those who have wronged us (specifically Mt 5:38 comes to mind)
We have to keep his commandments
When killing is unnecessary (unlike war or active self defense) it is a moral wrong.

You only need to look inside your own community:
"The Catholic Church has spoken against capital punishment in the United States since the debate over its practice in 1972. In 1974, the U.S. Catholic Conference had gone on record in opposition to capital punishment (Resolution Against Capital Punishment). In 1982, Pope John Paul II addressed the diplomats of several countries advocating the rights of prisoners, which include the abolition of the death penalty. In 1999, Pope John Paul II said that the penalty of death is “both cruel and unnecessary”(USCCB 2006). The Bishops of individual states in the U.S. have upheld that position, including the Bishops of Oklahoma, Tennessee, California, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Missouri (Melton).
The Bishops of Oklahoma in particular issued an addendum in response to the use of lethal drug injections in executions. They said, “the use of health-care professionals and the health-care industry, whose occupation is to maintain human health and prevent death, to kill, we find to be both repugnant and open to dangerous developments. This use of health-care professionals could condition both the professionals and the public to accept the notion of death at the hands of the physician” (Statement in Opposition). They also mentioned the involvement of German medical professionals under Nazi rule, taking part in the massacre of millions of people, as an example of what it could lead to (Megivern 375).
Many other churches also reflect this point of view. The American Baptist Churches, American Friends, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, Episcopal Church, Lutheran Church in America, Greek Orthodox Church, National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA, Presbyterian Church in the USA, Reformed Church in America, United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, and several Jewish groups have all taken official stances opposing the death penalty (Melton). The American Baptist Churches in particular drafted a Resolution on Medical Societies and Capital Punishment by Lethal Injection in 1982, supporting the American Medical Association’s opposition to physician involvement. Prompted by the lethal injection execution of Thomas Lee Hays in Oklahoma, the church reaffirmed its opposition to the death penalty as well as the recognition that involvement would be a blatant disregard for the Hippocratic Oath (Melton).


" It's because of God's revealed will that I am anti-abortion plus His command to be salt and light."
God has commanded us to work for those who are victims of injustice. Social justice is key. We need to be equally concerned with other injustice in society, like a seamless cloak. Turning a blind eye to victims of injustice is like the good Samaritan story, where even priests looked the other way. This is falling from the path.

Trivia (anyone feel free to respond)
Who said, "If you want peace, work for justice"?

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 6:16 PM


Was it MKL?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 1, 2008 6:19 PM


Oops, MLK.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 1, 2008 6:19 PM


no Bobby, I found it but cheated. Woo for google, lol.


In other news I got my Obama signs :D Woo!!

Posted by: Dan at February 1, 2008 6:20 PM


Pope Paul VI

Posted by: Hal at February 1, 2008 6:20 PM


Wow, okay, I just looked it up online... I'm ashamed..

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 1, 2008 6:21 PM


PIP, I don't agree with all your beliefs, but holy @#^%$*&?! you do a good job explaining yourself and your position.

I am so impressed with the "young" people on Jill's blog (now that I'm an "old" guy in my 40s.)

You have a heck of a lot of energy, too. Keep on rocking.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 1, 2008 6:34 PM


Hal got it!

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 6:38 PM


It's okay Bobby :)


Thanks Doug :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 1, 2008 6:39 PM


"What is the state? It is not governed by divine rule. It is governed by the people. Instead of punative protection (that life in prison provides) you are asking PEOPLE to kill OTHER PEOPLE."
In the Book of Romans God says He instituted government, look it up.

"To me, that's like you are saying "I personally could never have an abortion, but it's not me doing it, it's another pregnant woman. God will eventually let them have it."
We should work for social justice...that's partly what Christians are obligated to do."
What is justice, but doing the right thing for the right reasons. A murderer should be dealt with in teh right way for the right reasons.

"(Just) war is a separate idea than capital punishment for several reasons. But most importantly, why do you feel our government has a God given mandate for everything it does?"
I don't, not when what the government does conflicts with Scripture as in legalizin abortion...please read my previous posts. I thought that this was clear in my last post.

"It is applied arbitrarily and often in a racist fashion; it costs the "state" millions of dollars per person; it does not act as a deterrent. The fact that someone is "tried" is not a valid reason to kill them. They "tried" Jesus; although innocent he was sentenced to death by the crowed (i.e. jury). Nowadays with lethal injection this "executioner" (who is merely a symbol) often works in the health care field, leaving a SERIOUS breach of ethics."
That's a stretch...try again.

"Really...I thought that was because he killed people."
Hello, hello, anyone in there that can hear me?

"Does guilt or innocence play a large part in the ability to kill someone? Because you can easily say that Lauren deserves to die, she did do illegal activities and put her and her unborn child in danger. She should be executed, because she is in no way innocent. There's the thing. If you want to bring spirituality into it, every one of us is guilty; we all struggle with sin, we all disobey God's commands, but he provides a way for us to redeem ourselves. Putting someone in prison for life similarly punishes and protects, at the same time giving a chance for spiritual (or if innocent of the crime, physical) redemption."
I never said Lauren deserved to die. Where did you ever get that? You have a way of injecting hyperbole into your arguments that end up twisting what the other person said so you can feel good about what you have just twisted. I am guity of a lot of things, none of which deserve the death penalty. Same with a baby in the womb who has done nothing wrong, ever once. I didn't know that in this day and age, in this country, that getting pregnant out of wedlock and doing heroin deserved capital punishment. I do believe however, that punishment should fit the crime. You would do very well to take a course in logical thinking because PIP, your answers are overly emotional and border on irrational.


"What would you say about state executioners? Will they go to heaven? They are helping the state rule (divine right)." Don't know, I can't see into their hearts and decipher their motives.

