You may have read a February 23 Associated Press story about Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Missouri's epiphany....

Suddenly late last week PP decided it wanted to cooperate with a grand jury investigation it had stone-walled from the get-go.

Suddenly its attorney said, according to the AP, "We want to turn over the information," that being medical records the grand jury had subpoenaed 6 weeks prior to determine whether PP broke several laws. At that time PP immediately filed a motion to halt the subpoena.

Smell a rat? Here's one: the grand jury's ill-advising special counsel, Larry McClain, who okd terms with PP by which it would honor the subpoena.

And here's another, the Democrat judge overseeing the case, Kevin Moriarty, who asked McClain (who he appointed) to work with PP on a "compromise" on the subpoena dilemma in the 1st place.

Apparently the terms sucked, because DA Phill Kline nixed them. I'd be interested to laugh at those terms.

In the real legal world, when a grand jury issues subpoenas the entity being investigated either complies or gets thrown in the slammer and its records seized.

In the real world, there are ways to determine if laws are broken.

There are laws in KS against aborting late-term mothers not in the throes of death, against not reporting child rape, against selling aborted baby parts, against falsifying records, against aborting minors without parents knowing, and against ignoring the 24-hour waiting period.

But abortion brings with it super duper legal exceptions. There is no right to investigate higher than the right to abort. An abortionist has the right to break the law if s/he’s committing an abortion, as does the mother. The abortionist's attorney has the right to agree to terms of the abortionist's subpoena if anyone dares to snoop.

Predictions

Prediction #1: The 90-day KS grand jury investigating for illegal activity will expire March 9 having gotten nowhere because PP simply refused to cooperate. That's the plan, to beat off the clock.

Prediction #2: Moriarty will not extend the grand jury's time.

Prediction #3: PP will issue a statement that it has been exonerated.

[HT: American Papist]

From the post:

"In the real legal world, when a grand jury issues subpoenas the entity being investigated either complies or gets thrown in the slammer and its records seized."

Um....actually, in the real legal world, there are these little things called "privileges" that protect certain types of information and documents from being produced, no matter who issues the subpoenas. I would hazard a guess that's what the hold up is. Kline is asking for privileged information, and PP is properly refusing to produce it without restrictions.

Prediction #1: The 90-day KS grand jury investigating for illegal activity will expire March 10 having gotten nowhere because PP simply refused to cooperate.

Interestingly, March 10 is Abortion Provider Appreciation Day.

What better way to show appreciation for the biggest abortion provider in the land than by letting them off the hook?

Um....actually, in the real legal world, there are these little things called "privileges" that protect certain types of information and documents from being produced, no matter who issues the subpoenas. I would hazard a guess that's what the hold up is. Kline is asking for privileged information, and PP is properly refusing to produce it without restrictions.

Posted by: Hieronymous at February 25, 2008 3:52 PM

Ummm..Actually, if the OB/GYN, dermatologist, clinic or dental office I was going to was under investigation for illegal activities, I would be in 100% support of the clinic/office having to turn over patient records to ensure that there can be a full and complete investigation.

Gee Sandy, and then you and the OB/GYN, dermatologist, clinic or dental office you worked for would be legally liable to the patients whose privacy rights you violated, 'cause guess what? It's their privilege to waive, not yours.

Ok, I mis-read your post. You were stating your opinion from a patients perspective. My point still stands though. The privilege belongs to each individual patient, not to the clinic. And I'm guessing that most patients don't want their private medical histories entered into the public record.

Hieronymous -

Medical records get released all the time. How do you think the feds catch the doctor that writes bogus prescriptions? or the doctor that charges for services that weren't provided, or the doctor that misdiagnosed a patient.

As long as the patients identifying information is removed the file can be legally sent to be inspected by proper authorities. If a law has been found to be broken and the file needs to be identified (as in the case of getting prescriptions that aren't needed) it then goes back to the judge to decide.

The supenea states that no identification will ever be needed, thereby protecting the patients medical records.