"Ahh but there is a comparison. The fact is, whether you treat the prisoner as a person or not (which coincidently is the same argument as abortion). If the prisoner is effectively not a person we are just in killing them, just like a dog who attacks another can be put down. But if the prisoner is a person, and can be protected from society, then no matter what earthly actions that person has taken nobody has the right to take their life. It is a superfluous needless killing."
Again, your logic is flawed. Pro-aborts try to justify the murder of babies by saying they are not persons and therefore killing them is not murder. A pro-lifer's response is that a baby is a person, therefore it is murder. The fact that a murderer is a person doesn't prevent them from being executed for the crime they committed.


"God seems to say that killing is wrong:
Thou shalt not kill"
No, the commandment says not to murder.

"We are made in the image of God; destruction of that image is a destruction of God in the erson; we have no authority over the lives of others whatsoever, only God does. We are to forgive those who have wronged us (specifically Mt 5:38 comes to mind). We have to keep his commandments
When killing is unnecessary (unlike war or active self defense) it is a moral wrong."
Again PIP, an answer not based on logic but on emotion. The fact is that God does forgive us for sins we committ but very often he leaves us to suffer the consequencs of those wrong actions. I could forgive someone for murdering another peron, however, they must still bear the consequences for the murder. How many mothers have aborted their babies, been forgiven by God, but still bear the consequences of their actions in the form of guilt, psychological problems. etc. I mean, why do you think God hates sin? It's because he understands how its consequences hurt us. But God is also a being of utter integrity who will not let sin go unpunished.

If someone robs a bank should we forgive them and just let them out of jail because we are so good hearted? The robber broke the law knowing the consequences and now the consequences must be suffered. Otherwise the law is of no effect and anarchy results.

God's forgiveness releases us from the penalty of sin, which is eternal separation from Him, it does not release us from the earthly consequences of out actions. "You will reap what you sow".

"You only need to look inside your own community:
"The Catholic Church has spoken against capital punishment in the United States since the debate over its practice in 1972. In 1974, the U.S. Catholic Conference had gone on record in opposition to capital punishment (Resolution Against Capital Punishment). In 1982, Pope John Paul II addressed the diplomats of several countries advocating the rights of prisoners, which include the abolition of the death penalty. In 1999, Pope John Paul II said that the penalty of death is “both cruel and unnecessary”(USCCB 2006). The Bishops of individual states in the U.S. have upheld that position, including the Bishops of Oklahoma, Tennessee, California, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Missouri (Melton).
The Bishops of Oklahoma in particular issued an addendum in response to the use of lethal drug injections in executions. They said, “the use of health-care professionals and the health-care industry, whose occupation is to maintain human health and prevent death, to kill, we find to be both repugnant and open to dangerous developments. This use of health-care professionals could condition both the professionals and the public to accept the notion of death at the hands of the physician” (Statement in Opposition). They also mentioned the involvement of German medical professionals under Nazi rule, taking part in the massacre of millions of people, as an example of what it could lead to (Megivern 375).
Many other churches also reflect this point of view. The American Baptist Churches, American Friends, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, Episcopal Church, Lutheran Church in America, Greek Orthodox Church, National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA, Presbyterian Church in the USA, Reformed Church in America, United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, and several Jewish groups have all taken official stances opposing the death penalty (Melton). The American Baptist Churches in particular drafted a Resolution on Medical Societies and Capital Punishment by Lethal Injection in 1982, supporting the American Medical Association’s opposition to physician involvement. Prompted by the lethal injection execution of Thomas Lee Hays in Oklahoma, the church reaffirmed its opposition to the death penalty as well as the recognition that involvement would be a blatant disregard for the Hippocratic Oath (Melton)."
I disagree with the Catholic Church on those issues which digress from sound Biblical principles.

"God has commanded us to work for those who are victims of injustice. Social justice is key. We need to be equally concerned with other injustice in society, like a seamless cloak. Turning a blind eye to victims of injustice is like the good Samaritan story, where even priests looked the other way. This is falling from the path.
A murderer is not a victim of social injustice.

"Trivia (anyone feel free to respond)
Who said, "If you want peace, work for justice"?"
Here's what I say to that PIP, if God were to give us the justice we deserved, we'd all be in Hell. None of us deserves what Christ did for us on the cross. I say, want peace? Spread the Gospel of Peace written by the Prince of Peace, who is the living Word of God without mush and with a clear contextual understanding of what is says.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 7:28 PM


Midnite,

Now why does someone who is that evil deserve to live?

He doesn't. That's the point. Here we have a totally depraved individual the the state is agonizing over because the poor fella might feel a sting when he's given his shot,

Yet a perfectly healthy, innocent of any depraved crime (unless you count heroin use as a depraved crime) being put to death in an extremely painful, long and drawn out process..starvation and dehydration.

Seems nuts, doesn't it?

Posted by: mk at February 1, 2008 1:20 PM
...............................................

Two things MK. I don't believe that starving to death would be all that painful. We don't read of anorexics describing unbearable pain. In fact, I have read that starvation causes an euphoria.
The other thing is, have you considered that the father may be hoping for a gravy train? He gets guardionship and he gets control of her disability monies as well as a tax deduction. People do the same to incompetent elderly folks all the time.
You can't tell me that this man is offering to foot the bill for the cost of keeping his daughter on artificial life support indefinately.

Posted by: Sally at February 1, 2008 7:28 PM


Sally,
You don't believe that starving to death would not be all that painful.

Remember all those joyful faces of skeletal children in refugee camps in Africa? The "starvation bunker" reserved for the euphoric demise of concentration camp prisoners in Auschwitz?

Ever gone a day without eating? Remember how not painful that was?

Posted by: carder at February 1, 2008 8:29 PM


Sally,

I saw no evidence that the young woman is on artificial life support. Did I miss something in the video?

Anorexics are people with serious psychological problems and do not experience hunger pain as you or I would. Its like people who self injure, their pain perception is not normal and neither is their psychology.
Carder makes an excellent point about the starving children. They don't look euphoric to me, nor do their hungry mothers who watch them starve. Just why do you think hungry people have resorted to cannibalism, because they're so euphoric?

Posted by: Mary at February 1, 2008 8:47 PM


Hisman,
I don't know if I have ever thanked you or given you enough credit for your posts. I love how you write and explain Scripture. I soak in every word. You are like the Dad I wish I had had.
God bless you!!!

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 8:50 PM


"I saw no evidence that the young woman is on artificial life support. Did I miss something in the video?"

While the courts have determined that feeding tubes are deemd artificial life support,

Simply looking at Lauren does not show that.

Lauren's life support is not intuitive.

Clearly, if someone is one a ventilator or a heart machine,

The question of whether or not the person is on life support is overwhelming obvious.

But, a non-dying person who simply brain damaged and who merely has simple feeding tube under his or shirt simply doesn't show a "life Support" situation.

Posted by: James at February 1, 2008 8:59 PM


James,

A brain damaged person may also be capable of eating normally. Lauren may be just such a person. They need to be fed, as does an infant. I've fed plenty.

Feeding tubes are inserted for any number of reasons. People who have suffered strokes or paralysis. Post surgically. Cancer patients. Sometimes tubes are inserted for administering medications. One could argue a baby bottle is artificial life support, since nature doesn't exactly provide them and in some instances an infant would die without one.
Some of the above mentioned people may also require catheters to empty their bladders. I suppose one could argue these are articial life support as well since if the patient can't drain his bladder, it will eventually result in death.

Posted by: Mary at February 1, 2008 9:13 PM


Sally 7:28PM

Do you think it possible that the man is simply willing to love and care for his daughter? Did you assume that the late Dana Reeve, who cared for her totally paralyzed husband, the late Christopher Reeve, for 11 years, did so to obtain some "gravy train"? Could it be she was devoted to her husband and was willing to care for him?
A young woman near us was totally paralyzed by a drunken driver. Her parents and family are devoted to her care, which is around the clock and very physically, as well as emotionally demanding. They do it because of love and devotion to their daughter.
Sometimes, believe it or not, that is why people care for a disabled family member.

Posted by: Mary at February 1, 2008 9:22 PM


Carla:

Thanks: I do have a beautiful, beautiful daughter. Her name is Mary Frances. She's 18.

She is a frshman at Northern Arizona Universtiy and has a double major of Special Education and Elementary Education. She's going to finish in three years. Guess all that beating that Hal claims I did to her has paid off (just kdding Hal).

I can't say enough good things about her and she always thanks her dad for bringing her up in the faith. On Saturday night she was home and we went to my church's prayer chapel and prayed for three hours at her suggestion. The best gift a child could give to their parent is a rock solid faith in God. She has it and I know for sure that when I am gone, her Abba Father Daddy (God), will be watching over her until we meet again.

No regrets about that.

I will continue to post truthfully as best I can and in advance forgive my sometimes hard hitting comebacks. MK has scolded me about that and I am really working hard to be nice to Hal, TR, etc. I won't water down or compromise the truth, however, for the sake of being politically correct...that's disingenuous and cheap.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 9:25 PM


Well said, Mary. Well said.

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 9:26 PM


HisMan,
Your daughter is my kind of girl. I graduated from college with degree in Elementary/Special Education as well.
You give me much hope in parenting my 4 for the glory of God. :)

Posted by: Carla at February 1, 2008 9:29 PM


Yes Mary, you are so, so right:

My wife and I took care of her invalid mother for four years.

It was terribly inconvenient but we had to do it. Her mother lived a longer life because of that and enjoyed her grandchildren, the fruits of her life.

Did I like it all the time? No, sometimes I was a bear to live with during that period. My wife wasn't alway there when I needed her. She was usually tired from lifting, feeding, washing her all day. But love requires that you do things that you don't like doing or, are inconvenient or, that disrupt your life.

The same reasoning that undergirds the decision to take care of an invalid relative or friend is the same reasoning that says abortion is wrong and should never be done despite the cost of carrying through with the pregnancy.

Our lives are mere vapors on this planet. We are here one second and gone the next. We should therefore strive to always do the right thing and be pleasing to Him that loves us and cares for us.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 9:36 PM


Carla,

I learned how to parent from the Book of Proverbs.

There are 31 Proverbs. It is no mistake that the 31st Proverb is a glorious tribute to a good woman.

Want to be that woman? Read a Proverb every day each month and doing so will give you all the wisdom you need to raise your kids to be godly kids. Also, take them to church whenever the doors are open.

So today being the first of the month is a good day to read Proverbs 1. Forget Dr. Phil and all the so-called experts, listen to God.

If you don't have a Bible you can go to www.Bible.com and read it from there online.

May God, after you have sought Him fully, bless you beyond your wildest dreams.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 9:43 PM


I am not a bible thumper, but there is a passage in the bible that goes to the heart into caring for someone (espcially one who is brain damaged):

Mathew 25:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the LEAST OF THESE brothers of mine, you did for me.'

The LEAST OF THESE is someone who can not give anything in return.

Clearly, Terri Schiavo and Lauren Richardson are among the LEAST OF THESE.