The records themselves are not private - it is who the medicall records belongs to is what is private. When you sign the patients rights paperwork at the hospital and/or doctors office read it all the way through. You will be surprised at how "intrepretation" comes into play. Gotta love lawyers.

Ok, I mis-read your post. You were stating your opinion from a patients perspective. My point still stands though. The privilege belongs to each individual patient, not to the clinic. And I'm guessing that most patients don't want their private medical histories entered into the public record.

Posted by: Hieronymous at February 25, 2008 5:38 PM

First, thanks to Valerie for always having accurate information to support the discussion.
Love you by the way:)

H:
If you were a patient at a clinic who was under investigation of illeal activities you can not honestly say you would not want them to be investigated to the fullest extent.

What if the dentist you were seeing was being charged for using his own illegal concoction of filling material for cavities, or overcharging patients, or using too much nitous oxide on patients, or not hiring qualified licensed dental assistants, or not prescribing the accurate amount of pain killers after a root canal that could kill someone, or not autocalving his instruments between patients, or extracting teeth that didn't need to be pulled, or putting braces on people who really didn't need braces, or selling overnight retainers because he misdiagnosed patients with TMJ who didn't have the condition, or killed a patient because he misdiagnosed a tooth infection, or didn't take accurate medical information on a new patient and didn't know they were a hemophiliac, or didn't know they had a heart murmur and didn't prescribe antibiotics after routine cleaning.

Would you not for the safety of the patients (you included), support an investigation that would require the medical records of patients?

Shouldn't you agree that the ADA support this invesigation to the fullest to get this guy out of business? (notice I didn't say practice)

If you said no, you would be lying.

Sandy, what you are talking about is something entirely different. Kline is, in fact, seeking identifying information about patients, and he is seeking their personal medical records.

None of the examples that you used are even near to being accurate analogies. Billing records are one thing. Personal medical histories are another, and PP is appropriately attempting to protect those records to the extent possible. It is Kline who is overreaching. He's on a fishing expedition, hoping that if he gets whole medical files that he'll eventually find something to nail them with. Fishing expeditions are not allowed, even by subpoena.

Sandy, what you are talking about is something entirely different. Kline is, in fact, seeking identifying information about patients, and he is seeking their personal medical records.

Billing records are one thing. Personal medical histories are another,
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 25, 2008 7:30 PM

H:
I AM talking about patient medical records. Read my post again. I give examples of faulty patient histories, wrong diagnosis, unsanitary conditions, missuse and misprescribed narcotics etc..... see where I am going??

Yes, Sandy, I see where you're going. You're providing a laundry list of "examples" as a red herring to distract from the fact that what Kline is seeking is a fishing expedition through personal medical files without any real basis.

None of those examples have ANYTHING to do with what Kline is seeking, or why he is seeking it.

He is seeking personal medical histories, with identifying information, for his OWN purposes. He's after Tiller as a personal vendetta. What he is doing is unethical and he should get booted from this job just like he got booted from his last job.

He is seeking personal medical histories, with identifying information, for his OWN purposes. Posted by: Hieronymous at February 25, 2008 8:26 PM

His own purposes?? Why would he want personal information on patients, to call them up and ask them out for dinner and a movie? Gimme a break.

Yes, Sandy, I see where you're going. You're providing a laundry list of "examples" as a red herring to distract from the fact that what Kline is seeking is a fishing expedition through personal medical files without any real basis.
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 25, 2008 8:26 PM

No real basis? Have you not been following the story? You need to get current with the facts H.
There is plenty of reason for this clinic and clinics like them to be investigated. You are just afraid of the real truth.

H:
PS
"There are laws in KS against aborting late-term mothers not in the throes of death, against not reporting child rape, against selling aborted baby parts, against falsifying records, against aborting minors without parents knowing, and against ignoring the 24-hour waiting period."

None of these illegal activities have anything to do with billing records which he probably doesn't keep since I am sure he works on an up front cash only basis.