Posted by: James at February 1, 2008 9:48 PM


Carla and Hisman,

Thank you both. I've seen so many examples of devoted family members caring for disabled children, siblings, parents and grandparents. I can understand Hisman what a strain that must have put on you and your family. You're only human and of course it took a toll.
I have to give up a long planned vacation and stay with my mother instead. Her health is failing and her husband is in dementia, and becoming extremely difficult. My brother and sister help out as well, as do his children, and I can certainly do my share. She is my mother.

Posted by: Mary at February 1, 2008 9:54 PM


James,

Beautifully put.

Posted by: Mary at February 1, 2008 9:57 PM


Jeez. Just put her in suspended animation till medicine has progressed enough to put her back to normal so she can be a mother.

Although I don't think she should after overdosing on Heroin. I think we know that druggies don't make good parents.

Posted by: Clarence at February 2, 2008 12:02 AM


"In the Book of Romans God says He instituted government, look it up."
Can I place you down for an absolutist then, HisMan? Or do you think that people are capable of corruption?

"What is justice, but doing the right thing for the right reasons. A murderer should be dealt with in teh right way for the right reasons."
I agree.

"I don't, not when what the government does conflicts with Scripture as in legalizin abortion...please read my previous posts. I thought that this was clear in my last post."
I thought it was clear that the government conflicts with scripture when it systematically kills people.

"That's a stretch...try again."
Quit making excuses. Why don't you try refuting my argument.


"Hello, hello, anyone in there that can hear me?"
Eh? You said the Doctor was put in jail because he didn't leave justice to the government. I said no, it was because he simply killed people. Civil disobedience is a whole different notion.

"I never said Lauren deserved to die. Where did you ever get that?"
I was just following your arguments to its logical conclusion. If you want to talk innocence, what is innocence? What is guilt? What degree of un-innocence is necessary in order to be able to kill them sin-free?

"You have a way of injecting hyperbole into your arguments that end up twisting what the other person said so you can feel good about what you have just twisted."
Yeah talking about murder makes be feel SO AWESOME.

"..none of which deserve the death penalty."
What are these things HisMan? If you are thinking of the God-ordained "state" then each state within the "State" will have differing opinions on what deserves the death penalty. The Bible says lying is a capital crime, too. So is disobedience.

"Same with a baby in the womb who has done nothing wrong, ever once."
I do agree that they don't "deserve" the death penalty, nor should they have it. "Deserve" is not the issue here.

"I didn't know that in this day and age, in this country, that getting pregnant out of wedlock and doing heroin deserved capital punishment."
Because in this country it isn't. But are we talking about this country? You are talking about our government like it's Louis XIV (ordained by God). If this is so, you have to tell me what "innocent" means.

"I do believe however, that punishment should fit the crime."
A life for a life. The murderer will serve the rest of his life without freedom, without joy. Society will be protected. He will have his lifetime to mull over what he did. Most people would rather die than serve a lifetime in a cell. I believe that is an apt punishment that fits the crime.

" You would do very well to take a course in logical thinking because PIP, your answers are overly emotional and border on irrational"
LOL. Okay. If none of my answers make sense logically I apologize. Well, if you want to stop discussing theory and spirituality, I've got a fact sheet we can go over. Whenever you are ready. I'll make sure to be dispassionate when we do. Stone cold, straight poker face. (Or could we call that a lawyer face?)

"Don't know, I can't see into their hearts and decipher their motives."
You can see their actions. Would you call their act a moral evil?

"Again, your logic is flawed. Pro-aborts try to justify the murder of babies by saying they are not persons and therefore killing them is not murder. A pro-lifer's response is that a baby is a person, therefore it is murder."
Yes you are following my argument very well.

"The fact that a murderer is a person doesn't prevent them from being executed for the crime they committed."
If you agree that a person should never kill another person, then that is the argument. If you want to reamend your statement to say "a person should sometimes not kill another person," maybe we should go with that . Because if you don't believe a person should ever kill another person, but prisoners can be killed, the logical step here is that you don't consider them to be persons. If this is unlogical please tell me how.


"No, the commandment says not to murder."
Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another. I'm sure the commandment didn't ask them not to kill plants or animals; so I think it is pretty clear.

"Again PIP, an answer not based on logic but on emotion."
Actually the "Image of God" argument is quite a common interpretation of this scripture--or would you blame emotion for everything I write down so you don't have to seriously respond to it?

"The fact is that God does forgive us for sins we committ but very often he leaves us to suffer the consequencs of those wrong actions."
Ah...so we are getting somewhere.

"I could forgive someone for murdering another peron, however, they must still bear the consequences for the murder."
Yes...we are agreeing...

"How many mothers have aborted their babies, been forgiven by God, but still bear the consequences of their actions in the form of guilt, psychological problems. etc."
Well according to you they should be murdered. At least zeke is consistent, here.

"I mean, why do you think God hates sin? It's because he understands how its consequences hurt us. But God is also a being of utter integrity who will not let sin go unpunished."
Yes. So how is not the permanent loss of freedom not a punishment?

"If someone robs a bank should we forgive them and just let them out of jail because we are so good hearted?"
Are you listening to one thing I'm saying?
lol and you are saying that I follow to absurd conclusions.


"The robber broke the law knowing the consequences and now the consequences must be suffered. Otherwise the law is of no effect and anarchy results."
lol anarchy has not yet arisen in the states and over 70 countries that have abolished the death penalty. In fact the states that have the death penalty have higher homicide rates than those who don't. If effectiveness is what you are going for, why not advocate for public execution? Now THAT'S how you deter people.

"God's forgiveness releases us from the penalty of sin, which is eternal separation from Him, it does not release us from the earthly consequences of out actions. "You will reap what you sow".
Yes.

"I disagree with the Catholic Church on those issues which digress from sound Biblical principles."
How about the other churches? There are more than one listed there...if you read..