Whatever you say Sandy.

Hieronymous -

What does Tiller have to do with Planned Parenthood medical records? Tiller is his own practice seperate from Planned Parenthood.

Kline is NOT seeking identifying information. All he wants is age, proof of parental notification, proper procedures before, during, and after procedure and prood of gestational age. No where is there is he seeking identifying information. He is not asking for names, phone number or address. The only way anyone, including the grand jury, will know whose medical records is whose is if the patient themselves come forward and ID who the are.

Give me a sec and I will show you court documentation of something just like this.......It will show that the patients records were legally obtained with no personal information.

Here it is:

This is the investigation of ex-abortionist Mi Kim. Here you will see that the DHP (Department of Health Professions) investigatior obtained medical records, went through them and documented errors is record keeping and in treatments, lack of treatment and inadequate testings done.

www.dhp.virginia.gov/Notices/Medicine/0101023297/0101023297Order05182007.pdf

And here is another one on Mi Kim that shows the court went through another patients medical records to show medical neglect.

www.dhp.virginia.gov/Notices/Medicine/0101023297/0101023297Notice12181998.pdf

You will note that the patients names are not available and they are only identified as Patients A - P.

Sandy -

"First, thanks to Valerie for always having accurate information to support the discussion.
Love you by the way:)"

Thanks! Love ya too!

;-)

Again, the Virginia case has NOTHING to do with what Kline is doing or what he is seeking. Kline is on a fishing expedition, and he is seeking to go well outside the boundaries of what is acceptable for discovery.

Kline is on a "fishing expedition?

I'd sure like for someone to explain that one and back it up with facts.

While we're waiting, let's review some facts:

1) Kline already filed 107 criminal counts based on just 29 REDACTED patient files (with NO patient IDs).

2) The grand jury is NOT being run by Phill Kline. It's being run by a special counsel hired by the grand jury. Kline only gets involved when the grand jury asks him to intervene, as happened when Planned Parenthood refused to comply with the one and only subpoena issued in the investigation thus far.

3) Any claim that identities are being sought is pure rot. Prove it or shut up. Name a single person who has been identified thus far during the 5+ long years of intense media scrutiny on Kline's investigation. What's that? You can't? I thought not.

4) What's up with Planned Parenthood's delay of 51 days, and STILL refusing to comply with the grand jury's one and only subpoena? What on EARTH are they afraid of if they haven't done anything wrong?

Hieronymous -

Really? Then why are the records being handed over? Why isn't Kline being investigated? Why isn't the governor, the same woman who is protecting PP, out getting him fired if this were the case?

The VA case has EVERYTHING to do with what is going on in Kansas. You said "there are these little things called "privileges" that protect certain types of information and documents from being produced, no matter who issues the subpoenas. " and I provided documented proof that you were wrong. Medical records can be obtained and reveiwed.

Because what he is doing is 100% legal. He is not doing anything out of his limits as a district attorney.

Also, Kline was elected out of office based on lies from Morrison (the man who was elected to take Klines job). Morrison said Kline was going on a witch hunt and he had nothing on Tiller and PP. However, when Morrison reviewed all the records he had to admit he was wrong and that Kline did have reason to investigate which is why he was forced to file 30 charges against Tiller. Morrison is no longer in his position because of a sexual harrassment lawsuit from a woman who worked with Kline. Morrison is also on record saying that he regularity obtains medical records to prosecute crimes. Imagine that?

PP = maybe not perfect, but a lot better than CPCs.

http://tinyurl.com/2lndby

Maybe we should gather as many pro-lifers from across the country as we can and pay them a visit in Kansas. We could have a nice little rally outside Tiller's clinic.

PP = maybe not perfect, but a lot better than CPCs.

http://tinyurl.com/2lndby

Posted by: Pap Taylor Gang at February 26, 2008 1:04 AM

WOW, you've really got to be wary of that dogma at the CPC's, 'cause it can actually make you feel guilty about what you're doing to your baby. That's just not right!!! And they are so biased, they actually tell you you have an alternative to abortion!! How rude. And they want to help you adopt, the nerve! And those doctors are all real nice, because they care so much more about YOU than that baby inside of you. CPC's want you to take responsibility for your baby. That's so unreasonable! I just love Planned Parenthood because they don't care about the babies, they care about YOU!

By the way, the sympto-thermal method of tracking fertile/non-fertile times in a woman's cycle
is extremely easy and effective. The doctor quoted in the story has obviously not studied it or tried it herself. I tried for a year to get pregnant. No luck, until I started the sympto-thermal method. We got pregnant after the first month. It works.

Pap Taylor Gang -

Thanks for the laugh! I really needed it.

Let's see, from the article you posted:

"Abortion opponents are running thousands of centers, called crisis pregnancy centers � dispensing everything from baby clothes to free ultrasound pictures to prayer. "

How dare they! give out baby clothes! They must be monsters!

Read the article again.

1. the woman is whinning about going into the "faith based pregnancy center" which is NOT and NEVER has been legit CPC.

2. The woman whinning got an abortion. She was not prevented in anyway from doing that now was she?

3. You will note that they mention birthline in the article: "One client at Birthline didn't want to be named but said the center was wonderful. She said the people there were loving and helped her through her unexpected pregnancy."

4. The two real CPC's mentioned in the article are giving a glowing review. hmmmmm?

Heartbeat International is the largest organization of pregnancy resource centers in the world. They advertise themselves as "abortion alternatives" and the people running the ultra sound machines must be properly trained. (Something PP cannot provide proof that they do.) and all there brochures and information has been reviewed by medical professionals for accuracy.

CareNet is the largest organization of pregnancy resource centers in North America. They also advertise as "Abortion Alternative" and also have properly trained personel. There education program was influenced by former U.S. Surgeon General Dr. C. Everett Koop.

Birthline is another big pregnancy resource center and they are up front that they do not refer or do abortions.

All of these centers provide the mother with help. Food, clothes, place to live if needed, help get financial aid for medical care during and after birth. They provide the baby with clothes, diapers and formula if needed. And also assiste the mother in getting financial aid for an education and housing.

Yep, what a horrible organization they are.

The "faith based pregnancy center" is rare and the article you posted even said that.

Tell me, does PP do all of that? Do they provide all that care to the women who actually choose to go through with the pregnancy or do they refer them for prenatal care with no help for financial assistance and abandon them to deal with the pregnancy by themselves? They cannot even list how many adoption referrals they do anymore in their yearly reports. The firt 2 pregnancy resouce centers have their own legal adoption centers.

So, do you really think PP does more for a woman in a crisis pregnancy than a CPC?

Do CPC's offer abortion? Cause that's what some women want.

Hal -

Why would a woman who wants an abortion go to a place that advertises "abortion alternative"? or why would a woman who would consider an abortion go to a place that advertises "abortion alternative"?

Stop believing that women are so stupid that they cannot even figure out these things. If you will note, as I stated before, in the article posted by Pap Taylor Gang the woman who went into the faith based pregnancy center was able to leave the building, go to her car and drive herself to the clinic of her choice and abort her baby. See? Woman have brains and can figure these things out.

It is really offensive that people such as yourself believe us to be so ignorant that we can't even walk out of a building.

Hal -

Another thought: Do the Pro-choicers give a second thought to the woman who goes to planned parenthood wanting to keep the baby but isn't given the appropriate information on how to obtain help? I have been checking the websites on some PP in different states. And combining that with their yearly report, I would estimate that around 10% of PP actually do prenatal care. The others just refer to other doctors. I haven't found one PP website that refers to the county or state health departments. That is where a woman can go for financial aid and to get signed up for medical aid.

Or do you only care that a place that advertises that they don't do abortion nor refer to them doesn't help a woman who wants an abortion?

Have you never heard of the world-famous Pap Taylor Dancers?