"A murderer is not a victim of social injustice."
You are right. The person being murdered is.


"Here's what I say to that PIP, if God were to give us the justice we deserved, we'd all be in Hell."
That I don't think is what that quotation was about. You are asking me to take a logic class?

"None of us deserves what Christ did for us on the cross. I say, want peace? Spread the Gospel of Peace written by the Prince of Peace, who is the living Word of God without mush and with a clear contextual understanding of what is says."
True understanding of the Word is incomplete without working on behalf of others. I have been reading "Learning True Love," about a buddhist nun in Vietnam; in it she states her disapproval with this sort of philosophy:

"One time I told him, 'Even though Catholics are in the minority in our country, they take care of orphans, the elderly, and the poor. The Buddha left his palace to find ways to relieve the suffering of people. Why don't Buddhists do anything for the poor and hungry?' Thay Thanh Tu answered, 'Buddhism changes people's hearts so they can help each other in the deepest, most effective ways, even without charitable institutions.' This sounded good, but I did not feel satisfied. 'Thay,' I said, ' I want to go to the slums to provide food for the hungry and help young delinquents get into school.' He listened but said nothing."
(Her name is Sister Chan Khong- very inspirational).

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 1:13 AM


"Yes. So how is not the permanent loss of freedom not a punishment?"

Meant to say *So is the permanent loss of freedom not a punishment.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 1:23 AM


*So how...

I'm tired lol

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 1:53 AM


HisMan,
I read the One Year Bible..over and over. I am a faithful Christ follower. Want to be a doer of The Word, not just a hearer. :)

Posted by: Carla at February 2, 2008 6:45 AM


Sally,
I didn't mean to come across as snippy, so forgive me.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Please provide pictures/documentation of a person happily starving to death, and I'll shake cyber hands.

And something else that popped up: If death by starvation was not painful, ever wondered why it's not the norm for capital punishment? Any reason why it shouldn't fall under the category of "cruel and unusual punishment"?

Posted by: carder at February 2, 2008 7:50 AM


hisman, every single post you have written here has been so eloquent and thoughtful. I agree with every word. Thank you.

Posted by: Bethany at February 2, 2008 7:55 AM


Clarence,

The situation where "druggies" are concerned is that they may neither know or care if they are pregnant. Could Lauren not have realized she was pregnant? Drug abuse can distort time and perception for the abuser and also cause menstrual irregularities.

A very good friend of mine was shocked to discover she was 5 months pregnant! She had a history of gynecological problems and menstrual irregularity that resulted in pregnancy-like symptons that she had learned to ignore, since she thought she could not conceive.
By the way, she was in her mid-30s, was a medical professional, and most certainly did not abuse drugs.

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 8:11 AM


Oh Hisman,

MK has scolded me about that and I am really working hard to be nice to Hal, TR, etc.

I hope you didn't really feel scolded! I adore you!

Posted by: mk at February 2, 2008 9:22 AM


Towers has never let Lauren see her baby and, in fact, pressured her to abort, according to McAneny, which she refused - clearly demonstrating she was pro-life.
******
What a blatant lie. It demonstrated that she wanted to continue her pregnancy. Thats ALL it clearly demonstrated.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 9:54 AM


If somebody else IS willing to take total care of her..WHY won't they let him?

I'm so glad I have the parents that I do. They would never do that to me. That's real love.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 1, 2008 10:39 AM
*************************
What is 'real love' about keeping someone existing in a vegetative state in a hospital bed when you know they are never going to get any better? SHE is already dead even if they can keep the heart pumping for awhile longer. If the matter were 'left up to god' and all artificial support was removed and stopped, what would happen then?

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 9:59 AM


TR,

To begin with, we cannot be certain of what this young woman understands, thinks, or feels. As a nursing student it was carved in our foreheads to never assume a patient cannot hear or understand. My experience with comatose and unresponsive patients has proven this correct. People with fully functioning brains can be locked into useless bodies. This is certainly the case with Stephen Hawking, the British physicist and genius who cannot speak, move, feed or toilet himself. The man is completely dependent on caretakers and technology.
Its also easy to project our feelings onto others. I wouldn't want to live like that so that person shouldn't live.
This young woman has a father willing to care for her. Let him. Just as any number of brain damaged and otherwise disabled people have devoted family members to care for them.
What artificial life support are you talking about concerning Lauren? The late actor Christopher Reeve was on artificial life support, a ventilator, for 11 years. Stephen Hawking needs technology to enable him to function.
Do you have an issue with this?

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 10:19 AM


"(Mrs.)Towers has never let Lauren see her baby"

Why has NO ONE stepped up for her? This is cruel and unusual punishment beyond belief. I wonder, where is her baby?

Posted by: Janet at February 2, 2008 10:19 AM


It baffles me too. If she isn't in a persistent vegetative state, then killing her would be unconscionable. If she is, then as Doug would say, she doesn't know it, so she isn't suffering.

Which leaves, as Doug would also say, the desires of her parents to consider. One wants her dead. One wants her alive.

MK, I'm fine with a parent wanting to keep her alive. For me the real question is what she said about being kept alive in such a situation.

Posted by: Doug at February 2, 2008 10:35 AM


What artificial life support are you talking about concerning Lauren? The late actor Christopher Reeve was on artificial life support, a ventilator, for 11 years. Stephen Hawking needs technology to enable him to function.
Do you have an issue with this?
*******************
Dont even try to draw parallells. It only makes you look ridiculous. Both Reeve and Hawkins were/are fully functional mentally. Comparing them to a person in a persistant vegetative state is absurd. And pretending they 'cant really know' what kind of brain damage she has is also dishonest on your part. A CAT scan will show exactly that.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 10:49 AM


No one is trying to 'kill' her. She will be allowed to die and she isnt going to know a single soliary thing about it. She's dead. She died a long time ago. Her body just hasnt gotten the message yet because other people were interfering and not allowing the body die and join the mind.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 10:54 AM


TR,

Not necessarily. Sorry TR, but we cannot always determine a person's mental function by scanning a brain. The more we learn about the brain the less we know. My point with Stephen Hawking is, that without technology, one could easily assume he has no mental function, since he would have no way of communicating that he does. To an extent, the same was true with Christopher Reeve. This very wrong assumption has often been made with comatose, "vegetative", severely disabled, and unreponsive patients simply because they could not communicate otherwise.
We were ready to transfer a brain injured young man who was thought to be "vegetative" to a nursing home after several weeks on our surgical floor. We had to reinsert a tube through his nose to his stomach and discussed this in front of him. He distinctly said S!!!. I would too. Obviously this man heard, understood, and had a definite opinion. How can that be? We "knew" he was vegetative. He was transferred to rehab instead where he made a remarkable recovery after several months.

You still haven't told me what life support Lauren is on. It seems like she uses considerably less technology and life support systems, if any, than used by Reeve and Hawking.

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 11:14 AM


I will continue to post truthfully as best I can and in advance forgive my sometimes hard hitting comebacks. MK has scolded me about that and I am really working hard to be nice to Hal, TR, etc. I won't water down or compromise the truth, however, for the sake of being politically correct...that's disingenuous and cheap.

Posted by: HisMan at February 1, 2008 9:25 PM
++++++++++++

Amen to that, dear brother!

You are the classic example of the epitome of character.

I agree with Carla & Bethany regarding ALL of your posts. You have been a tremendous help to me and countless others. Reiterating God's word in the fashion that you do is not only inspiring, but VERY refreshing!

Thank you again and again, and may God continue to bless you with wisdom.

:)

Posted by: Sunshine at February 2, 2008 11:25 AM


Eh.

I have to say, if her dad is willing to care and love his daughter, than I think she should stay alive and custody should be given to the father. This is not to say, however, that if nobody was willing to care and love her that she should be taken out back like Old Yeller.

I don't understand why they aren't letting the father care for her and just strip the mother of parental rights as she obviously doesn't care much for her daughter anyway.

Though for the record, if I am ever in that state, I've made it abundantly clear to my parents that they are to "let me go". My parents share the same view. One of these days I'll get a living will...

And on a totally self-absorbed note: I got on the Dean's List this past semester! Scooooooore! :D 3 more semesters of school till gradumutation!

Posted by: Rae at February 2, 2008 12:00 PM


The father on Hannity and Colmes last night highlighted the fact that the PVS diagnosis has a 40% misdiagnosis.

Even today, complex technology cannot know for certain the true cognitive nature of someone.

Doctors and scientists are still learning more.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 2, 2008 12:01 PM


Mary, excellent points, as usual. I am so thankful for you!

Posted by: Bethany at February 2, 2008 1:00 PM


Bethany,

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.


Rae,

The Dean's List? Congragulations. What wonderful news.
You are wise to have a living will and make your wishes known in writing to your nearest and dearest.

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 2:09 PM


I got an 88 on my first exercise biochemistry test!

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 2:19 PM


PIP,

Well, congragulations to you as well! We certainly have some brilliant minds on this blog.
When I consider how I struggled and scraped through high school chemistry and still have to write out every number... :):)

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 2:22 PM


Score PiP! :D What is exercise biochemistry about? I have my first physics exam on Friday...a test in the first three weeks of class! UGH!

No worries Mary, I am actually AWFUL at math. I can't add simple things in my head, much less subtract, divide, or multiply in my head. It just doesn't work. My buddy Indraneel used to quiz me on math (because he's a sadist like that, lol) and he'd ask me stuff and my brain would literally go "Does Not Compute! FATAL ERROR!" :D

Oh and Mary, things are going very well lately. My medications are working splendidly, I don't worry as much anymore and I've been (on the whole) in a much better mood than previously. I've become almost optimistic at times...*shocker!*

Posted by: Rae at February 2, 2008 2:50 PM


It's basically the biochemical functions and effects during and after exercise. It's fascinating, but somewhat difficult. I've never been good at biochemistry. I barely scraped by with a B during regular biochem so an 88 on the first test ain't too bad!
I only got 1 multiple choice question wrong, but half the test was all short and long answer, so it's always hard to gauge how well you do on that...

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 3:03 PM


LOL good times with biochem and cell bio. That year was rough. In order to stay in the scholars program I had to get a B (not a B-, but a B). With those classes I had like a 79 or 80 going into the final and somehow made it up to an 84. I decided I just sucked. But getting an A in genetics was an affirmation- I don't suck at biology, just nitty gritty cell stuff that honestly isn't as interesting.

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 3:05 PM


Rae,

Thank you so much for the update. More great news. I couldn't be happier for you that things are going so well in your life in every respect.

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 3:11 PM


@PiP: I wanted to avoid Cell Biology, so I ended up being a microbiology major as that was the only biology major at the U of MN that didn't require cell biology. :-p

I hated biochemistry too, though it was probably due to the book being crappy and the professor being an ancient ex-hippie (he wasn't exactly "all there")...probably didn't help the situation.

Genetics is kinda fun though. I really like my Microbial Disease class...we discussed Anthrax on Wednesday. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Posted by: Rae at February 2, 2008 3:16 PM


PIP,

I AM impressed! When I attended school to specialize in an area of nursing, I was required to take similar courses. Thank heavens a former student gave me his lecture notes which were a work of art. The guy was a real obsessive compulsive. That's what enabled me to pass.

As a filler course we had to take biomedical electronics. ME? Please. It might as well be rocket science. One nice thing was the male instructor had quite a nice behind... anyway, well I'm not blind, anyway as I was starting to say, I scraped through, getting Ds on quizzes, etc. but with my roommate's help I wound up with a B. Don't ask me how. She got a C.

Posted by: Mary at February 2, 2008 3:21 PM


Congratulations on your grades, PIP. It sounds like you are doing wonderfully! You obviously are one smart cookie.

Posted by: Bethany at February 2, 2008 3:35 PM


Blast, I'm not supposed to be on here, but oh well.

Hisman,

"I will continue to post truthfully as best I can and in advance forgive my sometimes hard hitting comebacks."

You obviously mean well, so, if you don't mind, I'll give you one tiny piece of advice. Your tactics are often counterproductive in terms of your ulimate goal, particularly when you speak of religion. People don't "find" religion simply because someone else beats them over the head with it repeatedly; they find it through an internal process of questioning and exploration. That process is hindered, not aided, by stong-armed tactics.

Posted by: Enigma at February 2, 2008 4:21 PM


Enigma:

I don't talk religion, I speak the truth of the Bible.

And I will continue to do so as the word says this about itself, "the word of God is the sword of the Spirit".

If you think that is counter-productive take it up with Him.

Posted by: HisMan at February 2, 2008 6:00 PM


"Blast, I'm not supposed to be on here, but oh well."

Guh??

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 2, 2008 7:22 PM


BTW, Rae, I can't remember if you ever told me this or not, but if you're divulging it, what school do you go to?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 2, 2008 7:23 PM


"People don't "find" religion simply because someone else beats them over the head with it repeatedly; they find it through an internal process of questioning and exploration. That process is hindered, not aided, by stong-armed tactics."

True, thats why we leave the strong-arm tactics up to the atheists in the Soviet Union who sent 30 million people to their deaths.

Posted by: jasper at February 2, 2008 7:29 PM


Rae and PIP,

Congrats on the good news :)

Posted by: jasper at February 2, 2008 7:31 PM


@Bobby: I go to the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities campus. :D

I'm looking into microbiology graduate programs now, as I graduate spring '09 and I like getting this sort of stuff out of the way early. It's kinda tricky though, because I need to find a place with a good program that's in a place I want to be (as apparently you aren't supposed to go to graduate school where you go for your undergrad...).

So far University of Michigan-Ann Arbor has the bacterial pathogenicity labs I'd love to work in, but Midnite showed me some of the labs that University of Alabama-Birmingham has and they look pretty darn sweet (MALARIA!!!). I'm not smart enough to look at Ivy League grad programs...lol, but my buddy Indraneel has been pushin' me to look at Dartmouth because he lives out there now. :-p

@Jasper: Danke shoen! :D

Posted by: Rae at February 2, 2008 8:03 PM


Good for you, Rae. Looking for grad schools is great fun! Dartmouth is very beautiful, but it's pretty much in the middle of nowhere. If you like a rural, sparse college town, you'd probably like it out here. I think that's a great idea to be starting the process early. Good luck, my friend. Make sure to keep me updated :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 2, 2008 8:20 PM


Actually, Rae, I bet if you can get into U of M, then you can get into Dartmouth. While Dartmouth is quite good, I think U of M is more prestigious. If you're interested in Dartmouth, I would apply.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 2, 2008 8:23 PM


@Bobby: I'm used to rural stuff, I lived in South Dakota for awhile, my parents are from there so I practically grew up there considering how often I visited my grandparents. As long as I have TV and an internet connection, we're good to go! :-p

Are you on facebook?

Posted by: Rae at February 2, 2008 8:41 PM


And pretending they 'cant really know' what kind of brain damage she has is also dishonest on your part. A CAT scan will show exactly that.

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 10:49 AM

That is blatantly dishonest.
CAT scans can only show physical features. They do not determine functional ability.
Likewise you can't use CAT scans to determine intelligence or emotional maturity etc. It is simply outside the scope of the technology.

Posted by: hippie at February 2, 2008 9:06 PM


I am indeed, Rae. Search for Nicholas Scoville.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 2, 2008 9:12 PM



What is 'real love' about keeping someone existing in a vegetative state in a hospital bed when you know they are never going to get any better? SHE is already dead even if they can keep the heart pumping for awhile longer. If the matter were 'left up to god' and all artificial support was removed and stopped, what would happen then?

Posted by: TexasRed at February 2, 2008 9:59 AM

Is it really for you to pass judgement on a family that is grieved at a their loved one's suffering and imply that they don't really love the person because they want to care for her but you wouldn't?

Diversity is great till someone does something different.

She isn't on life support, her heart pumps on its own.
She is very disabled. You can't possibly comment on her mental state. PVS just describes symptoms not a cause.


Posted by: hippie at February 2, 2008 9:14 PM


Thanks guys :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 2, 2008 11:31 PM


I have to agree with hippie!

As a mother of three children, I couldn't imagine what I'd do if I was faced with a similar situation. But the facts are her body is still working on it's own which of course means that part of her brain is still functioning. Who can ever truly know if she is cognizant of her surroundings. I couldn't imagine starving my child to death, when I couldn't know if he/she is aware of what's going on. And if God wanted her dead, he would have taken her already. It's not always easy to understand why God would want to leave someone is a state like Lauren. But who are we to question him?

Posted by: MomofThree at February 3, 2008 1:27 AM


Aw I was enjoying the convo with hisman. Where did he go?

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 3, 2008 2:50 AM


HisMan,
Press on toward the mark!! Continue posting Scripture, without apology or restraint, as I believe we can only seek and find the answers in His Word. God has spoken on what He thinks of abortion. He gets the final word. :)

Posted by: Carla at February 3, 2008 6:28 AM


PIP:

PIP, I haven't forgotten you and I am certainly not ignoring you. I had to go out of town on Saturday morning and last night I was at the Superbowl Party with my two sons.

I enjoy battling, er, talking, er, bantering with you too!

Just kidding.

While you are wrong on most issues (just kdding, please calm down, you're not) I do identify a few gifts in your responses.

When you first came on the site I think about a year ago, you seemed to focus on the approval of the others. That's OK and normal. I dissappeared for a while because I was involved in a lot of business struggles that really needed my attention. However, being away, I am able to detect a definite change in you.

1. You are very, very intelligent (that hasn't changed).
2. You are more passionate about what you believe and seem to be able to take more risks with that passion.
3. You are less governed by what others think, however, there are some vestiges of that left.
4. Your pro-life positions appear to have solidified. (Now that's huge)!

God has given you the gift of passion and intellect and desire to learn. Like all gifts, they are for His glort, not our own, and properly discovered and nurtured and developed adn exercised, we thereby discover our reasons for living and life becomes a joy, It is my opinion that you would be an excellent minister of the Gospel. If truth is your goal, and I think it is, and you are open to being guided by the Holy Spirit, I believe God can take you places you have never dreamed of. The call of God is irrevocable, so, please think about it. Just ask Him to show you.

By the way, I'm going to the Superbowl (how foolish is that, however, someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse). I'll be in the end zone next to where the players come out. Maybe you'll see me on TV? Dark hair, black leather jack, all black on, next to my handsome AF pilot son (brown leaterh jacket).

Next week I hope to discuss the Flood with you, so in advance why don't you read the Biblical account 5 or 6 times, praying each time before you do so. The Bible is a spiritual Book not a text book (since it was written by the Holy Spirit), and must be read with an open heart, open mind, and spiritual eyes made open by the God Himself).

When my daughter brought home an 88 on her report card I always told her that was very, very good. I also told her that good is the enemy of best so next time bring home a 95. You CAN do it.

Do you kow what separates the NY Giants and NE Patriots from the rest of the teams that didn't make the Superbowl? Not very much. The other teams were good but not the best. You go girl.

Hippie:

God is the difference. Is this Lauren truly in a vegetative state?

Carla:

You're too, too kind.

Rae:

Phoenix has some sort of GenTech program associated witt the U of A. It's supposed to be state of the art. Look into it. Let me know what you find out or, if you'd like I can find out for you.

Posted by: HisMan at February 3, 2008 11:26 AM


Wow...thanks HisMan.

And I can definitely agree with you on this:

The Bible is a spiritual Book not a text book (since it was written by the Holy Spirit), and must be read with an open heart, open mind, and spiritual eyes made open by the God Himself).

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 3, 2008 11:41 AM


@HisMan: Thank you very much for the offer, but I'm not looking to go to the west coast. It's too different from the Midwest-East Coast that I'm used to. I prefer to go to a midwest school if I can find one, hence the reason I'm really lookin' at U-Mich and U of WI-Madison and U of Iowa.

Again, danke shoen, 'tis kind of you to offer. ^_^

Posted by: Rae at February 3, 2008 6:52 PM


Hisman, that was an excellent post about PIP, and I completely agree! I especially agree with the part about her pro-life stance solidifying. You are absolutely right about that, and I am thankful every time I see her fighting for the life of the unborn, especially when I remember how she used to be on the other side of the battle. :)

PIP, I am so thankful for you, Samantha, and Rae. Without you all to show me that people can change, I might have given up posting here a long time ago.

Posted by: Bethany at February 3, 2008 8:40 PM


HisMan,

Having seen that SuperBowl game..I'm pretty jealous of you for actually getting to be there. I am NOT interested in sports in any respect but I watched the game and it was one of the GREATEST (of the few) games *I've* ever seen. I hope you had a blast.

Posted by: Elizabeth at February 3, 2008 10:49 PM


Aw Bethany thank you :) Thank YOU for helping me see the light.

I hope you were not too offended about our exchange earlier, that is just a very passionate topic for me :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at February 3, 2008 10:59 PM


I guess I haven't been around long enough to realize that some here were once prochoice and now are prolife. The Truth does penetrate all of the lies.
I am very grateful to God for you PIP, Samantha and Rae!!! Are there any I am missing?

Posted by: Carla at February 4, 2008 6:13 AM


PIP, don't worry, I'm not offended. And I would say the same to you. I don't want you to get offended with me. I get very passionate about it as well, and if I say anything that personally offends you, let me know and we can just stop discussing it or I'll try to find a better way to express myself. :)

Posted by: Bethany at February 4, 2008 2:38 PM


I guess I haven't been around long enough to realize that some here were once prochoice and now are prolife. The Truth does penetrate all of the lies.
I am very grateful to God for you PIP, Samantha and Rae!!! Are there any I am missing?

Carla, yes it is so very exciting. And I don't know if there are any more, but I have a feeling that there are many behind the scenes who have crossed over. You can read the conversion stories for Samantha and PIP here:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/05/conversion_stor_1.html
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/04/convert_stories.html

Posted by: Bethany at February 4, 2008 2:43 PM


Hey Bethany - that's cool to see those old posts.

I really don't disagree with PIP - if we didn't need abortion then it wouldn't be the big deal it is. If society changed enough that women didn't want abortions, then Pro-Choicers would be satisfied, in the first place.
......

I think that Samantha found what is best for her, and she and PIP both write kick-butt posts.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at February 4, 2008 5:00 PM